BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: pcw27 on January 10, 2013, 11:19:01 PM
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Summary: Historically tournaments were typically held as Melees which simulated battles. This could make an interesting new option for tournaments.
Details: to keep it simple the system would work out exactly like normal tournament combat, only using the leadership skill. If we wanted to get fancy there could be a combination of leadership and sword fighting. In the game fluff it could claim that each noble is commanding a squad of lesser gentry.
Benefits: Gives players that have built up their leadership skill a chance to show it off and compete just like players that built up sword fighting or jousting.
Possible Exploits: It might make hosting a tournament to distract from a war more enticing since an event like this might attract Generals or Kings.
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For some reason I do not recall Leadership being much of a focus in the melee events. Sure, the knights were sorted into two groups but, if I recall correctly, the fighting was largely chaotic and a chance for each knight to show off their combat prowess - not there ability to lead troops. I do not even think anyone below the rank of knight even participated. In the end each noble tried to capture as many other nobles as possible to later ransom. Again, focusing on individual combat and not on leading troops. I would love to hear from someone who has studied this in detail though. I very well may be way off.
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A Grand Melee probably looks very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkteEFI-PBs
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A Grand Melee probably looks very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkteEFI-PBs
That is awesome...
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Really? I thought is rather disappointing... I watched a few other clips from the same tournament and I was just plain surprised. Looks like a little too much like football (the American variety). I was also under the impression that knights wore such heavy armor that they could not get up unassisted once downed. I figured such armor would make sprinting less likely. Those guys are crazy tough though. I would be screaming in pain 30 seconds into it!
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Really? I thought is rather disappointing... I watched a few other clips from the same tournament and I was just plain surprised. Looks like a little too much like football (the American variety). I was also under the impression that knights wore such heavy armor that they could not get up unassisted once downed. I figured such armor would make sprinting less likely. Those guys are crazy tough though. I would be screaming in pain 30 seconds into it!
In what way does it look like American football? It looks like people fighting and trying to kill each other to me, which is what battles tend to look like. . . .
As for mobility in armor . . . there are a lot of misconceptions about how hard it was to move in armor. Most all of them are completely and totally untrue. Sure, it's heavy, and if you're not in good shape and have never worn it before, it's going to hinder you a fair bit, and you'll certainly get tired quicker in it, but armor that makes it hard to do the things you need to do in combat (like running) isn't much use for anything besides looking pretty (and there was armor designed only to look pretty and not be used in combat). Knights wearing full armor were surprising mobile.
Videos from my summer vacation, for those wanting to see more actual mass combat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmqMbXcCB1M&list=PL34462A6A7C96B941&index=1 (I don't take part in the fighting, for those wondering).
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Well, I have never worn real life authentic armor. I Would not be surprised if my preconceptions were totally wrong. As far as the football thing goes it is all the mad dashing just to slam into someone and knock them down. It seemed effective though if the goal is indeed to knock them down. I was always under the impression that dehorsing or knocking down an opponent was a valid strategy due to the difficulty of regaining ones feet.
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Bardic, you've apparently never heard of the Battle of Agincourt... that very armor that you're saying isn't as cumbersome as it looks was apparently cumbersome enough to help lead to an English victory thanks to the longbow.
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That was because it was muddy.
And also uphill.
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That was because it was muddy.
And also uphill.
Yeah those to things are kinda huge in battle.
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Yes, and cumbersome, heavy armor doesn't combine real well with that...
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Nor do simple leather boots when the mud is reported to go beyond your shins.
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A Grand Melee probably looks very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkteEFI-PBs
Awesome. Love that song now too.
I think this video supports my idea because that definitely takes some teamwork.
Well, I have never worn real life authentic armor. I Would not be surprised if my preconceptions were totally wrong. As far as the football thing goes it is all the mad dashing just to slam into someone and knock them down. It seemed effective though if the goal is indeed to knock them down. I was always under the impression that dehorsing or knocking down an opponent was a valid strategy due to the difficulty of regaining ones feet.
It would still be hard to get up, but a fallen knight wouldn't be rendered as helpless as a turtle on it's back or anything. A suit of armor weighed between 40 and 60 lbs. So imagine getting up with that much extra weight. It will slow you down but it won't pin you to the ground.
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So how do they decide you're dead in those enactments?
Also, melees were not happening in the same time as the type of tournament we see in BM. I though the game's setting was more going to the Late Medieval period.
