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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on February 16, 2013, 07:47:36 PM

Title: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: BattleMaster Server on February 16, 2013, 07:47:36 PM
Summary:Unwarranted OOC insult
Violation:Do not insult or harrass other players
World:Dwilight
Complainer:Kyle Douglass (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=32986)
About:Kiyth (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=33743)

Full Complaint Text:
Letter from Kiyth Ilyrians   (14 hours, 44 minutes ago)

yep totally worth it. because quite frankly you are a douche of a player as well.

Kiyth Ilyrians

Margrave of Flow


  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

----------


I believe that speaks quite clearly for itself. I presume it was meant to be an OOC letter, but came in character.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: The Knight of Ni on February 16, 2013, 08:37:45 PM
In no way was the unwarranted. Kyle has been harrassing players both IC and OOC, and he needed to be told. Yes I will admit I accidentily didn't change it to OOC message type, but in that type of message it is usually common knowledge.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Anaris on February 16, 2013, 08:40:24 PM
In no way was the unwarranted. Kyle has been harrassing players both IC and OOC, and he needed to be told. Yes I will admit I accidentily didn't change it to OOC message type, but in that type of message it is usually common knowledge.

OOC insults are never warranted in BattleMaster.

If "he needed to be told," then what needed to be said was, "Kyle, your harassment of players, both IC and OOC, is getting to be too much, and it needs to stop."

That wasn't what you said. All you did was insult him. And "he started it" is not a valid defense.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Woelfy on February 16, 2013, 09:16:07 PM
My 'harassments' are retaliation for assaults already received. I have not insulted any player directly at all, regardless of how I feel towards them OOC. I have made statements relating my disgust with this !@#$ situation, but I have not been so rude as to call someone that I hardly speak to 'a douche'.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Vellos on February 17, 2013, 01:59:54 AM
The first line of recourse for these conflicts is to be adults and work it out for yourself.

To me, from what I have heard from many sources, it looks like the players in Swordfell cannot, collectively, behave like adults concerning their disputes.

So ANY insults occurring any time recently have really only one remaining recourse (again, given that simply trying to get along doesn't seem to be working for ya'll): the Magistrates.

If Kyle has been being insulting or violated the Social Contract in any way– he should be reported to the magistrates. Sending OOC insults to players is not a solution to OOC insults.

This seems very clear to me as a violation of the social contract.

That doesn't mean that accusations about Kyle's behavior are necessarily wrong: if somebody wants to bring any of his statements or actions up in a separate case, they can if they feel it is necessary.

But definitely this is an SC violation.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Chenier on February 17, 2013, 02:03:01 AM
It does indeed seem like many players in Swordfell can't play together like adults...
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Chenier on February 17, 2013, 02:26:12 AM
I really dislike this complaint. Sure, it's inappropriate behavior to call other players names... but this is so childish. Seriously, imagine a bunch of players playing a board game, and one insults the other, so he calls the guy's wife or mom to make him apologize.

I have a really hard time determining if Kyle filed the complaint because he really feels like he's being bullied (which would justify magistrate intervention), or if he's just trying to take advantage of a player's lapse of judgement to get back at him by using the magistrates as a weapon.

Because seriously, this all sounds like "Mommy, mommy, he called me a 'douche'!"

Stuff is, apparently, seriously messed up in Swordfell right now. I'd need more than a simple out of context ooc letter to make an opinion on the topic. Because it seems like Kyle can't get along with many other players there, and in my book, vulgarity doesn't equate responsibility in player to player conflicts.

Although name-calling should never be done, I can't see myself voting for more than a warning unless a demonstration of bullying can be made.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Vellos on February 17, 2013, 02:32:35 AM
He filed it because he was talking on another thread about how he felt he was being mistreated and I told him that, if he felt that way, he should file a Magistrate's report.

It's worth noting that he didn't call mommy, in your analogy: mommy called him and asked if everything was okay.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Chenier on February 17, 2013, 02:37:55 AM
Yea, I know, I saw that message of yours.

And even if I accepted your interpretation (which fails to convince me), it's still bringing in mommy over name-calling disputes, no matter who initiated contact.

What Swordfell needs is for its players to grow up, not for Magistrates to start playing mommy and to spank whoever is caught saying dirty words.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Indirik on February 17, 2013, 02:41:23 AM
+1
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: egamma on February 17, 2013, 02:51:49 AM
It's really sad that the players have to result to OOC insults. There's no reason for them. It's A GAME, people. If you don't like who you are playing with, either get them to leave (by bans or whatever), or you can leave, or you can use that nifty "ignore" link that is at the bottom of EVERY SINGLE MESSAGE. It's there for a reason.

