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BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: m2rt on January 06, 2013, 07:47:00 AM
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Summary: Unitless infiltrators should be invisible to scoutings, character pages and region pages.
Details: Infiltrators should be invisible (if they activate the "stealth mode") starting from a skill level of 50% and then have a chance (based on skill level) to be "seen" in the region after the deed is done. For example at turn change if there was crime. (people start looking around and might see somebody unusal. Rumours will get to the lord of the region through serfs.. As a lot of people are in the loop, then it will not happen instantly. If at all... There can be several details shown based on randomness and skill. Like: Name, realm name, Duchy name.) Though infiltrators with units should be visible. The "Stealth mode" should be possible to turn on and off... So you can act like a normal noble every once in a while...
Benefits:
- Adding fun back to infiltrator game.
- Taking OOC knowledge out of the loop. For example, if a foreign noble is seen in a region where somebody got stabbed, then he gets automatically the blame. That makes it real hard to prove that you were not included. Even if you try to RP, then nobody will go along with it.
- Make it possible to actually stay in one realm longer than two assassination attempts...
- To make infiltraitors useful again.
Possible Exploits:
- Infiltraitors used as permament hidden scouters
- Feeling of not getting punished
Solution to both exploits: Make it so that infiltraitors go invisible only after reaching skill level 50%. Then once they are invisible, there is a chance to be "seen" by NPCs. Once you are seen, then there will be a message to lord at turn change. There would be different levels of messages. Like first level would be: "Something fishy is going on and the serfs think that there is a culprit roaming around". Second level would have a realm name. Third Duchy name. And fourth the name of the person... Maybe fifth with a "location" of the culprit allowing the lord a chance to set a trap if he sees the message before infils are gone....
The chance to be seen should depend on several factors. Just passing by should do nothing. But the chance should be higher by: turns staying in one region, scouting, any criminal action you do (based on severity), randomness. Good infil skill should lower the chance. And at turn change everything is calculated and decided if you were "seen" or not.
So instead of having to fear about getting caught, you should fear about getting seen. If you stay in one region for several turns and do illegal things, then there is a chance to be seen and if you were also located. Then if you dont move away, you will be captured by lords serfs if he sets a trap.
Infiltraitor should have a random chance of seeing that people spotted/located him. But that chance should be quite low.
If you are in your own realm, then you would not be "seen" unless you do criminal things...
Just random thoughts on the matter...
It just is so boring to be an infiltrator on peace time, those features would make it quite fun.
"Getting seen" vs "Stealth mode wearing off"
One option is the getting seen feature discussed previously.
Another option would be to make the "Stealth mode" a filled bar, which will get smaller and smaller with passing time and actions committed. For example you activate stealth mode, move to 5 regions away, successfully assault a noble and start running away. Soon the bar will wear off and you will be visible again. The bar regenerates during time and maybe with shopping for new clothes or moving to different areas. The bar is bigger by the skill level...
The wearing off option should be well balanced by not making it too hard for infils to do stuff. Because if you make the criminal actions wearing the bar off too quick, then infils would only be used as scouting tools sitting in a region... But if you make scouting wear off the bar too much too, then it would not serve the purpose. It would not help if the stealth mode is active only two days...
Discuss!
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I love the idea! I want to be an infiltrator when I grow up, and I won't do it without this.
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Infiltrators showing up on region/scout reports defeats the entire purpose of the class. The whole point is to infiltrate. ie sabotage without being seen. If the enemy knows who did it, what's the point?
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Infiltrators showing up on region/scout reports defeats the entire purpose of the class. The whole point is to infiltrate. ie sabotage without being seen. If the enemy knows who did it, what's the point?
+1
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This used to be a feature and I think that Tom is trying to develop the class more in the direction of plausible deniability than actual stealth. So I seriously doubt that this will be accepted.
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It used to be this way and was changed for a reason. Please search for the old discussions and make yourself familiar with the arguments exchanged then.
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It used to be this way and was changed for a reason. Please search for the old discussions and make yourself familiar with the arguments exchanged then.
It didnt used to be this way... There are enough differences to consider it an option.
And even the way it used to be, was a lot more fun.
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And even the way it used to be, was a lot more fun.
Yeah, infiltrators are pretty boring these days. Not much different from any regular noble since there's very little sneaking around behind enemy lines these days.
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I'm still hoping that once there is time to look at such things infiltrators will get revamped into something more like spymasters, dispatching (NPC) underlings to do things on their behalf rather than doing them personally.
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I've always thought the infiltrator as spymaster concept was a brilliant one ever since it was first raised. I do hope there'll be movement in that direction once time allows for it. A spymaster like a spider at the centre of a web of intelligence is a very appealing idea.
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Can anyone post a link to the old posts regarding the changes? I actually thought infiltrators were always invisible and stuff. It must have been like that when I last played. I intend on making more than a few infiltrators too, so it'd be nice to know how everything works now. I tried searching for the post, but I can't find it.
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In a nutshell, infiltrators are no longer invisible. However, the fact that you are an infiltrator is invisible, the subclass does not appear on the character list, even in your own realm. (except to your ruler only, or has this been changed?)
If you do something and you are all alone in a region, then people will be able to connect the dots. You need to have plausible deniability if you want to operate in secret.
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The change happened before the forum opened. The discussion was back on the email list. If anyone had an archive, they could search it.
