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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Ketchum on February 15, 2013, 02:03:08 AM
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As subject title above stated.
I have an issue with the Red Highlighted below.
My character Brock is a Region Lord of Pedrera, a region that belong to Nivemus realm.
In my humble opinion, no realm can RolePlay they recruit another realm region as their personal guard. Currently Perdan Ruler RolePlay his character as recruit Haradrim delegation from Pedrera and Caqueta(Both are Nivemus realm regions). What are your opinion on this?
I try look back all the previous Q and A posts but cannot find anything about "invalidate RolePlay".
Sorry if I ask at wrong place.
Roleplay from Atanamir of Umbar (8 hours, 6 minutes ago)
Message sent to the Rulers of East Continent (7 recipients)
"Let me see King Atanamir!", the old man shouted in the entrance hall of the palace.
The guards and the court counselor of the King were facing an angry old man with his followers, who wanted an audience with King Atanamir.
"The King does not interfere personally with commoners, you won't be granted an audience, no matter how loud you shout, old man!" the royal court counselor replied.
"Old man!? I am Fandor, elder of the tribe of the Haradrim from the plains of Pedrera amd Caqueta in Nivemus. I must insist that you allow us to speak to the King. We are not commoners to him, we are his people. He is the last in the line of Fuinur, our ethnic leader, with whom we came many decades ago to this continent from the Kingdom of Umbar. The House of Umbar is our leader, some of us have followed the House till Perdan, but the majority of us still lives in the plains in the north, now under the banner of Nivemus! I demand an audience with our master!" the old man insisted and spoke proudly towards the counselor.
The royal counselor, confused, left the room and hasted towards the office rooms, where also the office of King Atanamir was. He entered the room.
"My King, I am sorry to disturb, but there is a..."party" that wishes an audience with you. They call themselves Haradrim and claim that you would be their ethnic leader. Their speaker calls himself Fandor. Just tell me what to say and I will send them home again, I don't want to bother you any longer..." the counselor said to Atanamir.
"What?! Fandor!? The Haradrim?! Here, in the palace!? Send them to the Royal Hall at once. I will of course offer them an audience, you fool. These are the people with which my family sailed over to these lands many decades ago, under Fuinur, my father. They are bound to my family, since they of our ethnic origin." Atanamir shouted to the embarassed councelor.
So the Royal Hall got prepared and Atanamir greeted the Haradrim as they entered the hall.
The Haradrim came close to the throne and kneeled down before the King of Perdan.
Atanamir stood up and walked over to the old man in front of them.
"Good old Fandor, how the years have passed, but you still don't need to kneel in front of me. Tell me, servant of my father, what is it that has brought you all so far to the south?" Atanamir asked Fandor. Fandor had been the long time captain of King Fuinur. He was been there when Eleador died, and Kazakh and Avamar fell to Fuinur's troops.
"Sire, it's this...this new realm...Nivemus. They rule over the tribes of the plains, of the Old Rancagua, with an iron fist. They have enslaved many of us for their evil plans of world domination along with the new generation of rulers in Sirion. Everything has changed since you left. The realm that should have become Old Rancagua again has failed. Nivemus is the opposite, it has nothing of the old spirit. Sire, me and these 85 men here have left our homes in Pedrera and Caqueta to come here and ask you to help us. Our young boys get recruited before they can even hold a proper sword and put as auxiliary troops into their armies which they prepare to war Westmoor. They will use them as front line fodder and we fear that we never see them again. Oligarch City, the lands south of Ashforth and even the Omskian peninsula have filled the eyes of the Nivemus "nobility" - in truth mostly former nobles from Sirion who wanted to become something - with greed! Even the last sword carrier, Talius and the Sword of Wisdom, Nolemàcil, does not help us. We have not heard since long from him. Please, help us, great King, for Glinluin, the One Sword is needed again in the North to bring order into the chaos!" Fandor explained desperately to Atanamir.