In any case, it does seem like a pretty clear Social Contract violation. Whether the other players report Wolfey for the same thing is immaterial to this case; as someone said, we're all adults here, and each player can take responsibility for their own actions, and be judged accordingly.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: The Knight of Ni on February 17, 2013, 02:53:56 AM
Out-of-Character from Sevastian Guile   (23 hours, 50 minutes ago)
Really? Was it worth writing the whole realm for your personal quip of 'wit'? Jesus, I am seriously disgusted with the Ooc bull!@#$ from people like you in this realm.

That was the post I was replying to. This was after Bowie got appointed Lord of Alley of Swords and I said OOC "that if I could I would like that appointment" because this feud between Bowie and Sevastian is really funny to watch and occasional put a word in on the side.
Yes Swordfell has been being mean to Sevastian and bullying him. Mostly IC and that's because he tried to take over. I can post a few more OOC letters from him that based on his standards of this message to him being offensive he would find offensive as well, but I don't want to have him locked or anything like that because I do enjoy the political struggle he brings into our realm.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Indirik on February 17, 2013, 03:02:09 AM
So, who's gonna be the bigger man, and just let all this OOC crap go? Dwilight is supposed to be the "Serious" island, not the "Seriously OOC" island. People have been bolted in the past for excessive OOC messaging. If you're getting more than one a week, you're getting way too many.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: egamma on February 17, 2013, 03:04:06 AM
Out-of-Character from Sevastian Guile   (23 hours, 50 minutes ago)
Really? Was it worth writing the whole realm for your personal quip of 'wit'? Jesus, I am seriously disgusted with the Ooc bull!@#$ from people like you in this realm.

That was the post I was replying to. This was after Bowie got appointed Lord of Alley of Swords and I said OOC "that if I could I would like that appointment" because this feud between Bowie and Sevastian is really funny to watch and occasional put a word in on the side.
Yes Swordfell has been being mean to Sevastian and bullying him. Mostly IC and that's because he tried to take over. I can post a few more OOC letters from him that based on his standards of this message to him being offensive he would find offensive as well, but I don't want to have him locked or anything like that because I do enjoy the political struggle he brings into our realm.

Is this relevant to the case against Kiyth? If not, it shouldn't be here.

And it seems to me that there's entirely too much OOC chatter going on in Swordfell. The only time I ever use OOC on Dwilight is:
1. to explain a game mechanic (IE, "go to the politics tab, then click estates")
2. talk about a bug (which are inherently OOC)
3. tell people that I'll be away for a few days

I think the whole realm of Swordfell needs to review the SMA page.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: The Knight of Ni on February 17, 2013, 03:07:01 AM
Oh yes I am the player of Kiyth sorry   :D
I was just explaining the context of the exchange.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Chenier on February 17, 2013, 03:24:15 AM
So, who's gonna be the bigger man, and just let all this OOC crap go? Dwilight is supposed to be the "Serious" island, not the "Seriously OOC" island. People have been bolted in the past for excessive OOC messaging. If you're getting more than one a week, you're getting way too many.

I agree. I think Tom should send an OOC notice to all players of Swordfell, that if anyone continues these OOC disputes IG, they'll be bolted, and that OOC messages will be monitered for a month and are strongly discouraged.

Sending individual warnings to a problem that seems to concern so many people just doesn't seem like the proper way of dealing with the problems of Swordfell. People should just cut out the OOC.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Dishman on February 17, 2013, 05:14:01 AM
I checked my message history, and it seems like I was guilty of about a dozen OOC messages. Mostly relating to working with people on the Spring Opener realm RP and getting it on the wiki. Granted, I'm still getting my feet wet with RP, but if there aren't supposed to be more than 1 OOC a week then I'm not too sure how to coordinate a 5/6 person RP festival.

I knew insults and such were a no-no, but I honestly didn't pay much attention to the OOC part of the SMA wiki (so I would probably have joined in the chatter if I had a reason to). It was a good reminder to check the SMA wiki after the reprimand. Hopefully we all move past this and Swordfell becomes a lesson for Dwilight to not repeat these kinds of shenanigans.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Indirik on February 17, 2013, 05:23:36 AM
Do you *need* OOC coordination? Can't you coordinate IC? Can you do it via personal messages with those involved? Damn near *anything* can be handled via IC messages.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Dishman on February 17, 2013, 05:51:15 AM
Do you *need* OOC coordination? Can't you coordinate IC? Can you do it via personal messages with those involved? Damn near *anything* can be handled via IC messages.