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The change happened before the forum opened. The discussion was back on the email list. If anyone had an archive, they could search it.
It might be somewhere in my gmail. I'll try to look it up.
Edit: I think this is it but I'm not sure.
In my interpretation of events: Infiltrators were not intended to be the ninjas
that most people considered them to be. When Infiltrator stopped being a class
and became a subclass instead, the class changed to reflect this concept. No
longer are they invisible ninjas. They gained some abilities, and lost some
others.
Whether this change is good or bad depends on who you ask. I've never played
an infil either way, so I don't have any real experience with it.
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This cannot be emphasized enough.
Infiltrators are not ninjas, and were never intended to be. It is understandable that people make the mistake, given all the exposure we are given to the popular myth of the ninja, the silent assassin, the knife in the dark--but that is not what infiltrators are, or were ever meant to be.
There *are* some other proposed abilities for infiltrators that were talked about a while back, but shelved in favour of more important things, like reducing the bug count from (I think) over 300...
I'll see if Tom's interested in reviving some of these in the near-to-medium future; I think some of them would make people really happy with the infiltrator subclass again.
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The change happened before the forum opened. The discussion was back on the email list. If anyone had an archive, they could search it.
:o That long ago? Wow.
If you do something and you are all alone in a region, then people will be able to connect the dots. You need to have plausible deniability if you want to operate in secret.
What exactly is plausible deniability? I read it a lot on the forums, but I didn't get it. Is it just RP related, like saying that you didn't do it or something?
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:o That long ago? Wow.
What exactly is plausible deniability? I read it a lot on the forums, but I didn't get it. Is it just RP related, like saying that you didn't do it or something?
If there's 25 people in the region from 4 different realms, how would they know you did it?
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If there's 25 people in the region from 4 different realms, how would they know you did it?
And how often is that? Mostly its not many nobles in a region which is away from the main "roads". Seriously, its not possible to stay an infiltraitor in a realm which is not at war if you want to remain active. ALL times you will be responsible. As you can see who is in a region even without scouting.
Current way does not make sense to me. If you are going to assassinate somebody, then you will change clothes and hide. Stay away from main roads. Travel alone. Instead of parading around like a normal noble. If a noble can not stop parading, then he can not be infil. Current way just does not make sense to me.
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My infiltrator has stabbed multiple other nobles, and started a couple wars. No one even has a clue that he's an infil, as someone else has always taken the blame for it.
So, yeah, it is very possible. You have to be smart about what you do, and resist the urge to randomly stab someone every time you walk into a new region.
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Don't think Ezio Auditore, think Mata Hari.
And don't expect infils to ever become a class with a high fun to effort ratio... or else everyone would want to be one :)
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Don't think Ezio Auditore, think Mata Hari.
Mata Hari was an informant, I don't think she has been accused of killing anyone.
Rather, think of the Kennedy assassination. Or, to take a more period-appropriate example, of the Princes in the Tower (Richard III). Certainly someone killed them, but it could be any of very many possibilities.
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Varys or Littlefinger from game of thrones.
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Don't think Ezio Auditore, think Mata Hari.
And don't expect infils to ever become a class with a high fun to effort ratio... or else everyone would want to be one :)
Yeah lets take out the popular features of Battlemaster and then wonder why people are quitting this game.
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Varys or Littlefinger from game of thrones.
One cowardly informer and one cowardly awesome player of the game. Rather, think Arya Stark ;)
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technically... ninjas aren't really assassins XD first and foremost they gather info.
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And how often is that?
Never, because 25 nobles in a region makes infil actions quite harder.
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My infiltrator has stabbed multiple other nobles, and started a couple wars. No one even has a clue that he's an infil, as someone else has always taken the blame for it.
Ok Indirik but you should keep in mind that your char trained both infiltrating and swordfighting skills till 80% at the academy, something only a handful of nobles can afford to do. The average infiltrator commits many completely useless infiltration actions because he wants to improve, so your example is a bit the exception.
Regardless, I do not see a huge problem with the way infiltrators work now. It involves more than simple clicking, just as basically everything in battlemaster.
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Well, not quite 80. More like 65 at the time. ;)
I do understand what you mean. But even so, you need to be careful about what you do. Don't act foolishly just because there is something you can do.
Under the old system, infiltration was mostly "train to 60%, then do whatever you want." If you return to invisible infils, you're going to return to that same "train to invisible" threshold for infiltrators.
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Well, not quite 80. More like 65 at the time. ;)
I do understand what you mean. But even so, you need to be careful about what you do. Don't act foolishly just because there is something you can do.
Under the old system, infiltration was mostly "train to 60%, then do whatever you want." If you return to invisible infils, you're going to return to that same "train to invisible" threshold for infiltrators.
Being careful requires doing actions just before turn change. And even that will not guarantee success if the region you are moving into is enemies region. Because if you can be tracked, nobles shall not believe anything. If you are close to the region where someone was attacked and you are only one from external realm. You are to be blamed.
Btw, my infil is 75 - 80% at both skills.
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So make sure you aren't the only foreign noble there. Or escape to a region owned by another realm. Or find an accomplice to help cover your actions. Or wait for a more opportune time.
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So make sure you aren't the only foreign noble there. Or escape to a region owned by another realm. Or find an accomplice to help cover your actions. Or wait for a more opportune time.
