BattleMaster Community

BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: Menethil on July 09, 2013, 03:53:09 PM

Title: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and fac
Post by: Menethil on July 09, 2013, 03:53:09 PM
Summary:   Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and facebook
Violation:   OOC contract
World:   East-Continent
Complainer:   Jason Zammit
About:   Alexandros Stavrou

Full Complaint Text:

To sum it up I wasnt really planning on even opening this up in spite of the overwhelming evidence just on the forum against the player.  However, due to a no remorse an unapologetic nature of this person who says things all over the place and then simply goes 'ok I will stop now' without even apologising to the person he does stuff to.  A good example was after I already quit he immediately began with the sore loser rage quitter immediately.  When he realises it not he simply says I take back what I said.

On the situation at hand.  He filed a complaint against myself and Deytheur ruler of Eponllyn to the Magistrates about us supposedly dating and that is somehow illegal.  Obviously this was wrong to start with.  However things went to far when he put this information in the forum and started to use it in character and telling as much people he could about it to gain more support for Perdan and less support for Caligus.

I've always been the target of normal various insults on irc and such which is completely fine but use of whatever my personal life is is a major step too far and this caused me to hate battlemaster.  I dont wish to see this happen to another player and the only way I see anything changing is if an unapologetic player is punished for his actions.  This was a case of winning was the only option and he would do anything to achieve that.

As for evidence there is various forum posts in the Perdan vs Caligus + friends thread to be the foremost one.  Also with various irc users and other people in character namely Autrey Bendix.  Im not a person who seeks revenge on another player if that was the case I would have opening this a month ago.  Hes had ample time to apologise to me for his actons and he simply hasnt.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 09, 2013, 04:06:10 PM
I have moved this topic here from the Questions & Answers sub-forum, where Menethil had to post it, as regular Magistrate cases can only be filed from within the game (and he has already deleted his account).
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 09, 2013, 04:11:18 PM
So is this now a regular Magistrate case?
Are now the rules of Battlemaster being ridiculed for someone who quit?

Seriously, this goes too far, and honestly, I will not defend against someone who isn't even a player of BM anymore.

That is against my rights as player.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 09, 2013, 04:16:16 PM
If he had filed this five seconds before he quit, it would have been posted in the normal manner.

I do not see a problem with it being filed after he quit, since the purpose of a Magistrates case of this nature is not to fix the situation for Menethil, but to make a final determination as to whether what you have done was against the spirit of the Social Contract, and if so, deliver a punishment deemed appropriate to deter you from doing such things in the future.

Don't give me BS about your rights as a player when you felt absolutely no compunction about trampling all over Jason's rights just because he happened to be playing the rule of a realm that your character's realm was at war with.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 09, 2013, 04:19:36 PM
Ummm can I get some more context? And some more specifics? More everything really.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 09, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
You should read this post (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4415.msg112452.html#msg112452) and the several related posts that follow. They give a general outline of the situation.

I will try and put together a more comprehensive account of my experience of this whole fiasco later today.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 09, 2013, 05:15:18 PM
Very well. Then get ready to ready to read a lot. And by that I mean a LOT.
With this you are ready to harm at least one more RL situation more but this is what you wanted. Justice.

Now to the complaint text.

On the situation at hand.  He filed a complaint against myself and Deytheur ruler of Eponllyn to the Magistrates about us supposedly dating and that is somehow illegal.

First I filed a Titan report, not a Magistrates complaint. I had asked Anaris about this earlier. I filed a complaint about you and Deytheur living together and being closer than most other BM players to each other. By this I don't mean your relationsship, but the geographical closeness, if you want to say it so. Living in same room, access to each other's accounts. This for two rulers on same continent, gangbanging on one realm - everyone would have said this could be fishy. Of course I mentioned the relationsship in my complaint, but it was more an add on to explain the background of why I suspect you and file you as possible multicheaters. But the real reason was to see if you two arrange things without sending messages between Dobromir and Siana etc.

Here is what I got from the Titan (whoever it was), he also didn't understand it first, that I was not interested in your relationsship but in the fact that you live together.
I explained it to him again.

Quote
Regarding the case of "Multicheating / Violation of SC", there is no evidence of multi-cheating in this case. (We have noticed the link between these accounts, and have already investigated it.)If I am understanding this complaint correctly, you are claiming that these two players aren't playing fair because you think they are having an RL relationship. And you want the Titans to take action against him/them because they didn't tell you about it?Personal and private relationships between players are personal and private. If a player wishes to keep their relationships private, then I don't see what business it is of ours. Players are not required to provide details of their private relationships with other players. Please take a few minutes to sit back and think about this complaint. What exactly is it that you are complaining about? Please quote the specific part of the Social Contract that you think is being violated, and what the defendant has done to violate that part of the Social Contract.

Response sent 2013-05-20 19:09:01:

Dear Titan(s),thank your for quick reply.The specific part of the SC is "We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends".As I said, I don't care if they are together, I feel this actually a cool thing for BM. However, their positions as rulers on the same continent bring up a questionable situation and IG decisions have been very weird, not only for me, but also for others.Also if the realms coordinate attacks OOC (in the same room), everyone else does not play on the same "board of game".Further, I don't know if you checked but have there been bilateral messages sent between the accounts over the last four months in a high fashion? Or has there been no IC communication at all when only the two parties were involved?Summerizing, if they are not playing on the same board, that is operating ingame, while both realms war together, then that is not "a game with good friends". That is the complaint. And it is actually filed against the player of Dobromir, since he is the active player of the two who acts on IRC and ingame most, having also shown to know what was going on in the other realm.The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this. :)I hope I explained it now more clear. :)Thank you!Alexandros

A little bit later the complaint was rejected and I abided by it.

Now, the big question? How did I know this at all? Well, no worries Dobromir, it was no Developer who told me it.
It was my General in Perdan on irc, Ays, also called Susan Hutchinson who told me your "secret".
For the rest, Ays and Dobromir work IRL together, via the net, but they work together.
Now why would Susan do that? To harm you? No, we both know that Susan is not such a person.

Susan did it because of your and Deytheur's constant harassment of me in IRC in the first month of war.
You were treating me like [email protected]#$ in Perdan and East-Island channel, and yes we had to ban you from IRC, because you kept coming back, although I had asked you many many times politely about it to stop.
Yes, unlike you think, I never filed the report the day you declared war to Perdan.
I filed it a lot later, one month later after long discussions with Ays where all this would end. And I told her this would likely end in a huge BM drama, that's why I as well didn't want to file it first.
See, I had no real need to get you both punished for possible powergaming or multicheating, since Perdan was anyway on advantage against your realms. I felt this would be solved ICly anyway.
You try to insunuate that I did this for IC benefit, but there wasn't any. I did it because you were attacking me OOCly and yes, as player, I felt harassed.

As you harassed also the Titans, when you found out that you got reported.
But it was no Titan who told your secret, it was another player, which you had told so.
You attack others for your own mistakes?
If you want to keep your private life, fine, do it, but don't complain when people find out due to your own misbehaviour and leaking.
And again, I don't care at all about the relationship. You two could be just normal roommates and I would file it too if I feel that you two could do sth not according to the rules.

