| Summary: | OOC Harrassment after comments on poor RP |
| Violation: | Do not insult or harrass other players//Social Contract |
| World: | Beluaterra |
| Complainer: | Karel Scherpereel (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=28457) |
| About: | Kyle Douglass (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=32986) |
... one of the Magistrates has been muted.That was a mistake which has been corrected.
Kyle Douglass
As a player on Dwilight, I am simultaneously bored, disgusted, and beyond tired of dealing with childish and pathetic antics based solely on OOC drama. As such, !@#$ wasting time on a server that punishes proper SMA and encourages breaches of it's own rules. Beluaterra is the single greatest thing the game offers, and it is all due to it's lack of stagnation and OOC-IG blending. We need a full scale destructive invasion on DWI, at the very least.
Karel Scherpereel
Woah, QQ? Any concrete examples you want to see discussed?
Valentin Preceptor Hedman
Heh, dat's Dwilight for ya : D
Jim Gerdes
BELGIAN RAGE!!! I agree with you though, Beluaterra is pretty awesome (AT is starting to get interesting again too, as well as the big war on EC), and Dwilight is pretty terrible.
Dimitris Skiarxon
JAEGER SUCKS!
Dustin Olson
I like Dwilight. I am curious what this is about.
Dean Zammit
I have to completely Agree with Kyle here. Pretty much the reason I quit playing after all those years
Dean Zammit
Karel, If you lived in PeL since it was pretty much formed you'd know.
Karel Scherpereel
I've never been in PeL, but I've been around in Fissoa since before the foundation of Giask. Never heard much about OOC feuds, and always a lot of good things. In fact, should Skyn be killed against Alice I might get a new character there
Kyle Douglass
Karel Scherpereel: QQ? Ffs man, act like an adult not a whiny child. I've repeatedly tried to address the issue in game, and in the proper ooc channels. Nothing has been done, except by the rare few, to remedy the pestilence that has covered what was once the most promising island. Jim Gerdes I'm still in love with BT, and after having rejoined EC, I find it better than last time, but still a bit of a drone continent. Dimitris Skiarxon: you are just jealous ;) Dean Zammit: there is always Thal!
Dean Zammit
Can't deal with BM anymore, don't have the time :(
Karel Scherpereel
Holy !@#$, what's with the defensive attitude all the time. Give it a rest. Or QQ
Dean Zammit
Yes, because flaming with "QQ" didn't deserve that response.
This is not something a Magistrate should deal with , in fact i doubt this is something anyone in the game should bother with. Facebook is something adult people use, each of them for his personal reasons. We cannot judge people's behaviour or choice of words in there. We are not World Judges and Punishers here.
Another question to consider in a case like this is, would these two people be connected at all without Battlemaster in the middle? Probably not. No Battlemaster, no conflict. Could that fact imply that we have some responsibility here?
Whether or not it was provoked I don't see any reason to send a message that aggressive and just downright rude. This is not the first time the accused has been accused of such things. If there was a similar private message that started it then they are probably both as bad as each other.
There is a bit of a pattern here though with this complaint and others. Regardless of how we decide to treat this matter, I would advise that Woelfy carefully consider how he chooses to interact with other players of this game in the future, particularly players of characters with whom his characters do not get along. There is a very nasty, personal and vicious tone that seems to be present whenever we end up dealing with Woelfy in this Courthouse; I don't like it, and I don't think it has a place in this community.
I disagree with the tango argument, though, unless Kyle can provide something that shows I have been disrespectful to him in a way remotely similar to the facebook post. When I reacted on facebook I didn't even realise Kyle was Guile's player, it was only afterwards (when Skarxion added 'Jaeger sucks', and when I got Kyle's message). I would have reacted with QQ on anyone's post phrased in the way he did, more as a taunt to entice him to prove his point (because the initial post was very vague). I thought that was more than clear because of the question I added right after ('Any concrete examples you want to see discussed?').
