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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Dante Silverfire on March 08, 2013, 10:00:04 AM

Title: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Dante Silverfire on March 08, 2013, 10:00:04 AM
So, the game says that a "normal" tax rate is 10%, but I've never run a region at only 10% tax. While you can leave a region at 10% and it will literally never have any issues, you're essentially wasting free gold.

I've found you can run a 14-15% tax rate in most places without any additional problems.

You can run an even higher tax rate of 17-19% depending upon region location, and still only have to occasionally hold courts as far as I am aware.

Meanwhile, pushing your region over 20% I've seen as fairly common as long as you are willing to hold regular (or daily) court sessions.

So, I'm curious as to what people consider a "Normal" tax rate, and what you run your own regions at and for what reasons.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: vonGenf on March 08, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
So, I'm curious as to what people consider a "Normal" tax rate, and what you run your own regions at and for what reasons.

14%, 15% and 16%, in order of the likelihood that a monster horde would decide to make the region their homes for a few days. Higher taxes would mean I would need to come back sometimes or ask a courtier to help once in a while.

I tend to agree that 15% is pretty normal, 10% is really low. However I also remember that before the new system came in, I ran knightless regions at 11-12%; only regions with full coverage could handle 15% without work.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Bael on March 08, 2013, 03:53:09 PM
Yeah, about 16% if you want the region to self-regulate. You can get more though, with just a  bit of attention. Pretty much what vonGenf said. I will be trying for 22% in a region soon, see how it does.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 08, 2013, 03:57:19 PM
I run both of my regions at 19% and never have to hold court.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Bael on March 08, 2013, 03:57:59 PM
I run both of my regions at 19% and never have to hold court.

How close is it to the capital, and what do the people around you tax?

My region is quite far from the capital (Skalk on Atamara, CE)
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: ^ban^ on March 08, 2013, 04:54:08 PM
Comparing these numbers across islands is not useful, guys. Acceptable tax rates vary between them.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: vonGenf on March 08, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
Comparing these numbers across islands is not useful, guys. Acceptable tax rates vary between them.

Really? That's a surprise to me. How? Why?
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Chenier on March 08, 2013, 04:59:30 PM
Really? That's a surprise to me. How? Why?

A continent's realm size average, perhaps.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: vonGenf on March 08, 2013, 05:04:07 PM
A continent's realm size average, perhaps.

I know the 'acceptable tax rate' varies from one realm to another depending on its size. Why should it vary according to other realms' size?
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Chenier on March 08, 2013, 05:18:57 PM
I know the 'acceptable tax rate' varies from one realm to another depending on its size. Why should it vary according to other realms' size?

Because, as far as I know, the continent's average realm size is taken into consideration. I'm not sure if acceptable taxes are linear to realm size alone, but rather to the realm's size as opposed to the average.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Anaris on March 08, 2013, 05:20:55 PM
Because, as far as I know, the continent's average realm size is taken into consideration. I'm not sure if acceptable taxes are linear to realm size alone, but rather to the realm's size as opposed to the average.

And this is to ensure that acceptable taxes are not dramatically higher or lower on one continent or another simply because the continent supports larger or smaller realms in general. It means that on average, acceptable taxes should be pretty comparable from one continent to another.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 08, 2013, 06:26:47 PM
How close is it to the capital, and what do the people around you tax?

My region is quite far from the capital (Skalk on Atamara, CE)

One region is right next to the capital, the other is three regions removed. In both cases the other Lords of the realm have very low tax rates, generally 8-12% would be my guess.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Vellos on March 08, 2013, 07:16:42 PM
I run my capital-city in a small realm at 20% right now; considering a bump up to 25% or 30% as long as we're at peace.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Zakilevo on March 08, 2013, 10:51:30 PM
Pretty sure you can't go higher than 25%
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Dante Silverfire on March 11, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
So, I just increased my region's tax rate from 19% to 22% and instead of "peasants complaining of high taxes"

I'm now getting this response: "Taxes are too high, hurting production and trade."

My production dropped 6% in one day in addition to a 10% morale drop.

The morale drop I can deal with, and can fix with regular courts. I was expecting it, but I wasn't expecting the production drop. Is that going to be normal? I figure I probably can't maintain these levels of taxes if it is even if I keep morale above 90%.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Indirik on March 11, 2013, 08:07:52 PM
Yes, high taxes can cause production drops.

