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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on May 27, 2013, 06:33:48 AM

Title: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: BattleMaster Server on May 27, 2013, 06:33:48 AM

Summary:	He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Violation:	Playing at your own speed, timing and activity level
World:	Far East
Complainer:	Zach Eubanks (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=33345)
About:	Magnus (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=3190)

Full Complaint Text:
Hello! I'm here to request that an argument be settled. Not just some silly argument, of course, but an argument regarding game rules that seems to have sprung up. So, Magnus Himoura is the general of Kindara, where one of my characters is. We've been taking over a region, but his character apparently thinks we're doing it too slowly. In one of his orders, he mentioned that he would have anybody who was not actively supporting the takeover fined. I considered that this action he threatened was a breach of the first inalienable right, and I made the mistake of mentioning that in-character. The whole affair spawned some pretty good roleplay, but now we're having a realm-wide discussion on it out-of-character. I mentioned that I would have to contact the titans or magistrates if anybody got fined for inactivity, but then I was reminded the bit in the social contract about that, so I had to follow through now rather than later. I'd really appreciate it if you could shed some light and settle this argument.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Penchant on May 27, 2013, 06:39:31 AM

Well first, to be certain one way or the other, sharing the related letters is necessary.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Stabbity on May 27, 2013, 06:42:34 AM

For reference, I am enclosing pertinent messages. Its already been discussed, and I've seen this issue beat to death time and again, I have not threatened anyone with fines for inactivity. I have given orders that those who are not supporting a takeover to be fined for inactivity, and even went on to clarify that this would be for consistent disobedience, and that anyone who felt like they received a fine and shouldn't have is free to send me a message ooc to fix everything. I can see the confusion with my first sentence there, it was poorly worded, but I did clarify.

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (10 hours, 43 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Everyone in Paplarmi is to be spendjng all of their hours every turn supporting the takeover. I can count on one hand the number of nobles that helped support the takeover last turn. I do not wish to ask fines but if that is what it will take I will. We need to finish this takeover and it requires EVERYONE'S support.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura   (5 hours, 29 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Nobody is being fined for IR reasons. Consistently not following orders is ALWAYS a valid reason for punishment. Go to the forum and read similar magistrate cases and you will find it to be so. I'm not asking people to log in every turn, or even every day. I am making a very simple order to click a few times when you do log on. In the future, please avoid throwing around the IR as a gigantic "I do what I want" shield.

Justin Licht


Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura   (4 hours, 56 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Granted. I have never been a player to care about 100% movement 100% of the time. RL takes precedence. I missed a whole turn yesterday because of a kidney stone (which might explain if I seem irritated, if I do I apologize, its my shredded urinary tract talking, not me). The issue Magnus is taking is that he sees very, very few reports of takeover attempts, and I even talked to one of the devs to how many show up and whatnot, because in my experience I've seen a lot more in a realm with fewer nobles (its actually based on how effective your attempt was, if it was only marginally effective, it doesn't get reported). Pus its memorial day weekend, I don't expect too many people to be on. I've got a parade to march in tomorrow, and a barbecue to follow, I might be on BM during part of it, but I'm an addict :p, and that's the exception not the rule. I'll never push for punishment because someone couldn't log on, but at the same time if someone is just sitting around soaking up tax gold, I'm not going to sit around and not say anything. If there is ever an incident where Magnus pushes for punishment on someone, and they shoot me an OOC note saying "hey I haven't been on because of xyz" I'll let it slide. I've played for ten years, and enjoyed it, and have a number of people I know enjoy playing in realms I'm in, and I do strive to make it fun. But, Magnus is a character, and he's a rather serious type. He is the third generation of his family to war with PoZ and he badly wants to put an end to them.

Justin Licht

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 06:47:12 AM

Zach Eubanks here. Thank you, Stabbity, for posting the messages you've sent. For my purposes, only the first will be relevant. The argument is not over Magnus's intention -- I can respect the fact that he would want his orders followed. The argument is over whether or not you can force people to consistently check the game at least every 12 hours, and I am only asking for an answer from somebody who has the authority to settle the argument, not for any disciplinary action to be taken.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Stabbity on May 27, 2013, 06:53:07 AM

You cannot force someone to log on every 12 hours and check. Its an inalienable right. There's no debate on that subject. My wording was poor (thank you vicoden), and I addressed it in later messages. No one is being fined for not logging in. No one has been fined.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Penchant on May 27, 2013, 06:55:52 AM

Quote from: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 06:47:12 AM

Zach Eubanks here. Thank you, Stabbity, for posting the messages you've sent. For my purposes, only the first will be relevant. The argument is not over Magnus's intention -- I can respect the fact that he would want his orders followed. The argument is over whether or not you can force people to consistently check the game at least every 12 hours, and I am only asking for an answer from somebody who has the authority to settle the argument, not for any disciplinary action to be taken.

Yes, his intentions are what matters. As he stated, his first letter sounds a bit incriminating until you hear the rest the story behind it. Clarifiying no one will be punished if they simply don't log on is saying, he doesn't care if you are inactive, just let him know so that either the punishment gets revoked, or just not done if you let him know in time, aka, he is going out of his way to let you know he will never punish you for inactivity aka he won't/is not breaking the IR related to inactivity. He never stated anyone needs to consistently check the game at least every 12 hours, he actually said that it is quite understandable and that he doesn't always either.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 07:08:12 AM

The fact that nobody is being fined yet is the reason for which I am not requesting that any disciplinary action be taken. Again, this argument is about whether or not you can do what Magnus has threatened to do. Although you may have explained his actions, he has not yet withdrawn his threat, and just because you say that he would not be fining characters for inactivity does not make it true. As I recall, the harshest punishments are said to be reserved for players who attempt to "weasel around" the inalienable rights.

