BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Far East Island => Topic started by: Broose on November 15, 2012, 05:49:35 AM
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To keep discussion in the right place.
Sorraine is about to declare war on Ohnar West, for those who haven't heard. Meanwhile, a lord from Ohnar just switched over to Arcaea's new colony, Coralynth.
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Oh man, I've been waiting for this opportunity for years.
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Yes. Yes, you have. I still remember your tirades to Velax about the useless, unreliable Ohnarians sabotaging the war effort against Arcachon, while it was you yourself who was doing the sabotage. Bastard. :P
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Me? Why, I never!
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Oh man, I've been waiting for this opportunity for years.
FEI needs more little realms and less blobs like Arcaea and Kindara 8)
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FEI needs more little realms and less blobs like Arcaea and Kindara 8)
Kindara isn't much of a blob, it's pretty equal to Cathay and PoZ. Anyway, I agree with you but FEI isn't really build for tons of realms with the large regions and relatively small number of cities.
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FEI needs more little realms and less blobs like Arcaea and Kindara
Cathay and Kindara have the same number of regions now. And if Sorraine kills off Ohnar West, then you've added Sorraine to the list of blobs. Their region count is already only two off from ours and folding any new regions into their realm would either equal us or surpass us making them the second largest realm by region count.
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I remember from Lasanar's days that its cities, and most Northern cities with the exception of Topenah and Remton, were a good 15-20% poorer than the great southern cities. I still remember the first time we were thinking about war with Antoza and I looked at Anacan and went 'wtfbbq' and from that day on, Galiard became a warhawk.
Ozrat and Ossaet are two of the poorest cities on the continent. Akanos is pretty decent and Sasrhas seems to have been bumped up since the days of Duke Iceberg Slim.
My predictions are that Sorraine will over-play its hand, though perhaps not for a while, and that Arcaea will have a hard time keeping Coralynth as loyal as it would like.
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Honestly I'm not a fan of the current OW, but Sorraine and Coralynth declaring war on us is utter bull!@#$. They have zero reason for war, that is zero solid reason that isn't out-of-the-blue. I remember when rulers were enforced by the honor code to only declare war if they had a worthy explanation for their hostility. Now it's just on a whim. Uhg. I know it's BATTLEmaster but some player's don't seem to know the limits of what's fun and acceptable.
My little rant. I'm done. Come to Sasrhas so I can stab you a couple dozen times.
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I remember when rulers were enforced by the honor code to only declare war if they had a worthy explanation for their hostility.
Enforced by whom? 'the honor code' is hardly chiseled into a stone tablet, and even when it is, political reality and chivalry rarely go together. Ohnar did screw up in letting Melehan sell food to Kindara. 'The honor code' could very easily be read to say that the realm should banish him. That has nothing to do with Sorraine but it reinforced the long-held idea of Ohnar West as a nest of vipers, even if Ingall has done a surprisingly good job in earning some goodwill.
I also haven't heard any realm accept Sorraine's casus bellus as legitimate. Sorraine is making a considerable gamble in banking on nobody caring enough about Ohnar to do anything about it. The question is whether Ohnar can capitalize on that in a meaningful way.
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There IS a honor code, but such things need to be enforced by Realms / Nobility. Sorraine is pretty honest about just wanting Ohnar West's lands and they are banking on Ohnar West's reputation being bad enough to be able to get away with it. And they found the reason to actually go after OW with Melehan's letter.
Time will tell, but Ohnar West needs to do some serious diplomacy.
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Honestly I'm not a fan of the current OW, but Sorraine and Coralynth declaring war on us is utter bull!@#$. They have zero reason for war, that is zero solid reason that isn't out-of-the-blue. I remember when rulers were enforced by the honor code to only declare war if they had a worthy explanation for their hostility. Now it's just on a whim. Uhg. I know it's BATTLEmaster but some player's don't seem to know the limits of what's fun and acceptable.
My little rant. I'm done. Come to Sasrhas so I can stab you a couple dozen times.
You're bringing an in-game issue out of the game. Everyone knows the reason for war is flimsy, but Mathilda thinks she can get away with it.
There's at least one realm that already wants to invade Sorraine. Instead of complaining on the forums, you could get them on your side.
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Did Mathilda mention anything about the Way of the Dragon's followers attacking Sartanian priests? That's another reason that was mentioned.
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Actually, he's talking about a not-really-ever-enforced rule that was in place back when the FEI was first opened, when it was still officially considered a "roleplay continent."
The idea was to make sure that, among other things, people didn't declare war just for game-mechanic reasons or "because we (the players) want to have some fun".
Like the rest of the "RP continent" trappings, it was abandoned because enforcement would be difficult at best, and would, effectively, require a "roleplay council" sitting in judgement over the RP lines of everyone on the continent.
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I think Sorraine's reason for going to war is perfectly legitimate. An Ohnarian betrayed the Northern Alliance and sabotaged the war effort against Kindara, and when discovered, the ruler refused to punish him adequately. I don't think Ohnar deserve to get destroyed for it, but wars have been started over much less.
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FEI needs more little realms and less blobs like Arcaea and Kindara 8)
As one of the people who designed FEI, I don't know that this was ever really the intent. In the beginning, there were two realms. City populations (and thus incomes) were kept low to discourage players motivated by that sort of thing. Many small realms can work, but they at least need the ability to build things and arm themselves. There's also a question of a diluted talent pool. Let's say you have 11 realms. That's potentially 44 councilors on an island with ~200 nobles. Almost a quarter of the characters would be councilors. That's a difficult level of competence and activity to maintain, even during BM's halcyon days.
I completely share the sentiment of smaller realms with more engaged characters, but it doesn't always work out in practice. If it could be done anywhere, it'd be Dwilight.
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I think Sorraine's reason for going to war is perfectly legitimate.
Melehan isn't their reason. Mathilda admitted that the only reason they weren't already at war was because of the Kindaran conflict, that Sorraine just thinks Ohnar deserves to be destroyed, and that's that.
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I completely share the sentiment of smaller realms with more engaged characters, but it doesn't always work out in practice. If it could be done anywhere, it'd be Dwilight.
