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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Tiridia on June 13, 2013, 07:59:52 PM
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Please let me know what you think of this idea. It is just a sketch.
- Temples allowed only in rural regions
- Worship of ancestors
- Player characters may become saints after death -> a guild is formed
- Saints may be elevated to deities when enough legend is built
- Food is sacred, and starvation a sign of ancestral anger
More of this later...
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Sounds like it could be interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to limit the placement of temples. Seems odd, as you're going to lose out on a lot of potential followers without temples in cities.
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Please let me know what you think of this idea. It is just a sketch.
- Temples allowed only in rural regions
- Worship of ancestors
- Player characters may become saints after death -> a guild is formed
- Saints may be elevated to deities when enough legend is built
- Food is sacred, and starvation a sign of ancestral anger
More of this later...
I could see the flow of the seasons having a special spiritual role here too.
Cool idea.
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Temples in rural regions are a pain to finance and maintain...
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But aside from the rural limitation, this can be a cool thing.
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Where are you planning on founding it?
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Temples in rural regions are a pain to finance and maintain...
Yeah, this would be a really hard religion to get going because of that.
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Thank you all for your replies. Here is more sketching:
The feature of restricting the temples to rural regions is a risky one, that I grant. It is one of those things where you tied your hand behind your back to make the fight more challenging. I believe limitations are necessary in order to carve out some personality for a religion. But it is a gain if at the end it makes people interested in the religion. The feature also aims at a situation where the rural lands are more or less dominated with the ancestral worship, but the cities and towns have one or another faith in them. The AFA could not care less what the peasants in the cities worship, since they are the ones consuming the food and not the ones who help bring about the gift of the ancestors.
The feature might also result in a deeper divide between cities and rural lands, if the rural lords would tend to have one faith and the urban lords another. AFA would also see it more honorable to tend a rural region than a city, which might swim against the main current of the game. The faith would strive towards total control of all the rural lands on the continent, a goal which would probably never be achieved, but those are the best kind of goals anyway. Since food is a holy matter to the faith and an absolutely vital one to the realms as well, this would be where the faith might gain some leverage even if it would never control the cities. On the other hand, the faith would see it as a sacred duty of the rural lords to tend their regions well as to gain more of the blessing of the ancestors, so the realms would also benefit from this dedication. Hopefully interesting stories would be cooked up from these tensions.
Apart from the focus on food and the respect for the ancestors, AFA would have no other imposed values. The values the characters followed would be based on the saint or deity of their choosing, all conveniently located within the same faith. If there were a lack of a certain type of saint, all it takes to wait for someone to die and then begin to emphasize those character traits of the deceased noble that the player finds interesting and try to start a cult around that. Of course those interpretations might be contested, especially by those who actually knew the deceased, so conflicts such as this one would be commonplace, and potential for schisms would be readily available. AFA would leave it up to the lords to choose which sects to support, and would only insist the temples in rural lands to be left unharmed.
Another feature would be the rise of saints to deities. An order of a certain saint would after a time begin to accumulate legends, both of what the saint did when alive on the earth and what he has done in the otherworld. The otherworld can be seen in dreams, and a member of a sect may introduce a dream he has had to the other followers and if it sticks, it becomes more or less codified lore. A cunning banker saint might, for example, trick another saint (or even a deity!) by making an appealing bargain that the other party later regrets. When enough otherworldly lore is gained (and a sufficient number of followers), the saint is raised to a deity (and is given a new name). Then the leader of that particular cult is given elder status in AFA.
The main point here is to create a faith with very little forced dogma. Instead AFA would provide the framework into which the players could create all sorts of sects and cults, try to gain a following and then hammer their ideologies to the pantheon of the faith. Theology would become more or less a shouting match and what is valuable, just and right would be chosen by the participants, not the elders (the exception being some sort of ancestral reverence and food matters).
Where are you planning on founding it?
My character is located in Luria, so there. On the other hand, Niselur might be in a need of a new religion just about these times, so if someone over there finds this concept useful, it could be founded there as well by someone else. I would not mind.
