| Summary: | Accusations of abuse and general harassment |
| Violation: | Fair play |
| World: | Atamara |
| Complainer: | Aaron Champion (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=31496) |
| About: | Enri (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=19068) |
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari  (8 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
Always said I was going to create a character here some day. Well, now you're stuck with me. My condolences.
Aaron Champion
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Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey  (8 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
Well well well, the Great House Solari came to spy on us in person! This is quite an honor! Normally we'd qualify for a minor retainer at most!
I'm watching you. *stares* -|~~ -|~~ -|~~
(Those are supposed to be daggers by the way.)
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Out-of-Character from Remi Solari  (8 days ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
You may not know this, but I really have been wanting to play on the same "team" as you for awhile. I appreciate your command style and thorough planning. I really did apply much of what I gleaned from Enri's strategizing and orders in Thalmarkin. I'm looking forward to this!
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Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey  (7 days, 5 hours ago)
I have good reason to suspect that you recruited new players into the game just so that you could spy on CE. That's not against the rules, but in my humble opinion that is not very sporting.
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Out-of-Character from Remi Solari  (6 days, 23 hours ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
I'm afraid that's simply not true, but I'd be happy to tell you exactly how I was able to learn so much.
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Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey  (6 days, 7 hours ago)
Allow me to rephrase: You picked new players who recently joined the game, and bribed them into making characters in CE and spying on us. It's still not sporting.
Yangfan Wang
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Out-of-Character from Remi Solari  (4 days, 21 hours ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
The bulk of intel came from characters of good standing in the realm. Else how would Enri's deliberations with the marshals have been obtained? I can appreciate your point of view, and I've come to agree with parts of it. That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks. It's time-consuming and unfair to others. But sporting? Come on. We're both competitive, and have gone to great lengths for our "teams". You exploit an advantage where it can be found, particularly when you're so mismatched conventionally.
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Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey  (4 days, 14 hours ago)
Yes, because CE and Carelia & Co. was so "mismatched" at the beginning of the war. Spying is a tool that you always deployed, not something that you reserved for desperate situations.
There is a difference between competitiveness and bad sportsmanship. There is a difference between playing well and taking unfair advantages over others. There is a difference between obeying both the spirit and the letter of the rules, and skirting around the edges and rules-lawyering. Like, oh, say, claiming that you are not realm-merging because there was still that lone stronghold left out in the middle of nowhere, and then throwing its duke under the proverbial bus when he merged with a neighbor. Was it against the rules? Technically, no. Was it a dick move that would have made Machiavelli blush? Yes.
This is supposed to be a friendly game. I find it sad and pathetic the lengths that some players, including Devs, will go to try to "win" unfairly. Sometimes they fall flat on their face anyways. I do get some schadenfreude from
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey (4 days, 14 hours ago)
Yes, because CE and Carelia & Co. was so "mismatched" at the beginning of the war. Spying is a tool that you always deployed, not something that you reserved for desperate situations.
There is a difference between competitiveness and bad sportsmanship. There is a difference between playing well and taking unfair advantages over others. There is a difference between obeying both the spirit and the letter of the rules, and skirting around the edges and rules-lawyering. Like, oh, say, claiming that you are not realm-merging because there was still that lone stronghold left out in the middle of nowhere, and then throwing its duke under the proverbial bus when he merged with a neighbor. Was it against the rules? Technically, no. Was it a dick move that would have made Machiavelli blush? Yes.
This is supposed to be a friendly game. I find it sad and pathetic the lengths that some players, including Devs, will go to try to "win" unfairly. Sometimes they fall flat on their face anyways. I do get some schadenfreude from that.
"That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks."
... I have a theory about spying: You don't really need to gather intel using the old-fashioned ways anymore. It makes you out of practice. You are a really bad liar, you know?
I'm not really interested in anything that you have to say at this point.
Yangfan Wang
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari (4 days, 11 hours ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
I'm very sorry you feel the way you do. Your impression of who I am and how I play is wildly inaccurate, but I can respect your wishes. I joined CE to have fun in a team-centric realm. I'm sure you'll demonstrate the same sportsmanship you so easily accuse me of lacking by not allowing your OOC opinions to impact my IC experience. Hopefully, with time, you'll come to realize how silly you're being.
