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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on July 10, 2013, 06:45:14 PM

Title: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: BattleMaster Server on July 10, 2013, 06:45:14 PM
Summary:Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Violation:Social Contract: Fair Play
World:Atamara
Complainer:TH (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=26113)
About:Jason (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=29572)

Full Complaint Text:
The Player of Jason Elegant along with various other members of the League of the Eagle have contributed to creating a toxic atmosphere for play, and have focused harass and abuse to myself as a player over the course of the past month.


List of contributing players:

Jason Elegant (primary)

Enri Kinsey (secondary)

Ottar Perkeleet (contributing)

Luthor Forbes (contributing)

Zadar Nargath (contributing)

Ivore Whiteblood (contributing)

Virgo Blue Star (contributing)

Archymond Paxwax (contributing, apologized)


The Social Contract reads:


   The basis of the following evidence is that the accused parties have created an atmosphere which is explictly targeted against myself as a player and the use of OOC messages and ongoing themes of OOC content to harass me, ridicule me or my realm, or to convince players using OOC means that my character shouldn't be trusted instead of using IC means.



   Specifically, OOC jabs at my realm's name and the name of my character began a month ago, quickly followed by OOC statements that my character is "evil", "manipulative", "can't be trusted", etc...and the finally adoption of these same OOC comparisons into letters which while given "IC letterhead" are neither *clear* nor *obvious* that it is targeted at my character and not myself the player.



   Overall, this seems to be an orchestrated, group-wide effort by members of the League of the Eagle on Atamara, primarily leaders which includes two rulers, and government members both past and present to harass and ridicule me as a player for taking an IC action. While levels of contribution to this vary, and I believe the punishments (if proven guilty) should vary as well, it is important to remember that a higher standard should be held for government members in this game. They are teaching new players and those below them that such an atmosphere is acceptable.



   Finally, Jason Elegant's player in particular should receive a harsh punishment because he has already been warned by the Magistrates before for this same action. This is a repeated offense. For him at least, I request an extended account lock punishment, and a multi-month ban on government positions. Other government members contributing to this should also not allowed to continue such action, but as contributions to this infraction vary, I'll await further discussion by magistrates on that issue.



   Evidence will follow via a forum post. (easier to format)


Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 10, 2013, 06:45:50 PM
Jason Elegant:
Quote
Letter from Jason Elegant   (12 hours, 9 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (55 recipients)
Brothers,

Please excuse me for interrupting in your political talks. I just want you to tell a story. If any resemblence with any true incidence is found, then it would purely be a coincidence. Here is the story:

Long back, there was a League of the Elite (LoE) consisting of some realms. There was a region called 'Elosta' which belonged to enemy. A treaty was signed between LoE and that enemy (Estonz) to give the region to a new allied realm called 'Real Estonz'. But, suddenly, the lord of 'Elosta' transfered the region to one of the league nations called 'Corio' which was under the influence of an anti league person called 'the one who cannot be named' (TOWCBN). Then TOWCBN got greedy. He refused to honor the treaty of the League. He told that since the region belongs to his duchy, he cant give it to anyone. All the league nations were stunned after hearing this. Nobody expeced this act of betrayal. The league had helped 'Corio' kill 'Hammargays' and steal all its regions and when time came, Corio's top leaders got more and more greedy. Needless to say, no other league nation liked it.

Today, when Corio's regions changed realm, TOWCBN is making such a big fuss about it. He forgets that he will reap whatever he had sowed long back. Moreover, due to two antiqe plans of TOWCBN, league could not defeat its enemy called 'Lightka'. This will never be forgotten by the ones who were betrayed. The only chance of survival of TOWCBN and his fancy name realm is that he helps kill 'Lightka' and bring victory to the League, just like 'Hammargays' were eliminated for him.

So, that was a simple story.

Jason Elegant
Royal of Cagilan Empire

Quote
Letter from Jason Elegant   (8 hours, 57 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (55 recipients)
Yes, actually, 'the one who cannot be named' behaves like a 5 year old. Due to this, he has endangered his whole realm...

Next part of story is that the league knows that TOWCBN had snatched 'Lightka' from its jaws. So, the league proposed that either put Lightka back in its jaws or return back the hammargay's all lands to the league. Needless to say, TOWCBN chose to side with Lightka and his whole fancy name realm was wiped out. Poor fellow destroyed his own realm by back stabbing the league by protecting Lightka and taking all anti league nobles in his realm.

Disclaimer: this part of story has no resemblence to any event happening in future. If similarities are discovered later on, then that would be a coincidence.

Jason Elegant
Royal of Cagilan Empire

Nothing in either of the two above letters makes it even remotely clear that he is referring to Merlin and not myself as a player. He doesn't even once NAME Merlin as the person. Anyone knowledgeable of the event though understands that I'm the only possible target.

His response when called on the fact that he was being offensive:

Quote
Out-of-Character from Jason Elegant   (7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (55 recipients)
lol... Justin, that was funny bro. Its like watching scary movie series :D

Let's chill with a beer !

Wansu Seisan


Enri Kinsey:
Quote
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (29 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)
What's with all these hard-to-remember names? Silnaria? Seriously?!

Why not Silvaria?

Or just go full egomaniac and name the realm Silverfiria?

I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Narnia?

Yangfan Wang
Quote
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (29 days, 10 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)
I'm-Somewhat-Disappointed-It's-Not-Narnia

Yangfan Wang
Quote
Out-of-Character from Enri Kinsey   (29 days, 10 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)
At the risk of pissing off Sean :), let me break character for one more moment to applaud TH's handling of Merlin, who continues to prove that he can play his fellow Corians (sorry, Silnarians) like cheap fiddles.

When Enri writes his memoirs, I do believe he will take full and complete credit for raising such a Machiavellian student. :D

Yangfan Wang

Quote
Letter from Enri Kinsey   (15 days, 10 hours ago)
I only read Tyrant Ottar's message after having sent out mine.

"Silnarnia" has a nice ring to it, though.

In all seriousness, Your Majesty, Prime Minister Torsaan is trying his hardest to convince our Senators to agree to peace with your realm and... your loudmouth is not helping. Several Senators have switched their votes to nay, citing your Countess Raziella's messages.

Assuming that we can push this through the Senate, we'll exchange peace for passage rights with you and then get out of your way. You and Tyrant Ottar can have fun with your staring-contest. The rest of us have Darkans to kill.

Sir Enri Kinsey
General of Cagilan Empire
Quote
Out-of-Character from Jean Luc Kinsey   (16 days, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (56 recipients)
Game mechanics trump RP. Anyway you look at it, CE and Tara are allied with Coria, and Silnaria is the one in rebellion here.

Yangfan Wang

^An attempt to use OOC messages to convince people that the IC discussion is rightfully in their favor.^

Ottar Perkeleet:
Quote
Letter from Ottar Perkeleet   (16 days, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (56 recipients)
I Can't Believe It's Not Merlin...

:)

That were found on trhat scribe too
To me this mean: I have never asked that any of our infils will go after any Royals so I will not say yes to this question. I want that they will make the first move against us before we will make ours.. That we will wait until Narnia will attack against us and every desent ruler who has been here long enough knows my basic idea sending infils against Royals. It is pointless to twist that principle, yes yes, i know that you don't have any and we couple of old timers have those. We won't sell our words and promises.


Don't even answer on this as will not read your messages. If Narnia has something to say you can send an Ambassador .

Ottar Perkeleet
Tyrant of Tara
Celestial Fury:
Quote
Letter from Celestial Fury   (26 days ago)
Message sent to all full members of "League of the Eagle" (31 recipients)

To the realm claiming to be successor to Coria,
And to the former King now King under the mountain once more,

I would have preferred to do this in the elders chambers but apparently many of the elders are most resistant in giving you access once more, even temporarily to facilitate communications. Thus, so be it.

King, Con you explain these words of yours?
Silnaria, continues to see itself as allies of this league, and will support our allies in their war efforts.

THEIR war efforts, is it? Not OUR war efforts? My physician tells me this is most likely due to:
interference of some unconscious ("dynamically repressed") subdued wish, conflict, or train of thought.

It's kind of revealing, yes? But of course as you claim to be the direct and legal successor to Coria, inheriting all its previous functions and roles, no doubt you have already RE-DECLARED war on Darka. Wait, no?? I can't wait to hear the Better Speculative reason (in short, BS) you have for this.

King, Con you explain why you are being paranoid of coming under attack?
If you cannot, do allow me. It has to do with your naming faux pas [foh pah]. You've never being able to get it right. To refresh, in your previous short reign as a Monarch you went through multiple titles and what we addressed you as one day was no longer valid the next day. First it was King Con (King/Consul). Then it was Pimp (Princeps Imperator). And now that you name your realm KOS, you can't sleep at night.

May I can introduce you to my physician?
Celestial Fury
Prime Minister of Cagilan Empire

^Although Celestial Fury is no longer playing, this letter is used as another example of the type of toxic environment that has been steadily created and supported.