The main point to keep in mind with this concept is that it is not a power trip for the founder, as he is more or less impartial with the saints and deities and has more of an administrative and perhaps a mediating role. I myself would found it on the spot if I did not already have a character concept that I would really like to try out. Now I am undecided. I might do it if there is definite interest to it.
I could see the flow of the seasons having a special spiritual role here too.
Yes, the cycle of seasons is important to the harvest, so specific seasons would focus on different themes. Winter, for example, would be the time of the wrath of the ancestors (risk of starvation, other inconveniences) and a time for reflections of the self and communities.
Temples in rural regions are a pain to finance and maintain...
I really like this self-limiting feature, so I would be very reluctant to let it go. It cuts straight to the core of the faith, with a touch of "live and let live" attitude. It is a feature that makes absolutely no sense in the powergamer's world, so those types would shy away from it. But if it is a feature that makes the faith utterly ineffective for gaining control of even the rural lands, then it must be reconsidered. A watered down version could exclude the cities and still get some of the tensions mentioned. By the way, badlands and mountains are also left out.
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The feature of restricting the temples to rural regions is a risky one, that I grant. It is one of those things where you tied your hand behind your back to make the fight more challenging. I believe limitations are necessary in order to carve out some personality for a religion. But it is a gain if at the end it makes people interested in the religion.
I think you make a good point about creating personality and uniqueness for the religion and I think this idea certainly has merit. But a someone who has founded a religion and been a part of many others, believe me when I say you aren't doing yourself any favors by putting purposeful limitations on it if you want it to succeed at all. Getting a religion to become successful is extremely difficult in Battlemaster.
That being said, I do think some of your ideas, even the limiting ones, have already succeeded in at least perking a few people's interests here and would certainly succeed in giving it some personality/uniqueness.
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Perth,
In your experience, do you think it more important to gain noble followers or convert peasants? My working theory is that if you manage to gain noble followers, the rest will somehow fall into place over time.
Besides the prophet (mostly a silent figure), I think I would need one arch priest to lead the thing and a second to him, which would make three elder priests and a somewhat stable and collapse safe start. Three priests would begin to make a difference in peasant conversions as well. The actual structure of ranks in the faith would be very simple. A seeker for an aspirant rank and a follower for those members who have signed up with at least one sect (order for some saint). Anyone leading a sect would be promoted to elder status, and that's all there is to it.
Who's in?
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So, the ball's rolling and I am committed to it all the way. I grieve over the other character concept, but this was just too sweet to pass by. Now please help me out with a proper name for the faith. And, by the way, it shall not be located in Luria after all, quite the _opposite_ actually.
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Perth,
In your experience, do you think it more important to gain noble followers or convert peasants? My working theory is that if you manage to gain noble followers, the rest will somehow fall into place over time.
Besides the prophet (mostly a silent figure), I think I would need one arch priest to lead the thing and a second to him, which would make three elder priests and a somewhat stable and collapse safe start. Three priests would begin to make a difference in peasant conversions as well. The actual structure of ranks in the faith would be very simple. A seeker for an aspirant rank and a follower for those members who have signed up with at least one sect (order for some saint). Anyone leading a sect would be promoted to elder status, and that's all there is to it.
Who's in?
Noble's no doubt.
However, it's more about ACTIVE Nobles who CARE than anything else. Which is the hard part.
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To get the faith to work out you will need something to work for: a goal-it would be interesting if there were some sort of goal required to become a deity-like for instance trials or something like that. Like for instance you would have to gather certain unique items.
Founding a religion on Dwilight is doubly difficult because of SA-a lot of people have committed to it. I find the people in the south in SA tend be hardcore, while in Niselur it is a little more toned back.
You are going to probably have to work the Bloodstars into it somehow, or accept it existence-at least at first, like the Cult of the Bloodmoon does, otherwise it is going to take a hard break in character to accept your religion.
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However, it's more about ACTIVE Nobles who CARE than anything else. Which is the hard part.