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari (1 day, 1 hour ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
I'm happy to indulge you so that you never actually have to interact with me, but if you continue to abuse the social contract by acting out your silly, ill-informed OOC agenda against my character by condemning him to a purgatory of inactivity, I will escalate the matter, and you will lose badly. I cannot express strongly enough how wrong you are on every point. I came to CE to play on your team. You need to accept it and put on your big boy pants. Your choice.
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey (7 hours, 8 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari (17 hours, 46 minutes ago)
I'm happy to indulge you so that you never actually have to interact with me, but if you continue to abuse the social contract by acting out your silly, ill-informed OOC agenda against my character by condemning him to a purgatory of inactivity, I will escalate the matter, and you will lose badly. I cannot express strongly enough how wrong you are on every point. I came to CE to play on your team. You need to accept it and put on your big boy pants. Your choice.
Aaron Champion
I'm not sure that I understand. Enri gave Remi the same orders that he gave to Duke Celestial. Are you saying that the assignment is not befitting your newly minted knight, even though it's acceptable to a Duke? Is Remi too good to command an escort unit for his liege? I'm sorry, but some missions are boring yet necessary. If I wait around for volunteers, they'll never get done.
What is against the rules is threatening to "escalate the matter" in order to try to get your way. But you knew that.
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari (23 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
Would you really like your private OOC letters to me shared with the realm, Yangfan? Are you that stupid? Or would you prefer to go back to pretending like you have a solid IC reason for for harassing behavior?
I'm going to continue playing as though I'm welcome here. Part of a team. You could at least indulge this fantasy by practicing the "sportsmanship" that you lectured me about. Fair enough?
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari (14 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
For clarity's sake—and this is really the last thing I'm going to say OOC in public—the "escalation" that I mentioned and that the player of Enri refers to is this:
Request from Remi Solari (1 day ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
Awaiting orders.
(OOC: I'll do this every day until you grow up, Yangfan.)
Letter from Remi Solari (20 hours ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
Thank you, Your Grace. General Enri, do you in fact have other orders at this time?
Request from Remi Solari (9 hours, 53 minutes ago)
(Personal message to Enri Kinsey)
General Enri—
As I am ever early to rise, I wish to inquire about the latest orders in advance of sunrise.
I wasn't aware that asking for orders every turn was so threatening. Can we get back to playing a game now?
Letter from Celestial Fury (7 days, 23 hours ago)
Will you be choosing the path of the warrior? Let me know if you have an army in mind or I shall assign you to the FoEL by Nidan tradition.
The Lightning Griffins take in mostly Cavalry. The Est Sularus oth Mithas is based on one of the earliest surviving guilds in the Empire. The Eaglin Eagles, Pax Cagila & Calis Lions have roots in their respective linked-cities. The Fyrd of Ered Luin is the homeland army but has now been roped in for offensive operations.
Army Sponsor Marshal
Eaglin Eagles Archymond Paxwax Virgo Blue Star
Fyrd of Ered Luin Salvador Zond Celestial Fury
Est Sularus oth Mithas Milan Prestongreen Charles Elegant
Lightning Griffins Archymond Paxwax Archymond Paxwax
Pax Cagila Milan Prestongreen Mizuhiro Ishida
Calis Lions Salvador Zond Enri Kinsey
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Letter from Remi Solari (7 days, 19 hours ago)
(Personal message to Celestial Fury)
If you will allow me the honor, I'd like to campaign under the banner of Est Sularus oth Mithas.
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Report from Remi Solari (7 days, 17 hours ago)
Message sent to: Aknar Frendrin, Charles Elegant
Commanders—
It is my privilege and honor to report that my liege, the Duke of Nida, has granted me leave to campaign with your army. I am leaving Nida for Cagil now and eagerly await your orders.
In arms,
Remi Solari
Knight of Nida
Orders from Enri Kinsey (5 days, 14 hours ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Remi Solari
Sir Remi,
I consider it good manners to announce yourself when you first join a realm.
