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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Woelfy on April 29, 2013, 09:20:00 PM
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Am i to report every email, ooc message, forum letter, and facebook message i have gotten from people that uses foul and aggressive language towards me, based on my characters actions?
This is some serious bull!@#$.
My increasing vitriol and rage is at the sheer amount of external inundations I have received over BM, a game I chose to play for fun. Not a job. Not something I need to be censored for, outside of it's proper channels.
Everyone seems to think I am foul tempered, and they are correct. The last 6 months of sheer OOC bull!@#$ that I have received over IG actions has made me bitter, and left an extremely foul taste in my mouth. In 9 years of playing BM, I have never encountered this, and never thought it possible.
I have been apologetic to the people that I actually wronged, but I will not reconcile with people who harass me in social media over a !@#$ing game.
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Am i to report every email, ooc message, forum letter, and facebook message i have gotten from people that uses foul and aggressive language towards me, based on my characters actions?
If you are being legitimately harassed by other players, then yes, you should report it. Or flat out ignore it.
What you should not do is respond in kind. You can think of it as refusing to feed the trolls, if that's what it takes. But by responding to flames and assaults with more flames and assaults, all you are doing is escalating the conflict. And I can't help but think that you are perfectly aware of this.
My increasing vitriol and rage is at the sheer amount of external inundations I have received over BM, a game I chose to play for fun. Not a job. Not something I need to be censored for, outside of it's proper channels.
Every avenue of communication available to you with other players has some kind of Ignore feature/button/option. I suggest you learn how to use it.
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Getting flame letters has become so constant that I no longer even use the email account associated with my game account.
Reporting it, when it is something so childish, seems a waste of the magistrates time. I have blocked the people I get the letters from, but that doesnt stop them from sending more from other accounts.
It may not help to feed in, but at this point, it is a miracle that i am not swearing every other word. I am livid, and am tired of constantly biting my tongue.
Anyone who is forced to bite their tongue will inevitably lash out with more force when they finally do.
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You know what? Reporting to the Magistrates has happened now.
If you want to be judged based on the entire context, rather than purely what the Magistrates can see right now, then show the context.
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Getting flame letters has become so constant that I no longer even use the email account associated with my game account.
Reporting it, when it is something so childish, seems a waste of the magistrates time. I have blocked the people I get the letters from, but that doesnt stop them from sending more from other accounts.
It may not help to feed in, but at this point, it is a miracle that i am not swearing every other word. I am livid, and am tired of constantly biting my tongue.
Anyone who is forced to bite their tongue will inevitably lash out with more force when they finally do.
If you are the focus of an ongoing campaign of OOC harassment, then please report it. If everything you are saying is true, then it is by no means a waste of our time; it's something very bad, and it needs to be stopped immediately.
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I just wanted to chime in here with what I think is useful testimony. I don't have material evidence - I never bothered to store it - but I do have my experience of what I have witnessed in regards to this case and in particular allegations made against Kyle.
For the last several months I have seen what could be tantamount to a driven, deliberate, and vindictive OOC campaign against Kyle. I would prefer to abstain from mentioning names or pointing fingers, but certainly the messages and behavior I have seen from certain players in Swordfell - on both the forum and in the game - seem startling in their directed intent against Kyle.
Kyle and I are well acquainted, but rather than this coloring my opinion, it has allowed me access to his side of the story and to long discussions of these OOC infractions.
I genuinely believe that there has been a trend of making Kyle out to be the bad guy OOC, to discredit him, to utilize methods outside of the game to provoke reactions. I see no other logical recourse for, say, the things Bowie has done. Or for this.
Did Kyle lash out? Yes - on Facebook. Outside of the purview of the game. I believe he reached a breaking point - understandably so. In this case in particular, I feel as though both sides had disproportionate reactions - particularly as I do not believe the Jaeger roleplays to be hurting anyone or written in anything less than a spirit of fun.
I have seen players make remarks towards Kyle and his character that would deeply offend anyone and I think it is a real shame that part of our community has made one of our players feel isolated, targeted, and angry.
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For the last several months I have seen what could be tantamount to a driven, deliberate, and vindictive OOC campaign against Kyle. I would prefer to abstain from mentioning names or pointing fingers, but certainly the messages and behavior I have seen from certain players in Swordfell - on both the forum and in the game - seem startling in their directed intent against Kyle.
I have witnessed that myself as well and something i did say back to another complain for Swordfell that realm was full of crap (i apologize for using crap, but it was).
The OOC flames were on ALL sides, i found it laughable when the only side that ended up here was actually Kyle.
I played there for almost 5 months, people there didn't like his in game actions, flames ooc were actually on a daily basis in the beginning.
So Swordfell, don't even go there because seriously i could talk for hours about what is wrong in that realm and there is a lot.
I did read everything people comment here. I myself wouldn t like to let someone unpunished allowing him to repeat such behaviour but i INSIST when i say that punish someone over a post in facebook or even using it in order to punish previous actions that almost passed unpunished is wrong.
There is no new evidence to support reconsidering our previous judgements on the matter, if you consider this such then i am sorry you will find me on the other side.
Bring a matter to the magistrates KNOWING is not worth for punishment only in order to bring the person here to be judged all over again for previous matters and letters that NO ONE has at hand to show off is not enough for me.
OOC harassement is something that MUST be reported right away so the Magistrates can judge on it. Either that takes place in game or in the forum.
That also counts for you Woelfy, if you really have such letters to show ,as you claim ,do bring them here right now or stop mentioning them.
I will agree with something Geronus said though.Do consider this as a warning , your name pops up a lot here, that means that either you are fighting a war alone or you piss off a lot of people and actually harass them OOC.
This doesn't seem normal either but as the case stands so far it is still not enough (for me at least) to force a punishment.
Also for the BM group. Maybe some of you don't feel it needs to get clear but i do. Do make clear if it is considered an extension of the game and it's rules, if yoy don' t care fine but i want to know.
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Kyle has been told in a very spectacular way, a Titan message, that OOC insults will not be tolerated. His vitriolic comment is not in isolation but is rather part of a long and growing pattern of bitterness and anger at other players which is now spilling over into increasingly more and more public areas. Kyle is totally unapologetic in virtually every instance. He has not, AFAIK (please correct me if I'm wrong), shown any interest or ability to reconcile with players he dislikes.
I m sorry but when that OOC warning should have counted for all Swordfell not just Kyle. He was receiving vitriol himself back then and i can state that because i witnessed some of the ooc harass-msgs .
I insist and will repeat it till the end. That realm was full of crap, i will repeat it as much as i have to.
In that particular case he was also harassed if no one noticed , in fact he is the complainer.
Do we really want to look into that complain? His complain was even called childish but suddenly this one is not?
And i repeat Swordfell is not worth mentioning here.Read my comment in that thread as well, that realm should have received a bomb back then or renamed to Swordfail.
This is one sided in so many levels.
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I can testify that one of the early things Kyle did when he began receiving this absurd OOC harassment was to vent to me on IRC—which I had no problem with; I'm a veteran ventee.
I was frustrated that there didn't seem much that could be done about it, particularly because, at that point (gotta be at least a couple months ago now—right back around the foundation of Swordfell), while it was seriously aggravating, I didn't think it had risen to the level at which it was appropriate for Titans or Magistrates to get involved.
