| Summary: | Unnecessary Racist Slur |
| Violation: | Not insulting/being courteous to the global playerbase |
| World: | Dwilight |
| Complainer: | Ethan Lee Vita (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=34482) |
| About: | Kas (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=33123) |
somehow I found him to be lazy, very short with slanted eyes and a yellowish skin, every time I passed by him I thought he was asleep because I could not see his eyes opened
Yeah, because in the Middle Ages nobody was racist at all. Nope. All races were equal, and interracial communities thrived and prospered all over the world. Such a shame someone would go as far as to IMPLY a pseudo-racist remark on an NPC in a SMA setting...
Come on guys, we're not kids. I've seen stuff much worse than this being said in the SA channel, and everyone understood that it was just an IC thing. Why not now?
Well, speaking as a person brought here looking to see if there has been any Word on the matter by He who is Tom, I must say that I am left with about the same feelings now that I had when I started looking into this.
Speaking as a Caucasian of mongolian decent (although, who isn't?) who is RPing a Mongolian of mixed blood (although, who, wait, I did that joke...), I must say that if this was me dealing with it in character, I might have some pointed words with our realm's diplomat.
That said, this IS a SMA continent, racism was historically prevalent (So is syphilis the French Disease? Turkish? Spanish? Anyone want to claim this for their country and/or race? How about a rousing discussion about Blood Libel?), and the phrasing was open enough to be debatable as to who was being racist IMO.
It's not something I would do, I think, but in the context of the rule and the environment, I don't think slapping Kas for this is fair. Thinkng less of Kas for it? Sure. Less of Kas's player? Fine. But punishment based on no actual breach of BM's laws or the guidelines for messaging (where racism is not really referenced and no swear words were used) is bluntly unfair.
I couldn't care less about the lazy comment. It's the "slanted eyes" I have an issue with. And no, it's not "just a description". Calling an African-American the N-word could be "just a description" too, as the root of the word is from the "Latin/Spanish/Italian/whatever Romance language it was" for "black", yet the connotations behind that word go much deeper. As to references to slant eyes.So umm... how is calling someone the N-word a description? That's just a slur and describes nothing other than implying they African-American (which I hate saying because I honestly see nothing wrong with saying black). Asians do generally have slanted eyes on the other hand, thus being an actual description. That, and I have never heard slanted eyes as some bad connotation with chinese. A connotation, sure, but I have never heard "slanted eyes" used as something bad.
So umm... how is calling someone the N-word a description?
as the root of the word is from the "Latin/Spanish/Italian/whatever Romance language it was" for "black"
I couldn't care less about the lazy comment. It's the "slanted eyes" I have an issue with. And no, it's not "just a description". Calling an African-American the N-word could be "just a description" too, as the root of the word is from the "Latin/Spanish/Italian/whatever Romance language it was" for "black", yet the connotations behind that word go much deeper. As to references to slant eyes.
Not acceptable by me. There are clear racial references. Warning for first time offence. Ready to vote.
Connotations are not universal.
With the right crowd (even black people), I'm sure I could get away with using nigger. The important thing is to make clear I have no malicious intent. Unless otherwise indicated, we should assume these things are benign - this would fall into 'playing the game as with friends'. Just the usage of the word slanted shouldn't mean the comment is racist
and seeing it's IC being racist (not even towards another character but an NPC) alone shouldn't warrant penalty.
Utterly ridiculous. This isn't "the right crowd". I'm sure there are places in the world that I could get away with having a Swastika tattoo, for example. But it's been made pretty clear that referring to such things here is not okay. "Playing the game with friends" does not mean you can say the same sort of thing to anyone in the game that you would to your friends and think it's alright. My friends and I call each other dickhead and !@#$wit all the time and we know it's just a joke. Calling people those names in game, IC or OOC, would not be alright, and using phrases with racial overtones is even worse.
Then be IC racist against IC races/nationalities. Call them D'Haran scum or Arcaean sheep-!@#$ers. Do not be racist about RL races.
Did the player direct this at any character in particular? To another player? No.