Your liege is in Skalk. Please join him there, and accompany him on his patrols in southern CE.
Sir Enri Kinsey
General of Cagilan Empire
Knight of Ravening
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Report from Remi Solari (4 days, 11 hours ago)
(Personal message to Celestial Fury)
My lord—
Having recruited, I am now leaving the capital to rejoin you as per the General's admittedly unusual orders. Shall I meet you in Skalk?
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Letter from Celestial Fury (4 days, 4 hours ago)
Sir Remi,
I'm currently in Nida and shall remain here until rogues show up nearby.
Celestial Fury
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Report from Remi Solari (1 day, 18 hours ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
At the General's order, I have arrived in Nida and am reporting for duty.
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Orders from Celestial Fury (23 hours, 52 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Enri Kinsey, Remi Solari
Sir Remi,
I usually sit in a city until either:
rogues come up OR
region stats go down
Then I ride out into the sunrise / sunset.
You may follow these orders unless General Enri has others.
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Orders from Enri Kinsey (7 hours, 28 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Remi Solari
Sir Remi,
Your last orders were to join your liege in Skalk. He is still there. Are you in Skalk yet? No, you are not. You are in Nida. Please move to either Alatol or Garnagi, and then forward into Skalk.
You are to stick close to your liege unless ordered otherwise by him or me. Duke Celestial is responsible for patrolling our southern regions, but he is but one man, and cannot be everywhere at once. You can help by suppressing the smaller rogue infestations by yourself, and joining forces with your liege to attack any large rogue infestations that spring up.
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Orders from Enri Kinsey (6 hours, 35 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (67 recipients)
Those in Anost already have their orders.
Courtiers should be on the look-out for regions that might need your assistance.
Lord Garro, please keep raising militia in Eagle's Glen. What we currently have in the region is not enough. Please let me know if you run out of funds.
Duke Celestial, Sir Remi, please keep southern CE free of rogue forces. Sir Remi, I want you to stick close to your liege.
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Letter from Remi Solari (59 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Celestial Fury, Enri Kinsey
My apologies, General Enri. The last letter I received from my liege intimated that he was in Nida and not Skalk. Fortunately, I shall be able to ride out and meet him in Garnagi. Thank you for the opportunity to assist in what way I can.
... I have a theory about spying: You don't really need to gather intel using the old-fashioned ways anymore.
It seems to me that he is being harassed due to an OOC perception on the part of Yangfan Wang that he is abusing his position as a dev to get an advantage in the game. That's not playing as with friends.
In my eyes, at the very least, this line was way out of bounds:
There, you all but outright accused Solari of either multicheating or abusing devly powers to obtain information. (Which, for the record, he can't: he doesn't have access to the live database or current messages sent and received, in any form. Only two people in the game have that access, and those are Tom and me.)
Letter from Enri Kinsey (6 days, 1 hour ago)
(Personal message to Celestial Fury)
Your Grace,
When House Solari conducts espionage operations, communiques are never passed from one family member to another. That would far too easily stir up suspicion. Instead, House Solari has compromised several families on several islands through a patronage scheme. House Solari has great power and influence on some other islands, and they give promotions in rank to those families whose relatives spy for them on Atamara. Thomas Solari was in the process of building a new power base in Carelia, but he fled after Carelia's defeat. That was the only reason I did not put him on the Villains List.
I am guessing that this Remi is a part of some reverse scheme to regain a Solari beach-head on Atamara. He knows that the chances of us ever trusting him with power is small, so why join CE? So he could sell our secrets in exchange for power.
Please do not place your trust in him.
Sir Enri Kinsey
General of Cagilan Empire
Knight of Ravening
"That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks."
Out-of-Character from Remi Solari (9 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
Always said I was going to create a character here some day. Well, now you're stuck with me. My condolences.
Aaron Champion
Out-of-Character from Nicotina Marlboro (9 days, 2 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
There goes the neighborhood.
Out-of-Character from Mizuhiro Ishida (8 days, 22 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
So the "illustrious" House Solari has finally come to plague us! XD
En Kai
Out-of-Character from Torsaan ka Habb (8 days, 22 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
welcome to the dark side, we don't actually have cookies. we do have the tears of the innocent.
