BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Atamara => Topic started by: Dante Silverfire on May 31, 2013, 06:12:01 PM
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Title says it all. What do you think needs to change or occur in Atamara AND how would you see it occur?
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A rift in the Empire. How it happens doesn't really matter. Anything that breaks up the power block is good.
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Lots and lots of secessions.
How? Rebellious Dukes! Throw down the yoke and wear the crown that you deserve!
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Inactives need to get booted from power.
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Less "team" mentality.
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Less "team" mentality.
Please explain. Battlemaster is very much a team game.
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Please explain. Battlemaster is very much a team game.
Perhaps he thinks people are playing for the wrong team?
Realm as team = Good
The entire alliance as team = Bad
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Perhaps he thinks people are playing for the wrong team?
Realm as team = Good
The entire alliance as team = Bad
This for sure.
But I also think on the realm level that people, OOCly, are unwilling to consider betraying their realm and see themselves, not as playing a medieval noble with his own ambitions, etc. but just as playing an avatar as part of "Green Team Darka" or "Red Team Cagilans."
Maybe some disagree on this though.
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Inactives need to get booted from power.
I second this. Many rulers on Atamara seems half-inactive. They do just barely enough so they don't lose their crown.
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This for sure.
But I also think on the realm level that people, OOCly, are unwilling to consider betraying their realm and see themselves, not as playing a medieval noble with his own ambitions, etc. but just as playing an avatar as part of "Green Team Darka" or "Red Team Cagilans."
Maybe some disagree on this though.
Well, my character, who is a duke in the CE is quite proud and at times arrogant, and would love nothing more than to be a ruler of his own realm (although I myself do not particularly fancy it). But at the same time, he is also a staunch loyalist. There is really no motivation for a Duke of the empire to secede. Least of all while the war continues.
Ambitions? Being a Duke is almost the highest position possible, with only ruler topping it. And even then, it would be ruler of a duchy (which they have already) as opposed to one of five Dukes, and one of nine council members in one of the most powerful realms in Atamara.
Then, of course, there is the fact that the rulership of said realm and duchy would likely be lost in the ensuing conflict. There is currently no likely action that could get such a divergent reaction, short of banning a Duke (as far as I reckon it).
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I imagine the issue would also be that any Duke that tries to break off would be drowned by the CE alliance unless they had enough support to balance it.
I think some sort of fracture in the Empire would be the most interesting thing for the Atamara, though how it will happen I can't say. Maybe someone needs to get tired of being federated or something.
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I do have to say, if there wasn't a meddling giant alliance looming over everything, the continent looks much more interesting than it did when the war started. You've got the 3 Estons, a broken Barony, a strong Minas Leon and stronger Coria and in the South Carelia split and Caergoth and Suville both grew (one a little more than the other). This is as close to perfect a set-up for interesting local conflicts as it gets (again, ignoring the old realms. :P).
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Well, my character, who is a duke in the CE is quite proud and at times arrogant, and would love nothing more than to be a ruler of his own realm (although I myself do not particularly fancy it). But at the same time, he is also a staunch loyalist. There is really no motivation for a Duke of the empire to secede. Least of all while the war continues.
Ambitions? Being a Duke is almost the highest position possible, with only ruler topping it. And even then, it would be ruler of a duchy (which they have already) as opposed to one of five Dukes, and one of nine council members in one of the most powerful realms in Atamara.
Then, of course, there is the fact that the rulership of said realm and duchy would likely be lost in the ensuing conflict. There is currently no likely action that could get such a divergent reaction, short of banning a Duke (as far as I reckon it).
It sounds to me like the way for the Dukes to get what they want is to make a pact to all secede at once, and form an Imperial Council, which would consist of the dukes themselves, and could continue the running of the Empire without each Duke having to answer to someone else within his own Duchy (a Duchy which would become a sovereign realm unto itself).
This would, of course, screw the Duke of the capital duchy pretty badly, as he'd be the only one left under a separate Ruler. Unless the Duke of the capital city's duchy is, in fact, the ruler; I know little about CE, I'm afraid, or I could propose something more closely tailored ;D
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Well, my character, who is a duke in the CE is quite proud and at times arrogant, and would love nothing more than to be a ruler of his own realm
This directly contradicts this:
There is really no motivation for a Duke of the empire to secede.
No motivation? You just said it up above: "my character ... would love nothing more than to be a ruler of his own realm". Apparently there is something that your character loves more than being a ruler of his own realm: Being a duke in someone else's realm.
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Stick with CE long enough and eventually you'll get a realm to rule. See: Tara, Carelia, Coria, Strombran, etc. I was surprised that no one demanded the crown when we were carving out Lyonesse!
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Stick with CE long enough and eventually you'll get a realm to rule. See: Tara, Carelia, Coria, Strombran, etc. I was surprised that no one demanded the crown when we were carving out Lyonesse!
Thought crossed my mind, but I don't think my character's liked the realm's name to long and sounds like lion.
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Stick with CE long enough and eventually you'll get a realm to rule. See: Tara, Carelia, Coria, Strombran, etc. I was surprised that no one demanded the crown when we were carving out Lyonesse!
And become their subjects for life in exchange? Lol.
Well I certainly took the first ship out and it's worked out great for my character.
At any rate, the only reason I see to stay in the empire is if you always need to be on the winning side. Otherwise, ambition should drive you to greater success.
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The continent seems fine right now. Darka and the Cagilian bloc are engaged in perpetual war, while (as someone mentioned) the fragmented North-East is ripe for conflict as well.
One flaw I think is with the map design. It favours super empires at the far corners, similar to Sirion but not as bad. Super empires are impervious, so they stagnate conflict. I am talking about Darka here. It hasn't actually come to pass, but I think that the CE will find that they cannot defeat Darka, as it is too far away. If the CE cannot defeat Darka, than no one can, so the political situation in the North-West will likely persist similarly as it is now for some time to come. Unless Darka experiences some crazy secession like the Barony did. But that is unlikely, as crazy secessions are very rare, hence why they are known as crazy and not bland or typical.
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That's certainly an interesting interpretation of things. "This whole stagnation mess is Darka's fault! If they would just die, everything would be fine."
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Super empires are impervious, so they stagnate conflict. I am talking about Darka here.