Now you talk about Autrey (allied ruler to Dobromir and Deytheur and third realm that gangbangs Perdan)? Well, yes that was my only mistake.
Autrey and I had a private convo and she told me that Perdan was unnormal with that recruiting we do.
She said that with a kind of tone like we would cheat in Perdan, so I told in her return "you should check first in your own team".
Then conversation went on and i said that the accounts are linked but they are clear. Surprisingly even Autrey said that during Ibladesh war she felt that deytheur was lot too good informed of Caligus movement than she should. However I told her to handle this as she wanted and she said she would do a mathematically rnadom choice and then keep playing on. We both agreed this was the best way to handle that info. See, all your secretkeeping had to put other players to always watch their words carefully and then even do mathematically random choices to make the own conscience free of doubt of doing the right thing by dealing with your realms.

Besides this I had spoken about it with Fleugs since he had made many times OOC cheating accusations against you on IRC and I wanted to know the truth behind this was.
This was before I filed the report so that i could provide maximum evidence against you.

And I spoke to it with Velax who I wanted to give me a part of admin team advice on how to handle this.
And he was the one who went to the Forum about it and not me.
See, I was so afraid to report you, because you had harassed me so much on IRC that I even needed a second opinion for something of course had to be reported.

So I can't think of any other relevant thing, but maybe it will come when certain people will fall on me now.
Not only you Dobromir has made its enemies over the last years, but at least I have honestly earned 18 trust medals.
And I appear to be funny a bit too sometimes. :P

Edited: some spelling etc mistakes, I hope I found them all :/
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Velax on July 09, 2013, 05:39:21 PM
It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 09, 2013, 06:04:26 PM
It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.

I did notice that that didn't stop him from immediately taking the opportunity to make his insinuations publicly, however.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 09, 2013, 06:25:24 PM
It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.

You perhaps mentioned it first but it was him that demanded an explanation and kept the subject going on in the forum as long as possible.  Here is no other than 5 posts about him forcing the thread to basically be locked to drop the subject

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4182.105.html

Furthermore even if he was told by Ays.  It was Atanamir's decision to make the whole community know and find out about it.  He by his own admittance did tell Armonia's ruler about it all so it shows clear intent to use this personal information for his own benefit.  This is a horrid display about trying to throw multiple people under the bus.  Furthermore, such information should not even be discussed with other players for advice especially players who dont even like me in the first place.  The only reason this happened was of personal interests in a game.  It simply did not matter how much harm is cause as long as victory is acheived.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Chaotrance13 on July 09, 2013, 06:28:32 PM
Susan did it because of your and Deytheur's constant harassment of me in IRC in the first month of war.
You were treating me like [email protected]#$ in Perdan and East-Island channel, and yes we had to ban you from IRC, because you kept coming back, although I had asked you many many times politely about it to stop.
Yes, unlike you think, I never filed the report the day you declared war to Perdan.
I filed it a lot later, one month later after long discussions with Ays where all this would end. And I told her this would likely end in a huge BM drama, that's why I as well didn't want to file it first.
See, I had no real need to get you both punished for possible powergaming or multicheating, since Perdan was anyway on advantage against your realms. I felt this would be solved ICly anyway.
You try to insunuate that I did this for IC benefit, but there wasn't any. I did it because you were attacking me OOCly and yes, as player, I felt harassed.

Did you even consider the use of the /ignore command on IRC as well, as well as the Ignore function in-game? Or maybe not letting the bans expire on IRC, making them permanent? Because to me, filing reports about their relationship because they weren't nice to you on IRC is first off childish and secondly it reeks of using the Titans as a weapon against players because of other reasons. You yourself admit you had doubts and didn't really want to be filing reports - so why do it? In your words, because you were being harassed. If you were being harassed on IRC you should have kept logs and come to the Magistrates.

Quote
As you harassed also the Titans, when you found out that you got reported.
But it was no Titan who told your secret, it was another player, which you had told so.
You attack others for your own mistakes?
If you want to keep your private life, fine, do it, but don't complain when people find out due to your own misbehaviour and leaking.
And again, I don't care at all about the relationship. You two could be just normal roommates and I would file it too if I feel that you two could do sth not according to the rules.

If he harassed the Titans as you allege, they would deal with it themselves, they do not need you yelling and screaming in their corner. I'm thinking that kind of thing would lead to them referring to Tom to have him bolted or removed from positions as harassing the game's volunteers is seen very, very poorly.

Quote
Besides this I had spoken about it with Fleugs since he had made many times OOC cheating accusations against you on IRC and I wanted to know the truth behind this was.
This was before I filed the report so that i could provide maximum evidence against you.

Are there IRC logs of these incidents? Because this sounds like a breach of the Social Contract as well (namely making accusations without proof - especially when the Titans then exonerate the pair of any multi-account accusations). For that matter, Fleugs should have brought it to the Titans or Magistrates instead of going around spouting off.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 09, 2013, 06:31:30 PM
The truth about the whole irc matter is he was blantently accusing me for OOC conspiracies against him and cheating.  Eventually i got tired of it and yes I insulted him.  He insulted me back just as much as I insulted him however.  In the end I actually apologised to him he did not.  Im certainly not whining over an irc arguing where there were insults thrown on both sides.  There were many people there for it also so if arguing on irc is an offense we are both guilty of that.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Chaotrance13 on July 09, 2013, 06:37:36 PM
The truth about the whole irc matter is he was blantently accusing me for OOC conspiracies against him and cheating.  Eventually i got tired of it and yes I insulted him.  He insulted me back just as much as I insulted him however.  In the end I actually apologised to him he did not.  Im certainly not whining over an irc arguing where there were insults thrown on both sides.  There were many people there for it also so if arguing on irc is an offense we are both guilty of that.

Arguing over IRC isn't an issue, in fact that's just normal discourse and therefore not an offence. Accusations of cheating however is an issue. But that's a tangent either way and if there were evidence it would need a separate case, so it's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 09, 2013, 06:40:22 PM
Arguing over IRC isn't an issue, in fact that's just normal discourse and therefore not an offence. Accusations of cheating however is an issue. But that's a tangent either way and if there were evidence it would need a separate case, so it's neither here nor there.

Im not concerned about it Fleugs used to blame me for that all the time.  You cant take those things too seriously its not an issue for me personally.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Lavigna on July 09, 2013, 06:55:28 PM
Pff Atanamir was also accused for cheating and for weird new players in Perdan that all move efficiently and bla bla bla, some did troll him just to piss him off, some may also believe it..

This isn't the matter here.

This is about an ooc harass concerning a players personal life. Apparently Atannamir felt that an ooc relationship (of whatever form) changed their in game actions and their in game attitude.
Sure you can call childish the fact he brought it to the Titans, he felt like doing so and he did.

But Jason also says that many players told him he discussed it with them as well oocly and that is not acceptable. The question is can those players also bring evidence for that in the forum?Because mostly that is the real case.