Allowing this in game may later on "endorce" the use of it.
I think this is the same case as RPing 'rape'. I mean it happened quite often during war times and although the subject offends some players when you are in SMA, you either just ignore it or just play along.
And not allowing it may endorce further censorship (the only reason I have been posting here).
Also asian is not a nationality, and again: we all know and use stereotypes. Where do you draw the line?
In any case it's not my decision to make, I'm just curious about your reasoning.
Here's my question: why must the in-game race have both slanted-eyes and be yellow skinned? Why not have red-skinned natives with slanted eyes, and yellow skinned with big noses, etc? Why must an SMA continent have natives whose features match those of real-world groups?
Let's show some creativity, people! Mix and match!
-Calling each other names (as in other players) is not the same thing as a character thinking ill of an NPC based on appearance and expressing that opinion. Did the player direct this at any character in particular? To another player? No. People taking offense to this would be sympathising with a three word NPC character that won't even exist long enough to see the sun go down.
-D'Haran or Arcaean aren't races. Even in BM we would expect people to be causasian, asian, african, ... In real life racism isn't fair because you can't change the colour of your skin, but in BM you can do just that.
As long as we, as a community, assure not one single race is being targetted consistently, I can't see a problem with IC racism.
Here's my question: why must the in-game race have both slanted-eyes and be yellow skinned? Why not have red-skinned natives with slanted eyes, and yellow skinned with big noses, etc? Why must an SMA continent have natives whose features match those of real-world groups?
Let's show some creativity, people! Mix and match!
Are we going to legislate types of racism? "You can be as racist and offensive as you want, as long you replace all references to an existing ethnicity with ones to a fictitious ethnicity". Would someone spewing forth pages of offensive asian-related racist comments, but making them purple-skinned instead, really be all that better?
I doubt anyone would take offense for purple people with slanted eyes.
On the other hand in terms of racism as a word it may not be if there was a birth place for all those purple people and it wasn't just one exception, a weird looking lazy guy.
If someone keeps sending racial slurs on and on and on, constantly, about these slanted-eyed "purple"-skinned people, in a blatant display of how he's basically saying that purple asians are a miserable pile of insect dung undeserving of equal status to other races, you wouldn't take offense?
To me, the insistence of distasteful RPs (be them about rape, racism, or other stuff) is more important than their nature (like whether the other guy's purple instead of yellow).
and seeing it's IC being racist (not even towards another character but an NPC) alone shouldn't warrant penalty.So you're saying that my characters can be racist towards all the NPCs they want, using whatever racial slurs and epithets they want to use, and it's no big deal because "hey, it's an NPC"?
But really now...he just wanted to say the guy was lazy, since when laziness , stupidity or whatever has anything to do with the way someone looks or his race? Since never. He could have used multiple ways to explain the guy was lazy or simply state he was freaking lazy. End of story, the reference to his looks was needless mostly when pointing out in a certain direction.
So you're saying that my characters can be racist towards all the NPCs they want, using whatever racial slurs and epithets they want to use, and it's no big deal because "hey, it's an NPC"?
Well, speaking as a person brought here looking to see if there has been any Word on the matter by He who is Tom, I must say that I am left with about the same feelings now that I had when I started looking into this.
Speaking as a Caucasian of mongolian decent (although, who isn't?) who is RPing a Mongolian of mixed blood (although, who, wait, I did that joke...), I must say that if this was me dealing with it in character, I might have some pointed words with our realm's diplomat.
That said, this IS a SMA continent, racism was historically prevalent (So is syphilis the French Disease? Turkish? Spanish? Anyone want to claim this for their country and/or race? How about a rousing discussion about Blood Libel?), and the phrasing was open enough to be debatable as to who was being racist IMO.
It's not something I would do, I think, but in the context of the rule and the environment, I don't think slapping Kas for this is fair. Thinkng less of Kas for it? Sure. Less of Kas's player? Fine. But punishment based on no actual breach of BM's laws or the guidelines for messaging (where racism is not really referenced and no swear words were used) is bluntly unfair.
