| Summary: | Player targetted abuse for in-game actions |
| Violation: | Social Contract: Fair Play/Harassment and Abuse |
| World: | Atamara |
| Complainer: | TH (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=26113) |
| About: | Jason (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=29572) |
"We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends"
"No verbal attacks, insults or harrassment of other players. Err on the side of caution, especially if you don't know the other player well."
"characters can be played as aggressive, as long as it is clear and obvious that the opposite character is the target, not the player behind him."
"You have told several times that you are our ally, whereas you such things behind our back. Shame on you.We can no longer trust someone who is plotting to take away our Duchies and plans to take our enemies in their plan...King Merlin, That was not a forgery. You cannot hide behind your lies. We have a whole set of your letters. Your true face is revealed...Your intent to take away regions from CE and Tara are now known...this king of yours wants to take our Duchies and does sweet talk in front of us...You still claim that the letter was a forgery? I liked you and admired you when I thought that you are a friend. How wrong I was...region-hungry-empire-which-needed-our-duchies....Plotting to break away our duchies?...you were making plans to damage us...The more lies you invent, the more effort I will put in exposing truth."
Oh no...another bundle of lies from Merlin? Poor Jason is really pissed off.
Don't make me do it again. This is not the League channel, so I am not going to give more details. These sentences scream betrayal...Someday someone will do the same to you, then maybe you could understand the pain of being back-stabbed and being lied to in face. At least do yourself a favor and retain your honor as a player by not lying on forums...We knew what you were up to. We don't have to sit inside your brain to know your intentions...I never felt so betrayed in my life."
QuoteBy another player: "You are taking this *way* too personally."His response: "I play like this. It's all personal."
Have any comments you deem as harassing been made on an OOC basis within the game?
Letter from Jason Elegant (2 days, 17 hours ago)
Message sent to all elder members of "League of the Eagle" (14 recipients)
Elders,
I have received confirmation from three honorable people of Coria that Coria is interested in helping us against Darka (and BoM I presume). I express my gratitude to such allies. Your help is much appreciated.
On an unrelated matter, today, one of my scribes informed me that a very honorable man, whose word is his life, wanted to end his life and was looking for methods to kill himself. If you come across any such person trying to do so, please help him find the correct method. And don't forget to show sympathies towards him, because that's the real purpose of this whole suicide drama.
Jason Elegant
Prime Minister of Cagilan Empire
Roleplay from Merlin Silverfire (3 days, 2 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Merlin sat in the bedroom of the Royal Palace in Barad Gardor trying to figure out how all of this had gotten so far out of hand. Everything had been going well, and now he was having to make the worst of possible decisions.
The short-reigned King of Coria turned back to the table that had been placed in front of him. Many various items had been placed upon the table and a somewhat small man was pointing to and describing each one. Their various properties, and pros and cons. Yet, the King wasn't paying much attention. King Silverfire glanced again at those he had to choose from. There was the strong, sturdy, coil of rope. Two finely carved daggers with rubies in each hilt. A locket of heartsbane. An enclosed bucket through which one could see the moving patterns of a viper. A locket of nightblossom, which the small man was now describing:
"...slow, yet painless. Reports say that its results are indiscernible from sleep for the first hours."
...A small clear vial, and a few vials with some greenish liquid. Merlin's own sword, that he had commissioned upon becoming Duke of Barad Falas, was laid out as the last item at the end of the table. Merlin's eyes rested for some time on this jewel of Coria, before finally closing slowly. Minutes passed...hours perhaps, yet no one dared leave the room who had been invited to this very private meeting. Only his closest and most loyal servants were here.
In the end, Merlin looked up once again, and spoke quietly but assertively to his oldest and most loyal servant:
"Bring me the Royal Assassin. I know you don't know his identity, but if you seek him out, he will find you. I will await him here."
I will be removing all posts that do not contribute to this discussion.
This is not the place for your "+1"'s, Vellos.
Isn't Vellos a Magistrate? If he is agreeing with another of the Magistrates... isn't that pretty relevant?
Players must be nice to each other, to a certain minimum level at least, but characters are not bound by these rules.