Well, the scale of Dwilight, and too a less extent, AT or BT, means that realms can be big, because there will be many other realms as well, so the continent as a whole will be dynamic. When you have a small continent with many big realms, things tend to be static.
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Melehan isn't their reason. Mathilda admitted that the only reason they weren't already at war was because of the Kindaran conflict, that Sorraine just thinks Ohnar deserves to be destroyed, and that's that.
Melehan isn't HER reason, you mean. My character, who is the Crown Prince, and therefore the second most powerful person in Sorraine, wants to fight because of Ohnar West selling food to Kindara. And since I have control of the military, that's the reason for the military going in.
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. My character, who is the Crown Prince, and therefore the second most powerful person in Sorraine, wants to fight because of Ohnar West selling food to Kindara. And since I have control of the military, that's the reason for the military going in.
The trouble with that (and the reason why Mathilda probably didn't bank more on it when she told everyone about the war) is that it suggests that, if Ohnar banned Melehan, Sorraine would end the war.
Melehan is a good excuse for war, he's just not a good excuse for conquest.
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Melehan is a good excuse for war, he's just not a good excuse for conquest.
Heh, needing excuses for conquest.
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The problem isn't the war but the fact that the large realms see the need to gang bang the smallest realm on the island. I mean OW controls 4 regions. If you want to have a war with OW fine but at least make it somewhat fun for everyone not just lets just all attack OW because they are the weakest and we have nothing better to do.
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The problem isn't the war but the fact that the large realms see the need to gang bang the smallest realm on the island
It's war. Not dodgeball.
You can drop any pretense of roleplaying but for much of the island and the rulers who at least keep up nominal appearances at caring about it, what matters is how nobles act and what they say, not whether war is 'fair.
It has already been pointed out that Ohnar West has an avenue out of this. It remains to be seen whether they'll be able to take it. The surest way for them to fail to take it would be to use words like 'gang bang' or act like they're down a man on the pitch and could we please get even teams.
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It's war. Not dodgeball.
You can drop any pretense of roleplaying but for much of the island and the rulers who at least keep up nominal appearances at caring about it, what matters is how nobles act and what they say, not whether war is 'fair.
It has already been pointed out that Ohnar West has an avenue out of this. It remains to be seen whether they'll be able to take it. The surest way for them to fail to take it would be to use words like 'gang bang' or act like they're down a man on the pitch and could we please get even teams.
Scarlett any war with any realm would not be fair with the way OW sits now but at least make it some what fun. Lets break it down we have Coryalynth at war with us but we cant attack them because Arcea is going to send troops to reinforce their lands so we cant. Sorraine surrounds our entire realm. Sorraine has triple the resources OW in every category besides food. Now lets see what OW has we have 4 regions that are among the poorest region on the map. the resources we do receive is almost laughable.
So Scarlette do I expect a fair fight no but I at least expect other players to to make the war a little bit fun rather then steam rolling over people.
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For the record, Sorraine did not, so far as I know, ask Coralynth to join the war. I had no idea they were thinking about it. Sorraine made the decision to go to war on its own, deliberately not seeking the aide of allies. Coralynths action was a surprise to me.
Also, the behavior of OW during the war (selling food to Kindara) makes for an excellent reason for conquest. We will remove their ability to betray us in the same manner again.
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For the record, Sorraine did not, so far as I know, ask Coralynth to join the war. I had no idea they were thinking about it. Sorraine made the decision to go to war on its own, deliberately not seeking the aide of allies. Coralynths action was a surprise to me.
Also, the behavior of OW during the war (selling food to Kindara) makes for an excellent reason for conquest. We will remove their ability to betray us in the same manner again.
LOL one nobles sells food to another realm and it some how goes to OW betraying everyone. Its not a big deal I just wanted to make a war more fun then just having everyone hop on lets gang bang OW train.
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Scarlett any war with any realm would not be fair with the way OW sits now but at least make it some what fun
You don't want to 'make the war more fun.' You want to have a sporting chance because you are looking at it like a sport. You want to measure Ohnar West's ability to send 6,000 or 8,000 or 10,000 CS somewhere against Sorraine's ability to do the same. This is well and good but it has nothing at all to do with why realms go to war.
If you look at wars on the FEI as 'gang bangs' or the 'let's gang up on OW' train then you are purposefully blinding yourself to the reasons and motivations that cause these wars. Medieval politics are local and personal. Arcachon didn't just fight a war with Arcaea -- they insulted Arcaeans every chance they got. They made it as difficult as possible for Arcaea to conquer the Dark Isle even well after it became clear that they had no hope of winning. Their mission was to make life for King Velax as unpleasant as possible. So it is no surprise to me that three quarters of what anybody thinks about Ohnar West is made up of leftover grudges against Arcachon nobles.
I'm not saying that I envy the hand dealt to Ingall in all this but Cathay started the last war with a smaller army than either Zonasa or Kindara when our nearest and only guaranteed ally had a 10-day turnaround time for a refit due to the distances involved. We didn't out-resource either Zonasa or Kindara and at best we fought them to a draw on the field. The one resource that isn't measured in a number on the realm info page is 'friends and favors' and if Ingall is savvy and Ohnar lets him do his job, he ought to at least be able to make a go of it. Or, barring that, at least deny Sorraine victory through a couple creative alternatives.
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You don't want to 'make the war more fun.' You want to have a sporting chance because you are looking at it like a sport. You want to measure Ohnar West's ability to send 6,000 or 8,000 or 10,000 CS somewhere against Sorraine's ability to do the same. This is well and good but it has nothing at all to do with why realms go to war.
If you look at wars on the FEI as 'gang bangs' or the 'let's gang up on OW' train then you are purposefully blinding yourself to the reasons and motivations that cause these wars. Medieval politics are local and personal. Arcachon didn't just fight a war with Arcaea -- they insulted Arcaeans every chance they got. They made it as difficult as possible for Arcaea to conquer the Dark Isle even well after it became clear that they had no hope of winning. Their mission was to make life for King Velax as unpleasant as possible. So it is no surprise to me that three quarters of what anybody thinks about Ohnar West is made up of leftover grudges against Arcachon nobles.