Here's my question: why must the in-game race have both slanted-eyes and be yellow skinned? Why not have red-skinned natives with slanted eyes, and yellow skinned with big noses, etc? Why must an SMA continent have natives whose features match those of real-world groups?+100
Let's show some creativity, people! Mix and match!
This is not about punishing one guy , it is a good opportunity to discuss about this though because just letting it be it may allow it to escalate in the future, i know english is not my native language but for the love of God do you not understand what i m saying?
This is the point. You can use whatever you want, but don't need to make it look like real life or make people feel not comfortable with it.Two problems with this. A: It's a low fantasy setting, so no purple/green. This means we are stuck using real pallettes, which are pretty much used somewhere in the world. B: If we do mix-and-match racism, then how far until someone makes it clear that they aren't referencing the fake race...but have in fact been referencing a real race for quite some time.
For something like this, if you are more interested in setting 'precedent' and 'what are our morales as a community' rather than care about the actual case (which deals with one person and his intent), then you are going to lose either way.
On the one hand, you can say "this has crossed the line" (like you have already stated), and open the door to any references to race as off-limits (or, that you can reference race but it must be in a good light). This will offend and alienate pretty much every nationality equally.
On the other hand, you can say "this hasn't reached the line", and open the discussion of what is the line when referencing race. This opens the door to endorsing comments such as these and/or escalating things.
The question isn't 'is this racist'. The question is 'did Vladimir stop playing as if with friends', figuring in that part of the group of friends IS asian. So far, the only asianic friend who posted said it was distasteful but not worth reprimand. Others disagree. Now magistrate without letting buzzwords and political-correctness turn this into something far bigger than it really is.
Two problems with this. A: It's a low fantasy setting, so no purple/green. This means we are stuck using real pallettes, which are pretty much used somewhere in the world. B: If we do mix-and-match racism, then how far until someone makes it clear that they aren't referencing the fake race...but have in fact been referencing a real race for quite some time.
For me it has crossed the line and i already said it , so as far as it goes for my vote it is pretty obvious?
But for me it's not just one vote.You vote for one case but you have to know that this vote will actually have a value for the whole community when a different case comes up. So what is your point exactly?
Players actually use verdicts from other cases to endorce their own .Of course and it is important. For me this is the line.So for me it's not just this guy,it is the line for the whole community.
Also what does it mean i am going to lose? I am not getting paid to support a case for any part. It is not a matter of winning or losing a case, it is a matter of trying to solve the case for the best of the parts involved and later on for the community itself, i am not playing the lawyer here ...
Racism is racism, there is no "light racism" and "harsh racism". It's racism. This case is an opportunity to say if we re ok with it or not and of course punish or not.I don't understand your point really.
Also what does it mean we should use real palletes? Do you really have to use a pallete AT ALL?When I talk about 'real palletes', I'm referring to the skin colors and facial features of real-world races (which most combinations are covered by some ethnic group). I guess we can all just omit racial features of IG people, but that kills immersion and RP freedom.
The title of this case says it all. It was unnecessary ... there was no need, it added nothing , it wasn't a roleplay that using an asian -like was essential, it was a totally uncalled racist comment. I am not saying that if it was a roleplay it would make any difference for me at least , but it was really really unnecessary.
I don't see the great roleplay that is gained by virtue of the comment, when lazy sufficed, compared to the racism towards a segment of the international playerbase. What has benefited ICly from these words to the impression the game leaves upon someone of east asian descent?
I know that this will be used for future cases, but that isn't the reason for this case. If you place more importance on "what this case means for the future" you lose sight of "what this case means to the accused/accuser".
The intent of the magistrates is to make sure everyone plays nice with each other and to help facilitate a good time. Over-sensitive rules, allowing abuses, or some combination of the two aren't going to do that. When you take the case out of context, and look at it as a policy decision rather than a disagreement between friends, then you aren't playing lawyer...you're playing legislator.
