BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: jaune on July 10, 2013, 11:35:51 AM
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Recently reading forums makes me feel like poop... what a crap playerbase we have. Compalints of cheating, OOC harassing, rage quits, unSMA activity...
Forums have turned to LawMaster, evidences spread to public, private irc chats and logs posted... If i would be intrested about the game and see discussions here at forums, i would skip this game... i wouldnt have time or intrest to play lawmaster too.
I have decided to stop visiting here, cause it really makes me feel like poop... am i really spending my time with people like this? I have also dropped my irc activity to minimum(mainly cause of i'm at vacation and no time for chatting), i dont want my talks posted all over forum. I admit i used to talk a lot at irc, i have even held in character meeting at IRC, just to make it easier to discuss... and then we sent formal messages to each other about the discussion. But really, posting privat chats public is like sharing private letter.
I'm prolly going to stick only IG from now on, and i definately will warn people about the forum discussions, that it has very little anything to do with game itself... atleast i hope so.
-Jaune
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I do share your thoughts to some extent. People seem to take the IC arguments/wars etc that they have very seriously. There's a lot of bad blood on these forums and people who seem to very much despise each other simply for being on opposing sides in a war or what have you. There's no need for it. Keep all of that in game and come to the forum to discuss and analyse what's been happening in a friendly and civil way.
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This stuff all happened on the discussion list, as well, and the RP-list.
The difference with the forums is that people who aren't interested in reading about the Magistrate cases can just not click on that subforum. If you didn't care about certain topics on the discussion list, too bad, you received all the emails anyway.
I have seen so much more good come from the forum and IRC than bad. Basically, you get out of it what you put into it. There are people who will cause problems wherever they go—either individually, or in combination with certain other people that they just can't get along with.
That is not the fault of the communications medium. It is the fault of the people.
There is one thing that can be done better on the forums, and that is moderation. The mods really do need to be more aggressive about shutting down personal attacks and flames, wherever they pop up—though in some cases, like on the current Magistrate case thread, doing so may be somewhat tricky, due to the nature of the case. It's worth remembering that mods have the power to edit posts and remove pieces that are unacceptable, rather than just deleting entire posts.
Anyone who feels that sticking to in-game communication is best for them, that's perfectly fine, and more than fine. The game is the main point of the BattleMaster community, and should be its focus.
For everyone else, the most important thing is to remember that it is just a game, and that even though people's characters may be enemies of your characters in-game, those people are not your enemies. They are fellow players of this game, and the game will thrive best if its players enjoy each other's company and get along together.
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I agree that forums are awesome media to discuss and teach etc. It is just that there is so damn much these magistrate cases, where you basicly need to hire a lawyer to survive and spend like 2 hours a day to defend yourself or your case. OOC & IG are mixed so deeply. IRC talks can be used against people, forum talks can be used against people and punish them for OOG action IG. It just doesnt sound right.
So, i will keep my OOG talks totally out from anything official BM related communications, i dont want to get punished because of my bad jokes or argument with another player... I want to be able to say "You are dickhead!" out of game without being reported to magistrates and whole irc log pasted here.
This all just gives imho, wrong impression what this game is about and what happens in this game, now for outsider it looks like whine-/lawmaster instead of battlemaster.
-Jaune
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Again, if that is what you prefer to do, that is entirely up to you, and I fully support your decision either way.
But that is not what is happening in the current Magistrate case.
This is not a case of Atanamir tossing friendly insults at Dobromir/Menethil. That stuff happens all the time on IRC, as you well know, and I have yet to see anyone even suggest opening a Magistrate case because of it.
This is a case of sustained harassment through multiple channels due to completely OOC factors that are none of Atanamir's business. If my wife were playing BattleMaster, it would not be anyone's business to know who she was in-game, or even that she was in the game. Not even if she were playing as the ruler of a realm that was close to a realm one of my characters ruled. RL is RL, and there is not one single person in BattleMaster who has a right to know anything about what other players do in their RL.
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This is a hard subject. By and large, the forum does not cause these kind of incidents. As Anaris says, they happened back on the old e-mail list as well. And they occasionally happen on IRC. Or IG. Or on MSN/Yahoo/whatever. People got pissed off all the time, and had huge arguments IG. We had some epic flamefests on the DList.
The reason they seem so bad now, is because the forum allows much easier viewing, and in away brings them out into the public eye on a much more widespread basis. Many more people participate on the forum than on the old DList, or in any single realm.
The forum is a great opportunity to build a community. It is rather sad that so many people feel the need to abuse it, and that they have a right to be !@#$%^&s here. I've tried to start some threads among the moderators regarding a moderation policy, but they never got any traction. I would be happy to participate in a moderation policy thread, if anyone thinks they have some good ideas on how to approach it.
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To an extent, I share Juane's opinions of irc. When the link to it first appeared on the BM side-menu I dipped my toe into irc to see what it was all about. I quickly decided it wasn't worth my time and haven't been back since. I'm sure I might just have entered it when the people there were in a bad mood with each other, but it didn't cast a good light on the game. In a different thread, Revan questioned whether there should be the 'offical' link to irc on the BM menu, and I support what he said in saying that there shouldn't. I know that a handful of players get enjoyment from irc, but it's not representative of the in-game atmosphere and could turn new players off.
As far as the forums go, I agree with Anaris about more active moderation. In the end, if you point players in the direction of more civil and polite conduct through the moderation, I suspect it would improve the whole atmosphere. Personally, I tend to steer clear of the discussions that are "my realm is better than your realm" because I know they eventually degenerate into pointless arguments.