I'm not sure how you can say this with a straight face. The only "super empire" on Atamara is the Cagilan Empire and allies. Darka is just one realm. A powerful realm, I will grant you, but not one that has ever had the political ambition to be a hegemon.
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;D ;D
So, if Darka loses this war... stagnation at Atamara is over?/there has not been stagnation at our corner of map for few years) Right... CE & Tara & Strombran federation has nothing to do with it?
-Jaune
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Mighty Empire of Darka! :D
Come on really? I do understand that many players hate Darka because it never went to war and lost regions and all but as it was previously said, they had no ambitions to take over Atamara :P
Most of the times they helped realms to grow bigger (for ex. Tara and CE) and this is something to actually blame to Darka.
I doubt that Darka breaking up in pieces would change anything in Atamara, it would just destroy North once and for all and make CE even more powerfull as they would find away to sneak in the North as well by creating puppet realms.What then?
In fact even if the war ends and Darka survives unharmed..What then? It is a fact that for things to change the stronger realm must receive beating, this is what always changes things .
I don 't know where this war with Darka will end but it will certainly not change things in Atamara whatever the outcome is.
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The Cagilian alliance has been expanding for some time now, so no one can accuse it of stagnating. It is, in fact, the main source of conflict and change. It's also in a precarious position, as it is composed of many separate realms, the heartland of which is in the centre of the continent. This gives it the potential for much future change as well.
Darka, on the other hand, is gigantic, and in the corner of the continent. They are a dominating presence, with a solid, practically unbreakable foundation, so I do not expect much change to come from them.
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The Cagilian alliance has been expanding for some time now, so no one can accuse it of stagnating. It is, in fact, the main source of conflict and change. It's also in a precarious position, as it is composed of many separate realms, the heartland of which is in the centre of the continent. This gives it the potential for much future change as well.
Darka, on the other hand, is gigantic, and in the corner of the continent. They are a dominating presence, with a solid, practically unbreakable foundation, so I do not expect much change to come from them.
You are wrong, CE got gigantic mostly in this war, they even changed their name to Mighty Cagila Empire , as Empire was not enough :P
Also the reason CE AND Tara became huge, was indeed due to Darka. This is the only reason you can actually blame them for.For helping realms grow, and others die.That was in the past though.
Darka was always huge yes, but they never started personal wars, they were neutral and this is why it remained huge.Ever crossed your mind why they never received beating?Due to the mercenary status of the realm and the fact realms were actually signing contracts non stop with them in the past.
Also don't speak about CE without mentioning Tara.They are practically the same realm.Do the math.
And i am asking you.Let's say Darka breaks in pieces due to the war with CE, which means CE will actually put leaders in the new formed realms and control North as well.What then?
If you accuse them of being a stagnation to the Continent then you must have an idea of what their downfall would create and make Atamara better.Do enlighten us what that would be.
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The Cagilian alliance has been expanding for some time now, so no one can accuse it of stagnating. It is, in fact, the main source of conflict and change.
While their constant expansion is by definition not stagnation, the fact that a massive percentage of Atamara's realms are all allied and cannot make a move without being utterly destroyed means there will be Atamaran stagnation once CE has hit it's limits, which is more or less has at this point. The only thing that can happen now is CE either breaks apart or everyone on Atamara is Imperial and there is nothing left to do.
Just because CE has been expanding for years, doesn't mean it isn't creating stagnation by making it next to impossible to do anything on Atamara that the Empire will not somehow have a hand in or influence.
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You are wrong, CE got gigantic mostly in this war, they even changed their name to Mighty Cagila Empire , as Empire was not enough :P
Also the reason CE AND Tara became huge, was indeed due to Darka. This is the only reason you can actually blame them for.For helping realms grow, and others die.That was in the past though.
Darka was always huge yes, but they never started personal wars, they were neutral and this is why it remained huge.Ever crossed your mind why they never received beating?Due to the mercenary status of the realm and the fact realms were actually signing contracts non stop with them in the past.
Also don't speak about CE without mentioning Tara.They are practically the same realm.Do the math.
And i am asking you.Let's say Darka breaks in pieces due to the war with CE, which means CE will actually put leaders in the new formed realms and control North as well.What then?
If you accuse them of being a stagnation to the Continent then you must have an idea of what their downfall would create and make Atamara better.Do enlighten us what that would be.
I am not saying that Darka will fall; my entire point is that they will most likely never fall. The Cagilian alliance is built on trust, which if fragile, where as Darka's power is built on a geographically favourable position, which will always exist. This makes the CA more susceptible to change than Darka.
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While their constant expansion is by definition not stagnation, the fact that a massive percentage of Atamara's realms are all allied and cannot make a move without being utterly destroyed means there will be Atamaran stagnation once CE has hit it's limits, which is more or less has at this point. The only thing that can happen now is CE either breaks apart or everyone on Atamara is Imperial and there is nothing left to do.
Just because CE has been expanding for years, doesn't mean it isn't creating stagnation by making it next to impossible to do anything on Atamara that the Empire will not somehow have a hand in or influence.
+1
what Ender said about CE's allies ...soooooo true.
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I am not saying that Darka will fall; my entire point is that they will most likely never fall. The Cagilian alliance is built on trust, which if fragile, where as Darka's power is built on a geographically favourable position, which will always exist. This makes the CA more susceptible to change than Darka.
From what you re saying, the only thing that comes out of it is that Darka is the only realm CE cannot destroy as easily as others :P Is that your view of stagnation?
The position?Oh well that will never change whatever banner is running up there. Even if the corner breaks in two realms you can bet they will form a federation and act as one. It is only normal.Because there is no threat from behind :P So what is your point exactly?
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Also take Suville in consideration as well, a perfect geographical positon, the only difference is they are not as huge as Darka is.They could get as powerfull though if they could take over Caergoth for example.
Corners are powerful, but when it comes to a war outside their borders..are they?
In this war Darka received so many limitations that they couldn't make a single difference in this war.Corner has both good things and bad things.
Imagine Darka marching to CE for example,leaving the realm totally unprotected for example.Darka no longer has Eston to cover her front, only Talerium, thus it is vulnarable.
The only reason CE can't make a big difference is the fact Talerium won't let them pass and thus they have to travel many regions to reach us giving us the advantage to prepare ourselves and defend.Wasn't that the exact same thing Darka faced when she has to attack CE and Talerium wouldn't grant them passage?
Yes. Yes it was.
