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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on February 05, 2013, 07:25:20 PM

Title: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: BattleMaster Server on February 05, 2013, 07:25:20 PM
Summary:Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Violation:Ativity
World:East Continent
Complainer:Joseph Lant (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=30651)
About:Evi Dimi (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=28979)

Full Complaint Text:


   In Perdan a number of characters have been mass banned, myself included, simply for not responding to activity requests half of which time was over the Weekend. That is less than half a week's turn around for responding to a query about activity, which surely shouldn't be being asked anyway.



   It's not like this was a multi-stage action, starting with a Fine or a revocation of an Estate or such, it was an outright Ban over a very short period of time given for response. (The Game only takes players expected to be active (Govt. Members) out after 6 full days, So I'd consider a Week a minimum fair response time for an ordinary player who might be going through a period of inactivity. In my case, I was balls deep in University Exams and travelling over the weekend.)


Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Geronus on February 05, 2013, 07:27:52 PM
Can you please provide supporting evidence in the form of any IG "activity requests" received (including OOC messages if applicable) as well as the text of the ban declarations?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Vellos on February 05, 2013, 07:32:51 PM
Indeed, please provide as much textual evidence as possible.

Also, how many people were banned?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Banning someone for not being active is a slam-dunk IR violation, no matter if it's 5 or 50 days.

Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Draco Tanos on February 05, 2013, 07:39:49 PM
Three people for not responding to any orders (including orders to recruit troops) or inqueries for over 100 days:

Quote
Caeranor Saegarus Griffirtaen 194 days silent, Partora,  0 troops
Hyzenthflay Ahrairah, 204 days silent,  Perdan, 0 troops
Thade Leonidas, 125 days silent,  Castle Ubent, 0 troops

That is why they were banished, not because they were "inactive for five days".  The new General was tired of seeing them soak up tax gold without contributing to the realm in any way.

Can't say I blame him.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 05, 2013, 07:42:09 PM
Good Judge Elisadeath,

My patience as at an end.

Move quickly forth to ban the following knights who fail to answer their betters.  A warrior of Perdan must communicate -- we shall except no less.

Caeranor Saegarus Griffirtaen 194 days silent, Partora,  0 troops


Noble banned!   (1 day, 5 hours ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Elisadeath Cancelot, Judge of Perdan, Dame of Perdan Mines has declared Caeranor Saegarus Griffirtaen, Knight of Perdan Mines an enemy of the realm and will issue a ban on him shortly. She has given the following reason:
You Sir received clear orders from your superiors in order to serve the realm that offers you a home and an income and answered back only with silence. Such nobles are not needed in the realm of Perdan.Seek a fruitful future with nothing in return from yo
[protest options]

Investigating Caeranor Saegarus Griffirtaen, Noble, you find out these interesting facts:

    He has about 435 gold coins and 0 bonds.

The guy never recruited a single troop, he was also investigated, he never answered, he was stacking gold and doing nothing.

Of course and you never ban someone for inactivity because people have a life but he never answered, explained or moved a single figer in the realm. That's a lot of inactivity without a single explanation.


Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 05, 2013, 07:45:11 PM
Tom,

a player that logs in 100 days and thus not going inactive by the game mechanics and never answers a single message ,has time to cash bonds (apparently that's what the report of the investigation shows) but has no time to write a single message informing he can't be active....is a right? because if it is then i am guilty as charged. (I am the one who banned him)
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Atanamir on February 05, 2013, 07:53:09 PM
To explain, I was General before Saul. I had also asked for bans on them, but we waited many time sude to inactivity poissibility.

However, all three of them have had gold cashed on them, I used the Secret Police on two of them once I got King.

Thus, they had also read my orders over the last 100 days and should have recruited when they were told to numerous times.

The ban is fully justified, because the action that broke the law was long before the inactivity conducted. In all three cases.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Geronus on February 05, 2013, 07:55:42 PM
To explain, I was General before Saul. I had also asked for bans on them, but we waited many time sude to inactivity poissibility.