It gets even worse as you go higher. You haven't hit the rough spot yet.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Dante Silverfire on March 11, 2013, 08:25:48 PM
Yes, high taxes can cause production drops.

It gets even worse as you go higher. You haven't hit the rough spot yet.

How is it then that some people have claimed to have maintained such high tax rates? If it drops your production, it doesn't matter if you can maintain morale. You're still making it worse by having a higher tax rate than a lower one.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Anaris on March 11, 2013, 08:30:32 PM
Because they have regions in very good circumstances (eg, capital of a small realm) and believe that it's not only acceptable, but normal, for the Lord to sit in his region holding court, doing police/civil work, and surveying the administration constantly. (And consequently, they have very high bureaucracy skills.)

Then they assume that everyone can run tax rates like this, and claim that anyone who's running "only" 18% is a wimp who's obviously just wasting money, because 25% is the tax rate you're "supposed" to be running.  :P
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Dante Silverfire on March 11, 2013, 08:34:02 PM
Because they have regions in very good circumstances (eg, capital of a small realm) and believe that it's not only acceptable, but normal, for the Lord to sit in his region holding court, doing police/civil work, and surveying the administration constantly. (And consequently, they have very high bureaucracy skills.)

Then they assume that everyone can run tax rates like this, and claim that anyone who's running "only" 18% is a wimp who's obviously just wasting money, because 25% is the tax rate you're "supposed" to be running.  :P

Huh.

I was going to say, that since I'm not a courtier, that essentially it is impossible for me to run a tax rate that causes production to drop, because I have no way to restore it effectively. I can hold constant courts but that won't make any difference on the production.

By the way, are the only things that effect the region stats, the stuff that is listed on the daily region report? In other words, are the green, white, and red reports the only things I can adjust to make a higher tax rate easier to maintain?
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Bael on March 11, 2013, 08:34:49 PM
Yeah, I'm running 22% on Beluaterra on the opposite side of the realm to the capital. It takes quite a bit of work!
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Anaris on March 11, 2013, 08:35:28 PM
By the way, are the only things that effect the region stats, the stuff that is listed on the daily region report? In other words, are the green, white, and red reports the only things I can adjust to make a higher tax rate easier to maintain?

I believe that the most appropriate answer would be, "No, but the other stuff is harder for you to adjust."
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 11, 2013, 10:55:47 PM
Because they have regions in very good circumstances (eg, capital of a small realm) and believe that it's not only acceptable, but normal, for the Lord to sit in his region holding court, doing police/civil work, and surveying the administration constantly. (And consequently, they have very high bureaucracy skills.)

Then they assume that everyone can run tax rates like this, and claim that anyone who's running "only" 18% is a wimp who's obviously just wasting money, because 25% is the tax rate you're "supposed" to be running.  :P

No one said or believes that.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Penchant on March 11, 2013, 10:56:36 PM
No one said or believes that.
It seems like you imply it quite a bit.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 12, 2013, 12:10:17 AM
Can you give an example of me, or anyone else, 'implying' that "it's not only acceptable, but normal, for the Lord to sit in his region holding court, doing police/civil work, and surveying the administration constantly." or that "they assume that everyone can run tax rates like this, and claim that anyone who's running "only" 18% is a wimp who's obviously just wasting money, because 25% is the tax rate you're "supposed" to be running."
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Penchant on March 12, 2013, 12:15:33 AM
Can you give an example of me, or anyone else, 'implying' that "it's not only acceptable, but normal, for the Lord to sit in his region holding court, doing police/civil work, and surveying the administration constantly." or that "they assume that everyone can run tax rates like this, and claim that anyone who's running "only" 18% is a wimp who's obviously just wasting money, because 25% is the tax rate you're "supposed" to be running."
I can see the necessity for one or two thousand CS of militia, but that by itself wouldn't eat up all of the free tax gold. Even a major city like Golden Farrow requires only one hundred food a day. It would cost three hundred-fifty gold per week to feed it's population. Meanwhile, it produces a gross two thousand gold per day. Even assuming a very modest tax rate of 15%, the city would yield 1,995 gold per week. Deduct the militia and infrastructure payments, which, given two thousand militia, should amount to no more than three hundred gold -- less than two hundred in most circumstances -- and you have 1,695 to be distributed amongst the Patron and his men. The Patron himself, through his estate and vessel taxes, could make away with at least 25%, if he was feeling generous, or upwards to 60% of it if he was not. Let's assume that he is neither generous nor greedy and so makes away with 40%, that gives him a personal salary of 678, of which three hundred-fifty would go towards food (assuming the food is premium price), giving him 328, after all is said and done with. This is a decent amount for a Lord who runs his region sub-optimally, for, as I explained in another thread, through truly exploitative measures you could wring far, far more gold out of a city than even this. Furthermore, this is discounting the duchy tax income. Still, even without it, even with the sub-optimal administration, the idea that food is costing city Lords their livelihood is exaggerated. If a city Lord is spending more than he makes then he can owe it entirely to his inefficient administration, because it is well within the realms of possibility for him to turn a profit, a much larger profit than even a rural Lord is capable of.
I can look for a post that implies it better if you would like.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 12, 2013, 12:24:27 AM
What, specifically, is that post meant to indict me of?
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Anaris on March 12, 2013, 12:51:59 AM
No one said or believes that.