Penchant, what I got from his explanations is essentially "I'll fine you, but then I might un-fine you if I like your explanation." To quote Stabbity's second OOC message, "If there is ever an incident where Magnus pushes for punishment on somepony, and they shoot me an OOC note saying "hay I haven't been on because of xyz" I'll let it slide." The implication that I am receiving is not that there is an overwhelming desire to defend the IRs, but rather that Stabbity does not see what his character threatened to do as a breach of them in the first place and that only by the generous grace of Stabbity will some poor character be saved from monetary discipline. I'm not expecting Stabbity to agree with me on anything here, really, and that is exactly why I have brought this argument here.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Stabbity on May 27, 2013, 07:56:22 AM

Look, the magistrates aren't about solving arguments. Reading previous cases holds all the answers you want:

Here is a relevant case's verdict. You can read it if you like, its titled "Banned for five days of inactivity"

Quote

A verdict has been reached, and no IG enforcement actions were necessary. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict was:

"The Magistrates find Evi Dimi not guilty of violating the Inalienable Rights. From all appearances, the bans were intended to punish characters for their decisions: namely, their decision to remain in a realm for hundreds of days and repeatedly ignore or disobey orders. While few days of inactivity never merits a ban, prolonged months of insufficient responses to reasonable queries, disobedience of orders, and general uselessness to a realm is certainly sufficient grounds for an entirely IC, non-IR-violating ban. A player's right to inactivity is protected, and its negative effects are controlled for by auto-pausing. But a character's right to blasé disregard for orders is not protected.

Magistrates voted 6-0 in favor of the not guilty verdict."

This thread is now closed.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 08:10:26 AM

More relevant would be this case. (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1068.0.html)
Let me also quote the final verdict.

Quote from: Vellos

A verdict has been reached, and IG Magistrate actions have been made. For anybody who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict was:

"It is never acceptable to order, request, or suggest the violation of Inalienable Rights. This is especially important about the right to play at your own pace. No player should ever be threatened with punishment because they fail to make daily reports. Moreover, it is especially important to note that it is a violation of inalienable rights even if no punishment is given: sending messages that violate Inalienable Rights is a punishable action.

Given that no punishments were actually handed out, and given that the player of Balewin clearly had no malicious intent, and given that the player of Balewin evidently understands that he overstepped his bounds, the Magistrates will only give a warning this time."

Magistrates voted 8-0 in favor of a warning with no lock as the proper response.

It should be noted that, in addition to demanding that each noble support the takeover on a twice-a-day basis, your character also demanded that reports be included of their work. That's two reports a day, which coincided very well with my example. On a side note, reading previous cases is a very fascinating experience.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Stabbity on May 27, 2013, 08:12:42 AM

Hence the OOC clarification. We all say dumb things sometimes. Doubly so while on prescription pain killers. Ordering people to report their actions is not an IR violation. The original wording of my letter, yes, that would constitute a violation, but then again HENCE THE CLARIFICATION.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fury on May 27, 2013, 10:31:07 AM

It shouldn't have been said in the first place. Warning for first time offence. Ready to vote.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Lavigna on May 27, 2013, 11:10:58 AM

The only thing i see here is poor wording indeed.

However what i want to know is if the OOC clarification was given after the report or before the report.

Fine or threaten to fine is the same thing. To me it makes no difference.So i won't judge differently.
But what i really see here is a bad wording and nothing more.

It is only expected for a General to give orders to the soldiers and demand from them to act but everytime a player gives such an order he/she should make sure to include that those who won't follow orders will be submitted to investigation as to why they haven't acted.

It is a fact that the game itself reports the actions of nobles.For example in a TO as TOs now work  everyone knows who contributed and who didn't thus those who are leading have every right to ask why those who were ordered did not follow orders and according to their answer act as they should.

That of course also means they should be very careful in how they phrase their orders because a strict one can lead players to think that in case they miss a turn they will receive a punishment.This is absolutely wrong even if the intentions were genuine.

Thus i am asking. Was the clarification given right away by the player because he himself understood that his order could be misinterpreted ? Or was he asked for one?

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Stabbity on May 27, 2013, 12:48:11 PM

I gave it shortly thereafter, having realized my mistake, and quite some time before the complaint was filed.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 12:50:41 PM

There were a number of in-character messages shared between nobles between the first order given and the explanations that were provided. In fact, it was almost five hours between the two, during which (I believe) 15 letters and RP messages were shared. Before and after the clarification, there was an amount of OOC discussion on the topic as well. I believe it was somewhat well understood that, by the time Stabbity felt the need to explain himself, his character's orders were not taken well.

EDIT: For a specific example, this message was sent by one player precisely 12 minutes before Stabbity's first OOC message attempting to explain himself:

Quote

Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust   (11 hours, 46 minutes ago)
Message sent to everypony in your realm (34 recipients)
Also, fining people for not logging in is in fact in violation of our inalienable rights, as far as I know. And I can really see this situation going that way, not necessarily, but quite possibly...

Raluca Borozan

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Chenier on May 27, 2013, 01:13:08 PM

I don't agree on the policy of "inactive characters will be fined until the players give me OOC justification to remove the fine". It's an undue burden on players who have a hard time logging in, and when one's only log in method is a mobile device, typing an OOC justification could take time and be overall quite unpleasant (I know I hate writing letters from my mobile).

There's nothing wrong with fining people who could have supported the TO but which you know didn't, for example: they moved to the wrong region, they looted instead of supporting the TO, or gave another indicator that they had logged in but still failed to do what you asked of them. But guilty until proven otherwise is not, as far as I know, the way we work around here. And "guilty until made innocent by IR" should not be the way players work either.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Indirik on May 27, 2013, 01:33:45 PM

I think more letters are needed here. I see someone said that Magnus ordered twice-daily reports of TO actions? Is there a message to support this?  Is that one message Stabbity gave the order in question? Are there any more to support it?

Also, as Evi says, whether or not punishments were actually given is irrelevant in determining whether or not something is a violation.

Also also, fines cannot be canceled. Once a fine is given, it cannot be retracted and must be paid. The best you can do is give them the gold to pay it.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 01:41:06 PM

Quote

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (15 hours, 45 minutes ago)
Message sent to everypony in your realm (34 recipients)
Sir Julias,

I will not tolerate insubordination, which is what your words are. Speak in a similar tone again, and you shall face punishment.