However, all three of them have had gold cashed on them, I used the Secret Police on two of them once I got King.

Thus, they had also read my orders over the last 100 days and should have recruited when they were told to numerous times.

The ban is fully justified, because the action that broke the law was long before the inactivity conducted. In all three cases.

Was any attempt made to contact the characters directly to determine why they were not following orders?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Indirik on February 05, 2013, 08:15:17 PM
How exactly did you determine that they hadn't said anything for 194 days? That's going through a lot of effort to pin a "they don't contribute" label on someone.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2013, 08:16:31 PM
So what you're saying is that you banned them for being active - just not in the way that you wanted them to be?

Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Geronus on February 05, 2013, 08:18:16 PM
How exactly did you determine that they hadn't said anything for 194 days? That's going through a lot of effort to pin a "they don't contribute" label on someone.

I too am curious about this.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 05, 2013, 08:19:51 PM
I think my ban message explains why i banned them.I banned them because they offered nothing to the realm, they followed no order, they answered to no personal message they were sent for weeks (not just days) and they did nothing productive in the realm other than sucking gold.

What is the reason of someone be in a realm and do nothing? The game it self autopsauses the char for inactivity and gives you the option to do it yourself as well if you don't have the time to play it.

When someone stays in the realm for 3 months and answers to no order but keeps sitting in one region doing nothing what kind of service does he provide to it?

It is not a sarcastic question or a philosophical, i am actually asking ...
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 05, 2013, 08:21:04 PM
I too am curious about this.

When you are in a realm for so many days and you are already assigned to an army, you don't follow any orders and you just sit hoarding gold why should you not get banned? Even if they said something to someone it doesn't matter since they never replied to their Marshal, their General or whoever got a position in Perdan.  Do you want this kind of nobles in your realm?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Bael on February 05, 2013, 08:26:40 PM
While I am not inclined to disagree with the actions taken, in the circumstances given, I must wonder why they still had Estates? Could they not have just been kicked out of them? Then they would sit around doing nothing, harming nothing and benefiting nothing.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 05, 2013, 08:27:40 PM
Well with all the honesty i can't say they didn't answer to anyone for 194 days. But both their marshal and Generals reported that they never answered to any of the messages they were sent and the same goes for the orders they were sent.

I guess that if this is not true and the part who reported me can prove i am wrong and he contributed in a any way to the realm or even contacted the Council in any way then i am guilty as charged and i should get punished with the worst of the penalties as i would vote for others as well.

I am not trying to avoid punishment, if i deserve it i should get it.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 05, 2013, 08:27:47 PM
Did you consider simply cutting their revenue source?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Atanamir on February 05, 2013, 08:29:22 PM
Ok again:

They were in the realm. The sat for X time in one City. Nothing else.

They cashed in gold every week. Over this time, the were many orders, by generals, marshals, lieges to do things, like recruit or move etc. - in red tag or even personal messages.

These charcaters never did *anything* to follow the realm hierarchy or say it this way, the players never did anything to play with us.

They gained no single honour pt, nothing. Just read our messages and chose to ignore them.

Therefore they clearely violated the laws, over a much longer time than the autopause period.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 05, 2013, 08:32:17 PM
Did you consider simply cutting their revenue source?

Now there is something i can't answer :/ to that you are absolutely right >.< i can't deny i sometimes think the old ways without considering the new possibilities. It was my fault i didn't ask their respective Lords to deal with it instead of taking action right away.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 05, 2013, 08:33:25 PM
These charcaters never did *anything* to follow the realm hierarchy or say it this way, the players never did anything to play with us.

So why were they troubling you?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 05, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 05, 2013, 08:41:07 PM
what good reason is there not to ban them?