OOC insults between those two has taken place on irc and none of them deny it, but  oocly discussing things for which you shouldn't is a totally different matter.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 09, 2013, 07:03:44 PM
I have removed posts not relevant to this case. Due to the highly personal nature of this dispute, we will be moderating this thread carefully. If your post does not directly concern the allegations made in the first post, I will remove it. If it contains personal attacks, I will remove them.

Your personal dispute will not continue here beyond the sharing of evidence and your perspectives insofar as they are relevant.

If there is bullying going on elsewhere, report it in a separate case if appropriate, but please be aware that the Magistrates are unable to take any actions against individuals who do not have BM accounts.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 09, 2013, 07:35:11 PM
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Fleugs on July 09, 2013, 07:57:04 PM
I will post the IRC logs I have soon. Want them posted here or on a third-party site (and if so, which)? I could post small parts here and full logs somewhere else for completion's sake.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 09, 2013, 08:00:23 PM
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 09, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
I will post the IRC logs I have soon. Want them posted here or on a third-party site (and if so, which)? I could post small parts here and full logs somewhere else for completion's sake.

Not my area of expertise. If you are familiar with a good third party site, choose one and post the link and any necessary instructions for accessing them. Please also post anything particularly relevant here.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Fleugs on July 09, 2013, 10:14:38 PM
The entire log can be found at http://pastebin.com/90n5aivP (http://pastebin.com/90n5aivP). The following are extracts from the log which I find noteworthy.

May 17 2013;
Quote
[19:24] <Atanamir> i know now you why you hate him so much
01[19:24] <Fleugs> he's a douche player
01[19:24] <Fleugs> :)
[19:24] <Atanamir> he is an OOC liar and powergamer
01[19:24] <Fleugs> yup
01[19:24] <Fleugs> totally
01[19:24] <Fleugs> even Sinted warned me of that
01[19:24] <Fleugs> maybe I should have warned you ;)
[19:25] <Atanamir> he and deytheur are couple IRL, they sit in same room and play eponllyn and caligus and sandwich perdan

Quote
01[19:28] <Fleugs> file a complaint, but I know Deytheur ever since she began playing BM
01[19:28] <Fleugs> and I really, REALLY doubt they are living together
01[19:28] <Fleugs> or even IRL friends
[19:28] <Atanamir> he said it to Ays, and she said it to me
[19:29] <Atanamir> so the thing is solid
01[19:29] <Fleugs> get a case running then
01[19:29] <Fleugs> for OOC cheating
[19:29] <Atanamir> no that is direty
01[19:29] <Fleugs> I'm happy to oblige against Dobby

Quote
01[19:46] <Fleugs> I'll get in touch with Woelfy
01[19:46] <Fleugs> he might add to it too

June 05 2013
Quote
[11:01] <Atanamir> titans rejected my complaint did I tell you?
01[11:02] <Fleugs> yup
[11:02] <Atanamir> autrey knows now as well
[11:02] <Atanamir> since she said that perdan is doing suspicious things by having so much CS :P
[11:02] <Atanamir> i told her i ma not cheater here
[11:02] <Atanamir> :P
01[11:02] <Fleugs> no Perdan has alway been like that
[11:02] <Atanamir> then discussions started
[11:02] <Atanamir> in ooc
[11:03] <Atanamir> and i told her
[11:03] <Atanamir> she fell from her chair lol
01[11:03] <Fleugs> lol
[11:03] <Atanamir> she said she susspected this sing long as well
[11:04] <Atanamir> cause saina already in ibladesh kneww to many things since elisedd was caligus marhsal
[11:04] <Atanamir> but didn't realize it was that bad

I think in the next part he was referring to me calling Atanamir out about how he was spreading rumours that Dobromir and Deytheur were in a relationship, while I have repeatedly asked Deytheur this and at all points she denied it. At the same time it doesn't at all look like Dobromir and Deytheur logged in at the same time, and in either case whatever is or isn't going on is entirely irrelevant to Battlemaster;

Quote
[15:30] <Atanamir> this is a game, I am going for a flame war
[15:30] <Atanamir> i had this enough in my 9 years lol
[15:30] <Atanamir> sometimes ppl have difefrent opinions, that is fine, end of topic
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Fleugs on July 09, 2013, 10:17:48 PM
I also recall that the rejection of his titan case and the emergence of these rumours on the forum, and likely in other places as well, are more or less the same in time. For this however there should be cross-reference between the rejection of his titan case and the forum logs.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Bendix on July 09, 2013, 10:56:55 PM
Alexandros Stavrou did mention the alleged relationship between Deytheur and Menethil to me in an OOC comment. His comment was that the magistrates had ruled against him, and that he would abide their decision. He also stated that his personal opinion was that, while legal, it was "in bad taste" for them to both have ruler characters on the same continent. I actually agree with him on this particular sentiment; I am also of the opinion that doing such a thing would be "in bad taste", if true.

However, that is only my personal opinion, and there is nothing strictly unethical about having bad taste.

Alexandros Stavrou was careful not to overtly ask me to change my IC behavior in any way (such as turning on my allies) after receiving this information. He did at one point mention that "Siana and Dobromir will just turn on Armonia as soon as the war is over", and that they were "Laughing about it in IRC". I responded by saying I would not discuss IC issues OOC.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 10, 2013, 08:13:00 AM
Well thank you for those logs Fleugs, I somehow got another 2 trust medals overnight. ;)

To the protocoll: I want to add that in the line "I am going for a flame war" I meant "I am NOT going for a flame war"
Everyone who knows me from IRC, knows that I am crappy typer and I forget often words.
Still, if you read entire logs and see context, then it makes no sense that I wanted a flame war.
I hate flame wars, I am really too old and have no time for this crap.

Now I strongly encourage to read the entire log for the pieces that Fleugs posted are quite far away from each other.
First of all, I apologize to Jason/Laura for one line in this logs, where I got carried away and fell below my own level, for what I feel ashamed.
However, it also can be clearly seen that my conversation with Fleugs was of investigative nature (he plays BM for 10 years so I was sure he could keep this info for himself, he often accused Jason as cheater, so I gave info to get his info and see if there is more behind the topic) and that I was primarily interested to solve this IC (by defeating the realms and split their power as rulers), and if not possible, with a report. Fleugs encouraged me though to file a report as well.
I also did tell him that this would be a Titan case in order to not spread this issue in public (Magistrate cases are public) around and that I was concerned about privacy reasons.
You can also read that I explicitely asked him not to spread this information around.
I also told him of my mistake with Autrey when I wanted to make sure that he knew of the verdict and that the issue is settled and that intended to solve it via IC means.
The last part is where Fleugs harassed and flamed me on the matter quite harshly calling me things in public out and then in personal to quit my char in Perdan, trying to put me in the corner of "I am taking things too personal". I just let him flame out, obviously, well, at the end, it's Fleugs.

Also, thank you Nate (Autrey) for confirming what I also said in my earlier post. It was a mistake and it slipped out and for this I am sorry.
At no means I wanted to influence his decision and he obviously still wars with Armonia Perdan and I'm totally fine with that.
Also, I was sure that he would not spread this information around, he is a responsible player.

Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 10, 2013, 10:01:55 AM
No your apology wont be accepted.  I have told multiple of your friends that thats what I wanted from the start.  At this point after your rage and insults even just yesterday morning I feel this is only a way for you to try and avoid punishment.  Thing still stands Ays told you and you only.  You made sure it got out to the whole community and you used it for your own benefit.  This was not an accident.  It was crazy over competitiveness that you let get way too far.  You have months to apologise for this now that there are people beginning to share information and after i tell certain people why I started this in the first place I see an apology shortly after?

Im sorry but I have no reason to believe this is genuine.  You cause me alot of headaches grief and destroyed my interest in battlemaster and the first thing out of your mouth was 'hahah sore loser rage quit'  You are hardly sorry of what happened.  All that matters for you has and will be your reputation and your name in this game I know this is only a way to try and keep it as good as possible.

The post deleted by generous yesterday proves that you have no remorse you called me all sorts of names yesterday afternoon and all of a sudden you are now sorry.  Did you simply talk to Fleugs?  No.  Did you simply just mention it to Autrey after that?  No.  By your own admittance you told Velax also.  Im sure you had many other friends you had no business telling also but they are your friends and wont speak up in here.

Thats all I have to say on the matter.  Once I opened this thread it was too late for an apology.  Like I said I dont believe its a genuine apology whatsoever.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 10, 2013, 11:04:59 AM
I tried to reconcile and asked Jason just earlier on IRC now of what he wants from me to do for an apology and so he feels better again:

Quote
[10:08] <+Dobromir> if you want to prove you are sorry
[10:08] <+Dobromir> get up now
[10:08] <+Dobromir> and delete Atanamir

I will leave this to the Magistrates to interprete.
For my part, I am also ready to continue my talks with Jason, but only in public and transparent.
Edited: As I feel as well all this public discussion harms the game, a moderated room would also suffice.

The entire discussion is on the #bm-channel on IRC now, but I don't know how to keep logs and I am also at work, my time is limited.
Maybe someone else from the channel can do it.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 10, 2013, 11:18:28 AM
I tried to reconcile and asked Jason just earlier on IRC now of what he wants from me to do for an apology and so he feels better again:

I will leave this to the Magistrates to interprete.
For my part, I am also ready to continue my talks with Jason, but only in public and transparent.

The entire discussion is on the #bm-channel on IRC now, but I don't know how to keep logs and I am also at work, my time is limited.
Maybe someone else from the channel can do it.

This was hardly the context of the convo everyone knows I left irc so i dont have any of the conversation.  I however wont even be saying a single word further to you on any public network.  Stabbity was there and I shortly followed by it wouldnt change anything and I agreed with it.  This was purely my personal opinion and wasnt a demand or request from me.   I dont believe he is sorry so this is my way of telling him because I know hes not feeling even close to bad enough to do anything of this sort.  There was no intent on these words whatsoever.  I have now also put the person on ignore as I can see he is trying to gain any advantage he can in the situation and he not remorseful whatsoever.  The public nature of this so called apology is  purely to make him seem like a good guy in the community. 
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Revan on July 10, 2013, 12:52:12 PM
Should IRC/Chat be so prominently promoted inside BattleMaster if it can lead to situations like this? Seems like a nasty, cliquey place based on all of this. Doesn't seem like a place we should be pushing newer players. Especially when some folk seem to think it's a place where they can do and say anything without fear of punishment. I'm not saying stop people using IRC, but certainly the game should not be linking directly to it if players are walking into a viper pit. This is supposed to be a friendly, collegial board game like you would play with friends :-\
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: ^ban^ on July 10, 2013, 01:25:12 PM
Should IRC/Chat be so prominently promoted inside BattleMaster if it can lead to situations like this? Seems like a nasty, cliquey place based on all of this. Doesn't seem like a place we should be pushing newer players. Especially when some folk seem to think it's a place where they can do and say anything without fear of punishment. I'm not saying stop people using IRC, but certainly the game should not be linking directly to it if players are walking into a viper pit. This is supposed to be a friendly, collegial board game like you would play with friends :-\

Just because there are one or two jerks doesn't mean everyone is a jerk.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 10, 2013, 01:47:21 PM
People have been saying the same thing about the forum: that it's the cause of all this nastiness, that people feel free to flame other people, that before the forums, people were more polite.

I don't think either is true, and I don't think this is the place to discuss it.

If you want to discuss the role of different communications media in the BM community, go start another thread. Further posts on that topic on this thread will be deleted.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Deytheur on July 10, 2013, 07:17:26 PM
I feel like people are getting off the point here. Trying to drag any little bit of mud against us. Like it's 'bad taste' for us to both be rulers when actually we were both rulers before we knew each other, that I was cheating however many years ago. Please do not make such comments and wild exaggerations unless you know the whole situation.

We have been through the IG reasons for why there is this 'gangbang' what feels like a million times with various people, that is not the issue here. Most of this whole mess could have just been avoided if people had tried to talk to me instead of gossiping behind my back.

I cannot begin to describe how upset I was the morning I woke up and some friends pointed me to the forums (I don't really frequent them otherwise) to find allegations about my private life posted by people I didn't even know. And even more than this, allegations that I didn't know how to play the game properly. I wrote out a response to that post many times but I couldn't bring myself to post it because firstly I was afraid of it just giving people more fuel to use against me and secondly because I could never really find the right words to properly explain just how shocked and upset I was by both Atanamir and Velax.

After I gave up trying to reply that I thought things would quieten down when the thread was locked and then the other thread was sanitised and I have been trying to withdraw from the OOC side of the game.

Then it came up that a Titan report had been filed but the Titans hadn't found any reason to take any action. Shouldn't that be a sign that there was no reason for anyone else to care either? Player of Atanamir, if you had truly abided by the decision then why did you even feel the need to reply to the Titans to make sure they checked whether we were sending messages in game etc?

Let alone keep talking to other people about it, as it kept emerging you had. And every time you had an opportunity making snide comments and trying to turn other conversations towards it, you did. And then completely refusing to admit that you could possibly have done anything wrong made everything a lot more frustrating. I remember one conversation when it was just you talking to Delvin and he was trying to explain how you were out of line and still all you could do was argue with someone who was impartial.

It seems to me that you weren't happy with the outcome and so you had to spread these accusations further around and it all comes back to being overly competitive about an IG war.

Even reading all the things you said to Fleugs, I can't decide whether to have a good cry and quit the game myself because this level of hypocrisy and personal attacks I am struggling to cope with.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 10, 2013, 07:29:47 PM
I believe that two of the points Deytheur makes particularly bear repeating.

I feel like people are getting off the point here. Trying to drag any little bit of mud against us. Like it's 'bad taste' for us to both be rulers when actually we were both rulers before we knew each other, that I was cheating however many years ago. Please do not make such comments and wild exaggerations unless you know the whole situation.

This is the first.

Deytheur and Menethil are not defendants here. Their behaviour is not in question. They were reported for multicheating, investigated, and cleared. None of the other behaviour they are accused of, whether it's true or not, breaks any BM rule. They have not been harassing anyone about this issue.

Not a single thing that Deytheur and Menethil have done or said is germane to this case.