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Often it is also that the kind of people that act like jerks also shout the loudest and therefore the image projected is somewhat biased.
Also, people often take note when the read something not very nice but pay less attention when people are being nice or neutral. And so they remember the bad things and they seem to be the majority.
For a while I have been thinking that more aggressive moderation would be a good thing.
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What Dytheur said.
In customer service they always drill into your head that the customer will remember the bad before the good, no matter how much good outweighs the bad. That applies to life in general too, I'd say. So, while the shouting angry majority is memorable and, yes, it creates a bad first impression for anyone who comes to the forum or IRC prior to the game, that doesnt mean there isnt any good under there.
A flat moderation policy would be nice, I think. Locking threads that get out of hand seems to be happening at least, though maybe it can be more universal depending on how much time the mod team has to devote to keeping track of active threads. Do we have anything in place to suspend people for poor conduct or ban repeat offenders?
Overall, my IRC experience, brief as it was, was pleasant enough. I just don't have the patience for idling IRC to jump in on conversations as they happen. My forum experience is also mostly pleasant, but since I read more than I post, I can choose to just stop reading a thread that looks to be derailing into a flamefest.
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I have started a thread in the Moderation sub-forum (should be hidden from non-mods) to start to work up a more formal policy on how to deal with the sort of negativity and toxicity that we want to get rid of.
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I'm personally of the opinion that we should start to use the new UserID field in our profiles a bit more to be honest to link forum accounts to game accounts so that warnings on your forum account will have consequences against your game account should you not stop.
In one other browser game I played, you basically had 5 chances on the forums before they not only banned your forum account but deleted your game account as well. This also worked in reverse as well, if you committed infractions with your game account via the messaging system it contributed to this limit of 5. I don't recall if there were punishments for hitting 3 or 4 warnings but there should be.
I know it sounds draconian, and it is. But as far as moderation on forums and IRC has ever gone I've always been zero tolerance and do not stand for crap, full stop. And I'm very aware that it may scare people off using the boards in fear of them being punished. But in a similar token it will remind people to be civil and courteous instead of risking getting a warning.
That said, you could use a similar system without linking it to a game account as well, with different punishments for each level of warning. Say a private warning for first offence, public reprimand for second, all the way up to a forum permaban for the fifth.
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Not to potentially derail this, but as an addition:
To what extent is prejudice (racism, sexism, etc.) monitored and controlled for BM? Should such behavior be reported and modded (or whatever the punishment becomes), or is it the view that it's not our job to keep that in check? (I don't think it's wrong to leave it alone because it's unlikely you can have a positive effect on such a person through these simple measures and the mods/magistrates/titans are not babysitters.)
I know there was a topic about racism IG, but I don't know how that turned out other than those dirty elves deserve everything they get.
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I'd say it depends on the nature of the racism/sexism. While being excessively abusive to someone is probably wrong in all cases, IC racism against elves, vikings, riombarans, ohnarians, asylonians etc. should be fine. Racism that is evidently based on OOC ideas is not okay.
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Not to potentially derail this, but as an addition:
To what extent is prejudice (racism, sexism, etc.) monitored and controlled for BM? Should such behavior be reported and modded (or whatever the punishment becomes), or is it the view that it's not our job to keep that in check? (I don't think it's wrong to leave it alone because it's unlikely you can have a positive effect on such a person through these simple measures and the mods/magistrates/titans are not babysitters.)
I know there was a topic about racism IG, but I don't know how that turned out other than those dirty elves deserve everything they get.
Overall, I have seen very, very little of this in the BM community, especially as compared to the simple personal animosity.
That said, I think that if it shows up, it should be treated basically the same as other toxic behaviour.
Note that truly in-character racism and sexism is fine—but it does need to really be in-character, not just a thinly-veiled jab at a real race or real women.
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Well, i think i got a bit misunderstood. I like to chat at irc... but what i dont like my chats oog, is brought here to forums and possible mixed with IG actions or behaviour.
IRC is awesome place to meet people and chat IG nad OOG things... but those should not be sort of public information. I can be total poophead at IRC, i can be kidding with bad taste... but i would have never ever thought that my sayings at IRC could bring me to case of magistrates or titans.... or that my IRC chitty chatty could effect IG something, unless agreed with other people whom i chat...
What i meant, was that if you look recent posts, there is awfull lot reports and crying how people cheat/harass other people.. it has become some sort of competition and metagame to use magistrates and titans... and sometimes just for getting nice little lawyer game going. What i try to say, people should stop to be so damn sensitive and search with spyglass something to report and argue OOC/OOG...
There was times when reports were because of abuses of game system, not that someone is calling other for names, if someone is really harassing others OOCly it most of the times is only making him/herself redicilous.
I thought i take this game too seriously... but whadda heck, people argue over life or honor of the peasant who is only byte and bits on some server and are worried how they get raped... I understand if someone is somehow freak and flips IC about it, but being uppsett OOC...
World has trillion things to offer for you to get uppsett, but same time it gives you trillion things to get excited, ignore those things which makes you uppsett and enjoy those exciting things...
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As a moderator, I welcome reports. You see something you don't like--even if it's not directed at you--report it. We can give someone 5 points, or 10, or 15, or 20 points, depending on the severity of the offense. And they don't get muted until they hit 50 points. So if you see something you don't like, don't feel bad about clicking that "report to moderator" link.