"Fandor, these are heavy acusations you raise against Nivemus. But I have no reason not to believe you. I will enquire Kronogos Neji about this and demand an explanation. Nivemus was formed as successor state to Old Rancagua and to bring peace and freedom to the humans in the North. This was the pact made in Sirion, I was personally there. If that is the opposite, we will have to act. Also, Old Rancagua was a loyal ally to Perdan. Nivemus never tried to be this, they seem to follow other paths, and surely not the one of humanity. Too long we have been accepting this in the south. Too long. The human race in the North deserves to live in freedom and under their own rule." Atanamir replied. "I will take care of this good Fandor. Your men shall enter my personal guard and serve besides m
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Neither the Magistrates nor the Titans are the "RP Police". No one can "invalidate" someone else's RP, whatever that means. If you think they broke an IR or term of the Social Contract, then you can report to the Titans or Magistrates. (The Magistrates are probably a better choice for non-multi issues.)
Other than that, feel free to counter-RP whatever you want, within the limits of good RP.
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Thanks Indirik. So that clear the way for me to RolePlay those other realm such as Perdan. Oh well. The upcoming war deserve a good dose of RolePlays :)
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You can RP any non-key NPC characters you want, regardless of their realm affiliation. You can RP that a cult of tree-worshiping savages in the Perdan Mines were butchered by local officials who thought they were Sirionite sympathizers. You can RP a group of commoners in Greatbridge who slaughter a traveling circus of Sirionite jugglers. You can RP the actions of the prison guards while you are in the enemy prison.
What you shouldn't do is RP other character's actions, other character's soldiers' actions, highly-placed officials (i.e. the king's manservant, or the judge's head scribe, etc.), or any NPC that someone else created. (Like this Fandor guy that Atanamir has already created. You can't RP his actions without clearing it with Atanamir beforehand, because Atanamir created the character.)
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You can RP any non-key NPC characters you want, regardless of their realm affiliation. You can RP that a cult of tree-worshiping savages in the Perdan Mines were butchered by local officials who thought they were Sirionite sympathizers. You can RP a group of commoners in Greatbridge who slaughter a traveling circus of Sirionite jugglers. You can RP the actions of the prison guards while you are in the enemy prison.
What you shouldn't do is RP other character's actions, other character's soldiers' actions, highly-placed officials (i.e. the king's manservant, or the judge's head scribe, etc.), or any NPC that someone else created. (Like this Fandor guy that Atanamir has already created. You can't RP his actions without clearing it with Atanamir beforehand, because Atanamir created the character.)
Do so with Westmoor and we'll gladly encourage people to set you to ignore.
Indirik, don't encourage people to godmod, thanks.
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There is no "godmod" involved. You don't own every commoner inside the borders of Westmoor. It is perfectly legitimate for *any* noble on the island who is traveling through Westmoor lands to RP the actions of Westmoor commoners, whether or not it agrees with the way that you personally want to portray the peasants of Westmoor. Every peasant of Westmoor does not belong to you, the player, to exclusively RP.
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What Indirik said is true.
You can roleplay any group of NPCs within Westmoor doing any damn thing you want and that's not god-moding (note: spelled that way, not god-modding: "god-mode", like the cheat codes).
What you cannot and must not do is roleplay that this is the norm. In any large group of people, there will be subgroups who are into weird or bad stuff.
And this goes both ways: You, Tanos, cannot roleplay that every single commoner in Westmoor is a good, upstanding, and totally nice person and expect to be believed.
To veer back towards the original topic, though: There is, indeed, an official Wiki page that talks about getting GMs to invalidate roleplays. This is ancient, horrifically out of date, and not remotely relevant to BattleMaster. That part of the document is intended for SpellMaster in its various forms.
I've actually had on my TODO list for a week or so to write a new Wiki page with the actual RP rules, guidelines, and policies for BattleMaster, and make much clearer which parts of the existing page are still current and which parts are there for historical interest only.
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Yes, yes there is godmoding involved. Westmoor has PLENTY of right to determine what's going on in its borders just like Sirion, Nivemus, Perdan, OI, etc all do as well.