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From the "historic" point of view it would be cool, if CE would win all wars and then fall because of internal problems, like Roman Empire, like it it was selling titles, going on killing sprees, having a horse in the senate etc %)
But for now my character (Piro Killer) hopes to destroy Darka once and for all, heheheh.
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From the "historic" point of view it would be cool, if CE would win all wars and then fall because of internal problems, like Roman Empire, like it it was selling titles, going on killing sprees, having a horse in the senate etc %)
But for now my character (Piro Killer) hopes to destroy Darka once and for all, heheheh.
Darka will receive beating, but destroy it once and for all? lol. but i can understand you would want that ....although i don 't understand why ....
My family and yours are not over. I will avenge that duel! Count on it! XD
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Darka will receive beating, but destroy it once and for all? lol. but i can understand you would want that ....although i don 't understand why ....
My family and yours are not over. I will avenge that duel! Count on it! XD
Well, he was banned from Darka, and since he is an arrogant bastard he wants his former realm dead dead dead!!!
The duel was great, btw, I wasn't hoping to win :P
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Also take Suville in consideration as well, a perfect geographical positon, the only difference is they are not as huge as Darka is.They could get as powerfull though if they could take over Caergoth for example.
Corners are powerful, but when it comes to a war outside their borders..are they?
In this war Darka received so many limitations that they couldn't make a single difference in this war.Corner has both good things and bad things.
Imagine Darka marching to CE for example,leaving the realm totally unprotected for example.Darka no longer has Eston to cover her front, only Talerium, thus it is vulnarable.
The only reason CE can't make a big difference is the fact Talerium won't let them pass and thus they have to travel many regions to reach us giving us the advantage to prepare ourselves and defend.Wasn't that the exact same thing Darka faced when she has to attack CE and Talerium wouldn't grant them passage?
Yes. Yes it was.
Yes, most corner positions are as advantageous as Darka's, which I think is a shame. It's a nice surprise to see situations where the powerful realms are located in the centre of the map, because I know that in the future those realms will probably be torn apart.
If I were a map maker, I would locate the richest and most traversable lands in the centre of the map, while restricting the corners to relative poverty and long travel times. This would balance out the inherent benefits of corner realms with the inherent disabilities of central realms.
No harsh feelings towards Darka, either. It's not that the players or rulers of corner realms are bad, it's just the maps themselves that bother me.
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Well to that you have a point but for a center realm like CE and with the allies she has, i really don't see who will dare to war them and even more who will achieve it.Such realms mostly die from the inside because it is impossible to bring them down.
And at this point i would really understand why a Cagilan Duke wouldn't try and destroy such an Empire by seeking to make a realm of his own when his realm is the most poweful in the Continent and with no threat of that changing.
Not that any Duke would actually survive a secession XD...It is a weird situation and after almost 10 years playing in Atamara i can honestly say i ve never seen anything like this in the Continent :)
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Yes, most corner positions are as advantageous as Darka's, which I think is a shame. It's a nice surprise to see situations where the powerful realms are located in the centre of the map, because I know that in the future those realms will probably be torn apart.
Except that historically, in BattleMaster, the highly influential, imperialistic realms have tended to be in the center. I'm looking particularly at CE and Enweil here.
Darka is, indeed, reasonably well protected—but, as several others have said, they have never tried to build an empire. They just want to hold onto the land that they have, and be hired to fight other realms.
So your assertion doesn't really hold up terribly well in practice.
If I were a map maker, I would locate the richest and most traversable lands in the centre of the map, while restricting the corners to relative poverty and long travel times. This would balance out the inherent benefits of corner realms with the inherent disabilities of central realms.
Well, y'see, part of the problem here is...none of BM's maps were really designed to maximise strategy...or promote certain ways of playing or thinking...or really "designed" much at all. ;D
But you're also forgetting one other very important thing: Soon, sea travel will be coming to Atamara, and then no one will have a completely safe sea border.
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This directly contradicts this:
No motivation? You just said it up above: "my character ... would love nothing more than to be a ruler of his own realm". Apparently there is something that your character loves more than being a ruler of his own realm: Being a duke in someone else's realm.
At the same time, he is not stupid. To try get something that would soon be lost would just be foolish. So I'll give you that there is motivation, just not enough to work for a favourable position in which to secede (which would be unlikely, as well).
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Yes, most corner positions are as advantageous as Darka's, which I think is a shame. It's a nice surprise to see situations where the powerful realms are located in the centre of the map, because I know that in the future those realms will probably be torn apart.
If I were a map maker, I would locate the richest and most traversable lands in the centre of the map, while restricting the corners to relative poverty and long travel times. This would balance out the inherent benefits of corner realms with the inherent disabilities of central realms.
No harsh feelings towards Darka, either. It's not that the players or rulers of corner realms are bad, it's just the maps themselves that bother me.
History does not agree with you. See: Perdan, Caligus, CE, Tara and Enweil as prominent examples of centrally located realms that have been strong for many years and have not yet been torn apart going back to when I started playing five years ago. On the other end of things, see Abington, Ibladesh, Soliferum, Arcachon, etc. as "corner" realms that ate dirt. I won't deny that geography confers advantages, but it is not as determinative as you are making it out to be. Darka could be destroyed if CE was willing to allow Lyonesse to start TOing Darkan regions (and Lyonesse was willing to take them). Also if Talerium stopped protecting them.
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I firmly believe that I'd you are a Duke of MiCE or Tara and you have ambitions beyond simply being Duke that there is no real reason to not pursue it further. Any statement that it is likely that you would quickly fail is simply an excuse. There are plenty of ways to help ensure your success and many clear allies which one can seek out if you took that path. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that CE would rush quickly to destroy any new started realms. A new realm built by secession which properly prepared itself would not only likely survive but also end up as a very quick ally of the old CE.
In my opinion I just think many Dukes of CE are just too happy with their realm wide extortion of taxes of their nobility far above a reasonable level to want to even try to change things. Much better to simply sit on ones gold mine and continueto keep ones nobles in poverty and busy with useless wars.
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I won't deny that geography confers advantages, but it is not as determinative as you are making it out to be. Darka could be destroyed if CE was willing to allow Lyonesse to start TOing Darkan regions (and Lyonesse was willing to take them). Also if Talerium stopped protecting them.