Because you should play as you would play a board game with friends. When I play cards and someone cannot follow the game because they're busy with their kids, then I just play without them. I don't kick them out of the room and shut the door.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 05, 2013, 08:41:49 PM
Because you should play as you would play a board game with friends. When I play cards and someone cannot follow the game because they're busy with their kids, then I just play without them. I don't kick them out of the room and shut the door.

This is not how a realm works.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 05, 2013, 08:44:51 PM
Because you should play as you would play a board game with friends. When I play cards and someone cannot follow the game because they're busy with their kids, then I just play without them. I don't kick them out of the room and shut the door.

If you're playing a game with friends, and one of them insists on being there, but never says a word, never takes his turn, and just sits there, staring at everyone blankly...are you really saying you'd be just fine with him staying there?

This isn't people who are busy with their kids. That would be someone who autopauses after 2 weeks. This is someone who refuses to give up the IC benefits of being in Perdan, but also refuses to take on any of the IC responsibility.

And, again: you have no way to know how often they're actually logging in. They could be logging in once every 2 weeks to avoid autopause. Or they could be logging in 4 times a turn, checking various strategic bits of info, and feeding it to the realm's enemies.

Or they could be logging in 4 times a turn sending loads of private messages back and forth to their co-conspirators, planning a rebellion. They are, after all, hoarding gold in the capital while everyone else goes off to war.

The point is, they're not following orders, and that's why they were banned.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 05, 2013, 08:47:28 PM
This is not how a realm works.

I'm not really a Duke. I just play one on the internet.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 05, 2013, 08:49:09 PM
I'm not really a Duke. I just play one on the internet.

Anaris explained it much better than me.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 05, 2013, 08:53:54 PM
Or they could be logging in 4 times a turn sending loads of private messages back and forth to their co-conspirators, planning a rebellion. They are, after all, hoarding gold in the capital while everyone else goes off to war.

Indeed they could. If they were doing that, though, they would be much better off actually following orders.

If that was the suspicion, then it would be easy to prove. There would be a letter from the king to the judge saying "Ban those people because I suspect they are organising a rebellion."

But that's not what was said. They were banned for failing to answer letters.

I don't oppose banning in general. I don't even oppose banning for spurious reasons. I oppose witch-hunts to get rid of inactive characters.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Geronus on February 05, 2013, 08:59:20 PM
There are acceptable ways to deal with situations like this. I'm trying to ascertain whether this was one of them. Anaris has valid points, but so does Von Genf. I'd also love to see some evidence. Like copies of the private messages Atanamir mentioned. Or did that happen too long ago?

You can ban people for not following orders, but a reasonable effort should be made to be certain that it's not for activity-related reasons. I would expect that to include actions like issuing warnings before issuing punishments and demonstrating a clear and logical escalation while affording the targeted character every opportunity to respond. If you give someone an ultimatum and they don't reply for a week, or they don't reply but are obviously otherwise active (traveling, recruiting, etc.), then punish away. The point is, ask questions first, punish later. Players should be afforded the benefit of the doubt when it comes to anything remotely related to their activity level.

I don't oppose banning in general. I don't even oppose banning for spurious reasons. I oppose witch-hunts to get rid of inactive characters.

Ditto this.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 05, 2013, 09:08:56 PM
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 05, 2013, 09:13:38 PM
I really don't know what more you want people to do before banning characters like this.

I really don't know why people would want to ban characters like this. Maybe there was a time when, due to the tax system, they took money from other people, but that time is long gone. The game is pretty well designed so that they don't matter at all and can be safely ignored.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Dante Silverfire on February 05, 2013, 09:20:00 PM
I really don't know why people would want to ban characters like this. Maybe there was a time when, due to the tax system, they took money from other people, but that time is long gone. The game is pretty well designed so that they don't matter at all and can be safely ignored.