Thus the core concept of the faith. The main body of the religion is more like an apparatus onto which you can hang whatever you wish to decorate it with, as far as values and virtues are considered. Central to the concept is that a new guy can walk in, start a sect about someone he considers a saint, get others inspired and run pretty much straight to the elder ranks. It is designed to be quite organic in the sense that it is very easy for the creative minds to begin to influence it. Those are the nobles/players that I am hoping to attract, when it is eventually founded. It is not too far fetched to describe it as a tool that enables non-priest characters to start their own religions (cults).
Naturally it will get more complicated once there are a few strong sects that disagree with one another on some major points. Intra-faith conflict is essential to a religion to avoid stagnation in the long term. Raising to power and influence shall be encouraged if only you can inspire the others to follow you. And what better way of gaining inspiration is to draw it on a deceased character that many loved and even more at least knew him? There is already a story to behind each new sect, and who would not like it if their former character was remembered and respected long since his death?
In fact, this is the only faith that I know of that enables your character to become a deity. Who can top that? ;)
To get the faith to work out you will need something to work for: a goal-it would be interesting if there were some sort of goal required to become a deity-like for instance trials or something like that. Like for instance you would have to gather certain unique items.
[...]
You are going to probably have to work the Bloodstars into it somehow, or accept it existence-at least at first, like the Cult of the Bloodmoon does, otherwise it is going to take a hard break in character to accept your religion.
Yes, there will be plenty of goals to work for, though most of them will be generated together with others members. It will absolutely certainly not be very much directed from the top, but rather focus on serving the membership and enabling them to build their stories. The kind of characters that will in the long run become deities will probably be the ones that spark the most interest and who could serve as archetypes of this or that characteristic. What they sought in life will likely be what the sects will seek as well. So, to increase your chances to become a deity a you should lead an interesting and an unforgettable life.
As for the stargazers, there is no problem in acknowledging the worth of following the stars, but the question that Mirabelle will be asking in the future is that who would you rather go for an advice: something high up in the skies or something who has been here on this land before, who has an active interest in your success, who knows your family and who is part of your history? The stars might work for you, but if you have never been in contact with your ancestors, how do you know they do not have something valuable to teach you?
It is going to be quite tolerant and understanding. Besides, the ancestors only want the rural lands anyway. ;)
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For anyone caring to help me out a little, I have two requests:
1) What should I name the faith? Anything I can think of seems either silly or is just arbitrary.
2) Calling the deceased characters "Saints" has a resemblance of... well, you know, a certain large RL church. I've thought of replacements such as "Legends", but the guilds would then look something like "the Order of Legendary Kepler". Perhaps it does not matter. Maybe they could be named "Ancestral Order of Kepler" but I am not sure whether the character limit allows that or not. "Order of St. Kepler" works with the abbreviation, but "Order of Kepler" would be even simpler. Or "Keplerian Order" or some other mutation of the character's name. Any thoughts on this? English is not my native language, so I do not always know what works and what is just silly.
Thank you for any ideas you might want to share.
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Divines?
"The Order of Divine Kepler"
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Though not all BattleMaster faiths abide by it, I believe its generally recommended to have religions end in -ism. The text that religion names are used in fit best this way.
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Keplerism... 8)
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Sanguis Agrarianism.
The blood is in the earth! Not the Stars!
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Sanguis Agrarianism.
The blood is in the earth! Not the Stars!
Omg is Verdis Elementum!
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Well, I have thought of "Agrarianism", which would be pretty much about what it is, but that is more like it's scientific definition. Or I could even go for "Ancestral Agrarianism", which would make us brethren of Alcoholics Anonymous, which by the looks of it might be something Niselur is in a grave need of.
The difficulty here is that there are no names for the deities yet. How do you name something that is essentially a framework? Throw time into the mix?
"Chronoism?"
Something could be squeezed out of latin, but I do not know the language all that well. I suppose I should be glad I am nowhere close to actually founding it yet.
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I would say Terranism... except we have the realm of Terran.
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You could base the name off of the celtic Tuatha Dé Danann, gods and goddess who were once men and ascended into gods. You could say Tuathaism, Deism, Dánaism(celtic gods).
I hope you don't mind my massive walls of text... maybe you will see where this is going.
