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BattleMaster => Locals => Atamara => Topic started by: Dante Silverfire on February 19, 2013, 08:15:46 AM
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Hear Ye, Hear Ye! The Great and Bountiful Phoenix Empire has been founded by the realm of Coria. Merlin Silverfire, King of Coria, has assumed the title of first "Princeps" of this new Empire and asked all realms of Atamara interested in joining his new power-bloc to apply for admission into the empire. Will this new Empire be a force of good or a force of evil? Who will join this empire, is there even any support from the rulers of Atamara? Will this empire manage to provide a balancing force for the CE/Tara Federation and allies? Will this empire actually overpower the CE/Tara Federation? Will conflict occur between Coria and her allies now that Coria has formally demonstrated that it will not simply be a puppet of the Cagilan Empire?
The time of reckoning for Atamara has come. Is this the last chance to prevent the hegemony of CE from consuming all of Atamara? Is it already too late? That my friends, is up to you, the others of Atamara and abroad. If you will support Coria and seek to join this new empire, all are welcome and encouraged to create a character in Coria or to prod their realm into joining this new Empire. Whether or not this empire ends in failure or success, Coria will lead the charge, alone or with supporters.
Below is the announcement to all rulers of Atamara. The charter for the empire can be found here: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/index.php/Phoenix_Empire/Phoenix_Charter (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/index.php/Phoenix_Empire/Phoenix_Charter)
Letter from Merlin Silverfire (just sent)
Message sent to the Rulers of Atamara (14 recipients)
Assembled Rulers of Atamara,
I request that all nobles of your realm be provided with a transcript of this letter, so that there will not be any confusion as to the purpose and terms of my proposal.
Assembled Rulers, My fellow nobles of Atamara,
Today, I am proud to announce the foundation of the Phoenix Empire. I have included a copy of the charter with this letter: Phoenix_Empire/Phoenix_Charter This Empire will be an institution which will stand up for honorable conduct in wars and inter-realm relations. The purpose of the Empire is to oppose attempts to deny sovereignty to any realm on Atamara, whether they be members of the Empire or not. It is the goal of this empire to unite the continent behind the prevention of any realm seeking to impose hegemony over the realms of Atamara, and the empire will be a force by which those weaker realms may stand together against such action.
The Empire is NOT a political institution which will bind all of its members to perpetual peace and alliance, but instead promote the conduct of honorable wars and conflict for both its members and those who are outside of the empire. When joining the empire, realms agree to conduct their wars in an honorable manner as outlined within the charter. I do expect that membership in the empire will perhaps build new friendships where once there were none, as realms choose to stand together upon certain ideals, but that is not the express purpose of this institution.
With this foundation, Coria will take the forefront in leading Atamara into a new age of greatness and put behind us the times where the strong simply impugned upon the weak without opposition. The Empire will provide a balance and structure that has been needed upon Atamara for some time.
Peaceful joining of the empire will be conducted by application of a realm’s leader to the Imperial Senate through the Princeps. By virtue of foundation of the Empire, I hereby assume the duties as first and founding Princeps of the Phoenix Empire. I will carry out my first term immediately and until such time that the Imperial Senate convenes its first meeting and can vote on a princeps. Normally, application to the Phoenix Empire will allow entrance as only a member level realm. However, by virtue of this foundation, I am convening an initial application period for joining Coria as founding members of the Phoenix Empire. Every realm on Atamara is open to apply, and all realms which have been approved to join the Empire by one month from today will begin as “Partner realms” of the Phoenix Empire. All future applicants will begin as “Member realms.” In addition, for the next week, I will accept requests for revision of the charter. Any realm whether they apply or not is allowed to make such requests, but the charter will be considered final at the end of a week from today.
Finally, let this be a message of honor and appeal to the nobles of Atamara. Encourage your realms to stand up for what you believe in and join this empire if you believe realms should be treated with respect and their sovereignty not be impugned by other realms. And if you truly believe this and yet are not treated with the respect you deserve, all of those who agree with Coria’s ideals in this manner will be accepted within Coria or as allies and friends of Coria going forward.
His Imperial Majesty,
Merlin Silverfire
Princeps Imperatus and King of Coria
Duke of Frekpotis
Margrave of Barad Falas
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Thumbs up!
-KK :)
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From an outsider perspective, I have to say that this looks like the best possible response to the angst about prolonged peace expressed in the "The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)". Congrats!
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Main issue is that as it's put in the op, there are pretty much no reasons to any realm to join it: in order to protect every realm sovereignity Coria seems to be asking them to first renounce it by subsideing to the Corian rule
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Main issue is that as it's put in the op, there are pretty much no reasons to any realm to join it: in order to protect every realm sovereignity Coria seems to be asking them to first renounce it by subsideing to the Corian rule
Which is not different from "The" other Empire...
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You misspelled "Princess". ;)
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I appriciate any Duke/Duchess who does something other than trying to sit on the income forever and ever (then again I think there should be a fame point for every hostile seccession), but I have to say I can not see this happening. Way too fast a movement without apparently even securing the change to monarchy first, and when the monarch is asking the Queen of Carelia to speak on his behalf to Strombran and Suville to join in alliance, well..
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Yeah I think nothing will come of this.
It's hard to understand what the benefit of it is.
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I can think many good things coming from this :D
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Yeah I think nothing will come of this.
It's hard to understand what the benefit of it is.
Depends who you ask. If Darka joins it, will Coria suddenly side against CE/Tara? Immense benefit for Darka right there. The remnants of Eston? If they join they could probably wipe their asses with the treaty CE forced on them.
Caergoth and Suville join? Change sides in the war as a result? Heck, just might make things interesting again. With the charter it's a heck of a lot better than what CE seems to be offering everyone.
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I think what a lot of people fail to grasp is the ability to unite a diverse group of realms that this empire brings to the table. They need not always be friends and allies, but they can unite behind a common cause. After uniting behind a single cause they can unite behind other issues.
I am confident that the Phoenix Empire will be a success as long as Coria remains with full strength behind it. The question is, whether Merlin has the capability to pull together his realm behind his dramatic and fast changes to realm policies. If he can do that, then he'll be able to easily operate as Princeps of the Phoenix Empire.
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I think your success will depend on who else you can bring to the table, and how effectively you can defend the members.
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I think your success will depend on who else you can bring to the table, and how effectively you can defend the members.
Which, considering lots of people still hate the Empire and Coria has probably one of the three best military hierarchies on Atamara, they could be wildly successful
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That is possible. Coria hasn't been tested in battle in quite a while, and never on its own. If they have to face down CE/Tara/Tal, it could be quite interesting. At that point it will also depend on who they get to join them.
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That is possible. Coria hasn't been tested in battle in quite a while, and never on its own. If they have to face down CE/Tara/Tal, it could be quite interesting. At that point it will also depend on who they get to join them.
Yes, but as previously mentioned, if they can rally the remains of the North, including Darka and the Barony, things could get interesting. Should they bring in the realms shattered by this war, as well, they can do quite well.
But yes. There is a long way to go before this Empire becomes... Well, an Empire.
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I think what a lot of people fail to grasp is the ability to unite a diverse group of realms that this empire brings to the table. They need not always be friends and allies, but they can unite behind a common cause. After uniting behind a single cause they can unite behind other issues.
I am confident that the Phoenix Empire will be a success as long as Coria remains with full strength behind it. The question is, whether Merlin has the capability to pull together his realm behind his dramatic and fast changes to realm policies. If he can do that, then he'll be able to easily operate as Princeps of the Phoenix Empire.