50 letters that all have the same single line in them
Repeated copied message spamming
I suspect, though Silverfire will have to clarify, that the character Jason Elegant was taking quoted messages of Merlin's out of context and sending them (with condemnation attached) to anyone who would listen. Ruler's channel, League of the Eagle, private individuals, etc. Same messages, multiple places, forcing Merlin to reply to all of those different places as well if he wanted to defend himself. I gather he was also sending a lot of these messages in general. Basically, it seems he's spent the last week devoting a lot of time to tearing down Merlin and trying to overwhelm him with a tide of so many accusations and damning misquotes spread to so many different people that Merlin couldn't possibly defend himself against all of them. Sort of the "If you repeat a lie enough times it becomes true" sort of strategy, though it wasn't exactly all lies. Many of the quotes used were true quotes, just taken out of context. Together they were used to construct a certain narrative about Merlin that Jason then kept hammering away at, repeating it as often as he could to as many people as he could. It worked rather well in combination with the resistance to Merlin inside Coria.
It is very difficult, absent direct OOC attacks, to determine when IC harassment of a character (which is fine) turns into OOC harassment of a player (which is bad). Have other characters of the Silverfire family been harassed? Have other characters of the Elegant family taken part in the harassment?
BattleMaster is a PvP game. It is quite possible, even probable, that someone will have their feelings hurt, or piss off another player. That's in the nature of playing a PvP game. I'm not sure if the Magistrates can determine when things have gone too far without some kind of "smoking gun", when they can't have access to the entire message store to read the full scope of things and see what's been happening.
Finally, I would add that you have many forum friends and even have many admin/mod friends. There are also some people who don't like me due their own reasons. So, yes, you can defeat me by organizing things like this. Feel free to do it and satisfy your ego.
It is very difficult, absent direct OOC attacks, to determine when IC harassment of a character (which is fine) turns into OOC harassment of a player (which is bad). Have other characters of the Silverfire family been harassed? Have other characters of the Elegant family taken part in the harassment?
I'm not sure if the Magistrates can determine when things have gone too far without some kind of "smoking gun", when they can't have access to the entire message store to read the full scope of things and see what's been happening.
I suspect, though Silverfire will have to clarify, that the character Jason Elegant was taking quoted messages of Merlin's out of context and sending them (with condemnation attached) to anyone who would listen. Ruler's channel, League of the Eagle, private individuals, etc. Same messages, multiple places, forcing Merlin to reply to all of those different places as well if he wanted to defend himself. I gather he was also sending a lot of these messages in general. Basically, it seems he's spent the last week devoting a lot of time to tearing down Merlin and trying to overwhelm him with a tide of so many accusations and damning misquotes spread to so many different people that Merlin couldn't possibly defend himself against all of them. Sort of the "If you repeat a lie enough times it becomes true" sort of strategy, though it wasn't exactly all lies. Many of the quotes used were true quotes, just taken out of context. Together they were used to construct a certain narrative about Merlin that Jason then kept hammering away at, repeating it as often as he could to as many people as he could. It worked rather well in combination with the resistance to Merlin inside Coria.
It seems to me that the "smoking gun" is the messages that Elegant has posted on the forum.
If you don't like my forum posts, then maybe you should tell me why did you post my message for elders only in forum? I did not like it when my highly secure message to elders was posted in forums. It was then I decided to be active on forums and see what else you were doing and reply suitably, if needed. You can't keep offending people and expect them to be silent. You brought IG things in OCC.
The Magistrates don't police character actions, nor forum actions.
(Note to Magistrates: This occurred on page 6 of the "Phoenix Empire" thread which I created in the Atamara forum. link: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3874.75.html)
Sorry, this is an out-of-topic pet peeve: "Page x of a thread" is not a meaningful measure. On my account the thread you point at only has three pages. It depends on how many post per page you show.It has many, many more pages on a mobile device using the WAP2 version of the forum.
Sorry, this is an out-of-topic pet peeve: "Page x of a thread" is not a meaningful measure. On my account the thread you point at only has three pages. It depends on how many post per page you show.
In other words, what enemies in BM pretty much do all of the time?