I agree with this. Any realm, no matter their advantages, can be destroyed or weakened. It's just a matter of getting enough resources together to stomp on someone. Darka is handily surviving and winning because they seem to be real solid defenders, have a capable military, and the CE just doesn't seem to care enough to actually try hard enough to stop them. With the resources at CE's disposal things could be going differently.
Of course, that's all an outsider's perspective, but still.
Also, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that CE would rush quickly to destroy any new started realms. A new realm built by secession which properly prepared itself would not only likely survive but also end up as a very quick ally of the old CE.
I'd be interested in seeing that happen though at the same time the results are pointless. If the seceded realm becomes an ally of CE and, presumably, an Imperial member, then it's the exact same thing as being a part of CE, except you have a fancy crown on your head. Which, hey, having a fancy crown is nice, but it still means you aren't doing much differently than you would've been as an influential Duke. I'd like to see a successful secession make some waves down there and carve out an independent entity.
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Yes, most corner positions are as advantageous as Darka's, which I think is a shame.
Corner positions have quite a few disadvantages. Most of their advantages are disadvantages as well. Hard to get in? It's hard to get out, too. Few people that can get there to fight them? Few people they can get out to fight, too.
It's a nice surprise to see situations where the powerful realms are located in the centre of the map, because I know that in the future those realms will probably be torn apart.
EC has always been dominated by centrally located realms. It has changed from realm to ream, over time, but a few of them: Perdan, Caligus, Fontan, SoA, Westmoor.... All strong, centrally located realms. Especially Perdan and Fontan.
FEI has had several strong central realms, including Arcaea and Cathay. (Although Arcaea was so strong they expanded into the corner realm they wiped out.) Greater Aenilia used to be quite strong, but not quite dominating.
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In my opinion I just think many Dukes of CE are just too happy with their realm wide extortion of taxes of their nobility far above a reasonable level to want to even try to change things.
Realm-wide? Obviously there is something that I am not taking advantage of...and there I thought that I could only tax my duchy.
Much better to simply sit on ones gold mine and continue to keep ones nobles in poverty and busy with useless wars.
Yes, because keeping them in poverty ensures that we will lose any wars that we fight ::)
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They just want to hold onto the land that they have, and be hired to fight other realms.
Remember Massillion!
Never Forget.
Some of us are still bitter. ;)
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Realm-wide? Obviously there is something that I am not taking advantage of...and there I thought that I could only tax my duchy.
Yes, because keeping them in poverty ensures that we will lose any wars that we fight ::)
So your duchy tax rate isn't 25% like the rest of CE? My duchy in Coria runs a 5-10% duchy tax depending upon situation. I far prefer 5% because it gives more gold to the knights of the duchy.
Btw it is very possible to provide nobles only the minimum amount of gold needed to support their unit and make them reliant on the dukes for handouts. That is what CE does. On the other hand, a realm like Coria floods their nobles with gold and I believe has the most gold production per noble on Atamara. Does this gold get held by the dukes or the nobles? The nobles.
Honestly it amazes me that CE's nobles simply don't rise up due to this injustice while their allies are treated much better. Want a reason why an enterprising duke would survive a ssecession? He can actually treat his nobles well and show the rest what they were missing.
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So your duchy tax rate isn't 25% like the rest of CE? My duchy in Coria runs a 5-10% duchy tax depending upon situation. I far prefer 5% because it gives more gold to the knights of the duchy.
Indeed it is, but only because one day every other duke suddenly put their taxes up, and obviously there were IC reasons to follow along. Food is sold for 40 gold per 100 bushels, however, which I suspect is the highest price in the whole of Atamara. Does it balance? Probably not, but it's something.
Strictly speaking, the taxes that the Duke collects are taken directly from the Lord's tax income, which does not directly affect how much gold the Knights get. Obviously, if the Lords decide that they must make up the loss, then they would perhaps tax their Knights more, but then the Lords would have unhappy Knights. Thus changing the duchy tax from 10% to 5% would have zero effect on the Knights unless the Lords/Ladies of the regions passed on the changes.
Btw it is very possible to provide nobles only the minimum amount of gold needed to support their unit and make them reliant on the dukes for handouts. That is what CE does. On the other hand, a realm like Coria floods their nobles with gold and I believe has the most gold production per noble on Atamara. Does this gold get held by the dukes or the nobles? The nobles.
Just two different ways of operating, in the end. There are a lot of rich lands in the CE, so people don't go destitute.
Honestly it amazes me that CE's nobles simply don't rise up due to this injustice while their allies are treated much better. Want a reason why an enterprising duke would survive a ssecession? He can actually treat his nobles well and show the rest what they were missing.
Truthfully, I don't remember seeing it being mentioned by anyone.
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Remember Massillion!
Never Forget.
Some of us are still bitter. ;)
Too bad some of you are the laughing stock of Atamara soon to board a ship out of the continent :D
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With the current production in the region and the efficiency of your estate, assuming everything stays this way, you can expect a weekly tax income of about 197 gold, of which you will have to give 10 gold to the region lord, leaving you with 187 gold of personal income.
No reason to complain ;D
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Too bad some of you are the laughing stock of Atamara soon to board a ship out of the continent :D
Why have you been so hostile to me?
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Why have you been so hostile to me?
I hate Kerwin because he is a backstabbing jerk.
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I hate Kerwin because he is a backstabbing jerk.
Oh... right... ?
Sorry he lost the war? He totally did so on purpose to screw you guys!
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Oh... right... ?
Sorry he lost the war? He totally did so on purpose to screw you guys!
Oh come on. Merlin promised you Massilion and you let Coria live. You could always help with their destruction and expand to their land but NO, you wanted Massilion so bad since you think Darka betrayed you and all that crap. Things would be a lot different now.
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Oh come on. Merlin promised you Massilion and you let Coria live. You could always help with their destruction and expand to their land but NO, you wanted Massilion so bad since you think Darka betrayed you and all that crap. Things would be a lot different now.
Actually... no. No. That never happened. Merlin certainly did not promise Kerwin anything. Not land, at least.
I don't know who told you that, but they lied to you. Ask Silverfire yourself.
You know who did want to attack Darka and get Massillion back? Arturius and the Rieleston folks. Kerwin refused and that is one of the contributing reasons to their secession. They thought Kerwin was "soft on Darka."
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Do they remember that the war started after certain influential members of Eston claimed relations to a peasant and demanded compensation for his death?