Do you have a case?
Shizzle said "lets put it behind". Woelfy said "Reporting it, when it is something so childish, seems a waste of the magistrates time."
They don't want to go ahead with this also Woelfy delete his char and his email account therefore deleting all and every evidence.
I think the only decent effort to do now is make sure that we have rules that will apply also to legitimate social media groups and I really hope next time something like this happen we will have rules to follow.
Although when I was called a douchebag, in game, i was the one reprimanded....i have brought forward evidence of being continuously harassed in the past, and not a single thing was done then, or now.
This will be my last visit to the forum, or to have anything to do with the bm public at large. If I do receive further harassment, I shall report it, but I will not hold my breath that anything will actually be done on my behalf. I will likely deal with it in my own fashion, which is apparently: quite venomous.
Gratitude for showing me the clear breaks in this 'justice' system. Do not expect to hear much from me in the future, unless it is on Beluaterra.
Although when I was called a douchebag, in game, i was the one reprimanded....i have brought forward evidence of being continuously harassed in the past, and not a single thing was done then, or now.
Although when I was called a douchebag, in game, i was the one reprimanded....i have brought forward evidence of being continuously harassed in the past, and not a single thing was done then, or now.
This will be my last visit to the forum, or to have anything to do with the bm public at large. If I do receive further harassment, I shall report it, but I will not hold my breath that anything will actually be done on my behalf. I will likely deal with it in my own fashion, which is apparently: quite venomous.
Gratitude for showing me the clear breaks in this 'justice' system. Do not expect to hear much from me in the future, unless it is on Beluaterra.
I don't disagree with you Lavigna. I understand that there may have been harassment against Kyle. But what can be done? While I trust you and Anaris completely, where is the evidence of who harassed him? Who did it? Where are the messages? Everyone involved has either refused to provide any evidence, said that they have no evidence to give, and refused to name any names. The Magistrates asked many times for evidence to support harassment claims against Kyle, none was provided.That makes no sense. We know there is a problem, but we can't find evidence so we will just act like it is not happening. Some of you have very strange views on justice, IMO.
That makes no sense. We know there is a problem, but we can't find evidence so we will just act like it is not happening. Some of you have very strange views on justice, IMO.
That makes no sense. We know there is a problem, but we can't find evidence so we will just act like it is not happening. Some of you have very strange views on justice, IMO.
That makes no sense. We know there is a problem, but we can't find evidence so we will just act like it is not happening. Some of you have very strange views on justice, IMO.
Would you blame the police for not doing anything about you being mugged if you never called them to report what happened?
Both of these are not analogies that fit to this. This a judge convicting you of assault even though they know it was self-defense according to several witnesses with the judge's response being simply, "You didn't give us evidence on precisely how and who all attacked you so we will ignore the fact altogether."
Knowing that "something" is happening, and knowing "exactly" what is happening, are not the same thing. How would you feel if the police threw you in jail for three days, simply because they "knew you were up to no good"? The Magistrates are basically a jury, and they can only rule based on the evidence they have. Otherwise, it's just a tyranny of opinion. That's not justice.
Both of these are not analogies that fit to this. This a judge convicting you of assault even though they know it was self-defense according to several witnesses with the judge's response being simply, "You didn't give us evidence on precisely how and who all attacked you so we will ignore the fact altogether."
Either you actually make it your goal to find the rest of those that should be punished for this case or you deal both parties equally.The Magistrates tried to find out who the other party was, but no one spoke up, provided messages, or named names. So what were they supposed to do?
I asked an appeal on two cases.Why was that first case never finished? I went back and looked, and can't see any reason why it wasn't. I mean, everyone involved was being a total ass, but that's no reason not to follow through and make a ruling. It would be pointless now, as the Ilyrians family that the case was filed against was locked quite some time ago.
How come no one wants to judge upon the first case where Kyle was the complainer?