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Deism has its own meaning already.
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I would say Terranism... except we have the realm of Terran.
This.
Just to make !@#$ confusing.
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This.
Just to make !@#$ confusing.
'Is Terranism the original faith of the Terrans?'
'No, that would be Triunism. Terran lead a religious war against Terranism.'
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Hehe, "Terranism" would indeed be special in the way Vita described. Many matters in religions and their squabbles do tend to look rather silly for the outside world. But I think I shall pass this one.
Still, thank you all for the input. Instead of confusing or arbitrary, I am beginning to lean towards "Agrarianism" due to its simplicity and its very descriptive nature. If the faith is about food, rural lands and the harvests, this would immediately give a hint to those who just see its name. But I am afraid it leads to images of the noble followers toiling the land in their sacred rituals...
I would also like to avoid a name that has to be abbreviated, as I quite dislike abbreviations in IC letters. With who words it can hardly be avoided, unless, of course, the first part would begin with "S".
Oh well, there's still plenty of time to think of a name. It does look like there are quite a few steps to be taken and stairs to climb until it even has a chance of being officially founded, let alone well established.
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Just remember that you cannot run a successful religion on RP alone. It may last for a short while, but it will eventually dry up and blow away as people lose interest. In order for a religion to maintain people's interests in the long run, it has to get involved somehow in politics and control. That's pretty much the hook you need to get people interested, and keep them interested. If you just due the whole "We're not interested in politics" thing, you'll end up a bland, pointless bunch of disinterested members.
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Indirik,
Thank you for the advice. I suppose any new faith has to appear quite harmless to begin with, when it yet does not have very much support. But as far as politics and influence is considered, let me give you a hint: "temples exclusively on rural regions".
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Indirik,
Thank you for the advice. I suppose any new faith has to appear quite harmless to begin with, when it yet does not have very much support. But as far as politics and influence is considered, let me give you a hint: "temples exclusively on rural regions".
Not to be harsh, but I predict such a faith being allowed more as a curiosity than anything else. People may join the faith because of its unique flavor and distinctiveness, but that alone is usually not enough to motivate people into actually contributing to the faith, instead of just signing up and building a temple or two.
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Chenier,
So, you are saying that giving the rural lords some backing up regarding the question of how they should deal with their food is not sufficient? I have been under the impression that at times the question of food holds much importance in diplomacy and politics. If a starvation is a sign of disrespect towards ones ancestors, then what if the rural lords let some margrave starve his city, declare him a sinner and refuse to sell him?
I have a feeling I am missing something here. What have the successful religions done to gain their success?
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In order for a religion to maintain people's interests in the long run, it has to get involved somehow in politics and control.
Most importantly, along with politics and control, the religion must find a way to span multiple realms. A religion can have all the power and political control in a single realm, but that hardly makes it a fun or "successful" religion. The religions that are the sole "State Religions" of a realm, and no where else, are rarely fun or anything like. They are usually just a hollow shell being used to keep foreign realms from using the few offensive religion based actions against them and vice-versa.
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Chenier,
So, you are saying that giving the rural lords some backing up regarding the question of how they should deal with their food is not sufficient? I have been under the impression that at times the question of food holds much importance in diplomacy and politics. If a starvation is a sign of disrespect towards ones ancestors, then what if the rural lords let some margrave starve his city, declare him a sinner and refuse to sell him?
I have a feeling I am missing something here. What have the successful religions done to gain their success?
Cities are the centres of wealth, and will be even more so after the economy rebalance. No realm will accept that rural lords intentionally starve the cities.
Rurals as the centre of power is simply counter-nature. Rural realms are weak, and so are rural lords.
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So, you are saying that giving the rural lords some backing up regarding the question of how they should deal with their food is not sufficient? I have been under the impression that at times the question of food holds much importance in diplomacy and politics.
Make sure you have the judge on your side, or your attempts to control the food trade will result in quick fines/bans from the realm. Realms are touchy about their food supply (and rightly so).
If a starvation is a sign of disrespect towards ones ancestors, then what if the rural lords let some margrave starve his city, declare him a sinner and refuse to sell him?