In essence that is exactly correct in my opinion, but when I read it I don't know why it just popped into my head, but I though 'Oh sure, take an infil from Hammarsett and one from MI and go assassinate someone from CE. Not like to help much, besides killing both realms.' Atamara reference though, so it's hard to get if you haven't been there. I just can't wait to become an infiltrator though.
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So make sure you aren't the only foreign noble there. Or escape to a region owned by another realm. Or find an accomplice to help cover your actions. Or wait for a more opportune time.
Yeah I have time for that. What happened to being lightweight? If the direction is going that way, then I should just go with it and quit the class I have loved so much in the past. Easier to go with the flow. Simple knight only takes few minutes.
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Or make sure you stir troubles in a realm that wouldn't be listened to even if they bring the case to your judge or ruler.
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Or make sure you stir troubles in a realm that wouldn't be listened to even if they bring the case to your judge or ruler.
Yup. Most realms value their infils and don't just up and ban them if they step out of line. And you know, you can always bribe your government, share your winnings. Just don't get caught too often. :)
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Yeah I have time for that. What happened to being lightweight? If the direction is going that way, then I should just go with it and quit the class I have loved so much in the past. Easier to go with the flow. Simple knight only takes few minutes.
Lightweight applies to simple knights, not to every single class and subclass and title in the game.
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A simple knight is also a lot cheaper. By my estimates training a skill to 70% at an academy costs upwards 2,000 gold, so the requirement of training two skills to such heights as an infiltrator gives the class quite a hefty prerequisite fee, it's practically the cost of an army. Now you're telling me that they're visible and consequentially relegated to using their abilities only in unlikely or even contrived situations? That seems to make them completely not worthwhile, I for one won't be bothering with that class while this is the case.
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Not every class is suitable for every player. Lots of people refuse to be priests, while some people play them exclusively. Some people never play infils, some people always play them. There's lots of stuff in the game. Play whatever you want.
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My disaffection with the infiltrator class owes itself not to a matter of fancy -- on the contrary I have always seen the idea of the infiltrator as fun an intriguing -- but rather a concern regarding it's effectiveness. The long and short of it is that this premium class is rather ineffectual when put into effect, able to hinder only in the short term and with the present state of it's visibility, only mildly successful at that. I should think that from a gameplay perspective more ought to be done to increase the viability of the class and that reinstating the stealthiness of old would be a most prudent means to achieving that end.
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My disaffection with the infiltrator class owes itself not to a matter of fancy -- on the contrary I have always seen the idea of the infiltrator as fun an intriguing -- but rather a concern regarding it's effectiveness. The long and short of it is that this premium class is rather ineffectual when put into effect, able to hinder only in the short term and with the present state of it's visibility, only mildly successful at that. I should think that from a gameplay perspective more ought to be done to increase the viability of the class and that reinstating the stealthiness of old would be a most prudent means to achieving that end.
Right now, there are 13 infiltrators on EC, 9 on Dwilight, 21 on Beluaterra and 14 on FEI. I don't have access to Atamara on the Colonies.
In my opinion, these are reasonable numbers. The class is viable. We wouldn't want or need so much more infiltrators.
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Atamara on the Colonies.
25 and 3.
None of these numbers count paused characters. On some islands, there are a significant number of them.
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Right now, there are 13 infiltrators on EC, 9 on Dwilight, 21 on Beluaterra and 14 on FEI. I don't have access to Atamara on the Colonies.
In my opinion, these are reasonable numbers. The class is viable. We wouldn't want or need so much more infiltrators.
I agree those are reasonable numbers, one thing I am wondering though is how you got them?
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I agree those are reasonable numbers, one thing I am wondering though is how you got them?
http://battlemaster.org/Statistics.Distribution.php
It shows a different island depending which character you are logged in with.
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Right now, there are 13 infiltrators on EC, 9 on Dwilight, 21 on Beluaterra and 14 on FEI. I don't have access to Atamara on the Colonies.
In my opinion, these are reasonable numbers. The class is viable. We wouldn't want or need so much more infiltrators.
That doesn't mean anything. I've had warrior/infiltrators who never performed any infiltrator actions whatsoever, because they didn't have the time and gold to spend months training and that without the training the actions are too risky to be worth it.
The number of total infils does not equal the number of infils on duty.
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That doesn't mean anything. I've had warrior/infiltrators who never performed any infiltrator actions whatsoever, because they didn't have the time and gold to spend months training and that without the training the actions are too risky to be worth it.
Why did you bother taking the hits of the subclass if you had no interest in using it then?
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Why did you bother taking the hits of the subclass if you had no interest in using it then?
The hits? You mean, lower recruitment capacity? I was hiring from the best infantry troops at the time, and didn't have the income to recruit up to my maximum warrior limit. Are there any other?
It also (probably erroneously) made me feel overall safer from capture. And I figured that maybe one day, I'd train, or that, who knows, maybe eventually an occasion would appear where infil acts would be well worth the risks of being untrained (such as a huge army approaching a city and doing some road travel time play).
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The hits? You mean, lower recruitment capacity? I was hiring from the best infantry troops at the time, and didn't have the income to recruit up to my maximum warrior limit. Are there any other?
There's the inability to duel, and back then ineligibility for government positions (or is this still true?).