On their own, the messages in game would just be the worst that I've ever seen for completely trying to destroy anyone that I've ever seen. However, it was in relation to these messages in-game combined with the forum posts which made it clear (to me at least) that Elegant's player had linked all of the actions of my character to myself as a player, and was thus using his in-game character's higher influence of ruler of the strongest realm to just completely barrage and abuse my character through multiple channels with repeated messages which all said pretty much the same thing. Most of them involved continue quotes straight from in-game letters sent to radically different characters, and pulling them completely out of context, while sending them over and over again. I don't consider that such treatment is how you'd play a board game between friends.
If you don't like my forum posts, then maybe you should tell me why did you post my message for elders only in forum? I did not like it when my highly secure message to elders was posted in forums. It was then I decided to be active on forums and see what else you were doing and reply suitably, if needed. You can't keep offending people and expect them to be silent. You brought IG things in OCC.
Personally i dont like the way "Jason" plays the game. He "Destroy" opposition with brute force... force them to leave island, force people to secede, give away regions etc. I guess all is within the rules... but still too brutal on my taste. I have not realized before this incident how damn serious those guys are when they play this game... scary.
-jaune
While I do have some concerns about the forum posts, I also think that you're perhaps taking all this a little too personally.
I recognize that it can be hard not to under the circumstances, but try to remember that this is a game that you're supposed to enjoy. Winning and losing is part of it. If you're not enjoying it anymore, for any reason, then I highly recommend taking a step back and giving yourself some time to de-stress. Battlemaster shouldn't be a chore...I strongly suggest you evaluate what you can do to make yourself feel better as a player.
2. Merlin's player is concerned that I, as a player of Jason, am doing something against him due to what happened inside game. I have to say that I don't even know you and you think I am crazy that I will come to your house shouting that why did you betray me? That will put serious questions on my sanity. I don't make enemies over internet. You have noting to fear.
3. Earlier, I said that it's all personal. If you are hurt by this, then you can tell mods to delete that post. I am sorry ;( If you feel that all my replies are offending, then you may ask the mods to take them down, they have my consent. Do whatever and feel good.
5. What do you want from me or what do you want to be done with me?
Personally i dont like the way "Jason" plays the game. He "Destroy" opposition with brute force... force them to leave island, force people to secede, give away regions etc.It was the Taran ruler who insisted that the Eston ruler AND Judge emigrate and the alternative to giving away some regions would be to take them all away and Rielston and Lyonese seceded all on their own.
How am I supposed to take it when the player in question states explicitly: "I play like this. It's all personal." He outright says that it is a personal issue. Not only that but he connects this directly to his in-game play style. That is even more concerning, because it suggests that while this may have begun as an IC dispute, he very likely began "playing" his character in a manner which reflected an out-of-game personal attack. I can understand being heated in an IC argument, but I can't understand playing an ongoing argument as both an IC and OOC dispute, and possibly having this OOC/personal play-style have real in-game effects by his character, whether they are written in an "Letter" msg or an "OOC msg." Perhaps, others see it differently, but I don't understand how I cannot take offense and make this connection when he has been so explicit about it.I believe it simply means that while some people can come out of the game and make plans to make Atamara "exciting" or "fun" and then go back IG and make it happen, others prefer to stay IG and respond to events IG and do not believe that OOC should drive events. As such, when IG is brought into an OOC forum it can easily be seen as a continuation of an IG dispute particularly when what is said in the forum is as contradictory as what is said IG as how the defendant sees it here: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg95788.html#msg95788 (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg95788.html#msg95788)
I have a character in the realm council of the Cagilan Empire and have knowledge of and participated in the recent IG events. On the case, both complainer and defendant are good players. One tries to make it fun and one takes the game seriously. Nothing wrong with both.
Some background info:
Merlin's intended actions were known to CE's realm council long before he announced it - more than a month ago as the letters are no longer in the database. However, we had asked the PM to keep all those letters safely. As such, resentment was already brewing for some time. The letters that were leaked were accepted as genuine. While we did not have the entire conversation from both sides, what we had was damming enough for the whole council to unanimously agree.