Also i want the complainer against Kyle to explain what did he mean when he said the following:
"Karel Scherpereel
Holy !@#$, what's with the defensive attitude all the time. Give it a rest. Or QQ"
You said you didn't know who Woelfy is yet here you re asking him what's up with the defensive attitude - all the time- . All the time?
There is a blur here. And also you clearly see that someone is frustrated, you answer with QQ and then you repeat QQ.
QQ is a form of mockery.Sometimes such mockeries are worse than a vulgar insult.
Looking at the other Magistrates here; am I supposed to answer this? I don't think it's proper to drench up a closed case, certainly if you chose to abstain, Lavigna, and after a verdict has been reached.
Somehow I feel you still think I provoked Kyle other than those two messages on facebook. I already admitted they were inappropriate and explained I didn't consider QQ quite as offensive as others might, and I apologised. I'll readily admit following up with another QQ wasn't exactly grand of me either.
However you must realise that I had bitten my tongue two times before, when Kyle chose not to, and that this time I just didn't. Because these two incidents were long past (over 30 days) and without record, I didn't bring them up because they would be no more than defamation without grounds; equal to what I have been facing throughout this topic (mostly from you).
It appears you sympathise more with Kyle's case than I would expect from an (impartial?) magistrate.
In any case, I consider this case closed, as I believe all other parties involved do (including Kyle). I doubt I'll honour further requests for bits of information if the only reason you want them is to see me guilty, and really believe this whole debacle has wasted more than enough time for anyone involved (including Kyle).
I have every right to ask for an appeal on a decision i consider wrong and in fact every player should do the same.
Why was that first case never finished? I went back and looked, and can't see any reason why it wasn't. I mean, everyone involved was being a total ass, but that's no reason not to follow through and make a ruling. It would be pointless now, as the Ilyrians family that the case was filed against was locked quite some time ago.
I don't sympathize with Kyle, i know he was harassed.I asked to abstain because i would vote not guilty without second thought.That makes me impartial concerning the voting, but now i complain against two wrong decisions.
I don't know you but you make it difficult for me to understand when you complain but state you don't want him punished, the fact you say you didn't know him , then you realized you knew too much about him..it is so blury to me.
I have every right to ask for an appeal on a decision i consider wrong and in fact every player should do the same.
Apart the fact we shouldn't rule on matters brought up from Facebook when there were no rules.All i saw in that post was other players agreeing with him and answering back civilized , you throwing a QQ to him and then the counter attack.
Two points i want you to comment:
1)Quote:"Secondly, to provide documentation on the issue. For all I know (and now I do, from those other cases), Kyle has been harrassing other players. I can't say I am deeply traumatised by his attempt at insulting me, but others might have been. Perhaps recently joined players have already left because of him, something that can only be bad for BM as a whole."
You know what from other cases?Vellos posted 3 cases that had to do with harass,two of them were not connected to Kyle and the third that actually was , he was the c-o-m-p-l-a-i-n-e-r.And all that led you to the fact Kyle harasses other players?
Explain your logic on this.
2) Quote: "When I reacted on facebook I didn't even realise Kyle was Guile's player, it was only afterwards (when Skarxion added 'Jaeger sucks', and when I got Kyle's message)"
wait a second because earlier you said....
quote:"I just ignored the Guile family altogether. Also because I figured I might be the only one annoyed by these roleplays, and I didn't consider it my place to spoil others' fun any further. It was only after Kyle started a rather lame argument on facebook with no real content that I reacted again, admittedly not in the best way. However, I didn't just reply with QQ, as I was genuinly interested in what his big problem was."
Odd much?
Did you or didn't you know who he was?
I would have thought the appeal should come from the player himself rather than from a third party.
I replied to your previous post out of courtesy, but honestly I don't intend to waste any more time on this; I won't even read your wall of text. Unless other magistrates believe I should, of course, or if Kyle himself asks for clarification.
You don't convince me.At all.