I'm not saying that I envy the hand dealt to Ingall in all this but Cathay started the last war with a smaller army than either Zonasa or Kindara when our nearest and only guaranteed ally had a 10-day turnaround time for a refit due to the distances involved. We didn't out-resource either Zonasa or Kindara and at best we fought them to a draw on the field. The one resource that isn't measured in a number on the realm info page is 'friends and favors' and if Ingall is savvy and Ohnar lets him do his job, he ought to at least be able to make a go of it. Or, barring that, at least deny Sorraine victory through a couple creative alternatives.
Y'know, I may not always agree with you, but this is one of the best statements of the sensible side of the "gangbang" issue I've seen (particularly the first paragraph).
Well said.
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For the record, Sorraine did not, so far as I know, ask Coralynth to join the war. I had no idea they were thinking about it. Sorraine made the decision to go to war on its own, deliberately not seeking the aide of allies. Coralynths action was a surprise to me.
Also, the behavior of OW during the war (selling food to Kindara) makes for an excellent reason for conquest. We will remove their ability to betray us in the same manner again.
Yep, it was never my plan for Coralynth to get pulled into it, though Ingall seems to think we were in coordination during the days leading up to the war.
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Ingall has the worst job in the Far East. Cut the guy some slack. :)
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To be honest, given that Battlemaster involves battles, there is a serious existential question that realms too small to go to war have to answer.
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I would start with the more literal question of 'how do I stop being a small realm?'
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Yes; *can* I realistically stop being a small realm, too.
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Take your chances. Join the losing side! >:D
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Lets break it down we have Coryalynth at war with us but we cant attack them because Arcea is going to send troops to reinforce their lands so we cant. Sorraine surrounds our entire realm. Sorraine has triple the resources OW in every category besides food. Now lets see what OW has we have 4 regions that are among the poorest region on the map. the resources we do receive is almost laughable.
I would be at least mildly grateful that Arcaea isn't going to attack you. As it stands, you have a chance. Small, perhaps, but a chance. If Arcaea got involved fully, you would not, and it would likely dissuade the only realm you have a hope of convincing to join you to not do so.
Ohnar has brought this on itself. Since the former Arcachonians took over, Ohnar has done everything it could to make itself seem unreliable and untrustworthy. Callandor pissing off Arcaea and Toupellon by trying to play them against each other, Me'hoe acting like an utter twat on the rulers channel, Me'hoe attempting to play both sides of the north/south divide, as well as Ohnar giving all its positions to disreputable nobles like the McGahees and the Rhentronies. Ingall had actually done a little to improve Ohnar's standing, and Velax was even thinking perhaps he wouldn't destroy Ohnar West after all, but then Lefanis goes and screws it all up and reminds Velax exactly why the former Arcachonians can't be trusted.
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LOL one nobles sells food to another realm and it some how goes to OW betraying everyone.
Of course.
Melehan selling food to Kindara shows that Ohnar West supported Kindara in the war, and sought to undermine and oppose the alliance. At the same time, Melehan was using the food sales to try and garner favor to spread the Way of the Dragon into the south. And the Way of the Dragon and Sartan mutually consider wach other as evil. And Ohnar West is the founding realm of WotD.
That's how politics works. And if you were on the other side of it, you'd be claiming the same thing.
So no, there's no gang banging here. It's a lot of mistakes and indiscretions by OW. You have a very bad rep, and do little or nothing to fix it.
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It is also worth pointing out that Ohnar wasn't always a small realm. When I joined it was much larger. Obviously the creation of Toupellon and then Sorraine have had big parts in the current size of Ohnar. My points are that politics naturally ebb and flow, and that the idea that weakness should be heralded because of its "underdog" nature is far from a medieval point of view. If you were a small kingdom, you were likely to be the punching bags of much larger ones unless you had serious friends for protection. If Ohnar can't make those friends, or turn them into allies, something else will naturally take its place.
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So I'm really the only one in OW who saw this coming and thinks it's perfectly natural and makes complete sense? Come on! Half of the troublemakers of FEI are there, we have no strenght to protect us from bullies and the most similar thing to a friend we have in the continent are the granaries's NPCs. It has not surprised me, in fact I am still not believing we have survived so far. So take up your swords, Ohnarians, and let's die honorably while cursing and killing our enemies!
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Arcachon didn't just fight a war with Arcaea -- they insulted Arcaeans every chance they got. They made it as difficult as possible for Arcaea to conquer the Dark Isle even well after it became clear that they had no hope of winning. Their mission was to make life for King Velax as unpleasant as possible. So it is no surprise to me that three quarters of what anybody thinks about Ohnar West is made up of leftover grudges against Arcachon nobles.
Never gets old, does it. The Arcachonians refused to roll over and die, when another realm decided to take all their cookies, despite having assured them otherwise. Makes me wonder which nobles really ought to be holding grudges.
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I would start with the more literal question of 'how do I stop being a small realm?'
Unfortunately, past few months for Ohnar have been- "How can I survive being gobbled up by my neighbours", and "how can I stop myself from becoming even smaller".
I think Sorraine's reason for going to war is perfectly legitimate.
Legitimate enough to justify breaking alliance with the ally who was supposedly betrayed.
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Cathay and Sorraine have no formal alliance, chiefly because Galiard never wanted an on-paper agreement with Caspius. They allied when Caspius declared for Cathay during the Kindaran war and there is considerable goodwill between the two realms, but there is also considerable skepticism, because Cathay was re-founded by everybody in Toupellon who wanted nothing to do with a Sartanist theocracy.
So it's a complicated relationship. Most individual nobles in Sorraine get along with most individual nobles in Cathay. But formal interactions between the Crown of Cathay and the Church of Sartan are dicey because Galiard doesn't even like having a Church addressing a King as any kind of equal in power.
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because Cathay was re-founded by everybody in Toupellon who wanted nothing to do with a Sartanist theocracy.
also William
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Unfortunately, past few months for Ohnar have been- "How can I survive being gobbled up by my neighbours", and "how can I stop myself from becoming even smaller".
From what I understand, this is mostly because of the terrible reputation Ohnar West garnered while they were bigger (and then did absolutely nothing to attempt to dispel once they weren't bigger anymore).