And yes, they are mine and they are their duke's and they are their region lord's and they are those of the knight's on whose estate they live. This is feudalism.
However, even ignoring that, Westmoor falls under our jurisdiction. If someone wants to go around RPing what Westmoorians are doing, they should contact myself, the duke, and/or the region lord.
After all, isn't BM supposed to be played as if it's all with friends?
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One other note:
On the same Wiki page that talks about GMs invalidating roleplay, there is some more general advice about RP etiquette that is helpful for dealing with situations where you object to some roleplay someone else has done. It's the section called, "Yes, but..."
So basically, if Player A's roleplay says
Kepler walked through Oligarch, and called out, "Anyone who wants to see this pathetic city burned to the ground, come follow me!"
Immediately, a dozen or more men shouted out in agreement and rallied around the noble. "You see, Westmoor? You see how your very own people hate you?" he cried out.
...you can respond with this:
The clandestine Sirionite infiltration group couldn't believe their good fortune when the traitorous noble rode right into the middle of them and announced that he wanted to burn Oligarch to the ground. Why, they'd been working their way into positions of trust in the city for months just waiting for an opportunity like this! Surely their masters in Sirion would be pleased with them now!
So, in the end, the answer to the question, "Who can invalidate a roleplay?" is, "You can. You just have to be creative."
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Yes, yes there is godmoding involved. Westmoor has PLENTY of right to determine what's going on in its borders just like Sirion, Nivemus, Perdan, OI, etc all do as well.
Tanos, just because peasants "belong" to Westmoor doesn't mean they all like Westmoor and doesn't mean they're all good people.
Obviously, if the loyalty is high and the independence is low, roleplaying that there are bands of separatists all over the place just waiting to rise up is wrong. But you don't get to say that no peasant in Westmoor would do a given thing. That is what's god-moding here.
And yes, they are mine and they are their duke's and they are their region lord's and they are those of the knight's on whose estate they live. This is feudalism.
However, even ignoring that, Westmoor falls under our jurisdiction. If someone wants to go around RPing what Westmoorians are doing, they should contact myself, the duke, and/or the region lord.
After all, isn't BM supposed to be played as if it's all with friends?
Er...yes, but that doesn't mean the game is all about shiny happy people holding hands.
The way you're talking, it sounds like you ought to object to peasants revolting against their Lords when the game does it...because, after all, that's within the Lord's jurisdiction!
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Is it RolePlay will trump the game mechanic statistics at anytime?
As it is, Oberndorf region stats are at prime condition. Worshipful and Core. No burning happening at all.
Roleplay from Nigel De La Fere (34 minutes ago)
Message sent to the Rulers of East Continent (8 recipients)
Nigel entered the lands of Obendorf, a border land of Nivemus, through the main road in the south-west. His first impression was good, the peasants in a small village were speaking happily and everything looked fine. Nigel wondered how come these peasants are ten times more happier than those in Perdan...
...that was his first impression. He walked down the road and hid himself in the bushes without to be seen. He monitored the people close, as something didnt feel right. There were a lot of women and children, but very few men. And the men who were there, formed a group and stood by themselves. Away from the others. But yet closely monitoring what was going on... Every once in a while the women looked at the men with hatred and disgust in their eyes.
A group of peasants walked by and talked among themselves.
"We must be quiet sister, please stop crying, they promised that if we behave that we are happy then we will see father again. They will release him and everything is fine againg..."
Then a young woman started screaming and attacked the men yelling:
"Give my husband back you pigs, I am with child and my husband needs to be with me. Give him back you bastar...." The woman was caught mid speech, she was quickly thrown into a house. Before Nigel could get close, he saw the dead body of the woman carried out of the building. She was put on a carriage and started moving away from the village.
Nigel quickly followed. Ther horse carriage went off the main road. Towards a large hole in the ground. The body was thrown in the hole. Nigel waited the carriage to leave and inspected the hole. He stopped in terror, atleast a hundred dead bodies. Some without heads, some torn into pieces, tortured...