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I don't think that commoner stuff had anything to do with the war, really.
Plans were leaked to Darka that the Duke of Massillion was promoting a plan to have Eston attack Darka.
But srsly, Skiarxon, you need to lay off Perth. Whatever his character did was done by his character, as an IC/IG action. There's no reason to take that as free license to continuously insult and harass the player.
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Regarding what Atamara needs (I've only skimmed this thread): imperial breakup is the key. The question is, HOW do we break up the CE bloc?
There are basically three routes for this to happen:
1. Spoils-squabbling
2. Leader-balancing
3. Internal dissent
1. Spoils-squabbling
In this scenario, CE bloc breakup will occur when Darka is soundly defeated and forced to accept humiliating terms. CE will maybe have one or two more cleanup wars and police actions after Darka, but they will basically have conquered or defeated all of Atamara. The presumption here is that CE and allies are actually highly ambitious. Tara fulfilled its ambitions by expanding eastwards. CE fulfilled its ambitions crushing Carelia and Falasan, founding puppet realms in Strombran and Coria. Coria itself has expanded northwards, though its home-grown ambitions have already been squashed for now. Strombran seems unlikely to be able to muster up any serious political ambitions for a while. Talerium will make gains at Darka's expense. But after Darka, what? Expand Coria into Minas Leon? Sure, maybe, but Coria is the least reliable of CE's allies, while Minas Leon is Tara-alligned, while its other neighbor, Rieleston, is CE-aligned. So where will Coria be expanded? Eston, the already-defeated enemy? Maybe.
The premise here is that CE's allies will find that increasingly costly long-range wars requiring larger and larger amounts of time and soldiers and coordination will yield diminishing spoils to be shared around. And they will set to squabbling when there are no enemies left to fight. Territorial squabbles, for example: Strombran will demand allied help to expand eastwards to be an equal partner with the others. Or maybe Coria will want to be regarded as an equal as well. These kinds of squabbles will be kept on the backburner as long as meaningful spoils stand to be gained: but when the last enemy is killed, will all the hyper-militarized armies go home and hang up their shields, or will they start looking at each other?
If we buy this theory of conflict-creation (inter-alliance conflict will occur when no more enemies exist to fight), then Darka's defeat/surrender would be a good prelude to a more dynamic Atamara. Thus altruistic Darkans should lay down and die for the sake of Atamara's bored player proletariat.
2. Leader-balancing
But maybe the CE alliance hasn't done a good job of apportioning spoils. Corian attempts at independence seem a symptom of this argument: CE has misunderstood the desires of its puppets to be equals. Thus if the war with Darka fizzles, Talerium may suddenly find itself very much a junior partner: and they kept some semblance of peace with Darka. Or maybe CE peripheral states like Strombran, Minas Leon, Rieleston, and Coria will begin to assert themselves, coalesce to try and "balance the leader" (meaning CE, or possibly CE/Tara).
This argument has its main strength in Silverfire's Phoenix Empire. If the Phoenix Empire were regarded as not just a peculiarity of Silverfire, but rather a symptom of a larger desire by peripheral states to balance against a hegemonic and interventionist leader, then we might think this argument is strong.
If leader-balancing is the main source of conflict, then the way to make a more dynamic Atamara would be an alliance switch away from CE to Darka or some other third entity. The north seems paralyzed in local affairs; I know nothing about the south. To me the lynchpin here is Talerium. A Talerian betrayal of CE could unleash a similar betrayal by Coria, and opportunistic strikes by northern realms like Lyonesse and Eston.
If we buy this theory of conflict-creation (dynamic wars will return when smaller states collaborate to balance out and challenge the influence of super-states), then a Talerian betrayal of CE would be a good prelude to a more dynamic Atamara. Thus altruistic Talerians should hurl themselves on the altar of CE's army, committing suicide in the name of inspiring other peripheral states to turn on CE/Tara (or maybe inspiring Tara itself to fight CE).
3. Internal dissent
The above theories focus on relations between states. But as we all know, BM is not a perfectly state-centric system. There are multiple levels of cooperation and conflict and motivation. Maybe real dynamic conflict is truly grassroots, and filters upwards. In this theory, conflict will originate if there are ambitious people with real power in an environment with heterogenous interests, values, desires, expectations, or beliefs. Thus the real "stability" of CE/Tara is not a geopolitical one, but a symptom of the lack of meaningful religious or cultural conflict, and a powerful sense of state-centric military solidarity managed via guilds.
Thus conflict occurs when somebody with different interests or values gets power and becomes ambitious: even if they're in the same realm. I'm thinking of Magna Serpaensism here. CE's extermination campaign against that religion seems indicative of CE's intuitive grasp of the need for religio-cultural uniformity. An emphasis on collaborative military planning and shared institutions would be another symptom, as would the distribution of ranking offices reliably to long-term mentees and loyal supporters via an extended patronage network.
So we will have stagnation no matter what the political landscape looks like as long as Atamara has so huge a mass of nonpolitical religions, effective military-planning guilds, longevity-based political systems, and team-playing mentality.
If we buy this theory of conflict-creation (dynamic wars will return when serious conflicts of values and interests exist within the CE bloc) suggests that altruistic CE-bloc nobles need to begin founding sub-alliance guilds for specific rather than general purposes, altruistic religions around Atamara need to work harder to exert political influence beyond mere national concern, greater risks should be taken in political appointments by all players, and players should work harder to build personal patronage networks.
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I'm not sure which theory I buy most of all, but any of them seem plausible.
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I'm not sure which theory I buy most of all, but any of them seem plausible.
I only buy the first. Internal dissent is virtually non-existent in CE and Tara, the only two realms for which it might matter. Both realms are up to their eyeballs in sheeple. Just look at the dukes of CE; they have each, on average, been in CE for 1958 days, a figure which is considerably brought down by the very recent ascension of Susan Maxwell, who only has 789 days in realm. If you replace her with the previous duke of Skalk, Celestial Fury, you get an average of 2180 days for each Duke. Even at the lower figure, that's over five RL years in realm for each Duke. I'll let you lay what the odds would be on one of them rocking the boat. Apart from that there hasn't been so much as a single disagreement in the entire time I've been present (a mere 138 days), at least not one that was shared realm-wide. Tara is similar from the outside. It's harder to count the exact number of days since I'm not in the realm, but approximately speaking, the realm's Dukes have also been in realm for a full five RL years on average.