However, my understanding is second-hand at best :)
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also William
And also William. :)
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From what I understand, this is mostly because of the terrible reputation Ohnar West garnered while they were bigger (and then did absolutely nothing to attempt to dispel once they weren't bigger anymore).
Environmental determinism is out of vogue in reality, but I'm a firm believer of it in BM. Ohnar West, like the multitude of realms that resembled it on EC, is cursed with terrible geography. They were always going to be at a disadvantage.
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I think it's actually more of a brand problem than a geography problem.
Ohnar came about after Lasanar collapsed, which happened in a messy and unplanned way under Prime Minister Vulpes. Ohnar and Ohnar West were both sort of cobbled-together realms because the Dukes needed something to belong to. Even when Galiard was Ohnar West's PM when it was larger, I never had any notion of what it 'meant' as a realm except that it provided a convenient umbrella for largely autonomous Dukes. Toupellon had the same problem.
The one thing that Lasanar did really well during its prime was that it established a very firm feudal structure to support its Republic government. They had this idea of the ruling body (the Grand Council) as a collective sovereign, and even though Dukes had a lot of pull, they were made to swear fealty to the council and publicly support whatever it decided. There were semi-regular attempts to weaken the grand council, usually by Dukes of Colasan, but they were all executed or killed in battle. After that happened two or three times, everyone figured out that maybe the grand council wasn't such a bad idea.
Even before it had a bunch of guys from Arcachon, Ohnar was at best a non-functional realm: it never made a material difference in a war, it never colonized anything, and it never aspired to (much less achieved) any kind of greatness. As much fun as I make of Sartania's annual blow-ups, they always happen in pursuit of something awesome, even if it's also ridiculous. Ohnar was always just ... meh.
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Ohnar was at best a non-functional realm: it never made a material difference in a war...Ohnar was always just ... meh.
That's not completely true. At the start of the war with Arcachon, the segment that happened before Aenilia, Zonasa and Kindara got involved, Arcachon launched a full scale attack on Ohnar. Ohnar met them in Nbasah and kicked their ass. They then helped Arcaea successfully assault Enlod, and had Aenilia not got involved, we would have finished Arcachon off then. I'm not really sure what happened to Ohnar after that, that Arcachon could so easily dominate them from that point on in the war.
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I think it's actually more of a brand problem than a geography problem.
Ohnar came about after Lasanar collapsed, which happened in a messy and unplanned way under Prime Minister Vulpes. Ohnar and Ohnar West were both sort of cobbled-together realms because the Dukes needed something to belong to. Even when Galiard was Ohnar West's PM when it was larger, I never had any notion of what it 'meant' as a realm except that it provided a convenient umbrella for largely autonomous Dukes. Toupellon had the same problem.
This is a really interesting way to view things. It'd be a nice topic in the general forum.
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OW's troop movement and coordination was pretty sad in the fight against Archachon.
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As one of the founders of Ohnar West, I'm glad to see it die. After its founding members all left and Duke Iceberg died, it just became an empty realm for famous nobles from other realms to retire or regain glory. It has been a while since Ohnar stood for anything or had any reason to exist.
So good look, Sorraine!
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Galiard doesn't even like having a Church addressing a King as any kind of equal in power.
Don't worry, the Church would never address a King as an equal in power - all kings are below the Church in the hierarchy of the world :p
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Also, as the player of the current head of the Church of Sartan, a character who was also PM of Ohnar West for a long time, the main thing that doomed the realm was the lack of any proper engagement by anyone in the realm for several years. Pretty much every PM and lots of other characters tried to make the realm exciting and dynamic but every time someone made an attempt all they got was the sound of crickets chirping.
Then, after the break away of southern OW, the realm actually had a chance to reinvent itself - but it was cursed by being reduced to a realm where Arcachonian sympathisers and refugees were the largest minority. That led to it becoming associated with all the ill will that Arcachon had brought upon itself and that was followed by it becoming a haven for every undesirable kicked out of every other FEI realm - the undesirables had nowhere else to go and OW couldn't afford to turn away any fresh blood.
Couple that with founding a new religion led by priests who were often the same undesirables and who generally went around pissing off people in other realms by not asking permission to preach and the next thing you have is a realm with no friends and lots of enemies.
Though, tbh, the only reason Sartanism considers WotD to be evil is because the original explanation of it sounded far too much like atheism. The rivalry and hatred between the two religions only really came about as a consequence of that.
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Melehan isn't HER reason, you mean. My character, who is the Crown Prince, and therefore the second most powerful person in Sorraine, wants to fight because of Ohnar West selling food to Kindara. And since I have control of the military, that's the reason for the military going in.
Rofl :D
It's like Ohnar is playing with its infamy level capped at 5, while realms like Arcaea and Sorraine got them somewhere at 50. A casus belli against Ohnar would have been containment, at best. Not annexation. Corslynth has non at all, I'm yet to see evidence that it was anything but a random land grab. On the other hand, Arcaea gets away with breaking truces and peace treaties, and when Sorraine butchers a few hundred Adgharin, no one bats an eyelash. Even with a higher limit, they're way over their infamy limit, it's just their military score is too great for anyone to risk themselves in a containment war against them.
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Blah blah
At some point you'll need to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than blaming everything on everyone else. Everything you've done since leaving Arcachon has been idiotic to the point of suicidal. Why would you take a dozen nobles that despise Arcaea - and that Arcaea hates - and take over a realm right on Arcaea's border? Why would you ever think that could end in anything but tears for you? Why would you give positions of power to nobles known to be hated in multiple other realms? Why would you try to play far larger realms against each other without the intelligence or the friends to back it up? Why would you try to hold onto a duchy and ban its Sartanian duke when there's no way you can defend it? It boggles the mind, the series of idiotic mistakes Ohnar has made.
And now this latest stupidity. No one forced you to sell food to Kindara during a war when you're supposedly fighting on the other side. You did that all on your own, and you were stupid enough to give Sorraine the excuse it was looking for to destroy you. That's solely on your head, Lefanis.
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At some point you'll need to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than blaming everything on everyone else.
Ehh... Obviously didn't get the reference I was making. Way to make it personal.