He has seen a lot of terror on Beluaterra, but even the daimons did not dishonour the human bodies like that.
Disgusted with the situation, Nigel moved on deeper into the region. He encountered several of these holes, some freshly covered with dirt. He could only imagine what lies down there...
Soon he noticed that the villages deeper into the region are rather empty. Some houses burnt. He grabbed some locals and tried to question them but everybody was full of fear and disgust towards strangers.
As he was finding a hideout in the forest, he found about a hundred of men and women, everybody able to escape was here. At start the locals tried to attack him but as he loudly explains his origin, they calmed and greeted him happily. It turns out the armies of Nivemus went by the villages and recruited forcefully, those who opposed were killed. People tortured and houses burnt. Some of the people managed to escape though. Others were forced to work on the fields under opression.
Nigel decided to help the poor people out of the region. They decided that after nightfall Nigel turns the attention in the soldiers to himself, makes them chase him and gather in one place so there would be a possibility for the locals to escape towards Westmoor. He did not know if he will survive this, but these people deserve a chance to escape this terror.
Report from Atanamir of Umbar (26 minutes ago)
Message sent to the Rulers of East Continent (7 recipients)
Kronogos Neji,
my investigators have forwarded me following scoutings:
Scribe Note Scout Report (Oberndorf) fresh delete
Scribe Note Scout Report (Tabost) fresh delete
Scribe Note Scout Report (Ashforth) fresh delete
Also, there is being reported to me of killed civilians and enforcement of martial (!) law in Oberndorf. that in so-called times of peace.
Further, forced labour and forced military recruitment have also been reported to be seen in this region.
Also you have an army of 20k CS, which you say, you use against "monster claws"? Or did you recruit all this just now?
I doubt this completely as well as the your statement, that you are not planning an invasion of your neighbouring realms Westmoor and the Obsidian Islands.
For me, that is enough, the Haradrim delegation to Perdan has spoken the truth.
Perdan will soon announce further measures against Nivemus.
Sir Atanamir of Umbar
King of Perdan
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Is it RolePlay will trump the game mechanic statistics at anytime?
No. But, as I have said, just because statistics say everyone's happy doesn't mean it's truly everyone. You can roleplay being able to find that one group of dissidents.
You just can't roleplay them being obvious and common.
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No. But, as I have said, just because statistics say everyone's happy doesn't mean it's truly everyone. You can roleplay being able to find that one group of dissidents.
You just can't roleplay them being obvious and common.
Alright. I accept the statement above. Roleplay is best counter with another Roleplay ;)
I already posted a RolePlay that say bandits wearing Haradrim clothes and tribes and yet granted audience with Perdan King.
Sure someone can RP my region people come complain to his realm palace. I can do the same to discredit my region people who come, as bandit as well as he did. I did not even touch his character or his NPC Fandor at all.
Roleplay from Brock Ketchum (just sent)
Message sent to the Rulers of East Continent (8 recipients)
"My lord, the Haradrim tribe of Pedrera region have something to report." Brock's scribe walks over. There is some of the Haradrim tribe folks following behind closely.
Brock still pondering over recent events and nods his head "Welcome. I am sure you are all here due to some urgent matter."
"My lord. I am Gelderin, elder leader of the Haradrim tribe. The tribe of Haradrim has been happy and cheering under your lordship in Pedrera. We are doing well and we believe my lord will help us to great prosperity.
There are some bandits at Pedrera region recently. Our people together with some militia managed to drive them off and killed a few of them. Unfortunately the surviving bandits managed to make it off with the tribe's clothes and attires. It is nothing of valuable, short of the bandits pretending to be from our Haradrim tribe.
Our militia scout reports that the bandits are heading towards Perdan palace wearing our Haradrim tribes clothes and attires. This is shocking news to us. We hope you can uphold our tribe good name" Gelderin continues.
Brock listening attentively "Elder Gelderin, do not worry. I know this well. No doubt the bandits have made their way to Perdan realm and seeking audience with their King. How hilarious that bandits can fool the King. So now the bandits have been recruited by the King as his Personal Guard. If the historian is to write the truth as it is, they will be laughing as they dry up their parchments."