I would disagree. There is a chasm of a difference between "we should genocide x people" and "I think x people are lazy". The Social Contract covers insults/harassment, and insults/harassment vary in degree. Racism is just another vein of insult/harassment of one player to another. For insults/harassment cases I've always thought accuser's intent, violantion's degree, and the offended's feelings mattered.
When I talk about 'real palletes', I'm referring to the skin colors and facial features of real-world races (which most combinations are covered by some ethnic group). I guess we can all just omit racial features of IG people, but that kills immersion and RP freedom.
I guess, in general what I'm trying to say is that we can't make blanket decisions for 'racism', because it's never as simple as "that's racist!". It's a hot-button issue, that varies in definition, and can be largely interpretive. Vladimir's comments being unnecessary or not aren't really the issue. The issue is were Vladimir's make comments designed to insult/harass other players.
This is pretty much my take.
This was gratuitous racism. There is no place for that in BattleMaster. Talking about fears of "allowing more censorship" is just making excuses for people to be offensive.
Basic rule of operations: Do not be unnecessarily offensive. Do not be unnecessarily easily offended.
It should be fine if it happens IC with no real ill will behind it, only representing the character's low opinion of a particular ethnic group.
Racism should be banned. Endpoint. Any form of racism, any suggestion, any message that suggests discrimination.
Discuss whether or not there was no racism and not if one was offended or if there is a greater or lesser degree of racism.
If so, I think you need to have a very firm basis and legal logic to the path from social contract item through to this particular issue of racism, since it will be precedent from now on. A clear link between casual racism and the contract would be needed, since you are de-facto linking that to Tom and the Social Contract.
I agree with this. And D'Espana, I'm sorry, but slant-eyes and yellow skinned is a strangely specific thing to have trouble in english with.
No, I am not. I am exposing my opinion on that matter and saying that I don't know why there's anything against racism and discrimination in Inalienable Rights or in Social Contract. IMO it should be. That's why I brought Tom's name here.
IMO if the magistrates find a flaw in Social Contract they could/should take it to Tom so next time there would'nt be the need of a discussion.
I see no point in longs discussions here. Denounces here should be simple to decide. It IS a game. We are not deciding the future of the world.
But it is clear to me that my opinion differ - and much - from majority here.
If people have to be specifically told in the rules that racism isn't something you should do - in any game - then I fear for humanity. There are no specific rules in the game that say I shouldn't find out where a player lives, drive over there and take a !@#$ on his front doorstep, either, but its probably safe to say it's not something that should be done.
Not to mention, I don't think Tom's ever been a fan of legalese and detailing every single possible instance of wrongdoing as if it were a codified book of law. Its simple principles to apply to situations (is this how to play amongst friends, with the basis being those friends are of an international player base and if its insulting to those players?), not something to nitpick and try to weasel around in.
having to hire lawyers to write us a 74 page Social Contract.
Good job ignoring the point of the statement! You win a prize.
Were I to start playing an Arabic-speaking online game based in Saudia Arabia, I would spend some time finding out what was acceptable in that culture, rather than just jumping in and start making RPs talking about how much Allah sucks. A tiny modicum of research should be expected if people from other cultures decide to play a game based in a Western country. As opposed to just coming in and talking about "those lazy slant eyes".
I agree with this. And D'Espana, I'm sorry, but slant-eyes and yellow skinned is a strangely specific thing to have trouble in english with.
I think that this is clearly not the case here. There is no rp context whatsoever for the statement, no IC ethnic group with narrow eyes and yellow skin for Kas the character to hate. The racism seems to be randomly lifted from RL stereotypes and placed entirely without context into the game. If one wants to insult those evil and misshapen Toprakians then there is an argument to be made to allow IC medieval racism (though personally I think it best to be cautious anyway). But this is not the case here, and even if this is some kind of attempt to create "atmosphere" by introducing medieval racism then we should make it very clear that randomly inserting RL ethnicities and racist slurs word for word into the game with no IC or RP context whatsoever is not the correct way to go about it.
Morals are relative, you shouldn't assume that everyone everywhere thinks the same way that most Westerners do. Most non-Western countries in fact do not make much of a fuss over racism, or when they do it's usually influenced by American media.