Since it is not abundantly clear to you, a very basic concept which is taught to young children of noble houses, fines are a means of discipline. Discipline is in place to ensure that undesirable behavior is not repeated. If undesirable behavior is present in a military situation, people die. If it repeats, those guilty need to be adjusted so that the behavior does not continue, costing more lives, and possibly, the war. This is war, you do what you're told, and live with the consequences if you don't. If you would prefer to moan and complain, I'm sure I can find a knitting circle in Masahakon to assign you to instead of the army. My predecessor died on these fields, died hoping for nothing but a Kindaran victory in this war, and I'll be damned if I don't see to that happening, and the whining of a couple nobles who don't like hearing that they have to follow orders.

I sincerely do not want to fine anyone. I want everyone to do their jobs without me having to bang my head against the wall and deal with your constant bemoaning of good military order. But, if I do not see another way to ensure that good military order is enforced, I will have fines levied. That gold could be put to better use in the pockets of a noble who contributes to the war effort. I also assure you that it is an easy matter to see who supports the takeover or not.

Lords,

Put your vassals in line.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Quote

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (15 hours, 44 minutes ago)
Message sent to everypony in your realm (34 recipients)
Henceforth,

All nobles of Kindara are required to send me a copy of their report after taking action to support the takeover.


Good day,

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

For reference, both of these messages were sent before any OOC discussion had taken place.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Indirik on May 27, 2013, 01:50:11 PM

Ha! I knew Stabbity was a closet brony!

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fanofgaming on May 27, 2013, 01:57:54 PM

The Ponify addon loves to do mean things to me. You know what? I caught all the bits in the actual quote, I'm going to leave the damned "everypony in your realm" part.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Lavigna on May 27, 2013, 02:00:07 PM

Ah well, as much as i adore my Stabbity he seems a bit ummm... excited about this TO...maybe a bit too much?

I can see why people would take his messages the wrong way and maybe his intentions were genuine but his orders were wrong in so many levels :P

I believe spanking is in order.

It is one of the most sensitive matters in this game and sometimes in game mechanics do add some flavor and lead to the sin.
I remember when log in hours were still in game and how many players used those to punish and this is why they were removed as well...
It seems that the reports of TO in this particular case made him scream " I 've got the power" here and due to that he issued orders that can be interpreted as " i will fine those who won''t aid the TO".

He knows he's wrong but that 's not making it right because he kinda realized it a tad late , me thinks.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Foxglove on May 27, 2013, 02:21:24 PM

See below for the entire series of in-character messages. This is before it all went into OOC discussion.

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (18 hours, 12 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Everyone in Paplarmi is to be spendjng all of their hours every turn supporting the takeover. I can count on one hand the number of nobles that helped support the takeover last turn. I do not wish to ask fines but if that is what it will take I will. We need to finish this takeover and it requires EVERYONE'S support.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Letter from Julias Talboh   (17 hours, 58 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
I feel as if threatening to demand fines against anybody who does not support this takeover on an hourly basis may be a poor way to motivate us. We are nobles, and we have inalienable rights, Commander. Do not threaten to ignore them again.

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Letter from Magnus Himoura   (17 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Not following orders is not a right you possess Sir Julius. I would advise you to refrain from threatening myself. If we are to win this war, orders must be followed, and it is quite clear not everyone is supporting the takeover, or it would have been finished, or nearing completion.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Letter from Julias Talboh   (16 hours, 53 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
While refusing to follow orders is, perhaps, an action which might warrant punishment, failure to follow a passive order 100% of the time would not. This is inarguable. Furthermore, please point out the precise moment when I threatened you, for I seem to have misunderstood my own words if that is what I have done. All I did was make a demand that was well within my rights. I am not advocating the ignoring of your orders -- on the contrary, you will find that I have been supporting both of the recent takeovers with almost all of my time. My complaint now revolves around your chosen method of attempting to threaten the nobles under your command into respecting you. You must agree that to do so is not the proper way to earn respect. If we are to win this war, Commander, you must make wise and strong decisions. Deciding to word your orders in such a way that they included a threat that you could not possibly follow up on was neither wise nor strong.

Really, I am not trying to undermine your authority or to insult your honor. I only mean to see you thrive as a commander.

Best wishes,

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Letter from Magnus Himoura   (16 hours, 41 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Sir Julius,

A demand and a threat are often one and the same. Particularly in my vocabulary, since I have little time or patience for the verbose grammatical gymnastics of a politician. I suggest you spend some time contemplating why making demands of your Commander is inappropriate behavior. I would also suggest taking some time to consider that if I did not feel it warranted, I would have not made my statement. It has been suggested that about 1/3rd of takeover actions get reported at large, well if that is the case, then six nobles participated in the takeover of Paplarmi during the last 12 hour period. We are at war, and orders to takeover a region are not passive orders, nor are they complicated. They are essential. Time is important, and every hour we stand around waiting for Paplarmi to fall is another hour where Arcaea finally might get its act together and come to help support Zonasa. That is why I make demands, that is why I issue orders. That is why I expect them followed, and why I would start to consider fines. Every person not actively participating in the takeover is risking the lives of every Kindaran in Paplarmi by lengthening our stay. We have Zonasa right where I want them, the time to press the advantage is now.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Letter from Julias Talboh   (16 hours, 30 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Commander,

You have managed to explain why it is important to follow orders. I applaud your explanation, for it is quite clear: if we do not follow orders, then things do not get done. Again, though, you are telling this to a man who has been following orders thoroughly and expeditiously ever since he has taken an estate in Kindara. What you have not done is explain how fining nobles for doing nothing is something that is within yours or anyone's power. Other than that, I have no interest in extending this argument any longer, and I would rather not get reprimanded for causing unnecessary conflict within the realm, so let us call this a one-time complaint. I shall speak no more on the subject, so if you feel the need to continue to defend your words instead of admitting that you may have chosen them very poorly, then I welcome you to do so without any further opposition, though you may find it to be a quite pointless action.