There may be a few other ones like you, but I'm pretty certain most infiltrators intend to infiltrate. They may not do it every day, but they chose that class for a reason.
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I don't believe I've witnessed a single infiltrator action in the past year. Perhaps that is because they are no longer reported to the entire realm? If not then it suggests to me that the class is unreasonably weak. Of course that is merely based off of my personal experience, but think for yourselves how often you seen infiltrator reports now compared to 5 years ago (if you were around then). They've diminished, that's for sure.
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I don't believe I've witnessed a single infiltrator action in the past year. Perhaps that is because they are no longer reported to the entire realm?
Of course they're not reported to the entire realm. What would be the point of hiding the class then?
On the one hand, you argue for invisibility, but on the other hand you want a report generated every time you do something? I have a hard time grasping what your vision of an infiltrator is.
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I never said that's what I wanted, that's just the way it once was. I remember there used to be realm wide reports when tax gold was pilfered or some noble woke up to an assailant. But if that really is no longer the case than it certainly makes up for loss of invisibility, to some extent at least.
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When your realm was victimized, yes there was. Not sure if there still is...
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I never said that's what I wanted, that's just the way it once was. I remember there used to be realm wide reports when tax gold was pilfered or some noble woke up to an assailant. But if that really is no longer the case than it certainly makes up for loss of invisibility, to some extent at least.
I believe both of those still happen when the infiltrator fails.
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technically... ninjas aren't really assassins XD first and foremost they gather info.
Actually their main purpose was as special forces shock troops.
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So make sure you aren't the only foreign noble there. Or escape to a region owned by another realm. Or find an accomplice to help cover your actions. Or wait for a more opportune time.
That pretty much eliminates the ability to be a behind the lines saboteur during war. Even if there's other foreign nobles around, it will be pretty obvious that the one who's from an enemy realm is not supposed to be there.
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That pretty much eliminates the ability to be a behind the lines saboteur during war. Even if there's other foreign nobles around, it will be pretty obvious that the one who's from an enemy realm is not supposed to be there.
Not everybody does just against people they are at war with.
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Actually their main purpose was as special forces shock troops.
eh... no. they gather info.
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eh... no. they gather info.
No! They fight pirates.
<.<
While I like the idea presented for the current type of infiltrator, I too would prefer it palhased into a type of spymaster role.
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eh... no. they gather info.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja)
You're both right...
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Not everybody does just against people they are at war with.
But that's the best time to do it.
No! They fight pirates.
<.<
While I like the idea presented for the current type of infiltrator, I too would prefer it palhased into a type of spymaster role.
If we do that maybe the current infiltrator abilities should become part of an adventurer class.
eh... no. they gather info.
I've read several books and papers about this and attended lectures.
Most of the information gathering a Ninja would do was little more then standard scouting.
The most effect use of ninjas was to have them infiltrate a besieged castle wearing the uniforms of the defending force then proceed to set fire to everything in sight making it appear that there's a rebellion in the ranks. Once the castle is in a sufficient state of chaos the besieging army would attack.
Ninja were also used to harass army camps depriving the soldiers of sleep and generally hurting moral (new infiltrator ability?)
Ninjas as assassins is their least effective use. There are actually no documented cases of Ninja successfully assassinating any prominent Daimyo or Samurai.
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My understanding was that Infiltrators were NOT meant to be modeled after Ninja.
Half the problem, in my opinion, is in the name. When I see Infiltrator I think of using stealth to get where I should not be. Stealth has largely been removed from the class. Sure, in theory, the Infiltrator is being stealthy as he goes from his camp/lodging within a region to the location of his target withing that same region and back. The problem is that it really does not sound much more stealthy than when a troop loots the tax office. In both cases you have to be the region and everyone can see you are.
I personally love the idea of adventurers being able to pick up some of the cloak and dagger pieces from the old Infiltrator class. As a subclass perhaps. One argument against thee old Infiltrator class was that no noble would ever act in such a way. An Adventurer would I think.
I also like the idea of the spymaster focus for the noble. I have a hard time imagining the mechanics but it sure sounds cool!
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There's the inability to duel, and back then ineligibility for government positions (or is this still true?).
This is still true.
Only 14 of FEI? Interesting. . . .
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I know this is a tangent away from stealthmode, but as far as the spymaster is concerned, what about the ability to send anonymous messages to individuals/groups?
If they themselves cannot be hidden, perhaps they can start to hide the source of information/misinformation they leak?
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I know this is a tangent away from stealthmode, but as far as the spymaster is concerned, what about the ability to send anonymous messages to individuals/groups?
If they themselves cannot be hidden, perhaps they can start to hide the source of information/misinformation they leak?
I like the idea. The question is, would they be able to reply? In RL, they could give the messenger a letter back but it could have been left somewhere instead of a direct deliriving so it could go either way. Maybe an option for the sender.
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In general, anything that undermines the trust in the message system is very undesirable. I'm fairly certain that sending anonymous messages has been discussed before, and rejected.
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In general, anything that undermines the trust in the message system is very undesirable. I'm fairly certain that sending anonymous messages has been discussed before, and rejected.
It has been discussed... but I do not personally remember the outcome.
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In general, anything that undermines the trust in the message system is very undesirable. I'm fairly certain that sending anonymous messages has been discussed before, and rejected.
How is being anonymous undermining trust of the message system?