But it's been much more frustrating to see him get reported multiple times for the much rarer occasions when he strikes back, while it seemed clear to me, at least, that the worse offenders were those needling him constantly.
This strikes me as being very much like the classic playground game of "see how far we can taunt the weird kid until he hits one of us and gets sent to detention, while we all get off scott-free, sniggering behind our hands."
I will grant, for the sake of full disclosure, that I do not have the whole story, and have most of it only secondhand through Kyle himself, but given that it's been corroborated by multiple people here, I honestly don't see any reason to suppose that what I have heard is not representative of the whole story.
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I feel Thalmarkin has become a breeding ground for poor RP, poor manners and a generally poor OOC attitude for a small number of players, though mainly from the Guile family. My main issue was with stuff I can't consider BM-appropriate, such as a Grand Wizard shooting fireballs, moving an Ice Tower with telekinesis and sexual innuendo ("I'll give her a pearl necklace").
You know this is perfectly ok since there are scrolls to support what he does right? He is APPOINTED as a Grand Wizard not a self proclaimed one, there are fireball scrolls and of course there never was a telekinesis of an Ice Tower. Also the sexual innuendo about the pearl necklace was not from Kyle.
Please next time get your facts straight.
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I can testify that one of the early things Kyle did when he began receiving this absurd OOC harassment was to vent to me on IRC—which I had no problem with; I'm a veteran ventee.
I was frustrated that there didn't seem much that could be done about it, particularly because, at that point (gotta be at least a couple months ago now—right back around the foundation of Swordfell), while it was seriously aggravating, I didn't think it had risen to the level at which it was appropriate for Titans or Magistrates to get involved.
But it's been much more frustrating to see him get reported multiple times for the much rarer occasions when he strikes back, while it seemed clear to me, at least, that the worse offenders were those needling him constantly.
This strikes me as being very much like the classic playground game of "see how far we can taunt the weird kid until he hits one of us and gets sent to detention, while we all get off scott-free, sniggering behind our hands."
I will grant, for the sake of full disclosure, that I do not have the whole story, and have most of it only secondhand through Kyle himself, but given that it's been corroborated by multiple people here, I honestly don't see any reason to suppose that what I have heard is not representative of the whole story.
Anaris, I have always respected you, as a player in BM as well as part of the community. From your words, and those of others, I mean to gather that Kyle is not the real one to blame here. Though I still consider his messages to me to be inappropriate, I'm glad to have heard some context from his side of the story.
Kyle, if you believe I am part of some OOC scheme against you, I can assure you this is untrue. I have no information whatsoever on what is happening in Swordfell. I considered some of the rp you created to be unsuitable for BM, and I let you know - and I don't think I did so in an impolite way. If you are being harrassed continually I can understand you lashed out at me, though I cannot consider that an excuse either.
For the sake of all that is good in BM, let us leave this behind us. If you continue to be annoyed by other players, please step forward and make a public complaint. The kind of atmosphere this bickering creates is bad for all parties involved.
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But it's been much more frustrating to see him get reported multiple times for the much rarer occasions when he strikes back, while it seemed clear to me, at least, that the worse offenders were those needling him constantly.
Since we haven't been supplied with any evidence regarding what other people are doing, I only know what I've seen, which I haven't much cared for. There's really no excuse for getting that nasty with another player. Just because the other party may also be at fault doesn't absolve someone of taking responsibility for their own behavior.
This case will be dealt with on its own merits. If there is indeed an ongoing campaign of harassment against Kyle, he can (and absolutely should) report it, and we will deal with that case separately. Let me be clear though that so far as I can tell, there's no reason for that hypothetical case to have any bearing on this one. It doesn't change what happened, and it doesn't excuse anything. No player should be subject to harassment by other players, but that doesn't make responding in kind somehow OK.
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Per the rules, I have removed a few offtopic posts. (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html)
Kyle:
Please file a report against the players that are harassing you. I will move any evidence posted in this thread to that Magistrate case.
If you want to provide emails as evidence--and I think it's pretty clear that sending insults OOC to a personal email account is against the social contract--I can help you post those. Send me a PM if you like.
I think this has gotten to the point where Tom should look at the message logs of everyone in Swordfell. Some 14-day account locks may help cool things off. Yes, Kyle may be deserving of one of those locks.
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Kyle deleted his dwilight character earlier today.
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Kyle deleted his dwilight character earlier today.
Woelfy did delete his Swordfell character, but I didn't find any explanation until I checked the forums. It would have been nice to have an RP explanation to those in Swordfell, as I think most of us took it as griefing. I tried to run with the 'Sevastian died of lung infection" that I found in the Luria thread, but am curious how many people received that IC. I would be more curious as to the OOC reason he deleted a fairly good character.
This strikes me as being very much like the classic playground game of "see how far we can taunt the weird kid until he hits one of us and gets sent to detention, while we all get off scott-free, sniggering behind our hands."
From what I saw of the interaction between Ironsides and Woelfy, this seems to be close. Ironsides has a kind of goading and mercurial nature to him (which is evident in Bowie), while Woelfy has a serious and aggressive nature (evident in Sevastian). Those two will never get along. They are both great players, but they seem to feed off of each others personality in a bad way.
I think this has gotten to the point where Tom should look at the message logs of everyone in Swordfell. Some 14-day account locks may help cool things off. Yes, Kyle may be deserving of one of those locks.
I'm not sure if the message logs of the 11 remaining characters in Swordfell would yield much OOC harrassment, but you never know. After the Titan warning, I've not seen any OOC chatter. This sounds more like it's about 3rd party OOC chatter, facebook/email/forum/etc. It might be worth looking at Sevastian's message log (if it shows incoming/outgoing), but even then I think Tom has more on his plate than managing arbitrary disputes.
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Per the rules, I have removed a few offtopic posts. (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html)
Kyle:
Please file a report against the players that are harassing you. I will move any evidence posted in this thread to that Magistrate case.
If you want to provide emails as evidence--and I think it's pretty clear that sending insults OOC to a personal email account is against the social contract--I can help you post those. Send me a PM if you like.
I think this has gotten to the point where Tom should look at the message logs of everyone in Swordfell. Some 14-day account locks may help cool things off. Yes, Kyle may be deserving of one of those locks.
This.
Because as best I can tell, Kyle is breaking the social contract pretty regularly.
BUT, it seems possible to me he's not alone: he just doesn't report.
He needs to report. Because guess what? The weird kid on the playground being taunted still hit a kid. That's still not okay. Growing up, I kinda was the kid getting taunted: you still don't have license to lash out. Yes, the taunters and goaders need to be punished too. Like I said in an earlier case relating to Kyle, "A plague on both your houses."
We have evidence here relating to one player. We can rule on that one player. If Tom wants to hit a larger group of players with a punishment, he can. Or if Kyle would like to open a case against a group of individuals, he can. And I'm happy to rule on those cases on the same standards.
But let's be clear: two wrongs don't make a right. It may be that Kyle was provoked. That matters literally not at all for his individual case. Now, it gives us a good idea that probably there's a bigger issue with a group of players we need to look into: so Kyle, name names. Provide e-mails: you can do it privately if you prefer.
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I suggest we drop this and move on.