Perhaps it would have been wiser to contain this argument to a private discussion after my first letter. I do so hate to make such a thing a public affair, but I felt the need to defend the rights of my peers. Many apologies.

Regards,

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Letter from Alma Aeterdust   (16 hours, 24 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Sir Julias, you should not apologize for raising these points. I must say I do share some of your doubts. I wonder at the method one might employ to determine which one of us hasn't been following the order to support the takeover. I also wonder at the time, effort and manpower accomplishing such a feat might entail... wouldn't these resources be better employed to support the takeover?

Commander Magnus, you said you have no patience for grammatical gymnastics. You also said you do not wish to ask for fines, but you will. Is that not just a politician's way of saying that one way or another, you will make us do whatever it is you want us to do? Granted, what you want us to do at present is a worthy task, but please, either speak plainly or stop claiming you always do so.

And when you say you do not wish to ask fines, you truly should mean it, instead of trying to craft a less threatening turn of phrase. Would you rather we support the takeover so that Kindara might prevail in this war and flourish or so that we won't get fined? Such a choice should not be...

My regards,

Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes

Letter from Julias Talboh   (16 hours, 19 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Worry not, Dame Alma, for my apologies were entirely sarcastic. I am glad to learn that I am not the only one here who understands what it means to have his rights threatened.

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (16 hours, 14 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Sir Julias,

I will not tolerate insubordination, which is what your words are. Speak in a similar tone again, and you shall face punishment.

Since it is not abundantly clear to you, a very basic concept which is taught to young children of noble houses, fines are a means of discipline. Discipline is in place to ensure that undesirable behavior is not repeated. If undesirable behavior is present in a military situation, people die. If it repeats, those guilty need to be adjusted so that the behavior does not continue, costing more lives, and possibly, the war. This is war, you do what you're told, and live with the consequences if you don't. If you would prefer to moan and complain, I'm sure I can find a knitting circle in Masahakon to assign you to instead of the army. My predecessor died on these fields, died hoping for nothing but a Kindaran victory in this war, and I'll be damned if I don't see to that happening, and the whining of a couple nobles who don't like hearing that they have to follow orders.

I sincerely do not want to fine anyone. I want everyone to do their jobs without me having to bang my head against the wall and deal with your constant bemoaning of good military order. But, if I do not see another way to ensure that good military order is enforced, I will have fines levied. That gold could be put to better use in the pockets of a noble who contributes to the war effort. I also assure you that it is an easy matter to see who supports the takeover or not.

Lords,

Put your vassals in line.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (16 hours, 13 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Henceforth,

All nobles of Kindara are required to send me a copy of their report after taking action to support the takeover.


Good day,

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Letter from Alma Aeterdust   (15 hours, 19 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Commander Magnus,

Where exactly are these nobles who don't like hearing that they have to follow orders? Sir Julias obviously can't be one, I do believe we all got the report not long ago that he did in fact follow your orders and support the takeover. So is it me? It might surprise you to find I sent my men out for a cultural exchange this evening. Of course, you have only my word for it and I guess my word doesn't mean much to you so feel free to fine me, I'm sure my finances can withstand it.

And that is my biggest concern on your proposed method of getting us to heel. You're putting a price, a monetary value, on insubordination. So I guess we can stop asking ourselves what the repercussion of our failing to follow orders will be on the realm and just stick to what those repercussion will mean to our finances... Is that truly how you want us to view orders: something we can do or not do and lose some money? I fail to see how that is effective in getting us to follow orders...

I should point out that not all children are brought up in the same way and different noble house might have different views on methods of discipline. Shocking, I know. I do feel bad for you, you show signs of having had a rather unfortunate childhood.

Still, if you wanted to lead a crowd of senseless creatures that do whatever you want them to do with little to no complains regardless of how you treat them, you should've been a shepherd.

My regards,

Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes

Letter from Magnus Himoura   (14 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Dame Alma,

Would you prefer we start flogging nobles? Or should we just ban and execute on the first offense. Fines are worse for repeat offenses, and in the case of continous and blatant disregard for orders, banishment follows. I have never accused either you or Sir Julius of not following orders. Insubordination, yes, but at least you do your damned jobs.

Also, that chamber pot better be sparkling when it is returned to me.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Letter from Alma Aeterdust   (13 hours, 10 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (34 recipients)
Commander,

I must point out you are the only one who proposed flogging nobles in our conversation so far. I cannot say I am much impressed by the suggestion or what it spells of your opinion of the nobles under your command. If you had read my missives more carefully you might have figured out that I am of the opinion that fear of punishment is not as empowering a reason to follow orders as our current reasons. And the way you are going about it, I believe you would have us all following orders for fear of punishment or just wishing to avoid it.

If simply speaking out against your methods falls under insubordination in your opinion, so be it. I will not try to change your mind, nor will I act any differently in the future if I feel my concerns are warranted. If you wish for someone to just fall on their backs and take whatever you dish out with a smile on their faces and no protest, troop leaders are not the profession you are seeking. The harlot tents are at the periphery of camp. Though, I should warn you, some moaning might be involved even there.

My regards,

Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Phellan on May 28, 2013, 01:03:34 AM

I'm going to be lazy and just copy paste the whole array of IC and OOC messages, since they get confused in the middle.

As far as I'm concerned Stabbity is correct in the sense that Orders were not being followed and fines were correctly required.  However, his way of phrasing it may be the issue here.   We've been in the region for more than 5 days - more than enough time to determine if people are following Orders or not.   


Orders from Magnus Himoura   (1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Ladies and Gentlemen,

Everyone in Paplarmi is to be spendjng all of their hours every turn supporting the takeover. I can count on one hand the number of nobles that helped support the takeover last turn. I do not wish to ask fines but if that is what it will take I will. We need to finish this takeover and it requires EVERYONE'S support.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Out-of-Character from Daven Aerinia   (1 day, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Paplarmi (23 recipients)

Not every action results in a public message. I know only about a 1/3 of my support actions get reported. Not sure what determines it.