As far as leader balancing, well, Coria is the only client state of CE that actually has any notable ambitions, thanks to Silverfire. Talerium is a terrible example to use. Aldarion Tezokian has been the ruler there virtually constantly since 2003, and it should be evident that he has virtually no ambitions for Talerium at all at this point. Strombran might, but I don't know anything about them or their goals, if any. Some of the newer realms could stir the pot, but I don't know exactly how committed either CE or Tara are to their newest clients, if that is in fact what they prove to be. If push comes to shove, I'm not certain where the chips would fall. The most likely thing to happen is simple stagnation. My guess is, none of the above will really come to pass, but rather than CE and friends will keep busy by interfering in the squabbles between the newest realms as they jockey for position and favor. Heck, it could be another year or more before the various pieces of Eston come back together, let alone whatever happens to the pieces of BoM, Carelia, and whatever might be left of Darka after the war, and I'm certain CE and Tara will involve themselves in the outcomes to shape it toward whichever pawns they favor most.
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I don't think that commoner stuff had anything to do with the war, really.
Plans were leaked to Darka that the Duke of Massillion was promoting a plan to have Eston attack Darka.
But srsly, Skiarxon, you need to lay off Perth. Whatever his character did was done by his character, as an IC/IG action. There's no reason to take that as free license to continuously insult and harass the player.
I don't have anything with Perth OOG.
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You know who did want to attack Darka and get Massillion back? Arturius and the Rieleston folks. Kerwin refused and that is one of the contributing reasons to their secession. They thought Kerwin was "soft on Darka."
Do you really think that no one is going to correct you on statements like this? Arturius and his supporters pressured Kerwin to get tough with Darka regarding their stance on Talerium. Kerwin is the one who suggested attacking Darka in a suicide move that was shot down by Arturius before Elroy sent the information to his fellow members of the Darkanism faith.
Kerwin was a poor diplomat and weak, arrogant leader...that is why we Rieleston folks got tired of Eston...not some OOC conspiracy.
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Do you really think that no one is going to correct you on statements like this? Arturius and his supporters pressured Kerwin to get tough with Darka regarding their stance on Talerium. Kerwin is the one who suggested attacking Darka in a suicide move that was shot down by Arturius before Elroy sent the information to his fellow members of the Darkanism faith.
Kerwin was a poor diplomat and weak, arrogant leader...that is why we Rieleston folks got tired of Eston...not some OOC conspiracy.
Now this is fun to know. At least this way i know i wasn't wrong for Kerwin. I also deeply dislike him as a character and always thought he wanted to see Darka going down while he was still King. whoa really.I just hope he packs his stuff and gets the hell out of Darka XD
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Good ol' confirmation bias.
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I think Vellos has a pretty good handle on this. I feel like two of the three possibilities are already working to some degree.
It may hearten you to know that the scientists in Coria are currently working on our future... With your donation of 10 active nobles, we will give you a Limited Edition Phoenix Empire banner from our previous project and progress toward a new Atamara!
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Coria might be an interesting place to be, but as a player I would feel guilty joining them while they were still fighting Darka. :-[ :'(
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I've always thought about playing in Darka, but I think Coria sounds pretty interesting based on what I see about it on the forums. I'm planning on keeping myself at one character fairly soon though since I don't always have the time to dedicate that I'd like and a new character would be a big time investment.
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Do you really think that no one is going to correct you on statements like this? Arturius and his supporters pressured Kerwin to get tough with Darka regarding their stance on Talerium. Kerwin is the one who suggested attacking Darka in a suicide move that was shot down by Arturius before Elroy sent the information to his fellow members of the Darkanism faith.
Kerwin was a poor diplomat and weak, arrogant leader...that is why we Rieleston folks got tired of Eston...not some OOC conspiracy.
That simply isn't true at all. You like to come on here and act arrogant and insult me and my characters and then disappear whenever I ask you to clarify or challenge the crap you spew out. Literally I think the only posts you have on this forum are ones where you try to attack me and call me a liar. It needs to stop.
Kerwin was not a poor diplomat. He essentially put together the northern alliance and even brought in Carelia--not an easy task. He wasn't weak either. He commanded quite a lot of power. The only reason the Rieleston secession even succeeded was because they did it in the waning days of the Kingdom and while it was being invaded by the Cagilans/Tarans. Otherwise it would've been squashed.
But, yes, he was arrogant! That is how I always played him. He was a King, after all. Kale is the opposite, much more level headed and calm.
Arturius INSISTED many times that we violate Darka's trust and move through through regions to attack Talerium without Darka's permission. Kerwin refused to let him do so. Arturius even took troops and tried to do so anyways a couple of times. Luka was constantly reprimanding him for it.
Arturius always held a grudge against Kerwin for NOT trying to retake Massillion and for allying with them. Yeah, Kerwin would have liked to one day see Massillion returned, but it was never something that was considered within the context of the war against the Cagilans. It was an idea for a post-Cagilan dominated Atamara.
Kerwin was close with Kostaja, they were friends and they butted heads sometimes. Mostly because Kerwin spent the better part of two years trying to convince Kostaja every single day to turn on Talerium, and he wouldn't. But Kerwin never sought to attack Darka. Eston would've lost that fight anyways.
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Yes, Kerwin and KK had love/hate relationship... there was times when i thought "screw this Cagilan war, i will side with Tallies to make Kerwin shut up about attacking Talerium!"
Relations with Talerium, are propably not as close as they were with Eston, but they were easier. Talerium is much more "stable" and you can trust them, same was not with Kerwin and Eston, things happened fast without too much consulting... and even when consulting, our sayings were ignored...
But i guess RL cultures strike here as well, i have noticed on this game how diffrent people see treaties. Everything needs to be put in paper, or it will be abused, contracts are left with loopholes etc. Some rulers are just easier to talk and agree and even disagree. Example Ottar, we are close to hatred with our realms, but still i have no doubts that if i would get cease fire with Ottar that it would be kept by him at any cost... but if same would happen example with Duke Silvefire... it would not surprice me at all to see their armies march on our lands at next campaign with some awesome excuse.
-jaune
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but if same would happen example with Duke Silvefire... it would not surprice me at all to see their armies march on our lands at next campaign with some awesome excuse.