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I agree. Being able to intercept messages of send a message as another noble could kill trust. Receiving a message with Anonymous as the sender does not.
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I don't remember the entire past conversation about this. But one thing it does, IMO, is create too many possibilities for information to be passed around freely with no consequences. Spying is already easy enough. With this, any time you send a message, it can be anonymously leaked bg anyone who gets is (or any infil). We don't need people being able to anonymously spread information (or disinformation) on such a wide scale.
But that's just my opinion.
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I don't remember the entire past conversation about this. But one thing it does, IMO, is create too many possibilities for information to be passed around freely with no consequences. Spying is already easy enough. With this, any time you send a message, it can be anonymously leaked bg anyone who gets is (or any infil). We don't need people being able to anonymously spread information (or disinformation) on such a wide scale.
But that's just my opinion.
Make a skill based chance for the senders identity to be revealed.
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Discussions like this belong in the Development forum, not in the Feature Request where it's either accepted or rejected with non-substantial modifications.
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Honestly, I dislike infiltrators altogether.
They always come off as gamey. There is almost never a time when they can be taken in a serious IC manner, as everyone always knows who the culprit is. They cannot actually kill anyone, so nobody is actually afraid of infiltrators, they are really just an annoyance. It's is hard to take their class/profession seriously IC because there is convincing way for anyone to RP being an "infiltrator" AND a medieval noble. If anything, infiltrators should be restricted to adventurers, it would make more sense.
If there was a vote taken, I'd just say nix the class altogether. For people who want to play a class different than the vanilla, the game would be a lot better off with more Courtiers or Priests.
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Actually, the idea of moving infiltrator duties to adventurers would be a great idea. Nobles can commission dodgy characters and would provide a great avenue of wealth for daring adventurers. Not to mention the chance of information extraction from capture assassins.
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Adventurers can't do anything with wealth. No units, no banks, nada. Equipment is cheap and by the time they're able to rack up bounties they'd have already had their training taken care of.
Also, apparently "infiltrators are not meant to be ninjas," they are meant to be nobility who stab other nobility to death at dinner parties, like in Clue. No peasant baggers allowed.
What I'd like to see done, which I know will never happen, is assassinations made lethal. This would solve two problems. Firstly, the incongruity between an "assassin," running around, "assassinating" people by wounding them for the week. Secondly, it would add more drama and chaos to the game, helping to deal with the lack of excitement found in many realms. But as I said, that will never happen, as there's a sort of prevalent axiom that character death is bad.
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Also, apparently "infiltrators are not meant to be ninjas," they are meant to be nobility who stab other nobility to death at dinner parties, like in Clue. No peasant baggers allowed.
Except that the game script you get when an assassin attacks is literally a description of him sneaking into your tent at night and trying to slit your throat.
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Except that the game script you get when an assassin attacks is literally a description of him sneaking into your tent at night and trying to slit your throat.
Which makes no sense. I was successful in trying to attack you which is always implied as trying to slit their throat but somehow that didn't kill you, maybe hurt you for a day or two.
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That's quite false. It makes no mention of throat-slittings.
The specific text you get when you are seriously wounded by an infiltrator (ie, the worst it can be), is
The attacker cuts through your defenses, and sinks the blade into your body twice before running away, seriously wounding you.
Even if he catches you sleeping, you always wake up in time to grab a dagger and at least try to defend yourself. Your wounds are body-wounds at worst, not neck-wounds.
And these days, it can even turn out to be not that bad—his blade missed the vital organs, or maybe the blood on your shirt was from a smaller scratch and the major wounds were only in your thigh and shoulder—and you only get a regular wound.
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That's quite false. It makes no mention of throat-slittings.
The specific text you get when you are seriously wounded by an infiltrator (ie, the worst it can be), is
Even if he catches you sleeping, you always wake up in time to grab a dagger and at least try to defend yourself. Your wounds are body-wounds at worst, not neck-wounds.
And these days, it can even turn out to be not that bad—his blade missed the vital organs, or maybe the blood on your shirt was from a smaller scratch and the major wounds were only in your thigh and shoulder—and you only get a regular wound.
Which is stupid. He snuck in your tent and decides he will try to see if he is lucky when randomly stabbing the body instead of throat or head. It it's almost laughable ever he trying to call any infiltrator an assassin when history implies that all infils are idiots and can't ever actually kill someone.
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Which is stupid. He snuck in your tent and decides he will try to see if he is lucky when randomly stabbing the body instead of throat or head. It it's almost laughable ever he trying to call any infiltrator an assassin when history implies that all infils are idiots and can't ever actually kill someone.
No. You woke up. You had a weapon in your hand. He did not have the opportunity to just stab you through the eye when you slept.
In any case, the game never tries to call infiltrators assassins. That's all the players' doing. Just like trying to make them out to be ninjas.
Don't try to put words in the game's mouth, and then claim that the game doesn't fulfill them. That's...just so many kinds of wrong.
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Which is stupid. He snuck in your tent and decides he will try to see if he is lucky when randomly stabbing the body instead of throat or head. It it's almost laughable ever he trying to call any infiltrator an assassin when history implies that all infils are idiots and can't ever actually kill someone.
It's called suspension of disbelief. You have to just go with the flow, and realize that the game makes compromises to keep gameplay going.
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No. You woke up. You had a weapon in your hand. He did not have the opportunity to just stab you through the eye when you slept.