Quote
Out-of-Character from Mizuhiro Ishida   (25 days, 20 hours ago)
Message sent to all full members of "League of the Eagle" (31 recipients)
I'm sorry Alvin, but I kinda agree with Sean here (as well as what Enri said, I guess). It does seem like Celestial's wording towards Merlin's actions borders on a slightly "un-noble" way of communication, especially the uh... weird acronym play on Merlin's titles that's been going on.

En Kai



Ivore Whiteblood:
Quote
Out-of-Character from Ivore Whiteblood   (29 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)
I'm a bit surprised it's not something like "Get Off My Lawn" or "I'm Taking My Toys And Going Home"

James Stephens

Zadar Nargath:

This one is somewhat unique as Zadar decided to take this in-game OOC message and ridicule to the forums as well.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,78.msg109418.html#msg109418

Quote
So there is rumours that Coria will form new realm called Freakpot and yes it is the same freak in charge who wanted to create an new Empire. He even sent Infils against own people,against Royal. I really can't understand why others could let this kind of clown rule over them.   So Darka did get an puppet after all.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3275.msg112413.html#msg112413

Quote
Hey Madlin,where is the war?

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3275.msg112130.html#msg112130
Quote
Yes, you are right Silnaria and Tara has not ever been allies. So Silnaria isn't following Corias footsteps in anyway. One thing is sure and you cant twist that. Menedor is under Tara's banner and Silnaria tries to TO it.   Don't twist game mechanis bty saying that Tara took those regions. Couple ofLords did choose to change their allegiance to Tara instead of living under Silnaria and that madman. Of course Tara will try to protect those Nobles.  I heard a rumour that mindplague is coming from Freakpot.

Virgo Blue Star:
Quote
Out-of-Character from Virgo Blue Star   (29 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)

I wish it were "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" to be honest. Haha imagine if the new nation was called "Falasan" the rps that would of flooded in.

Chris Jones

Archymond Paxwax:
Quote
Out-of-Character from Archymond Paxwax   (29 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)
Couldn't agree more with Yangfan on this one!!

Merlin does a great job at manipulating his peers.....and the ones he doesn't succeed in manipulating he successfully replaces them from their positions and placing others loyal to him in their place! He would truly be a feared king!
Hopefully for all of us here and the free world as well, TH isn't or won't be holding any position of power within a real country anytime soon! :P

And Enri did do a terrific job at raising such a student...too bad it turned out to be an EVIL one! :P

Tiberiu Stanescu

Luthor Forbes:
Quote
Letter from Luthor Forbes   (15 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (57 recipients)
Countess,

Since when did being in the same region as someone else make you guilty of a crime?

Perhaps it was a commoner that did not like the fact that his Lord decided to abandon Carelia. Or perhaps the songs and poetry were enough to move someone to violence. But there is no proof that these acts were done by the hand of Sir Escent.

At best what you have is circumstantial and not in any means enough for Causus Belli to try and murder someone in the night.

Luthor Forbes
Supreme Chancellor of Strombran

Quote
Letter from Luthor Forbes   (15 days, 20 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (57 recipients)
Must one be a noble to wield a dagger?

Luthor Forbes
Supreme Chancellor of Strombran

In Luthor's case he chooses to completely ignore game mechanics when stating that commoners can somehow become assassins just to make me look worse. Background: Escent was the only noble in the region besides the target but apparently this isn't enough evidence to prove he was the one who attacked just because he "didn't get caught".

The main takeaway from these things is that while not everyone's offense is on the same level, the protracted and repeated jabs based upon OOC messages, themes, and all targeting me makes for a very toxic atmosphere. And the harassment, at least from my point of view, is heavily against the Fair Play clause of the Social Contract.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 10, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
Previous case in which Jason was given a warning:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3908.msg98320.html#msg98320
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on July 10, 2013, 08:07:13 PM
Allow me to begin by saying that while I wasn't an obvious target of anything, I'd considered filing a Magistrates case on the topic myself. The only reason (apart from being busy with real life) I didn't do so was because I wasn't sure how to since much of this is walking the lines of what is acceptable (in my eyes). This case is going to be as clear as mud, but I hope something comes of it to push people back from that line. (It's like sticking in a "Keep Off the Grass" sign; people are leaning as far over it as they can without actually touching it.)

For the record, I have also been trying to calm things down via OOC letters. I am the "Sean" in the OOC notes. Enri's letter is referring to my concern over the large volume of OOC jokes about the realm name. (I'm aware that many players do not like OOC chatter at all, let alone 5-10 letters in about two hours.) The OOC response to Celestial's letter is referring to an OOC comment I made about the tone.

As I mentioned before I edited this, I have received most of these messages as well and I believe they do a fairly good job of detailing the problem at hand. It's most convenient for me to move through person by person as well:

Jason Elegant:
Considering how messy the last case was, I cannot believe he would run right back to pushing the envelope again. The story he presents is a fairly accurate description of the IC events surrounding the Phoenix Empire, but his choice of making his point strikes me as wrong on many levels:
Before the Phoenix Empire idea came out, I trusted Jason as a diplomatic savant. Although he didn't write often, he did write well. There has been a drastic change in his style since that situation, typically like the childish writing you see here. His complete disregard for the concern over his letter in the follow-up OOC gives me no faith in his ability to respect others.

Enri Kinsey:
Personally, I think Enri is much less at fault here. To me, the jokes on the realm's name are just standard fare and could be lighthearted. (After all, when the Caglian Empire was renamed the Mighty Caglian Empire, they were jokingly referred to as "MiCE".) Where he steps over the line is the assertion of ego in the naming and playing other characters like fiddles. Making such a statement OOC is essentially the same as claiming the rest of us are incapable of choosing to do something else. We all had our reasons for letting the motion pass; the only time when I see such large-scale support is when more players are actively thinking of how it can benefit their character. As Consul, I couldn't pass what I thought were obvious referendums to support without someone making a fuss... and still less than half of the potential votes got cast. Here, the same people would have likely made a fuss, but enough others stepped up to reach majority in less than a few days. Finally, the comment about game mechanics also struck me as off by the simple fact that it was un-solicited: Nobody had said anything about ignoring game mechanics or coming into conflict with them. Why suddenly make that statement when there were perfectly good IC options to try to paint Silnaria as being in rebellion?

Ottar Perkeleet:
In-game, his actions haven't been unreasonable (although they have been frustrating) on an IC level. It's known that Ottar (the character) has had a grudge against Merlin for some time, and I could understand a Dictator turning away messages from his least favorite neighbor. Out-of-game, Ottar is represented as Zadar on the forums. He's had some posts that looked suspicious, but I've generally dismissed them due to English not being his native tongue (the posts were usually misspelled or confusing). Recently, however, I've grown more worried; there have been several clearly OOC posts (already copied here) that come very close to personal attacks. There has also been a common theme of inaccurate representations of in-game events in the out-of-game forums presented as undeniable truths. It's one thing to joke about how the situation can be twisted (usually the twisting is obvious or stated), but posting it as fact is an attempt to delude those unfamiliar with the situation. After a "board game with friends", you talk about how bad your luck was, etc. because of how things turned out; you don't tell them that the cards were stuck together or the pieces fell off the board when everybody knows that never happened.

Celestial Fury:
Skipping, since the situation is essentially resolved.

Ivore Whiteblood:
Skipping; other than that one comment, his animosity has stayed IC.

Virgo Blue Star:
Also skipping; his character in Silnaria has had a very different tone from his character in the CE.

Archymond Paxwax:
Again, not much here, but it's another OOC assertion that Merlin's player is evil, specifically stating that TH (the player, not the character) would be a scary real-life ruler. It's not likely TH will become a leader of a real country (then again, how can we know that), but the insinuation is that he'd be a cutthroat in the job. Call Merlin evil IC all you want, but don't slap the label on the player as well.

Luthor Forbes:
He's in the clear as far as I'm concerned. I intentionally avoided the idea that those kinds of arguments are against the rules in my thread. (Otherwise, I would have put it in Questions and Answers.) I've been on both sides of the issue at various times and I feel like they're both valid views that fall apart with different examples. The infiltrator question is one of those that really is just a matter of opinion: If you are strict about RP and IC, the evidence is not definitive proof as presented by the game mechanics. If you believe that the game mechanics create a "pattern" of inherent character experience, that evidence is clear proof.

That thread was not started solely due to my interactions with Luthor. As I said, I've been on both sides of the fence and the question was lingering on my mind. I tried very hard to avoid making a direct connection to the incident, but was eventually devoid of other examples.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Blue Star on July 10, 2013, 11:01:04 PM
I saw one of my character names and came to take a look, OCC wise that's exactly what I said yup, I believe also I asked if in anyway did that mean silver fire, ya know some words mean different things and truly it could, was curious.

Regarding harassment on my part, I was making a joke referring to the name one because of the butter rebellion and because Barad Falas history of having a white rabbit, but now having a Silver/White Owl (see banner). If I as a player can not make a joke then that is disturbingly wrong. In no way was this a assault on TH.