So, in order to not surprise people from non-Western backgrounds it should be made clear that racism isn't tolerated in any forms.
But in the case of Kas's letter specifically, this is much ado about nothing. It's a minor comment that's been blown out of porportion. In order to solve the issue, all that had to be done was to contact Kas privately OOC and warn him that that kind of thing is a bit controversial around here. At this point Kas probably knows not to do it again, so punishment would be useless and unfair in light of the fact that Western moral values aren't universally known.
Good job ignoring the point of the statement! You win a prize.
Were I to start playing an Arabic-speaking online game based in Saudia Arabia, I would spend some time finding out what was acceptable in that culture, rather than just jumping in and start making RPs talking about how much Allah sucks. A tiny modicum of research should be expected if people from other cultures decide to play a game based in a Western country. As opposed to just coming in and talking about "those lazy slant eyes".
A lot of websites have a very short disclaimer that racism, homophobia and discrimination are not allowed. That seems like a comprehensive list of Western taboos, so it could easily be implemented without being absurd in length.
As a counter-example, I live in Canada. Also a melting pot of different cultures - many of them non-Western. I HAVE seen individuals of a non-Western background - African, eastern Asian, Russian, middle Eastern and others - march into a crowd of strangers and start yelling out racism. I've seen CANADIANS do this. It's popped up at a few different rallies, and at least one riot in the past decade. Those that do, regardless of background are, also roundly condemned.
Apparently nothing at all.
You know, I think we just won one internet. At the very least we've managed one internet argument trope. :)
Please, stop this nonsense. This is the action of a feverous player that wants to harm my ingame play at the cost of some low excuse of morality.
I don't know how many times I or anyone else in D'Hara have related Lurians to traitorous bitches that are better dead than alive. That is racism (quite justified by the way) Will I be reported to the Magistrates if I continue to do so?
I really really cant understand all the sensivity in game these days.
It is GAME! Virtual world, virtual characters, bits and bytes... someone rapes peasant, doesnt mean anybody actually got hurt, someone insults peasant, doesnt mean anybody actually got insulted...
-Jaune
You simply refuse to see the point.
This is not about punishing one guy , it is a good opportunity to discuss about this though because just letting it be it may allow it to escalate in the future, i know english is not my native language but for the love of God do you not understand what i m saying?
I personally see the Magistrates NOT as punishers but as an opportunity to set some boundaries for the players in order to not have them hurt each other.
I would want to be responsible for any player feeling insulted and offended for his race, nation, color, eyes or whatever.Infact it is exactly the same as harassing him without knowing it.
If you find it non important well good for you and good for sharing your opinion, just don't mock others for feeling differently, it is a game, it is an interactive one thus you will have to respect the way some players feel because you don't play alone.
This is pretty much my take.
This was gratuitous racism. There is no place for that in BattleMaster. Talking about fears of "allowing more censorship" is just making excuses for people to be offensive.
Basic rule of operations: Do not be unnecessarily offensive. Do not be unnecessarily easily offended.
There is need to separate modern day values and medieval values. Since Battlemaster is set in the Middle Ages of Europe, you need to cut loose a whole lot of things you think are unacceptable nowadays. In fact it's a-okay to slander people with a different skin colour, smack your woman around and even torture the occasionally peasant as long as it's IG. Go insult a player with racist slurs, though, and I'm sure the verdict will be very swift and easy to make.
I would much prefer to ask people being offensive to stop being offensive than ask people being offended to stop being offended.
Are you implying it is wrong to ask people to stop being offended?
Are you implying it is wrong to ask people to stop being offended?
It can be wrong, depending on what they are being offended by.
In this case, it seems to me that the first step must be to ask the offending party to stop being offensive, whether or not it was originally his intent to be so.
There are certainly cases where people are offended by things that should not generally be considered offensive: a perfectly innocent remark that could, if you were overly sensitive, be misinterpreted, or a typo that turns (if you will pardon the slur) a cook into a gook.
It can be wrong, depending on what they are being offended by.
