BattleMaster Community

BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on June 25, 2013, 12:28:20 AM

Title: Placeholder Duke
Post by: BattleMaster Server on June 25, 2013, 12:28:20 AM
Summary:Placeholder Duke
Violation:"Nobles holding placeholder positions are prohibited."
World:East Continent
Complainer:Simon Willems (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=2260)
About:Glenn Ascough (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=3491)

Full Complaint Text:
Appointment takes place after the previous duke of Xavax, Dread Fantom, is wounded;

   


      Royal paused   (7 days, 18 hours ago)

      Dread Fantom, Royal of Armonía, Duke of Xavax, Margrave of Xavax has been absent from his position(s) for too long a time. His title(s) have been recognized as unoccupied and are available for someone else now (to be appointed or elected, as appropriate).

      His unit, the Muerte Rapida has been partly converted into a militia unit.

      Xavax is now without a lord.


      Request from Autrey Bendix   (7 days, 17 hours ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (23 recipients)

      Armonians,


      Xavax needs a Duke quickly. Please send me your application within the next 24 hours.


      Lady Autrey Bendix

      Queen of Armonía

      Royal of Armonía

      Duchess of Itorunt

      Margravine of Itorunt


      A New Duke   (5 days, 23 hours ago)

      message to all nobles of Armonía

      Lady Autrey Bendix, Queen of Armonía, Royal of Armonía, Duchess of Itorunt, Margravine of Itorunt, Vice-Marshal of Armonian Combat Elite has appointed Artimus Bathgate to the vacant duke position of Xavax.

      [protest options]


      A New Lord   (5 days, 23 hours ago)

      message to all nobles of Armonía




   


      Artimus Bathgate, Duke of Xavax, Count of Enubec has appointed Dread to the vacant lordship position in Xavax.

      Â 




   Then this happens;



   


      Duke Resigns   (15 minutes ago)

      message to all nobles of Armonía

      Artimus Bathgate has resigned as duke of Xavax.


      Roleplay from Artimus Bathgate   (13 minutes ago)

      Message sent to everyone in your realm (23 recipients)

      Nobles, today I announce to you that I have stepped down as Duke of Xavax so as to allow Duke Dread to return to his rightful status.


      All hail Duke Dread!



Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Fleugs on June 25, 2013, 12:31:00 AM
A cleaned up version of the report;

Appointment takes place after the previous duke of Xavax, Dread Fantom, is wounded;

   
Quote
Royal paused   (7 days, 18 hours ago)
    Dread Fantom, Royal of Armonía, Duke of Xavax, Margrave of Xavax has been absent from his position(s) for too long a time. His title(s) have been recognized as unoccupied and are available    for someone else now (to be appointed or elected, as appropriate).
    His unit, the Muerte Rapida has been partly converted into a militia unit.
    Xavax is now without a lord.

   
Quote
Request from Autrey Bendix   (7 days, 17 hours ago)
    Message sent to everyone in your realm (23 recipients)
    Armonians,

    Xavax needs a Duke quickly. Please send me your application within the next 24 hours.

    Lady Autrey Bendix
    Queen of Armonía
    Royal of Armonía
    Duchess of Itorunt
    Margravine of Itorunt

Quote
    A New Duke   (5 days, 23 hours ago)
    message to all nobles of Armonía
    Lady Autrey Bendix, Queen of Armonía, Royal of Armonía, Duchess of Itorunt, Margravine of Itorunt, Vice-Marshal of Armonian Combat Elite has appointed Artimus Bathgate to the vacant duke position of Xavax.
    [protest options]

   
Quote
A New Lord   (5 days, 23 hours ago)
    message to all nobles of Armonía

    Artimus Bathgate, Duke of Xavax, Count of Enubec has appointed Dread to the vacant lordship position in Xavax.

Then this happens;
Quote
    Duke Resigns   (15 minutes ago)
    message to all nobles of Armonía
    Artimus Bathgate has resigned as duke of Xavax.

 
Quote
  Roleplay from Artimus Bathgate   (13 minutes ago)
    Message sent to everyone in your realm (23 recipients)
    Nobles, today I announce to you that I have stepped down as Duke of Xavax so as to allow Duke Dread to return to his rightful status.

    All hail Duke Dread!
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Sacha on June 25, 2013, 12:38:28 AM
Seems like a pretty obvious placeholder to me.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Fleugs on June 25, 2013, 12:40:51 AM
Additional information;

I am not sure if the player of Artimus, whom I made the case against, is the (only) person to blame. I have a feeling that this is not entirely his decision, as often is with placeholder positions. However I have no proof to show that anyone else was involved in this.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Sacha on June 25, 2013, 12:48:26 AM
Well, even if the ruler isn't in on it, they have a responsibility to discourage such behavior. If the ruler simply reappoints the old Duke then they're broadcasting in big neon lettering that placeholders are totally okay, which they aren't.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: ^ban^ on June 25, 2013, 01:17:18 AM
And here I thought this nonsense was a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Anaris on June 25, 2013, 03:01:15 AM
Yep, that looks about as obvious as it gets, placeholder-wise.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Velax on June 25, 2013, 07:12:10 AM
Who's at fault, though? Maybe Glenn took the position properly, but was later told to step down.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Fleugs on June 25, 2013, 08:34:17 AM
I think it's going towards a threesome;