Though I must speak on Luthor part, also. I find it personally reasonable for him to say such. A scout report shows that a person was in the region... it does not show that a assassin assaulted another noble. Yes, we as players can believe that it is true and that is what really took place, but if you are not in the region and their is simply no report of the guards seeing someone, cause Escent is that good, then how do you know it happened? Truly a issue regarding Infiltrators visible or invisible. Without looking at it from the player's prospective how can you fathom that that is actually what happened?

Regarding the issue I believe Eirikr himself set up a thread regarding this issue and it is a in high contention, so I do not believe that needs to be brought up, then again it isn't my call. Just my 2 cent
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Geronus on July 10, 2013, 11:20:35 PM
Regarding harassment on my part, I was making a joke referring to the name one because of the butter rebellion and because Barad Falas history of having a white rabbit, but now having a Silver/White Owl (see banner). If I as a player can not make a joke then that is disturbingly wrong. In no way was this a assault on TH.

Though I must speak on Luthor part, also. I find it personally reasonable for him to say such. A scout report shows that a person was in the region... it does not show that a assassin assaulted another noble. Yes, we as players can believe that it is true and that is what really took place, but if you are not in the region and their is simply no report of the guards seeing someone, cause Escent is that good, then how do you know it happened? Truly a issue regarding Infiltrators visible or invisible. Without looking at it from the player's prospective how can you fathom that that is actually what happened?

Regarding the issue I believe Eirikr himself set up a thread regarding this issue and it is a in high contention, so I do not believe that needs to be brought up, then again it isn't my call. Just my 2 cent

Thanks for your input. I tend to agree on both of your points.

Let's all avoid the infiltrator question, shall we? It is questionable whether that can really be considered to be harassment since it's basically just your standard IC reaction to one of your infiltrators being accused of something. If you want to protect him, deny everything and blame it all on someone else. Nothing strange or malicious about that in any OOC sense whatsoever. As Bluestar says, please refer to Eirikr's thread on this topic if you are interested in discussing it. It can be found here:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4387.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4387.0.html)
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 10, 2013, 11:27:15 PM
I saw one of my character names and came to take a look, OCC wise that's exactly what I said yup, I believe also I asked if in anyway did that mean silver fire, ya know some words mean different things and truly it could, was curious.

Regarding harassment on my part, I was making a joke referring to the name one because of the butter rebellion and because Barad Falas history of having a white rabbit, but now having a Silver/White Owl (see banner). If I as a player can not make a joke then that is disturbingly wrong. In no way was this a assault on TH.

I don't believe you intended harassment or assault on me in any way. (Mainly due to other letters I had received from you around that time OOC through your other char) The reason for your inclusion on this list was because your letters while not intended to do such, helped create an environment where through OOC messages the realm of Silnaria was made to be turned into a "Joke."

I personally don't believe OOC chatter like this is healthy purposefully because it leads to later reactions and discussion as demonstrated elsewhere in the quoted letters. The Butter Rebellion was one in which essentially the entire continent quickly turned on and destroyed a realm. That is certainly not something that I want my realm associated with through OOC discussion for all to see, regardless of what first-hand knowledge their characters have.

In conclusion, the main reason for your letter's inclusion was for further evidence, but I do think such chatter needs to be cut down on. However, more than a warning for your one related message would be absurd. Also, an additional caveat is that this wouldn't have been an issue in private correspondence, as much as correspondence that is sent to a wide audience of players.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Vellos on July 11, 2013, 02:11:32 AM
Let's all avoid the infiltrator question, shall we? It is questionable whether that can really be considered to be harassment since it's basically just your standard IC reaction to one of your infiltrators being accused of something. If you want to protect him, deny everything and blame it all on someone else. Nothing strange or malicious about that in any OOC sense whatsoever. As Bluestar says, please refer to Eirikr's thread on this topic if you are interested in discussing it. It can be found here:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4387.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4387.0.html)

I second this, let's stay far away from the question about infils and such. Tim and I just had our monthly RP v. Mechanics feud, we're not on schedule for another (especially on the same topic) for a few weeks at least.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Sacha on July 11, 2013, 02:29:25 AM
This case is flimsy at best. For starters, I don't see them insulting any players, just characters and realms. Most of it seems to be in jest. I hardly think this is a toxic atmosphere. Sure, Merlin/Silnaria are getting a ton of flak IC, but that's the game. To say it with a meme, "If you throw a monkey wrench in the Cagilan program, you're gonna have a bad time". Maybe Zadar's comments on the forum are a bit too much, but then again, if we're to punish everyone who gets a bit heated in here, we'd do nothing else.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on July 11, 2013, 03:49:24 AM
I have finally added my two cents; see the above post.

From where I stand, the situation on Atamara has been very tense and comes in waves of extremes, but each time the wave is worse. The problem is that everything seems to be circulating back into itself... those cited in this case are not the only ones to blame, though they are the ones relevant to TH's specific case. If you look in the Atamara forum, you can see posts from Darka, the CE, etc. going back and forth with unnecessary insults and attacks. Myself and others have tried to calm the situation down, but it's not been effective. Some have given up and resorted to "counter-trolling".

Sacha, I agree that the case appears weak, but I ask that the duration of this problem be given some thought. This is far from a new problem. Several players have expressed discomfort at the "jests" over the past months (if not years), yet nothing has changed. Those implicated (on both sides) have been playing for years; they know where the line is and have decided to walk right along it. This case will decide whether or not we want to encourage testing the boundaries or make everyone take a step back again. The Magistrates on this case are essentially deciding the difference between "laughing with you" and "laughing at you"... will barely hiding the behavior be consistently good enough to escape punishment?
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 11, 2013, 04:08:07 AM
This case is flimsy at best. For starters, I don't see them insulting any players, just characters and realms. Most of it seems to be in jest. I hardly think this is a toxic atmosphere. Sure, Merlin/Silnaria are getting a ton of flak IC, but that's the game. To say it with a meme, "If you throw a monkey wrench in the Cagilan program, you're gonna have a bad time". Maybe Zadar's comments on the forum are a bit too much, but then again, if we're to punish everyone who gets a bit heated in here, we'd do nothing else.

The argument that they aren't insulting a player rather than a character is flimsy at best. They plainly make fun of the realm's name in an OOC nature, which makes things much more personal. Besides, a realm's name is made by the player who creates it, and so making fun of it is personally attacking him, not the character. By the way Sacha, every one of those messages provided in the evidence post is OOC besides one or two, so that's not "the game". That's OOC.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Munro on July 11, 2013, 04:13:59 AM
I don't often post on the forums these days but since the case against myself I've obviously been checking them more of late.

 Firstly I'd just like to say that I've played with TH for many RL years now and in that time I've only ever known him to be a genuinely nice and understanding person on an OOC level and I'd certainly be disappointed to see him insulted on an OOC level. 

Some of the letters are pushing the boundaries but Atamara is not SMA. Also taking a step back I have to remind myself that the majority here are actually adults because seriously has this what BM has become?

That being said I'd have liked to see TH send an OOC letter stating that he felt the situation was becoming personal and would appreciate people backing off a little before filing a magistrates case as this situation could easily be avoided. A lot of flak Merlin is getting is because he did something cool but pushed the boundaries.  It's important to distinguish angry characters and angry players. This is the difficulty here.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Geronus on July 11, 2013, 05:22:05 AM
For starters, I will recuse myself from voting on this since I have characters in both Silnaria and CE.

I tend to agree with Sacha that all of this, even taken together, is a borderline non-issue. It's really not that bad, especially when you look at some of the other Social Contract cases we've had recently. This isn't all that toxic by comparison. I would be willing to go so far as to admit that there might be a touch of unpleasantness in some of the indicated players' attitudes, but it's hardly crossing the line, it's just got a bit of a sharp edge to it.

Honestly I think everyone involved just needs to take a chill pill and stop making things so personal. Some of the Darkan and Cagilan players have really gotten nasty with each other a couple times here on the forum recently. I get that there's plenty of IC bad blood there, but why make it bad blood between the players? That's uncalled for. It's just a game. Maybe the biggest reason to step back and take a deep breath? How about this thread:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4428.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4428.0.html)
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Vellos on July 11, 2013, 05:58:54 AM
I'm inclined to agree that there's no case here.

Or, if these is, we need to go back and slap some people for the Farronite Repubic jokes.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 11, 2013, 07:18:53 AM
These allegations are so frivolous that they are not worth responding to. However, out of respect for both TH and Sean, I will say something in my defense:

OOC insults toward a realm name:
Imho, realm names are IC constructs and are fair game for OOC criticism and OOC satire. I thought the jokes about both "MiCE" and "Silnarnia" were fair hits and quite funny. And after all these years, I still can't believe it's not butter.