Shouldn't you persecute the rural lords for causing the starvation? Seems to me that if you declare starvation to be the the wrath of your ancestors, then sitting on a pile of food while people starve would be the most dire of sins imaginable. Besides, refusing to sell the city food, and then declaring the margrave to be a sinner for letting his people starve? That's like holding some guy's head underwater, and then saying it's his own fault for drowning.
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That's like holding some guy's head underwater, and then saying it's his own fault for drowning.
Or throwing a women in the fire, and claiming she's a witch if she survives.
In other words, perfectly SMA.
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Cities are the centres of wealth, and will be even more so after the economy rebalance. No realm will accept that rural lords intentionally starve the cities.
Rurals as the centre of power is simply counter-nature. Rural realms are weak, and so are rural lords.
Well, this I agree with. I suppose you could think of this religion as mixing one part of excellent roleplaying template and another part of a sort of a farmer's union (or Grange!). Of course cities are strong, but it would seem too easy to go for them. I want to try something new here, like trying to find a niche and grow from there. If the faith truly managed to gain a significant portion of the rurals, it might begin to have some sway with the matters. The fact that the rural lords are weak is what interests me in this concept. Alone they are weak, but what if they could be united? What if, collectively, they could press for a higher share of the taxes in the cities, and would then be able to field decent units for themselves and their knights?
Make sure you have the judge on your side, or your attempts to control the food trade will result in quick fines/bans from the realm. Realms are touchy about their food supply (and rightly so).
Shouldn't you persecute the rural lords for causing the starvation? Seems to me that if you declare starvation to be the the wrath of your ancestors, then sitting on a pile of food while people starve would be the most dire of sins imaginable. Besides, refusing to sell the city food, and then declaring the margrave to be a sinner for letting his people starve? That's like holding some guy's head underwater, and then saying it's his own fault for drowning.
I am not much concerned with what is right and what is wrong. Religious dogma rarely makes sense to the outsiders while for those inside, all sorts of odd argumentative errors are graciously accepted. Circular logic only needs to make sense to the believers, and for the outsider to understand its implications. Besides, I do not think it would be anything too black and white, like trying to gain direct control of the food supplies. It would likely be much more subtle. Of course it would be in the best interest of the margrave to be a member to secure ample food of flow in good price, but amicable relations to the faith would probably suffice. Basically it could be something like "be nice to us and let us preach and convert the rurals, and all will be well with the food".
Or throwing a women in the fire, and claiming she's a witch if she survives.
In other words, perfectly SMA.
Exactly. It does not need to make sense. Someone letting his region or his realm starve has clearly not been respecting his ancestors, so the decision to not sell food to him was a right choice, because clearly he was unworthy. It's circular reasoning, thus a fail safe argument for a medieval religion.
Not fair, of course not, but all I am trying to do here is to add some interesting tensions and create potential for conflict. And to have some fun and share it with the rest of you.
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By the way, the idea is that you could start a religious order commemorating any deceased noble - not necessarily that of your family, realm or even the same continent. Any memorable personality from the past could be thus put into good use, on your own terms.
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As much as I like your ideas, calling yourself Prophet when you do not have a religion, or lordship to found a religion, and no prophecies to boot, seems arrogant at best. You should let others call you that, rather than call yourself that, as it will rankel people. With the Lightbringer, I called him that, and even in his RP's others called him that and finally the King called him that.
Niselur may be not a Theocracy anymore, but everyone follows the Bloodstars right now and calling yourself that without earning may make people not take you seriously. It's like calling yourself lord before you are a lord.
Another question: why prophet? I don't see anywhere in this where prophecy comes into play. Oracle, Sage, Seer, or Channeler may be more appropriate.
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Another question: why prophet? I don't see anywhere in this where prophecy comes into play. Oracle, Sage, Seer, or Channeler may be more appropriate.
The Cultivator.
The Harvester.
