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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Arrakis on March 12, 2013, 12:21:30 AM
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Greetings all. I have approached Tom with a plea for manually changing a realm name. Since realm names can only be chosen when seceding, it is impossible to change the name after certain interesting in game events happen. Tom has requested a forum topic to be opened in regards to this. I quote: I'm not sure if I've ever done a manual realm rename. I am very, very reluctant to do it. At the very least, I'd like to have a forum topic where more than one voice can be heard.
So, here's a long story short. Few years back a realm named Niselur has been founded on Dwilight. Boreal Arrakis was the founder and the first King of this realm. The realm was short-lived though, for the monsters tore it apart after the King died. Fast forwarding to present: the legacy of Niselur has been resurrected, although under a name of Iashalur and by a different monarch. Now, the heir of King Boreal has returned, and he overthrew the usurper and declared himself a King. But what good is a kingdom that doesn't bear the name of his forefather's legacy?
We have a very unique role-playing setting here: two royal houses that battled for a right to rule. Old royalists of Niselur won, and the heir of the first King has been crowned as King. The lands he now controls are the exact lands Niselur once possessed. I personally feel that there is no great harm to be made in accepting to manually change the name, while it simultaneously it would make a perfect in game sense. I am aware it might become a precedent, however, the reasons for name change are heavily rp-driven and real, in-game history supports this request.
What do you think?
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To be honest, I think it was less of a battle and more of one guy sneaking up on another and kicking him off the balcony. :P
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I know, but it is more epic when you put it the other way around. :D
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In certain circumstances, I don't think it's a bad idea. It has happened before, when Xinhai was renamed to Morek Empire.
However, I do think there needs to be some pretty strict limitations on it. the current situation in Iashalur is interesting. If Leopold can keep the throne, then it may be worthy of a name change to Niselur, which was founded by his relative years ago. That is far from certain so far, so it would deserve some kind of waiting period. But then what happens if Turin leads a campaign to take it back? Can he change the name back to Iashalur? Will we get into ping-ponging name changes?
Also, I think there should be some slight variation to the new name, and not just a duplication of the old name.
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Also, I think there should be some slight variation to the new name, and not just a duplication of the old name.
Maybe Astrocracy of Niselur ;)
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Maybe you could submit a form providing an in-game reason and then Tom could approve them all himself?
Just a thought.
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Maybe you could submit a form providing an in-game reason and then Tom could approve them all himself?
Just a thought.
It will likely be done that way, if it is done, but should it be allowed? In what circumstances? Pretty sure he wants a forum topic so the players can decide on this, instead of it just being a decision from above.
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I think this should be allowed. Even with minimal restrictions. How often would if really happen? Not all that often I don't think. And if it does, so what? What harm does that honestly cause? All it does is harm that realm's reputation of stability, which it should.
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Morek had changed its name to Xinhai for a while, before returning for Morek Empire, did they not?
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Morek had changed its name to Xinhai for a while, before returning for Morek Empire, did they not?
Not exatly. There was Morek, and then a part seceded to make Xinhai (and then the rest of Morek followed to Xinhai), and then from Xinhai seceded Morek Empire (and then the rest of Xinhai followed to Morek Empire).
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Close. The city of Donghaiwei seceded from Morek to form Xinhai. Later when Xinhai had expanded and recovered all the territory that the pld Morek had, and more, Tom granted their request and manually changed their name to Morek Empire. He would not let them use the prior name verbatim, having them make a small change.
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I agree. I wouldn't object to it if the Ruler in question (Arrakis in this case) can hold on the throne for a bit and there's some sort of general acceptance within the Realm to change the name (To avoid a powerplay that is going to be turned over immediately). I'd have the same opinion on Realm Government Type though, especially as you can set the Elections to mimic any system anyway (It shouldn't be easy, but it should be possible beyond setting up Rebellions or Secessions). I'm not sure if others agree with that, and I believe Realm Names fall in the same area of change. If it's not too much effort, I'd say such changes would be accompanied with quite some confusion amongst the peasants and unrest.
