BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Shizzle on April 06, 2011, 01:09:27 AM
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I figured it would be cool if we had a place to show off the units under our command. It's not just about the amount of soldiers in your unit though, also about the number of CS per man. I'm hoping to gain some insight on the relevance of weapons/armour/training/cohesion/unit size/... :)
I guess I'll start off, with a modest unit:
Newlings
Captain Valdric (+2)
Type: Infantry
Strength: 19 men
Training: 80 %
Weapons/Armour: 50% / 65%
Damage: 9 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 382
CS per man = 20.11
In general, would you rather prefer fewer strong men, or a big group of weaker? (for an equal total CS)
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In general, would you rather prefer fewer strong men, or a big group of weaker? (for an equal total CS)
Depends on what you want to do. If you're going to charge walls with some siege engines, fewer stronger men by far. Most of the time, for fighting in general, fewer stronger men. If you want to tear down walls, RC's, take or hold regions, you need more weaker troops.
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I figured it would be cool if we had a place to show off the units under our command. It's not just about the amount of soldiers in your unit though, also about the number of CS per man. I'm hoping to gain some insight on the relevance of weapons/armour/training/cohesion/unit size/... :)
I guess I'll start off, with a modest unit:
Newlings
Captain Valdric (+2)
Type: Infantry
Strength: 19 men
Training: 80 %
Weapons/Armour: 50% / 65%
Damage: 9 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 382
CS per man = 20.11
In general, would you rather prefer fewer strong men, or a big group of weaker? (for an equal total CS)
CS per man is not exactly fair, since CS calculation does not scale linearly with the number of men, so a smaller unit with same stats will have higher CS per man, it's designed that way.
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With fewer stronger men I can have more healers per soldier, which appears to increase the chance of men being wounded rather then killed. Having a 30 man unit that remains close to full strength after several turns of battle, is very useful.
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I figured it would be cool if we had a place to show off the units under our command. It's not just about the amount of soldiers in your unit though, also about the number of CS per man. I'm hoping to gain some insight on the relevance of weapons/armour/training/cohesion/unit size/... :)
I guess I'll start off, with a modest unit:
Newlings
Captain Valdric (+2)
Type: Infantry
Strength: 19 men
Training: 80 %
Weapons/Armour: 50% / 65%
Damage: 9 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 382
CS per man = 20.11
In general, would you rather prefer fewer strong men, or a big group of weaker? (for an equal total CS)
I lose men so often, this isn't really in good context:
Grey Wardens
Captain Josef (+7)
Type: Cavalry
Strength: 21 men
Training: 77 %
Weapons/Armour: 66% / 66%
Damage: 4 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 86 %
Combat Strength: 507
CS per man: 24.14
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What does it say of me that I consider this modest?
Tuatha De Danann
Captain Heinrich (+9)
Type: Infantry
Strength: 42 men
Training: 86 %
Weapons/Armour: 70% / 75%
Damage: 16 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 688
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What does it say of me that I consider this modest?
Tuatha De Danann
Captain Heinrich (+9)
Type: Infantry
Strength: 42 men
Training: 86 %
Weapons/Armour: 70% / 75%
Damage: 16 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 688
That's pretty mediocre, Joe. 8)
Auroran Knights
Captain Heinrich (+2)
Type: Special Forces
Strength: 54 (+2 wounded)
Training: 59 %
Weapons/Armour: 100% / 70%
Damage: 9 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 70 %
Combat Strength: 1103
This, this is truly modest. :P
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That's pretty mediocre, Joe. 8)
Auroran Knights
Captain Heinrich (+2)
Type: Special Forces
Strength: 54 (+2 wounded)
Training: 59 %
Weapons/Armour: 100% / 70%
Damage: 9 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 70 %
Combat Strength: 1103
This, this is truly modest. :P
You must not be familiar with the Barony's Behexed Artillery...
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Sirion has SF with 100/95. I wonder if there is SF with 100-5/100. :o
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Sirion has SF with 100/95. I wonder if there is SF with 100-5/100. :o
I know a good SF center in Carelia was recently destroyed. I forget the exact stats though.
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Sirion has SF with 100/95.
Darka has 100/95-4.
I wonder if there is SF with 100-5/100.