Quote
A New Duke   (1 hour, 56 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Armonía
Lady Autrey Bendix, Queen of Armonía, Royal of Armonía, Duchess of Itorunt, Margravine of Itorunt, Marshal of Armonian Combat Elite has appointed Dread Fantom to the vacant duke position of Xavax.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Bendix on June 25, 2013, 09:10:42 AM
I plead guilty. I completely spaced on that rule. I did tell the player of Artimus(Glenn?) it was his choice, but I appointed him knowing he would most likely want to give Dread his position back.

I'm sorry guys. I screwed this one up royally. I throw myself at the mercy of the court.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: reggieharmon on June 25, 2013, 01:56:05 PM
Not sure this was a place holder case.

Dread is contact Autrey on his recovery.  He had given justification why he was the best candidate for the positions.  Dread was assigned the Margrave.  Artimus the Dukes position.  When he wanted to vacate the Duke position, I know that Dread sent him this letter in private:

"Count Artimus,

I do appreciate you appointing me Margrave of Xavax.  I will not deny that I would like to continue to serve as Duke but you currently hold the title.  I do not want to take something from you if you feel strongly about having the position.

If you only held it so my appointment of Margrave of Xavax could be accomplish, then I would be happy to take back the title.

Let me know."

There was a choice made, no one planned or forced any end result here.  So though what was public for the realm to read may appear as a place holder, I do not agree in fact it was.

Later,
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Fleugs on June 25, 2013, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: reggieharmon on June 25, 2013, 01:56:05 PM
If you only held it so my appointment of Margrave of Xavax could be accomplish, then I would be happy to take back the title.


The idea is that Autrey should not have reappointed Dread as Duke because that just confirms placeholding, like the player himself admits in this very thread.
I personally believe the rule against placeholding is important because it allows a certain flow of positions. What happened now is a duke that was finally removed after a very long time of holding that position, is returned to being duke. This entirely kills the possibility for others to have even a chance at becoming duke themselves.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Anaris on June 25, 2013, 02:46:17 PM
Quote from: Fleugs on June 25, 2013, 02:18:00 PM
I personally believe the rule against placeholding is important because it allows a certain flow of positions. What happened now is a duke that was finally removed after a very long time of holding that position, is returned to being duke. This entirely kills the possibility for others to have even a chance at becoming duke themselves.

This bears repeating.

The rule against placeholders is not an arbitrary one, nor is it simply meant to protect the person appointed in the interim from being forced to do something he does not choose.

Placeholders are not permitted, regardless of the desires of those involved in the case. While it is true that gaining a Lordship has become much easier in recent times due to the dearth of active players, there are still many areas where rising above that level is very difficult. Dukeships and Council positions, once vacated, are only permitted to be taken up by those who are committed to holding the position as their own.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Bendix on June 25, 2013, 04:50:33 PM
I can't speak for Reggie, but if I had thought about the placeholder rule for even one second I would never have allowed this.

What should I do now?
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Anaris on June 25, 2013, 05:28:42 PM
Quote from: Bendix on June 25, 2013, 04:50:33 PM
I can't speak for Reggie, but if I had thought about the placeholder rule for even one second I would never have allowed this.

What should I do now?

Await the verdict, I'd say.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Bendix on June 26, 2013, 01:49:04 AM
Well, other than the obvious. I feel like I should be doing something proactively to make this right. Would it be appropriate to issue an OOC apology and explanation to my realm to prevent others from breaking this rule in the future?
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Geronus on June 26, 2013, 01:52:11 AM
That's fine, though it's likely a public warning will be given in addition to any other consequences that are decided upon. Assuming that code works anyway  :o
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Chenier on June 26, 2013, 02:36:28 AM
Quote from: Anaris on June 25, 2013, 03:01:15 AM
Yep, that looks about as obvious as it gets, placeholder-wise.

Maybe you can refresh my memory, but wasn't that ruled aimed at the people making the suggestion/command, and not the people doing the stepping down itself? As in, it's against the rules to ask someone to sit on a title until another character becomes available again, but not the act of sitting on the title itself.

'cause if the guy doesn't really want the position, what are you gonna do, force him to keep it?
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Anaris on June 26, 2013, 03:19:45 AM
Quote from: Chénier on June 26, 2013, 02:36:28 AM
Maybe you can refresh my memory, but wasn't that ruled aimed at the people making the suggestion/command, and not the people doing the stepping down itself? As in, it's against the rules to ask someone to sit on a title until another character becomes available again, but not the act of sitting on the title itself.

'cause if the guy doesn't really want the position, what are you gonna do, force him to keep it?

The whole thing is against the rules.

If the guy didn't want the position, he shouldn't have taken it in the first place.

(We had a whole discussion about exactly this on IRC today, and that's basically the part that I had to keep coming back to.)
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Chenier on June 26, 2013, 03:49:16 AM
Quote from: Anaris on June 26, 2013, 03:19:45 AM
The whole thing is against the rules.