On the other hand, just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean you should report that to moderator. I don't care if they think your ideas are wrong. I DO care if they say that YOU are stupid (etc, etc). We have warned at least one person for trying to use moderator reports to "get back at" someone whose opinion differed from their own.
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Yes, it isn't that common, but I have seen it and wondered what the appropriate action was. What about information that is IG? How should that be reported?
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The best option, for any post, is to send the offender a PM, and politely ask them to remove or rewrite the portion of the post that you object to.
I'm of the mind that once it's out there, assume everyone has read it; then there's no point in having the information removed. Probably best to just change your plans and just treat the situation as misinformation.
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The best option, for any post, is to send the offender a PM, and politely ask them to remove or rewrite the portion of the post that you object to.
I'm of the mind that once it's out there, assume everyone has read it; then there's no point in having the information removed. Probably best to just change your plans and just treat the situation as misinformation.
I meant letters between characters, whether the letter is marked OOC or not. For example, if Player A sends a letter IG to his realm as a whole that appears offensive on an OOC level (due to prejudice), where / how should that be reported? It's impossible to remove it or change it once it has been sent.
Assume as well the attempt made to ask for an OOC apology failed. (I'm a big proponent of the idea that we should solve personal disputes individually before seeking the harsher actions.)
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I'm of the mind that once it's out there, assume everyone has read it; then there's no point in having the information removed. Probably best to just change your plans and just treat the situation as misinformation.
I disagree.
For one thing, if it's no longer there, it cannot be replied to or quoted, and those who have not yet read it—which, depending on the speed of the scrubbing, could be a high percentage—will no longer have the chance to see it.
This is as true of inflammatory language as it is of "leaks" from IC.
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I disagree.
For one thing, if it's no longer there, it cannot be replied to or quoted, and those who have not yet read it—which, depending on the speed of the scrubbing, could be a high percentage—will no longer have the chance to see it.
This is as true of inflammatory language as it is of "leaks" from IC.
I'm happy to remove inflammatory language. But IC letters? Is posting them a violation of the social contract, IRs, or any other rule? How can the moderators know which IC letters are okay to post, and which they need to remove?
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I do agree that there's a whole lot too much law-mongering and OOC-playing going on. People want to win at any costs, including attacking their enemies on the forum and elsewhere.
That needs to stop. We really need a couple wars and destroyed realms, especially on the more stagnant islands, to shake things up and people out of this mindset.
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I do agree that there's a whole lot too much law-mongering and OOC-playing going on. People want to win at any costs, including attacking their enemies on the forum and elsewhere.
That needs to stop. We really need a couple wars and destroyed realms, especially on the more stagnant islands, to shake things up and people out of this mindset.
I'm afraid we may need more than that, for this and other reasons...
The player density is still very low, Tom. We may yet need to resort to stronger measures to push it back up to less upsetting values in order to make BattleMaster play like it's supposed to.
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I'm afraid we may need more than that, for this and other reasons...
The player density is still very low, Tom. We may yet need to resort to stronger measures to push it back up to less upsetting values in order to make BattleMaster play like it's supposed to.
Daimonic invasions for everyone? :D
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I do agree that there's a whole lot too much law-mongering and OOC-playing going on. People want to win at any costs, including attacking their enemies on the forum and elsewhere.
That needs to stop. We really need a couple wars and destroyed realms, especially on the more stagnant islands, to shake things up and people out of this mindset.
You know, this may very well be a partial consequence of the Magistrate system... I think the predisposition to abuse it is there on the part of some people, but the public nature of the Magistrate system may also encourage it to some extent as its far more visible than the Titan system ever was.
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Daimonic invasions for everyone? :D
Nah. Time to press that reset button!
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@Eirikr: if someone sends something IG, the proper place to report is is the Magistrates. If they say something on the forum, then report it to the Forum moderators using the link on that post.
And please, do report thing on the forum you think are inappropriate. One or another forum mod may not object to something, but another user may. In that case, it is important to let the mods know how you feel.
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You know, this may very well be a partial consequence of the Magistrate system... I think the predisposition to abuse it is there on the part of some people, but the public nature of the Magistrate system may also encourage it to some extent as its far more visible than the Titan system ever was.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Which is also what I said when the switch over to the Magistrates was being debated.
I'd also note that I think the BM player population has changed. It seems to me our average age has gone up as the game's complexity and seriousness has risen.
I'll also say: I think some of the problem with the forum is that people don't use the ignore feature enough. I ignored Glaumring (or whatever his username is now) months ago after I felt like everything he said just ticked me off, and it's been a great decision. I don't mean that as a dig at Glaumring: I'm not even sure the problem was really him, it may well have been me. It's just that I needed to create space. I think many players would benefit from using the ignore feature on players they persistently find themselves hostile with.
Also, soapbox: people should work to avoid always playing with the same people all the time creating game-wide factions.
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I'll also say: I think some of the problem with the forum is that people don't use the ignore feature enough.
Unfortunately, I do not believe that feature is well-known or easily discoverable.
I also believe that the "report to moderate" feature is significantly underused...
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Also, soapbox: people should work to avoid always playing with the same people all the time creating game-wide factions.
I agree with almost all Vellos said but this specially.
We need to change teams more often but, it is not easy to find new groups in which we feel comfortable and also, when we try, there's is always one that played with you before and that act as you are that old char.
Anyway, forum and IRC are not the problem, we are and I don't know what is the solution. To hid the magistrate cases can be one solution to reduce complains and discussions but, I can also see many disadvantages for doing this. One of them would be that people will not feel pressed to tell the truth once only magistrates will see it.