On the case:
The Magistrate system is:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html)
- for resolving in-game disputes
- Any and all in-characters disputes (i.e. between characters) are to be resolved in-game
Anything that spills over into the forums should be brought to the attention of the various Forum Moderators.
IMO:
A simple OOC message IG to clearly define that any 'attacks' are purely IG should clear things up.
As such, when IG is brought into an OOC forum it can easily be seen as a continuation of an IG dispute particularly when what is said in the forum is as contradictory as what is said IG as how the defendant sees it here: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg95788.html#msg95788 (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg95788.html#msg95788)
I have a character in the realm council of the Cagilan Empire and have knowledge of and participated in the recent IG events. On the case, both complainer and defendant are good players. One tries to make it fun and one takes the game seriously. Nothing wrong with both.
Some background info:
blah blah blah
The Magistrate system is:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html)
- for resolving in-game disputes
- Any and all in-characters disputes (i.e. between characters) are to be resolved in-game
Anything that spills over into the forums should be brought to the attention of the various Forum Moderators.
You should bring a case forward for actions by other players that violate the Inalienable Rights or break the Social Contract.
However, none of this or any of the other "background info" which you have provided is even remotely relevant to this case. This isn't a dispute between my character and Elegant's character, or a dispute between my character and CE, or anything concerning the plans regarding the Phoenix empire. This case is about the violation of the fair play clause of the social contract over the course of both forum posts and in-game messages that may have stemmed from what "began" as an IC conflict.It is relevant as it is assumed that the player of Elegant is doing IC attacks totally on his own - he is not - Elegant as PM of CE speaks for the realm council and the Empire and it is his duty to safeguard the realm. It also provides background on why he may be extreme about it and that the feeling of betrayal by a long-standing ally and former offspring runs deeper than the betrayal by Carelia.
Also, your statement is based upon the assumption that this is purely an in-character dispute and this is probably based upon the position your character holds on CE's realm council. You've seen primarily that side of the story at this point.My statement that "A simple OOC message IG to clearly define that any 'attacks' are purely IG should clear things up" is simply due to the fact that he is "harrassing" you not only on the forums but also IG? That he cannot differentiate between IC and OOC - yes? Actually, I can see you side definitely. As a player you want to make a difference for the players, shake things up for the players, make things fun for the players, and how dare the player of Elegant not see and appreciate this. I am saying that as far as he can tell and from what he believes the truth is not being told IG or on the forums. That is why he is on the forums to correct it.
Not at all but if he believes you're misrepresenting things he may feel compelled to come and correct it, yes?
Are you saying it is acceptable to take what begins as an in-game dispute to become an out-of-game and player dispute? That seems extremely backwards and something which would be highly discouraged not just by the social contract but general acceptance of what should be done in any sort of game setting.
How is any of this at all relevant to the case? The accusation is that Elegant has moved from engaging in an IC dispute to OOC harassment. Yet, none of your massive wall of text has anything to do with that! Do not derail cases with irrelevant information.Already explained above. For future, if you are not sure be sure to ask. Then it won't look like you don't know.
Where on earth did you get this load of bull?Always fun when Ban brings his Bull in. Can I safely ask if this insulting comment is considered harassment or will he start claiming derailment again or maybe even delete my post? Or if the "Magistrates have jurisdiction over the forums" thing come through, maybe I can open a case too?
The job of the moderators is to prevent things from getting out of hand, not to hand out punitive measures. Look at the topic you just linked again. It explicitly says:Have they prevented things from getting out of hand? A warning post maybe? My eyes may have missed it but sure, let's see the link. Sure, it's about a social contract violation. I'm saying the jurisdiction should be only for IG messages and not the forum. The reason will be below.
This is very clearly a case about Social Contract violations, or do you dispute that?
Fury,I got it, thanks. Apparently, I had forgotten about it but looking at the backroom thread on it, my stand has been consistent. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3365.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3365.0.html) (backroom access needed)
Please re-read our verdict here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3357.30.html
3. Earlier, I said that it's all personal. If you are hurt by this, then you can tell mods to delete that post. I am sorry ;( If you feel that all my replies are offending, then you may ask the mods to take them down, they have my consent. Do whatever and feel good.
