BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Lorgan on March 03, 2013, 06:52:43 PM
-
Dwilight(BM?)'s first mercenary company has been founded in Outer Giask.
Captain General Kamron Lorganson is now scouring the continent for warriors who wish naught but battles, gold and the finer things in life.
Abandon your life of boredom and responsibilities for one of adventure and perpetual war now and get a barrel of Dragon's Spit for FREE upon signing your contract!
-
So...you're angling to get force-deported, then, are you?
Mercenaries led by high nobles are not SMA. This is absolutely, 100% inappropriate for Dwilight.
Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.
-
So...you're angling to get force-deported, then, are you?
Mercenaries led by high nobles are not SMA. This is absolutely, 100% inappropriate for Dwilight.
Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.
The first well organised mercenaries in Italy were the Ventura Companies of Duke Werner von Urslingen and Count Konrad von Landau. Werner’s company differed from other mercenary companies because its code of military justice imposed discipline and an equal division of the contract’s income.
Tell that to the Italians.
-
The first well organised mercenaries in Italy were the Ventura Companies of Duke Werner von Urslingen and Count Konrad von Landau.
That dude was born after 1300, which puts him outside BattleMaster's target time frame of 700-1300.
-
would you consider the hundred years war a medieval conflict?
-
So...you're angling to get force-deported, then, are you?
Mercenaries led by high nobles are not SMA. This is absolutely, 100% inappropriate for Dwilight.
Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.
Why on earth would this be an SMA violation?
-
would you consider the hundred years war a medieval conflict?
My opinion as to whether or not something is "medieval" is irrelevant. I'm no medieval scholar or authority. But if it didn't happen during the period of approximately 700-1300, you shouldn't use it as justification for things that are appropriate for Dwilight. (That time frame is somewhere on the wiki...) There are, obviously, exceptions to all rules. But that time period is a good guideline to what can and cannot be considered as "justifiable" for SMA.
-
SMA has absolutely nothing to do with historical accuracy. It has to do with atmosphere, people.
Can any of you point to me anything in the guidelines that would be violated by this? Because I've been looking through them for the last twenty minutes and still haven't found anything.
-
I'm not trying to claim it is acceptable or not. I'm just commenting about the time period used for examples.
As for the mercenary thing, I'm fairly certain that Tom has said in the past that the noble-led mercenary thing is not acceptable, and he has vetoed all attempts to allow such a thing to be easier or officially implemented. There's no way I'm going to be able to find a quote, so I'm going to stay out of the debate on this topic.
-
I'm not trying to claim it is acceptable or not. I'm just commenting about the time period used for examples.
As for the mercenary thing, I'm fairly certain that Tom has said in the past that the noble-led mercenary thing is not acceptable, and he has vetoed all attempts to allow such a thing to be easier or officially implemented. There's no way I'm going to be able to find a quote, so I'm going to stay out of the debate on this topic.
I would note that this can be seen in the fact that a mercenary army that's part of a realm will have a very hard time actually operating as a mercenary army without explicit diplomatic support from the realm—in other words, if you want to be at war with a realm that you've been hired to fight, you need your realm to declare war on them.
And if you've been hired to fight a realm that's an ally of an ally...what are you going to do?
(And that's not even considering the other side—how will you fight alongside someone you've been hired to defend without your realm allying with them?)
-
I would note that this can be seen in the fact that a mercenary army that's part of a realm will have a very hard time actually operating as a mercenary army without explicit diplomatic support from the realm—in other words, if you want to be at war with a realm that you've been hired to fight, you need your realm to declare war on them.
And if you've been hired to fight a realm that's an ally of an ally...what are you going to do?
(And that's not even considering the other side—how will you fight alongside someone you've been hired to defend without your realm allying with them?)
I believe Lorgan's idea is to join a realm that hired his mercs which is very different from what Darka did.
-
Can I hire you as more fodder for the Orvandeaux Battailon Etrangere? We like our foreigner soldiers.