I used OOC personal messages to avoid powergaming certain scenes and to figure out updates on the wiki. I've only had a few realm-wide OOC's (at least in my message history), those relating to mechanics or RP etiquette. There were probably more when the realm first started, but those have been buried in IC stuff and lost.

I know the reprimand wasn't focused at me, per se (at least I hope not). I'm just saying it's easy to lose focus on SMA. I just want everyone to learn and move on. I think there is a lot of potential in Swordfell, and I'd hate to see everyone jump ship because of hurt feelings and slips of judgement.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Velax on February 17, 2013, 06:11:11 AM
I agree with Chenier. This all seems extremely childish and immature. If you're playing a game with friends, and things get a bit heated and one of them calls you a douche, do you run to the police to tell them? Your parents? Their parents? The manager of the game store you're playing in? Or do you deal with it and move the hell on?
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Geronus on February 17, 2013, 07:22:10 AM
I agree with Chenier. This all seems extremely childish and immature. If you're playing a game with friends, and things get a bit heated and one of them calls you a douche, do you run to the police to tell them? Your parents? Their parents? The manager of the game store you're playing in? Or do you deal with it and move the hell on?

I have to agree as well. The atmosphere in Swordfell seems to be downright poisonous. This is the second case we've gotten concerning Swordfell, and then there was the locked Q&A thread about OOC messages threatening Titan reports. Basically this is the third time in a month we've had something come up from Swordfell.

If you ask me, this is a problem that warrants Titan scrutiny. We can't go through the realm's message history. They can, and beyond that they can post warnings to the entire realm, which to my mind is entirely appropriate at this point; these people need a major wake up call.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: The Knight of Ni on February 17, 2013, 09:00:22 AM
The magistrates or titans or someone has posted a message to Swordfell, we will try to improve as will I. Let's just drop this and move on.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Vellos on February 17, 2013, 09:59:37 AM
Can we see what the Titans posted? We can at least put it here "for future reference." All too often Titan judgements are just lost.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Velax on February 17, 2013, 11:47:54 AM
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3666.msg94917.html#msg94917
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Lavigna on February 17, 2013, 02:08:10 PM

To me, from what I have heard from many sources, it looks like the players in Swordfell cannot, collectively, behave like adults concerning their disputes.

This is ABSOLUTELY true. It is the most frustrating realm i 've joined in BM.The ammount of OOC is so high that ending in ooc insults as well was simply expected.

There are days that the new messages are 20 ooc ones VS 1 IG. I can't hide you i was happy to see that the Titans gave the whole realm a reprimand for that.

It has to stop one way or another , insults and sarcastic ooc messages fly all over the realm and it seems to me that this realm has absolutely no future in changing as long as the same players are in it without showing the minimum effort to solve this situation.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Pike on February 17, 2013, 04:05:07 PM
My 'harassments' are retaliation for assaults already received. I have not insulted any player directly at all, regardless of how I feel towards them OOC. I have made statements relating my disgust with this !@#$ situation, but I have not been so rude as to call someone that I hardly speak to 'a douche'.
Yet you have traded insults and name calling by questiong peoples since of logic and intelligence both IC and OOC.  I have some messages in here which show you being quite unkind.  To call you "a Douche" is just another persons opinion of the same problem.  You keep on saying how all your actions are retaliation yet when people retalliate against you you call foul.


There are days that the new messages are 20 ooc ones VS 1 IG. I can't hide you i was happy to see that the Titans gave the whole realm a reprimand for that.
I did a search on my browser and only had 100 hits for Out-of-Character(first line of OOC meeage) in the past 30 days.
So how do you get the 20 vs 1 ratio?
I will not argue that Swordfell has its issue.  I will not argue that Sevastian/Woefly has gotten some harassment for the way he plays.  Though I would say he dishes out as much as he gets.

I think the realm has had 2 or possible 3 people that have taken the OOC business to a all time high.  That are the character of Bowie, Sevastaian, and Kiyth and I am sure Abbigial will get tossed in here as well.  All of it centers around one major issue and problem though and that is the differeince between Sevastian and others points of view.  While this disagreement is enjoyable at times when it resorts to name calling either IC or OOC it starts going bad plain and simple.  Sevastian is a jerk of a character to work with and I have accepted that and do my best to deal with it IC as we all should.  Yet when he complains about him being "harrased" IC I am confused be cause he can not accept that he is being retaliated against just like he is doing.