Dillan Mendonca
Out-of-Character from Londo Mollari Centaurum (8 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
I don't get it, are you famous, Aaron, or something? and why are you offering condolences? are you trying to be funny?
Out-of-Character from Garro Tarvitz (8 days, 14 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (66 recipients)
Oh dear, now I'm stuck with him on two continents... why did this have to happen to me. :P
Chris Lowe
I will escalate the matter, and you will lose badly.Though Solari clarified later, how do you lose badly from getting basically spam? You don't really lose badly its just annoying, but you can lose badly in a magistrate case, so as Solari's clarification was after the fact, I would say that Goldpanda had evidence/proof which does make the accusation allowed.
Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence.
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey (4 days, 14 hours ago)
Yes, because CE and Carelia & Co. was so "mismatched" at the beginning of the war. Spying is a tool that you always deployed, not something that you reserved for desperate situations.
There is a difference between competitiveness and bad sportsmanship. There is a difference between playing well and taking unfair advantages over others. There is a difference between obeying both the spirit and the letter of the rules, and skirting around the edges and rules-lawyering. Like, oh, say, claiming that you are not realm-merging because there was still that lone stronghold left out in the middle of nowhere, and then throwing its duke under the proverbial bus when he merged with a neighbor. Was it against the rules? Technically, no. Was it a dick move that would have made Machiavelli blush? Yes.
This is supposed to be a friendly game. I find it sad and pathetic the lengths that some players, including Devs, will go to try to "win" unfairly. Sometimes they fall flat on their face anyways. I do get some schadenfreude from that.
"That's why I don't bother with spying, and haven't since leaving Carelia. Despite what you might think, and certainly despite what your character in D'Hara thinks."
... I have a theory about spying: You don't really need to gather intel using the old-fashioned ways anymore. It makes you out of practice. You are a really bad liar, you know?
I'm not really interested in anything that you have to say at this point.
Yangfan Wang
Hmmm, yeah, I looked at it to see where/what the accusation was, and it does sound like an accusation, but I would say that Enri/Goldpanda does have evidence. Though Solari clarified later, how do you lose badly from getting basically spam? You don't really lose badly its just annoying, but you can lose badly in a magistrate case, so as Solari's clarification was after the fact, I would say that Goldpanda had evidence/proof which does make the accusation allowed.
Please, call me Yangfan.
I would like to note that this message was sent neither "repeatedly" nor "publicly". I was also very careful to never accuse Aaron (or anyone else in particular) of breaking the game rules or the Social Contract. My low opinion of certain unnamed person (or persons?) on the Dev team is out in the open now, but surely that won't come back to bite me in the future. ;)
This wouldn't be the first time someone has accused Mr. Champion of unsportsmanlike conduct and I'm not even talking about the things I have said.That helps in no way for the case and seems like you are only slandering his name. Though we are discussing how it seemed that he made it sound like he could have been threatening to do a magistrate case, that is merely to prove Yangfan innocent with his accusation, as Aaron later clarified what he meant.
That helps in no way for the case and seems like you are only slandering his name. Though we are discussing how it seemed that he made it sound like he could have been threatening to do a magistrate case, that is merely to prove Yangfan innocent with his accusation, as Aaron later clarified what he meant.
Honestly, I don't like accusations of cheating/spying OOC, private or not. Either way, you aren't playing as you would with friends. I personally would have deleted my character right then and started somewhere that you weren't. I don't care if there has been IC spying (as long as it was done using only IC means), that is no reason to OOC'ly send messages of this nature to someone.
IMO, we shouldn't totally disregard the IC things. We do have to ask why the IC assignments were given.
IC reasons do exist: as both Yangfan has said, and as I postulated.
BUT, the messages perplex me about whether the IC things were actually motivated ICly.
Example: If I OOC message someone and say, "I'm banning your character because of XYZ you said on the forum," but then the character also happens to be breaking some realm law, the ban is STILL a violation of the SC: because the existence of IC reasons is not sufficient.