-jaune
Oh cmon. That is a terribly inaccurate statement. VERY special circumstances arose to give you that impression and is far from indicative of my character's trustworthiness. Not to mention, you could at least have the common courtesy to acknowledge that you were informed of the change prior to things proceeding differently. Instead of an agreement simply being broken. Also, I'd like to point out that the simple idea of a "cease fire" is defined as something which can be ended at a moments notice. There isn't peace, there just isn't fighting going on.
Back on topic: I think that Vellos has pointed out the three possible ways that we could become more dynamic. However, I believe Idea #3 is absolutely impossible. CE/Tara is made up of Sheeple. If it wasn't, they would have already broken up. I know because at various points I've tried to cause it to happen. (including when I was a member of CE itself). I know how their governments work and there is no way that such could work successfully long term without literally ANY dissent unless it was made up of sheeple.
Only #1 or #2 has a remote change of making the continent more dynamic. Each of course has problems. The first has the problem that it requires Darka to actually die. Something which I see as increasingly unlikely. The second has the problem that it requires highly ambitious nobles to not only seek that ambition but to have a chance of succeeding. I don't think anyone who is aware of Atamara's recent history would contest that my character is probably the single most ambitious noble in the CE bloc, and he was soundly squashed from this last attempts of seeking ambitious changes. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I don't think #2 would occur to change things if Merlin can't even pull it off. Which leaves #1 as the only situation which could change things, and even then is unlikely and will take some time.
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Oh cmon. That is a terribly inaccurate statement. VERY special circumstances arose to give you that impression and is far from indicative of my character's trustworthiness. Not to mention, you could at least have the common courtesy to acknowledge that you were informed of the change prior to things proceeding differently. Instead of an agreement simply being broken. Also, I'd like to point out that the simple idea of a "cease fire" is defined as something which can be ended at a moments notice. There isn't peace, there just isn't fighting going on.
There's your awesome excuse jaune: "It was only a ceasefire. And besides, I told you about it."
Despite the claims of how your character acts, the general impression among the characters I played with on AT (and not just those in Darka) was that Merlin was very sneaky/lawyerish, and would be happy to finagle a technicality to get around a treaty. I will grant hat some of this almost certainly came from a general impression of Coria after events like the "family visit". It rubs off on people that are associated with realms that do things like that.
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Despite the claims of how your character acts, the general impression among the characters I played with on AT (and not just those in Darka) was that Merlin was very sneaky/lawyerish, and would be happy to finagle a technicality to get around a treaty. I will grant hat some of this almost certainly came from a general impression of Coria after events like the "family visit". It rubs off on people that are associated with realms that do things like that.
In all honesty, I think that any sort of reputation or impression that Coria is given or receives from the larger and more established realms is solely due to them trying to find ways to stop Coria from making things happen and make Atamara a more dynamic place. It's just more excuses to stagnate things imo. Coria is as far as I am aware, the realm doing the most recently and for a long time to change the status quo of the continent. Forgive me if that somehow gives us a bad rep.
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Coria might be an interesting place to be, but as a player I would feel guilty joining them while they were still pretending to fighting Darka. :-[ :'(
I mean, come on, what we've thrown in has been pathetic (not that it's intentional).
In other news, Coria's had a lot of interesting turnover recently. We seem to keep attracting new folks and losing some of the old stagnators. With some luck, things might just get interesting again...
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I mean, come on, what we've thrown in has been pathetic (not that it's intentional).
In other news, Coria's had a lot of interesting turnover recently. We seem to keep attracting new folks and losing some of the old stagnators. With some luck, things might just get interesting again...
Part of me wants to bring a character to Coria when Kerwin's gone, but I feel like I should give it some time so that 1) I don't play him the same as Kerwin and 2) people don't treat/see him the same as Kerwin.
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Atamara needs one thing to shake things up: Pancakes.
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Perth,
You realize that in defending Kerwin you just contradicted your own statement about Arturius and Rieleston wanting to attack Darka, don't you? Wanting to move through their lands and being upset over the loss of Massillion (considering the history of the cost of getting that duchy back after the secession by the Black Duke) is entirely different than wanting to attack Darka...which was a suggestion made by Kerwin to the realm council at one point in the war.
As far as "it needs to stop," I totally agree with you.
I do mostly post to correct the blatant misinformation you spread about Rieleston and the players of that realm...which you seem to do every chance you get. You stop, and I will stop...pretty simple and far from arrogant. The issues in game don't bother me one bit...I just see you and a couple of other players post insults or incorrect statements (like this issue to try and advance an IC agenda such as getting Darka to distrust Rieleston in an OOC forum) about certain realms, players, or religions, and when I have free moments in my life, I respond...when I don't have time, I don't feel compelled to satisfy someone else with a response that clearly won't be met with reason anyway.
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Part of me wants to bring a character to Coria when Kerwin's gone, but I feel like I should give it some time so that 1) I don't play him the same as Kerwin and 2) people don't treat/see him the same as Kerwin.
Not that I have a personal stake in this or anything but:
1. You do realize that pretty much everyone is okay with you making a new character on Atamara and he/she won't be persecuted right? I mean that was pretty much explicitly understood as the likely turnout when Kerwin signed the treaty.
2. If you don't want him to be played the same as Kerwin then don't. It's pretty simple as far as I know. Granted, if he's made in Coria he pretty much already has good friends looking out for him, unless he just goes completely against his father's legacy. (Which would be stupid as far as starting in Coria goes).
3. You should definitely join. Remember Diplomacy.
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Perth,
You realize that in defending Kerwin you just contradicted your own statement about Arturius and Rieleston wanting to attack Darka, don't you? Wanting to move through their lands and being upset over the loss of Massillion (considering the history of the cost of getting that duchy back after the secession by the Black Duke) is entirely different than wanting to attack Darka...which was a suggestion made by Kerwin to the realm council at one point in the war.
No. That was one example of Arturius' continuous push to escalate and fray relations with Darka. Another would be when he declared he would not allow any Darkan army to march through his duchy to attack Coria. Arturius wanted war with Darka, plain and simple. He didn't like them and didn't trust them.
Elroy was not on the realm council, so anything you think you know about what Kerwin said there has to be second hand information and second hand information from people to disliked Kerwin, at that. I honestly have no recollection of Kerwin ever proposing to attack Darka... that just doesn't make sense. Kerwin wanted to defeat the Cagilans more than anything else and it would have been impossible to do without Darka. Eston and Darka were the Northern Alliance.