*Moderator note: Please keep IC and OOC conflicts separate and refrain from personal attacks.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Woelfy on February 17, 2013, 04:11:24 PM
I'm not going to bother responding to all of that, because it's purely your opinion. My character is a rude, power hungry, Lurian duke. Yeah, he's going to insult people who act like idiots. Deal with it IG. There are very effective ways to deal with a nasty duke. You and the remainder of your cronies just haven't found them yet.

Yeah, I am an !@#$%^& of a person, especially if i dont like you. !@#$, I threaten my friends regularly with a balcony and a rope. I freely admit that I'm a jerk before anyone can accuse me of it. Bringing it up on here or irc is totally fine by me.

But keep it out of the game.

Moderated.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Pike on February 17, 2013, 04:36:59 PM
I have been dealing with Sevastian IC and Woefly OOC.

I have seperated it.  Abbigal is dealing with Sevasitan in Swordfell and I am doing it here with you here.

I have not been whining nonstop.  Just every time you try and play the victim.

Sevastian deserves what he is getting IC for what he does IC. 

You are being called names OOC as that is how you are acting OOC

Moderated.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Geronus on February 17, 2013, 05:14:46 PM
Yeah OK, that's quite enough of that. Your posts will be moderated. Don't make me do it again.

Keep this discussion on topic. The topic, right now, should be "how can we patch things up and improve the atmosphere of Swordfell for everyone?" Because seriously, the defendant is not the only one in this thread in danger of getting his or her account locked if things continue this way.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Woelfy on February 17, 2013, 05:27:55 PM
Apologies for my quip. I'm pretty livid, and couldn't help it. Now my post seems unfounded, can we just have this last tangent deleted? It's like you said Geronus, it's irrelevant to where the conversation should be.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Indirik on February 17, 2013, 05:32:38 PM
This thread is NOT another place for you people to continue your OOC rants at each other. Keep it civil, keep it polite, or just put each other on ignore, and move on.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Geronus on February 17, 2013, 05:34:16 PM
I chose not to delete all the replies because I think it serves as an excellent example of just how wrong things are going in Swordfell at present. If you want to delete or modify your own posts, be my guest.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Woelfy on February 17, 2013, 05:36:39 PM
IG, I already have though. The original post isn't about either Abbigal or Bowie.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Ironsides on February 17, 2013, 06:16:38 PM
The topic, right now, should be "how can we patch things up and improve the atmosphere of Swordfell for everyone?" Because seriously, the defendant is not the only one in this thread in danger of getting his or her account locked if things continue this way.

The central cause of the issue is that Swordfell was created for us to all play together and create something new and fun, as we designed it, only to have a foot come and kick over our sand castle.

Everything stems from that.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Woelfy on February 17, 2013, 06:39:07 PM
The central cause of the issue is that Swordfell was created for us to all play together and create something new and fun, as we designed it, only to have a foot come and kick over our sand castle.

Everything stems from that.

No, the issue is the fact that the Morekian portion of the colonists refuse to accept the Lurian colonists as equal members. Your character made promises that you turned right around and broke. That's where Sevastian got his ire raised. Since he got protested out of office, he has been far more mellow. But you wouldn't know that because you aren't someone he communicates with.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Indirik on February 17, 2013, 06:44:39 PM
You're both wrong.

The central cause of the problem is that the players in this realm obviously cannot play nicely together. IMNSHO, you guys should both leave the realm, and move on. Or maybe we should count messages, and force-deport the top 5 offenders. Because it's obvious that you people have no intention of attempting to work together to solve the problem.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Vellos on February 17, 2013, 08:49:16 PM
The central cause of the issue is that Swordfell was created for us to all play together and create something new and fun, as we designed it, only to have a foot come and kick over our sand castle.

Everything stems from that.

BULL!@#$
[/b]

Realms are created for IC motivations for characters.

The attitude that you have an OOC right to that specific realm or a specific IC manifestation of it is the source of the problem. And as best I can tell, a lot of you all have that destructively entitled attitude– and Kyle gets a really inappropriate level of glee kicking over the sandcastle you illicitly built on false and damaging assumptions.

A plague on both your houses.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Woelfy on February 17, 2013, 09:30:47 PM
My level of glee is only inappropriate when I think about the fact that Sevastian kicked over Bowie's sandcastle.

But....yup
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Pike on February 17, 2013, 09:54:37 PM
You seem to have the same amount of glee kicking over every sandcastle that is not your own.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: Solari on February 17, 2013, 10:15:08 PM
Please, everyone who is not a Magistrate or contributing something meaningful to the case itself, can it.
Title: Re: Unwarranted OOC insult
Post by: egamma on February 18, 2013, 12:55:19 AM
Any objections to me locking the thread?