So far i 've seen more people supporting Kyle for receiving his part of harass and the player who made the report stated himself he is not expecting or asking a punishment, which means he acts like adult versus adult.
Let's not make this a witch hunting.They are two grown ups and one of them acted hot headed.
I believe Kyle chose the worst of punishments by deleting his character (which was the char that actually ends up in trouble all the time).
And i do not mean that turns wrong into right but the worst punishment that Magistrates could suggest would be a 3 day lock.Well he locked him once and for all.
I am not saying that each player that gets accused by someone should delete his char and expect the case to be closed.But in this particular case Kyle deleted a char people didn't like in game.He was faithful to his game play and rp which was annoying for some.
When an in game hatred of this level occures among characters it's only a matter of time to end up ooc.Getting forced to delete a char because ppl don't like him to an ooc level is a harass itself.
What i mean is that obviously both sides are wrong, so far this case was an opportunity for all those that were "harassed continuously" in the past by this person to add their story here, i saw none.On the contrary i saw people stating that Kyle was harassed himself even if that doesn't justify him striking back.
What i suggest is to drop it and move on.But to also state that the next time we receive a case like this, involving the same bunch of people , we will punish hard( and personaly i won't even ask evidence).
Also i wish to use this case and try to explain exactly what ooc harass against a player means.Which are the boundaries here and at what length do we expand it's ruling.
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Yeah, people are harassing each other because of IG events, let's drop it and move on.
No. This is the job of the Magistrates. And maybe if we lock Kyle he'll get the point that he should probably report it if he's being harassed because we take this stuff seriously. Because until he reports it, it's unsubstantiated rumor smearing other players.
We weren't able to rule on the last incident where Kyle complained because the Titans stepped in. We shouldn't just keep continually abdicating our role because it's a complicated situation.
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No. This is the job of the Magistrates. And maybe if we lock Kyle he'll get the point that he should probably report it if he's being harassed because we take this stuff seriously. Because until he reports it, it's unsubstantiated rumor smearing other players.
I'd hardly say it's unsubstantiated when multiple people including a dev corroborate the reports.
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I'd hardly say it's unsubstantiated when multiple people including a dev corroborate the reports.
Like I said, unsubstantiated.
You could probably say, "I saw a pig fly" on this forum and find a couple people to defend your position.
Quotes of harassing messages, e-mails, whatever: report it. He did report one case earlier and we didn't rule, which, IMHO, was a big mistake. Because the Titan ruling didn't rule for one side or another, and didn't really address the case at hand. We should rule this time.
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Like I said, unsubstantiated.
You could probably say, "I saw a pig fly" on this forum and find a couple people to defend your position.
Right. Because getting a former Titan and a current Dev to corroborate reports of harassment is totally the same thing as finding some random nutjobs to agree that a pig might have flown.
I take umbrage at your insinuations of my own untrustworthiness, Vellos.
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So you want to punish a person that his harass report wen un punished in order to learn what lesson? That when he is the complainer people drop the case while when he is the accused he receives punishment?
I really don't understand your logic.
We ask him to bring evidence but when he did we din't even punished properly. How fair.
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So you want to punish a person that his harass report wen un punished in order to learn what lesson? That when he is the complainer people drop the case while when he is the accused he receives punishment?
I really don't understand your logic.
We ask him to bring evidence but when he did we din't even punished properly. How fair.
I was opposed to the early involvement of the Titans as well. No, it's not fair the way things have worked out. I expect there's probably a solid half dozen harassment cases or so that need to be brought up and worked out. But past errors should not be used to prevent the Magistrates from doing what they should do now: which is rule on the darn case.
Right. Because getting a former Titan and a current Dev to corroborate reports of harassment is totally the same thing as finding some random nutjobs to agree that a pig might have flown.
I take umbrage at your insinuations of my own untrustworthiness, Vellos.
No Tim, I don't think you're lying or untrustworthy. I think that the whole point of the Magistrates vs. the Titans is to actually have things out in a fairly public and transparent fashion that players can rely on to produce reasonable, understandable results. If every time we get a harassment case we apply special standards and have different, atypical process where we drop some, use Titans for others, etc, etc, that defeats the whole point. We'd be better off just having harassment cases go straight to the Titans.
We need to rule on the evidence we have. If it is incomplete, that is the fault of the two parties involved. If Kyle has been the subject of far worse, then it should be a simple matter for him to open a case, and maybe this time the Titans won't shut down the process.
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I suggest we drop this and move on.
So far i've seen more people supporting Kyle for receiving his part of harass and the player who made the report stated himself he is not expecting or asking a punishment, which means he acts like adult versus adult.
From what I've seen this isn't the case, it is rather equal regarding who supports him and who doesn't, the difference being that the people who do support Kyle haven't brought up any actual evidence, instead serving as "character" witnesses. If there's one thing we should know about humans, its that character witnesses are inherently biased. It's why all the time in the media if someone commits a crime people close to said person many times say "I never would have expected him/her to do something like this."
In that regard, we could have the entire forum for all I care speaking up for Kyle's character. That isn't factual hard evidence, that's an opinion. A transcript of personal and public messages is hard evidence. Use that for your judgement, not what people claim to be true as their stated opinion.
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I should note that while I have spoken up on Kyle's behalf, I am entirely neutral on the subject of whether any punishment is warranted in this case.
I just think that if Kyle is punished, those who goaded him continually for the joy of seeing him lash out should be punished more severely.
And yes, I recognize that this means that Kyle must report them and provide evidence himself.
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I was opposed to the early involvement of the Titans as well. No, it's not fair the way things have worked out. I expect there's probably a solid half dozen harassment cases or so that need to be brought up and worked out. But past errors should not be used to prevent the Magistrates from doing what they should do now: which is rule on the darn case.
Past errors? I am sorry but you have a wrong idea of what Magistrates do. First they 're not punishers.It does not mean that we have to punish in order to consider the closure of the case succesfull.We must be impartial and act according to the rules.The rules here are questionable.
And consider decisions of Titans and Magistrates as past errors just because you consider them wrong, is also wrong.They are past judgements of those in charge to support the rules.Our decisions become rules.
It is of course common sense to know that react to harass with harass is wrong.But how does it feel when someone brings evidence people consider his report as not worthy of actual attention.
I remind you there is a case when he is the complainer.
There is previous evidence and it's there and it was considered weak and one of his RE-actions gets enough attention to turn him from victim to the aggresor.
You are right, i was the first to say that without actual proof you can't support your opinion. But i was an eye witness and to me that is much more than rules.
I am asking to be excluded from the voting.I am obviously biased because i know a part of a truth by being an eye witness which at the same time of course enforces my opinion and my opinion is "let this go " but the it go with some official and strong warning on the matter.
If we believe that we ve done wrong in the past by one of our decision maybe we should fix them and make sure it becomes golden rule.Wrong decisions of either Magistrates or Titans are not past errors, they are bad example by those who actually enforce the rules.
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As far as this case goes, the most relevant extenuating factors here would be evidence of an apology or some sense of remorse on the part of Kyle himself. Since those are notably lacking, I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for him at the moment. ... particularly since Shizzle has gone out of his way to extend an olive branch here.
Having spoken with Woelfy, I was aware of some of the OOC harassment he was receiving but I wasn't aware of the extent.