Lane Malone

Letter from Julias Talboh   (1 day, 4 hours ago)
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I feel as if threatening to demand fines against anybody who does not support this takeover on an hourly basis may be a poor way to motivate us. We are nobles, and we have inalienable rights, Commander. Do not threaten to ignore them again.

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Letter from Magnus Himoura   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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Not following orders is not a right you possess Sir Julius. I would advise you to refrain from threatening myself. If we are to win this war, orders must be followed, and it is quite clear not everyone is supporting the takeover, or it would have been finished, or nearing completion.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn


Letter from Julias Talboh   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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While refusing to follow orders is, perhaps, an action which might warrant punishment, failure to follow a passive order 100% of the time would not. This is inarguable. Furthermore, please point out the precise moment when I threatened you, for I seem to have misunderstood my own words if that is what I have done. All I did was make a demand that was well within my rights. I am not advocating the ignoring of your orders -- on the contrary, you will find that I have been supporting both of the recent takeovers with almost all of my time. My complaint now revolves around your chosen method of attempting to threaten the nobles under your command into respecting you. You must agree that to do so is not the proper way to earn respect. If we are to win this war, Commander, you must make wise and strong decisions. Deciding to word your orders in such a way that they included a threat that you could not possibly follow up on was neither wise nor strong.

Really, I am not trying to undermine your authority or to insult your honor. I only mean to see you thrive as a commander.

Best wishes,

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel


Letter from Magnus Himoura   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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Sir Julius,

A demand and a threat are often one and the same. Particularly in my vocabulary, since I have little time or patience for the verbose grammatical gymnastics of a politician. I suggest you spend some time contemplating why making demands of your Commander is inappropriate behavior. I would also suggest taking some time to consider that if I did not feel it warranted, I would have not made my statement. It has been suggested that about 1/3rd of takeover actions get reported at large, well if that is the case, then six nobles participated in the takeover of Paplarmi during the last 12 hour period. We are at war, and orders to takeover a region are not passive orders, nor are they complicated. They are essential. Time is important, and every hour we stand around waiting for Paplarmi to fall is another hour where Arcaea finally might get its act together and come to help support Zonasa. I have no doubt with Cathay in close proximity, we would defeat them in battle, but it would slow the efforts to end Zonasa's capability to wage war. That is why I make demands, that is why I issue orders. That is why I expect them followed, and why I would start to consider fines. Every person not actively participating in the takeover is risking the lives of every Kindaran in Paplarmi by lengthening our stay. We have Zonasa right where I want them, the time to press the advantage is now.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn


Letter from Julias Talboh   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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Commander,

You have managed to explain why it is important to follow orders. I applaud your explanation, for it is quite clear: if we do not follow orders, then things do not get done. Again, though, you are telling this to a man who has been following orders thoroughly and expeditiously ever since he has taken an estate in Kindara. What you have not done is explain how fining nobles for doing nothing is something that is within yours or anyone's power. Other than that, I have no interest in extending this argument any longer, and I would rather not get reprimanded for causing unnecessary conflict within the realm, so let us call this a one-time complaint. I shall speak no more on the subject, so if you feel the need to continue to defend your words instead of admitting that you may have chosen them very poorly, then I welcome you to do so without any further opposition, though you may find it to be a quite pointless action.

Perhaps it would have been wiser to contain this argument to a private discussion after my first letter. I do so hate to make such a thing a public affair, but I felt the need to defend the rights of my peers. Many apologies.

Regards,

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Letter from Alma Aeterdust   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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Sir Julias, you should not apologize for raising these points. I must say I do share some of your doubts. I wonder at the method one might employ to determine which one of us hasn't been following the order to support the takeover. I also wonder at the time, effort and manpower accomplishing such a feat might entail... wouldn't these resources be better employed to support the takeover?

Commander Magnus, you said you have no patience for grammatical gymnastics. You also said you do not wish to ask for fines, but you will. Is that not just a politician's way of saying that one way or another, you will make us do whatever it is you want us to do? Granted, what you want us to do at present is a worthy task, but please, either speak plainly or stop claiming you always do so.

And when you say you do not wish to ask fines, you truly should mean it, instead of trying to craft a less threatening turn of phrase. Would you rather we support the takeover so that Kindara might prevail in this war and flourish or so that we won't get fined? Such a choice should not be...

My regards,

Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes

Letter from Julias Talboh   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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Worry not, Dame Alma, for my apologies were entirely sarcastic. I am glad to learn that I am not the only one here who understands what it means to have his rights threatened.

Julias Talboh
Knight of Osaliel

Orders from Magnus Himoura   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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Sir Julias,

I will not tolerate insubordination, which is what your words are. Speak in a similar tone again, and you shall face punishment.

Since it is not abundantly clear to you, a very basic concept which is taught to young children of noble houses, fines are a means of discipline. Discipline is in place to ensure that undesirable behavior is not repeated. If undesirable behavior is present in a military situation, people die. If it repeats, those guilty need to be adjusted so that the behavior does not continue, costing more lives, and possibly, the war. This is war, you do what you're told, and live with the consequences if you don't. If you would prefer to moan and complain, I'm sure I can find a knitting circle in Masahakon to assign you to instead of the army. My predecessor died on these fields, died hoping for nothing but a Kindaran victory in this war, and I'll be damned if I don't see to that happening, and the whining of a couple nobles who don't like hearing that they have to follow orders.

I sincerely do not want to fine anyone. I want everyone to do their jobs without me having to bang my head against the wall and deal with your constant bemoaning of good military order. But, if I do not see another way to ensure that good military order is enforced, I will have fines levied. That gold could be put to better use in the pockets of a noble who contributes to the war effort. I also assure you that it is an easy matter to see who supports the takeover or not.

Lords,

Put your vassals in line.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn


Orders from Magnus Himoura   (1 day, 2 hours ago)
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Henceforth,

All nobles of Kindara are required to send me a copy of their report after taking action to support the takeover.


Good day,

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Roleplay from Alma Aeterdust   (1 day, 2 hours ago)
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Alma rolled her eyes upon reading the latest issued orders.