Icegate on AT has 99/99/99 R5. The infamous Behexed Artillery.
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Darka has 100/95-4.
Icegate on AT has 99/99/99 R5. The infamous Behexed Artillery.
Are you serious? What can stop an army made of those Behexed Arrtillery? Why have they not rolled AT yet? :P
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Ask what their cost is. Compare it to the income BoM gets. As well, ask the size of the RC, and how many recruits it gets a day.
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Ask what their cost is. Compare it to the income BoM gets. As well, ask the size of the RC, and how many recruits it gets a day.
145 per 10, with SF weekly costs and high repair costs from the equipment, and I believe the center is up to size 3 now. Those in BoM that want them are generally able to afford them, but only just.
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So my guess at the reason BoM hasn't taken over AT yet is because the cost of losing even one of those would often offset the loss of about ten moderate standard units. Considering the cost, the smaller numbers that can be fielded by most nobles, as well as the rate of recruit replacement, BoM would probably need at least two such RCs to make an army that might make a huge impact everywhere they go.
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My GOD! That is most inefficient unit ever. I would rather hire other types than hire them. I do not think even dukes can hire over 50...
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Cavalier banker dukes who have duchy and realm taxes that funnel money to the banker, and with all lords investing all the time? Hah, not actually going to happen, but in theory, that would allow that one guy to have an awesome unit until he has to repair their equipment damage.
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One of the old Generals of PeL used to walk around with 80-90 SF at around 1,800 CS. He would literally shred monster hordes to pieces before they could even get close.
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One of the old Generals of PeL used to walk around with 80-90 SF at around 1,800 CS. He would literally shred monster hordes to pieces before they could even get close.
Yeah, ranged units are definitely the way to go on Dwilight, if one can get them strong enough! Its a nice counterbalance to the rest of the islands, where archers are somewhat under-used I suspect. Sorry for the divergence ???
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Hm, would you believe that none of my characters has a unit right now? Also, are we going strictly by the units we currently have?
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Sigrid's Shield
Captain Luitpold (+12)
Type: Mixed Infantry
Range: 3 lines
Strength: 34 men
Training: 96 %
Weapons/Armour: 87% / 64%
Damage: 0 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 704
2 Scouts, 2 Healers, 2 Banners
21cs per man, 20cs if you count the Hero char leading them but I think that bonus only counts in battle.
This bunch have been on homeland defense duties for years and can easily take out an equal force of monsters or undead without losses.
Being M.I. it can get complicated when they have help, though.
Seriously, has anyone ever made sense of M.I. actions in battle when not acting solo?
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It takes a brave man to brag about his MI unit.
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;D
I originally recruited them as militia for a small region that could only support one militia unit but ran into monsters on the way home.
I realised that as a home guard member I usually encounter enemies with no missile weapons.. often alone.. M.I. are perfect for this - pick them off then beat them up. I can take this unit up against an undead horde, obliterate them and walk away with a few wounded men, 5% equipment damage, +5% morale and maybe +1 honour... and all for about 70 gold per week and the ridicule of my peers.
If you're not at risk of invasion (and if dictating unit types was not a horrible breach of IR) a home guard and militia comprised entirely of M.I. would be an interesting experiment.. if only they were not so unpredictable.
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My GOD! That is most inefficient unit ever. I would rather hire other types than hire them. I do not think even dukes can hire over 50...
Hang - a long-time member of the Barony who has held every title but Ruler - is able to field somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 SF as a cavalier. I think the most I've ever had Hang field was 50, with a CS of <a lot>.
Cavalier banker dukes who have duchy and realm taxes that funnel money to the banker, and with all lords investing all the time? Hah, not actually going to happen, but in theory, that would allow that one guy to have an awesome unit until he has to repair their equipment damage.
To be honest, all it takes to field a unit of Behexed Artillery is a decent income (more than 100 gold/week) and honor.
So my guess at the reason BoM hasn't taken over AT yet is because the cost of losing even one of those would often offset the loss of about ten moderate standard units. Considering the cost, the smaller numbers that can be fielded by most nobles, as well as the rate of recruit replacement, BoM would probably need at least two such RCs to make an army that might make a huge impact everywhere they go.
More likely that BoM has never had an expansionist mindset, and since the implementation of estates simply has not had enough knights to even consider it. Fortunately, we've always been more interested in taking someone else's gold than their land.