In this case, it seems to me that the first step must be to ask the offending party to stop being offensive, whether or not it was originally his intent to be so.
There are certainly cases where people are offended by things that should not generally be considered offensive: a perfectly innocent remark that could, if you were overly sensitive, be misinterpreted, or a typo that turns (if you will pardon the slur) a cook into a gook.
This, however, is not one of those. The English was not, as the player himself has admitted, the clearest, but even if it was not the intent, the description of the scribe as "lazy, very short with slanted eyes and a yellowish skin" is precisely the sort of negative image that has, in the past, been associated with Asian (and particularly Chinese) immigrants in the West. Personally, I cannot see how it could be intended as anything other than a racist way of saying "my scribe is a lazy Chinese bum," but I will take the player's word for his lack of racist intent.
So, the important points in this case:
1) The message included what was clearly an anti-Asian ethnic slur.
2) The racism added nothing meaningful to the message.
3) It was not directed against any established in-character ethnic group.
Thus, it was clearly a case of gratuitous racism, which is unacceptable within the game.
1) No. It was not clearly an anti-Asian ethnic slur. I am an American who hears racism often and it was not obvious to me that slanted eyes was an anti-Asian ethnic slur, of which several other people have said.
The problem isn't just the "slant-eyes". It's the whole of it: short, slanted eyes, yellow skin—that means he's lazy.
your words makes no sense.
HOW?
short + slanted eyes + yellow skin = lazy
HOW?
Summary: Unnecessary Racist Slur Violation: Not insulting/being courteous to the global playerbase World: Dwilight Complainer: Ethan Lee Vita (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=34482) About: Kas (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=33123)
I must apologize, was a lack of discipline from my courtier to not teach my new scriba my previous adresses properly, somehow I found him to be lazy, very short with slanted eyes and a yellowish skin, every time I passed by him I thought he was asleep because I could not see his eyes opened, but since I found this discrepancy better to change.
Just because you think this is cut and dry doesn't make it so. You your self said don't be easily offended, which is what everyone who is getting pissed about someone who has iffy english skills didn't know that a description of a race to by him was considered racist by other people. Publish a list of terms that are unacceptable or quit complaining that people are using obviously racist terms when it isn't obvious to several members of this thread and likely many more IG. People shouldn't be required to look up every word they type in urbandictionary.com to make sure some !@#$%^& isn't using it to discriminate against people when as stated, their are many different cultures interacting in this game thus its not going to be obvious that words that actually describe people is seen as racist to others.
All discussion of the Titan cases and decisions has been moved to the Questions & Answers board here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4299.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4299.0.html)
Please do not discuss the Titan cases any further in this thread and stick to the topic at hand.
We will never publish any specific list of terms that are unacceptable. The yardstick is and remains whether or not someone else considers what you said to be offensive. If so, that person should contact you with their concerns and then you should attempt to work it out with them. If the issue cannot be resolved by direct discussions between the two parties, it can be brought here by the offended party.A stipulation of a if someone tells you they find it offensive might be valid, but its hardly fair to say people can't say offensive things, have no idea that what they said was offensive, then get punished for being offensive. If someone said I am offended by what you said and he kept using it, sure its fair to punish him because thats not playing with friends but do you get pissed at friends because they said something offensive out of ignorance? That doesn't seem like you are playing with friends when acting like that either.
This case skipped the step where the players attempt to work it out themselves. We will rule on it, but a warning is likely what to expect given that no one made any attempt to contact Kas with their concerns prior to coming here (and thereby gave him no chance to explain himself or otherwise make amends), combined with the other extenuating factors. That said, enough people viewed the comment as offensive that I think it's justified to issue a warning.
A stipulation of a if someone tells you they find it offensive might be valid, but its hardly fair to say people can't say offensive things, have no idea that what they said was offensive, then get punished for being offensive. If someone said I am offended by what you said and he kept using it, sure its fair to punish him because thats not playing with friends but do you get pissed at friends because they said something offensive out of ignorance? That doesn't seem like you are playing with friends when acting like that either.