Woelfy is a very fair guy, but he's definitely not a live and let live. I fully agree with the way he has tried to defend himself, and tbh to see Shizzle suddenly apologetic the moment the teacher/professor/parents are involved reflects who he is. Woelfy isn't lashing out because he's a bad guy, it's because he's being pushed to the edge and right now I feel like some of the magistrates need to look less at the letter of the law and more at the spirit and the fact that this is supposed to be a game amongst friends.
To me, Woelfy is playing a game with friends. When people are being irritating he's trying to work it out instead of calling in mom and dad to fix everything. The people on the other side who are continually filing reports about him are not playing like friends, they're playing like socially deficient internet trolls who are trying to use the authority figures in the game to further their aims.
Dwilight has lost a very good, dynamic character and player because some people didn't like either. This sounds like the Dwilight I know so far, and I hate that that's true. There are deep reasons why Dwilight is growing stagnant, this is simply a manifestation of it.
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Having spoken with Woelfy, I was aware of some of the OOC harassment he was receiving but I wasn't aware of the extent.
Woelfy is a very fair guy, but he's definitely not a live and let live. I fully agree with the way he has tried to defend himself, and tbh to see Shizzle suddenly apologetic the moment the teacher/professor/parents are involved reflects who he is. Woelfy isn't lashing out because he's a bad guy, it's because he's being pushed to the edge and right now I feel like some of the magistrates need to look less at the letter of the law and more at the spirit and the fact that this is supposed to be a game amongst friends.
To me, Woelfy is playing a game with friends. When people are being irritating he's trying to work it out instead of calling in mom and dad to fix everything. The people on the other side who are continually filing reports about him are not playing like friends, they're playing like socially deficient internet trolls who are trying to use the authority figures in the game to further their aims.
Dwilight has lost a very good, dynamic character and player because some people didn't like either. This sounds like the Dwilight I know so far, and I hate that that's true. There are deep reasons why Dwilight is growing stagnant, this is simply a manifestation of it.
+1
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I feel like some of the magistrates need to look less at the letter of the law and more at the spirit and the fact that this is supposed to be a game amongst friends.
To me, Woelfy is playing a game with friends. When people are being irritating he's trying to work it out instead of calling in mom and dad to fix everything. The people on the other side who are continually filing reports about him are not playing like friends, they're playing like socially deficient internet trolls who are trying to use the authority figures in the game to further their aims.
This, I think, is the most important part of this post to take note of, and it has actually made me change my mind on the question of whether any punishment should be levied upon Woelfy/Kyle.
If the Magistrates treat the law like a straitjacket, being bound by the feeling that they must punish any perceived violation, then they are abdicating their responsibility to provide justice, and not merely punishment.
As has already been pointed out, Kyle has voluntarily taken the second-worst action that can ever be used as a punishment in BattleMaster: he has deleted his character. The only punishment we have that is worse than that is a permanent account lock. So aside from telling him, "Please don't do that again," what, exactly, do you think would be an appropriate punishment for Kyle at this point?
Justice requires more than an iron grasp of the law. It requires compassion, and the ability to see when someone is, despite what their immediate actions may be, a victim, for whom a punishment for their actions will simply serve to alienate them from the community and cause further stress—in other words, to amplify significantly the effects that those harassing him have already been having on him.
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It is in every Judge's , or Magistrates job to act with his own logic when a case doesn't belong to black or white,because rules are black and white.
When the case itself is questionable, the rules are loose at vital points concerning the case,there is lack of evidence by both sides in order to enforce their statements, then we are called to think out of the box as well.
This how law works and the product of the law is law itself.
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I fully agree with the way he has tried to defend himself, and tbh to see Shizzle suddenly apologetic the moment the teacher/professor/parents are involved reflects who he is.
This is both slanderous and untrue. In no way am I apologetic; I did nothing wrong.
And you even agree with the way he defended himself? You think it's acceptable to take a public discussion to a personal level, with the only intent to bully and insult someone into submission?
If Kyle, after all I wrote on here, or others, still think I am somehow part of this apparent OOC clique against him, they're either being stupid or malevolent.
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This, I think, is the most important part of this post to take note of, and it has actually made me change my mind on the question of whether any punishment should be levied upon Woelfy/Kyle.
If the Magistrates treat the law like a straitjacket, being bound by the feeling that they must punish any perceived violation, then they are abdicating their responsibility to provide justice, and not merely punishment.
As has already been pointed out, Kyle has voluntarily taken the second-worst action that can ever be used as a punishment in BattleMaster: he has deleted his character. The only punishment we have that is worse than that is a permanent account lock. So aside from telling him, "Please don't do that again," what, exactly, do you think would be an appropriate punishment for Kyle at this point?
Justice requires more than an iron grasp of the law. It requires compassion, and the ability to see when someone is, despite what their immediate actions may be, a victim, for whom a punishment for their actions will simply serve to alienate them from the community and cause further stress—in other words, to amplify significantly the effects that those harassing him have already been having on him.
Yeah, let's ignore the part of the rules about harassment and side with the offender and blame the victim. That's awesome. Then we can call it justice and be done.
Bologna. Again, it seems entirely possible that Kyle was harassed too. He should bring up a report. But right now, I hear a coach in Steubenville saying they were nice kids, good players, people whose lives we don't want to muck up with unpleasant experiences. What recompense should be given to Karel? "Sorry, the guy who harassed you has a lot of friends and did a rage quit, there just ain't anything to be done!"
So, again, Kyle: PLEASE report any incidents of harassment. And maybe this time we'll be able to do something about it instead of, like last time you reported, lumping you in the same action as the people you report.
But for now, for this case, we don't get the luxury of redefining the case along some nebulous grounds of each of our abstract ideas of justice. Magistrates should try and, you know, enforce the rules. And reacting to a mildly stated comment (again, just going from the evidence provided) with a string of profanities and personal insults is not playing with friends, and it has been a long time since I've seen any interaction between Kyle and any player which could be deemed as any kind of friendly.
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Yeah, let's ignore the part of the rules about harassment and side with the offender and blame the victim. That's awesome. Then we can call it justice and be done.
Right. That is exactly what you are doing.
Bologna. Again, it seems entirely possible that Kyle was harassed too. He should bring up a report. But right now, I hear a coach in Steubenville saying they were nice kids, good players, people whose lives we don't want to muck up with unpleasant experiences. What recompense should be given to Karel? "Sorry, the guy who harassed you has a lot of friends and did a rage quit, there just ain't anything to be done!"
No. What you hear is a bunch of people saying, "We know he was harassed. We saw some of it, he told us about more."
That's a very different thing that a bunch of people just saying, "He's such a nice guy! Why don't you just go easy on him?"
If you can't see that, then I seriously question your ability to tell useful evidence from useless.
Remember, Vellos, this isn't a US court of law. There's no chain of custody, and no rigorous standards of evidence. It is not anathema to take into account what one knows of the character of a given person, whether they be complainant, accused, or witness, in determining how to weigh their testimony.
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But for now, for this case, we don't get the luxury of redefining the case along some nebulous grounds of each of our abstract ideas of justice. Magistrates should try and, you know, enforce the rules. And reacting to a mildly stated comment (again, just going from the evidence provided) with a string of profanities and personal insults is not playing with friends, and it has been a long time since I've seen any interaction between Kyle and any player which could be deemed as any kind of friendly.