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Fury of Ortedail
Captain Jodokus (+3)
Type: Archers
Range: 4 lines
Strength: 60 men
Training: 86 %
Weapons/Armour: 75% / 65%
Damage: 0 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 915
Encounter Setting: defend
Deployment Line: middle
Deployment Formation: line
Designation: army
Last paid: 1 days ago
15.25CS/man Nice for 60 men
Cost 90 gold/week I think.
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Fletch and Steel Band
Captain Liebert (+5)
Type: Mixed Infantry
Range: 2 lines
Strength: 13 men
Training: 87 %
Weapons/Armour: 55% / 55%
Damage: 0 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 343
Encounter Setting: defend
Deployment Line: rearguard
Deployment Formation: box
Designation: mercenary
Last paid: 4 days ago
That's 26.3 CS/man, not bad for such shabby equipment.
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Fletch and Steel Band
Captain Liebert (+5)
Type: Mixed Infantry
Range: 2 lines
Strength: 13 men
Training: 87 %
Weapons/Armour: 55% / 55%
Damage: 0 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 343
Encounter Setting: defend
Deployment Line: rearguard
Deployment Formation: box
Designation: mercenary
Last paid: 4 days ago
That's 26.3 CS/man, not bad for such shabby equipment.
That's unit size scaling for you ;)
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Are you serious? What can stop an army made of those Behexed Arrtillery? Why have they not rolled AT yet? :P
Because they're ranged SF, and ranged SF behave as dumb in combat as MI.
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Type: Special Forces
Strength: 50 men
Training: 96 %
Weapons/Armour: 100% / 70%
Damage: 10 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 78 %
Combat Strength: 1284
Encounter Setting: normal
Deployment Line: front
Deployment Formation: line
Designation: army
25.7 CS per man. I mean there no superpower but they get the job done :)
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Because they're ranged SF, and ranged SF behave as dumb in combat as MI.
I've found MI to be underwhelming when part of a bigger army, but being quite useful as a personal protection unit. If you hit an unexpected monster spawn all alone, MI is the best thing you can wish to have.
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Personally, I assume that MI do not exist. I'd rather get Infantry/Archers/Cavalry and that's it, but alas, there's SF that destroy most other units if well trained and well equipped and lucky. ;)
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I got a new unit yesterday :)
Before I always got cavalry, but the amount of hits seems to be very variable. I guess the impact is maximised when no melee combat has started yet, and the cav just charge the ranks?
Too bad the cavalry can't make a circular motion around the enemy, surprising them from behind. I realise that would need some serious tweaking/updating the combat system though :) Another thing: why can't we somehow hide troops in a region? (yes, I'm the king of going off-topic :))
Fissoa's Elite
Captain Warmund (+4)
Type: Special Forces
Strength: 30 men
Training: 80 %
Weapons/Armour: 90% / 50%
Damage: 5 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 32 %
Combat Strength: 695
Also, I must agree: archers can be very useful on dwilight :) especially against rogues, as you simply heal most wounded men before the battle of the next turn...
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Yep. When one of my char was a marshal of Astrum, I made people get archers and only two people in my army had infantry units. Monsters have low defense so before they even get to infantry units, they just died.
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Yep. When one of my char was a marshal of Astrum, I made people get archers and only two people in my army had infantry units. Monsters have low defense so before they even get to infantry units, they just died.
Made them? As in violated the right that every player has to choose their own unit? Or did you simply offer incentives. Cause one of these cases is fine, and the other is very very bad.
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I told them to recruit archers if possible. I know I can't order them to do so. I only had 2 active members in the army anyway lol
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I told them to recruit archers if possible.
Which is... still a violation of the IR...
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Which is... still a violation of the IR...
Mmm yes I though it was a violation myself.
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Really? I can't recommend unit types even?
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The wki is crystal clear on this; When concerning inalienable rights a request from a superior is equivilant to an order.
You might be alright if, during a general report on the army you mention you lack a certain kind of junit type but to say 'it would be nice if you recruited infantry' is like your boss saying 'it would be nice if you send me a progress report' .. it's just a polite order.