OOC insults toward a noble:
Imho, nobles are IC constructs and are fair game for OOC criticism and OOC satire. I assert my right to OOCly call Merlin a Machiavellian bastard if I want to. Every story needs a good villain. One of the charms of BM is that everyone can call the other side's nobles the villains in the story. And heck, maybe they're all correct. Cagilans are imperialistic puppet-masters. Darkans are mercenary scum. Redspaniards have inappropriate relationships with their goats. Ottar is a bully. Merlin is a weasel. KKC likes to sacrifice little boys to the volcano (or so I've heard). I know of no saints on Atamara. Making up horrible stories about other nobles is FUN, dammit, and you shouldn't take it personally. They are not you.

The "fiddles" comment:
That was honestly meant to be a compliment to both TH the player and Merlin the noble. I consider being able to "play your nobles like fiddles" to be a good quality for a Ruler to have. It's a reasonable assumption that Merlin somehow bribed or persuaded a majority of the Senate to play along with his schemes. However, even if I were to stand on top of a soapbox and shout, "Silnaria is full of sheeple! SHEEPLE!" You still can't call that an OOC insult toward fellow players. I'd only be insulting nobles.

TH certainly did not seem insulted by the "fiddles" comment at the time:
Quote
Out-of-Character from Merlin Silverfire   (29 days, 23 hours ago)
Thank you mate!

It's all good. Merlin will just blame all of his "failings" on your teachings as well.
TH

"Game mechanics trump RP":
Ugh. I wouldn't have brought it up at all, had I realized that it was controversial even among the Devs. Anyway, if "an attempt to use OOC messages to convince people that the IC discussion is rightfully in their favor" is a crime, then I respectfully request that TH get in the defendant's box with me.

Quote
Out-of-Character from Merlin Silverfire   (16 days, 13 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (56 recipients)
Well if Game Mechanics trump RP, then Coria is game mechanically dead. It can't game mechanically gain a capital anymore, and so it is dead.

So game mechanically stop RP'ing characters into making stuff up.
TH

Look, I realize that this is a game, and that people are here to have fun, not to have their egos stomped on. I make reasonable efforts to not offend people, just like I make reasonable efforts to shrug it off when other people offend me. However, I draw the line at following the rules and being reasonable. I refuse to walk on eggshells when I'm just trying to relax and play a game. If me making fun of your realm name, or insulting your noble, offends you, then please, feel free to put me on your ignore list. I would not be offended; I promise.

And if you can show me evidence that I've been unfair to you as a player, Solari/Aaron can tell you that I'm not too proud to apologize. I do not see any evidence that this was the case here. All I see are a bunch of month-old IC messages, and some OOC back-handed compliments at Merlin, and not a single insult or aggressive message toward TH the player.

While it is normal to become emotionally attached to your nobles, I respectfully suggest that TH is going a little overboard here.

In all honesty, these allegations are so frivolous, that I believe TH owes some of us a public apology. I may sound calm, but I am actually quite angry at TH right now. What the heck man. I thought you were my friend.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 11, 2013, 07:27:32 AM
That being said I'd have liked to see TH send an OOC letter stating that he felt the situation was becoming personal and would appreciate people backing off a little before filing a magistrates case as this situation could easily be avoided.

The reason I didn't do this is because in the course of the past month, this very same request was made by three different people in the League for overstepping bounds prior to me even logging on to read the letters. As they were heavily tinted against me, and another had already brought up issue with it, I felt it was best to stay silent. Every time I even bring up something along those lines, I am shot down for making stuff up just to cause problems.

The argument that they aren't insulting a player rather than a character is flimsy at best. They plainly make fun of the realm's name in an OOC nature, which makes things much more personal. Besides, a realm's name is made by the player who creates it, and so making fun of it is personally attacking him, not the character. By the way Sacha, every one of those messages provided in the evidence post is OOC besides one or two, so that's not "the game". That's OOC.

Sacha, I agree that the case appears weak, but I ask that the duration of this problem be given some thought. This is far from a new problem. Several players have expressed discomfort at the "jests" over the past months (if not years), yet nothing has changed. Those implicated (on both sides) have been playing for years; they know where the line is and have decided to walk right along it. This case will decide whether or not we want to encourage testing the boundaries or make everyone take a step back again. The Magistrates on this case are essentially deciding the difference between "laughing with you" and "laughing at you"... will barely hiding the behavior be consistently good enough to escape punishment?

All I can say is that when playing on Atamara, primarily in the League over the past *years* it just feels toxic. I really have no other way to describe it. If you don't fall in line and do everything that you are told to do, you are brutally attacked by every method possible by many leading parties until you get in line. These letters are just the evidence I have from this past month. The players involved, know how to walk the line of what is acceptable, just so that they don't get punished. These are players who have played the game for years. They know the rules, they know how to say just the right thing so that while it has the intended effect, they can't get punished for it. Letters like the ones sent by Jason Elegant, listed above, while they hold the "IC" tag are far from IC in tone. They are written like a baby throwing a temper tantrum. A noble would never write that, and it isn't even addressed to a character, so it is quite reasonable to assume it is targeting the player.

The entire point of the social contract is to ensure that the game remains fun for everyone to play. The standard of determination here is "Clear and Obvious." Is it clear and obvious that the players involved were targeting my character? I think that is very hard to defend when you consider most of these letters are OOC in nature. This doesn't have to be clear and obviously a player attack to be guilty, it just has to be clear and obviously NOT a player attack to be not-guilty.

You want to look at a reason why player retention is low? It's because the social contract is eroding and not being defended. We have slowly started to allow more and more things to be seen as "okay" because it isn't a blatantly obvious: "That player is a dick." You are never going to get something like that. People know the rules, so they walk the borderline intentionally because it helps them better "win" battlemaster.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 11, 2013, 07:32:07 AM
I may sound calm, but I am actually quite angry at TH right now. What the heck man. I thought you were my friend.

Being a friend isn't going to stop me from reporting someone. If I think someone did something wrong, I'm going to call them on it whether they are my friend or enemy. That's what is good for the game.

I'm not saying you did something wrong here, I'm saying I think you probably did something wrong here. It's for the Magistrates to decide.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Sacha on July 11, 2013, 07:36:04 AM
There's always been OOC arguing. You should've seen some of the insults flying back and forth on Atamara 7-8 years ago during the war between Eston and Norland. Compared to that, this is nothing. And I don't care how toxic you think the League may be, anything said IC should not be taken OOC. If you feel personally insulted when your realm or character is being slandered IC, then you need to take a step back and remind yourself that you're playing a bunch of medieval nobles with long-standing rivalries and very opposite interests.

Quote
This doesn't have to be clear and obviously a player attack to be guilty, it just has to be clear and obviously NOT a player attack to be not-guilty.

I'd like the other Magistrates to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is NOT how cases are decided. This is NOT 'guilty until proven innocent' justice. That would set a very bad precedent and kick the door wide open for endless frivolous accusations.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 11, 2013, 07:42:49 AM
And I don't care how toxic you think the League may be, anything said IC should not be taken OOC.

If I can put an IC letterhead on a letter that explicitly is targeted at a player, and have no punishment done to me, then there is a serious problem with this game.

I'd like the other Magistrates to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is NOT how cases are decided. This is NOT 'guilty until proven innocent' justice. That would set a very bad precedent and kick the door wide open for endless frivolous accusations.

This is NOT guilty until proven innocent. What it IS, is actually using the standard that the social contract TELLS YOU to use. If you aren't judging social contract cases in the fair play cause by that standard, then I humbly submit that the Magistrates have been doing it WRONG for a long time.

Everythign in the social contract says that players must err on the side of caution. Not, "walk the borderline." but err on the side of caution. Make it "Clear and Obvious" that no harm is intended.

Stating OOCly that my character is evil, is not erring on the side of caution. Stating oocly, that *I* the person should never be given power in real life is not erring on the side of caution.

Should all members listed be given a punishment? No. But, completely throwing out this case is absurd and would mean the death of the social contract as we know it.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 11, 2013, 07:49:41 AM
I thought this line of Anaris's from the other case was particularly relevant:

Quote
"The truth is, a dozen multicheaters do far less damage to the game than one person who believes that spreading poisonous rumours and lies about people IC and OOC is an acceptable way to win a war."

Is this even remotely as bad as the rumours spread in the other case? No. But it is no less damaging. From my POV, the players contributing most to this are trying to win a war by spreading rumours and lies about my character and myself through both IC and OOC methods in order to win a war.

If that is acceptable, then fine, but then I know exactly why everyone is leaving the game. How is that a fun environment to play in?
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on July 11, 2013, 08:00:53 AM
These allegations are so frivolous that they are not worth responding to. However, out of respect for both TH and Sean, I will say something in my defense:

Thanks. I realized I sounded harsher than intended in my description, but I'm trying to give a full account of how it looked to me and what set off my alarms. I was a little confused why you were listed second; I discounted the realm name stuff back when it was said IG. The other bits felt like you were shoveling it on TH and how he played Merlin; from a third-party view (which would consist of most of the League of the Eagle), it reads as though TH is solely responsible for the situation. I guess this is a lesson to us both that text does not convey tone well.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 11, 2013, 08:10:42 AM
All I can say is that when playing on Atamara, primarily in the League over the past *years* it just feels toxic. I really have no other way to describe it. If you don't fall in line and do everything that you are told to do, you are brutally attacked by every method possible by many leading parties until you get in line.