Quote
Let alone keep talking to other people about it, as it kept emerging you had. And every time you had an opportunity making snide comments and trying to turn other conversations towards it, you did. And then completely refusing to admit that you could possibly have done anything wrong made everything a lot more frustrating. I remember one conversation when it was just you talking to Delvin and he was trying to explain how you were out of line and still all you could do was argue with someone who was impartial.

This is the second important point.

I believe that this is the core of this case, and the part that the Magistrates will need to address most carefully: that  Atanamir hasn't just been harassing these two and spreading vicious rumours and slander, he feels that not only is what he is doing right, but that Menethil and Deytheur are in the wrong, and bad for the game. He does not grasp, or will not accept, that his actions are far, far worse for the game than even the worst that he has accused them of.

The truth is, a dozen multicheaters do far less damage to the game than one person who believes that spreading poisonous rumours and lies about people IC and OOC is an acceptable way to win a war.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Solari on July 10, 2013, 07:56:08 PM
Has it been mentioned yet that I asked Atanamir, privately, TWICE, to stop doing this? And he agreed to? And apparently didn't. I'm not a Magistrate, so this is just my opinion. But this is abuse. It is destroying the game, and should be punished severely.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 10, 2013, 08:02:03 PM
Player of Atanamir, if you had truly abided by the decision then why did you even feel the need to reply to the Titans to make sure they checked whether we were sending messages in game etc?

It seems to me that you weren't happy with the outcome and so you had to spread these accusations further around and it all comes back to being overly competitive about an IG war.

Even reading all the things you said to Fleugs, I can't decide whether to have a good cry and quit the game myself because this level of hypocrisy and personal attacks I am struggling to cope with.

Dear Laura,

the second message to Titans was my answer to their question. I first time got a question from Titans, so I answered it in order to follow their way of working.
After my reply I got after few days the yellow message that disappears that the case was rejected. End of it.
I abided by the decision of the titans and the people I had told about the case, were informed of it so they should abide by it as well.
I didn't want to leave wrong image of you to them the logs to Fleugs show that.
The outcome is the outcome and I abided by it. It's not about being hapy or not, I do not want to put emotions in this as we have already too many emotions in this case.
I just cared if rules were broken and I tried to handle the case as sensible as I could.
For one line in those logs though I apologize, I am sure you know which I mean, I feel even too ashamed to repeat it.
Again, I am not attacking you. And none else does. OOC that is.
I never saw your relationship as something bad. Never. Because RL is above BM.
And I am sure your view is also that RL above BM.
And I find it also not fair to your own relationship when you think I did this only have an advantage over you IC. I mean what the hell do I care what you do in your free time?
But do i care if you cheat on me OOC? Yes I do. Do 50 other players in Perdan care if their realm could get destroyed due to a possible OOC connection? Yes, they do - although they didn't know anything about it, no worries.
Perdan was winning IC long before I filed the case. I had no interest in changing anything IC. I just wanted to have a decision if the situation is correct.
I wanted to know with what kind of people I play, since on IRC these people were treating me badly and at some point didn't speak to me anymore.

Now, what I from my part don't understand is, why Jason or you were not contacting me or someone earlier about it, if you heard that a titan case was field against you by me. You had chosen to not talk to me. But I am not the devil. I am not your enemy in OOC. I am a player with RL like you and everyone else. You could have told me that you feel that I am responsible about your feelings. I would have explained in all honesty how things went - and why I felt that I need to file this report. And I would apologize for the things that were wrong on my behalf. And would have sorted it out like grown ups.
From my side I did not say anything to anyone anymore as I had promised to solari to not speak a word about it anymore - not even about a theoretical case like I did on the forum. Because on forum I not one single time said to anyone that you two are together. Never.
Of course, you two could see that I was talking about this case, but none else could. Because I did not spread the word  around as you claim. Hell I don't even use Skype and it is in the thread topic. And what is fac at all?
The opening of a public magistrate case hurt your privacy even more (and this great game as well) and I really wondered why you do this. I thought the case was closed, honestly.
I know that Jason does not believe me and doesn't want to talk to me, but maybe you can tell me how this situation can be solved?
Shall I delete me char?
Shall I delete my account?
Will this make you happy?
Seriously, if it's just revenge that Jason (or you) seeks, I can give him what he wants.
I see only punishment , punishement, punishment and enraged emotions in his words towards me.
So, honestly, this is only a game, what are we really talking about now?
Do we want a solution or a punishment for this? Because no matter what happens, this will remain in the room.

What I believe more as solution is that Jason should get his account back and continue playing BM - and we sort it out in a moderated room and leave this forum because we hurt only the game here. This must stop.
This is my offer: You, Jason, Ays and a moderator. and we sort it out. As we should have done before the critical point of deleting.
I think it is not fair that someone quits after 10 years with such a reason. I wouldn't want this as well.
If you want my head besides this, you can have it. If it makes you happy.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 10, 2013, 08:04:36 PM
Has it been mentioned yet that I asked Atanamir, privately, TWICE, to stop doing this? And he agreed to? And apparently didn't. I'm not a Magistrate, so this is just my opinion. But this is abuse. It is destroying the game, and should be punished severely.

What brought this behavior to your attention on each occasion?
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 10, 2013, 10:02:49 PM
Ays is having trouble logging onto the forum, and apparently even my adminly powers aren't enough to persuade it to give her more login attempts. She has sent me the following to post on her behalf:



Let us see reason.
I am good friends with Atanamir and Dobromir. That has not changed, nor will any words here alter my feelings.
We need to move forward. There is a belief that we need to bring everything out into the light, expose the faults and underbelly of our actions. Where is that getting us?  In truth we need to stop this weed from growing any bigger. Deytheur is right, the talking and more talking is doing no good.

We are all here for a reason. We love the game; we invest our time and energy in building kingdoms and forging connections; and we are family. We have the grumpy uncles, the sex obsessed nephews, the boastful teenagers, and the drunkards in the corner. We are a colorful bunch, but we are one.

Make no mistake, the trouble between Atanamir and Dobromir is not because they are so different, it is because they are so alike. They are powerful, strong-willed leaders. If we had a BM family reunion, I would sit them at different tables. But, they would both be there.

The origin of the family feud was about following the rules. Both men said things in anger. Both men wanted justice. Both men want the best for the game.  I do, too.

Here is my solution:

Dobromir has his account restored and his title removed. He pursued his privacy and punishment of Atanamir to a great ends. His efforts were to better protect the privacy of BM players. He is family, and he can play, pause or delete as he wishes.

Atanamir has his title of King removed. He worked as he does ingame, with strong counsel and Titan company to assure fair gaming in EC. His efforts were focused on fair play of this game. He is family, and he can play, pause of delete as he wishes.

Titans examine and rewrite the privacy rules. Although I told Atanamir of the relationship, the Titans confirmed his complaint. This was in fact the same break in trust which I am guilty.

Respectfully,
Ays


Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 10, 2013, 10:45:49 PM
I dont see any reason for my account to be restored.  I quit for a reason mainly I need to get away from battlemaster for a while.  Secondly even if i deleted on rash decision that would have been my fault and I shouldnt expect my account to be restored.