5. What do you want from me or what do you want to be done with me?
That is neither for me to say or determine. That is up to the Magistrates. But, I do feel that the play-style which you have not only demonstrated, but touted to all of Atamara due to your position to be harmful to the game and me as a player.
2. Jason was against Merlin. But, Charles did not speak against Merlin. Also, either Jason or Charles did not speak against Eragon Silverfire. It may be possible that Charles and Merlin can become friends because Charles and Jason don't like each other much. Therefore, it is not one person against another person in game. It is purely character vs character.
3. Whatever I say in forums may or may not say anything about my characters in game. If the player is hurt by my forum posts, I have already offered the solution to delete posts and even asked what he wants, I don't like what I did in forums.
Certainly it is relevant if you are not sure what led to the continuation on the forums and if you are assuming that the player of Elegant is unable to distinguish between IC and OOC. I am providing basis for the vitriolic.
It appears to me that Elegant is attempting to apologize and make amends. In that case, I think that his question, "What do you want from me or what do you want to be done with me?," is deserving of an answer from Silverfire.
I want him to recognize the fact that the play style which he has admitted to taking is harmful to the game and/or other players when he comes into conflict with them, and realize that a simple apologize doesn't solve the issues created from that style of play.
While I can understand that he wants to make amends, I don't think such is possible without him realizing that the actions he takes go beyond simply a one-time thing which you can delete by a mod. Through his character, he represents a lot of people and characters in the game. If he represents a play-style which goes against the Social Contract then he is representing such to all of the characters under his leadership as that being okay.
I fundamentally feel that such manner of playing is simply not okay.
So, what I want done is for the Magistrates to rule on whether this personal style of play is indeed against the Social Contract as originally stated in my OP, and then if it is against the Social Contract to make sure that such play doesn't propagate further so that others aren't harmed in the same way I feel I was. What specifically that would entail, I don't know. The Magistrates have all seen many more cases and situations than I and would know better than me how to correct a situation like this under these specific circumstances.
Certainly it is relevant if you are not sure what led to the continuation on the forums and if you are assuming that the player of Elegant is unable to distinguish between IC and OOC. I am providing basis for the vitriolic.
On advocation, having read Elegant's letters I am in a unique position to understand his state of mind and motivations, including the player behind it. I would think this would be valuable contribution. And with the tide of opinion against him, I will definitely balance it up.
As for appearance of bias, as has been generally agreed upon on having a character in the same realm as either party for any case, I will be abstaining from voting for the verdict but not on any general voting for jurisdiction which was never held. Everything I say are not decisions but Points that I make. If they sound like decisions maybe it's because there's truth in them.
We are assuming nothing of the sort. By Elegant's own admission, there is no difference between OOC and IC motivation for him.Exactly - like there is no difference between OOC and IC motivation for Merlin? OOC plan to avoid "stagnation" on Atamara and IC carry it out?
I want him to recognize the fact that the play style which he has admitted to taking is harmful to the game and/or other players when he comes into conflict with them, and realize that a simple apologize doesn't solve the issues created from that style of play.He has apologized where he didn't need to. If we can play at our own pace, we can sure as well play in our own style. Using OOC concerns to IC shake up IG is also a play style that many seem to like but just as many who don't as it breaks up the RP in an OOC way.
...and then if it is against the Social Contract to make sure that such play doesn't propagate further so that others aren't harmed in the same way I feel I was.
If we can play at our own pace, we can sure as well play in our own style.
Right now, this is ONE character against another ONE character. IG, that is all you have. If we can destroy realms, we can sure destroy characters. In the forum, all I see is him countering what you say and you countering back. This happens everyday in the forum.
There are three more inputs I would like to say:
1. I opened up all the letters to see how many letters did I send and how many days it was done. Here is statistics:
First letter sent about 6 days ago and last letter (closing the matter with General Wind) was sent about 2 days ago. So, it all happened between 4 days period.
No. of letters sent to all members of League = 7
No. of letters sent to elders = 9
Where is that claim of 50 letter spam and harassment?
2. I understand from discussions that Merlin's player is focusing on the word "personal" said by me. Is there any in-game proof (like, my char attacking your other char or my other char attacking your chars?)