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My point of things not making sense has nothing to do with SMA. I get the whole "if she burns, she's not a witch" thing. Rather, what will happen is that your religion will turn off players. You will be accused of being corrupt, power-hungry, tyrannical, etc., and you will alienate those who are the most powerful people in the realm. The realm government won't like you, because cities are so important for the realm. Destabilizing and/or destroying a city will piss off too many powerful people, especially if they are in a foreign realm from the church's power base.
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You will be accused of being corrupt, power-hungry, tyrannical, etc.,
Sounds like a perfect recipe for a successful character on Dwilight!! ;)
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My point of things not making sense has nothing to do with SMA. I get the whole "if she burns, she's not a witch" thing. Rather, what will happen is that your religion will turn off players. You will be accused of being corrupt, power-hungry, tyrannical, etc., and you will alienate those who are the most powerful people in the realm. The realm government won't like you, because cities are so important for the realm. Destabilizing and/or destroying a city will piss off too many powerful people, especially if they are in a foreign realm from the church's power base.
Well, that's a possibility. I wonder if it could be fed the other way around, that the religion will serve the realm because it is focused on food. The whole point is not to starve the cities, but to feed them, though of course if the faithful were to be persecuted, such food security might become a problem. Still, that's also a veiled threat, so I wonder whether it is viable.
I am beginning to wonder whether the concept needs more work still. There's some value to it but it would be a pity to have a half-arsed attempt and flunk it due to some feature that makes it impossible to succeed.
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Maybe if there was a "magic number" that food should not be paid less for, like 37 gold (is that a prime? whatever, it's an example). Make it a sin for a region lord to sell food for less than 37 gold per 100 bushels, and for a city lord to pay less than 37 gold per 100 bushels.
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One thing should have been obvious to me but apparently it was not. To even get the whole thing going one needs some momentum besides a few encouraging comments on the forums. Mirabelle is a mere stranger in Niselur with no IG history. She would first need to build some reputa tion and credibility.
If Niselur needs a new religion, they are perfectly capable of making it themselves. I do not seem to have the time available for the effort required. Thanks to all who contributed.
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Maybe if there was a "magic number" that food should not be paid less for, like 37 gold (is that a prime? whatever, it's an example). Make it a sin for a region lord to sell food for less than 37 gold per 100 bushels, and for a city lord to pay less than 37 gold per 100 bushels.
Something like this would be sure to attract a certain someone's wrath. ;)
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Sounds like a perfect recipe for a successful character on Dwilight!! ;)
For a character sure, but not for a religion.
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One thing should have been obvious to me but apparently it was not. To even get the whole thing going one needs some momentum besides a few encouraging comments on the forums. Mirabelle is a mere stranger in Niselur with no IG history. She would first need to build some reputation and credibility.
If Niselur needs a new religion, they are perfectly capable of making it themselves. I do not seem to have the time available for the effort required. Thanks to all who contributed.
I really hope you continue on this but its of course your decision. Two things, you don't need that much credibility as you could simply request a lordship to found a religion, I have seen it done before IIRC, and I doubt Niselur could just come up with a new religion if it needed one. Your ideas might not be perfect, but they are good and I hope you continue on with this.
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I really hope you continue on this but its of course your decision. Two things, you don't need that much credibility as you could simply request a lordship to found a religion, I have seen it done before IIRC, and I doubt Niselur could just come up with a new religion if it needed one. Your ideas might not be perfect, but they are good and I hope you continue on with this.
It's IRL mostly that gets on the way. Right now I just do not have the time to spare on promoting it as it should be. Founding something like this in such circumstances might turn out to be a lonely road for quite some while. Still, who knows, when and if the situation changes, I might return to the concept. Right now though all I have time to do is pretty much sitting at the academy and training. Not very interactive and exciting, I know, but it is at least manageable.
If anyone feels like founding a new religion and wants to use this concept or bits and pieces of it, it's quite fine with me. Heck, if it were to happen in Luria, I would have my character be the first humble follower and do what I could to support the head honcho.
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For what its worth, the AP religion just died, so several lurian nobles and lords are without faith. I do prefer luria religiously plural...
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For what its worth, the AP religion just died, so several lurian nobles and lords are without faith. I do prefer luria religiously plural...