Your denial to connect this complain to his own complain some months ago is beyond weird to me.
This is no law enforcement.This is having the law screwing Kyle twice in order to give an example. I don't want to be part of this example.
There is so much more that this case requires than just evidence, mostly when evidence in the past was given and was ignored.
Let's not try to make right out of a wrong by committing wrong twice.
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It's been apparent from the Dwilight forums that some sort of needling has been going on amongst the players of Swordfell, who are unable to resolve their IC problems and have resorted to OOC means. Both the IC RPs and trolling on the forums were extremely distasteful, and I've got to agree that it looks like they were doing their best to get a rise out of Kyle. I don't agree he should be punished for that.
The response now cannot be that he didn't bring his complaints to the Magistrates, and therefore lacks any evidence to prove he was being harassed.
Magistrates should try and, you know, enforce the rules.
Sure, but that's no reason to ignore the spirit or intent of those rules. If magistrates were just meant to read the rulebook and throw it at the defendants, even a simple program might be able to do that. Judging on a case without looking at the background behind the incident, what the players involved have to say, and the observed character of the people involved would be a miscarriage of justice.
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Right. That is exactly what you are doing.
No. What you hear is a bunch of people saying, "We know he was harassed. We saw some of it, he told us about more."
That's a very different thing that a bunch of people just saying, "He's such a nice guy! Why don't you just go easy on him?"
If you can't see that, then I seriously question your ability to tell useful evidence from useless.
Remember, Vellos, this isn't a US court of law. There's no chain of custody, and no rigorous standards of evidence. It is not anathema to take into account what one knows of the character of a given person, whether they be complainant, accused, or witness, in determining how to weigh their testimony.
Well if you saw some of it, then show it. I don't care if you're a dev. Witnesses are also notoriously unreliable, as has been proven time and again by studies into witness testimony. Why should we trust someone who doesn't have any evidence besides saying "It didn't happen like that, I swear." If that's the step we took when someone is using multi abuse, we wouldn't have caught that player in Aurvandil (eventually).
This is getting ridiculous, if we start basing things in this manner, it'll become like astroempires. And trust me, that's the last thing you want. Seriously, this trial is starting to sound like a parade of excuses. First it was "We don't have the right to police outside of this site." Now it's becoming "Evidence doesn't matter."
It is in every Judge's , or Magistrates job to act with his own logic when a case doesn't belong to black or white,because rules are black and white.
When the case itself is questionable, the rules are loose at vital points concerning the case,there is lack of evidence by both sides in order to enforce their statements, then we are called to think out of the box as well.
This how law works and the product of the law is law itself.
Except, surprise, we do have evidence. Against Kyle. I'm sorry if you don't like that and think he's a great guy. Well that's just swell. Why don't we let someone else order people not to go to a tournament. I mean, he's such a good guy, he should be allowed to get away with it.
I'm sorry, but this is starting to go down the slippery slope that is denial.I should note that while I have spoken up on Kyle's behalf, I am entirely neutral on the subject of whether any punishment is warranted in this case.
I just think that if Kyle is punished, those who goaded him continually for the joy of seeing him lash out should be punished more severely.
And yes, I recognize that this means that Kyle must report them and provide evidence himself.
And whatever happened to this Anaris? You seem to be very hypocritical in your posts regarding being "neutral" in regards to whether punishment is warranted in this case. If you want to argue that he was harassed, well why don't you open, I don't know, a report against the people who did so. I'm sure that would be very helpful in showing that he was, in fact, harassed, rather than this being a group of people supporting someone by spitting in the face of evidence.
And so what if this isn't a court of actual law, it should still have actual standards regarding what is admissible and what is just the words of someone who has no proof. If we went about things like you wish them to be, I could just gather a group of my friends, create an incident, and have them support me with testimony about how the other side was doing worse stuff and I just responded. Oh, so many people are saying that I am not to blame, so I am most definitely innocent. See how much of a slippery slope that is? We've already set a precedent that whether or not someone is apologetic (which Kyle most definitely appears not to be) they still broke a rule, and breaking rules have consequences.
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It's been apparent from the Dwilight forums that some sort of needling has been going on amongst the players of Swordfell, who are unable to resolve their IC problems and have resorted to OOC means. Both the IC RPs and trolling on the forums were extremely distasteful, and I've got to agree that it looks like they were doing their best to get a rise out of Kyle. I don't agree he should be punished for that.
The response now cannot be that he didn't bring his complaints to the Magistrates, and therefore lacks any evidence to prove he was being harassed.
Sure, but that's no reason to ignore the spirit or intent of those rules. If magistrates were just meant to read the rulebook and throw it at the defendants, even a simple program might be able to do that. Judging on a case without looking at the background behind the incident, what the players involved have to say, and the observed character of the people involved would be a miscarriage of justice.
Based on what? I'm sorry, but I haven't seen anything beyond the original post that is evidence from Kyle's side. Other than that, the only actual hard evidence we've been getting is from Shizzle. Everyone else is making claims, but not doing anything to back it up other than saying "this is how it actually was, but I won't show you anything to prove it." I'm sure the Titans have some evidence to the contrary, and if they'd like to put it in, great. But until that day, we work with what we have and what we have points to Kyle as being extremely venomous to a fellow player.
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I have been reading this topic...
You guys want to permalock Woelfy? Or what you want from him?
I reallly dont understand what punishment he can still get which would be even close to be "fair" punishment for one angry OOC/OOG message?
-Jaune
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Personally I'm advocating for a warning, not a lock. No one has yet overtly pushed for a lock, and the plaintiff Shizzle has called for dismissing the case altogether.
My own judgment is that it's simply not OK to tell another player to go !@#$ themselves, and I want to make it clear that that is not OK. Hence why I am voting guilty with a warning. If that's the consensus, then that warning will be published here and the precedent will be set; that's all I personally am looking for out of this.
Edit: And I will add, if Woelfy had deigned to apologize I might even have been inclined to skip on the warning.
Same.
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You are not serious right? You are gonna rule a case about something said on a FB group WHICH IS NOT AN OFFICIAL BM GROUP WITH NO RULES? THIS IS A JOKE.
You are try harding to play lawyers and judges here in this case.
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You are not serious right? You are gonna rule a case about something said on a FB group WHICH IS NOT AN OFFICIAL BM GROUP WITH NO RULES? THIS IS A JOKE.
You are try harding to play lawyers and judges here in this case.
Actually that is not true. They want to rule on a private message on FB. Kyle did not publicly slander Karel, he stated his opinion in an angry manner.
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It was not in a PM. It was a public posting to the BM group.
Derp... nvm. The thread that started this whole mess was a public thread in the group, but the actual complaint was for a private message. Sorry for the confusion.
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It was not in a PM. It was a public posting to the BM group.
Really? That changes my opinion a bit.
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It was not in a PM. It was a public posting to the BM group.
Both. The message by Kyle that Karel released in the original complaint was private, but the context to it was public on the BM Facebook page.
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Both. The message by Kyle that Karel released in the original complaint was private, but the context to it was public on the BM Facebook page.
This is exact.
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You are not serious right? You are gonna rule a case about something said on a FB group WHICH IS NOT AN OFFICIAL BM GROUP WITH NO RULES? THIS IS A JOKE.