It's a cabal of nobles... What did you expect? And what does this have to do with anything?

Quote
These letters are just the evidence I have from this past month. The players involved, know how to walk the line of what is acceptable, just so that they don't get punished. These are players who have played the game for years. They know the rules, they know how to say just the right thing so that while it has the intended effect, they can't get punished for it.

So we're not breaking any rules... And you want the Magistrates to punish us anyway? Why?

Quote
The entire point of the social contract is to ensure that the game remains fun for everyone to play. The standard of determination here is "Clear and Obvious." Is it clear and obvious that the players involved were targeting my character? I think that is very hard to defend when you consider most of these letters are OOC in nature. This doesn't have to be clear and obviously a player attack to be guilty, it just has to be clear and obviously NOT a player attack to be not-guilty.

I respectfully disagree on this point. None of the messages you posted mention your name or refer to you directly. It is clear and obvious to me that we were referring to Merlin... whom we referred to by name, and who is not you. And again, I assert my right to call Merlin a Machiavellian bastard if I want to, even if he doesn't deserve it. Especially if he doesn't deserve it. I can't believe you are seriously complaining about in-character whisper campaigns, when nobles can literally kill their peers.

Quote
You want to look at a reason why player retention is low? It's because the social contract is eroding and not being defended. We have slowly started to allow more and more things to be seen as "okay" because it isn't a blatantly obvious: "That player is a dick." You are never going to get something like that. People know the rules, so they walk the borderline intentionally because it helps them better "win" battlemaster.

Well, dragging your in-game opponents in front of the Magistrates over frivolous accusations doesn't help either, I assure you. One of the accused has already told me that he's thinking about quitting the game over this.

And I believe if we were really trying to, err, OOCly "win" Battlemaster, we would still be targeting Darka and KKC, not Merlin.

I'm not saying you did something wrong here, I'm saying I think you probably did something wrong here. It's for the Magistrates to decide.

TH, there are some behavior that I would accept from Merlin, that I would not accept from you. Enough with this "I think you maybe probably did something wrong perhaps". Either you're saying I did something wrong, or you're not. So either show me what I did wrong (in which case I'd be happy to apologize to you, and try to improve myself), or apologize to me for dragging me in front of the Magistrates for no reason.

Stating oocly, that *I* the person should never be given power in real life is not erring on the side of caution.

That was over the line, and you said yourself in the original post that Archymond's player has already apologized.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 11, 2013, 08:43:10 AM
Should all members listed be given a punishment? No. But, completely throwing out this case is absurd and would mean the death of the social contract as we know it.

I do not believe the point of the Magistrate system is to allow a player to throw a bunch of accusations at a bunch of fellow players and "see what sticks". Either you believe we did something wrong, or you don't.

Stating OOCly that my character is evil, is not erring on the side of caution.

No it's not. And that's because I don't care one bit about Merlin's feelings regarding my OOC messages, because he's not real.

ICly, nobles are going to gossip and say bad stuff about their peers, probably behind their back but sometimes to their face. To suggest that this is a Social Contract issue is absurd.

OOCly, players are going to gossip and say bad stuff about other players' nobles, probably behind their back but sometimes to that player's face. You are free to feel insulted about this, but I dispute the notion that this is somehow an unfair tactic used to "win" BattleMaster. Please demonstrate how players OOCly saying bad things about your nobles impacts anything in-game.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Anaris on July 11, 2013, 01:43:18 PM
So we're not breaking any rules... And you want the Magistrates to punish us anyway? Why?

It is fully possible for no single message to break a rule, and yet have a collection of a hundred such messages that is worth banning someone from the game.

OOCly, players are going to gossip and say bad stuff about other players' nobles, probably behind their back but sometimes to that player's face. You are free to feel insulted about this, but I dispute the notion that this is somehow an unfair tactic used to "win" BattleMaster. Please demonstrate how players OOCly saying bad things about your nobles impacts anything in-game.

Really? Players are "going" to do this, and we just have to take it?

It doesn't have to be about trying to win. The motivations of the players making the derogatory comments and the little jokes and laughing behind their hands doesn't actually matter one bit in a case like this.

What matters is the effect. If it creates an atmosphere that is deeply uncomfortable and negative for one particular player or group, that is against the Social Contract. It doesn't matter whether you do it because you want to "win", or just because you think it's fun, and anything that's not solidly against the rules is fair game.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 11, 2013, 05:25:22 PM
I respectfully disagree on this point. None of the messages you posted mention your name or refer to you directly. It is clear and obvious to me that we were referring to Merlin...whom we referred to by name, and who is not you. And again, I assert my right to call Merlin a Machiavellian bastard if I want to, even if he doesn't deserve it. Especially if he doesn't deserve it. I can't believe you are seriously complaining about in-character whisper campaigns, when nobles can literally kill their peers.

Most of these messages don't refer to Merlin by name. That is exactly WHY it isn't clear and obvious. Case and point: Jason Elegant's messages. He refers to me as "He who cannot be named." Not only is there zero chance that any character has knowledge of real life Harry Potter in this game, but by using such language it is very easy to see it as not discussing Merlin, and instead Merlin's player. Why? Because, there is zero differentiation given in the entire set.

In addition, he goes and gives a freaking Disclaimer. If you need a disclaimer in your letters to try and make them less offensive or reportable that is a problem.

apologize to me for dragging me in front of the Magistrates for no reason.

I don't think anyone should ever have to apologize for bringing a Magistrate case when it is intended to protect the Social Contract or the players in this game. I certainly won't be apologizing for that.

If I was even possibly breaking the rules I'd expect someone to make a case against me, so that I could see the problem and correct myself if I was doing something wrong. If the problem is that the case is public, that isn't by my doing, so don't blame that on me.

No it's not. And that's because I don't care one bit about Merlin's feelings regarding my OOC messages, because he's not real.

ICly, nobles are going to gossip and say bad stuff about their peers, probably behind their back but sometimes to their face. To suggest that this is a Social Contract issue is absurd.

OOCly, players are going to gossip and say bad stuff about other players' nobles, probably behind their back but sometimes to that player's face. You are free to feel insulted about this, but I dispute the notion that this is somehow an unfair tactic used to "win" BattleMaster. Please demonstrate how players OOCly saying bad things about your nobles impacts anything in-game.

It is a well known fact that players find it very difficult to separate IC and OOC information that they hear about in-game. That is why it is good not to talk about OOC secrets with players who shouldn't know about them IC. Doing so just makes it more likely that they'll accidentally use this information or it will subconsciously change their decision making.

Perhaps the players in CE were going to have their characters support Merlin as Merlin was making a lot of good logical points. But then, they read OOC'ly that Merlin is a manipulative bastard, evil, and can't be trusted. They have nothing to back this up from IC correspondence, but a few players that they respect a lot (namely all the leaders in the league) are saying this as FACT within the league as an OOC statement. Well, they then decide hey, maybe my character shouldn't trust Merlin. So, Merlin gets further alienated because of constant damning OOC remarks or jabs at him, his realm, or his actions.

That is how OOC information can have a bad effect in-game.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Indirik on July 11, 2013, 06:43:33 PM
I have to admit, that the profusion of those messages gives a very poor impression of that set of players. "Hammargays"? Really? Even in an IC message, that's a clearly derogatory and OOC inflammatory remark that simply shouldn't be said.

Many of these other messages, though sent IC, also have a derogatory tone that could easily be interpreted as referring to a player, and not a character. "'the one who cannot be named' behaves like a 5 year old"...

OOC cracks about the chosen realm name: "Or just go full egomaniac and name the realm Silverfiria?" ... again, could quite easily be taken as a poke at the player. Add to that the continued use of RL references as derogatory references to the realm: "Narnia" and "Silnarnia"...

(Aside to Vellos: This is completely different than the "Farronite Repubic" jokes, as the ruler of FR realm actually named the realm that by mistake. If TH had actually named his realm Silnarnia by accident, then I would expect some joking to follow.)

The comment of "handling of Merlin, who continues to prove that he can play his fellow Corians (sorry, Silnarians) like cheap fiddles." as an OOC comment .. if I were a player with a character in Silnaria at the time, I sure wouldn't take that as a compliment.



The whole thing taken together portrays a very childish attitude among the group. I'm not sure if the set of messages provided rises quite to the level of a Magistrates case, but that's just my impression. I could see how someone else might take it like that. And perhaps that's the whole point. If TH is sincere in his complaint, and he's actually that offended by the behavior exhibited, then perhaps we as a community need to take that into consideration, and see what we can do to improve it. As Anaris says, just because one message doesn't cross the line, doesn't mean that a complete set of them, in aggregate, can't cross over that line.