IMHO, and I know I'm in a minority on this, players with negative OOC history have to walk on tip-toes around each other and go out of their way to play nice. As best I can tell, Aaron was doing this: making a new character playing in a new realm in a new crowd. Yangfan decided to haze the new guy to get him to go away, because he didn't OOCly trust him based on an OOC belief about spy networks that he regards as "fuzzy" in regards to their IC/OOCness. To me, that's wrong. And here's why:
If the alleged spy network was "bad," then a Magistrates case could have been filed. If its "unsportsmanslike" or not playing with friends, Magistrates can address it. Seriously– I'd love to have somebody bring up a case about a multi-continental secretive spy/patronage ring. It'd give me an AWESOME chance to soapbox about clanning again. But such a case did not appear. Such a case having not appeared, the existence of the spying activity, and especially its negative moral character, must be ignored for a ruling. Because, IMHO, if such a multi-continental secretive network did exist, it would be next to impossible for it to be acceptable within the Social Contract. Accusing someone of such a network IS accusing them of cheating, and then predicating your treatment of their characters on your (unproven) beliefs about their (possible) behavior that (may be) cheating is inappropriate.
Ultimately, it seems a mild violation to me. I don't see either party here as having done anything particularly egregious; just some ruffled feathers– but, to me, again, it still appears that Yangfan is the one who acted inappropriately first (I won't address the "escalation" thing here), in that it does not appear to me most likely that his choice of orders for Remi was really about IC family vendettas. It seems like it was about a semi-OOC alleged spy ring. And yes, the lines between IC and OOC get fuzzy here: but it's woefully insufficient to say, "I can think of an IC reason I might have done it!"
Even the IC message to Celestial Fury is a thinly veiled discussion of game mechanics, IMHO.
I don't care if it's public or private. That honestly doesn't mean much to me as to whether it's right or wrong. I could privately say someone is a stupid ass nigger, and just because it's private doesn't mean it isn't harassment.
Always give newcomers the benefit of the doubt.
Do not insult or harrass other players
There is a difference between obeying both the spirit and the letter of the rules, and skirting around the edges and rules-lawyering. Like, oh, say, claiming that you are not realm-merging because there was still that lone stronghold left out in the middle of nowhere, and then throwing its duke under the proverbial bus when he merged with a neighbor.Was there a previous incident involving both characters here or just a general dislike of the way something was presumably done?
Lyman/Vellos, I apologize if I am misinterpreting you, but are you saying that you believe what Aaron did was against the rules, and because I failed to report it, therefore it is inadmissible? I apologize if that's not what you meant, but that seems to me to be a rather arbitrary way to remove parts of a case from consideration.
My OOC grumbles actually came after Enri's IC hatred. He learned about Thomas Solari's spying via IC means before I had any OOC knowledge of it happening. I suppose some of Enri's feelings could have rubbed off on me, but it definitely wasn't the other way around. Even if I did not object to it OOCly, Enri still would have done the exact same thing. It wasn't me thinking up an IC excuse after the fact.
Enri is isolating Remi because there is zero trust there. I told Aaron that I disapproved of his actions, hoping that he would stop it if enough people expressed their disapproval to him. Those are two separate channels. I should not have to censor myself just because they happen to point in the same direction.
There's no way to stop spying and it's not against the rules as long as no cheating is involved which isn't the case here and there aren't accusations of it either. Usually characters in suspect in one form of another are given limited roles until their loyalty can be assessed. The part of the Social Contract that would relate to this is:
Does this mean that they can be integrated into the realm right away without a cooling off period? Would it infringe on the rules if their roles were limited?
The more related part of the Social Contract is:
It started of friendly enough, player of Remi sending an OOC msg to player of Enri as an OOC nod from one veteran to another that apparently wasn't reciprocated. I sense that the reason may be related to this:Was there a previous incident involving both characters here or just a general dislike of the way something was presumably done?
What next occured was that both didn't like how things were progressing OOC so both raised a notch until... well, here we are.
I disagree. OOC doesn't excuse IC. If my character plans a rebellion, and people catch on to it. I can't save myself by sending OOC slurs to everyone, and then whining i'm being banned for OOC reasons on top of the IC ones. If there are legitimate IC reasons to persecute someone, the existence of OOC reaons doesn't make the IC reaons any less legitimate. It just adds a potential additional burden of proof, no more.