I'm not commenting on the case itself, but:
We have a long standing rule that anything not in-game or on the official forum is outside the scope of the Titans, Magistrates or even GMs. If someone was harrassed on Facebook, then Facebook is the authority to appeal to.
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I'm not commenting on the case itself, but:
We have a long standing rule that anything not in-game or on the official forum is outside the scope of the Titans, Magistrates or even GMs. If someone was harrassed on Facebook, then Facebook is the authority to appeal to.
I believe this is a policy that we both can and should reverse.
Just because a BattleMaster player takes their harassment of another BattleMaster player to email, IRC, or Facebook (or any other medium) doesn't mean they should be entirely exempt from responsibility for their actions. In particular, I believe it is both possible and appropriate to state officially that all interactions within the context of the Facebook group are subject to the Social Contract.
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I'm not commenting on the case itself, but:
We have a long standing rule that anything not in-game or on the official forum is outside the scope of the Titans, Magistrates or even GMs. If someone was harrassed on Facebook, then Facebook is the authority to appeal to.
Even if they harass the person for Battlemaster related actions? I'm sorry, but that seems like a good way of saying "Harass people all you like, just not in this specific place."
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Even if they harass the person for Battlemaster related actions? I'm sorry, but that seems like a good way of saying "Harass people all you like, just not in this specific place."
I completely agree with this.
Facebook may have authorities that one could go to and complain if one was being harassed there, but what of a sustained campaign of harassment from multiple people in multiple media? A nasty PM on Facebook, a string of rude emails, a few OOC messages in-game, PM spam on IRC...
If the one common thread in all this is a BM-playing victim and BM-playing perpetrators, then it is the authority of BM that should be brought to bear.
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I completely agree with this.
Facebook may have authorities that one could go to and complain if one was being harassed there, but what of a sustained campaign of harassment from multiple people in multiple media? A nasty PM on Facebook, a string of rude emails, a few OOC messages in-game, PM spam on IRC...
If the one common thread in all this is a BM-playing victim and BM-playing perpetrators, then it is the authority of BM that should be brought to bear.
I disagree. There have been cases over the years where players harass others via mail or irc. After being brought to Tom his answer was to deal with it oog. I don't think this should be changed. MAgistrates have a certain job. To deal with problems that arise inside BM. Not in any groups outside. Especially when that group on FB is not an official BM group neither there are rules on the group. If that changes in the future ok but in this case I say leave it as it is.
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So we're saying that harassing is ok, so long as it is in private? That makes sooo much sense.
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So we're saying that harassing is ok, so long as it is in private? That makes sooo much sense.
Punishing someone for something that happened in a group without specific rules is so much better. Right?
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Punishing someone for something that happened in a group without specific rules is so much better. Right?
Right. Because as long as there are no "specific rules," people have no idea that they shouldn't flame, harass, insult, or otherwise verbally abuse other people.
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Punishing someone for something that happened in a group without specific rules is so much better. Right?
IMNSHO, yes. Yes it is.
We, as a community, should stand up for ourselves, and our fellow players. We should not be subject to abuse from other players, especially in official or semi-official venues. Simply because a venue, which exists for the sole purpose of BattleMaster players to socialize with each other, doesn't have an official declaration that it follows the BattleMaster social contract, doesn't mean that people there are free to harass, abuse, haze, bully, etc. other players. When it is brought to our attention by one of our players is doing this to another of our players, we should address the situation. The fact that the behavior takes place on the other side of some imaginary line is irrelevant.
The rule is "don't harass other players" not "don't harass other players right in front of our faces".
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Yeah. But you seem to forget that what Kyle did was to express his disgust on the group about the whole situation of Dwilight. Then someone had to reply with QQ and stir things up. Kyle responded in private and still we don't know what the other side told to him before the incident (if that happened). If you rule this case out then everyone can come and make complaints for stupid reasons just because they have to do with BM.
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Yeah. But you seem to forget that what Kyle did was to express his disgust on the group about the whole situation of Dwilight. Then someone had to reply with QQ and stir things up. Kyle responded in private and still we don't know what the other side told to him before the incident (if that happened). If you rule this case out then everyone can come and make complaints for stupid reasons just because they have to do with BM.
I'm not trying to argue that Kyle should be punished for this, Skiarxon. As you may recall, I waxed eloquent on why he should not be punished further not long ago.
What I'm trying to argue is that the Magistrates do—or should—have jurisdiction over harassment that occurs outside of the game and forums.
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I am not commenting on the merit or specifics of this particular case. (But if there were extenuating circunstances/provocations, then Kyle needs to produce them.) That is something for the Magistrates to rule on, not me. (I'm not a Magistrate.) What I'm saying is that if one BattleMaster player is getting harassed by another BattleMaster player, they should bring it to our attention. We need to stick up for our players (who should, ideally, all be our friends in this small community) and not tolerate abuse and harassment.
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I have given evidence of being harassed outside of proper game channels before, and I ended up being the one reprimanded. Why on earth would i waste my time copying and pasting anything when it will just be turned around by the very same people harassing me, in order to punish me?
As I stated on the FB group, I am finished with all non-game venues of speech.
If I recieve one more harassing email or private message, on any social media website, I shall respond in kind.
I tried your 'system', and have found it lacking in justice and sense.
To Shizzle: if you are in fact not one of my continued assailants, then I do apologize for my private fb message.
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Yeah. But you seem to forget that what Kyle did was to express his disgust on the group about the whole situation of Dwilight. Then someone had to reply with QQ and stir things up. Kyle responded in private and still we don't know what the other side told to him before the incident (if that happened). If you rule this case out then everyone can come and make complaints for stupid reasons just because they have to do with BM.
http://i.imgur.com/OFHPnQQ.png
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To Shizzle: if you are in fact not one of my continued assailants, then I do apologize for my private fb message.
Excellent. I consider this whole thing over and done.
In the meantime I've also come to realise I was being to harsh concerning RP in Thalmarkin. Sure it's not to my liking, but non-canonical doesn't mean rubbish. My apologies - I'll see myself out fo Thalmarkin if I'm disturbed any further.
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I totally agree with you, Anaris and Indirik.
We need to have same respect everywhere and we need rules.
When this discussion started at FB I did not interfere because I was not sure I could/should and had no rules to refer.
Also, to be honest, I had no idea what QQ is so, all I did was to point it at IRC but I should had done it with more eloquence.
And Shizzle, I don't think that posting again the message that started all this will help at all, if you really apologize and accept his apologize as well.
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I have given evidence of being harassed outside of proper game channels before, and I ended up being the one reprimanded. Why on earth would i waste my time copying and pasting anything when it will just be turned around by the very same people harassing me, in order to punish me?
As I stated on the FB group, I am finished with all non-game venues of speech.
If I recieve one more harassing email or private message, on any social media website, I shall respond in kind.
I tried your 'system', and have found it lacking in justice and sense.
To Shizzle: if you are in fact not one of my continued assailants, then I do apologize for my private fb message.
I very much wish you would bring this to us. It's not cool that this is happening to you and whoever is behind it deserves to be punished. It's one thing to get into a scrap with another player in the game. It's quite another to escalate that conflict beyond the confines of the game and start harassing someone over email or via other means on an ongoing basis.