"Why of course, Commander, would you also like a report of my daily visits to the outhouse with that? It would be no bother, not at all a waste of my time, to record the hours of my visits in a ledger, to have my scribe transcribe them every evening and have a runner deliver them to you..."

Roleplay from Magnus Himoura   (1 day, 2 hours ago)
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Magnus had been on rounds, checking on the troops, and so happned to overhear Alma. He set his warhammer on the ground, and cleared his throat.

"No I would not Dame Alma, but it is increasingly apparent you need babysitting. You and one of your men are to report to my tent in 15 minutes. Tell my captain you are present to guard my chamber pot." Magnus growled, and stormed off.

Roleplay from Alma Aeterdust   (1 day, 2 hours ago)
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Alma smirked as the Commander stormed off. "Why of course, it would be my honor..."

She turned to one of the men standing guard at her tent. "Send captain Rein to me, will you? Only the best for the Commander's chamber pot..."

15 minutes later and the Commander's captain didn't even raise an eyebrow when she explained the reason for her presence in the tent. Outstanding discipline, Alma mused to herself. Of course, he wasn't quite so disciplined when Rein carried the Commander's chamber pot out of the tent, Alma following in his wake.

"What are you doing?" the man demanded, trying to block their path.

Alma pointed at the chamber pot then shot a meaningful look at the captain blocking her way. "The Commander did not specify where I should be guarding his chamber pot." The man didn't move, so Alma continued. "He also didn't specify if the pot should be left full or empty. The former appears to be true at present, but that can quickly change."

He did move then.

"Why, thank you. Do tell the Commander his chamber pot will be most comfortable and safe in my tent. I will even write him a report of how the pot spent the night, should he so desire. Oh, and don't forget to give him this," she said, handing a letter to the man. "Let's go, Rein. A sleepless night guarding a treasured chamber pot awaits. Don't you think the Commander knows how to use his resources most wisely?"

Letter from Alma Aeterdust   (1 day, 2 hours ago)
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Commander Magnus,

Where exactly are these nobles who don't like hearing that they have to follow orders? Sir Julias obviously can't be one, I do believe we all got the report not long ago that he did in fact follow your orders and support the takeover. So is it me? It might surprise you to find I sent my men out for a cultural exchange this evening. Of course, you have only my word for it and I guess my word doesn't mean much to you so feel free to fine me, I'm sure my finances can withstand it.

And that is my biggest concern on your proposed method of getting us to heel. You're putting a price, a monetary value, on insubordination. So I guess we can stop asking ourselves what the repercussion of our failing to follow orders will be on the realm and just stick to what those repercussion will mean to our finances... Is that truly how you want us to view orders: something we can do or not do and lose some money? I fail to see how that is effective in getting us to follow orders...

I should point out that not all children are brought up in the same way and different noble house might have different views on methods of discipline. Shocking, I know. I do feel bad for you, you show signs of having had a rather unfortunate childhood.

Still, if you wanted to lead a crowd of senseless creatures that do whatever you want them to do with little to no complains regardless of how you treat them, you should've been a shepherd.

My regards,

Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Phellan on May 28, 2013, 01:03:52 AM

Letter from Magnus Himoura   (1 day ago)
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Dame Alma,

Would you prefer we start flogging nobles? Or should we just ban and execute on the first offense. Fines are worse for repeat offenses, and in the case of continous and blatant disregard for orders, banishment follows. I have never accused either you or Sir Julius of not following orders. Insubordination, yes, but at least you do your damned jobs.

Also, that chamber pot better be sparkling when it is returned to me.

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn


Roleplay from Alma Aeterdust   (23 hours, 57 minutes ago)
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"Hear this, Rein, the Commander wants his chamber pot sparkling when returned. He even announced it to the whole realm."

Alma's captain chuckled. "We should purchase him a gem studded chamber pot. That one would be sure to sparkle."

"Indeed, what a wonderful idea!" Alma laughed soundly, imagining the Commander's face if they returned with a chamber pot studded with various colored gems... She was most tempted to try it, only to see his expression.

"He will get his chamber pot back the same way we came by it," Alma declared when she settled down. "Full of piss. His piss. I find it quite similar to his latest orders that way."


Letter from Alma Aeterdust   (23 hours, 56 minutes ago)
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Commander,

I must point out you are the only one who proposed flogging nobles in our conversation so far. I cannot say I am much impressed by the suggestion or what it spells of your opinion of the nobles under your command. If you had read my missives more carefully you might have figured out that I am of the opinion that fear of punishment is not as empowering a reason to follow orders as our current reasons. And the way you are going about it, I believe you would have us all following orders for fear of punishment or just wishing to avoid it.

If simply speaking out against your methods falls under insubordination in your opinion, so be it. I will not try to change your mind, nor will I act any differently in the future if I feel my concerns are warranted. If you wish for someone to just fall on their backs and take whatever you dish out with a smile on their faces and no protest, troop leaders are not the profession you are seeking. The harlot tents are at the periphery of camp. Though, I should warn you, some moaning might be involved even there.

My regards,

Alma Aeterdust
Dame of Hatdhes

Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust   (23 hours, 55 minutes ago)
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Also, fining people for not logging in is in fact in violation of our inalienable rights, as far as I know. And I can really see this situation going that way, not necessarily, but quite possibly...

Raluca Borozan

Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura   (23 hours, 43 minutes ago)
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Nobody is being fined for IR reasons. Consistently not following orders is ALWAYS a valid reason for punishment. Go to the forum and read similar magistrate cases and you will find it to be so. I'm not asking people to log in every turn, or even every day. I am making a very simple order to click a few times when you do log on. In the future, please avoid throwing around the IR as a gigantic "I do what I want" shield.

Justin Licht

Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust   (23 hours, 21 minutes ago)
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I don't recall throwing around the IR now... I do recall expressly mentioning it might not come to that. I intended it as a caution, not as a stop-whatever-it-is-you're-doing... My apologies if it seemed that way.
Anyway, you might see it as a simple order to click a few times, I see it as an order to click a few more times than I usually do when I log in. There is a difference.