If the guy didn't want the position, he shouldn't have taken it in the first place.

(We had a whole discussion about exactly this on IRC today, and that's basically the part that I had to keep coming back to.)

Granted, I didn't take time to properly read the situation, but in many situations, appointments are made without the appointee knowing in advance.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Bendix on June 26, 2013, 05:06:47 AM
HEre is the conversation between myself and Artimus:

***

Request from Autrey Bendix   (7 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to: Artimus Bathgate
Count Artimus,

I need to appoint a new Duke of Xavax so that Dread Fantom can be reinstated as Margrave. Are you up to the task?

Lady Autrey Bendix
Queen of Armonía
Royal of Armonía
Duchess of Itorunt
Margravine of Itorunt

***
Letter from Artimus Bathgate   (7 days, 6 hours ago)
Queen Autrey,

My role here is to be of service to the realm.  If you need me, I am prepared to fulfill whatever role you have for me.

Artimus Bathgate
Count of Enubec

***

Letter from Autrey Bendix   (7 days, 4 hours ago)
(Personal message to Artimus Bathgate)
Duke Artimus,

We just need you to re-appoint Dread as Margrave of Xavax. After that, it is your choice whether you would like to remain as Duke, or step down and allow Dread to be re-appointed.

Lady Autrey Bendix
Queen of Armonía
Royal of Armonía
Duchess of Itorunt
Margravine of Itorunt

***

Letter from Artimus Bathgate   (7 days, 4 hours ago)
When Sir Dread is ready to resume his duties, I will step down.  I hope to get Enubec returned to me at that time.

Artimus Bathgate
Duke of Xavax
Count of Enubec

***


Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Geronus on June 26, 2013, 03:48:10 PM
Whelp, that seems fairly cut and dry to me...
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Chenier on July 02, 2013, 01:14:47 PM
Quote from: Geronus on June 26, 2013, 03:48:10 PM
Whelp, that seems fairly cut and dry to me...

Is it...? He wasn't forced to step down after the appointment, though mentioning it is suggestive.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Bendix on July 03, 2013, 12:58:17 AM
Maybe I can provide some context.

This incident arose from In-Character reasons; Dread is very old, and also the founder of the realm, and Autrey wants him to live out his last years with dignity and respect. She sees him as a mentor. This has been an ongoing thing ever since Autrey took power. Autrey chose Artimus because Dread is a longtime friend and mentor to him as well, and she hoped Artimus would feel the same way about respecting an elder.

If you want to know who is technically at fault, I don't know. I DO know that I personally violated, at the very least, the spirit of the law by re-appointing Dread, because my intent behind appointing Artimus was ultimately to get Dread back in the Ducal Seat, and I forgot there was a law against it. I'm ready to take full responsibility for that; ignorance of the law is no excuse.

However, it is a little alarming to me that making a theoretical interpretation of a Ruler's language would have any bearing on any trial, either presently or in the future:

"your options become suggestions to them, and your suggestion become orders to them."

This is an illogical theory, at least in this case: if a Ruler gives a Subject two options without expressing an opinion on either option, how is the Subject supposed to know which option the Ruler wants him to pick? For all Artimus could have known, I might have wanted him NOT to give the power back; at no point did I tell him that I would prefer him to step down.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Anaris on July 03, 2013, 08:53:27 PM
I have split the off-topic messages off into a new thread (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4395.0.html).

Any further messages on that subject in this thread will be summarily deleted. If you want to discuss it, go to the new thread (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4395.0.html).
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Geronus on July 08, 2013, 05:37:42 PM
Apologies for the delayed response. We have been holding off on issuing a verdict while the Devs add some features to the Magistrate interface. The voting has been reset and a verdict should be issued within a few days.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Geronus on July 14, 2013, 04:48:03 PM
A verdict has been reached, and necessary IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict was:

"The Magistrates find the defendant guilty of appointing a placeholder Duke with the intent of returning the position to its previous holder at the earliest opportunity. While technically the placeholder was offered a choice as to whether or not to step down from the Duchy command, the intent of the appointment was made clear from the first. As a result of this, the Ruler who made the appointments will be stripped of all titles for a minimum of two weeks. The Duke who was granted his position back will also be stripped of his titles for the same duration."

Magistrates voted 7-0 in favor of the guilty verdict, with 1 in favor of a warning and 6 in favor of stripping the titles of the Ruler and Duke. Titles have been stripped. This thread will be locked after a few more days.
Title: Re: Placeholder Duke
Post by: Bendix on July 14, 2013, 09:23:39 PM
Just FYI, I resigned as ruler voluntarily, completely for in-character reasons, before the verdict was entered. I hope this doesn't cause any problems. I did not see a "Magistrate Message" stating I was barred from the 'Ruler' position, possibly because I was not ruler at the time. I do not intend to run for re-election as ruler of the realm, regardless, but I just want to be sure this doesn't become a separate issue.

Thank you all for your fair and appropriate treatment of my case. It won't happen again.