As far as the previous case goes, it was not clear in that thread exactly what was going on. The complaint brought up a single example, which was swiftly countered with some context. The overwhelming impression at that time was that both sides were being nasty and hurling insults within Swordfell, hence the result, that all parties were judged to be at fault and a warning was issued to the entire realm. That case didn't give any evidence of outside of the game shenanigans. It didn't accuse anyone of ongoing harassment, or a campaign of bullying. Those are serious matters and they deserve their own hearing.
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And Shizzle, I don't think that posting again the message that started all this will help at all, if you really apologize and accept his apologize as well.
I agree. The only reason I shared was to prove we had no previous conversations on Facebook, and to rebute the idea I somehow provoked Kyle's response (other than the not so elegant usage of 'QQ').
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It seems ridiculous that two letters can cause that much fury. Would an "FU" invoke the same rage?
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It seems ridiculous that two letters can cause that much fury. Would an "FU" invoke the same rage?
I doubt it. QQ is much more provocative than FU, imo.
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Indeed. "FU" has come to be seen as simply dismissive, more or less analogous with (though less polite than) "whatever, just leave me alone."
"QQ", on the other hand, can be incredibly condescending. Its meaning is generally read more as, "Awww, is da widdle baby gonna go cry? Over something that any real man should be able to take with a smile?"
Out of line most of the time, IMO.
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I guess this shows how much people really react differently, I would take FU as a much more personal insult with real anger behind it whereas in my experience QQ has generally just been used as a troll which is easier to ignore.
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I am not sure where to post so I will post here and avoid to disturb the original topic that started this offtopic thread.
If you take your time to read the previous case of Kyle/Woelfy were he was the complainer, and later read the actual case, it seems to me that both cases were judged with partiality by the magistrates and from the beginning not all evidences were brought to the case, like the complain Kyle did to the titans, that was relevant to the case, IMO.
On the first case (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3693.0.html) if I am not wrong, he is being accused of threaten to complain to the titans about the fact that he was being harassed to step down?
And I could not find a case or a verdict.
On the second case when I read (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3863.0.html) one magistrate saying it is a "mommy, mommy call", I stopped reading there and only today I read all of it and could not find the verdict.
On the third case (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4205.0.html) a case from outside the forum, with no rules for it, have a case, have a verdict, not using the old evidences from old cases what was done in the previous cases.
On the other case sent to the titans we don't know nothing except his complains were not being taking in account and it seems Woelfy lost trust on the titans after this and that's why he did not defend himself.
I suggest you, magistrates try to read it all again, and try to do it as it was the first time and as it was written by a third person. Kyle act like a jerk (his words) but even a jerk have rights and need to be defended.
Maybe I can be doing a mistake, maybe I can not understand all of it as English is not my primary language but, from my point of view, these 3 cases are a big mess of ooc and bias from everyone but are cases that can be useful to change the rules or to set up a precedent. The way it is now, it would make a bad precedent though.
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I have no idea what happened to that first case.
For the second, it seems to me like the Magistrates dropped the ball on that one. Kyle is stating he was harassed and insulted by another player. After the Titans warned the entire realm to cut back on the OOC messages overall, the Magistrates decided to just forego ruling on the case, and dropped it. Personally, I don't see how the Titan's warning about too many OOC messages had done anything to act on the insult reported.
On the other case sent to the titans we don't know nothing except his complains were not being taking in account and it seems Woelfy lost trust on the titans after this and that's why he did not defend himself.
Which case are you referring to?
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The one Kyle only said he complain but we don't know anything about it. It seems to be it is somehow the origin of Kyle's distrust on all system so he practically give up on defending himself.
I don't think he is right, as many said, two wrongs don't make one right, but I don't think he deserve to be always treated as he is guilty forehand.
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I don't think he is right, as many said, two wrongs don't make one right, but I don't think he deserve to be always treated as he is guilty forehand.
He isn't. He was involved in yet another case earlier involving an alleged realm merger, and he and the others involved were cleared of wrong doing then. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.0.html)
I understand that some people feel bad for Kyle, but I haven't yet heard any arguments or seen any evidence that really makes me reconsider my position on this case. Why should we in effect rule that it is OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself?
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He isn't. He was involved in yet another case earlier involving an alleged realm merger, and he and the others involved were cleared of wrong doing then. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3396.0.html)
I understand that some people feel bad for Kyle, but I haven't yet heard any arguments or seen any evidence that really makes me reconsider my position on this case. Why should we in effect rule that it is OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself?
Why should you rule that if somebody is harassed successfully as the point of most bullies/harassers is to get a rise out of the other person, they get punished? My personal opinion is that the case should have ended without a verdict like previous cases where both parties were satisfied. Basically my preference is for the verdict to be revoked without their being one at all. Woelfy thought Sky was one of his harassers and overreacted due to his harassment, Sky understood that later on and clarified, Woelfy apologized, Sky accepted it, then the Magistrates said !@#$ precedent we are doing a verdict anyways.
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+1
Or this, or analyse all cases again. I still think all magistrates involved should read all again, trying to see it from another perspective. Not saying this to defend Kyle but to be sure when this happen again everyone will be more prepared.
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Why should you rule that if somebody is harassed successfully as the point of most bullies/harassers is to get a rise out of the other person, they get punished?
That depends on whether you think Shizzle was bullying Woelfy to get a rise out of him. I do not.
My personal opinion is that the case should have ended without a verdict like previous cases where both parties were satisfied. Basically my preference is for the verdict to be revoked without their being one at all. Woelfy thought Sky was one of his harassers and overreacted due to his harassment, Sky understood that later on and clarified, Woelfy apologized, Sky accepted it, then the Magistrates said !@#$ precedent we are doing a verdict anyways.
We did a verdict so there would be a precedent, and I think we'll try to avoid verdict-less cases in the future.
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For one last time, this is not about Kyle, this is indeed for a bad precedent.
All of those cases were dealt poorly, the decisions are wrong and not just at all.If this is what you want to pass for OOC harass then you are creating a huge kindergarden and i can bet my fingers on it.
If you think that with such verdicts you serve justice and the rules you are so doing it wrong and you have absolutely no idea what you are doing and how badly you judge.Hell i even wonder if you understand the word "justice" at all.
If Tom is the person to appeal to , then Tom it is. I am not dropping this , it is so wrong and apparently discussing it makes absoluely no difference .
(http://epicpinterestfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/the-campaign-its-a-mess.gif)
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The first sign of trolling, when people start using meme pictures to support their argument.
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The luck of humor,when people make statements like yours Gustav Kuriga.
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I have a sense of humor, just not when someone's trying to support their laughable argument with meme pictures.
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I have a sense of humor, just not when someone's trying to support their laughable argument with meme pictures.
You speak a lot about arguments, law fun etc but I don't think you know the meaning of these words.
It seems like most of the Magistrates try to play judges and lawyers right now.
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It seems like most of the Magistrates try to play judges and lawyers right now.
Why do you think this board is called "The Courthouse"?
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You speak a lot about arguments, law fun etc but I don't think you know the meaning of these words.
It seems like most of the Magistrates try to play judges and lawyers right now.