-
Do you like challenges? Join Barca to create the "Legion for Barcan Liberation" to help us to fight for freedom against the tyrannical Aurvandilians! :P
-
Whats your prices?
-
Whats your prices?
That is the proper response.
-
So...you're angling to get force-deported, then, are you?
Mercenaries led by high nobles are not SMA. This is absolutely, 100% inappropriate for Dwilight.
Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.
Ah, that is good to know, for now I shall be able to avoid setting my unit to mercenary in the future, thereby evading forced deportation.
-
Finding examples of noble led mercenaries between 700 and 1300 AD is complicated mainly by the fact that the concept of 'noble' in that period (especially towards the start) was much more fluid than it is in Battlemaster...
-
The Varangian Guard was a mercenary bodyguard unit in the Byzantine empire. Mostly made out of Vikings, and among Vikings you where a noble if you held enough land for farming and maintaining men and ships. Um, not sure if I am helping here. But basicly.
Viking noble gather his men on his longboat, goes to Turkey, serves as bodyguard for a couple of years, get paid richly, returns home and increases his land.
**edit** And they were active during 10th to the 14th century.
-
Which I'm reasonably sure I've told you before.
Indeed, months ago you told me that I'd have to find historical examples. I wasn't ready at all to found it yet so I quickly looked it up and found that Duke Werner von Urslingen, satisfied I considered it done and kind of forgot about it... That it's till 1300 will make this a tad more difficult but I'll be looking for better examples.
That said, I do not think this company would hurt the medieval atmosphere of Dwilight. It's just a place for people who don't care about the heavy, heavy politicking on Dwilight and just wish to fight, continuously. It doesn't hurt the politicking people in any way and even provides them with more tools. An ambitious King of a smaller realm could hire us to finally rise up against his bigger neighbour. A King of a big realm could use us for his reign of oppression. A Duke to support his secession or rebellion. Or some grand schemer to shape the continent to his hand.
The war on Aurvandil can't unite the continent forever. Either Aurvandil will die and other conflicts will ensue or the currently deadlocked continent will break open and an army for sale may just be the thing to speed up either of those courses and bring the continent more dynamic again.
Besides, mercenaries were a very common sight in much if not all of BM's period, it's more unmedieval to not have them than it is to go a little outside of that period for actual prominent nobility to join mercenary ventures and allow this to be player driven.
Edit: And that doesn't mean that these mercenaries can't be scorned for being landless and fighting for gold. Others don't have to see us as upright citizens, we're not. We don't aspire to become lord or duke of a realm, we're happy being knights and fighting.
-
The idea that there was a uniform code to which all nobility adhered is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous when you consider how loosely other aspects of the game are expected to mirror history. So, riding around the kingdom, fighting undead in the name of the Supreme Chancellor is historically accurate, but a noble who sells his military service in exchange for wealth isn't. Never mind the fact that that's literally what nobles did, it is still historically false, based on some vague, perhaps even non-existent, interpretation of Europe circa 700-1300AD.
-
This is silliness. There exists ample historical evidence placing mercenary companies—even ones led by high nobility—well within the span of time being given. There's even a name for these things: Routiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routiers)). Some other examples pulled out of my head on the spot. Condottieri were active before 1300, as early as 1212. William the Conqueror made liberal use of Flemish mercenaries. William of Ypres, Earl of Kent, organized and led an entire cohort of them for King Stephen of England from 1139 to 1154. The Byzantine Empire institutionalized the Varangian Guard, which for quite some time was commanded by the future king of Norway, Harald III.
-
Whatever you may think of the idea, the fact remains that Tom has explicitly stated his opposition to mercenary nobles, especially under SMA.
So the burden of proof is on Lorgan to show that it should be allowed, and Tom is the one you need to convince.
-
Whatever you may think of the idea, the fact remains that Tom has explicitly stated his opposition to mercenary nobles, especially under SMA.
So the burden of proof is on Lorgan to show that it should be allowed, and Tom is the one you need to convince.