Infact these are questions you should have answered before any decision was taken.
Waiting for other Magistrates to tell you if you should answer?Now that's mature.
I asked two questions, i didn't send the Spanish Inquisition after you.The least you can do after filling a questionable complain is to support it.
Do learn that just one decision is not enough to end a case. Decisions are not golden rules, they can always change and in this particular case, should change.
You fail to understand what abstain means.
I abstained because since i know first hand the ooc harass this player has received so my decision would be biased.Even after stating i abstained i still supported my opinion , abstaining to a voting does not mean silencing yourself.
I do believe there is something weird about your complain and the fact you twisted your own words on multiple occasions.
I believe these decisions are wrong and i am trying to fix that before a wrong decision becomes a pattern for others to use and take advantage of.
There is no appeal. If you think the decision was totally wrong, you can try to mail tom@battlemaster.org - but your chances aren't very good. Unless the decision is obviously faulty, I will stand behind my Magistrates.There is no appeal. If you think a case was handled improperly, the you have one, and only one, course of action: Email Tom. There is no appeals process. There is no reopening of old cases.
You can, and in fact are encouraged to, bring cases even if you are not affected. If you see someone violating the right of another player, do speak up on behalf of that other player. He may not dare to or know how.Anyone can bring up a case, even if they are not the perpetrator or the victim. If Lavigna sees that something is wrong, even if she is not involved directly, she can bring it to the Magistrates.
A verdict has been reached, and IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict is:
"On the question of jurisdiction, the Magistrates reiterate the opinion expressed in the "Accusations of cheating on the forum" case, which states: "The Magistrates hold that they have jurisdiction in cases arising from the forum, provided that three conditions hold: first, that a connection between a forum account and a user ID exists; second, that forum moderators have already attempted to redress the issue by comment deletion or thread control as necessary; third, that such means have failed to resolve or end the dispute, and it is of such a nature as to arouse general concern or interest." The Magistrates further assert that these three criteria hold for essentially any directly BM-related, BM-originating case between BM players which is brought before them. While we do not intend (and lack any ability) to regularly monitor non-Battlemaster means of communications between players, we hold that if an issue is serious enough that the players involved bring it before us, we may rule on it provided we find that there is a compelling interest to do so.
"The Magistrates also assert that as this case is within their jurisdiction and has been brought before them, there is a compelling interest to rule on it, as the nature of the incident is both striking for the degree of hostility evinced and unprecedented as to the involvement of Social Media beyond the confines of the game or forum. Our hope is to set a precedent regarding player to player interactions that may be used as a guide by players moving forward. To put it simply, please be civil in your interactions with other players regardless of the medium. The Social Contract specifies a minimum standard of behavior toward your fellow players. It is our consensus that this standard should not be narrowly applied only to interactions within the game, but be treated as a general guideline for all interactions with other players of the game that concern the game itself.
"The Magistrates find the accused guilty of violating the Social Contract, which states:
"No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players. Err on the side of caution, especially if you don't know the other player well."
The message provided as evidence is clearly a verbal attack and insult. It is also highly venomous in nature, to a degree that is both striking and unusual when it comes to interactions between players. It is the consensus of the Magistrates that there is no place for such attacks in the Battlemaster community. Any provocation that could reasonably justify such a hostile response is likely to be itself a violation of the Social Contract and should be brought before us if the players involved cannot settle their differences in a civil fashion. Ultimately, one of the primary functions of both the Social Contract and the Magistrates is to promote a friendly atmosphere in the game and set minimum standards of behavior for the community to follow. We would therefore be remiss if we did not state clearly and unequivocally that vicious personal attacks directed at other players are not acceptable behavior. As this appears to be a one-time incident, the accused will be given a warning, and it is our hope that he will more carefully consider how he interacts with other players in the future."
Magistrates voted 5-1-1 (with Lavigna abstaining) for a guilty verdict with a warning.
This thread will remain open for any questions regarding the case.