Spying is something that we must assume as done IC, until proven otherwise. It also has direct IC consequences. And is viewed by the majority as being dishonorable. Characters would therefore have plenty of IC reasons to dislike characters or families suspected of doing it a lot.
Playing in any given realm is not an IR. If you go to a realm where your family is disliked, you must accept the risk that you'll be banned on sight or otherwise marginalized or mistreated.
I mean you've never given any evidence of the behavior. And if it were true, IMHO, that would be a magistrate case in itself. But lacking any evidence, you can't come into an OOC place and expect your assertion to hold any weight. The discussion of semi-OOC spying (and using cross-continental family ties definitely fits that bill given the presumption of world separation), in an OOC forum, is equivalent to you saying, "I have an OOC vendetta" over and over again unless and until you can provide evidence. Predicating IC actions on a form of spying you believe to be "unsportsmanlike," that is, not playing with friends, that is, a violation of the SC, that is, an OOCly negative act... is not okay.
Yes, you should censor yourself. You cannot isolate a character because of your disapproval of a player. To me, it seems like that this is exactly what you have done– though I'll admit the case is very complex, and I'm hardly dead-set in that belief.
Question is one of chronology. If you have an OOC vendetta, it pre-exists, then you add in IC motivation– bad. If something is IC, THEN something OOC occurs, certainly you can continue to act on the IC actions.
Also, from the SC:
"Note that during roleplays, characters can be played as aggressive, as long as it is clear and obvious that the opposite character is the target, not the player behind him."
The right of characters to be aggressive is conditioned on the obviousness of the player's goodwill. To me, Yangfan's goodwill was not obvious. Thus, aggressive acts seem inappropriate. It is not clear that the character is the target. Again, in a case where you reasonably think your actions might be negatively received or believed to have OOC motivations, you must be exceptionally careful to demonstrate goodwill.
Also, I was 99% sure somewhere in the government rules there was a prohibition on banning someone because of their family, but I can't find it now. I wanted to look at the wording in order to respond to this thread, and also Velax' comment. But now I can't find the page for which I was searching. Anybody know what I'm talking about?
Also, I was 99% sure somewhere in the government rules there was a prohibition on banning someone because of their family, but I can't find it now. I wanted to look at the wording in order to respond to this thread, and also Velax' comment. But now I can't find the page for which I was searching. Anybody know what I'm talking about?
Enemy Realm Banning
Sun Oct 16 19:58:21 CEST 2005
Because this has come up and is going to come up again:
My official policy on characters in enemy realms, and especially on banning them is this:
Having a character in some other, even enemy, realm alone should not ever be enough cause for a ban.
Spying, of course, can be grounds for either an IC (if it's roleplayed) or even an OOC (if it is done OOC) ban.
There are some people who enjoy fighting themselves, and can perfectly well seperate their characters. There are many people who might not realize that there is something wrong with this. And, of course, there are the cases of shifting diplomacy, where the friend of yesterday is the enemy of tomorrow.
Give people a chance. Any policy of "immediate ban" is absolutely not within the spirit of the game. It is paranoia, and a kind of paranoia that can easily turn perfectly innocent and good players away from the game, so I don't want it.
If you have reasons to suspect that someone is channeling information to your enemy, by all means use the tools available (ban, fine, message groups, whatever).
Just having a character somewhere else _is fine_. The islands where this is undesired by the game already have a one-character limit, so it can't happen. If the game allows you to put two characters on the island, then the game also allows you to put them in enemy realms.
Yeah, that's it.But that's not what Tom's Position on it is. No immediate bans, but Enri had characters that the new Solari came to spy so he used his tools to start tests.
My point was that BM has a presumption that you shouldn't penalize people for their family. No, that's not even remotely SMA. Neither is giving female characters equality. We do it because it's essential for the game to be fun.
IMHO, yes, we should force players to trust players who have played other characters that their characters distrust.
I'd rather that this whole public spat result in a reboot, where I have a chance to play in a realm and with another player that I've rather liked from afar for awhile.
Yeah, that's it.