Anyway... hold onto a duchy? We returned it to Sorraine, silly us. Can't expect the same from Coralynth, though.
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Land-grabbing is also a perfectly legitimate pursuit, is it not?
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Kinda-sorta. BM made a stab at giving nobles 'legitimate' in-game causes for war with its claims systems a while back but it never really got off the ground, and without inheritance it's pretty difficult to use claims that way.
From a historical standpoint, you'd have minor land wars "just because" - parts of counties or smaller counties that would go back and forth between two Duchies or two Kingdoms. But you wouldn't see England conquering France as a "land grab" - you needed Henry II's marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine to legitimize the English holdings in France and you needed Edward III's claim of superior lineage to justify the 100 Years' war.
Some of these claims were flimsy but it was largely unheard of for two sizable Catholic realms to just declare war in hopes of grabbing territory. Maybe two neighboring catholic lords but that was pretty small scale stuff.
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Looks like Coralynth is already pulling out of the war.
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Looks like Coralynth is already pulling out of the war.
Unless they just wanted to be super buddy buddy with Sorraine, they have a better reason to stay out of it then they did getting into it, so that's for the best I think.
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Some of these claims were flimsy but it was largely unheard of for two sizable Catholic realms to just declare war in hopes of grabbing territory. Maybe two neighboring catholic lords but that was pretty small scale stuff.
That said, sizable wars were started over insults all the time, and harboring known enemies of the King or other powerful nobles was a perfectly acceptable cause for war, both of which would have been applicable in Coralynth's case.
Not to mention the religious angle, of course.
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Oh, yay, here come the trash-talking death duelers...
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Yay! I'm only dueling to surrender!
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Are those similar to death-eaters?
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They could be. After all, they're both evil.
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That said, sizable wars were started over insults all the time, and harboring known enemies of the King or other powerful nobles was a perfectly acceptable cause for war, both of which would have been applicable in Coralynth's case.
Not to mention the religious angle, of course.
Yep, the mixture of reasons is quite convincing. I'm sure some places in that age were overriden for way less serious stuff. But then, I'm definitely not an expert in history...
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Yep, the mixture of reasons is quite convincing. I'm sure some places in that age were overriden for way less serious stuff. But then, I'm definitely not an expert in history...
And, of course, if one wants to indulge in some cold-blooded power politics (as would also have been realistic) Coralynth might well be concerned about Sorraine taking over the entirety of Ohnar West and want to grab a bit of it for themselves to off-set the growth of their most likely war partner.
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And, of course, if one wants to indulge in some cold-blooded power politics (as would also have been realistic) Coralynth might well be concerned about Sorraine taking over the entirety of Ohnar West and want to grab a bit of it for themselves to off-set the growth of their most likely war partner.
Sorraine is quite amenable to Coralynth getting the city along with both Badlands. We want the rurals.
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Some of Sorraine is. Not all.
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Well, I am, and I'm sure Queen Mathilda is as well. There's most of the power of the realm right there.
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I'm not saying it's not a good idea. Just that I don't think *everyone* agrees.
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That said, sizable wars were started over insults all the time,
I don't know about sizable wars. What did you have in mind?
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Why is it that as soon as a war starts, there's always a certain number of people that approach every battle challenging anyone at all on the side to death duels? IMO, I view this as bad as those who constantly insult others and then refuse duels, or those who call random people on the other side stupid and then claim that they've insulted the other person so they *must* duel to the death over it.
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People with high Swords to want to challenge anyone and everyone to duels because they'll know they'll win, and trash talking is a way to provoke people into that. I must admit to being guilty of that myself one or twice, but only against characters I really don't like. Ohnar also happens to have a higher proportion of high Swords people than most realms, for whatever reason.
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Well they'll have to wait until I'm done dueling Wilhelm. Game mechanics won't let me duel anyone else.
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I lost a death duel to a guy with 20% less swordskill than me AND we picked the same strategy. Duels are a game of luck, not skill.
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How do you know he had 20% less than you? Academy estimates can go, what, 5 or 10% each way? You may possibly have had the same skill level.
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I don't know about sizable wars. What did you have in mind?
http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/19120/suleiman-the-magnificent-might-have-conquered-europe-but-for-the-austrians/
Look at the opening story (it's not the best telling, but I'm having difficulty finding a better one, oddly enough, and I don't remember the name of the history book I originally saw it in). The ostensible reason for the Ottomans invading Hungary was this insult by the Hungarian King and the execution of the ambassador. Of course, no one thinks that was actually the real reason, but it was a convenient pretext, which is what we were discussing.
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Dueling has a luck component to it. The RNG has to play its part. But it's not just luck. If it was, then what would be the point of training?
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Dueling has a luck component to it. The RNG has to play its part. But it's not just luck. If it was, then what would be the point of training?
My guess would be that the game rolls a d100, adds your training value, adds whatever factor is involved in the strategies (guessing plus or minus 10 for advantage/disadvantage), and then compares it to the other duelist. This is not from any knowledge of the code, I should note.
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The ostensible reason for the Ottomans invading Hungary
That's why I said catholic on catholic. Non-catholic on Catholic could and did happen for any reason under the sun (Albigensian crusade, 4th crusade, any other crusade).
Think of it like a matrix with culture on one axis and religious on another axis. The closer two lords were, the less likely they would fight an all-out war without a serious reason. Farther apart = more likely to kill lots of people for not a lot of reason.
Religious wars in particular were the biggest 'land grabs,' e.g. the Iberian conquest and reconquista and of course the Holy land.
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That's why I said catholic on catholic.
Okay...But there are religious differences in the conflict with Ohnar West. Not sure how that applies to anything.
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Okay...But there are religious differences in the conflict with Ohnar West. Not sure how that applies to anything.
There absolutely are, but Queen Mathilda is promising that they have nothing to do with the war.
I don't know if anyone believes her, though. ;D
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I don't. Those WotD people are EVIL.
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I don't know if anyone believes her, though.
I think its the die hard theocracy thing that gives it all away! Who'd have thought!?
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Henzo isn't a die hard!
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I don't. Those WotD people are EVIL.