Which is stupid too as it implies every character wakes up in time.
In any case, the game never tries to call infiltrators assassins. That's all the players' doing. Just like trying to make them out to be ninjas.
The official help page on classes states that infiltrators may be able to: carry out assassinations
and those who assassinate are assassins. Also, the ninja thing is based on all the descriptions of the class including the name, supporting ninja like actions.
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That's quite false. It makes no mention of throat-slittings.
The specific text you get when you are seriously wounded by an infiltrator (ie, the worst it can be), is
Even if he catches you sleeping, you always wake up in time to grab a dagger and at least try to defend yourself. Your wounds are body-wounds at worst, not neck-wounds.
And these days, it can even turn out to be not that bad—his blade missed the vital organs, or maybe the blood on your shirt was from a smaller scratch and the major wounds were only in your thigh and shoulder—and you only get a regular wound.
You manage to sneak into his sleeping quarters unnoticed.
Silently, you sneak up on your target, and surprise him.
You quickly put him down for good, seriously wounding him before you make your escape.
How does that implies that he even woke up?
Since an infil can't kill a noble why can he atleast be able to kill a Hero or an advy? People choosing both of these classes know that their characters may die and should be prepared for that. You just add an extra risk.
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That's quite false. It makes no mention of throat-slittings.
You're right, I didn't mean to say that it actually mentions throat slitting, what I am saying is that the game implies that the infiltrator is trying to assassinate you in your sleep. You just happen to always wake up, or the infiltrator is heard by the guards, etc. It is implied that if those things don't happen, the infiltrator is going to kill you in your sleep. He is obviously not trying to sneak into your tent at night, with the goal of waking you up and having a knife fight.
My point is this: they don't fit in. Its awkward. There is no good way to pretend infiltrators are what they are supposed to be as they are currently set up in the game. Nobles who try to assassinate people, are open about it (usually), and have a 100% fail rate.
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You're right, I didn't mean to say that it actually mentions throat slitting, what I am saying is that the game implies that the infiltrator is trying to assassinate you in your sleep. You just happen to always wake up, or the infiltrator is heard by the guards, etc. It is implied that if those things don't happen, the infiltrator is going to kill you in your sleep. He is obviously not trying to sneak into your tent at night, with the goal of waking you up and having a knife fight.
My point is this: they don't fit in. Its awkward. There is no good way to pretend infiltrators are what they are supposed to be as they are currently set up in the game. Nobles who try to assassinate people, are open about it (usually), and have a 100% fail rate.
Stop making assumptions about the fail rate because you are afraid of getting stabbed.
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Stop making assumptions about the fail rate because you are afraid of getting stabbed.
What assumptions am I making? Infiltrators fail at killing people. Characters in the game cannot die. That's not an assumption.
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Stop making assumptions about the fail rate because you are afraid of getting stabbed.
There is no assumption here. The goal is assassination. To kill. It never happens. You fail at achieving this goal %100 of the time. The mechanics do not allow for more than "You hurt him bad and escape without being identified". That is not a successful assassination.
I am not saying that this is bad or unintentional. I admit that I do not like it personally. I want characters, including my own, to die. Die in battle, die by assassination, die of old age. I also know this will not happen. So be it!
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I want characters, including my own, to die.
You will love M&F. It will be wholesale slaughter.
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Which is stupid too as it implies every character wakes up in time.
The official help page on classes states that infiltrators may be able to: carry out assassinations
and those who assassinate are assassins. Also, the ninja thing is based on all the descriptions of the class including the name, supporting ninja like actions.
You manage to sneak into his sleeping quarters unnoticed.
Silently, you sneak up on your target, and surprise him.
You quickly put him down for good, seriously wounding him before you make your escape.
How does that implies that he even woke up?
These are good points. These texts should be changed to clarify what actually happens a little better.
There is no assumption here. The goal is assassination. To kill.
That's very much like saying the goal of looting a city is to destroy it so it can never be rebuilt, or building up a city out of a rural field. You're welcome to say that's your goal all you want, but we all know it's completely, 100% impossible so that makes you a bit of a twit for claiming that to be your goal in the first place.
The game does not make any such assumption. The game's assumption is that you want to seriously injure your target. It's completely, 100% possible to do that.
It's all about your assumptions.
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so that makes you a bit of a twit for claiming that to be your goal in the first place.
A bit insulting, but fine. It is not MY expectation. It is the expectation given by the game text/wiki and ones understanding of reality. Sure, I know very well that infil attacks simply do not kill and as a player I would never expect it to happen. At the same time, the wiki/text conveys, in my opinion, a different message. One of killing. One can also look at this with an IC/OCC split. OOC I know that infiltrators can not kill. IC, I simply have to wonder how in all these years not a single noble has been assassinated.
In the end it does not matter much to me. I do not play infils, the game rocks and I will keep enjoying it. Perhaps the help/text could be streamlined a bit but that is up to the dev team to decide.
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A bit insulting, but fine. It is not MY expectation. It is the expectation given by the game text/wiki and ones understanding of reality.
No. It is not the expectation given by the game text. It is the expectation given by your fellow players.
I would note that the Assault option's text explicitly says:
While you are not a trained assassin, you know enough of both stealth and fighting to ambush someone.
(Emphasis mine.)