My point was that BM has a presumption that you shouldn't penalize people for their family. No, that's not even remotely SMA. Neither is giving female characters equality. We do it because it's essential for the game to be fun.
IMHO, yes, we should force players to trust players who have played other characters that their characters distrust.
As Penchant said, that's not what the rules actually said. I have seen people punished for family ties, I have had characters punished for family ties, and I have punished characters for family ties. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that Tom confirmed on these forums that it was justified to act this way with such notable families as the Solari, the Chénier, etc. You aren't punishing the other just because he had a no-name noble in some enemy realm. You are punishing for what the family has a great reputation of doing. Perhaps even against one of your own family members.
And afaik, women had a lot more rights in the middle ages than in the renaissance. Blood was what mattered. There were many queens and duchesses.
....
I was next to 100% sure Tom actually said the opposite.
And even if he has said that– it doesn't make sense. I'd really like to hear him explain that position. The idea that players are going to be able to separate between "family ties" and "player habits" seems untenable to me.
What I remember Tom saying is the only time insta-bans were permissible is if the same family had several (not one, two, or even three) characters join and commit treason or something similar to the point where it was actually griefing. That said, treating someone with suspicion, including giving them less sensitive military assignments, seems quite reasonable.
One point that's puzzled me in all this:
If Aaron is supposedly this grand spymaster, controlling a web of spies across multiple continents and bringing in information from all corners without any trace...
...why the hell would he create a character himself in a realm to spy in it? Openly, announcing himself to the realm? And if he's spying, who's he reporting to?
Furthermore, just by being in the realm and army, he can see quite a lot of info that could be highly militarily useful. If you really thought he was spying on you right now, why not just get him banned?
My argument is that Yangfan's opinions about Aaron certainly pre-exist Remi's arrival in CE. That he has almost explicitly said in those messages that the orders for Remi are OOC motivated.
I'm on the road, so pardon the brevity of my reply. In response to Yangfan's request, I'll clarify the comment on escalation. From my perspective, Yangfan was grinding a personal axe and privately making an ass of himself. I felt like my character was being put in a poorly constructed IC purgatory as a result. So, I endeavored to return the favor and make Enri's life as miserable as possible through protocol. Constantly requesting orders would just be the beginning. Next, I'd have started asking the marshals for orders and bringing in the rest of the chain of command. Then I'd change classes and wander to the front, just to cause some grief over my super secret spy plans. Stupid and childish? You bet. But warranted, IMHO, for someone who's awfully fond of accusing me of unsporting play—based entirely on an incorrect assumption of who I am or how I play—while dishing it out himself.
But I'd hardly enjoy it, and it would work against my own interets. I'd rather that this whole public spat result in a reboot, where I have a chance to play in a realm and with another player that I've rather liked from afar for awhile.
No, I don't think it's quite reasonable to decide that a new character deserves indefinite drudgery duty, despite his liege's contrary assignment, because you regard the player as engaged in semi-OOC spying. That's not reasonable.
How about both apologize and we call this done? Aaron started off with a respectful and friendly PM after all.+1
Fair enough. I apologize to Aaron for being a jerk to him. That was unwarranted.
The IC conflict is a separate matter, however. If Aaron was a new player, I would be more proactive in giving OOC advice. But Aaron has been playing BM for a while. I'm quite comfortable with saying "your character has a problem, deal with it". If Remi doesn't like his assignment, maybe he could try talking to Enri.
I'll try this, and WOULD HAVE tried this, had it seemed possible that something positive could result. Because showering me with negativity based on very, very faulty assumptions and then telling me that you "really aren't interested in anything (I) have to say" didn't inspire confidence. I made it clear fom the beginning that I was willing to work with you to correct this misperception. I'm very eager to put all of this behind me if you're willing to meet me halfway.
Remi is going to have to do some groveling and endure a lot of hazing if he wants to play for Team CE. I would not expect anything less if I were to, say, make a new character in Sirion. This is a great RP opportunity, Aaron. I recommend that you take advantage of it.
I think Yangfan's already met you halfway.
So now if you go the other half we can call this done.
Sweet. Let's do this. 8)I think we can all agree, this case is closed.