This whole matter isnt about punishments what I want to see done to the player.  Its mainly about ethics.  Im not going to go into lengths to say what I think or should be done to Atanamir its not my place to do so.

One thing I will say is you asked why myself and Laura never talked to you about it?  Did you talk to us in the same respect and have the decency to confront us about it?  Answer is no so dont call the kettle black.

As has been said repeatedly you could easily have kept this to yourself after you contacted the Titans.  If you 'knew' there was no reason to go talking to Fleugs or Velax if in your mind we were 'guilty' you should have gone directly to the Titans and told them not tell someone who you knew I wasnt great with.  You were competetive you wanted to win and sadly it went that step too far for you.

I will speak for myself only but I find it hard that you only became sorry for what you did after irc logs were released by Fleugs.  Whether you are or not I dont actually know all I know its hard for me to be convinced this is genuine and you learned anything from it.

For the benefit of the community its best that this case goes on so everyone knows has privacy and social contract cases will be dealt with.  Its the best for the community as a whole and hopefully everyone will be able to trust that it wont be tolerated in the end.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Miriam Ics on July 11, 2013, 12:45:07 AM
Now, what I from my part don't understand is, why Jason or you were not contacting me or someone earlier about it, if you heard that a titan case was field against you by me. You had chosen to not talk to me. But I am not the devil. I am not your enemy in OOC.

I was considering if I should post or not, but I think I need to post after reading this.

Alexandros, you should had called both Jason and Laura for a talk, in private, even before opening a Titan case against them both. You, not them. They did nothing wrong, you thought they were doing wrong. You didn't talk to them and now Jason is gone.
Now you tell me, how can you make things right? You can't, this is the truth.
Nothing you do now, will make things right. This is the problem when you say something. After you said it, you can never more unsay it and no matter what happen now, the game is a bit less funny for all of us who is somehow involved with you, with Laura, with Jason.

Now, what I wrote before.
Atanamir sometimes came to me on IRC, in private, and tried to convince me to leave Eponllyn saying how my kingdom was about to be destroyed and how Armonia would betray us. Spoke clearly that I should accept his proposal, made ??through other characters that Myrnia, my char, knew from before, to avoid having my region destroyed and some more stuff like that. I discussed with him many times. I tried to show how my character could not simply change personality just to save her own skin, but I never said I thought he was trying to convince me oocly. That was a mistake on my part. I should make clear for him that he was pressuring me, nicely but oocly.

Not long ago, I vowed to myself never to return to the IRC because of what Atanamir said. He said, smiling to me, that trying to convince a player to join me publicly was not elegant, was "bad manner", and that I should do it in private or IC. I was very angry that day, first because I was playing with Aragon about her joining Eppy, as I always did, second, was not telling her to betray Perdan (like he said I should do to Eponllyn before) but for her to join us because we want more women in Ponyland (that is how we call Eponllyn affectionately). Third, because I believe that this kind of attitude is what ruins the fun for some players and to wear a smile at the end of the sentence does not change how unpleasant it was.
I was again wrong to not tell him how I felt.

I believe everyone have no doubt here that he did broke at least 3 rules:

A player left the game. He explained that one reason was the attitude of the other. This is very serious and deserve a lot of attention from the magistrates and even from Tom.

(Just to add, I don't dislike Alexandros, but Myrnia hates Atanamir. :p)
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 11, 2013, 08:34:22 AM
This whole matter isnt about punishments what I want to see done to the player.  Its mainly about ethics.

Then please stop lying in the posts about me in here. I wanted to talk to you before Fleugs posted those logs. You weren't there, I needed to go sleep. On the next day, I could only reach you after those logs were posted. The whole battlemaster-channel is my witness. And actually I see those logs confirming what I already said. Gathering maximum evidence against a player who has been called a cheater by various sides. You also bring your friends in here to post (even irrelevant to the case) things against me, but when I do ask people what you have done to be called a cheater, it is wrong? So much about ethics. Please spare me this and be for one time straightforward to me.

One thing I will say is you asked why myself and Laura never talked to you about it?  Did you talk to us in the same respect and have the decency to confront us about it?  Answer is no so dont call the kettle black.

Alexandros, you should had called both Jason and Laura for a talk, in private, even before opening a Titan case against them both. You, not them. They did nothing wrong, you thought they were doing wrong. You didn't talk to them and now Jason is gone.

My favourite part. Here you can see the origin of the problem. All this started because I was talking with Jason/Laura.
And since Jason has also stated that he generously apoliogized to me back then I will also state what sort of apology that was.
The last chat betwen us was once more one of flames. Sadly.
I then asked Jason openly (knowing what Ays has told me) what all these OOC rumours are that Fleugs is spreading on IRC.
I gave him the chance to tell me. He of course denied it. After the falmes were over someone mediated us (can't remember) and I took Dobromir into personal query.
I told him to calm down and that we should just leave this matter and I told him again, that I just wanted to know if we have clean war and fair gaming. again I didn't say that I knew sth, since I felt that it was his part to come towards me with such an information.
His response was (this is no 1 to 1 exact wording, but I remember it like yesterday): I apologize for what I said, also I want to say that I play with no OOC people I know this game Bam.
Now I had to weigh this apology. Obviously the second part was a lie. Does that mean that the apology was sincere? I couldn't know. The trust was broken and the respect was gone from my side at this moment. And I honestly I didn't care anymore to get deeper into this, as it was not my business to find out if they are together or not. But I saw it as my business as reponsible player to find out if they were cheating.
I then consulted those who I already mentioned and then filed the report. This is where everything started. And to conlude with the part that i already told the Titans: The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this.

When the Titan verdict was done, I abided by it, even though they told me, as Ays correctly stated, that the accounts are linked. I also informed of this verdict the (already listed) people I had told to.
I apologize if this led later to rumours and I fully understand that this is bad, but seriously, from my side, there was never the intention to do so. This you must believe. It may have not been in my hands anymore, have you ever thought of this possibility? And I tried hard to let it not come so far. I had talked to you before the verdict and I always tried to solve this between players first. However, still I apologize for the inconvenience - without but, when, if or similar.

Now, Miriam, I really respect you as player but what have your examples to do with this case? If it's just to create a bad atmosphere against me, then I don't understand why you do it. Although I don't need to I will answer in all shortness to your examples.
Miriam, you are veteran player and I was talking about you in OOC nature about possible scenarios of the war. mainly because Deytheur was not talking to me IC and I wondered why Eponllyn does such an IC harakiri. At no point I told you in OOC to switch to Perdan and forget your RP. In contrary I did understand now why Myrnia hates Perdan and this was for me the end of discussion. One of your players in Eponllyn told me before the war to switch 1-2 entire duchies to Eponllyn in OOC nature and I of course rejected it, as you. As veteran player you often discuss secanrios OOC but everyone knows that IC is always another thing. Please don't paint me here like some petty OOC powergamer. Please, cause you know I am not. And sicne I also did not use the piece of info we are all discussing here, I don#t understand why you wrote this at all.