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I personally see no reason not to allow the change. I would even support the idea of this option being available to any ruler who has held office longer than X days. As has been mentioned before, the only harm is a loss of that realms reputation of stability. Go for it!
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Maybe you could submit a form providing an in-game reason and then Tom could approve them all himself?
Absolutely not. If it happens, it will be a very, very rare manual event, and providing an in-game form would create the impression it's something common.
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I have no problem with it but make it cost a good amount of gold and cause some unrest in the realm.
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Close. The city of Donghaiwei seceded from Morek to form Xinhai. Later when Xinhai had expanded and recovered all the territory that the pld Morek had, and more, Tom granted their request and manually changed their name to Morek Empire. He would not let them use the prior name verbatim, having them make a small change.
Also, this was done months after the original Morek went down. I agree it should not be made quickly, and ping-ponging is to be avoided.
I would also add the the custom titles are perfect for this. His Majesty Leopold Arrakis, the King of Niselur, Ruler of Iashalur.
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After Donghaiwei and Springdale seceded from Morek it was left with just Nifelhold. Someone sacked Nifelhold, I think it was Summerdale. While their army was attacking Allison showed up and joined in on the looting. I RP'ed looting the realm seals and a banner or two.
Before any of this even happened I had e-mailed Tom to ask him if this would be acceptable. He said if there was good RP reason for it he would do it, but not the exact same name. It was months later before we actually changed the name. When I looted the seals and banners of Old Morek I wasn't the ruler of Xinhai. I didn't change the name until later when I became ruler. When I wrote to Tom about the name change he told me no. I had to dig through my e-mails and send him the copy of his original e-mail telling me he would do it. Then I had to say "pretty, pretty please"
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I dislike doing realm changes.
You didn't refound Niselur. You could have: you could have seceded with Gaston, fought a war, conquered Iashalur, and had Niselur. You didn't. You chose to rebel and take control of Iashalur.
I very much like the idea of making a custom title, "King of Niselur, King of [Realm Name]"
Claim to be King of a United Monarchy, or claim to be king of multiple domains. Acquire copious titles. Go read the full titles of Medieval monarchs for more examples.
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There was an option where such secession was possible, but it didn't happen. Duke of Gaston, who didn't support Leopold, joined the loyalists and then lost all his titles when the rebellion was done. If he had remained neutral he would get a chance to either realign to Astrum, or make some sort of an arrangement with myself where he'd get to keep Iashalur and I could've seceded Darfix and recreated Niselur which would give us a nice little civil war.
Going the way you suggest (with secession and stuff) didn't really make sense to Leopold. At all. I would've done it if IC events played out differently but they haven't. I doubt it would make sense to any real medieval noble either. Why would a King try to break up his realm and then conquer it back again, when already all of his Kingdom answers to him? In real life, the King would just rename his land the way he wants it, however, we are limited by game mechanics in BM, which is why I plead to Tom to see whether he'd be willing to do it. Pretty pretty please :D
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I like the title change thing--why not simply change your title?
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I like the title change thing--why not simply change your title?
He can't. He can change it from king to supreme chancellor to whatever, but he can't change what it is of. It will always state of Iashalur. I support the name change, but I agree there should be some signs of stability before allowing it to prevent the ping-ponging. I also agree it shouldn't be the exact name. There have been recreations of realms in the past, but never did they use the exact name (That I know of anyways).
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If you win the rebellion, you're the ruler, so you can't secede.
Also, I think one of Tom's objection to name changes is that names are important. You don't just up and change the name of a country. If you can find adequate historical precedence, then that may help convince him. I know we've had this discussion on the forums before. I don't think anyone ever really did come up with good examples of countries just up and changing their names. (I could be wrong, though.)
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If you win the rebellion, you're the ruler, so you can't secede.
Also, I think one of Tom's objection to name changes is that names are important. You don't just up and change the name of a country. If you can find adequate historical precedence, then that may help convince him. I know we've had this discussion on the forums before. I don't think anyone ever really did come up with good examples of countries just up and changing their names. (I could be wrong, though.)
I have even better history to base it off, BM history. He did it once when it was stable and their was roleplay reason to do so, why not allow it now after there are clear signs of stability?