But then again, I trust our players so, this might not happen.
I might be wrong but I can see more people agreeing with moderation that discussing it so, more moderation can be a solution.
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Unfortunately, I do not believe that feature is well-known or easily discoverable.
I also believe that the "report to moderate" feature is significantly underused...
Would it be possible to put an "Ignore this user" option on peoples' posts beside the "report to moderator" function?
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I agree with almost all Vellos said but this specially.
We need to change teams more often but, it is not easy to find new groups in which we feel comfortable and also, when we try, there's is always one that played with you before and that act as you are that old char.
Anyway, forum and IRC are not the problem, we are and I don't know what is the solution. To hid the magistrate cases can be one solution to reduce complains and discussions but, I can also see many disadvantages for doing this. One of them would be that people will not feel pressed to tell the truth once only magistrates will see it.
But then again, I trust our players so, this might not happen.
I might be wrong but I can see more people agreeing with moderation that discussing it so, more moderation can be a solution.
It is becoming harder and harder not to play with the same people. We aren't really getting enough new players for that. Maybe that is one of the reasons why we are having this issue when we didn't have before. Or maybe we are having this problem now since there are more ways to interact with other players oocly.
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I might be wrong but I can see more people agreeing with moderation that discussing it so, more moderation can be a solution.
I did suggest a method of harsher moderation, and it does seem a couple of people think it's time for more strict measures to bring the game back in balance, so to speak. I'll repost it here in case anyone didn't see it. That being said, it's clear from what Ban said that there is a points system in place - this could be converted or changed as people see fit. Say 10 points per offence, maximum of 50 before the strongest actions are taken.
I'm personally of the opinion that we should start to use the new UserID field in our profiles a bit more to be honest to link forum accounts to game accounts so that warnings on your forum account will have consequences against your game account should you not stop.
In one other browser game I played, you basically had 5 chances on the forums before they not only banned your forum account but deleted your game account as well. This also worked in reverse as well, if you committed infractions with your game account via the messaging system it contributed to this limit of 5. I don't recall if there were punishments for hitting 3 or 4 warnings but there should be.
I know it sounds draconian, and it is. But as far as moderation on forums and IRC has ever gone I've always been zero tolerance and do not stand for crap, full stop. And I'm very aware that it may scare people off using the boards in fear of them being punished. But in a similar token it will remind people to be civil and courteous instead of risking getting a warning.
That said, you could use a similar system without linking it to a game account as well, with different punishments for each level of warning. Say a private warning for first offence, public reprimand for second, all the way up to a forum permaban for the fifth.
There is one other problem, mind. For any change to work, everyone must be on board and treated somewhat equally. That means no immunity from the rules for anyone except Tom himself. As far as in-game options go I'm thinking about what Tom said. Has it been suggested in the past regarding a "Total War" kind of option or declaration - as in war until destruction rather than surrender? I wouldn't want to draft a feature request if it's been rejected before or if it's unworkable in the eyes of the devs.
(On that note, I recall making a topic a long time ago about a similar subject as this, namely the fact I felt that there needed to be stricter moderation and people in general, no matter who they are, needed to stop being so venomous to one-another. It generally apart from some discussion was ignored which is par for the course, really.)
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I do agree that there's a whole lot too much law-mongering and OOC-playing going on. People want to win at any costs, including attacking their enemies on the forum and elsewhere.
That needs to stop. We really need a couple wars and destroyed realms, especially on the more stagnant islands, to shake things up and people out of this mindset.
Luckily Dwilight now has a good war going on, and things seem mostly civil. Of course that may change when one side(s) starts to lose.
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Luckily Dwilight now has a good war going on, and things seem mostly civil. Of course that may change when one side(s) starts to lose.
I would be unpleasantly surprised if that happened. I know a lot of the players on all sides. I think everyone's grown up enough not to let it go there, though who can say for sure. There's a lot at stake, after all.
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I think we need to push one basic principle through to people:
Insults exist in the ears of the RECEIVER, not the speaker.
If someone is insulting you, the first thing you should do is ask him to stop. Not shoot back and end with "and now STFU", but politely and firmly explain to him that what he says is insulting to you and please stop doing that.
And on the other side, if someone tells you that he feels hurt by your words, you need to stop. Period. Not argue about whether or not it's an insult. Just stop and go elsewhere.
I'm sick and tired beyond what I have words for of the constant bickering and arguing. I think it used to be better before when I was handling more of these issues myself because I could make a quick and final decision. And while they were probably no better then what the Titans and Magistrates decide, it was faster and it was final and thus people didn't argue so much about it.
Really, from my perspective, it isn't so much the occasional insult that's creating the toxic atmosphere, it's the two months of arguments that follow.
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Really, from my perspective, it isn't so much the occasional insult that's creating the toxic atmosphere, it's the two months of arguments that follow.
I agree with all you said, Tom, but this, is perfect.
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Insults exist in the ears of the RECEIVER, not the speaker.
If someone is insulting you, the first thing you should do is ask him to stop. Not shoot back and end with "and now STFU", but politely and firmly explain to him that what he says is insulting to you and please stop doing that.
And on the other side, if someone tells you that he feels hurt by your words, you need to stop. Period. Not argue about whether or not it's an insult. Just stop and go elsewhere.
+1000
I think personally, it needs to be dealt between the two parties then if it continues it should go further then to the magistrates or titans or Tom. The idea is to play as friends if not family. No one said we had to get along with eachother... we just have to be civil and play fair and follow the Rules....