They do take tax from others. If they are holding an estate then they are taking taxes which would otherwise go to another knight or the lord.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Vellos on February 05, 2013, 09:20:08 PM
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2013, 09:21:52 PM
Tom, you have, at multiple times in the past, said that it is acceptable to ban characters who log in, but fail to follow orders.

This is why I asked.

They were clearly active and doing stuff. They were not banned for not doing anything, they were banned for misbehaviour. The IR does not give you the right to act in any way you like without consequences. Its intention is clearly explained - to make sure that OOC takes priority and nobody feels forced to log in if real life is more imporant.

If someone is active, you can ban them for the way they act. Not following orders is a perfectly acceptable ban reason, provided you've made sure that they could have, i.e. it's not just inactivity.

I think the IR is clear in that it refers to OOC activity, not IC activity. Your character does not have a right to be inactive. That's a right of the player, not the character.

Note that just logging in is not enough to establish someone is active in an OOC sense - we've stuff like the quick play link for a reason. That someone logged in yesterday only tells you they had enough time to click two links. But for any periods of reasonable length, you can assume that they had ample opportunity.

And last not least, playing with friends cuts both ways. If you get an important phone call during a board game, you tell the others to wait or go on without you, depending on how long you'll expect it to last.


Wow, that's a lot of words for a few simple facts.

tl;dr: The IR refers to OOC inactivity. If the players are clearly active, then an IC ban based on what their characters do or fail to do is perfectly acceptable.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2013, 09:22:50 PM
You don't have to take away their estates first.

No, you don't. But it's a very simple, very easy way to a) make sure the gold stays with nobles you want to have it and b) give them a kick that just might get them to speak up.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2013, 09:23:07 PM
I'm not really a Duke. I just play one on the internet.

This goes on Facebook right now as the quote of the week. :-)
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 05, 2013, 09:24:49 PM
I really don't know why people would want to ban characters like this. Maybe there was a time when, due to the tax system, they took money from other people, but that time is long gone. The game is pretty well designed so that they don't matter at all and can be safely ignored.

This is somethng in which we agree and i won't deny i did not think of it.

But before i say anything more i want evidence my self from the player who reported me that he was actually working inside the realm and that he answered (even once) explaining his behaviour.
If i had to make the devil's advocate on my self i would even say that one can actually be limited even in messages he receives in order to not become a threat to the realm "spy-talking" but even then what is the point of keeping such a soldier in a realm?

I do not see why he has time to visit the bank but not the recruitment centers for example.He has time to actually walk through the city but not time to answer to his superiors and let them know he has issues that keep him from attending to realm matters.

Anyway, personaly as a Magistrate i can't come to a verdict on my self but i am 50/50 here till i see evidence from the other side proving me wrong , other than "i was inactive for 5 days" , yous tart a case , you better prove it. I said my reasons and i am ready to face their consequences whichever those are.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Bael on February 05, 2013, 09:36:47 PM
This is somethng in which we agree and i won't deny i did not think of it.

But before i say anything more i want evidence my self from the player who reported me that he was actually working inside the realm and that he answered (even once) explaining his behaviour.
If i had to make the devil's advocate on my self i would even say that one can actually be limited even in messages he receives in order to not become a threat to the realm "spy-talking" but even then what is the point of keeping such a soldier in a realm?

I do not see why he has time to visit the bank but not the recruitment centers for example.He has time to actually walk through the city but not time to answer to his superiors and let them know he has issues that keep him from attending to realm matters.

Anyway, personaly as a Magistrate i can't come to a verdict on my self but i am 50/50 here till i see evidence from the other side proving me wrong , other than "i was inactive for 5 days" , yous tart a case , you better prove it. I said my reasons and i am ready to face their consequences whichever those are.

I really wouldn't worry about said person providing any further proof. I doubt it will be forthcoming, somehow. They just wanted to complain about it and hopefully get someone in trouble...
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 05, 2013, 09:39:58 PM
I really don't know why people would want to ban characters like this.