Raluca Borozan

Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura   (23 hours, 11 minutes ago)
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Granted. I have never been a player to care about 100% movement 100% of the time. RL takes precedence. I missed a whole turn yesterday because of a kidney stone (which might explain if I seem irritated, if I do I apologize, its my shredded urinary tract talking, not me). The issue Magnus is taking is that he sees very, very few reports of takeover attempts, and I even talked to one of the devs to how many show up and whatnot, because in my experience I've seen a lot more in a realm with fewer nobles (its actually based on how effective your attempt was, if it was only marginally effective, it doesn't get reported). Pus its memorial day weekend, I don't expect too many people to be on. I've got a parade to march in tomorrow, and a barbecue to follow, I might be on BM during part of it, but I'm an addict :p, and that's the exception not the rule. I'll never push for punishment because someone couldn't log on, but at the same time if someone is just sitting around soaking up tax gold, I'm not going to sit around and not say anything. If there is ever an incident where Magnus pushes for punishment on someone, and they shoot me an OOC note saying "hey I haven't been on because of xyz" I'll let it slide. I've played for ten years, and enjoyed it, and have a number of people I know enjoy playing in realms I'm in, and I do strive to make it fun. But, Magnus is a character, and he's a rather serious type. He is the third generation of his family to war with PoZ and he badly wants to put an end to them.

Justin Licht

Letter from Rosalind Foxglove   (22 hours, 50 minutes ago)
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Kindarans,

I'm pleased to see so many nobles discussing things for a change. It's just a pity that it is an argument that has made everyone more talkative. I would ask everyone to speak with the respect befitting the nobility. The Commander's frustration over the slow progress of the takeover is understandable and he is doing what he feels he needs to do to improve military discipline. His command style is simply different to that of the late Commander Alpha.

I would never suggest that nobles should be mindless, voiceless, pawns. But I hope that if there are disagreements about the phrasing of the Commander's orders they can be discussed in a respectful fashion.

My regards,

Lady Rosalind Foxglove
Grand Justiciar of Kindara
Margravine of Ortedail

Letter from Castor Bernkastel   (22 hours, 46 minutes ago)
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While we  - obviously -  have no right to ignore orders, we do have the right to leave the realm when those that give orders are patronizing and impolite.  Your disgustingly  apparent trips of superiority, your jokes on your nobility having to be treated like children,  and the flush of chamber pot jokes on a public forum, betrays your upbringing. I suggest against advice on raising children,  you might not have been raised as well as your family would like to believe.

Castor Bernkastel
Knight of Batesaor

Out-of-Character from Leofric de Vere   (22 hours, 41 minutes ago)
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I imagine much of this stemmed from the first mention (IC) of Inalienable Rights. Please note that the IR on activity protects players from being punished for not logging on a certain number of times, or not logging on at a certain time. It does not protect you from the consequences of your IC actions or non-actions. It is not a catch-all excuse to allow you to do, or not do, whatever you want whenever you feel like.

From Tom, the Developer of the game:

    The IRs are OOC fun-preservation tools. But you can still assume that the other person is playing the game. "Don't ban for inactivity" does not mean you can never ban anyone for not doing anything. It just means you have to make sure that the reason is not OOC inactivity.

    People seem to think that IC inactivity also is protected, but it isn't.

Eoghan Barry

Letter from Magnus Himoura   (22 hours, 41 minutes ago)
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Sir Castor,

I do believe your upbringing lacked in education about etiquette and hierarchy. In the future, do attempt to correct this. Thank you,

Sir Magnus Himoura
Commander of Kindara
Count of Edairn

Out-of-Character from Farrigan Fuor   (22 hours, 38 minutes ago)
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Let's be clear: in the medieval times this game is based on, nobles and knights could be far more than just fined for not following orders (which is quite plainly the problem here). People aren't following orders. If people don't log in, that's their choice. But if they're purposely making that choice, they should either pause their character or let someone know. Sometimes stuff happens and emergencies come up, and that can be dealt with case-by-case. But people should never drop their character(s) in enemy territory and then just go inactive. That's just plain stupid, when it's not due to an emergency.

I'm really not understanding how two people suddenly made such a big problem out of a commander ICly making a very valid and very enforceable 'threat' to call for fines by the Magistrate if nobles are neglecting their duties. Ignoring and disobeying orders is most certainly not an 'inalienable right', nor is speaking disrespectfully to a superior officer. That could have severe political ramifications, usually more costly than a mere fine.

Tim Graves

Out-of-Character from Farrigan Fuor   (20 hours, 51 minutes ago)
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I am well aware of the potential for collectives of landed nobility to crush their kings, yet that required extensive popular support and/or vast wealth and military power. Three nobles, none of them landed, is far from a collective.  And the petty way they've chosen to express their cause-less dislike is far from noble. The commander made a statement well within his right, and people immediately feel threatened, despite allegedly following orders, which would thus leave them with nothing to fear.

Tim Graves

Out-of-Character from Julias Talboh   (18 hours, 38 minutes ago)
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After sending Julias's first letter, I almost immediately realized that mentioning inalienable rights might have been a mistake. Sure, they're OOC fun-preserving tools, but then I decided that it would be alright and that nobles actually do have rights, anyway. Maybe not "inalienable" ones, but they still had to be treated a certain way by social standards. I stand by that decision. Anyway, regarding the IRs:

    Don't let some of those hardcore players create a problem out of activity. Being allowed to play at whatever activity level you wish also means you should not suffer disadvantages for doing so. If you are fined, banned, threatened or otherwise punished for "inactivity", or for not having been online at any specific time or day, the Titans will be very happy to counter, so please contact them with information.

-BM Wiki
Do note that bit about being threatened. Perhaps somebody should already have been contacted about this whole affair. Personally, I'm very happy with the letters and roleplay that have resulted from it, but if I hear of any characters being fined because they aren't supporting the takeover every single turn (thereby forcing them to login every single turn), then I'm going to contact either the Magistrates or the Titans, and with good reason. We are not talking about characters getting their orders and then saying, "no, I will not support this takeover." We are talking about people who most probably did not log on to do it, and characters are protected from that kind of punishment.