It all sounds very grandiose, but I have doubts about Coria's ability to back this up. It sounds like you are trying to recreate the anti-Cagilan Alliance as a Corian Empire. Props for the opportunism this demonstrates, but I doubt you'll get salty old codgers like Sordnaz and KK to sign away their rights unless it is purely for the purpose of getting Coria to help them fight the Empire. And that, as jaune pointed out, is the real question: What do you do if Darka up and joins you, and they're the only ones?
If the situation weren't desperate, I don't think anyone would necessarily be inclined to join you. The rulers of Atamara are by and large lazy and extremely self-interested, or at least that's my opinion of most of them from the time when I also was a ruler. These qualities are not ones that recommend themselves to being swayed by the kind of semi-messianic rhetoric you appear to be employing ("Come my children, Coria can save you all!"). If realms join you, it will be for selfish or manipulative purposes, as would be the case if Darka decided to join up.
The only way I see this working is if you're able to package and sell this less as an Empire that you will have to mortgage your sovereignty to join than as a sort of anti-Cagilan security guarantee. Basically get the entire island to join into a defensive alliance that is specifically against the Cagilan Empire. Then they keep on doing what they want, and rely on the idea of an island-wide alliance to deter the Cagilans from interfering in their affairs. I don't know if you can sell that though if the price of joining is too high.
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Will this empire manage to provide a balancing force for the CE/Tara Federation and allies? Will this empire actually overpower the CE/Tara Federation?
Is this the last chance to prevent the hegemony of CE from consuming all of Atamara?
Way to come late to the party, Coria. We had something trying to do this about a year ago and it was called THE NORTHERN DAMN ALLIANCE.
But in all seriousness: cool. I would've picked a better name than Phoenix Empire ;) But I'm excited to see what can come of this. I am interested to see if Merlin's slick/slimy reputation will hinder his ability to score the first couple crucial members to the Empire.
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Way to come late to the party, Coria. We had something trying to do this about a year ago and it was called THE NORTHERN DAMN ALLIANCE.
+1
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Way to come late to the party, Coria. We had something trying to do this about a year ago and it was called THE NORTHERN DAMN ALLIANCE
+2
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The only way I see this working is if you're able to package and sell this less as an Empire that you will have to mortgage your sovereignty to join than as a sort of anti-Cagilan security guarantee. Basically get the entire island to join into a defensive alliance that is specifically against the Cagilan Empire. Then they keep on doing what they want, and rely on the idea of an island-wide alliance to deter the Cagilans from interfering in their affairs. I don't know if you can sell that though if the price of joining is too high.
I've thought about it. However, doing so will essentially get Merlin lynched. Either by CE or CE's puppets in Coria.
I have to survive this first week. If I do that, things will go much better.
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I've thought about it. However, doing so will essentially get Merlin lynched. Either by CE or CE's puppets in Coria.
I have to survive this first week. If I do that, things will go much better.
Priorities, right? ;D
Thing is, you're already saying as much without coming right out and saying it in so many words. Your announcement, while not mentioning CE by name, is screaming it between the lines. You've basically just declared your opposition to CE and what they stand for. Now the guys who run CE, they're not dumb. They know the score. So if they have a !@#$ list, you're already on it. Hence why surviving this week might not be so easy.
For what it's worth, I'm going to unpause Laszlo. He's a chip off the old anti-CE bloc (ha, see what I did there?).
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Priorities, right? ;D
Thing is, you're already saying as much without coming right out and saying it in so many words. Your announcement, while not mentioning CE by name, is screaming it between the lines. You've basically just declared your opposition to CE and what they stand for. Now the guys who run CE, they're not dumb. They know the score. So if they have a !@#$ list, you're already on it. Hence why surviving this week might not be so easy.
For what it's worth, I'm going to unpause Laszlo. He's a chip off the old anti-CE bloc (ha, see what I did there?).
Proper manipulation requires plausible denial ability.
No one can pin me as opposing CE.
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And the main problem is that the Empire already have stretched far behind Coria, indeed this first week will be quite an enjoyment to watch. I already talked to my realm of the probabilities, we are even making bets.
If this doesn't go well, Minas Leon and Rieleston can take advantage of this, so Merlin Political Skills will be put to test.
Of course in other hand, Coria can become on the most powerful ally CE could have, ever!
Behold The New Era of Darkness!
peace!
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The New Era of Darkness!
Oh, you had typo there.... The New Era of Darkaness!
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Oh, you had typo there.... The New Era of Darkaness!
+1
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Proper manipulation requires plausible denial ability.
No one can pin me as opposing CE.
Plausible deniability only helps you if they move against you openly. That will not prevent them from moving against you behind the scenes. Good luck! ;)
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Two things I think people are also missing about this:
- Most importantly, it's not like this wasn't prepared. BoM and Darka were already aware and willing to sign. It's also not strictly a bunch of allied realms like the League... The individual realms can still fight so long as they join together for foes outside the Empire. Right now, Coria can't just up and fight Tara for a few pieces of land. The Empire, however, has provisions for this.
- The CE is actually surprisingly receptive to this, likely due to the OOC notion that is really is a brilliant way to prevent total stagnation of Atamara. Sure, it is pretty much the polar opposite of what they've been apparently trying to accomplish, but that also assumes they'd thought of alternatives. To my knowledge, the CE method is the standard obvious method. It's the option the game gives you up front. Who's to say they just didn't realize there could be such an elegant solution? (Would be funnier if Jason came up with it.)
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Two things I think people are also missing about this:
- Most importantly, it's not like this wasn't prepared. BoM and Darka were already aware and willing to sign. It's also not strictly a bunch of allied realms like the League... The individual realms can still fight so long as they join together for foes outside the Empire. Right now, Coria can't just up and fight Tara for a few pieces of land. The Empire, however, has provisions for this.
- The CE is actually surprisingly receptive to this, likely due to the OOC notion that is really is a brilliant way to prevent total stagnation of Atamara. Sure, it is pretty much the polar opposite of what they've been apparently trying to accomplish, but that also assumes they'd thought of alternatives. To my knowledge, the CE method is the standard obvious method. It's the option the game gives you up front. Who's to say they just didn't realize there could be such an elegant solution? (Would be funnier if Jason came up with it.)
It only works if there's a big, menacing power out there to scare everyone into your arms. CE doesn't have that because it IS the big menacing power. However, I'd be a bit surprised if CE is totally sanguine about it. For one thing, if it works well it will severely limit CE's opportunities to get into a fight unless they're willing to take on the entire "Phoenix Empire." That's not necessarily a good thing for the players in CE.
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You are definitely right there. There has to be someone outside the Empire for it to matter at all.
Maybe that's why the CE supports it? If everyone joins, it basically fades into obscurity.
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You are definitely right there. There has to be someone outside the Empire for it to matter at all.
Maybe that's why the CE supports it? If everyone joins, it basically fades into obscurity.
Only if you let CE join it. If it's everyone but CE (and friends?), it will be quite relevant for as long as that remains the case.
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Yeah, lulz if CE is the first applicant.
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Wait...
Is Cora saying they are actually going to fight CE?
If so, that's literally the dumbest thing I've heard in BM in a while. "Oh yeah, our major friendly allies north of us, who really liked us and tried hard to help us, are ruined– NOW let's join the fight!"