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You could probably also say something like, "I am searching to x volunteers to recruit y units. Gold will be made available to compensate their costs"
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Oh never mind then. I told my men archers would be better against monsters then infantry units.
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21cs per man, 20cs if you count the Hero char leading them but I think that bonus only counts in battle.
Yes, and it does not lower the CS value. You don't only get a man added, you also get the equivalent CS added.
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Interesting, so Heroes are more useful for elite units.
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You're only as good as the men you lead, and all. Was that how it went?
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Interesting, so Heroes are more useful for elite units.
That's new to me too. Though I guess 60+1 isn't all that useful :)
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It takes a brave man to brag about his MI unit.
qft
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You're only as good as the men you lead, and all. Was that how it went?
That brings a quote above in me about the film 300, along the lines of; "a phalanx is only as strong as its weakest elements"
But this is the only unit I currently have with my 4 characters:
Iratus' Peditum
Captain Konrad (+3)
Type: Infantry
Strength: 1 men
Training: 71 %
Weapons/Armour: 72% / 64%
Damage: 77 %
Morale: 94 %
Cohesion: 68 %
Combat Strength: 24
An unit that doesn't really deserve any fame. ;)
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Well, at least he gets along with himself! ;D
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Well, at least he gets along with himself! ;D
Mostly. :P
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Royal Guard
Captain Tomas (+2)
Type: Special Forces
Range: 4 lines
Strength: 30 men
Training: 96 %
Weapons/Armour: 100% / 95%
Damage: 4 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 994
With no equipment damage the CS is 1005 which translates to 33.5CS per man.
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Royal Guard
Captain Tomas (+2)
Type: Special Forces
Range: 4 lines
Strength: 30 men
Training: 96 %
Weapons/Armour: 100% / 95%
Damage: 4 %
Morale: 100 %
Cohesion: 100 %
Combat Strength: 994
With no equipment damage the CS is 1005 which translates to 33.5CS per man.
Very interesting. In the wiki is says about 40 cs for SF/Cav is good. But looking at the above, that should be adjusted downward to 30. 40 is clearly not reachable. Unless you want a little pocket squadron lol.
I daresay the above is almost the perfect unit.
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Very interesting. In the wiki is says about 40 cs for SF/Cav is good. But looking at the above, that should be adjusted downward to 30. 40 is clearly not reachable. Unless you want a little pocket squadron lol.
I daresay the above is almost the perfect unit.
The captain could use some improvement, though ;)
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Very interesting. In the wiki is says about 40 cs for SF/Cav is good. But looking at the above, that should be adjusted downward to 30. 40 is clearly not reachable. Unless you want a little pocket squadron lol.
I daresay the above is almost the perfect unit.
CS/man is an awful basis of comparison, as it lowers with the more men you have. The 40CS/man standard is probably for a unit of 10 men. Or of 1...
It's only useful if you have the actual number with it, such as 1337 CS/110 men, then others can compare to see if they have less men for the same CS or more CS for the same amount of men.
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Maybe we could calculate that variable in by: total cs x number of men?
That way, high CS units with few men wouldn't have a advantage. And units with a lot of men suffer a CS penalty, so that would straighten things up on the other side...
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I daresay the above is almost the perfect unit.
Too much peace destroyed that in a few days. Went from 96% training to 78% :'(
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Shouldn't we be getting explicit notices in our unit status report telling us about the negative effects we're getting from this?
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Too Much Peace decreases training? :o That makes little sense...
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Just like anything else: If you don't use a skill, you lose it. So if you want your highly trained troops to stay in tip-top shape, you have to train them. You can do this by either sending them into battle, or by spending the time and gold to explicitly train them. Your choice.
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That brings a quote above in me about the film 300, along the lines of; "a phalanx is only as strong as its weakest elements"
"In the end, a Spartan's true strength is the warrior next to him."
Oh so quotable movie.
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"In the end, a Spartan's true strength is the warrior next to him."
Oh so quotable movie.
THIS IS SPARTA!
(I just had to - admit it)
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"In the end, a Spartan's true strength is the warrior next to him."
Oh so quotable movie.
Here I was thinking that a Spartan's true strength was a society that not only allowed them to be full time soldiers, dedicated only to improving their skills, but a society that actively forced that life style upon them :)
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Interesting thought :) "A warrior's true strength is peer pressure" :P