Zach Eubanks

Out-of-Character from Leofric de Vere   (18 hours, 33 minutes ago)
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Something else from the Wiki, Zach, from the Social Contract everyone agreed to when signing up to play:

    One important rule is that you either contact the Titans, or you don't. Do not threaten other players with them. We have issued temporary account locks for people who said things like "do this or I'll bring you up to the Titans".

Eoghan Barry

Out-of-Character from Leofric de Vere   (18 hours, 32 minutes ago)
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*"Social Contract enforcement" page, that should be.

Eoghan Barry

Out-of-Character from Julias Talboh   (18 hours, 31 minutes ago)
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Yeah, I knew I remembered that from somewhere. Guess I have to follow through now. Oh well; it'll be nice to have this issued settled.

Zach Eubanks


Out-of-Character from Alma Aeterdust   (16 hours, 13 minutes ago)
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Since we're quoting the Wiki today (which might be partially my fault), here's a few other tidbits:

    Being able to be inactive at any time, for reasons he doesn't have to disclose, with no prior warning or excuse, is the one holy right of every BattleMaster player. Anyone so much as touching it will feel my unrestrained wrath. --Tom 20:46, 15 May 2006 (CEST)


So, contrary to Tim's opinion earlier today, we can not log in whenever and wherever, without having to explain it or give notice. And the problem I saw here was that while fining a character for not following orders is all fine and good (well, not in Alma's opinion, but I hope I explained that well enough IC), the moment you fine the character of someone who just didn't log in, it stops being all fine and good. So, it doesn't have to come to that, but there's a possibility it might and I just wanted to point it out and give caution.

As for the issue of being disrespectful to a superior officer, that does go both ways you know? I'll grant you I play Alma as confrontational and sometimes a bit crude, but none of us should just be fine with having orders pushed at as in an abrupt and toplofty manner. Here's something from the Government rules of the Wiki:


    Try to guide, not order
        This is a game, not the military, even if it simulates a martial society. Try to guide people. Work with suggestions and help and leave people their autonomy. A strict hierarchy of orders and blind followers is more efficient, yes. It also causes people to lose the fun and leave the game.

    Play within the game background
        You are playing a noble in a medieval feudal society. Your conduct and behaviour should fit to that background, and as a leader you should very much encourage others to follow.
        Most importantly, the world of BattleMaster is not a militaristic one, and blindly following orders does not befit a noble. Engage the other players instead of just passing out orders.


It's from the rules part, not the suggestions...

Raluca Borozan


Out-of-Character from Magnus Himoura   (16 hours, 6 minutes ago)
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Of course. My wording on that original set of orders was poor. I've said it, and I'll say it again: I will never request a fine for anyone for missing a turn, not conducting a TO one turn, etc.

Where I will draw the line is consistent ignoring of orders. In Character inactivity, where you log in, do whatever, and choose not to follow orders, is not an IR. If its clear someone is logging in, and doing stuff, but not following orders they are fair game for punishment. If I ever mistake inactivity for not following orders or anything, just let me know, I'm not out to get people who are less active. Magnus is out to get people who are disobeying orders, and in a wartime scenario, its very appropriate. Is he a bit overbearing? Yea. Is he not the nicest person when angry? Definitely. Does he care a bit too much about winning? Arguable.

I will note however, this past turn that takeover participation has risen sharply.

Justin Licht

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Vellos on May 28, 2013, 05:19:41 AM

Seems pretty open-shut to me.

Stabbity gave an order he shouldn't have, placed an undo burden for "forgiveness," and didn't meet the kind of level of systematic, repeated, obvious violation that was present in the case in Perdan, methinks.

At the same time, he has clarified and it doesn't seem malicious, and nobody was harmed.

Warning and a restatement of the earlier verdict methinks, with an addon about undo burdens.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Chenier on May 28, 2013, 01:01:38 PM

Granted, I've not yet every single one of all of those quoted letters, but in the many I have, he is overly insistent on having that "100% activity 100% of the time" he goes on to claim he's never cared for as a player. He was very insistent in his threats, which could easily be interpreted as specifically targeting the inactive, and to threaten fines to everyone that doesn't give the reports is unreasonable.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Scarlett on May 29, 2013, 04:25:48 PM

As an aside, there ought to be an in-character way to determine which nobles are doing which things during a takeover. Some TO actions announce to the region but others do not. I don't think it's necessary to broadcast to the region but it should be possible to determine who did (approximately) how much if you're the General or marshal.

Or maybe when the TO is complete the game could just do a breakdown of who contributed what. Because I don't care about people logging in every turn but we have had issues in the past where a suspected spy wasn't doing anything for a TO and we were able to figure that out just by comparing the average number of TO reports that were issued for him to other people - but that was easy because it was zero in his case.

It is a gamey issue but unfortunately part of the game is keeping track of who is doing what ... up to a point.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Indirik on May 29, 2013, 04:49:19 PM

Quote from: Scarlett on May 29, 2013, 04:25:48 PM

As an aside, there ought to be an in-character way to determine which nobles are doing which things during a takeover. Some TO actions announce to the region but others do not. I don't think it's necessary to broadcast to the region but it should be possible to determine who did (approximately) how much if you're the General or marshal.

Please open that as a feature request, or on the Dev board for discussion. Active Magistrate's cases are not the place for OT discussion. (I do agree that maybe this is something worthy of a separate discussion.)

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Geronus on June 03, 2013, 05:53:23 PM

The vote is in. We are working on the verdict statement now.

Title: Re: He\'s threatened to have characters fined for inactivity.
Post by: Fury on June 08, 2013, 12:22:06 PM

A verdict has been reached. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict was:

The Magistrates find Justin Licht, player of Magnus Himoura guilty of violating the Inalienable Rights. Playing at your own speed, timing and activity level is an inalienable right. Characters are not to be fined, banned, threatened or otherwise punished for "inactivity". As the player has admitted that the wording of his letter constituted a violation and as this is his first offence, the Magistrates have issued a warning only.

5 Magistrates voted for a warning only.
1 Magistrate voted for a 2-day lock.