We're not! We're just, you know... difficult to handle :P
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Mathilda Penardin, Sartanian Queen of Sorraine, Duchess of Satus Divinus, Margravine of Ozrat is spotted wearing the Feather of Piety.
Kinky.
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o-o
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So it's like traditional fantasy armor for women?
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Sartan has all the hottest babes on his side.
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Kinky.
Caspius' best gift to Mathilda by far.
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Interesting how this debate goes from: It is alright of Sorraine to declare war - look at real life history to sexy virtual babes....and that in about 1-3 post.
Back on topic, Sorraine has multiple reasons to go to war and considering they have no bonding factors (no similar friends, no similar religion... nothing) there is little stopping them.
I do wonder however how long Ohnar West can keep up this show of force and amount of recruiting.
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Not very.
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That's what I think. But who knows how wealthy all their families are etc.
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Or if other people are supporting them.
No, no one would ever do that. . . .
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Stop with the faux cryptic comments and do it, then! Gather your armies and wade through Arcaea to save your bosom buddies, Ohnar West! :D
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But who knows how wealthy all their families are etc.
I don't know about the others, but my family coffers are pretty limitless ::)
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Stop with the faux cryptic comments and do it, then! Gather your armies and wade through Arcaea to save your bosom buddies, Ohnar West! :D
Pft, Morgan wants Ohnar West and Sorraine to kill each other, he is not a fan of either realm.
I just know that other people may be supporting them from other realms. Or were thinking of doing so, I don't know if they actually are.
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Pft, Morgan wants Ohnar West and Sorraine to kill each other, he is not a fan of either realm.
I just know that other people may be supporting them from other realms. Or were thinking of doing so, I don't know if they actually are.
It wouldn't surprise me at all. Would make the war more fun as well, although IG my chars will never agree with that obviously.
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I didn't want us sitting across from each other forever, so I decided to have some fun and practice my generalship.
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Well Sorraine can better take a punch than Ohnar West considering the number of regions.
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Pft, Morgan wants Ohnar West and Sorraine to kill each other, he is not a fan of either realm.
I just know that other people may be supporting them from other realms. Or were thinking of doing so, I don't know if they actually are.
I've not heard of anything official, but I'd imagine certain families are helping their own.
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Either that or someone is sending them a ****load of gold hehe. Oh well, makes for a fun (yet hard) war I guess, my turn to try...
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Send them gold? Preposterous.
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Well crap... I think half of Sorraine has now bailed and paused their characters...
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Death to the Neo-Ibladeshi!!!
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Well crap... I think half of Sorraine has now bailed and paused their characters...
Why?
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Why?
They must have realized that Sartan is a false god and, as a result, their cause is not just. ;)
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More like I don't have enough time for my FEI characters.
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Our banker, one of Solari's characters, up and paused without warning. No new banker was ever appointed. Our general suddenly decided he didn't have time to play his character, then paused. Our judge stepped down and was appointed general. No new judge was appointed. Our ruler then said "I have lost all motivation to play", and paused. So now the only council position occupied is general, who by law will become the new ruler.
For a realm dedicated to a god of war, we suck at war.
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For a realm dedicated to a god of war, we suck at war.
+1 ;D
Yes, but the promotions are fast! In no time will be less players than duchy’s!
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+1 ;D
Yes, but the promotions are fast! In no time will be less players than duchy’s!
Damn, Indirik is right. Never thought I'd get a city thrown into my lap only to have this much trouble around the corner. We'll make it if we pull together, though. I'm still confident :)
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Our banker, one of Solari's characters, up and paused without warning. No new banker was ever appointed. Our general suddenly decided he didn't have time to play his character, then paused. Our judge stepped down and was appointed general. No new judge was appointed. Our ruler then said "I have lost all motivation to play", and paused. So now the only council position occupied is general, who by law will become the new ruler.
For a realm dedicated to a god of war, we suck at war.
False God!!!
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That it is/they are! For only the Divine is the true creator of the universe!
How many theocracies will they need to lose before they realize their priests have led them astray? <.<
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Look at how successful we are at creating them! We're so dedicated, we keep making more and more.
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And they keep getting wiped out! At the very least one of your priests should be stepping up and saying you're doing something wrong.
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Ha ha ha ha haa!!!!! Could they have made the foreign interference in the war any more blatant?! You silly people just gave Sorraine a huge wild card.
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I do love wild cards ;)
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You still require additional cards to play your wild card off of. If you're holding an off suit 2 and 7, the joker doesn't do you any good.
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Well, better leave that up to the new Queen then. Pretty strange though, at the start of the war Arianne was simply a knight, now she's Queen... promotions do indeed go quickly. And yes, the demanding of a theocracy of the Order of the Elders was not thought that well through...
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Well, better leave that up to the new Queen then. Pretty strange though, at the start of the war Arianne was simply a knight, now she's Queen... promotions do indeed go quickly. And yes, the demanding of a theocracy of the Order of the Elders was not thought that well through...
Since when has *anything* regarding the Order of the Elders been well thought through?
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Death to the Neo-Ibladeshi!!!
I think we'll live a bit longer, sorry.
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Since when has *anything* regarding the Order of the Elders been well thought through?
Valid, considering they use the names of pagan gods. Which I thought was a bit of a no-no, as there are pagan sects that still pay homage to said gods... It'd be like creating a religion with a god named Jesus Christ and claiming to not be Christianity.
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Valid, considering they use the names of pagan gods. Which I thought was a bit of a no-no, as there are pagan sects that still pay homage to said gods... It'd be like creating a religion with a god named Jesus Christ and claiming to not be Christianity.
Pretty sure that exists. You know how religious people can be. All crazy and stuff.
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Valid, considering they use the names of pagan gods. Which I thought was a bit of a no-no, as there are pagan sects that still pay homage to said gods... It'd be like creating a religion with a god named Jesus Christ and claiming to not be Christianity.
Eh, naming your gods after Norse gods is a reasonably common fantasy trope.
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Reasonably tacky you mean. Of course, most fantasy doesn't have a prohibition on RL religions in it either. And while minor, Norse pagans still exist.
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And there's probably people that still worship fire, water, and dirt. Does that mean religions like Aetheris Pyrism, Verdis Elementum, and other elemental-worship religions should be banned?