This is untrue.

Your views are on this spectrum, but do not seem to go this far. However, I have seen those who have. Less so in recent times—such extremes may not have been seen since the forum started; I'm not sure.

But I'm not trying to indict you with anything, and for you to claim that "no one believes that" is something of an extraordinary claim. That requires extraordinary evidence.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 12, 2013, 02:07:18 AM
You made the claim, not I, the burden of evidence is on you.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Lorgan on March 12, 2013, 02:18:30 AM
Oh I've definitely said it at one time or another. Thing is though, I very much enjoy playing such a character. If you don't want to play like that, that's your right and the game is better for you playing exactly how you want to play.
But if I'm the one appointing you to a city, I'm going to expect to see you raking in that gold and I likely will go for a candidate who will do exactly that.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Kwanstein on March 12, 2013, 02:39:02 AM
Okay, that perspective I can buy. Originally, I couldn't see how Anaris's comment wasn't a strawman of my own posts, as I couldn't see what else he could be referencing, but now I see I was wrong.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Eldargard on March 12, 2013, 05:55:28 AM
My character is running taxes at 14% currently. I have not been lord of many regions of late and can not claim to know what is average, but I suspect that 10% is a little low.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Solari on March 12, 2013, 01:55:41 PM
I thought I answered this pretty thoroughly in another thread.

Median Tax Rates

By continent
EC: 15
AT: 14
BT: 14
Col: 12
FEI: 14.5
Dwi: 14

By region type
City: 15
Town: 13
Stronghold: 15
Rural: 14
Woodland: 13.5
Badland: 13

For every region in the game: 14

----

The averages are even lower. There is very little variation in these numbers within realms or even between realms. Takeaway: Your neighbor does not have some critical advantage that you are missing out on because you aren't committed enough. People need to stop treating the game like a simulator, attempting to squeeze every last ounce out of it. Do the tasks expected of your character's role and go battle/diplomacize/convert/trade something or someone.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Lorgan on March 12, 2013, 03:02:38 PM
Interesting.

I followed that quote to it's original thread and read something I really really need to comment on. So here are my apologies for mixing threads.

I've seen wars lost, or not started, because of lords running taxes too high and having to remain in their region to keep them under control.

The entire point of having gold is to make war. I would find very little satisfaction in sitting in my region all day, heaping up gold and having nothing to spend it on. Don't blame the lords who like the region management game, blame the lords who don't share their gold for the greater good, i.e. war.
Then kick the bastards out.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Penchant on March 13, 2013, 01:34:49 AM
Interesting.

I followed that quote to it's original thread and read something I really really need to comment on. So here are my apologies for mixing threads.

The entire point of having gold is to make war. I would find very little satisfaction in sitting in my region all day, heaping up gold and having nothing to spend it on. Don't blame the lords who like the region management game, blame the lords who don't share their gold for the greater good, i.e. war.
Then kick the bastards out.
And yet those who like region management also tend to be the ones too greedy to share, ipso facto the region management ones are the ones needing to be blamed.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Lorgan on March 13, 2013, 02:47:00 AM
And yet those who like region management also tend to be the ones too greedy to share, ipso facto the region management ones are the ones needing to be blamed.

Looks like I missed the memo on that one. Best stop sharing right away.
Title: Re: "Normal" Tax Rates
Post by: Penchant on March 13, 2013, 03:03:23 AM
Looks like I missed the memo on that one. Best stop sharing right away.
I said they tend to be, not that all are. The logic, being those who won't share are greedy and those who like region management are generally liking it only for the gold as they like to maximize their income.