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It would still be hard to get up, but a fallen knight wouldn't be rendered as helpless as a turtle on it's back or anything. A suit of armor weighed between 40 and 60 lbs. So imagine getting up with that much extra weight. It will slow you down but it won't pin you to the ground.
What a lot of people seem to forget/neglect is that full suits of armor weren't just mass produced pieces of metal slapped together for anyone to wear. If you were putting an investment into these (which a full suit most certainly was) it was custom tailored to the shape of whomever it was for. In a properly fitted suit of armor, a person could move seamlessly. It wasn't as clunky as so many more modern sources make it out to be.
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So how do they decide you're dead in those enactments?
Also, melees were not happening in the same time as the type of tournament we see in BM. I though the game's setting was more going to the Late Medieval period.
The game's basically an anachronism stew, as long as it's medieval it'll fly.
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It would still be hard to get up, but a fallen knight wouldn't be rendered as helpless as a turtle on it's back or anything. A suit of armor weighed between 40 and 60 lbs. So imagine getting up with that much extra weight. It will slow you down but it won't pin you to the ground.
Don't forget that the weight of the armour is distributed fairly evenly across the body, that the knights wearing it were buff and highly trained. I'm not sure if it would have even slowed them down.
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I'm sure it would have slowed them down. Not to mention on a hot summer day, it would definitely be exhausting to wear. I'm not saying they couldn't move at all, otherwise it would never have been useful in combat. Just that it isn't the end all be all.
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Don't forget that the weight of the armour is distributed fairly evenly across the body, that the knights wearing it were buff and highly trained. I'm not sure if it would have even slowed them down.
Getting knocked down in combat is a bad thing to begin with. Anything that makes it harder to get up puts you in more danger.
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As far as the armor goes, I am dubious of someone wearing true full plate being able to sprint and bounce around like those fellas did. Sure, they were not stuck in slow motion, but there was an impact to mobility. When I was in the Army I could distinctly recall being significantly hindered in full MOPP gear plus Kevlar vest, plus load bearing gear plus weapons. I was never in the best of shape, but good enough for Army standards. I am willing to bet that my accumulated gear weighed significantly less than full plate. Plus, I recall reading many books about knights and distinctly recall some mentioning the difficulty in gaining ones feet after being knocked down. I really wish I could reference specific titles! Perhaps this information IS out of date but it does not mean knights in full plate could sprint and bounce. I would love if you guys could reference your sources. I would love to read them!
As far as the melee goes, I have two points. First, the melee consisted of knights fighting knights. Not knights and their men-at-arms fighting knight and their men-at-arms. Each knight was a part of a team an few likely contributed towards victory via their skill of leadership. Second, while the knights were sorted into teams, the goal of most knights was to make money by capturing other knights and thus gaining ransom, armor, weapons, horses. The video posted was purely a team sport. There were no individual incentives that got in the way of pure teamwork. I imagine that a true melee, as I understand melees, involved some teamwork (not leadership work) and some questionable moves that focused on ensuring I would get a good haul for my efforts.
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Actually, full plate tends to only weigh around 60 pounds and you'd have been training to wear it since your early teens.
And 60 pounds is a lot less than most full army kit. Most full army kit is also quite bulky and not designed specifically for the wearer either.
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I'll be danged. Pretty cool stuff. I also looked at Wikipedia and they clearly stated what you all mentioned. The armor was lighter than most expect. I would love to try some on and really FEEL what it was like. Too bad I am not rich!
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As far as the melee goes, I have two points. First, the melee consisted of knights fighting knights. Not knights and their men-at-arms fighting knight and their men-at-arms. Each knight was a part of a team an few likely contributed towards victory via their skill of leadership. Second, while the knights were sorted into teams, the goal of most knights was to make money by capturing other knights and thus gaining ransom, armor, weapons, horses. The video posted was purely a team sport. There were no individual incentives that got in the way of pure teamwork. I imagine that a true melee, as I understand melees, involved some teamwork (not leadership work) and some questionable moves that focused on ensuring I would get a good haul for my efforts.
I'm not claiming it's a historically accurate idea. Lots of things in the game aren't accurate.
I'll be danged. Pretty cool stuff. I also looked at Wikipedia and they clearly stated what you all mentioned. The armor was lighter than most expect. I would love to try some on and really FEEL what it was like. Too bad I am not rich!
The Higgins armory museum will sometimes let you try on a helmet gorget and breastplate.