I do believe they were put in place to judge whether a case has broken the social contract or not. So that they should play the part of judges is rather appropriate, I think. Unless you feel that we should just consider their verdicts as "suggestions"
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I have a sense of humor, just not when someone's trying to support their laughable argument with meme pictures.
I don't find insulting the fact that you cheerfully added the word "laughable" in there.Apparently others believed so and this is why now i have to make an appeal.I m just letting you know that.
Now as far as it concerns memes and calling it trolling as well , i will add that it also indicates you have no idea what trolling is in the first place and of course that you just don't like internet viral humor that memes are.
I have nothing more to add here so this will also be my last comment. I will discuss this with Tom because i feel it has to change,if he rejects my appeal then end of story.
I find it normal that some people disagree but i also find difficult to understand how you want such poor verdicts as precedent in a case like ooc harassement.
I also know that you couldn't care less i am saying i witnessed when i was in Swordfell some serious ooc harass from all parts and in different levels but i did so you can't call my argument weak, laughable, inexistent but for me is more important to support the things i know for facts even if i don't have evidence.
That's about it.
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I don't find insulting the fact that you cheerfully added the word "laughable" in there.Apparently others believed so and this is why now i have to make an appeal.I m just letting you know that.
Now as far as it concerns memes and calling it trolling as well , i will add that it also indicates you have no idea what trolling is in the first place and of course that you just don't like internet viral humor that memes are.
I have nothing more to add here so this will also be my last comment. I will discuss this with Tom because i feel it has to change,if he rejects my appeal then end of story.
I find it normal that some people disagree but i also find difficult to understand how you want such poor verdicts as precedent in a case like ooc harassement.
I also know that you couldn't care less i am saying i witnessed when i was in Swordfell some serious ooc harass from all parts and in different levels but i did so you can't call my argument weak, laughable, inexistent but for me is more important to support the things i know for facts even if i don't have evidence.
That's about it.
The reason I have so far not been moved by your arguments is that you (and everyone else arguing against this verdict) have so far completely failed to answer this simple question:
Why should we in effect rule that is OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself?
My answer is:
We shouldn't. It is never OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself.
How that very simple statement of principle became so controversial in this case is mind-boggling to me. If you want me to change my mind, come up with an argument that will make me reconsider that statement. Good luck.
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Geronus, what is wrong in what Lavigna and I said? If this is going to be used as a precedent, I think is just right to see if there is no flaw on it.
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Hum, ok, It is never OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself. But, and all other cases?
What I am asking is to see all cases together, under other perspective, trying to find flaws on all cases because those were the reason this last one occur. And not asking to change the verdict. Its done its done, I accept it, but if you affirm this will be used as precedent than I am worried.
I understand - and agree - when you say this verdict is right. If there where no other cases, if there where no antecedents, I wouldn't say anything. But it is not the case. The other cases had important significance in this verdict. Or not?
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I am not saying it's ok to tell people to go !@#$ themselves. for the love of god i think you ppl are playing around my words.
I am saying that maybe you didn't invest the time to see what made him say that.
When a murder occures no one searches just for the killer, they also search for the motives and they also search if the whole murder was actually provoked and an innocent got framed("agent provocateurs" do exist out there and guess what as noble as their cause may be ,if they are the main reason the "crime" occured then they are the aggressors)
I believe this is the case because i am trying to see all 3 case as 1. Maybe Shizzle had no idea as he says, but what about all those who knew Kyle and continuously harassed him, those must be found and punished.
If i am called an !@#$%^& , a jerk etc for a month, tried to drag attention of others on the matter and got ignored or just schooled through a Titan message and one signle person provoked me on something i m trying to say for fun on fb, i would blow. I am trying to see if this is the case.
I am sure there is a way to find messages from Swordfell and if Kyle doesn't want to share them, well i do.
The verdict is great but was it sent to all those who deserve it? No.
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Lavigna, if you can, provide some evidence. *any* evidence. Bring in some other people to provide evidence. Provide something to show that there was a concerted campaign to harass Kyle. Please. Don't just continually restate that you think there was. *prove* it. I know that many people would be willing to believe you if there were some evidence, from anyone, to back up that claim.
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Evidence>character witness>3rd party rumor. I can't access my Swordfell messages from the 'time in question', but agree that if they are relevant that the magistrates should re-open the Swordfell case (since it was hi-jacked by the Titans for something irrelevant). I never saw anything but an escalation of two character rivalries becoming two player rivalries, but my viewpoint is worth !@#$-all.
My personal opinion is that a single 'FU' and "QQ" statement shouldn't be that much of a big deal. Repeated attempts for harassment should be met with an ignore, repeat offenders should be brought to the magistrates. The recent case that involved Facebook is a bit of an outlier, but it is still the responsibility of every player to avoid escalating things. Both parties have decided to disconnect themselves from the case, so now it seems like we are arguing over legal doctrine rather than Woelfy vs Shizzle.
As to Lavigna, for a magistrate to 'abstain', I do find it unsettling that you would appeal the verdict after the fact. I understand you have a personal investment and feel the previous verdict wasn't right, but to abstain and then appeal seems....strange. It would have been better to abstain and immediately lay your cards out (evidence). Not to say the evidence may not be worth a look, but that you chose the wrong time to present it.
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Keep it civil, people. Don't make me lock this thread.
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I am not saying it's ok to tell people to go !@#$ themselves. for the love of god i think you ppl are playing around my words.
I am saying that maybe you didn't invest the time to see what made him say that.
When a murder occures no one searches just for the killer, they also search for the motives and they also search if the whole murder was actually provoked and an innocent got framed("agent provocateurs" do exist out there and guess what as noble as their cause may be ,if they are the main reason the "crime" occured then they are the aggressors)
I believe this is the case because i am trying to see all 3 case as 1. Maybe Shizzle had no idea as he says, but what about all those who knew Kyle and continuously harassed him, those must be found and punished.
If i am called an !@#$%^& , a jerk etc for a month, tried to drag attention of others on the matter and got ignored or just schooled through a Titan message and one signle person provoked me on something i m trying to say for fun on fb, i would blow. I am trying to see if this is the case.
I am sure there is a way to find messages from Swordfell and if Kyle doesn't want to share them, well i do.
The verdict is great but was it sent to all those who deserve it? No.
I wasn't trying to twist your words. I was trying to illustrate my own point of view, which is that if we ruled Not Guilty in this case, we would in effect be saying that there is some set of circumstances out there that renders it OK to tell another player to go !@#$ himself. That is how I see it, and that is a big part of why I am resistant to your arguments thus far.
Look, I'm with Indirik on this one. How many times did I ask Kyle to bring us some evidence? How many times have I said I would be more than happy to punish anyone who was proven to have been harassing him? Please bring me some evidence. I want to make an example here. There is no place in this community for sustained bullying or harassment. None. And if ever a case of such is brought before us, I will be leading the charge to impose the most serious punishment that can be devised.
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Each person--each adult--possesses free will and freely decides to insult, or counter-insult, or abstain from such conduct and be the more mature person.
http://bash.org/?23396 (http://bash.org/?23396)
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That depends on whether you think Shizzle was bullying Woelfy to get a rise out of him. I do not.
We did a verdict so there would be a precedent, and I think we'll try to avoid verdict-less cases in the future.
I have typed it out about three times now but lost it due to issues while on my iPad and I am tired that I will respond tomorrow.