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I think irc is the worst thing that exist for BM. My opinion is that it creates secret circles between players and spreads rumours and lies as well as spreading in game knowledge some characters should not be able to know.
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I agree that IRC brings players together and some might think "He is good fella, i could create char to realm he is in!"
But those who use OOC info obtained from IRC or are spreading poopy rumours, would do it anyway. IRC has been there since beginning... i think, atleast as far as i have played... or atleast some realms had their own channels.
So, it is not irc's fault cheesy things happens, it is the people. Same thing as RL guns, it is man behind the gun who causes the damage, not the gun itself.
-Jaune
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My opinion is that it creates secret circles between players and spreads rumours and lies as well as spreading in game knowledge some characters should not be able to know.
That is not opinion. That is a false fact.
An opinion would be "IRC is a hive of scum and villainy."
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An opinion would be "IRC is a hive of scum and villainy."
No, that is a true fact.
spreading in game knowledge some characters should not be able to know.
And it happens I've seen exactly this and, when I was newer to BM and didn't have as firm a grasp of IC/OOC distinctions, did it a fair bit myself.
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I think irc is the worst thing that exist for BM. My opinion is that it creates secret circles between players and spreads rumours and lies as well as spreading in game knowledge some characters should not be able to know.
Back when I was a newbie player, in my very first realm, quite a few of the players there had this exact same opinion of IRC as you. In fact, they hated it so much, they refused to use it. "All that chatting is bad for the game. They form their own cliques, and band together."
So you know what they did?
They all went over to MSN and hung out in their own private chat rooms. Doing the exact same thing they accused all the IRCers of doing.
And now, people come here to the forums, and do all that stuff, too.
The medium that people use to talk to others isn't the problem. People talk. They will do it over any medium to which they have access. To accuse one medium of being somehow worse than the others is to blind yourself to human nature.
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Back when I was a newbie player, in my very first realm, quite a few of the players there had this exact same opinion of IRC as you. In fact, they hated it so much, they refused to use it. "All that chatting is bad for the game. They form their own cliques, and band together."
So you know what they did?
They all went over to MSN and hung out in their own private chat rooms. Doing the exact same thing they accused all the IRCers of doing.
And now, people come here to the forums, and do all that stuff, too.
The medium that people use to talk to others isn't the problem. People talk. They will do it over any medium to which they have access. To accuse one medium of being somehow worse than the others is to blind yourself to human nature.
I remember when people were trying to get others on msn... however, IRC is and will forever be questionable as well as any outlet. Plain and simple.
Sadly I finally logged in IRC and am attempting to try it out. I'm making a effort since it's on that left side bar I tend to ignore unless im on a character. Has that thing always been there? If it has I need to start wearing my glasses or contacts more often.
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Back when I was a newbie player, in my very first realm, quite a few of the players there had this exact same opinion of IRC as you. In fact, they hated it so much, they refused to use it. "All that chatting is bad for the game. They form their own cliques, and band together."
So you know what they did?
They all went over to MSN and hung out in their own private chat rooms. Doing the exact same thing they accused all the IRCers of doing.
And now, people come here to the forums, and do all that stuff, too.
The medium that people use to talk to others isn't the problem. People talk. They will do it over any medium to which they have access. To accuse one medium of being somehow worse than the others is to blind yourself to human nature.
They used MSN? Dear god I thought that had died out ages ago...
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Split off the posts about the Hatred diplomatic state into a new thread.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4439.0.html
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Split off the posts about the Hatred diplomatic state into a new thread.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4439.0.html
Thank you.
I also wanted to echo the others in saying Tom's pretty spot-on. It's one of the hardest things to do both in game and in real life, but sometimes you have to accept that you'll never change the other person's mind. That doesn't mean either of you are right, but that nothing positive will come out of further discussion.
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There's one more thing to the "playing as friends" part.
If you had a bunch of friends over, and two of them got into a nasty argument in front of everyone else, wouldn't you think everyone would call on them to stop? Not taking sides, just tell them "stop it, both of you!".
That needs to happen a lot more often in BM.
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If you had a bunch of friends over, and two of them got into a nasty argument in front of everyone else, wouldn't you think everyone would call on them to stop? Not taking sides, just tell them "stop it, both of you!".
For what it's worth, I tried to do exactly that when the OOC situation on East Continent started to get out of control. No one listened, but I did try.
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I'm sick and tired beyond what I have words for of the constant bickering and arguing. I think it used to be better before when I was handling more of these issues myself because I could make a quick and final decision. And while they were probably no better then what the Titans and Magistrates decide, it was faster and it was final and thus people didn't argue so much about it.
Really, from my perspective, it isn't so much the occasional insult that's creating the toxic atmosphere, it's the two months of arguments that follow.
This. In fact i believe that the public discussionw on cases, the fact everyone can drop his opinion in it and generaly the way we Magistrates handle the cases hasn't helped much.
I do get the idea that people can aid with feedback on a case but that most of the times creates the bickering.
I think it was way better the way Titans worked. Complain filled, Titans looked into it and searched for evidence and decide.Simple, fast and most of the times effective.
The fact for example that one player brings forth his complain and some people will defend him at all costs cause they like the player or because they don't like the player for whom the complain is about, the fact that some will jump and say his complain is childish or make it look bigger than it is... creates bickering that goes on and on and on.
Maybe we should consider some changes on the way these complains shoul be handled.
I do not comment the rest of Tom's wise words since i believe it is obvious we all SHOULD try and solve problems before they become complains in a civil way and by handling them between us first.