Yes, we don't allow people to mimic RL religions in BattleMaster. But let's use some common sense in it, please.
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And there's probably people that still worship fire, water, and dirt. Does that mean religions like Aetheris Pyrism, Verdis Elementum, and other elemental-worship religions should be banned?
Yes, we don't allow people to mimic RL religions in BattleMaster. But let's use some common sense in it, please.
Verdis Elementum doesn't worship the elements, they study them, as they allow a better understanding of the gods. No one has ever really bothered to elaborate much on these said gods, though.
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So if I start worshiping Bloodstars, I can destroy SA?
*evil laugh*
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If the Elders worshiping variants of the Norse gods was a problem you'd think they would've been told to change them by now. That goes for the other Norse-esque religions I've run into in the game before that still exists.
Let's not drag that endless religious debate into this thread.
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Yes, let's not. I love when the FEI forum has lots of new posts in it, but I'd much rather they didn't involve religious arguments.
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Since when has *anything* regarding the Order of the Elders been well thought through?
Now now. . .when has anything a Himoura has done been well thought out?
The Order didn't get to be the largest faith in FEI for many years without some skill and hard work.
It seems fitting that during its decline we let Thain take the reigns. . . :D
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Bazinga!
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Now now. . .when has anything a Himoura has done been well thought out?
The Order didn't get to be the largest faith in FEI for many years without some skill and hard work.
It seems fitting that during its decline we let Thain take the reigns. . . :D
Ohnar West is winning. Just saying.
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Ohnar West is winning. Just saying.
Shhhh. We're still commanding about 1/3 the peasants anyways. Pity though, I think Thraymn still has a report from when we had 700,000+
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I'd have to say that Sorraine's current excuse that they cant give up a city because it would just hurt so darn bad is pretty flimsy. Especially given the fact that Ignall shouldnt care nearly as much about the Church or your realm's well being since he's winning.
Unless Sorraine is just stalling, of course.
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Do you expect them to just say "Sure, we'd be happy to hand one over"?
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No, I expect a better excuse than "I know we totally lost, but things are just so hard because our whole Church is in a real pickle. Let us remain at full strength please?"
Though from Sorraine maybe that's asking too much. You guys didnt have much in the way of a clever reason for even declaring war.
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We had a perfectly suitable reason for declaring war. We just sucked at the execution.
Let's face it, the two sides of a war will never agree on whether the other side was justified in dedclaring war. But in this game, we need to sieze upon even the smallest reasons to start a conflict and keep the wars going. Ohnar West undermining the war effort against Kindara by selling them food, when the northern realm's strategy was to starve Kindara into submission, was far from a small reason.
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Ohnar West undermining the war effort against Kindara by selling them food, when the northern realm's strategy was to starve Kindara into submission, was far from a small reason.
I had actually forgotten that was one of the reasons Sorraine declared the war to begin with.
But in this game, we need to sieze upon even the smallest reasons to start a conflict and keep the wars going.
Fair enough and very true.
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I had actually forgotten that was one of the reasons Sorraine declared the war to begin with.
Because it wasn't. Mathilda mentioned it but this was an offense against Cathay, not Sorraine, and Mathilda also made it abundantly clear that her reason for going to war was because Ohnar West didn't deserve to exist and she was going to see to it that it ceased existing. I think at one point she even said that it didn't matter what they did to the one noble that sold food to Kindara, she'd go to war anyway.
OW had no legitimate casus bellus. They wanted a war of conquest. Nothing wrong with that, particularly as they nearly got away with it.
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OW Sorraine had no legitimate casus bellus. They wanted a war of conquest. Nothing wrong with that, particularly as they nearly got away with it.
Guessing that was a typo :P
I'd have to say that Sorraine's current excuse that they cant give up a city because it would just hurt so darn bad is pretty flimsy.
Yeah, imagine how much it would have hurt for Ohnar had we lost Sasrhas.
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Mathilda also made it abundantly clear that her reason for going to war was because Ohnar West didn't deserve to exist and she was going to see to it that it ceased existing. I think at one point she even said that it didn't matter what they did to the one noble that sold food to Kindara, she'd go to war anyway.
They grow up so fast. But yeah, OW deserves to be wiped clean from the face of the earth. It's an annoyance in the greater scheme of things, like the Arcaean Empire :P.
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Mathilda wasn't exactly the most forthcoming in communications she was having with other rulers. The IC reason for the war was food sales to the enemy. And yes, of course we hoped to gain some land out of it, so that OW wouldn't have spare food to go selling to our enemies again. There were some people that wanted to wipe out OW. (But let's face it, 90% of the island wishes OW would just die already.)
There has clearly been a major failure in Sorraine's leadership. They just don't know how to play the politics game, especially for a smaller realm.
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It's an annoyance in the greater scheme of things, like the Arcaean Empire :P.
Talk about unfortunate implications.
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The IC reason for the war was food sales to the enemy
Like I said, not only did she dismiss that, nobody bought it anyway. It was flimsy then and even moreso after the fact, particularly given Sorraine's goal of eliminating Ohnar entirely. Galiard never would've gone for destroying Kindara or Zonasa even if he'd been able to and murdering a foreign King is a bit worse on the scale of Bad Things to Do than selling some food.
Sorraine thought they could get away with it. It was evident from the beginning. They were probably right. I don't think anyone would've sent armies to help Ohnar had they been down to one region.
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Yup, but then the entire government thought it'd be cool to just walk away..just walk away and I got appointed to clean up the mess.
And Ohnar West was maybe winning the actual physical war, but politics are far nastier and they overplayed their hand. There was no chance they'd get a city.
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But let's face it, 90% of the island wishes OW would just die already.
Somehow doubt that's true anymore.
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Still at least about 50% :P
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Ohnar have got some goodwill by being the underdog and then, as it turns out, managing to win. Plus they actually have a rather good PM.
But I expect that goodwill to disappear just as soon as people come into contact with Ohnarians other than the Prime Minister. The likes of McGahee and Melehan have a real knack for pissing people off just by talking to them :p
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The likes of McGahee and Melehan have a real knack for pissing people off just by talking to them :p
I don't know, I rather like McGahee myself ;D
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The likes of McGahee and Melehan have a real knack for pissing people off just by talking to them :p
This is true. Which makes it all the more impressive that they are earning sympathy rather than Sorraine!