However... This *is* a PvP game. Tempers will get hot from time to time, and there will be some confrontational incidents between players. You *have* to have a thick skin to play these kinds of games. Just like, from time to time, your friends piss you off, you can expect the same thing to happen here.

This one is really a tough call...
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Anaris on July 11, 2013, 06:54:21 PM
I think the problem with saying things like "tempers will get hot" is that this isn't a set of knee-jerk reactions to an upsetting incident. This is just the way they act. They clearly feel that this is "normal," and I think that perhaps more than anything else here, that is a real problem.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Lavigna on July 11, 2013, 06:58:07 PM
I think the problem with saying things like "tempers will get hot" is that this isn't a set of knee-jerk reactions to an upsetting incident. This is just the way they act. They clearly feel that this is "normal," and I think that perhaps more than anything else here, that is a real problem.

+1
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Bendix on July 11, 2013, 06:58:53 PM
I think the problem with saying things like "tempers will get hot" is that this isn't a set of knee-jerk reactions to an upsetting incident. This is just the way they act. They clearly feel that this is "normal," and I think that perhaps more than anything else here, that is a real problem.

+2
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: jaune on July 11, 2013, 07:59:28 PM
I felt bad for Silverfire back then when he first got in power and started Phoenix Empire. The pressure was horrible on him... inside the league and later of course also outside too. I admit i pushed IC him too back then, but there was pretty good IC reasons for that.

This really is tough one, somehow those messages arent that bad, i could imagine even my self to joke around like that... what makes it bad, that there is only one target and multiple continuous "jokers"... it smells like school bully thing.

I totally understand if rulers of CE & Tara are cautious and uppsett what is happening, but what i have heard, Merlin has tried to everything to keep things calm with them, but gets back just buckets of poop. I dont know if other League members from smaller satellite realms (Strombran, Rielston, Minas Leon( is it on League?) etc. feels about this... This pretty much shows to everybody that if you dont stay in line with CE, you get trashed, not only through military force, but first verbally.

-Jaune
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Stabbity on July 11, 2013, 08:52:16 PM
I've seen quite a bit of this, having a character in Silnaria, and frankly, I'm disgusted by the behavior. I understand ooc humor, I enjoy it, and I cross a line every now and again. But the ooc attitude exhibited here in this case is indistinguishable from the IC attitudes as well, and I frankly find the whole ordeal to be toxic, and spawning from a handful of players. The comment about this being like Scary Movie irked me too. This is battlemaster, not some frat boy film where a dude gets a penis in his ear.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: [email protected] on July 11, 2013, 10:21:55 PM
Hammargays? Really? Is that supposed to be fine? Especially that?
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Blue Star on July 11, 2013, 10:34:51 PM
I just want to ask do many of the people commenting believe we organized this so called 'School Bullying'? I mean this wasn't organized to insult and many of us were just making comments referring to the realm's name.

Pretty much in my perspective, however messed up that is cause hey ya gotta be a bit nutty to play BM, I am going to greatly refrain from OCC. If commenting as such will be seen as a assault on another character then im simply going to keep everything in character.

I personally found Silnarnia hilarious and I'm in the realm, personally I thought it was spelled actually like that until I actually looked at. Would of been comically really.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Geronus on July 11, 2013, 10:43:41 PM
Assuming we were to do something about this, what do people think should be done?
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Anaris on July 11, 2013, 10:57:25 PM
I just want to ask do many of the people commenting believe we organized this so called 'School Bullying'? I mean this wasn't organized to insult and many of us were just making comments referring to the realm's name.

No, of course it's not organized.

The whole point of this is that a toxic atmosphere is being created, where it's "OK" to say things that demean and stress out a particular player.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Anaris on July 11, 2013, 10:58:42 PM
Assuming we were to do something about this, what do people think should be done?

I would say warnings. Public warnings in the realms involved, to leave off the OOC crap. Somewhere in there should be a clear statement that though you may think something is just a harmless joke, the aggregation of so much ridicule heaped onto one person or group is very much not OK.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: jaune on July 11, 2013, 11:16:33 PM
People can laugh and throw jokes, as long as the target of the jokes is laughing too... when target isnt laughing, its not having fun, its bullying.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 11, 2013, 11:40:30 PM
The whole point of this is that a toxic atmosphere is being created, where it's "OK" to say things that demean and stress out a particular player.

I think one of the main issues with it once the atmosphere is established is that it is very hard to defend against.

My character can defend himself when things are situated purely IC, but he can't defend OOC statements about him being evil, manipulative, or what have you. Not even *I* can defend such.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 12, 2013, 12:02:17 AM
I'd like to note that I tried to find some more of TH's OOC messages when he first founded Silnaria, with which I had hoped to show that he was a willing and eager participant in the conversation. For example, I'm pretty sure that he originally brought up the "game mechanic versus RP" argument himself. However, those messages are more than a month old now and have fallen off the queue. I am having trouble building a satisfactory defense for myself here, because TH waited almost exactly a month to cite my words against me.

It is fully possible for no single message to break a rule, and yet have a collection of a hundred such messages that is worth banning someone from the game.

If it's a hundred messages from a single player, sure. When it's one or two messages made by ten players each? Really?

Just as an example, due to a screw-up on my part, Ete City suffered some starvation recently. Quite many nobles noticed and called my Margrave out on the mistake. It was quite embarrassing for me as a player to handle, as my noble end up saying mea culpas for many days. If all those messages came from a single player, I might be filing a Magistrate case regarding harassment myself. However, it was just a bunch of different nobles having a completely natural reaction to something my noble did (or neglected to do).

That's pretty much what happened here. Again, I'd like to note that most of these messages from me are about a month old. I poked fun at Merlin for a bit and then I stopped. Jason's player recently unpaused and was not aware of the previous conversations in the League, as his noble was no longer a member of the guild. There is no continuous, malicious harassment going on here. Call it a "toxic atmosphere" if you must, but if a few OOC insults directed at a noble is grounds for a warning, then you had better warn most players in the game.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on July 12, 2013, 05:00:30 AM
Assuming we were to do something about this, what do people think should be done?

I'd say warnings, though Jason needs more. If I have to file a separate case for "Hammargays", I will. Considering his time in the game, former ruler status, and past warning, I don't see why he should get just a slap on the wrist again.

For example, I'm pretty sure that he originally brought up the "game mechanic versus RP" argument himself. However, those messages are more than a month old now and have fallen off the queue.
I know for certain that the first message of that sort (sent to the entire channel, at least) was from you. I thought it was very odd that it would suddenly appear, as I said in my reply:

Quote
Out-of-Character from Ravendon Eirikr   (16 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (55 recipients)
Can we cut the OOC nonsense about game mechanics? Nothing has been done in conflict with them; Merlin has repeatedly provided several options for IC ways to deal with diplomacy.

You want to claim Silnaria is in rebellion to Coria? Fine. Do it IC. We'll contest that IC, of course. We have been providing communication establishing what happened... It is your choice to accept it or not.

The game mechanics are pointless without the RP context, and vice-versa. How would you explain Talerium's peace with Darka without RP? What do treaties mean without RP? Count communications between realms as garbage, too. They're not backed up by game mechanics, either.

Bugs are another story altogether. It's something you should be able to do, but can't. They are the rare case of an unknown result; you make up for it and the world keeps turning. In all other cases, the RP is just building off the existing game mechanic... If that's off base, then why are any of us bothering to play this game or send messages?
Sean Shaffer

This letter was sent after a few others had responded, but I was expressing confusion as to how we suddenly jumped to that logic.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Tom on July 12, 2013, 11:04:35 AM
People can laugh and throw jokes, as long as the target of the jokes is laughing too... when target isnt laughing, its not having fun, its bullying.

this
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Stabbity on July 12, 2013, 12:19:33 PM
I'd like to note that I tried to find some more of TH's OOC messages when he first founded Silnaria, with which I had hoped to show that he was a willing and eager participant in the conversation. For example, I'm pretty sure that he originally brought up the "game mechanic versus RP" argument himself.


That isn't true and you know it. The game mechanics vs rp that was thrown out was not by Silnaria, but the dumbest argument I've ever seen for OOC justification of IC behavior. When you have a fully adjustable option, sticking to one setting is not game mechanics trumping RP. There is a reason there is a button that says break alliance, declare war, etc, etc. In fact, here is the first letter mentioning game mechanics.

Out-of-Character from Jean Luc Kinsey   (18 days, 1 hour ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (56 recipients)
Game mechanics trump RP. Anyway you look at it, CE and Tara are allied with Coria, and Silnaria is the one in rebellion here.

Yangfan Wang
star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal:  Trust medal Roleplaying medal Fun medal]

Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 12, 2013, 07:46:20 PM
The messages I was referring to happened in the flurry of messages right after Merlin founded Silnaria. They've gone off the queue now, so I can't prove anything.

I remember TH writing an OOC message on the subject and me replying with, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so (some more words here)." This was a few days before my other message that you were referring to.

That isn't true and you know it.

Could you please not imply that I am a liar? If you have proof that I'm lying, then please show it.