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Simple, fast and most of the times effective.
This was the problem. The Titans were not fast for many years, because there were too few of them. The system started out great, but it didn't keep up with the changing playerbase. As the Titans one by one went inactive or just stopped caring, they weren't replaced, and so the system bogged down and became unresponsive and useless.
Only more recently, with the majority of cases shifted to the Magistrates and the devs handling multicheater investigations (which are 99% of the remainder) have things started to move again among the Titans.
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This was the problem. The Titans were not fast for many years, because there were too few of them. The system started out great, but it didn't keep up with the changing playerbase. As the Titans one by one went inactive or just stopped caring, they weren't replaced, and so the system bogged down and became unresponsive and useless.
Only more recently, with the majority of cases shifted to the Magistrates and the devs handling multicheater investigations (which are 99% of the remainder) have things started to move again among the Titans.
Oh i didn't know that, i was absent for quite sometime from the game and since then never followed the Titans..but even if this was the case, with the Magistrates now and the amount of bickering that came up in severa cases, most in those that were followed with acount deletions, things are not that fast.Also many insult- cases come up more frequently and those cases do tend to find their way to a solution pretty late.
The thing is that this open to public -trial kind of thing is becoming what Tom hates irl, a bunch of lawyers bickering.
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You are definitely correct. The Magistrates need to keep a tighter control on the Cases board. That board should be heavily moderated by the Magistrates.
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You are definitely correct. The Magistrates need to keep a tighter control on the Cases board. That board should be heavily moderated by the Magistrates.
+1.
I also think perhaps there should be more specifics in how the Magistrates interact with each other. I remember a recent case where two magistrates got into a public argument over whether or not they should lock a thread. They were insulting each other and engaging in the exact sort of acrimonious behavior that they should be preventing in the first place. It certainly does not set a positive example for player interactions when the legal authorities fail to be civil toward one another.
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I'd rather see harsher moderation than thread locks. Irrelevant/insulting/trolling posts should be met with a warning then a fairly long forum-account lock. Democratic trials for the game, an iron-handed tyranny for the forum!
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I don't recall the Titans' conduct ever being quite that acrimonious, though I was only a Titan for a year or so (maybe less, I forget). It seemed like a pretty good system back then but I wasn't around for whatever caused the Magistrates to be born.
I will say that one thing I appreciated about the Titans that seems less the case with the Magistrates is that the Titans' characters had a lower profile. The magistrates sometimes seem like an OOC version of some of the big IC personas in the game. Several of the Titans definitely had characters with high profiles, but maybe it was just that we always emailed each other and so it wasn't our IG names or forum names that were pasted to everything...it just had a feel of 'hey guys, what should we do about this' and not 'wasn't that the same guy who was just celebrating his realm kicking ass.'
Maybe the distinction was mostly cosmetic or maybe this stuff matters to me more than it should. I've also never been a magistrate. I just know that it was easier to compartmentalize a lot of game issues when emailing another human being and addressing them by their name.
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I will say that one thing I appreciated about the Titans that seems less the case with the Magistrates is that the Titans' characters had a lower profile. The magistrates sometimes seem like an OOC version of some of the big IC personas in the game. Several of the Titans definitely had characters with high profiles, but maybe it was just that we always emailed each other and so it wasn't our IG names or forum names that were pasted to everything...it just had a feel of 'hey guys, what should we do about this' and not 'wasn't that the same guy who was just celebrating his realm kicking ass.'
This is correct. It happens and it actually happens because this public way of dealing things pretty much ends to it. First of all if we take a real trial as example .... not every one can drop and say his opinion, a trial shouldn't become a discussion....it brings personal opinions forth more than actual evidence and to the point that even the Magistrates forget who they are in all this chit chat. Of course i am not pointing fingers , i include myself to this.
Only people relevant to a case should be able to comment , only people who can actually add something to the case itself.What someone may heard, or dealt with in a similar yet different case shouldn't be used, it brings the personal opinion to the surface more than the evidence itself so instead of aiding it actually works against a good judgement by the Magistrates.
To be honest i am not all that happy with how this works. Yes we should be harsher and not allow bickering but i think that every "personal opinion" or any defending line of that kind should be prohibited. It creates an atmosphere that has nothing to do with a "trial" , because it is supposed to be one in a way ,and it leads to impressions that most of the times are wrong.
Also a thing that pretty much upsets me is stating the opinion of how childish or meaningless someone believes that a complain is.
This is not the case.Some people do find offensive certain things that other may not.No one can judge that. We can judge wether it is a violation or not, but how childish it is or not or how important it is to the person that fills the complain cannot be judged by any of us.
Anyway, i believe the forum is not the problem here, the problem is that all this publicity either it is a simple forum discussion, an irc discussion or a complain gets consumed due to the publicity itself. The more people that receive such info the more it gets discussed and reproduced so ending up in bickering is a natural result.
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Appealing to people's interests might be a solution.
If the moderation policy is something like "comment on the case only. present evidence, not opinions. no insulting or belittling of anyone. violations of these rules will get your post REMOVED, even if it has good arguments and evidence, so keep to the rules or you only hurt your own argument."
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Appealing to people's interests might be a solution.
If the moderation policy is something like "comment on the case only. present evidence, not opinions. no insulting or belittling of anyone. violations of these rules will get your post REMOVED, even if it has good arguments and evidence, so keep to the rules or you only hurt your own argument."