3. I said it was personal because I wanted to be sarcastic on the person who commented that I am taking it too personal. See the post. I did not know that Merlin will get offended due to my sarcasm on that other person.
Sorry, let me be more specific. I have personally received 38 messages from Elegant's character in the past 30 days. Excluding all messages before Elegant's character Jason began insinuating Merlin had betrayed him, leaves 36 total messages. These messages begin starting 13 days ago up through two-days ago. They were sent through a variety of channels including: All members of the League, Elders of the League, Rulers Channel, private correspondence between Jason and Merlin, private correspondence between Jason, Merlin, and the General of CE, and private correspondence between Jason, Merlin, and other rulers of the League.
Nearly every single one of those messages suggests a betrayal by my character. All restated over and over again in slightly different terms.
Also, these are only the messages which I personally have access to. I don't know what other letters have been sent by Jason in-game to fulfill what seems to be an OOC hate from my point of view. What both Elegant's player and I both know (and has been stated previously) is that CE's realm council which includes both Jason and Fury, have had access to portions of Merlin's private correspondence for multiple weeks to a month. So, I can't be sure how long this attitude has gone on or been used to affect in-game events.
3. You can't be sarcastic about certain things. You can't "sarcastically" tell someone that if they don't log on at sunset they'll be banned. You don't "sarcastically" be rude to players you don't know who may not know you are joking, and you certainly shouldn't "sarcastically" support a dogma of gaming which is detrimental to game play.
The matter here being discussed is about the exposure of Merlin by Jason.
The matter here being discussed is about the exposure of Merlin by Jason. Which happened about 6-7 days ago. Before that, there were different discussions, which did not show conflict on the exposure matter. You can't count 30 days. Also, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 messages sent by Jason between Jason, Merlin and Enri on this matter. Rulers channel also not much (I will count tomorrow may be 2 or 3).
You want to discuss in game events now?
If the Magistrates want the html file of my messages received from Jason in-game post here or send me a private message and I'll attach the file to you privately so you can have it in the backroom for viewing.
3. You can't be sarcastic about certain things. You can't "sarcastically" tell someone that if they don't log on at sunset they'll be banned. You don't "sarcastically" be rude to players you don't know who may not know you are joking, and you certainly shouldn't "sarcastically" support a dogma of gaming which is detrimental to game play.
This is another serious accusation I think if it is true.
This is another serious accusation I think if it is true.
I don't think it is. I think it's just an example that Silverfire is using to illustrate his point.
Question for you, Slverfire–
In concrete terms, what is it that Elegant has done that you think is wrong? How do you expect the Magistrates to word their description of his "style of play?" Something about number of messages sent? What do you expect us to rule on, here?
I sympathize with your line of reasoning and I'm inclined to support it: but where I get confused is on exactly what we're supposed to be saying. We can't just say, "Elegant's style of play is bad!" we need to be able to saywhat exactly about it is bad. SO what is it? I'm unclear on that point.
Is it just that he is personally involved in his characters? Damn, that's a lot of people we've just ruled against! And it's some of the most fun players too, who do get personally involved. Is it about the degree of personal involvement? What is it precisely stated that you are alleging is bad, and which has therefore injured your playing of the game on an OOC basis, and therefore allegedly violating the Social Contract?
The magistrates can deny players council positions ? That is very curious and I'm not sure it would be an appropriate punishment in any case.Council positions are powerful and have more responsibility, thus they are subject to more rules than other people and if they can't follow them, then perhaps they shouldn't be a council member for a while so they can change their thinking on the matter. While not entirely explicitly said, it is from the Government rules page, which you should have read as you have a character being a banker. Page is here. (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Government_rules)
The magistrates can deny players council positions ? That is very curious and I'm not sure it would be an appropriate punishment in any case.
I just want to thank the Magistrates for their taking the time to hear this case.
I also want to accept Elegant's apology now as it seems I wasn't completely in the right on this case. It is best to move on and play anew.
My only question of the Magistrates is concerning why it took so long for this case to come to a conclusion. It seems to me as if the deliberations were unduly long, and I would request that in the future for any case, a more timely process to be incorporated if at all possible.