What did AP die out anyway? Wasn't it doing really well at one point in time?
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A few conversions to SA for political reasons, coupled with suddenly every single elder of the faith migrating/auto-pausing at once.
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A few conversions to SA for political reasons, coupled with suddenly every single elder of the faith migrating/auto-pausing at once.
Doesn't the game auto-promote someone in that case? Pretty sure we have/had AP lords in D'Hara.
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Doesn't the game auto-promote someone in that case? Pretty sure we have/had AP lords in D'Hara.
Doesn't help if none of them are (or quickly become) priests.
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Doesn't help if none of them are (or quickly become) priests.
So... is the faith dead, or dying?
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So... is the faith dead, or dying?
Dead. Its last temple in Askileon just closed down, and Alanna got a several-hundred-gold windfall from it.
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Dead. Its last temple in Askileon just closed down, and Alanna got a several-hundred-gold windfall from it.
Oh well, one less hollow religion, I guess. VE may very well be next, wasn't really anyone dedicated to it anymore when I left it, and the destruction of Caerwyn, followed by the Long Winter in D'Hara, basically killed it off, spiralling the church into excruciating deficits as there were no peasants left to finance all of the temples, and no priests left to reconvert all of the new peasants popping in to replace the starved ones.
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Oh well, one less hollow religion, I guess. VE may very well be next, wasn't really anyone dedicated to it anymore when I left it, and the destruction of Caerwyn, followed by the Long Winter in D'Hara, basically killed it off, spiralling the church into excruciating deficits as there were no peasants left to finance all of the temples, and no priests left to reconvert all of the new peasants popping in to replace the starved ones.
What does that leave? Triunism is as small and inactive as it ever has been, though it's been that war for years.
Besides Cult of Bloodman.... what's left?
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It seems that very few religions can survive the departure of the founder. I suppose if Torpius were still around (when the heck did he leave?) AP would be alive, not only because there would be an elder priest, but because he seemed to take the religion roleplay quite seriously. The founder of SA is still around, isn't he? Is there an example of a faith in Dwilight that has survived losing its prophet?
Thus, to steer the discussion back to the topic a little, one feature of this ancestral faith is that it can mold into anything that the more active members make it. Sometimes I wonder if it might be so that once you found a faith, you put a lot of yourself into it and the others never feel like it is truly theirs. With the organic nature of the ancestral religion it could recreate itself time after time.
I am beginning to wonder if the concept might benefit from scrapping the agrarian part and keeping just the essential core. The name would be simply "Ancestralism" or something similar. The sects themselves would make up the taboos and similar things such as the emphasis of rural regions and so forth. There might be a sect that did all this "rural region union" stuff, while other sects would choose other things to focus on. The sects themselves, as I see it now, should really be secret societies, which would help adding in some mystery to the religion.
Essential to the sects would be to choose one divine noble to follow and pick one or two political goals as well at least one taboo that was somehow represented by game mechanics. Nobody could be certain to know who else belonged to this or that sect, but all full members had to belong to at least one. You could be a member of more, of course, but it would make a challenging life with all the taboos and different goals to work towards.
This would make Ancestralism a template of whatever aspect one desired, with often competing interests with the members. They would all share the basic value of ancestral worship, but other than that, it could become anything the players wanted. The political intrigue and such would also be there, but more behind the scenes with the secret societies. If you wanted to learn what everyone else were up to, you would need to join all the sects and advance there according to their individual paths.
This is the core of the religion. It appears to me sufficient for the purpose and pruned of any unnecessary burdens. Any thoughts?
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VE is still alive last I saw. There's at least one elder priest who is too stubborn to quit.
I've been contemplating taking my character on Dwilight and going down a religious route with him, but that can't really happen until certain things resolve themselves first. I've been toying with a religion that caters to both adventurers and nobility, sort of a dualistic nature with callbacks to AP in parts.
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VE is still alive last I saw. There's at least one elder priest who is too stubborn to quit.
I've been contemplating taking my character on Dwilight and going down a religious route with him, but that can't really happen until certain things resolve themselves first. I've been toying with a religion that caters to both adventurers and nobility, sort of a dualistic nature with callbacks to AP in parts.