I've already explained other possible dangers they can pose to the realm, vonGenf. Please address those if you want to argue against the actual points I've made, and not just against a straw man.

Gold isn't the only resource a realm has. Information, for one, can sometimes be far, far more valuable.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 05, 2013, 09:40:53 PM
This is why I asked.

They were clearly active and doing stuff. They were not banned for not doing anything, they were banned for misbehaviour. The IR does not give you the right to act in any way you like without consequences. Its intention is clearly explained - to make sure that OOC takes priority and nobody feels forced to log in if real life is more imporant.

If someone is active, you can ban them for the way they act. Not following orders is a perfectly acceptable ban reason, provided you've made sure that they could have, i.e. it's not just inactivity.

I think the IR is clear in that it refers to OOC activity, not IC activity. Your character does not have a right to be inactive. That's a right of the player, not the character.

Note that just logging in is not enough to establish someone is active in an OOC sense - we've stuff like the quick play link for a reason. That someone logged in yesterday only tells you they had enough time to click two links. But for any periods of reasonable length, you can assume that they had ample opportunity.

And last not least, playing with friends cuts both ways. If you get an important phone call during a board game, you tell the others to wait or go on without you, depending on how long you'll expect it to last.


Wow, that's a lot of words for a few simple facts.

tl;dr: The IR refers to OOC inactivity. If the players are clearly active, then an IC ban based on what their characters do or fail to do is perfectly acceptable.

Thanks, Tom.

I'm going to save the link to this post as one of my Useful BattleMaster Links, because there have been a number of times I've wished I could point someone to you saying exactly this.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Indirik on February 06, 2013, 04:02:54 AM
I do not see why he has time to visit the bank but not the recruitment centers for example.
You do realize that everyone gets their taxes in gold, so long as they are in the realm, right?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Chenier on February 06, 2013, 04:28:19 AM
Past clarifications have said the following: Inactivity does not mean immune to persecution for failure to one's duties.

If a knight is just always straggling behind in movement, then sure, that's inactivity. If a knight never responds to letters, nor obeys any orders, then that's not inactivity. He might *also* be inactive, but his inactivity doesn't make him immune from reprisals for his other failings.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 06, 2013, 09:05:52 AM
You do realize that everyone gets their taxes in gold, so long as they are in the realm, right?

Of course and i realize that as i realize it also indicates he hasn't moved a  single finger outside the realm in order to either receive an amount in bonds or in case he did he cashed them.

I can't be entirely sure what orders he received in the length of 6 months that he was in the realm so i just pointed out as another example, i didn't base my ban entirely up to it. (he was searched by the king mostly for possible underground activity due to his suspicious silence and the amount of unused gold  was the only thing that popped up)

Anyway, needless to check every single point as i have messages that prove he was encouraged to explain himself multiple times and he didn't.If he refuses he received such letters i can prove him wrong, if he claims he has answered them then he better be ready to prove it as i am.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Eldargard on February 06, 2013, 10:27:27 AM
You do realize that everyone gets their taxes in gold, so long as they are in the realm, right?

I am not sure what tax rates are there but it is the lack of gold that suggests he had performed financial actions to me. Say he gains a lowly 50 gold per week and he has not spent a penny on troops the whole time (100 days):

100 days/7 = 14.29 weeks
14.29 weeks * 50 gold per week = 714.5 gold earned

I would assume that a noble with no troop expenses to have more than the 450 he did. He put that money somewhere. Into training, to his family, to other nobles, i have no idea. But he took the time to do that and not to respond.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Eldargard on February 06, 2013, 11:24:48 AM
It really is a matter of taste and something that makes one realm different from the other. I think I would prefer to simply kick them from their estate as a first move. If I begin to suspect spying, then I would consider banning. Others might prefer to ban straight away. I do not see anything wrong with either approach.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Draco Tanos on February 06, 2013, 11:39:53 AM
The problem with revoking the estates is that there is nothing to prevent them from snatching the estate right back up (unless the lord uses his or her hours to start destroying/re-partitioning estates, which may screw with their tax income in a negative way).  They could even wait until right before turn change and retake the estate (or another) to make sure they get the gold.