I do mostly post to correct the blatant misinformation you spread about Rieleston and the players of that realm...which you seem to do every chance you get. You stop, and I will stop...pretty simple and far from arrogant. The issues in game don't bother me one bit...I just see you and a couple of other players post insults or incorrect statements (like this issue to try and advance an IC agenda such as getting Darka to distrust Rieleston in an OOC forum) about certain realms, players, or religions, and when I have free moments in my life, I respond...when I don't have time, I don't feel compelled to satisfy someone else with a response that clearly won't be met with reason anyway.
I don't spread "misinformation." You don't correct anything with reasonable arguments, you just come on here and say "Perth is a liar anything he says is wrong and how I say it happened, happened." It's insulting and just plain inflammatory. You seem to have this obsession that I'm out to get all the people in Rieleston--I'm not. Yes, I think they play the game in a terribly OOC, old boys club sort of way and I express my opinion about that. But I am in no way out to get them or turn anyone against them on the forums. You're the one who's sole purpose on this forum seems to be to color me in a bad light.
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Not that I have a personal stake in this or anything but:
1. You do realize that pretty much everyone is okay with you making a new character on Atamara and he/she won't be persecuted right? I mean that was pretty much explicitly understood as the likely turnout when Kerwin signed the treaty.
2. If you don't want him to be played the same as Kerwin then don't. It's pretty simple as far as I know. Granted, if he's made in Coria he pretty much already has good friends looking out for him, unless he just goes completely against his father's legacy. (Which would be stupid as far as starting in Coria goes).
3. You should definitely join. Remember Diplomacy.
1. I know. But it's lame. I hate when people just replace a dead/exlied character with a new 2.0 version. Plus there seems to be a lot of hate for Kerwin around the island and people will still be prejudiced against the Perth name for a while.
2. I would try very hard not to, but without some time to simmer it can be hard to separate the two characters. I need a little time to let myself "forget" the plethora of IC info and connections that Kerwin has so that the new character can have a "fresh slate."
3. I probably will at some point. Maybe I'll wait until Darka falls/wins.
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1. I know. But it's lame. I hate when people just replace a dead/exlied character with a new 2.0 version. Plus there seems to be a lot of hate for Kerwin around the island and people will still be prejudiced against the Perth name for a while.
2. I would try very hard not to, but without some time to simmer it can be hard to separate the two characters. I need a little time to let myself "forget" the plethora of IC info and connections that Kerwin has so that the new character can have a "fresh slate."
3. I probably will at some point. Maybe I'll wait until Darka falls/wins.
As far as #1, I already know the important players are fine with a new character. Most of them are after Kerwin specifically.
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1. I know. But it's lame. I hate when people just replace a dead/exlied character with a new 2.0 version. Plus there seems to be a lot of hate for Kerwin around the island and people will still be prejudiced against the Perth name for a while.
2. I would try very hard not to, but without some time to simmer it can be hard to separate the two characters. I need a little time to let myself "forget" the plethora of IC info and connections that Kerwin has so that the new character can have a "fresh slate."
3. I probably will at some point. Maybe I'll wait until Darka falls/wins.
I think you're missing something. You can pass on knowledge to new characters (especially children) but you can change their personalities, life goals, wishes, weaknesses, virtues. There is nothing wrong with a Perth coming to Atamara, and having had his personality warped perhaps due to his family having been "disgraced" or something on AT. Could be a character seeking redemption. Or perhaps a character who feels dejected and worthless.
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EC has always been dominated by centrally located realms. It has changed from realm to ream, over time, but a few of them: Perdan, Caligus, Fontan, SoA, Westmoor.... All strong, centrally located realms. Especially Perdan and Fontan.
... EC never really controlled by central realms beside that one time with Fontan when it was huge, but then us greek bickered and couldn't make up our minds and let the whole thing come crashing down.
Also, what AT really need to happen is for everyone posting to actually to do more in game. NA and SA failed so far in getting war to destroy central alliance... blame yourselves, but don't stop...
Hi Lavagina, Ghostdragon still around?
Maybe too much peace should come back into play.
Before I forget so your saying Sea Travel hmm so your making a Pirate sub class! (wishful thinking I know or is it)
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Hi Lavagina, Ghostdragon still around?
Nope :( i miss the old days >.< Not even Lavigna is around... i m playing a new family now :)
Ps. Btw....Lavagina... i loled , dunno if it was intentional...i loled either way XD
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Well obviously either I can't spell or I'm mm how do you say mm deprived of a certain aspect of life recently
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Freud would be proud of your honesty. ;)
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I think you're missing something. You can pass on knowledge to new characters (especially children) but you can change their personalities, life goals, wishes, weaknesses, virtues. There is nothing wrong with a Perth coming to Atamara, and having had his personality warped perhaps due to his family having been "disgraced" or something on AT. Could be a character seeking redemption. Or perhaps a character who feels dejected and worthless.
You're right.
I think I'm just going to wait until the current conflict is concluded though and come back hoping for some fresh ideas and happenings. This war has worn me out.
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I just come here to say..Hello!
I am tired of repeating myself over and over why the Empire is strong, and this time i won't say more than this:
Everyone in Atamara, Loves the Empire
Yup i put all special format on it on purpose, so everyone understand, for any more explanation look for my posts where i tirelessly explained over and over with details.
Peace!
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I just come here to say..Hello!
I am tired of repeating myself over and over why the Empire is strong, and this time i won't say more than this:
Everyone in Atamara, Loves the Empire
Yup i put all special format on it on purpose, so everyone understand, for any more explanation look for my posts where i tirelessly explained over and over with details.
Peace!
It has a line through it though. So, does that mean the statement isnt, in fact, true? ;)
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It has a line through it though. So, does that mean the statement isnt, in fact, true? ;)
Personally, I read it like this:
Everyone in Atamara,
Loves the Empire
or, with correct formatting and some minor edits:
[Dear] Everyone in Atamara,
<insert everything Sonya has been saying>
Loves,
-The Empire
I know I sometimes get love letters from the Empire.
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I'm pretty sure the answer to this question was: Merlin as a King.
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Well obviously either I can't spell or I'm mm how do you say mm deprived of a certain aspect of life recently
Wow, just wow. Lavagina is the single greatest thing I have read today.
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Ha not gonna be able to live that one down am I