It's still alive, but hollow. It's a walking corpse. I don't think that priest (Baal, right?) has done much for the faith for a while. Machiavel was basically carrying the church for years, making promotions, sending a few messages now and then, overlooking temple finances. But the Long Winter made it a huge financial drain, and it just wasn't worth putting even more effort into something that was obviously never going to rise again.
But I would say that VE survived and grew considerably after the departure of its founder. It's later, as others left, and as Caerwyn fell and SA became more important in D'Hara, and that Machiavel had too many other political responsibilities, that it started really degrading.
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Founding a new religion looks more and more like an effort which would greatly benefit from many friends all across the place - of connections, reputation, status - none of which my current character nor family has. Rafaello the brash young knight might found it one day, but to be fair to him he is only seventeen and his friends can be counted with fingers of one badly mutilated hand. There is a story there building, gradually, and perhaps there will be a time when founding the faith will be done together with a large and influential group of nobles, with a few notable characters willing to become priests right from the start.
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Founding a new religion looks more and more like an effort which would greatly benefit from many friends all across the place - of connections, reputation, status - none of which my current character nor family has. Rafaello the brash young knight might found it one day, but to be fair to him he is only seventeen and his friends can be counted with fingers of one badly mutilated hand. There is a story there building, gradually, and perhaps there will be a time when founding the faith will be done together with a large and influential group of nobles, with a few notable characters willing to become priests right from the start.
If I may make a suggestion: the best way to learn how to play the religion game well and learn the needs of a religion is to join a successful one and become a priest. I'm obviously partial to SA, and it's a fantastic place to see what the religion game can be: but there are other religions too where you can explore what works, and what doesn't, it religions.
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Founding a new religion looks more and more like an effort which would greatly benefit from many friends all across the place - of connections, reputation, status - none of which my current character nor family has. Rafaello the brash young knight might found it one day, but to be fair to him he is only seventeen and his friends can be counted with fingers of one badly mutilated hand. There is a story there building, gradually, and perhaps there will be a time when founding the faith will be done together with a large and influential group of nobles, with a few notable characters willing to become priests right from the start.
Look at some of the RP from the start of SA, some of them are in family's histories. Brance Indrick's rp's with the prophet are pretty enjoyable and are on his family's wiki.
Joining the Order of Aristocrats may be the thing you need as you could found a house called the House of the Ancestors and gather people willing to help you in this endeavor, and then through your house's power put in the temples that you need.
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It seems that very few religions can survive the departure of the founder. I suppose if Torpius were still around (when the heck did he leave?) AP would be alive, not only because there would be an elder priest, but because he seemed to take the religion roleplay quite seriously. The founder of SA is still around, isn't he? Is there an example of a faith in Dwilight that has survived losing its prophet?
Mathurin disappeared for a good long time (he paused the character I believe), but he announced his intentions ahead of time and it was roleplayed that he was going into religious seclusion. He eventually came back, obviously, but he was out for quite a while, and SA did just fine without him. SA had some serious momentum on its own by that point though.
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Mathurin disappeared for a good long time (he paused the character I believe), but he announced his intentions ahead of time and it was roleplayed that he was going into religious seclusion. He eventually came back, obviously, but he was out for quite a while, and SA did just fine without him. SA had some serious momentum on its own by that point though.
Lucky for him, back then, pausing didn't mean removing all guild ranks... No way to regain the top ranks otherwise.
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Lucky for him, back then, pausing didn't mean removing all guild ranks... No way to regain the top ranks otherwise.
Sure there is.
For the guild founder, if he returns, he can reclaim his founder's position.
For anyone else, as long as they still have friends at the top of the guild, they can be promoted back to whatever rank they used to hold.
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This could be a very interesting new religion and now's the perfect time to find some havens for it.
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Wow Arundel is back :o I wonder what kind of interesting things he will do this time around.
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is Kihalin's injury getting to you? cause I am pretty sure this is the wrong topic :P...
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What happend to this idea? Seemed interesting to me!