Not to mention that you KNOW they will leave the realm if they're banned.  If their estate is simply revoked, it may annoy them so that they DO start spying on the realm out of anger.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 06, 2013, 12:19:55 PM
The problem with revoking the estates is that there is nothing to prevent them from snatching the estate right back up

Nothing game-mechanical.

Here's how you do it:
And by their act of having taking the estate, they have proven that they are active in an OOC sense.

Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Chenier on February 06, 2013, 12:53:08 PM
What Dracos is saying is that should the guy not have been a spy to begin with, taking punitive action against him considerably increases the odds that he then becomes one out of spite.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: egamma on February 08, 2013, 05:28:10 AM
Tom,
Can you look in the database for the banned characters, to see if they have sent any letters in the past 30 days (prior to the ban)?

I think this is the simplest solution. If your character doesn't send a single letter in a month, then you're not playing a game with friends.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Indirik on February 08, 2013, 05:29:51 AM
...which means half the characters in the game should get banned.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 08, 2013, 08:44:29 AM
Why are we even discussing this for so many days? The guy who made the report didn't even bother to reply to anything or provide any proof.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 08, 2013, 09:01:21 AM
Why are we even discussing this for so many days? The guy who made the report didn't even bother to reply to anything or provide any proof.

Activity on the forum should not be a factor in the magistrates' decision either.

They can only work with what they have, of course. In this case, the relevant in-game messages seem to have been provided.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2013, 09:32:44 AM
Why are we even discussing this for so many days? The guy who made the report didn't even bother to reply to anything or provide any proof.

+1

Activity on the forum should not be a factor in the magistrates' decision either.

It should. If someone doesn't back his case, and the case is not slam-dunk out of itself, then it should be dropped. Why? Because it can't be all that important.


Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Lavigna on February 08, 2013, 09:38:47 AM
for the sake of mentioning it the day he reported me he also sent me an ooc rage msg for the ban  and i encouraged him to back his case on the forum. he never answered no there or here.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 08, 2013, 11:30:14 AM
+1

It should. If someone doesn't back his case, and the case is not slam-dunk out of itself, then it should be dropped. Why? Because it can't be all that important.

Tom, your first reply, sent 13 minutes after the case was posted, was that this was a slam-dunk case.

I'm not saying the magistrates shouldn't render a decision. They have material to base themselves on, and of course they can't base themselves on material they don't have. Is it really worthwhile to pressure them more?
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2013, 11:38:42 AM
Tom, your first reply, sent 13 minutes after the case was posted, was that this was a slam-dunk case.

No, I said that banning someone for being inactive is a slam-dunk case. Whether or not that is what happened here still needs to be sorted out.

Basically, I was saying that murder is illegal, not that O.J. is guilty.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Solari on February 08, 2013, 01:59:23 PM
Basically, I was saying that murder is illegal, not that O.J. is guilty.

I am totally using this line.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Vellos on February 08, 2013, 10:34:23 PM
The Magistrates have a poll running. It'll be done soon-ish.

And by soon-ish, I meant right now.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Vellos on February 08, 2013, 10:36:54 PM
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 09, 2013, 05:43:02 AM
Not a question, but a statement:

We had the same problem with one of those players (who just auto-paused before I got the chance to become Judge) in Outer Tilog, along with a number of others who I did ban for this very reason. I think there is more going on behind the scenes with these guys than simply sitting on gold. In OT we have elections for positions and, almost without fail, when one of them ran they won by a heavy margin without actively campaigning and those who became lords they flocked to and took estates in their regions. In another case one was banned for months, sat as a rogue, and the same day their elected Judge lifted the ban he rejoined the realm. It might be a very good idea to check out these guys and make sure there isn't something more going on than simply sitting around doing nothing.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: egamma on February 09, 2013, 07:17:57 AM
Not a question, but a statement:

We had the same problem with one of those players (who just auto-paused before I got the chance to become Judge) in Outer Tilog, along with a number of others who I did ban for this very reason. I think there is more going on behind the scenes with these guys than simply sitting on gold. In OT we have elections for positions and, almost without fail, when one of them ran they won by a heavy margin without actively campaigning and those who became lords they flocked to and took estates in their regions. In another case one was banned for months, sat as a rogue, and the same day their elected Judge lifted the ban he rejoined the realm. It might be a very good idea to check out these guys and make sure there isn't something more going on than simply sitting around doing nothing.

That's basically an accusation of multi-cheating. Magistrates are not equipped to handle the needed investigation. I suggest you gather up family names and use the old titan reporting system, or send an email to Tom.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Penchant on February 09, 2013, 07:50:19 AM
That's basically an accusation of multi-cheating. Magistrates are not equipped to handle the needed investigation. I suggest you gather up family names and use the old titan reporting system, or send an email to Tom.
I disagree, that was a statement of strange behavior that seems like it might need some looking into.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Indirik on February 09, 2013, 08:13:42 AM
It probably does. So report it to the Titans, who have the tools to deal with it.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 09, 2013, 10:24:40 AM
Egamma, I would never publicly accuse someone of multi-cheating unless I had rock-solid proof (such as a message that was clearly meant to come from another character than the one it was sent by, for example). I will take it to the Titans as you suggest though.
However, as an aside, in the argument earlier it was brought up what harm these characters could possibly do, sitting as they were in the capital doing nothing of note. Well, they can vote in elections.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 09, 2013, 03:47:17 PM
What steelabjur posted was absolutely not an accusation of multicheating. Egamma, it was you who drew that conclusion. He was simply describing behaviour that he saw, and stating that he found it strange.

That much is always OK to do.

However, it is also true that when you see behaviour that raises that many red flags, it's time to call the Titans.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: egamma on February 09, 2013, 05:11:35 PM
Okay, accusation's not really the right word. However, I don't think I'm alone in reaching that conclusion.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Penchant on February 09, 2013, 05:14:25 PM
Okay, accusation's not really the right word. However, I don't think I'm alone in reaching that conclusion.
Evidence implying something needs to looked into is not the same thing as an  accusation and I was thinking clanning myself actually when I read it. (Not an accusation just a statement of my thoughts)
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: vonGenf on February 09, 2013, 07:04:03 PM
However, as an aside, in the argument earlier it was brought up what harm these characters could possibly do, sitting as they were in the capital doing nothing of note. Well, they can vote in elections.

These guys are clearly not inactive.

In fact, they seem to be taking over your realm!

That is certainly reason enough to act.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Geronus on February 09, 2013, 11:09:46 PM
Not a question, but a statement:

We had the same problem with one of those players (who just auto-paused before I got the chance to become Judge) in Outer Tilog, along with a number of others who I did ban for this very reason. I think there is more going on behind the scenes with these guys than simply sitting on gold. In OT we have elections for positions and, almost without fail, when one of them ran they won by a heavy margin without actively campaigning and those who became lords they flocked to and took estates in their regions. In another case one was banned for months, sat as a rogue, and the same day their elected Judge lifted the ban he rejoined the realm. It might be a very good idea to check out these guys and make sure there isn't something more going on than simply sitting around doing nothing.

If it is the same players as the ones who were dealt with in this case, they are the same group that plays in Aurvandil and they have been accused of clanning in the past, to the point that Tom actually force deported some of their characters from Fontan and Aurvandil. What you are describing is basically their normal modus operandi. Good luck my friend. I've not enjoyed any of my dealings with them, in or out of character.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Draco Tanos on February 09, 2013, 11:20:16 PM
I was wondering why those names were familiar! 