I assumed this was going to be a successor-entity to the Northern Alliance: not a means of continuing this same war.
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So, yes, the CE has already been granted permission to join if they so choose. As such, denying them permission is now moot. What they choose to actually do is where things get interesting.
As far as Coria fighting the CE, the Empire plans actually say nothing explicitly of the sort. You're missing the entire setup of this thing.
Think of it this way: Right now, there's a complex web of alliances and friendships that must be dealt with to do anything on Atamara. Nobody can declare war on anyone else without having a whole mess of allies also join in. The Empire's rules provide a method for this in that realms can perform smaller one-on-one wars to resolve problems internally. Coria fighting CE or Tara for land in this is just an example. Currently, Coria trying to seize a single region from CE could only happen through long bouts of diplomacy. Once that fails, there is no other solution. With the Empire, it adds an option for a controlled war to resolve the claim, theoretically without either realm bringing in a bunch of allies and fighting to the destruction of one of the two realms.
Of course, it still favors the stronger army, but at least you don't have to make sure your plans don't tread on the big alliance's buddy. All of these small wars have to be approved as well, so you can't really claim that any realm or group of realms still controls an alliance deadlock on the realm. (That is, just because Tara is on the Imperial Senate [aka oversight committee], they can't really escalate the smaller war or stop it entirely.)
Really, it's not a successor to the Northern Alliance at all. You have to drop the paradigm that this is a strategic formation of realms and comprehend the possibility that it is a diplomatic framework. It would be a quite different form if it wanted to destroy the CE as a realm... It just wants to eliminate the fear of being wiped off the map for attempting a small gain contrary to the apparent plans larger groups have for Atamara.
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Wait...
Is Cora saying they are actually going to fight CE?
If so, that's literally the dumbest thing I've heard in BM in a while. "Oh yeah, our major friendly allies north of us, who really liked us and tried hard to help us, are ruined– NOW let's join the fight!"
I assumed this was going to be a successor-entity to the Northern Alliance: not a means of continuing this same war.
Um, I'm not stupid guys. Please give me some credit. I don't RP all of my characters as incompetent like my one on Dwilight.
Coria has stated publicly, or rather Merlin has stated publicly that Coria will NEVER fight a war of aggression against CE so long as he is Ruler of Coria.
If I wanted to join the northern alliance (which would also get me skewered by my realm) I'd have done it a long time ago. Joining the war before Eston was defeated would have likely tipped the scales of the war. However, we had Hammarsett breathing down our necks, and were kind of getting raped pretty badly all around. We were in no position to do anything to change our diplomacy.
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So, yes, the CE has already been granted permission to join if they so choose. As such, denying them permission is now moot. What they choose to actually do is where things get interesting.
As far as Coria fighting the CE, the Empire plans actually say nothing explicitly of the sort. You're missing the entire setup of this thing.
Think of it this way: Right now, there's a complex web of alliances and friendships that must be dealt with to do anything on Atamara. Nobody can declare war on anyone else without having a whole mess of allies also join in. The Empire's rules provide a method for this in that realms can perform smaller one-on-one wars to resolve problems internally. Coria fighting CE or Tara for land in this is just an example. Currently, Coria trying to seize a single region from CE could only happen through long bouts of diplomacy. Once that fails, there is no other solution. With the Empire, it adds an option for a controlled war to resolve the claim, theoretically without either realm bringing in a bunch of allies and fighting to the destruction of one of the two realms.
Of course, it still favors the stronger army, but at least you don't have to make sure your plans don't tread on the big alliance's buddy. All of these small wars have to be approved as well, so you can't really claim that any realm or group of realms still controls an alliance deadlock on the realm. (That is, just because Tara is on the Imperial Senate [aka oversight committee], they can't really escalate the smaller war or stop it entirely.)
Really, it's not a successor to the Northern Alliance at all. You have to drop the paradigm that this is a strategic formation of realms and comprehend the possibility that it is a diplomatic framework. It would be a quite different form if it wanted to destroy the CE as a realm... It just wants to eliminate the fear of being wiped off the map for attempting a small gain contrary to the apparent plans larger groups have for Atamara.
Hmmm. So what you're saying is that you're really trying to blow up the current alliance system and replace it with some sort of institution that regulates warfare on the island and permits realms to have one on one fights? That's... Interesting. Very novel, but I wonder how clear that is to everyone IG. At the moment I'm viewing it from the perspective that getting all or even most of the realms on the island to join the Empire will be difficult, at best. And if you only have a minority of the realms, then what happens? What if an Empire realm is attacked by a non-member(s)?
Basically I think I see what you're trying to do here. It's cool, but I am skeptical that it will work. And if it does work, I have doubts as to how long it will be sustainable.
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Hmmm. So what you're saying is that you're really trying to blow up the current alliance system and replace it with some sort of institution that regulates warfare on the island and permits realms to have one on one fights? That's... Interesting. Very novel, but I wonder how clear that is to everyone IG. At the moment I'm viewing it from the perspective that getting all or even most of the realms on the island to join the Empire will be difficult, at best. And if you only have a minority of the realms, then what happens? What if an Empire realm is attacked by a non-member(s)?
Basically I think I see what you're trying to do here. It's cool, but I am skeptical that it will work. And if it does work, I have doubts as to how long it will be sustainable.
That is a good description of what I'm trying to do. I have planned and created a system by which warfare can be regulated. Not controlled completely, realms are still allowed to fight whomever they wish with or without reasons for war. However, it creates a standard whereby realms are held accountable for what they choose to go to war for and what they demand.
Wars no longer need to be all or nothing, kill the enemy, or be killed. That isn't fun for anyone. If you're winning you destroy all opposition, if you're losing you are stuck fighting a war you don't want to fight anymore because otherwise you lose everything.
That is the cause of what *would* soon be stagnation on Atamara. However, this won't be easy to pull off. I need at least a decent number of realms as you point out, AND I have to keep Coria alive from internal and external threats until that happens. That's kind of why I called for nobles to join me. I will need a larger noble count to pull this off.
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Everyone knows that Coria cannot be trusted so it was basically smart move to create new falasan Empire. Now we all know who will be part of it. :)
This new Falasan Empire thing was the only way to get Darka on their side as King Kostaja was truly pissed on Coria not so long ago.. and I don't blame him.
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Yeah, believe me that Merlin and KK aint best buddies around, even if Darka joins.
Darka just dont have a much of choise... CE & Boys have put us on corner... Darka is still ofcourse to prepared for fight to death. But this all surely gives some sort of hope us... along with not so good success of first Empires attack attempt.
I think CE made a mistake, by totally humiliating Eston with Hawthorne treaty. It showed to Darka and BoM, there is no other choice than fight till the end. It also prolly made some of their not so tight allies wonder what the heck... Before seeing terms of Eston, Darka could have agreed to surrender as well, with reasonable terms, but like cutting off every duchy, deporting council members... and rumours of ripping off all the gold Darka has... we rather spend that gold to fight for the right to be Darkan.
But yet again, we live intresting times. Darka has grown 2 regions after CE said it will reduce Darkas size ;) Waiting next wave to come... looks like portion of CE army has refitted and is sitting on the mountain....
but now gtg to send message to Merlin... my new pen buddy!
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Well we had a leak and it was closer than expected.... Someones just can't be trusted. ;)
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Well we had a leak and it was closer than expected.... Someones just can't be trusted. ;)
I'm no leak, but neither am I puppet.
CE has managed to play Rome enormously well. They have convinced many players to truly become puppets of Rome and they are very good at it.