Sure, I know very well that infil attacks simply do not kill and as a player I would never expect it to happen. At the same time, the wiki/text conveys, in my opinion, a different message. One of killing. One can also look at this with an IC/OCC split. OOC I know that infiltrators can not kill. IC, I simply have to wonder how in all these years not a single noble has been assassinated.
Find me quotes in the game text and wiki that support this with more than vague allusions to attacking people, and I will reconsider my position.
As it stands, though, I believe you have simply been misled by the many people playing the game who want Infiltrators to be secret shadow ninja assassin killerz.
In the end it does not matter much to me. I do not play infils, the game rocks and I will keep enjoying it. Perhaps the help/text could be streamlined a bit but that is up to the dev team to decide.
I have already added a line to the text an infil sees when successfully assaulting a noble that clarifies that the noble does wake up and attempt to defend him/herself, and clarified in the Wiki that the only actual assassination infiltrators can do is of militia. Not nobles.
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What assumptions am I making? Infiltrators fail at killing people. Characters in the game cannot die. That's not an assumption.
The assumption you are making (and I'm flabbergasted that I actually have to reiterate this) is that infiltrators are in any way intended to be able to kill nobles.
The game does not tell you they can do this. The wiki does not tell you they can do this.
If you believe infiltrators should be able to kill nobles, it is because of an image that the players have built up around them. Not because of anything in the inherent design or presentation of the class.
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No. It is not the expectation given by the game text. It is the expectation given by your fellow players.
I would note that the Assault option's text explicitly says:
(Emphasis mine.)
Find me quotes in the game text and wiki that support this with more than vague allusions to attacking people, and I will reconsider my position.
As it stands, though, I believe you have simply been misled by the many people playing the game who want Infiltrators to be secret shadow ninja assassin killerz.
I have already added a line to the text an infil sees when successfully assaulting a noble that clarifies that the noble does wake up and attempt to defend him/herself, and clarified in the Wiki that the only actual assassination infiltrators can do is of militia. Not nobles.
I stand corrected and guilty as charged. Thank you for enlightening me!
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Ah, the Great Timghthouse. :)
P.S. I was gonna remove the m, but then... I thought better of it.
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Ah, the Great Timghthouse. :)
...That's...kind of unpronounceable. And mostly looks like "Tightmouse."
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...That's...kind of unpronounceable. And mostly looks like "Tightmouse."
What u talking 'bout, Tim, 'tis only 5 consecutive consonants!
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What u talking 'bout, Tim, 'tis only 5 consecutive consonants!
C'mon, it's not like I speak Welsh!
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Apparently twyndyllyngs is a word meaning twins... Longest word without any vowels.
Catchphrase has 6 consecutive and people actually use it, hehe. :)
Does Welsh have a lot of consonants?
I... I didn't know... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=welsh
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Apparently twyndyllyngs is a word meaning twins... Longest word without any vowels.
Don't be silly; it's got 4.
Anyway, it's less about quantity than quality.
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Does Welsh have a lot of consonants?
It depends relatve to what.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str%C4%8D_prst_skrz_krk
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If you believe infiltrators should be able to kill nobles, it is because of an image that the players have built up around them. Not because of anything in the inherent design or presentation of the class.
Contrary to what you and others say, the infiltrator is unquestionably presented as a ninja-class. Infiltrators hunt bounties. Infiltrators assassinate militia. Infiltrators break into tax offices and steal money. I can't think of any aspect of the infiltrator that is not ninja-like. It is therefore consistent to expect the infiltrator to also assassinate nobles; not merely stab them in the leg to keep them in bed for a few days (by the way, how is that not 'ninja'-like too?).
It is far more absurd to believe that, out of thousands of attempts that have occurred to date, not one infiltrator has ever been successful. Sure, you could play some of these failures off by saying "haha, this wound I have inflicted upon my victim will serve as a warning," but it becomes contrived when you have to give the same or similar reasons for thousands of other incidents. How, exactly, does it make sense for these thousands of failed assassinations to have occurred, with thousands of bounties paid out to them?
Essentially, the problem with the infiltrator is that it is not compatible with the game's setting. You deny that "ninja's" can exist in this setting, yet the infiltrator is nothing but one. You do not want player death, yet you add a mechanic which should logically lead to it. On the one hand, you want to restrict these things, but on the other, you add a class which which does not work without them. It's a case of failure to compute, logic.
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The assumption you are making (and I'm flabbergasted that I actually have to reiterate this) is that infiltrators are in any way intended to be able to kill nobles.
The game does not tell you they can do this. The wiki does not tell you they can do this.
If you believe infiltrators should be able to kill nobles, it is because of an image that the players have built up around them. Not because of anything in the inherent design or presentation of the class.
Pretty sure I can find evidence to the contrary snd there have been cases of assassination its juzt that the other player wen t with it by retiring after the attacking roleplaying it as death.
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Pretty sure I can find evidence to the contrary snd there have been cases of assassination its juzt that the other player wen t with it by retiring after the attacking roleplaying it as death.
Yes, I believe there might be between 2 and 5 cases of this happening in the 8-9 years since infiltrators were introduced.
Hardly enough to form a pattern.
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Honestly, I find a bit strange that a noble can die in a death duel, but not stabbed by a infiltrator... Not always, but sometimes would be fun for them to kill the target.
mmm... I think an adventurer can be killed by a infiltrator, but a Hero can die in a infiltrator attack?