I remember that Tom has stated his opposition to mercenary as a new class, and also to making in any way easier to play the game as a rogue. None of this is asked here however. Fighting for money is extremely common, this is just calling it by its name.
-
I remember that Tom has stated his opposition to mercenary as a new class, and also to making in any way easier to play the game as a rogue. None of this is asked here however.
He has also stated his belief that nobles acting as mercenaries would not be fitting.
Fighting for money is extremely common, this is just calling it by its name.
And that makes a world of difference. Especially in the sort of setting we're supposed to be playing on Dwilight.
-
Of all the non SMA crap that goes on in Dwilight, I'm bewildered as to why someone RPing a Mercenary company is this big a deal.
I'm not saying it is kosher SMA, I'm just saying their is a lot of other worse stuff that goes on that nobody really seems to care about.
-
Of all the non SMA crap that goes on in Dwilight, I'm bewildered as to why someone RPing a Mercenary company is this big a deal.
I'm not saying it is kosher SMA, I'm just saying their is a lot of other worse stuff that goes on that nobody really seems to care about.
First: Just because Person A is doing something bad and being ignored doesn't mean that when Person B announces his intention to do something bad, we should ignore him, too.
Second: If you believe there are SMA infractions occurring on Dwilight, report them to the Titans.
That's what the SMA Report button on the Messages page is for. You don't get to complain about people doing non-SMA things on Dwilight and nothing happening about it if you know about it and don't report it yourself.
-
Everytime some people say: "Tom said it...", believe me, it's better to ask him again and now you have a Forum and the thread right here to try to get his direct answer. It's always better than: "I remember he said..."
In my opinion the Varangian Guard is a perfect example for someone seeking examples as foundations to agree or not with this idea.
-
I have to echo other people's doubts, this does not seem like an SMA violation. There are plenty of medieval examples of noble mercenaries and it seems like very fitting for the Battlemaster world, heck, especially in the unstable powderkeg that is Dwilight. I think the examples supplied in this thread are enough to support it fits in a Serious Medieval Atmosphere.
-
Everytime some people say: "Tom said it...", believe me, it's better to ask him again and now you have a Forum and the thread right here to try to get his direct answer. It's always better than: "I remember he said..."
Well, I don't disagree with this. Tom does change his mind, though on some topics it's more likely than others. This not being one of those where I recall him ever saying, "No, not ever, over my dead body and burning remains of the BattleMaster server," it's not impossible that he would change his mind on it.
Until he does, however, his previous word does stand.
-
I didn't mention about him changing his mind, but without a specific quote on the specific subject is difficult to be 100% sure. I'm not trying to challenge your word, but I believe it would be very nice to have a confirmation from him.
It's like the "elf thing" in Sirion... it's always about someone trying to remember what he said about the subjetc.
-
I didn't mention about him changing his mind, but without a specific quote on the specific subject is difficult to be 100% sure. I'm not trying to challenge your word, but I believe it would be very nice to have a confirmation from him.
It's like the "elf thing" in Sirion... it's always about someone trying to remember what he said about the subjetc.
Tim can be trusted on what Tom said in the past. If you really want Tom to answer, send him a PM. Also, the elf thing has been answered officially already so I don't get what your trying to say there.
-
I'm not trying to say, I'm giving an example.
And I don't want to PM him, but it would be good for the people who have interests in this "guild".
-
I'm not trying to say, I'm giving an example.
And I don't want to PM him, but it would be good for the people who have interests in this "guild".
If you can't take the effort to PM Tom, then quit whining that you want an official response from him.
-
I'm not whining... but this game is too big and have too many options to discuss, so we don't need this kind of defensive posture and people saying: "You cannot do that!". Now the others can PM him and read it from him. Very simple.
-
I'm not whining... but this game is too big and have too many options to discuss, so we don't need this kind of defensive posture and people saying: "You cannot do that!". Now the others can PM him and read it from him. Very simple.