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Everyone knows that Coria cannot be trusted so it was basically smart move to create new falasan Empire. Now we all know who will be part of it. :)
This new Falasan Empire thing was the only way to get Darka on their side as King Kostaja was truly pissed on Coria not so long ago.. and I don't blame him.
Unfortunately they got the banner wrong. BRING OUT THE WHITE RABBIT!!! Coria's next step should be resurrection of Ashlantea
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Unfortunately they got the banner wrong. BRING OUT THE WHITE RABBIT!!! Coria's next step should be resurrection of Ashlantea
+1
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Proper manipulation requires plausible denial ability.
No one can pin me as opposing CE.
What, no smiley face after that statement, indicating ironic intent? I am truly disappointed. Way to go, typing with your eyes closed :P
There have been numerous passages written that pretty much scream "this is against the Cagilan Empire".
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I'm no leak, but neither am I puppet.
CE has managed to play Rome enormously well. They have convinced many players to truly become puppets of Rome and they are very good at it.
CE played very well, that why i admire the Empire. As i stated before on another thread (CLICK FOR REFERENCE (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg93585.html#msg93585))
The main problem on Atamara are the nobles who betray themselves, they form a new realm, then they serve the enemy they were fighting. I know is likely a board game where a new game erase all and everything start over.
But we are dealing with Noble's Ideals here, even if you change the name, the flag, the social state, the ruler and the type of government, etc. The nobles and people should maintain the same ideal, but that is something that does not happen on BM.
But instead:
Realm A fight realm B, Realm B dissolve and become Realm C, now the people of Realm B join realm C and serve Realm A.
Talking about Rome, the Empires in the past had a problem, they expanded and expanded, but was the same Empire, not puppet states, the same happened to every conqueror in history. But even if they conquered whole Europe, the people had their own ideals and always rise up against these Empires, right now there are 47 independant European Countries.
But on Atamara there are only 2 Sovereign states and these are Darka and BoM, any of you can mention me the name of another realm and i can give you 7256923562809295739485 reason why is NOT! being the size the first factor. how many of the original realms with original ideals remains?
Atamara need 3 or 4 more leaders like Merlin, sadly i think is already late.
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CE played very well, that why i admire the Empire. As i stated before on another thread (CLICK FOR REFERENCE (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg93585.html#msg93585))
The main problem on Atamara are the nobles who betray themselves, they form a new realm, then they serve the enemy they were fighting. I know is likely a board game where a new game erase all and everything start over.
But we are dealing with Noble's Ideals here, even if you change the name, the flag, the social state, the ruler and the type of government, etc. The nobles and people should maintain the same ideal, but that is something that does not happen on BM.
But instead:
Realm A fight realm B, Realm B dissolve and become Realm C, now the people of Realm B join realm C and serve Realm A.
Talking about Rome, the Empires in the past had a problem, they expanded and expanded, but was the same Empire, not puppet states, the same happened to every conqueror in history. But even if they conquered whole Europe, the people had their own ideals and always rise up against these Empires, right now there are 47 independant European Countries.
But on Atamara there are only 2 Sovereign states and these are Darka and BoM, any of you can mention me the name of another realm and i can give you 7256923562809295739485 reason why is NOT! being the size the first factor. how many of the original realms with original ideals remains?
Atamara need 3 or 4 more leaders like Merlin, sadly i think is already late.
You play one of the leaders of Atamara. DO IT!
Cmon.
Sovereign states: CE, Darka, BoM, Coria.
Reasons: CE is the puppetmaster. All the other puppets including Tara serve at CE's whim.
Darka are mercenaries and likely will go down fighting.
BoM is BoM. Sordnaz bows to no one.
Coria will assert its sovereignty or I swear it will go up in flames in the process.
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You see Carelia as a puppet to CE?
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You see Carelia as a puppet to CE?
Carelia is a puppet of Tara, AND a puppet of their circumstance. They have to appease their neighbors and not make ANY of them angry at this point. Carelia will lose any war it begins, simply because all of its neighbors want a reason to take their last regions and destroy them.
So, yes Carelia is a puppet. I realize you were probably directing this question at Sonya but decided I'd answer anyway.
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Carelia is a puppet of Tara, AND a puppet of their circumstance. They have to appease their neighbors and not make ANY of them angry at this point. Carelia will lose any war it begins, simply because all of its neighbors want a reason to take their last regions and destroy them.
So, yes Carelia is a puppet. I realize you were probably directing this question at Sonya but decided I'd answer anyway.
Actually it was to you though anyone else can feel free to reply to that too. I disagree partly but not completely. For instance I still don't know why we didn't continue war with Suville. It was all reward, no real risk. I would say we are forced to consider our circumstances of being small when doing things but we are not puppets of circumstance and a puppet of circumstance is the only way I could see Carelia being considered a puppet of Tara.
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You play one of the leaders of Atamara. DO IT!
Cmon.
Sovereign states: CE, Darka, BoM, Coria.
Lyonesse is sovereign because no one gives a rats ass about 6 nobles playing Kingdom.
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Lyonesse is sovereign because no one gives a rats ass about 6 nobles playing Kingdom.
+1
Though I'm sure it would be argued that they're a puppet of CE for not trying to keep fighting.
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You play one of the leaders of Atamara. DO IT!
Cmon.
Sorry ;)
My last wall of text was an OOC view of the situation of Atamara, which of course doesn't express my feelings in game.
You have no idea how hard to turn away a Chavlier and Templar of the Sword (Est Sularus Oth Mithas) from it's ideals, but that is larger history unrelated to BM.
So be good people and no poking OK?
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We need to stop using word puppet. I don't think CE's Imperial Senate sits all day deciding what strings to pull. CE senators don't see other realms as puppets. This is getting silly and annoying.
Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured. ML, supported by CE, isn't fighting Darka nor Barony, and that's OK. Tara is brewing politics in the South while CE is allied with Suville, that's also OK. Talerium doesn't allow CE to cross Darkan borders, that's also fine! You see the trend? CE isn't happy about a lot of things and that's not the end of the world!
You guys have perverted vision of CE. Yes, CE is big, and CE will fight if you pick on it. What did you expect? CE did not declare war on Darka or BoM, CE did not declare war on Carelia or Caergoth. Why fight CE when you can fight someone else? And when you loose, you start pouting, "CE is bully!" And just because a circumstance makes you friendly towards CE, it doesn't mean you are CE's puppet. With the same logic I can call Darka to be Barony's puppet, and that's just silly.
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Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured.
You're kidding right? Coria was being RAPED by the North, barely able to defend itself because of Tara and CE could offer no support to us due to their own problems. We signed an AMAZING peace deal with Eston which prevented the North using Coria for Military Access to the CE (we remained a buffer) and you claim CE wasn't happy with that!?
I know CE was more than happy with that because I was Consul at the time. I explicitly discussed it with the PM of CE at the time (Jason?), Aldarion and Ottar all of whom fully supported the decision of Coria. It was stated by myself that Coria risked destruction but would fight on if our allies *really* wanted us to, and I was encouraged to sign peace due to the fact it ensured them a buffer!
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We need to stop using word puppet. I don't think CE's Imperial Senate sits all day deciding what strings to pull. CE senators don't see other realms as puppets. This is getting silly and annoying.
Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured. ML, supported by CE, isn't fighting Darka nor Barony, and that's OK. Tara is brewing politics in the South while CE is allied with Suville, that's also OK. Talerium doesn't allow CE to cross Darkan borders, that's also fine! You see the trend? CE isn't happy about a lot of things and that's not the end of the world!
You guys have perverted vision of CE. Yes, CE is big, and CE will fight if you pick on it. What did you expect? CE did not declare war on Darka or BoM, CE did not declare war on Carelia or Caergoth. Why fight CE when you can fight someone else? And when you loose, you start pouting, "CE is bully!" And just because a circumstance makes you friendly towards CE, it doesn't mean you are CE's puppet. With the same logic I can call Darka to be Barony's puppet, and that's just silly.
Your statements show you really don't understand CE and its allies.
"Coria pulled out of the war with Eston." NO, we did not. This is simply false. Coria SURRENDERED to Eston. We were beaten. Darkan troops were sitting in our capital looting, and we surrendered. Now, *I* helped Coria negotiate a favorable peace treaty with Eston. But, Coria surrendered, we did not "pull out of the war."
"Why fight CE when you can fight someone else?" Please name a single realm that Coria or any other CE ally is allowed to fight that CE isn't themselves fighting and in which CE will not do one of the following: 1. Interfere politically or militarily, 2. Prevent by stating they will defend against aggressors?
CE interferes in wars. Namely because people like to fight. So they find reasons to join wars which aren't their business. They have done it time and time again. I was in the CE Senate when we figured out how to do just that in the south.
Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Talerium's treaty with Darka? Because if they did, CE would die. Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Tara ruining their northern war plans by bickering in the south? Because if they did CE would die.
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Now, *I* helped Coria negotiate a favorable peace treaty with Eston. But, Coria surrendered, we did not "pull out of the war.
Perhaps Perth can clear this up, as I'm pretty sure Kerwin and Saeculo were the ones discussing the peace treaty and the advantages etc. Maybe Merlin had an influence, but I was under the impression that it was Kerwin and Saeculo who made it happen.
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Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Talerium's treaty with Darka? Because if they did, CE would die. Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Tara ruining their northern war plans by bickering in the south? Because if they did CE would die.
Are you calling CE Talerium's and Tara's puppet? I don't. Puppet term is just silly. CE plays politics like the rest of Atamara.
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Perhaps Perth can clear this up, as I'm pretty sure Kerwin and Saeculo were the ones discussing the peace treaty and the advantages etc. Maybe Merlin had an influence, but I was under the impression that it was Kerwin and Saeculo who made it happen.
It was a confusing and fast moving period right after Kerwin came onto the throne. Merlin came to Anost to meet with Kerwin to discuss the peace deal, which allowed the Darkans to slip into the city and sack it since Merlin wasn't there to pull up a bunch of militia.
Merlin was upset about that, I remember. Regardless, it helped ensure Coria wanted to sign peace with Eston. Kerwin signed peace with Coria because 1) it was part of his overall goals to ultimately create a new powerful alliance between Coria and Eston and 2) because he was foolishly unaware of Darka's extreme unwillingness to use the Wester/Talerium theatre to prosecute the war. Kerwin was convinced that the war to win the war was through Talerium, not Coria and Tara. Kerwin wanted to take the war directly to CE/Eaglin, not waste time trying to slog through Coria and northern Tara. Ultimately, we all know how those plans worked out.
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Perhaps Perth can clear this up, as I'm pretty sure Kerwin and Saeculo were the ones discussing the peace treaty and the advantages etc. Maybe Merlin had an influence, but I was under the impression that it was Kerwin and Saeculo who made it happen.
I said I helped, not that I signed it. That was certainly Saeculo.
Merlin was very active in foreign politics at the time and was busy befriending Kerwin so that Coria would have an ally and friend there.
Merlin did NOT write that treaty alone, but he helped influence terms.
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+1
Though I'm sure it would be argued that they're a puppet of CE for not trying to keep fighting.
Are you kidding? We barely have 1200 CS against their 60k+? Heck, I think we will be the first kingdom to surrender unconditionally to (rogue) if monsters and undead appear in the same region.
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Are you kidding? We barely have 1200 CS against their 60k+? Heck, I think we will be the first kingdom to surrender unconditionally to (rogue) if monsters and undead appear in the same region.
Hey, it's not my argument, I just know someone would make it. After all, Darka's looking to go out to the last man. I doubt it'll happen, but who knows.
I did get a chuckle out of the NPC forces, though.
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Eston was pretty much already dead. They didn't really have any choice, and Darka understands that. I don't think anyone seriously blames Eston for surrendering.
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It was a confusing and fast moving period right after Kerwin came onto the throne. Merlin came to Anost to meet with Kerwin to discuss the peace deal, which allowed the Darkans to slip into the city and sack it since Merlin wasn't there to pull up a bunch of militia.
Merlin was upset about that, I remember. Regardless, it helped ensure Coria wanted to sign peace with Eston. Kerwin signed peace with Coria because 1) it was part of his overall goals to ultimately create a new powerful alliance between Coria and Eston and 2) because he was foolishly unaware of Darka's extreme unwillingness to use the Wester/Talerium theatre to prosecute the war. Kerwin was convinced that the war to win the war was through Talerium, not Coria and Tara. Kerwin wanted to take the war directly to CE/Eaglin, not waste time trying to slog through Coria and northern Tara. Ultimately, we all know how those plans worked out.
Maybe if, you know, Kerwin had consulted his allies, he would have realized the mistake he was making before he made it. Important disclaimer: Laszlo was not directly involved in any of these discussions, so maybe Kerwin did; from what Laszlo was told though, Eston's agreement with Coria mostly came out of left field to the rest of the NA, and subsequent allied concerns were largely disregarded.
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We need to stop using word puppet. I don't think CE's Imperial Senate sits all day deciding what strings to pull. CE senators don't see other realms as puppets. This is getting silly and annoying.
Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured. ML, supported by CE, isn't fighting Darka nor Barony, and that's OK. Tara is brewing politics in the South while CE is allied with Suville, that's also OK. Talerium doesn't allow CE to cross Darkan borders, that's also fine! You see the trend? CE isn't happy about a lot of things and that's not the end of the world!
You guys have perverted vision of CE. Yes, CE is big, and CE will fight if you pick on it. What did you expect? CE did not declare war on Darka or BoM, CE did not declare war on Carelia or Caergoth. Why fight CE when you can fight someone else? And when you loose, you start pouting, "CE is bully!" And just because a circumstance makes you friendly towards CE, it doesn't mean you are CE's puppet. With the same logic I can call Darka to be Barony's puppet, and that's just silly.
You have a perverted vision of CE also. The day that Talerium and/or Tara side against CE in a major conflict is the day you can tell me you're right. Until then, you've got no leg to stand on. Those realms have and will continue to mindlessly follow CE's lead in every way that matters for the foreseeable future.
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There are more choices between being a puppet and fighting your long-term Ally. And Realms like Tara are definitely not mindlessly following CE's lead, but that doesn't mean Tara and CE don't remain allies.
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There are more choices between being a puppet and fighting your long-term Ally. And Realms like Tara are definitely not mindlessly following CE's lead, but that doesn't mean Tara and CE don't remain allies.
They made a federation, so they essentially destroyed all future diplomacy between their realms. Its "my way or the highway" from both sides. Yet there is no highway. So they just kind of look at each other dully until someone abroad gives them reason to start a war together.