That sounds more like a real trial, so I definitely support it. I think something to that effect would work well in assisting the defendants, complainants, and even the magistrates themselves in being more objective.
For example, I tried my best to give an unbiased testimony in the OOC Harassment case of Menethil vs. Atanamir. Unfortunately, as with my call for civility, some parties interpreted my words as either supporting or condemning one side or the other, which was not my intent at all.
If the parties involved in Magistrate Cases could be assured that witnesses are obligated by Magistrate Rules to give unbiased and objective testimony (or none at all), then perhaps it would reduce the level of acrimony.
To perhaps take it a step further, might it be prudent to discuss enacting a protocol where Magistrates whose characters will be personally effected by their own decisions may be obligated to recuse themselves? Is that already a part of the code of conduct for Magistrates? Or would it be too difficult to enforce? Because if the Magistrate's characters could potentially benefit from their own ruling, wouldn't it be safe to say that it is a conflict of interest?
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Appealing to people's interests might be a solution.
If the moderation policy is something like "comment on the case only. present evidence, not opinions. no insulting or belittling of anyone. violations of these rules will get your post REMOVED, even if it has good arguments and evidence, so keep to the rules or you only hurt your own argument."
Honestly that is going a bit too far, as that means we can lose evidence. In that situation I believe the moderators should remove the offending statements while leaving in the evidence.
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To perhaps take it a step further, might it be prudent to discuss enacting a protocol where Magistrates whose characters will be personally effected by their own decisions may be obligated to recuse themselves? Is that already a part of the code of conduct for Magistrates? Or would it be too difficult to enforce? Because if the Magistrate's characters could potentially benefit from their own ruling, wouldn't it be safe to say that it is a conflict of interest?
This has happened in some cases without the need of a rule. Magistrates chose to abstain because there was a conflict of interest, if we can call it that way. But yes i wouldn't mind if that actually became a rule which of course will remind a lot the way the Titans worked, meaning they were excluded from continents in which they had characters and such.
What i could suggest but i m afraid to do so because i fear it will become too much of a real life trial is the following.
Complainant and defendant once the case is open can bring 3 names each to support the case.Call people to testify for them that is.
Those people will be heard only if they have real evidence to bring forth.
In a real trial this is how it works . Testimonies come either from people that can bring evidence to support a case , some are what we call eye witnesses , others are simply stating what they know from a third party ( no need to say those aren't always reliable but are still valid to be brought forth).
I am suggesting this knowing it is a bit too far but i am trying to find a solution that will benefit both sides when their case is public and at the mercy of everyone who reads it in the forum.
Those cases are important not only because the verdict does become a rule itself in some way but also because the verdict leaves a "mark" to both the defendant and the complainant once the verdict is reached. Both should have the right to see their perspective enforced as long as there is a valid reason for it to be enforced and not just a comment like " he is a good guy , he would never do that" or " i know him, he sucks as a player and it doesn't surprises me". This is WRONG.
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Honestly that is going a bit too far, as that means we can lose evidence. In that situation I believe the moderators should remove the offending statements while leaving in the evidence.
If you remove all of it once or twice, it will never happen again, at least not with same players around.
This can make cases really more evident and clear for the magistrates to judge.
I still have doubts if will not be better to have the cases handled away form everyone or even if magistrates should have a second account just for this, a anonymous account.
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Honestly that is going a bit too far, as that means we can lose evidence. In that situation I believe the moderators should remove the offending statements while leaving in the evidence.
We can always copy the posts into the Backroom area if we need to.
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If you remove all of it once or twice, it will never happen again, at least not with same players around.
This can make cases really more evident and clear for the magistrates to judge.
I still have doubts if will not be better to have the cases handled away form everyone or even if magistrates should have a second account just for this, a anonymous account.
Ι like the idea of doing it in a non public way and anonymously but that wouldn't be all different from the Titans? I mean apart the different case handling.Not sure this is what Tom wants.
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I did not understand exactly why Titans were replaced with magistrates and why Tom want it open to all but I always liked the system of the titans.
Maybe a mix of both would work better: all cases posted at forum but evidences and testimonies sent in PM and at the end the results and decision.
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The Titans were the subject of a lot of anger and resistance due to the secret nature of the system. No one ever knew when a case was brought, and no one ever had any real input into it. You couldn't defend yourself against an accusation, nor support your accusation. In addition, the results were never publicized (beyond the IG message in realm where the punishment was enacted), and the entire process was secret. When a ruling came out that was puzzling, there was never any way to resolve the confusion regarding some rulings.
The Magistrate system was intended to do sever things: Bring the process out into the open, establish a set of precedents that could be reviewed by the players, allow more players the opportunity to participate in the system, and let the community have some input into steering the game.
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I see... Make sense for me, but at same time, exposing the magistrates is not good for their characters and even the players itself. I read already somewhere about how to make sure the magistrates are impartial.
Being anonymous, they would be protected.
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I see... Make sense for me, but at same time, exposing the magistrates is not good for their characters and even the players itself. I read already somewhere about how to make sure the magistrates are impartial.
Being anonymous, they would be protected.
Again, that system was tried: anonymity protected the Magistrates, but it didn't actually make the system work better.
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This is why we might benefit from some rules regarding conduct to ensure the objectivity of the participants. Basically, we need to discourage emotive, inflammatory, or otherwise non-constructive input, so that the Magistrates will have an easier time sifting through the crap to find the truth at the heart of the matter.
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Again, that system was tried: anonymity protected the Magistrates, but it didn't actually make the system work better.