Second, Aragon, is a young BM player which I mentor in Perdan. It is something else to discuss possible scenarios with a veteran player than luring a new player on IRC to switch sides. At least this is my understanding. Besides the fact that "your women only"-mentality is for me a bit excluding to other players, I certainly did not like that you were trying to get a young player on IRC to change sides like this. If you still think this is ok, we can agree to disagree. And I strongly obeject that i ever said that is ok to lure people in private on OOC. I said that IC luring of people to switch sides is ok, that I can confirm. But please for truth's sake, stick to the truth - everyone.
And I also like Miriam, although I'd wish some more detailed memory of yours to these examples when coming here to a case where I am the defendant.

Thank you very much.

Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Menethil on July 11, 2013, 10:40:04 AM
Then please stop lying in the posts about me in here. I wanted to talk to you before Fleugs posted those logs. You weren't there, I needed to go sleep. On the next day, I could only reach you after those logs were posted. The whole battlemaster-channel is my witness. And actually I see those logs confirming what I already said. Gathering maximum evidence against a player who has been called a cheater by various sides. You also bring your friends in here to post (even irrelevant to the case) things against me, but when I do ask people what you have done to be called a cheater, it is wrong? So much about ethics. Please spare me this and be for one time straightforward to me.

My favourite part. Here you can see the origin of the problem. All this started because I was talking with Jason/Laura.
And since Jason has also stated that he generously apoliogized to me back then I will also state what sort of apology that was.
The last chat betwen us was once more one of flames. Sadly.
I then asked Jason openly (knowing what Ays has told me) what all these OOC rumours are that Fleugs is spreading on IRC.
I gave him the chance to tell me. He of course denied it. After the falmes were over someone mediated us (can't remember) and I took Dobromir into personal query.
I told him to calm down and that we should just leave this matter and I told him again, that I just wanted to know if we have clean war and fair gaming. again I didn't say that I knew sth, since I felt that it was his part to come towards me with such an information.
His response was (this is no 1 to 1 exact wording, but I remember it like yesterday): I apologize for what I said, also I want to say that I play with no OOC people I know this game Bam.
Now I had to weigh this apology. Obviously the second part was a lie. Does that mean that the apology was sincere? I couldn't know. The trust was broken and the respect was gone from my side at this moment. And I honestly I didn't care anymore to get deeper into this, as it was not my business to find out if they are together or not. But I saw it as my business as reponsible player to find out if they were cheating.
I then consulted those who I already mentioned and then filed the report. This is where everything started. And to conlude with the part that i already told the Titans: The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this.

When the Titan verdict was done, I abided by it, even though they told me, as Ays correctly stated, that the accounts are linked. I also informed of this verdict the (already listed) people I had told to.
I apologize if this led later to rumours and I fully understand that this is bad, but seriously, from my side, there was never the intention to do so. This you must believe. It may have not been in my hands anymore, have you ever thought of this possibility? And I tried hard to let it not come so far. I had talked to you before the verdict and I always tried to solve this between players first. However, still I apologize for the inconvenience - without but, when, if or similar.

This whole section is completely bogus.  I was angry at first because I wasnt sure who was spreading the rumors.  This whole section is completely irrelevant and false and I said nothing of the sort.  Either way it has nothing to do with the case.  This is getting very sad.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Lavigna on July 11, 2013, 10:54:05 AM
I believe this thread must get locked. As far as it concerns the case evidence is already brought up  and the case is already under the voting procedure for a verdict.

More posts only bring more drama ,more bickering and make things worse for both parties involved. It has nothing to contribute to the case only extend the amount of bickering.

If there is no intention for the parties to solve this matter between them  and wait for the verdict then i don't see the reason for this discussion to continue.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 19, 2013, 04:05:45 PM
A verdict has been reached, and IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict is:

"After consideration, the Magistrates find the defendant guilty of violating the Social Contract. The evidence and testimony provided point to a disturbing pattern of behavior wherein the defendant repeatedly used OOC avenues of communication to suggest that two other players were cheating, power-gaming or otherwise doing something unethical. Moreover, the defendant also spread rumors about the two players' personal lives in the process while clearly implying that there was something sordid or improper about their behavior. Although the defendant did not make such accusations publicly, the fact that he saw fit to do so privately on multiple occasions and with multiple other players gives this entire episode the character of a subtle campaign of harassment and slander. We believe that this was, in fact, the intended effect of the defendant's actions. This case in many ways epitomizes why the Social Contract forbids publicly accusing others of cheating without proof. The damage such accusations can do to affected players and the atmosphere of the game itself is insidious and not easily countered.

We believe that this behavior has been driven by the defendant's competitive nature. While we recognize that Battlemaster is inherently a PvP game, we also expect the competition to remain friendly at all times. When competitiveness compels a player to cross this line and begin harassing another player in an effort to gain IG advantages, we must intervene and we feel that a strong message is necessary in this case. This situation appears to have been largely driven by an IG conflict between Perdan, ruled by the defendant, and Eponlynn and Caligus, ruled by the players who were his targets. As such, we have determined that we will strip the defendant's titles in Perdan and bar him from regaining them for a period of 1 month. This enforced break from the burdens of being a Ruler is made so that the pressures that have led to this behavior are removed from the picture. In addition, his account will be locked for 3 days, time which we hope will be used by the defendant to take a step back and consider how he might change his behavior in the future.

Magistrates voted 8-0 in favor of a guilty verdict, with 1 vote for stripping the defendant's titles, 5 votes for stripping his titles and applying a 3-day lock, and 2 votes for stripping his titles and applying a 7-day lock.

This thread will remain open for any questions regarding the case.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Atanamir on July 19, 2013, 04:22:27 PM
Dear Magistrates,

first of all, thank you all for the time and effort you have put into this case, I am sure it was not one of your easier ones.
I fully abide by your verdict, I would be a hypocrite to not accept it, since the justice which ruled upon me, is also the justice I entrusted when I filed my complaint in against the accusant. Titans, Magistrates, no matter who it is, I believe you do what is best for this game.
So I abide by your verdict as I always have done till now and repent for the actions in which I have been found guilty.

Second, and most important of all, I want to apologize once more to the two harmed players Jason and Laura and hope that they see the verdict given to me as a just one and I hope that they see this case now as closed as I do.
We shall move forward and even if we might not be the best friends in the future, I certainly hope that I can play at a normal level with hopefully both players in the future again.

I thank you all for your time and I hope that everyone can return hopefully to normal levels now and enjoy this great game.
I will in contrary enjoy a 3 days break and redefine my stance, as the magistrates suggest to me.

Best,
Alexandros aka Atanamir
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Stue (DC) on July 19, 2013, 08:32:41 PM
the last time i remember to report someone for repeatedly accusing someone else for cheating through ooc messages, which would be much heavier misconduct that doing it via irc, the one is "punished" by private warning, and now this, such a severe punishment?!

it is particularly annoying that magistrates are making the case out of some unsportish crying from guy who obviously did not learn losing ig.

i feel this guy atanamir is punished for making some achievements in-game, which is almost blasphemy in current bm situation, where meta-gaming, power-gaming and occ clanning covered almost everything.

this is a shame.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Anaris on July 19, 2013, 08:34:37 PM
the last time i remember to report someone for repeatedly accusing someone else for cheating through ooc messages, which would be much heavier misconduct that doing it via irc, the one is "punished" by private warning, and now this, such a severe punishment?!