I too wish you and your realm the best of luck if it is them.  They are the example as to why clans can be very harmful to the game.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 10, 2013, 01:23:30 AM
I was wondering why those names were familiar! 

I too wish you and your realm the best of luck if it is them.  They are the example as to why clans can be very harmful to the game.

The one who brought this case is the same player who deleted his character to get around the deportation and caused several of the cases related to that incident here, IIRC. I thought I recognized some connection between those involved in my situation and the places and some of the family names involved in the latter case, which makes me glad that I mentioned it.

As for me and my realm, their Judge failed to run this election, which allowed me to take his spot on the council and level several bans against the group with the idea of cutting the problem out of the realm as much as I can (still can't get rid of their Duke, as he controls our capital, but I've got all the other ones involved). they have been oddly quiet while this has been going on (last time one of them got banned they tried to mass protest the Judge).
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: DamnTaffer on February 11, 2013, 02:54:08 AM
The one who brought this case is the same player who deleted his character to get around the deportation and caused several of the cases related to that incident here, IIRC. I thought I recognized some connection between those involved in my situation and the places and some of the family names involved in the latter case, which makes me glad that I mentioned it.

As for me and my realm, their Judge failed to run this election, which allowed me to take his spot on the council and level several bans against the group with the idea of cutting the problem out of the realm as much as I can (still can't get rid of their Duke, as he controls our capital, but I've got all the other ones involved). they have been oddly quiet while this has been going on (last time one of them got banned they tried to mass protest the Judge).

Using OOC beliefs to influence IC Bans? AND admitting to it in the magistrates? Seems to me your using OOC knowledge to exclude a group of players from playing with you. Which is distinctly against the rules.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Draco Tanos on February 11, 2013, 02:56:55 AM
Sounds like one faction of nobles attempting to oust an opposing faction.  Nothing ooc about that.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 11, 2013, 03:02:06 AM
Absolutely.

There is nothing OOC about seeing a group of nobles attempting to silently take over the realm, and trying to stop them from doing so.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: DamnTaffer on February 11, 2013, 03:02:50 AM
Sounds like one faction of nobles attempting to oust an opposing faction.  Nothing ooc about that.

Sounds like another saxon witch hunt to me.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Anaris on February 11, 2013, 03:03:41 AM
Sounds like another saxon witch hunt to me.

If that behaviour is a signature of the Saxons, that's more proof than anything that they're a clan that's bad for the game.

See above, re: "silently taking over the realm".
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: [email protected] on February 11, 2013, 03:10:17 AM
Not to mention that if they were actually playing with us I'd have had nothing IC to ban them for, and wouldn't want to OOC. I don't mind IC conflict and backroom dealings, but you have to occasionally come out onto the balcony and wave a tentacle at the people. Their style of playing is unfriendly in the extreme.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Geronus on February 11, 2013, 06:57:11 AM
Sounds like another saxon witch hunt to me.

It would only be a witch hunt if they were banned solely for being who they are on OOC grounds. Sounds like that's not the case here.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Draco Tanos on February 11, 2013, 07:32:52 AM
If that behaviour is a signature of the Saxons, that's more proof than anything that they're a clan that's bad for the game.

See above, re: "silently taking over the realm".
It most certainly is.  Along with a 100% movement rate when it is something they want and a 0% when it is not.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Penchant on February 11, 2013, 08:35:53 AM
Sounds like another saxon witch hunt to me.
Sounds like someone can't understand that if there is something suggesting exclusive clanning it should be investigated before it becomes a huge problem.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Indirik on February 11, 2013, 02:22:18 PM
We are way off topic on this thread. Since this is a Magistrates case thread, not an open discussion thread, I'm locking it. One the Magistrates should do whatever it is you do to these threads.
Title: Re: Banned for being inactive for 5 Days
Post by: Vellos on February 11, 2013, 08:44:13 PM