But protect them, and they should be protected so, we can try to do this and change other things. I am sure you know how easy it is to have someone extending his feelings against the character to the player itself.
I believe we should do what Lavigna said: Only people relevant to a case should be able to comment, only people who can actually add something to the case itself. Some cases would be easy, some will need a whole realm posting testimonies, but we will not have a lot of people posting their personal opinion about the matter.
What I can think about is:
- all cases open
- magistrates anonymous
- magistrates discuss in private if the case is valid or not and who are the persons involved
- x number of testimonies
- open verdict and conclusion
- no one is allowed to talk about this anymore
What worries me is that we shouldn't even have to have magistrates and cases. What Tom said is very true. If someone start to do something wrong, people around need to stop him/her right away. With big red letters. OOC in game, OOC in IRC and even OOC in PM here.
Look how many cases we have recently. This need to stop. That's why I think some cases shouldn't even go ahead.
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The problem with that, Miriam ICS, is that it puts a great deal of responsibility on everyone to do the right thing. I agree, in as far as I think people should do the right thing. But I am not so naive as to believe they always will, which is why we have systems to take over when the community fails to self-correct.
Like I said earlier, this is exactly what I tried to do in the case of Menethil v. Atanamir. Keyword here is 'tried', because I failed miserably. It could be argued that I even did more harm than good, because without any authority to back up my plea for civility, my words were taken and intentionally misinterpreted by one party solely for the purpose of promoting their side of the case.
One could view the rash of recent cases as evidence of an inherent flaw in the system. This is not a new philosophical position, and, in many situations, not an entirely unjustified one either (especially where frivolous lawsuits are concerned; don't even get me started on the horrors of medical malpractice suits). But I do not think this is one of those situations.
The cases that have been brought up recently have all been valid complaints that were handled appropriately. The problem is not that the community was unable to self-correct before the cases became official; the problem is the community reaction after the cases became official.
I think it's natural to want to tear down the system and start over when something isn't working exactly the way it should. But we're all human beings (I hope), and we will all make mistakes sometime, and thus we need some regulations and policies to keep us in check before we allow our emotions command our decision-making.
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The problem with that, Miriam ICS, is that it puts a great deal of responsibility on everyone to do the right thing. I agree, in as far as I think people should do the right thing. But I am not so naive as to believe they always will, which is why we have systems to take over when the community fails to self-correct.
Whats wrong with great deal of responsibility? We are supposed to be responsible for how we interact with the other players.
Like I said earlier, this is exactly what I tried to do in the case of Menethil v. Atanamir. Keyword here is 'tried', because I failed miserably. It could be argued that I even did more harm than good, because without any authority to back up my plea for civility, my words were taken and intentionally misinterpreted by one party solely for the purpose of promoting their side of the case.
I doubt anyone could say anything in this specific case. Will be a long time before people forget this, if this will ever happen.
One could view the rash of recent cases as evidence of an inherent flaw in the system. This is not a new philosophical position, and, in many situations, not an entirely unjustified one either (especially where frivolous lawsuits are concerned; don't even get me started on the horrors of medical malpractice suits). But I do not think this is one of those situations.
The cases that have been brought up recently have all been valid complaints that were handled appropriately. The problem is not that the community was unable to self-correct before the cases became official; the problem is the community reaction after the cases became official.
I think it's natural to want to tear down the system and start over when something isn't working exactly the way it should. But we're all human beings (I hope), and we will all make mistakes sometime, and thus we need some regulations and policies to keep us in check before we allow our emotions command our decision-making.
I read this topic all over again to remember why we are talking about magistrates now and why I did the suggestion. It seems to many of us that the system need a change to be more effective. I am just trying to help on finding a solution, not trying to tear down all the system.
I am always very concerned about the responsibility that fall over the magistrates and the consequences of them being know players.
My experience in another game was that at some point, moderators and admins was allowed to create fake accounts due to harassment as consequence of what they did as mods.
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My experience in another game was that at some point, moderators and admins was allowed to create fake accounts due to harassment as consequence of what they did as mods.
I don't think there's a requirement that moderators and magistrates link their forum account to their BM account, as long as Tom knows who they are. But I don't think there are very many people who are stupid enough to start harassing a Magistrate or moderator. That's a good way to lose both your BM account and your forum account.
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I don't think I've ever gotten a single result from the titans, most of the reports going without response for months and then simply dismissed because of the age of the report, the rest being hastily rejected over dubious justifications.
It goes without saying that I prefer an accountable group of players, with their identity (and thus biases) publicly known, and their justifications given publicly and following precedents.
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The problem is not that much who, or what does the judging it is just sideroad of the real problem, problem is the amount and type of reporting.
I dont know if it is because we have become so soft skinned that button get pushed every time we even think it could lead some sort of penalty to opposite side.
There seems to be long standing grudges between players, and even some groups... and when these more or less silly things get reported and discussed, those small things become law drama on forums.
People(including me sometimes) is taking this game same time too serious and not serious enough. Too serious to have advantage through reporting in game, and not serious enough to think consencues(? spelling?) of said action.
If i ever get reported, i doubt that i would even try to defend my self, and if i ever have to wonder if something needs to be reported, i rather skip reporting than try to find fancy words to explain it over and over again.
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Again, that system was tried: anonymity protected the Magistrates, but it didn't actually make the system work better.
The current system IS a compromise. The magistrates do have a secret forum for their internal debate, so people get to see the judgement of "the magistrates" and not how they voted individually. That gives them some protection since you can't point fingers at specific magistrates.