Just because it's a more obvious violation of the Social Contract doesn't mean it's a more serious violation.

What Atanamir did here was one of the worst things you can do to someone in BattleMaster, and has resulted in at least one player leaving the game.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Miriam Ics on July 19, 2013, 09:49:42 PM
Everyone have the right to complain, even the ones called "unsportish".

The fact that some still think that this event was not that bad, is a proof itself of how bad it was.
We lose one player. This is serious.
We might lose more. For some, the fun is gone forever. For many, the bad ambiance will last for long time.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Stue (DC) on July 19, 2013, 10:05:12 PM
A note from the Magistrates:

These cases are left open after the verdict is posted for people to productively discuss the verdict or seek clarifications. This is not a license to attack the Magistrates, launch personal attacks on either party to the case, or otherwise complain about the decision. All Magistrate verdicts are final. If you strongly disagree with the verdict your appeal may be sent directly to Tom, and to him only. Criticism will only be accepted if it is constructive.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 19, 2013, 10:25:05 PM
That's enough. You may state your disagreement with the verdict, but you do not have a license to use this opportunity to further smear the victims or accuse the Magistrates of favoritism with absolutely no basis at all for doing so. If you think we are compromised and have any kind of evidence at all, take it up with Tom. Otherwise refrain from making baseless accusations.

Since this nothing productive is coming out of this, I'm locking the thread.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 24, 2013, 06:00:41 PM
I have unlocked this topic to permit further comment.

Please keep any commentary constructive. We will be moderating this very carefully and personal attacks and flames will not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Penchant on July 27, 2013, 03:49:30 AM
While this isn't so much on the case itself, I would like to say I am glad to see someone get punished and accept it without anger, and I am also glad to see the good moderation. Although the only reason to lock it seemed to be Stue (DC) so in the future I find a temporary muting of the offender to be better than locking for 5 days. (I am definitely happy that while you locked it, you unlocked after things have hopefully cooled down, so like 4 stars on moderating.) :)
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: egamma on July 27, 2013, 04:38:44 AM
Although the only reason to lock it seemed to be Stue (DC) so in the future I find a temporary muting of the offender to be better than locking for 5 days.

Muting happens at 50 points; a moderator can only give someone 20 points a day, although Tom can give however many points he wants.

Also, it was the Magistrates doing the moderating, and all they can do is thread maintenance in this subforum, not give points. They did do a good job though.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Deytheur on July 28, 2013, 11:03:23 PM
Thanks for unlocking the topic for comments Geronus. I assure everyone I am not just QQing but trying to be constructive in case something like this happens again and to send a message to deter further harassment.

I want to thank the magistrates for their time spent on this case.

I would like to say though that I am not sure it was enough. The defendant still has 2 Duke Margrave characters in Perdan so he wasn't stripped of all his positions and I'm sure everyone who plays BM will agree that Duke Margraves have a lot of power and influence over the politics of their realm. Losing rulership and keeping those positions isn't much of a punishment. Perdan are still pushing very harsh peace terms against my realm while leaving the other two realms that were at war with them virtually untouched. Before he was locked he eve felt the need to send me an OOC message trying to explain how what they were doing to me was for game balance, which really makes no sense to me and really not necessary if the terms were solely for IG reasons.

I know that I might be a bit biased because it is my realm getting screwed over, in 3 years of BM I haven't seen terms so demanding and that maybe I am being a bit paranoid but it feels like the campaign he launched has had an effect on my reputation and the reputation of my realm and it will last a lot longer than the 3 days he was locked for.

If we look at the increasing number of harassment cases then I think a very hard line needs to be taken to make people really think before going so far. I don't think that locking someone for 3 days really sends the message that harassment really will not be tolerated.

Of course maybe this is just because I am involved and other may disagree but I will quote someone from IRC to finish (someone who by the way is neutral) 'Multicheating gets your whole account locked, it's a shame violating the social contract isn't given the same importance.'
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Blue Star on July 28, 2013, 11:34:27 PM
@Deytheur

You are correct you are not QQing, you are attempting now to push harder for punishment on a player/character who accepted his punishment and regrets what he has done. I have played with and against the umbar family since the umbar's first stepped off their ships and he keeps ooc and IG for the most part separate. I did not speak during his trial for it wasn't my place and I don't know the details of what truly occurred. Though it did get me to finally venture to IRC (interesting truly).

Your realm getting "Screwed" not because of some OOC reason they decided to act against a realm and strike out to attempt to gain lands and squash what realm destroyed Ibby. I would say the demands are steep, but no steeper than the betrayal that was brought to Perdan, 3v1.

Note* The other position was recently acquired, he did not have it prior to the 3 day lock.

Please Lock this thread no good out of it being open obviously can come from it being so.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Miriam Ics on July 29, 2013, 04:18:16 AM
Reading that last answer, having read some posts IC, having read several messages on IRC, I realize that for some people, the punishment was unjust. For me, it was rather unfair. The punishment should have been greater for the damage done.
Accusing someone of being manipulating the game due to personal relationships, to convince other players to believe this lie, change the course of the game based on these allegations, it is serious and no matter what the punishment was, the damage is irreversible.
Siana has no more chance to promote themselves as a character. Laura will always be the one on which it is rumored that took advantage of a personal relationship to achieve results in the game.
Even if Alexandros wrote in big red letters that he was sorry it would not change. This is the big problem of baseless accusations: Once disseminated, can no longer be controlled. There will always be someone who will believe what was spoken.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Deytheur on July 29, 2013, 03:05:16 PM
@Blue Star

No, whatever I say I don't think that the punishment will be changed in this case, like I said, it is for the community to decide if this is really the message we want to send to future cases.

He was meant to be stripped of positions for a month so even if he got it since it is still like the verdict was completely pointless and hasn't been enforced.

Also no, there was no OOC reason for 'betraying' Perdan. It was actually Perdan that first betrayed our realm by conspiring with Westmoor to get our previous Duke of Al Arab to secede. And your argument is slightly flawed as when you say it was betrayed by 3 realms yet it is only us that is losing so much.
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: jaune on July 29, 2013, 03:22:31 PM
I'm not quite on par whats up.

Atanamir got stripped off his throne. And is not able to be king for a month...

I think thats pretty decent punishment and he has shown some good attitude that he understands why he got that and he has apologized.

What you guys want? That he quits? That he nulls all the war efforts Perdan made? or what?

Let it go. Lesson learnt by everybody me thinks.

-jaune
Title: Re: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and
Post by: Geronus on July 29, 2013, 06:39:55 PM
I have opened up a Q&A thread to discuss the issue of verdicts in cases of harassment. If you feel this verdict was too lenient, we want to hear your respectful suggestions:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4944.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4944.0.html)

Someone else locked this thread while I was doing all this, so I am going to re-lock this now - please direct your further feedback to the Q&A thread, but note that it should be directed at the specific question of what we should do about cases like these in the future, not this case specifically. I do not want to re-litigate this.