Do we archive the older messages somewhere?
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 12, 2013, 08:13:54 PM
The messages I was referring to happened in the flurry of messages right after Merlin founded Silnaria. They've gone off the queue now, so I can't prove anything.

I remember TH writing an OOC message on the subject and me replying with, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so (some more words here)." This was a few days before my other message that you were referring to.
 
Could you please not imply that I am a liar? If you have proof that I'm lying, then please show it.

Do we archive the older messages somewhere?

Silnaria was founded exactly 32 days ago. Which means every message sent after its founding was available when I sent this case. The message that is quoted of you is from 18 days ago. If it was a day or two before this it should be available.

However, perhaps I'm mistaken. If you can let me know approximately how many days ago you think it was sent based upon the above information I am happy to look for it. I have archived copies of every message I have sent in the past 2 months, and have also archived all of the messages I have received in the past 2 months. I'll look for it within a decently sized span around any time frame you give me.

I do say though that I know I wasn't the one to start the whole "game mechanics vs RP" debate. I responded to it, yes. But I didn't start it. Perhaps whatever evidence you want me to find will prove myself wrong, but that is my remembered understanding.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on July 12, 2013, 08:38:08 PM
I remember TH writing an OOC message on the subject and me replying with, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so (some more words here)." This was a few days before my other message that you were referring to.
He did say that, but after your initial message. I'll go find it when I have the time (I'm at work). I thought there may have been private messages between you two to that effect.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 13, 2013, 01:44:45 AM
I can't claim perfect memory either. I just feel that it would be more fair if TH included all messages from the players involved, including the ones he sent. But perhaps that is not practical. That would be a lot of messages to read through.

I believe the argument was that some nobles were ICly refusing to recognize Silnaria as a realm. Then TH chimed in OOCly that game mechanics trumps RP, and therefore Silnaria is too a real realm. And then I said, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so CE is still allied with Coria, not Silnaria." I can't guarantee that it was TH who sent the message, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't start the whole argument. I was responding to someone else.

Anyway, if you arrange the messages chronologically, I believe everyone will see that the timeline is:

~4 weeks ago: Merlin founds Silnaria

A flurry of OOC jokes about the realm name and OOC criticism of Merlin in the League of the Eagle guild.

Merlin sent this message:
Quote
Out-of-Character from Merlin Silverfire   (31 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (50 recipients)
If the 5th strongest realm on Atamara isn't real, then I don't know what is.

At any rate, I think these conversations can be kept out of the realm of OOC. If you want to hate on my character, do it in game so that there are repercussions for it.
TH

A few occasional IC jokes about the realm name and IC criticism of Merlin in the League of the Eagle guild. Which stops after about two weeks.

Wansu (Jason's player), who was not in the guild (not to mention I'm pretty sure he was paused at the time) and therefore not privy to all these messages, sent his OOC messages.

And speaking of Wansu's messages, while I agree that they were fairly offensive by Western standards, we have to remind ourselves that we have players from all over the world. I hear that, in some less civilized corners of the world, "fag" means "cigarette".  ;) These incidents should be treated as teachable moments (for both the speaker and the listeners), not opportunities to whip ourselves into some righteous, politically correct fury.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Vita on July 13, 2013, 02:19:43 AM
I believe the argument was that some nobles were ICly refusing to recognize Silnaria as a realm. Then TH chimed in OOCly that game mechanics trumps RP, and therefore Silnaria is too a real realm. And then I said, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so CE is still allied with Coria, not Silnaria." I can't guarantee that it was TH who sent the message, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't start the whole argument. I was responding to someone else.

My memory recalls it being some taran noble that brought up the OOC 'the League is allied with Coria, not Silnaria' so game mechanics trump roleplay argument, not TH.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Stabbity on July 13, 2013, 04:24:23 AM
Used in certain context its not possible to sanely state he was referring to a cigarette. Hammergay was used, and no one describes a group of people as cigarettes. Quit trying to [email protected]#$ing twist [email protected]#$ thats plain as day. When you use fag in reference to people it is never, ever tobacco rolled in paper.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on July 13, 2013, 04:38:47 AM
Used in certain context its not possible to sanely state he was referring to a cigarette. Hammergay was used, and no one describes a group of people as cigarettes. Quit trying to [email protected]#$ing twist [email protected]#$ thats plain as day. When you use fag in reference to people it is never, ever tobacco rolled in paper.

As someone who is bisexual, i find the attempt to explain it away as that doubly insulting.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 13, 2013, 07:47:46 AM
Used in certain context its not possible to sanely state he was referring to a cigarette. Hammergay was used, and no one describes a group of people as cigarettes. Quit trying to [email protected]#$ing twist [email protected]#$ thats plain as day. When you use fag in reference to people it is never, ever tobacco rolled in paper.
I was just using that as an example, as Wansu obviously did not say "fag". If you want a better example, maybe in India "gay" still means "happy". I don't know. I'm not an ethnolinguist.

Must you be so hostile all the time?
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: jaune on July 13, 2013, 08:14:22 AM
Must you be so hostile all the time?

I'm pretty sure thats what Silverfire felt reading all those messages.

What ticks me a bit, is that you dont seem to see anything wrong on those messages or the "gangbang" ooc/ic mocking?
I think we all can agree that those wasnt as individual messages that bad, but when there is several people pointing fingers 1 person and mocking him... we have problem. Not sure if it is worth anything else than inform people doing it that it sucks... but what worrys me is that you dont seem to see anything wrong happening here.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Blue Star on July 13, 2013, 09:53:38 AM
Magistrates please close this file and vote. Though the respected parties have spoken beside Jason elegant, I believe it is going into bickering and well useless chatter.

Yes, you can share your opinion of the matter, but at the end lets keep it steady and clean. I personally am not excited or enthusiastic on these circumstance that have arisen through when I see as in-game/ OCC mingling. It's perplexing what occurred, I am not saying it isn't. Weak case strong case that's not up to many of us.

Please lock this thread and vote, I am not asking but simply requesting. The talks going on are a month old in RL, I wonder why it took so long to come up but it did. I do wish this issue is resolved for it has made me question a few things.

I do see though his point, but I do see others. Let our judges vote and be done with it. I've seen a few comment regarding they are upset and may leave game, that is their choice, let us get over with this issue and move forth and make AT better...

I see this as do not speak OCC regarding another player and keep your mouth shut OCC wise. Sadly this is the precedent that is unfolding....

This game needs more people with thick skin, I take every insults as a character never as a player this is a game to have fun and isn't to win.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 13, 2013, 10:23:15 AM
I'm pretty sure thats what Silverfire felt reading all those messages.

What ticks me a bit, is that you dont seem to see anything wrong on those messages or the "gangbang" ooc/ic mocking?
I think we all can agree that those wasnt as individual messages that bad, but when there is several people pointing fingers 1 person and mocking him... we have problem. Not sure if it is worth anything else than inform people doing it that it sucks... but what worrys me is that you dont seem to see anything wrong happening here.

Except I'm trying to talk to him about it, not dragging him in front of the Magistrates as first reaction.

And for the umpteenth time, it's fine if it's directed against a noble. I personally find "suck my sock" to be offensive and hostile, because we both know you don't really mean "sock", but I'm not reporting you or Lavigna to the Magistrates because I understand that it's all in-character.

You are free to disagree. I guess the solution is going to be ceasing all in-game and in-forum communication with certain players... Now that's just sad.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Lavigna on July 13, 2013, 10:31:31 AM
And for the umpteenth time, it's fine if it's directed against a noble. I personally find "suck my sock" to be offensive and hostile, because we both know you don't really mean "sock", but I'm not reporting you or Lavigna to the Magistrates because I understand that it's all in-character.

Whoa, you must be new here.KK has actually posted that as an answer IN CHARACTER to rulers, he even received reports for vulgarity and received his loss of honor points for it.

So yeah.lol sad panda. Also it actually mean socks, dirty ones, dirty king's socks.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: [email protected] on July 13, 2013, 10:34:55 AM
Except I'm trying to talk to him about it, not dragging him in front of the Magistrates as first reaction.

And for the umpteenth time, it's fine if it's directed against a noble. I personally find "suck my sock" to be offensive and hostile, because we both know you don't really mean "sock", but I'm not reporting you or Lavigna to the Magistrates because I understand that it's all in-character.

You are free to disagree. I guess the solution is going to be ceasing all in-game and in-forum communication with certain players... Now that's just sad.

Please refrain from using stupid excuses for things that happen not in game but maybe in the forums or elsewhere in your defense. It is pathetic and you miss the point entirely. Especially since there are people who read your awesome post about women biology and the meetings they should have with a special kind of doctor.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: GoldPanda on July 13, 2013, 11:18:21 AM
Whoa, you must be new here.KK has actually posted that as an answer IN CHARACTER to rulers, he even received reports for vulgarity and received his loss of honor points for it.

So yeah.lol sad panda. Also it actually mean socks, dirty ones, dirty king's socks.