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If at any time infiltrators actions can lead to death, it should be mutually risky. If an assassin gains the power to slit your throat in your sleep, the victim should gain the power to parade his head through the town if he fails.
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Honestly, I find a bit strange that a noble can die in a death duel, but not stabbed by a infiltrator... Not always, but sometimes would be fun for them to kill the target.
Fun for the infiltrator? Sure.
Fun for everyone else in the game? Not so much.
Just like it would be fun for me if my character was named Supreme Ruler of Dwilight, and could simply have anyone killed at will. But not so much fun for the rest of Dwilight.
Mortality in BattleMaster is always a voluntary thing, and occurs only in strictly circumscribed conditions.
mmm... I think an adventurer can be killed by a infiltrator, but a Hero can die in a infiltrator attack?
No. No one can be killed by infiltrators. Ever. Period.
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Fun for the infiltrator? Sure.
Fun for everyone else in the game? Not so much.
Just like it would be fun for me if my character was named Supreme Ruler of Dwilight, and could simply have anyone killed at will. But not so much fun for the rest of Dwilight.
Mortality in BattleMaster is always a voluntary thing, and occurs only in strictly circumscribed conditions.
No. No one can be killed by infiltrators. Ever. Period.
I disagree. I have never been an infiltrator yet I have always that it would be better with mortality which other players have also said.
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Yes, I believe there might be between 2 and 5 cases of this happening in the 8-9 years since infiltrators were introduced.
Hardly enough to form a pattern.
The fact that some people were willing to go along with the infiltrators was not with there being evidence to the contrary. I was referring to you saying that the infiltrators intent is never said to kill.
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Contrary to what you and others say, the infiltrator is unquestionably presented as a ninja-class. Infiltrators hunt bounties. Infiltrators assassinate militia. Infiltrators break into tax offices and steal money. I can't think of any aspect of the infiltrator that is not ninja-like. It is therefore consistent to expect the infiltrator to also assassinate nobles; not merely stab them in the leg to keep them in bed for a few days (by the way, how is that not 'ninja'-like too?).
ninja?... I thought they would be more like 'Robin Hood's. ;D ... or as the 'El Zorro': Honourable noble at day, infiltrator at night.
mmm... maybe, when unit-less they could move as adventurers... This would make them a bit less evident!
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ninja?... I thought they would be more like 'Robin Hood's. ;D ... or as the 'El Zorro': Honourable noble at day, infiltrator at night.
Yes; actually, Zorro's not a bad analogy, IMO.
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If at any time infiltrators actions can lead to death, it should be mutually risky. If an assassin gains the power to slit your throat in your sleep, the victim should gain the power to parade his head through the town if he fails.
Isn't it already, to some degree? You wound a noble and often become hunted (assuming you escape). You are first banned and then typically executed if caught. To some extent, it's imbalanced against infiltrators right now; you cannot do any real lasting damage, but you still risk banishment and execution on a regular basis. Sure, the escape chances help quite a lot (I've had infiltrators escape from my dungeons too often... and I was Judge for a month.), but I'd take a drop in escape chances for a shot at lasting effects.
Now, let's go with the idea being presented that there is always a struggle during an assault. Furthermore, going off the text given, we assume the infiltrator is trying to seriously wound the noble. Shouldn't there be a possibility for a failed assault that results in the accidental death of a noble, be it the infiltrator or the victim? I can't imagine that it would never happen that a startled opponent trying to defend himself and someone aiming to do serious, not fatal damage accidentally missed the mark and killed someone. It's not like either of them have the finest control in what sounds like it is supposed to be a fracas in the dark.
Also, on the opposite end of the evidence spectrum, infiltrators are often arrested "with a poisoned dagger under his cloak". What's the poison supposed to do? Make the blade look wet?
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Well infils are fun at the moment and can cause some serious havoc and even change the tides of battles. It does not happen regularly but it happens.
What I would like to see is at least some form of stealth mode since right now it's really obvious who does what and let's be honest, in most islands noone rps anything and they just take the info of scout reports etc to blame the infil.
Since heroes are supposed to die (at least people know this is an option when they choose the class) infils should be able to have a chance at killing them.
Now about the escape option it's cool and all but is not really something you can count on when it breaks every second patch or so especially on testing islands.
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What I would like to see is at least some form of stealth mode since right now it's really obvious who does what and let's be honest, in most islands noone rps anything and they just take the info of scout reports etc to blame the infil.
The point has been beaten to death before, but it is only obvious if you make it obvious. This has nothing to do with RP.
I agree with your other points, btw.
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I found another description that's incongruous with the infiltrator's non-lethal abilities. When you mouse over the 'wanted' bar, on the character fame page, the description reads, "The amount of gold that people have put out to get your head severed from your body," which obviously refers to the value of the bounty for your character. Bounties are mainly awarded for the wounding of characters, rarely for the killing; people do not place bounties with the expectation that the target will be killed. Therefore, stating that it's the intention of the client to see your character killed is grossly misleading.
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On a related note to the original topic/suggestion, sea routes have helped change the infiltrator game. Since you cannot scout into the sea, it makes it nearly impossible to track an infil through water... It also gives every coastal realm a giant back door. Of course, unitless infiltrators also have an advantage since they can ignore much of the actual cost of sea travel.