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Westmoor has PLENTY of right to determine what's going on in its borders just like Sirion, Nivemus, Perdan, OI, etc all do as well.
In general, that is correct. I wouldn't think it would be right for a Sirion noble to walk into Greatbridge and RP that the local constabulary had been ordered to cut the thumbs off all Sirionite nobles. That would be bad.
And yes, they are mine and they are their duke's and they are their region lord's and they are those of the knight's on whose estate they live. This is feudalism.
They are "yours" only in the sense that they owe feudal loyalty to King Jor, and you are the player of King Jor. You, the player, have *no* exclusive right to control each and every action of each and every peasant within the realm of Westmoor. So long as what the other player RPs does not violate any game mechanics, or any specific fact the game is telling you, then they are within their rights as a player to RP it. And since the peasantry of Greatbridge loathes, despises, and positively abhors Sirionites, I wouldn't think that a lone troupe of Sirionites wandering the wild lands of Greatbridge being quietly massacred by the locals would be unrealistic at all.
However, even ignoring that, Westmoor falls under our jurisdiction. If someone wants to go around RPing what Westmoorians are doing, they should contact myself, the duke, and/or the region lord.
That is completely incorrect. You do not own the RP rights to every peasant in the realm. Period.
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All of this seems a bit dodgy to me, to be honest, using RPs in this way, but Ketchum, you've done exactly what you were told not to. Atanamir created Fandor and RPed him as an old servant and friend of his/his father's - someone that was known to him previously as an elder of this Haradrim tribe - and you've come along and RPed him as some random bandit. What now? Will Atanamir RP Gelderin as the bandit who fooled Brock into believing he was a Haradrim Elder?
This tit-for-tat RP cheapens roleplaying, as does the fact that the RP is obviously being created just to suit the wishes of the player writing it, rather than being used to add interest and flavour to the game.
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Ketchum did not RP Fandor's actions in any way. He created a new NPC that tells an alternate version of the events that happened. Who is correct? Fandor? Gelderin? Neither?
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Arguable, but my second point remains. RP should not be used in this tit-for-tat fashion to promote the agenda of the player writing it. It cheapens it.
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I tend to agree with you on that one.
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To veer back towards the original topic, though: There is, indeed, an official Wiki page that talks about getting GMs to invalidate roleplays. This is ancient, horrifically out of date, and not remotely relevant to BattleMaster. That part of the document is intended for SpellMaster in its various forms.
Uh, no it is not. It was originally inspired by SpellMaster, but it is very much intended for BM.
And right now the only GM around is me. Because frankly, we haven't had to officially invalidate a roleplay in at least 5 years and probably longer. I really am not sure if we've ever done it.
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Is it RolePlay will trump the game mechanic statistics at anytime?
No, quite the opposite. See here:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Roleplaying#The_.231_Rule
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This tit-for-tat RP cheapens roleplaying, as does the fact that the RP is obviously being created just to suit the wishes of the player writing it, rather than being used to add interest and flavour to the game.
Which is why I ignore players who do it—literally, I just cease to interact with them in any capacity.
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I agree with Velax on this one. People should not be able to RP more than what the game mechanics say regarding regions that belong to someone else without consent of that region's owner.
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Of all the things to be possessive of, imaginary peasants are probably a bit much. There are thousands of them in each region. I can understand not wanting your soldiers, background nobles, or administrators who are more integral to your character's life being played by other players...but a small band of throwaway peasants? If you aren't willing to let a player use .05% of your entirely expendable population without first signing 4 forms in triplicate...that seems against the 'friends playing with friends' rule.
From my experience, EC is in desperate need of MORE RP. All this "these are my peasants and no one can use them but me" talks just stifle RP further. If people are willing to try and add interest and flavour to the game then work with them.