Now, Tara certainly doesn't "act" like a puppet of CE, yet they are. How many wars do you think Tara would win on its own? They take all of their direction militarily from CE. Period. Tara's military sucks. Tara's military is the worst military possible for a realm their size. They NEED CE therefore they are CE's puppets.
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They made a federation, so they essentially destroyed all future diplomacy between their realms. Its "my way or the highway" from both sides. Yet there is no highway. So they just kind of look at each other dully until someone abroad gives them reason to start a war together.
Now, Tara certainly doesn't "act" like a puppet of CE, yet they are. How many wars do you think Tara would win on its own? They take all of their direction militarily from CE. Period. Tara's military sucks. Tara's military is the worst military possible for a realm their size. They NEED CE therefore they are CE's puppets.
Right– because clearly Tara never has any influence on CE. Clearly this is a one-way street of CE controlling Tara.
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There are more choices between being a puppet and fighting your long-term Ally. And Realms like Tara are definitely not mindlessly following CE's lead, but that doesn't mean Tara and CE don't remain allies.
I didn't say they mindlessly follow CE's lead, I said they mindlessly follow CE's lead in every way that matters. There is a difference. The difference is, they might indirectly oppose each other in petty politicking (for instance in the south), but when it really comes down to major issues and conflicts, Tara will always support CE and vice versa. It's the literal definition of a no-brainer.
That said, someone else had a good point, which is that it probably runs both ways. When it comes to those two, the only real question is whether it's the man walking the dog or the dog walking the man. I can see it going either way depending on the situation.
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That's my point. CE would stick to Tara just the same. Those aren't traits of a Puppet. Those are traits of two very close long-term Allies, you just can't stick anything in between them. Both Realms know each other's worth to the other. Something like, say, the Diocese of Aix on East Continent, THAT was a puppet.
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Eston was pretty much already dead. They didn't really have any choice, and Darka understands that. I don't think anyone seriously blames Eston for surrendering.
BoM does blame them for not fighting to the last man, but that IS BoM... The one place where it isn't even worth changing. Too much effort not enough gain.
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That's my point. CE would stick to Tara just the same. Those aren't traits of a Puppet. Those are traits of two very close long-term Allies, you just can't stick anything in between them. Both Realms know each other's worth to the other. Something like, say, the Diocese of Aix on East Continent, THAT was a puppet.
Sure, but there are other realms in that bloc that fit that bill.
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I know CE's buddies aint total puppets... but power of CE/Tara forces them to be their puppets... i'm pretty damn sure, that those who are not jumping up and right when CE says so... when this war is over, they are looked with angry eye. Example Minas Leon, it has not participated like CE wishes, it will be tolerated cause they are busy... but then again Realston is being good lapdog... so if Realston and ML gets war together... you can bet CE will send its armies to help out Realston... which is ofcourse rigth thing to do, help out better ally. But we come to the point that CE/Tara block has too much power. They decide who war... or more like who will win the war.
Darka used to be similar factor, i admit... but we were the ones you could buy with gold, CE you can buy only by licking their butt.
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Weird, being an aggressor and competitor is a fine standard, but when two realms join in a cooperative alliance that everyone else is being only be jealous of, it becomes a butt licking. Anyway, it's OK we don't perceive this world the same way. No point in arguing. I'll just have remember, if realm X is CE's puppet I should take it as realm X shares friendly relations with CE.
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I would definite puppet that realm does something what it doesnt want to do, because CE says so.
Example Coria didnt help Eston, its ally when CE rolled over them. I counted Coria as puppet... Eston saved Corias butt, but Coria did nothing to save ESton... atleast not in time.
Then there is Strombran which is mainly only ex CE people.. kind of colony without actual culture or its own relations.
Then there is Rielston, who abandoned its home land to join the enemy... not sure if that can be counted as puppet... But they might find them self forced to become puppet of CE... not sure how BoM views them, but atm. Darka doesnt like them... they speed up, if not even caused Estons spine to broke.
Deeper shouteners... i really dont know what to think of those... they just are there... too afraid to do anything... too afraid to even fight each other, cause paw of CE would swing... at some point. CE wants peacefull south while they roam at north.
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Maybe if, you know, Kerwin had consulted his allies, he would have realized the mistake he was making before he made it. Important disclaimer: Laszlo was not directly involved in any of these discussions, so maybe Kerwin did; from what Laszlo was told though, Eston's agreement with Coria mostly came out of left field to the rest of the NA, and subsequent allied concerns were largely disregarded.
No, he didn't really consult the others on the matter. At least not much, maybe mentioned it in passing. He didn't feel the need to because of two things:
1) The original war between Coria and Eston broke out PRIOR to the whole "crusade to end CE hegemony" idea. The Eston-Coria war was originally caused because of the infiltrator that Eston allowed to escape that Coria/Tara/CE wanted captured and executed. Kerwin saw himself putting a quick end to a needless war with Coria that his predecessor had started and had resigned because of. Kerwin had bigger dreams.
2) Kerwin always saw himself, and Eston, as leader of the Northern Alliance. This was obviously a flaw and ultimately caused some problems. Eventually, Kerwin realized that KK was a stubborn SOB and wasn't going to do the things Kerwin insisted on him doing, and Kerwin laid back some. But especially very early on Kerwin that is how Kerwin saw himself.
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This argument is getting old.
If CE is a puppetmaster of Talerium and Tara, then Eston was a puppetmaster of Darka and BoM. The relationships were fairly analogous as far as I could tell.
I'm starting to think that Kerwin's biggest mistake was to think that he was actually in charge of the Northern Alliance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
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This argument is getting old.
If CE is a puppetmaster of Talerium and Tara, then Eston was a puppetmaster of Darka and BoM. The relationships were fairly analogous as far as I could tell.
I'm starting to think that Kerwin's biggest mistake was to think that he was actually in charge of the Northern Alliance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
To be honest, Kerwins mistake was listening to Eston's council because we would make a decision, back track on it, then yell at him, rinse, and repeat. Kerwin was too nice, he was trying to work with a group of people (inside Eston) that had no desire to agree to anything.
CE did to Eston (forced departure of the Government and Council) what Kerwin needed to do to Eston but did not have the tools to do so.
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This went from "tada the Phoenix Empire" to "tada CE controlls the world" pretty damn quickly.
The thing is, Merlin has a lot of adversaries in Coria. As the player said, he'll have to survive the first week.
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This argument is getting old.
If CE is a puppetmaster of Talerium and Tara, then Eston was a puppetmaster of Darka and BoM. The relationships were fairly analogous as far as I could tell.
I'm starting to think that Kerwin's biggest mistake was to think that he was actually in charge of the Northern Alliance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
The Northern Alliance members have histories consisting almost entirely of warring one another. They united explicitly in response to the threat that the Empire posed to the island. If CE hadn't remained a threat, it would have broken apart with wars between the members -- just as it always has. Hell, do you have any idea the significance of Darka joining war without a contract? CE posed (and poses) a threat that serious.
When was the last time you saw one bloc realm fight another without CE's blessing?
The NA was formed because "the enemy of my enemy", while the Empire is a series of realms afraid of the big bully.
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The NA was formed because "the enemy of my enemy", while the Empire is a series of realms afraid of the big bully.
Or they like the bully.
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Or they like the bully.
I think this is more the case and also the real problem. If the Empire really was an evil republic executing tyranny on its subjects, sooner or later an opportunistic ruler of one of the vassal realms would try to rebel. As it is now, being part of the Cagil seems to have only positive impacts. And with this there's no motivation for conflict and it leads to stagnation. I hope that if this new Empire survives and becomes a thing, it will either cease to exist once infighting breaks between the current one, or Coria starts demanding increasing taxes from its protected realms, or otherwise acting more forceful.