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It seems Selene managed to do the same and the difference is, she spoke lately and the Magahee's did not...
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Selene is the new Viracocha.
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Yup, but then the entire government thought it'd be cool to just walk away..just walk away and I got appointed to clean up the mess.
And Ohnar West was maybe winning the actual physical war, but politics are far nastier and they overplayed their hand. There was no chance they'd get a city.
Sorry that I had a life to get to and couldn't play that character like I wanted to anymore.
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given Sorraine's goal of eliminating Ohnar entirely.
I forget whether or not that was Sorraine's original goal or not, but I know for sure that Velax was the one who created and perpetuated the plan for invasion. When the time came, he pulled out to save face, Sorraine lost, and here we are now with Arcaea stepping in again: the circle is complete.
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Our original official goal was not to wipe out OW. There were some who wanted to, of course, but in our initial discussions we only intended to take a couple rurals. Apparently, though, that's not how it was announced to the world at large.
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I forget whether or not that was Sorraine's original goal or not, but I know for sure that Velax was the one who created and perpetuated the plan for invasion. When the time came, he pulled out to save face, Sorraine lost, and here we are now with Arcaea stepping in again: the circle is complete.
That's...not even vaguely correct. Arcaea was going to invade Ohnar - alone - to force a ban on Melehan for his actions during the war. We were not going to destroy Ohnar and Sorraine was not going to be involved. Then out of nowhere Mathilda announced she was going to invade Ohnar to destroy them without bothering to consult anyone first. Arcaea did not believe Ohnar deserved to be destroyed over the actions of one idiot in their ranks.
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Hrrmm.... In Sorraine, we heard that Arcaea had decided not to invade before we decided to go ahead with our war. In fact, we asked Mathilda to make sure that Arcaea was not going to be going to war, and to ask Coralynth to keep out of it, specifically so we could avoid the typical dog-pile war. If we knew that Arcaea was ,in fact, going to attack Ohnar West, we wouldn't have declared. At least, that's what those of us that weren't the ruler wanted.
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Mathilda probably didn't know Arcaea was going to invade, as we had only just reached that decision when Mathilda announced her plan. But she certainly didn't contact Velax beforehand to ask whether we would invade or not.
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I have to say, Mathilda never really gave the impression of being an on-the-ball ruler. But, you know, divine right and all that - can't question someone ruling by the will of the gods :p
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That's...not even vaguely correct. Arcaea was going to invade Ohnar - alone - to force a ban on Melehan for his actions during the war. We were not going to destroy Ohnar and Sorraine was not going to be involved. Then out of nowhere Mathilda announced she was going to invade Ohnar to destroy them without bothering to consult anyone first. Arcaea did not believe Ohnar deserved to be destroyed over the actions of one idiot in their ranks.
That is more than vaguely correct. I would remember, since Caspius and Velax talked about it at length. I'm talking BEFORE the war, remember? Caspius wanted Ohnar West off the map, and he also wanted more regions. Velax told him that he'd help, so long as Caspius let the future realm of Coralynth have Sasrhas and Nbasah. The fact that Me'hoe was Prime Minister, undesirables were his councilors (and duke), and the realm unaligned itself from our solidarity movement against the southern realms meant they were an enemy.
We were, as a result, going to destroy Ohnar completely: the one thing I looked forward to more than anything, including my plans for religious war against OotE.
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Before the war? Yes, months before it. Five or six months and two rulers ago, actually. Back when Me'hoe was being a twat and trying to organise a coalition of southern realms to invade the north. Back when Ohnar was doing everything it could to deliberately antagonise Arcaea and Sorraine. And even then, Velax never would have invaded without an ironclad casus belli. But then you got yourself murdered and Ohnar got itself a semi-competent ruler.
Invading Ohnar West had never been discussed with Mathilda. And as Indirik has pointed out, Sorraine apparently didn't want Arcaea involved, in any case.
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Before the war? Yes, months before it. Five or six months and two rulers ago, actually. Back when Me'hoe was being a twat and trying to organise a coalition of southern realms to invade the north. Back when Ohnar was doing everything it could to deliberately antagonise Arcaea and Sorraine. And even then, Velax never would have invaded without an ironclad casus belli. But then you got yourself murdered and Ohnar got itself a semi-competent ruler.
Invading Ohnar West had never been discussed with Mathilda. And as Indirik has pointed out, Sorraine apparently didn't want Arcaea involved, in any case.
I misinterpreted the term "original" in this case, I suppose.
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Our original official goal was not to wipe out OW
Sorraine's official goal (as transmitted by its official mouthpiece) was very much to wipe out OW. Mathilda was very unambiguous about that.
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That was not the goal agreed on by the Queen's council when discussing the war. Yes, I understand that's what Mathilda may have said when declaring the war. But it's not the war the rest of the realm agreed to start.
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But it's not the war the rest of the realm agreed to start.
Tough to imagine Sorraine suddenly stopping a war they were winning without taking Sasrhas. Especially since they attacked Sasrhas.
I get that the forums are mostly propaganda but this one is tough to swallow IC or OOC. It doesn't even make sense: if you were going to take a diplomatic hit for starting a war with a casus bellus nobody accepted to begin with why would you leave a 2-region realm guaranteed to hold a grudge on your flank?
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Guarantee of a future war? Also, even if you don't declare a goal to kill the other realm, you can be reasonably sure that they wouldn't surrender. Therefore Sorraine would have to, "with great regret and full of sorrow", put an end to Ohnar West. That's how you play the polotical game. You declare something small, figuring that the other side will push it to the end. But that's their fault, not yours.
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Also, it would have left them with 3 regions. Nbasah didn't defect until later. And, honestly, my character didn't give a damn what it would have left OW. She would be happy if they just got it over with and died.
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Sorraine's official goal (as transmitted by its official mouthpiece) was very much to wipe out OW. Mathilda was very unambiguous about that.
That about sums it up.
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Yay for Solo Slim and chickening out.
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Yay for Solo Slim and chickening out.
Yay for what?