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Honestly, it is a question of good taste and courtesy. 99% of the time people stay within acceptable bounds in their roleplaying. For the very small minority who do not, the best policy is generally to just ignore them. They already look extremely petty in most cases. No need to lower yourself to their level. In the event that the RP has some political effect, then you may need to counter with your side of the story, while respecting the rule that Tom just linked: Game mechanics always trump RP. If a lord is kicked out of his lordship via a peasant revolt resulting from game mechanics, then that is exactly what happened. You may choose to RP varying reasons as to why it happened, but you cannot RP that it did not happen.
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I agree with Velax on this one. People should not be able to RP more than what the game mechanics say regarding regions that belong to someone else without consent of that region's owner.
Tell that to Aurvandil.
It does make it hard to RP, though. How do you describe a region you're traveling through?
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Honestly, it is a question of good taste and courtesy. 99% of the time people stay within acceptable bounds in their roleplaying. For the very small minority who do not, the best policy is generally to just ignore them. They already look extremely petty in most cases. No need to lower yourself to their level. In the event that the RP has some political effect, then you may need to counter with your side of the story, while respecting the rule that Tom just linked: Game mechanics always trump RP. If a lord is kicked out of his lordship via a peasant revolt resulting from game mechanics, then that is exactly what happened. You may choose to RP varying reasons as to why it happened, but you cannot RP that it did not happen.
Granted I would have ignore his RP. Because he sent to all the rulers and attempt to sway other realms(some political effect), I have to come out with something. Whether the rulers accept our version or their version is another story.
As Indirik states, I try to create an alternate version of the events. In fact, the lands Nivemus currently occupied are devastated by the earlier wars and still recovering. Most of the peasants have flee the lands or died due to the wars.
Now his latest letter say all the tribes relocated to Perdan, another realm. Wow. No problem, just roll with it. I will not do any counter RP anymore to him. It beginning to get clumsy :)
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Tell that to Aurvandil.
It does make it hard to RP, though. How do you describe a region you're traveling through?
Easy. You describe it however you want, but you have to ensure that it is shown to be your character's perspective, rather than an actual state of the region. For example, your character could see a mugging, fight it off, and assume that the region is lawless. This would fit what your character saw of it, but would not say definitively what the state of the region was beyond what your character thought of it as.
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Now his latest letter say all the tribes relocated to Perdan, another realm. Wow. No problem, just roll with it. I will not do any counter RP anymore to him. It beginning to get clumsy :)
Not that I particularly agree with the actions of either side here, but this statement is wrong. Atanamir said the Haradrim migrating to Perdan is one of the terms Nivemus would have to agree to to avoid war, not something that has already happened.
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Easy. You describe it however you want, but you have to ensure that it is shown to be your character's perspective, rather than an actual state of the region. For example, your character could see a mugging, fight it off, and assume that the region is lawless. This would fit what your character saw of it, but would not say definitively what the state of the region was beyond what your character thought of it as.
Harder when someone says, "The castle was made of dung...." or "The local Haradrim tribesmen..."
Which implies points of fact and not only personal experience.
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Harder when someone says, "The castle was made of dung...." or "The local Haradrim tribesmen..."
Which implies points of fact and not only personal experience.
That would indeed be the wrong way to go about it.
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Not that I particularly agree with the actions of either side here, but this statement is wrong. Atanamir said the Haradrim migrating to Perdan is one of the terms Nivemus would have to agree to to avoid war, not something that has already happened.
I didn't realize BM took place in Middle Earth.
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I didn't realize BM took place in Middle Earth.
It's better than Dantooine.
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It's better than Dantooine.
...Fact.
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I didn't realize BM took place in Middle Earth.
I 100% agree– but LOTR references pepper especially old parts of the game. Sirion, for example. Barad as a prefix. Minas Ithil for cryin' out loud.
Beyond EC/Atamara I'm unsure if there are many LOTR references... but certainly on those two, it's kind of endogenous.
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I didn't realize BM took place in Middle Earth.
Hey, at least the references don't ruin the atmosphere. In fact, I found some rather cool, as long as its only done to a limited degree its fine.