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I think this is more the case and also the real problem. If the Empire really was an evil republic executing tyranny on its subjects, sooner or later an opportunistic ruler of one of the vassal realms would try to rebel.
Huh....
Well, idk about "rebel" as most opportunistic rulers don't seek suicide. But, there are certainly better things than being a vassal.
Trust me, its not because they like CE. They are scared of CE. If they like CE it is a function of them not being the ones under attack by CE at the time.
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Let me give a clear example of CE using "puppets":
Letter from Jason Elegant (50 minutes ago)
Message sent to all elder members of "League of the Eagle" (14 recipients)
King Merlin,
I have to raise a second concern. Coria is threatening Rieleston to give up Elost. According to the treaty with Eston, it rightfully belongs to Rieleston. Eston has intentionally tried to circumvent the treaty and you are helping them do it. As a friend, you should have helped us enforce it, just like we helped you with all the treaty implementation and respected your treaties with other realms. Please show some respect to your allies, look they are laughing at us due to this action of yours:
***
Letter from Cyrilos Vellos (30 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (21 recipients)
Royal Marshal,
That was one of the most lackluster apologies and mind-bogglingly convoluted ways of trying to walk back embarrassing statements I've seen in a long time; at least since I left Riombara. You would be wiser to be more clear: make fewer outrageous statements, and simply apologize when you're wrong. Making excuses for yourself is entirely unseemly, and certainly not Kingly.
You and Ianish are both young, it is true. But age does not matter. Nor, by the way, does experience. Nor does which ancient patriarchs of Eston you invoke. What matters is a judgment of character.
Lord Ianish, on his first day as my vassal, took the role of Steward and secured hundreds of bushels of food for Barad Lacirith: and for that, I respect him.
Lord Ianish, as Lord of Elost, made a courageous decision to spit in the face of our Cagilan oppressors and the bastards in Rieleston for their unequal treaty: and for that, I applaud him.
Lord Ianish volunteered for a thankless job as Royal Treasurer when none would do it: and for that, I commend him.
***
Jason Elegant
Prime Minister of Cagilan Empire
Royal of Cagilan Empire
Elder of League of the Eagle
And, how best to respond to such use of "puppets":
Letter from Merlin Silverfire
Message sent to all elder members of "League of the Eagle" (14 recipients)
To the Prime Minister of Coria,
First, let me apologize on behalf of my courier, he informed me that you had sent two letters, but apparently he didn't grip the first letter very tightly, and so it flew out of the window. I hastily sent him looking for the letter, and you can rest assured that I will have found it by the time you respond to this own letter of mine.
I can only assume that your first letter regarded a first concern, as the second one speaks of a "second" but I'll simply address the second concern first.
Let me begin by saying that Coria is not in any way threatening Rieleston to give up Elost. Coria has, through me, sent a single letter to Rieleston requesting that they return Elost to Coria after they stole it from us by force. I have had no other correspondence with their ruler, and thus could not possibly have made such a threat of which you speak. Unless of course you threatened Rieleston on behalf of Coria that is.
Coria is both a friend and ally of CE, and all the other members of this League. We are helping you enforce and support your treaty. That treaty certainly granted Rieleston with a claim to Elost, but Coria also gained a claim to Elost when its rightful lord swore fealty for his region to me. So, we have two realms each with their own claim to the region.
Now, this would all be well and good, but Rieleston instead of talking with Coria about the region, sent soldiers into Elost and attacked Corians. They then used their military influence and abashed assault on the Corian bureaucrats of Elost to turn the region's loyalty to Rieleston. Now, luckily, I am a conservative ruler of Coria and so instead of threatening Rieleston as you claim I have simply asked for its peaceful return. I can share the letter if you do not trust the word of your friend and ally.
Then again, we have another issue, BOTH Rieleston and Coria are allied to CE. Certainly this means, that CE shouldn't take sides in a dispute between their allies. Although, if they did take sides I'm sure they'd choose their ally which has fought beside them for so long and is a member of the League of the Eagle, and not a newly minted ally who has demonstrated their dislike and plans to harm Coria.
I guess, the last thing to consider in this situation, is that Coria should certainly not be carrying out this course of diplomacy because we didn't first ask permission from CE. Obviously, Coria is only allowed to gain regions through treaties that CE is either a signatory to, or when they grant support ahead of time.
Thus, please forgive me for my actions by asking politely for return of a region from a realm who has assaulted my nobles and invaded my realm with troops.
Merlin Silverfire
Consul Regnant of Coria
Royal of Coria
Duke of Frekpotis
Margrave of Barad Falas
General of League of the Eagle
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Who want to make a bet how long this new insane Emperor of FalasanTuchanon XXXXV will remain in his seat ?
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Who want to make a bet how long this new insane Emperor of FalasanTuchanon XXXXV will remain in his seat ?
I'm actually starting to think Ottar preferred Ravendon to Merlin. haha
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I'm actually starting to think Ottar preferred Ravendon to Merlin. haha
Ottar would prefer anyone to Merlin. Merlin isn't afraid to speak his mind.
I also think he is still anal about Merlin's actions as Duke during the Hammarsett war.
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Maybby KK should take the seat of Emperor? ::)
-Jaune
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Maybby KK should take the seat of Emperor? ::)
-Jaune
+1 Ay, I could live with that. Emperor should always be strong and trustworthy.
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heh, i guess problem is that KK aint much of fan of Empires... then again this new empire has some real good ideas... but i rather see a lot free realms without empires... where to make some business... empires bad to the business :/
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I knew Coria and Tara headbutted on a couple of things during the War. Especially their perceived lack of support. But how did it get so bad that there were rumours of us contemplating attacking them!? What did I miss when I left!?
[suspicious]P.S This looks like an interesting button! Suspicious![/suspicious]
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Nothing more than this new madmanemperor who wish to end CE's dominations by creating own Empire. His continous plans to weaken our world domination.
This kind of madman needs to be exiled from Atamara.
Letter from Merlin Silverfire (1 day, 8 hours ago)
Your Majesty, King Minas Leon,
How have I not treated you with the utmost respect? I recognize that currently I only hold the title of Duke, but when I take over as Ruler we shall be equals. I merely spoke to point out that I am not unaware of the manners of politics and diplomacy. I have led Coria from behind the scenes as if a Kingdom ever since I stepped down as Ruler of Coria, but I plan to take over direct rulership again.
My speech is also direct, as that was your wish was it not?
As to the risk for my side of things, I can't be banned. I control Coria. It is mine as much as Minas Leon is yours. I know everything that takes place with Coria's foreign diplomacy, and organize our foreign diplomacy.
But fine, we'll discuss this then, and lets see what you think. I currently have the dedicated support of one of two realms which will be created from Eston's ashes by the treaty with CE. It is the larger portion of what will remain of Eston. That is the only commitment I've received so far, but I've also not communicated too widely yet this idea. Should I get your support my next plan was to contact both Sordnaz and Kostaja at the same time. I am already in contact with Suville and Strombran. I will make contact with Carelia and Caergoth later on, potentially after the foundation of the empire itself. I also plan to try and convince one or more dukes to secede from Tara or CE to join the Empire with their duchies.
That is my plan and its current state.