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I didn't say I didn't agree it could be done, with good enough basis, and certain conditions. But it depends on whether or not Tom thinks it's good. Historical basis will help your arguments.
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I didn't say I didn't agree it could be done, with good enough basis, and certain conditions. But it depends on whether or not Tom thinks it's good. Historical basis will help your arguments.
I know, its more of a general statement to those opposing it, but I guess its not very clearly implied that way.
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Niselu(r)ric King of Iashalur
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Assassin's Guild also became Assassins, in BM.
As for name changed in real medieval times, it did happen.. Like when the Kingdom of the Franks divided, and West Francia became know as the Kingdom of France during the Capetian Dynasty. Or, for the best example would be the Holy Roman Empire, in either incarnation. In fact, the HRE named such because of the lands it possessed and the declaration that they we're a continuation of the Western Roman Empire.
Given some stability over time, some penalties for name changes, since it's not like he's conquered so much more land and forming a new empire, I don't see it as too far fetched to see his kingdom name being changed to reference his past kingdom. Heck, Otto I took the name of Charlemagne's HRE when he felt like it, just like Charlemagne more or less did when he declared himself such after the western empire.
Let him have have his old cake, but give him some belly ache to let him and others know that it doesn't digest well.
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There is ample historical reason for this name change. I should know. I was involved in it from the beginning.
When the original Niselur (which was indeed founded by Boreal Arrakis) collapsed, Rowan Geronus prevailed upon Turin (Boreal having committed suicide or some such) and several other high profile refugees from Niselur to come to Astrum instead of Morek or Corsanctum. In return for joining Astrum and helping it expand (not to mention fight off monsters), Rowan promised to grant them the Duchy of Gaston from which to recreate Niselur and reclaim holy Darfix. Most of the refugees thus ended up settling in Astrum. However, the bargain I made with them was explicit - it was always about refounding Niselur and reclaiming Darfix in the name of Sanguis Astroism. The Niselurians called themselves the Exiles. They remained a distinct faction within Astrum for RL years. Eventually we did expand into Gaston and Turin was named Duke. I convinced him to stay part of Astrum until such a time as his Duchy was well populated and he had built up a respectable level of infrastructure. Turin was patient enough to agree to this common sense proposal.
Gaston eventually did secede, though later than planned thanks to the war with Averoth. Turin chose to name it Iashalur, but again, it was explicitly meant to be the second coming of old Niselur. It was not its own project; it was always tied to the history of the Kingdom that came before it. I think that renaming it to Niselur would be perfectly fitting. I have a feeling even Turin would accept it, since that's exactly what he worked toward for so many years.
Of course Rowan would not approve at all of what Leopold is doing now, as it's him who's the interloper and usurper at this point (after all he never lifted a finger to make Iashalur happen, nor did he endure the long exile), but that's another matter. I'd say that as long as the politics are given time to settle and it's clear that Leopold ends up being widely accepted as the King, the name change could be made with plenty and more historical RP reasons for doing so.
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I definitely agree that there is IG RP that would be more than adequate to support the change.
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Niselu(r)ric King of Iashalur
I think we all know the correct term is Niselurian.
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I was trying to be nice and NOT infer that he's a vile Lurian. >.>
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I think we all know the correct term is Niselurian.
I may have mentioned that, oops.
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I was trying to be nice and NOT infer that he's a vile Lurian. >.>
KILL! BURN! DESTROY!
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KILL! BURN! DESTROY!
Are you a Chaos Space Marine?
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Since when was killing, burning, and destroying only the scope of the Chaos Space Marines? The loyalist ones do the same thing!
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Nah they CLEANSE! PURGE! KILL!
There is a difference there! Somewhere....
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I am, of course, ok with there being a certain time limit for name change to happen (provided Tom agrees with it in the first place), even though it seems Leopold has well established his throne. I don't see ping pong scenario happening at all.
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I'd hate to sound impatient but I was wondering whether any final ruling has been made over this? Or do I just need to wait?
I have some realm advertising in mind and I was hoping of having a final realm name ready and a wiki page revamped before I do so.