Just saying Tim is pretty much Tom's right hand AFAIK, so Tim isn't just some random person stating something. I do agree that if I or someone not on the dev team tried to state something on Tom's position related to something we should either give proof or at least state its only our memory, not necessarily fact, but I consider random people and dev team members saying something very different.
-
If you do it, and have appropriate justification to back it up, I'd gamble you are rather safe. If you do it and it ends up Tom doesn't like it, I doubt he'll be harsh, because it'd have clearly been done with good intent and with appropriate background justification. As others have said, there are plenty of pre-1300 examples of things like these, and many aspects of the game don't fit pre-1300 anyways, but closer to 1500. Just be wary of how to make it happen, with regards to oaths.
-
Just be wary of how to make it happen, with regards to oaths.
But...do we still have those? And besides, the oath could easily be: "I pledge to fight for your cause for the sum of 200 gold per week".
Which is basically what knights do anyways.
-
But...do we still have those? And besides, the oath could easily be: "I pledge to fight for your cause for the sum of 200 gold per week".
Which is basically what knights do anyways.
Pretty much.
-
This seems like a natural evolution of the game to me. Plus it sets an interesting precedent. Consider what it would be like if/when Aurvandil was no more and all those knights, who hypothetically dislike all the other realms, sold their swords instead of their loyalty? Imagine what D'Hara might accomplish had we been at full economic strength to take advantage of such a movement?
0_0
-
This seems like a natural evolution of the game to me. Plus it sets an interesting precedent. Consider what it would be like if/when Aurvandil was no more and all those knights, who hypothetically dislike all the other realms, sold their swords instead of their loyalty? Imagine what D'Hara might accomplish had we been at full economic strength to take advantage of such a movement?
0_0
I know. I'm really eager for us to regain our pre-long winter wealth levels, but with the food stats running around, I don't think it'll be any time soon...
-
make this happennnnnn
i'm kinda upset this wasn't my idea after everguard fell, karibash would've hopped on board immediately.
he may still be partial to the idea, and he's not too bad at strategy I hear 8)
-
I know. I'm really eager for us to regain our pre-long winter wealth levels, but with the food stats running around, I don't think it'll be any time soon...
May the *coughTomcough* Bloodstars hear you...
-
It's not too bad of an idea. Whilst the idea of a "rogue" class of nobility is silly (you've got trader or infiltrator, or messaging/deals/alliances) to play that out, adventurers can also fulfill the role to a certain degree. Low chances of success, little but useful information gained, no major realm changing events. Can join guilds just as easily as nobles (for 5 gold, then set borrowing limits relatively high). As spies they're excellent, very low cost, and can be quite interesting to play. But this is a digression, it's up to you to flesh out a roguish character of whatever class, there are enough mechanics and RP opportunities to do so.
But a mercenary class? Is it possible under the current game mechanics? You could just ask for bonds and stipends from nobles in your realm, but it does mean that you need a good idea of alliances and bank locations to change them out on the field. As a group of mercenaries from one realm it also brings up the question of three sided battles or the ability to attack your realm's ally's lands.
I find it an interesting subject simply for the mechanics of whether it can be done successfully and for how long. As well as the inevitable consequences of it in realm diplomacy. Various examples exist in history, some well outside the time period or scope of BM, but it may be an interesting character concept. For some reason the privateers of the Carribean come to mind of the consequences of these action. Both sides may end up declaring you pirate and decide to hang you.
Never-the-less....... Sick of LN's drivel with an established character? Get orders, get money, get friends, go fight a private war. Make sure they're good friends or you'll get banned from your realm. Make sure they pay you a lot. What will happen during a three-sided battle, or when you and your company of mercs all being set to murderous so you can attack supposed allies is up to the dice gods.
Sounds horribly fun really.
-
I know. I'm really eager for us to regain our pre-long winter wealth levels, but with the food stats running around, I don't think it'll be any time soon...
Well I am replying to this super late ( a month to be exact) the food rebalance will have an increase in food for Dwilight.