Signed,
Merlin Silverfire
Duke of Frekpotis
Margrave of Barad Falas
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Well, Strombran opted out and Tara said they would fight Merlin if necessary. Good times ahead!
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With a better inside view of the situation now, I don't think Merlin is going to survive. He might get through it alive and even remain a Duke and stay on in Coria, but I have my doubts that what he's trying to accomplish will get done. At the moment I see two main possibilities:
1. Merlin loses the referendum. Merlin peacefully steps down and abandons his project. Coria is left with serious internal divisions and a major rivalry between its two powerful Dukes and the Monarchist and Republican factions. Political intrigue continues and weakens the realm.
2. Merlin wins the referendum. Saeculo either secedes the Duchy of Shanandoah or organizes a rebellion with secession being the most likely course. Either way, Merlin has compromised his relations with the Southern realms, leading them to back Saeculo and the Republicans. Coria's future survival under these circumstances is questionable.
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I would suggest we avoid to post IG messages, especially messages sent to limited groups not to shared on forums... even thought these all should be OOC, we all know that it effects game play as well.
Edit: I mean Jason Elegant prolly not wanted that message to be world wide, as well as m2rt dont want Zadars post to be known everyone at BM.
-Jaune
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I would suggest we avoid to post IG messages, especially messages sent to limited groups not to shared on forums... even thought these all should be OOC, we all know that it effects game play as well.
-Jaune
Thumbs up! It was bad decision to post that.
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Ottar posted it to all of Tara. It's a little late to ask for secrecy.
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I would suggest we avoid to post IG messages, especially messages sent to limited groups not to shared on forums... even thought these all should be OOC, we all know that it effects game play as well.
Edit: I mean Jason Elegant prolly not wanted that message to be world wide, as well as m2rt dont want Zadars post to be known everyone at BM.
-Jaune
I agree. I have had to be very careful in my IC messages as a result of seeing a few of these letters. I have make sure I remember which things I saw in the game, and which I saw here.
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Ottar posted it to all of Tara. It's a little late to ask for secrecy.
There is a difference between secrecy and things being rumored knowledge though.
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I would suggest we avoid to post IG messages, especially messages sent to limited groups not to shared on forums... even thought these all should be OOC, we all know that it effects game play as well.
Edit: I mean Jason Elegant prolly not wanted that message to be world wide, as well as m2rt dont want Zadars post to be known everyone at BM.
-Jaune
I have notice as well that we are mixing IC and ICC a lot on this conversation.
Even if Silverfire have noble intentions for Atamara, more or less could be frustrated by OCC intervention (meta-gaming)
Peace
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Even if Silverfire have noble intentions for Atamara, more or less could be frustrated by OCC intervention (meta-gaming)
I think its pretty much regardless of how things turn out that one side or the other will think that OOC was involved in some way.
I mean a large portion of the population has considered a lot of what CE and Tara have built to be unhealthy for Atamara.
It is also a lot of OOC opinions overshadowing or shaping the actions of their characters which has led to the warped view of the Phoenix Empire proposal. Obviously "created" misunderstandings of the Charter Proposal and making it say what it doesn't. The Empire in no way grants an immediate alliance amongst all members and is specifically built to defend against this, yet that is the ONLY thing that has been stated by Coria's allies in the discussions.
Splits between IC/OOC in characters and players who have different views about what they want and what their players want.
All sorts of things like this, are riddled in this situation.
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I mean a large portion of the population has considered a lot of what CE and Tara have built to be unhealthy for Atamara.
Or that could be a loud minority that needs to shout to gain an illusion of volume
It is also a lot of OOC opinions overshadowing or shaping the actions of their characters which has led to the warped view of the Phoenix Empire proposal. Obviously "created" misunderstandings of the Charter Proposal and making it say what it doesn't. The Empire in no way grants an immediate alliance amongst all members and is specifically built to defend against this, yet that is the ONLY thing that has been stated by Coria's allies in the discussions.
Nah, I don't think it's OOC problem. Charter Proposal is confusing as heck. No wonder people don't get it.
And there's also a manner of execution. Merlin could have gained way more support if Coria was not rebelling, and if CE and Tara did not feel threatened by Merlin's messaging to Darka, BoM, Raoul letters, etc.
Let me paraphrase a third Newton law: for each action, there is equal and opposite reaction. The more merlin pushes, the more resistance he encounters. Before you can run with your idea, you have to learn how to walk.
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I agree with taking out the IC letter. I just recently had an IC letter that I sent to ONE PERSON be put up in the forums. Their justification for this was "well I'm sending it to others IC", which was a bull!@#$ argument to begin with. I don't care how many people see it IC, don't be posting a personal IC letter that I personally sent to only one character onto the forums.
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Stop posting IC letters like this.
Further, stop accusing people in-game of clanning, OOC recruiting, or any other abuse. There's no need to single out the individuals. They know who they are, and everyone with half a brain can figure out where their interests lie. If the present circumstances are too much for you to bear, do everyone who's trying to play a game a favor and put your characters in cold storage until you've calmed down.
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Stop posting IC letters like this.
Further, stop accusing people in-game of clanning, OOC recruiting, or any other abuse. There's no need to single out the individuals. They know who they are, and everyone with half a brain can figure out where their interests lie. If the present circumstances are too much for you to bear, do everyone who's trying to play a game a favor and put your characters in cold storage until you've calmed down.
+1
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This whole thing is turning out like a certain RUSH song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_D0wkLyCXE
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don't post ic messages. Merlin's ability to role-play his plan is now crippled and very few people here will separate this knowledge from their characters.
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I don't like saying very few, but definitely not all.
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It's mad easy for me, I've been privy to every letter here. :P
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I agree we should not be posting these letters here on the forum.
However, for everyone who has any real play in this situation, those letters were already known. In fact they're being shared with everyone in CE, Tara and mostly Coria as well as perhaps others? But I agree, this is very much approaching/overstepping the IC/OOC line.
Also, the way my char acts is pure RP, even though he fights Merlin at this point.
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If those are shared to everybody? Then why post them at forum, just explain with your own words...
Example, Darka doesnt know that ML ruler forwards messages to Ottar... KK still dont know, but knowledge of that might effect messages KK will send to ML... Ofcourse he should not send anything which he definately dont want enemy know to ML which is after all "wrong side"... but still...
-Jaune
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Just noticed this really.
Why are you all posting messages from IG? Obviously OCC/IC are blended now cause everyone knows it difficult keeping them separate... unless you really don't check forum or care. Though many of you posting care so it effects IG.
Leave messages IG until after the fact.
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Just noticed this really.
Why are you all posting messages from IG? Obviously OCC/IC are blended now cause everyone knows it difficult keeping them separate... unless you really don't check forum or care. Though many of you posting care so it effects IG.
Leave messages IG until after the fact.
This is why I try to avoid reading realm/area/issue specific forum posts.
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Not having heard any of the negotiations involved IG, or seen many messages about it at all, I will say that it seemed to my character that this new Empire was a big gauntlet thrown in CEs face. CE is undoubtedly the big power on the island. The new Empire appeared to be an attempt to limit the power of CE. I really can't figure out how anyone can interpret it any other way, whether Merlin intended it to be that or not.
Also, expecting the various rulers to not share their letters among each other IG/IC is more than a little naive.
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Also, expecting the various rulers to not share their letters among each other IG/IC is more than a little naive.
I completely agree, and it's fine when it's done IG. It's posting them on general forums that I'm not a fan of.