I don't think someone who insists on repeatedly calling me "Sad Panda" should judge whether I'm creating a toxic atmosphere for other players.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Dante Silverfire on July 13, 2013, 11:28:37 AM
I agree with the sentiment of closing this thread until a verdict is reached, unless the Magistrates have more questions to ask. This discussion is not helping anything.

If Jason has any comments he wants to add, he should be allowed to do so though.
Title:
Post by: Elegant on July 15, 2013, 07:29:30 PM
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Velax on August 03, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
So has a verdict been reached yet? The last post in this topic was nearly three weeks ago.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Geronus on August 05, 2013, 05:07:55 AM
The proposed verdict has been posted in the Backroom. Barring substantial objections to it, it will be posted here within a day or two.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Munro on August 13, 2013, 02:48:34 PM
Is there a reason it's taking so long to reach a verdict? This case was started well over a month ago and it's now been well over a week since we heard it would take a day or so to hear the final verdict.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Indirik on August 14, 2013, 06:25:22 PM
Discussion on this case is closed. The vote has already been taken, and the verdict is being written.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: ^ban^ on August 15, 2013, 01:27:15 PM
Quoting from Backroom discussion just to get this out here. If any Magistrates wanted this amended they should have spoken up in the last month.

Quote
A verdict has been reached, and IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict is:

"After consideration, the Magistrates find the defendants Not Guilty. We recognize that the player bringing the case feels that he has been harassed, but the pattern of behavior is, overall, relatively unobjectionable. We will close this case with a simple admonition to the players who were reported:  Please take the plaintiff's feelings into account and try to remember them when determining how to interact with him in the future. As ever, there's no call for rudeness, and whether we agree that what happened was harassment or not, the plaintiff did and does and those are valid feelings to have. Please do your best to make sure that he continues to feel welcome in the game and the community despite any disagreements you might have with him or his characters. We expect no less from anyone who plays the game.

Magistrates voted 4-0 in favor of a Not Guilty verdict.

This thread will remain open for any questions regarding the case."


Moderator note: ^ban^ posted the verdict for a different case. I have edited this post to quote the actual verdict for this case.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Indirik on August 15, 2013, 06:49:25 PM
Thread unlocked for a few days to allow for discussion of the verdict.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: ^ban^ on August 16, 2013, 01:02:10 AM
Hah, whoops. My bad!
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on August 16, 2013, 04:18:11 AM
I'd like to specifically ask whether the specific message from Jason about "Hammargays", etc. was considered. I'd rather not start a second case if it's already been considered and is determined to be resolved, but I also believe it warrants its own attention for a different reason than the original complaint here.

I don't want to seem like we're just trying to throw everything we can at Elegant, but it needs to be clear that such messages are unacceptable.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Elegant on August 16, 2013, 06:04:31 PM
Bro, I have often used the word "Hammarguys" (you can ask realm council, if they remember). I do not know how did I let that mistake happen in both the letters, i.e., the word "hammargays" (I was traveling in train and the game pressure was on). I did not mean to type that word referring to "gays", all I meant was "guys". If any gay person/general public is offended, I offer my apology. Anyway, it is a mistake and I bear the full responsibility of typing it, without offering any excuses, ready to take punishment.

I don't want to seem like we're just trying to throw everything we can at Elegant

You have thrown everything you could on me in this thread and it seems that you are not satisfied with the outcome. Punishing the player of Jason seems to be your top priority (instead of punishing the character Jason using your char in game). I did a mistake in poor word, but of course, please feel free to take this opportunity to file another case in front of whole game and further humiliate me by writing long posts explaining and magnifying the matter. For your satisfaction, I have already surrendered before you.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Elegant on August 16, 2013, 06:20:37 PM
I would like to say something to Silverfire.

Although Jason and Merlin may not become friends again, you and me can become great friends. You are always welcome. You already have my personal message which was sent long before this verdict was posted and you have replied to it. In-game actions are just for in-game.

(One of the best online friends I have, was once upon a time, my worst enemy and we used to catapult each other's villages)
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Geronus on August 16, 2013, 06:23:49 PM
That seems like a sufficient explanation to me.

For future reference, we will not tolerate any offensive language that relates to issues of race or sexuality in the real world.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on August 16, 2013, 08:28:02 PM
Bro, I have often used the word "Hammarguys" (you can ask realm council, if they remember). I do not know how did I let that mistake happen in both the letters, i.e., the word "hammargays" (I was traveling in train and the game pressure was on). I did not mean to type that word referring to "gays", all I meant was "guys". If any gay person/general public is offended, I offer my apology. Anyway, it is a mistake and I bear the full responsibility of typing it, without offering any excuses, ready to take punishment.

I don't want to seem like we're just trying to throw everything we can at Elegant

You have thrown everything you could on me in this thread and it seems that you are not satisfied with the outcome. Punishing the player of Jason seems to be your top priority (instead of punishing the character Jason using your char in game). I did a mistake in poor word, but of course, please feel free to take this opportunity to file another case in front of whole game and further humiliate me by writing long posts explaining and magnifying the matter. For your satisfaction, I have already surrendered before you.

"Bro", if it was an honest mistake, there's nothing to fear. You've said you apologize, claim it's a mistake, and are willing to take responsibility. That's good enough for me. All I'd have expected was a warning, and this accomplishes the same effect. There is a collective impetus to clean up the game; this is part of that. It's impossible to moderate IG messages, so a Magistrates case is the current established recourse.

That said, it's also important to recognize the error now as repeated use would indicate a lack of sincerity here.

Of course I'd aim to "punish" (warn) the player of Jason; it's an OOC (that is, player) issue. There were two issues with the letter, completely unrelated in terms of why they were suspect. If only one was considered, it doesn't make the other right; I was trying to be considerate of you by not starting the case when I saw the same letter being used as evidence here. "Top priority" is also incorrect; I continue to play the game as normal. My character has no issue with Jason's IC actions.

If you seriously believe this is about "my satisfaction", I cannot fathom how any further interaction would be productive at all. If the only reason you're apologizing is to make me happy, you've completely missed the point of the entire Magistrates system. If I'm misinterpreting this, I'd gladly retract my words, but you're making it very hard to believe any other explanation.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Elegant on August 16, 2013, 08:53:32 PM

 It's impossible to moderate IG messages, so a Magistrates case is the current established recourse.

you've completely missed the point of the entire Magistrates system. If I'm misinterpreting this, I'd gladly retract my words, but you're making it very hard to believe any other explanation.

You have missed it, not me.

Magistrates are for disputes. You did not tell me what was wrong in my message at that time, but, you were ready to open a magistrates case against me. If you had pointed out my mistake, I would have explained this and apologized. If I had resisted you in this matter, you could go to magistrates. But, what's the point of going to Magistrates when there was no dispute at all? We could have solved this issue that day itself without bothering Magistrates ! That's why I feel that you wanted to drag me unnecessarily in court.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Geronus on August 16, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
I think the matter is settled and nothing further needs to be said on it, but I will clarify the issue that Elegant has raised here:

As a matter of policy and preference, Elegant is correct. The Magistrates do ask that players who are offended by anything that another player does contact that player directly first and politely express their feelings prior to opening a Magistrate case. Equally, we expect anyone who is contacted in such a manner to apologize and immediately cease any offensive behavior. We then expect both parties to move on amicably.

In the event that two players cannot resolve their differences in this fashion, a case can be opened and we will rule on it, but please consider us more of a last resort than a first one.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Eirikr on August 16, 2013, 11:56:54 PM
You have missed it, not me.

Magistrates are for disputes. You did not tell me what was wrong in my message at that time, but, you were ready to open a magistrates case against me. If you had pointed out my mistake, I would have explained this and apologized. If I had resisted you in this matter, you could go to magistrates. But, what's the point of going to Magistrates when there was no dispute at all? We could have solved this issue that day itself without bothering Magistrates ! That's why I feel that you wanted to drag me unnecessarily in court.

I beg to differ; at least one OOC letter was sent about that, to which I do not recall you replying directly. In fact, the only follow-up (which was IC) took a rather unapologetic tone. Seeing as this was not the first time a similar situation had occurred (dubious message tone, not specifically the content), a Magistrates case seemed correct.

I can see your side, however. With all that was going on, I believe the OOC message was more generalized. You could have skipped over it or not realized it was directed at you. I, or someone else, should have been crystal clear and spoke to you directly. For that much, I apologize.

Either way, the point got across; the matter is settled as Geronus said.


I stand by my point, however, that rulings aren't for personal satisfaction, as you had implied. In vastly oversimplified terms, Magistrates aren't there to make people happy, they're there to determine, in a fair manner, whether or not we're all playing nice together, according to the rules.

Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: ^ban^ on August 17, 2013, 02:51:10 AM
Funny.

I don't see a single question in any of these posts following the verdict.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Penchant on August 17, 2013, 07:17:51 AM
Funny.

I don't see a single question in any of these posts following the verdict.
I'd like to specifically ask whether the specific message from Jason about "Hammargays", etc. was considered. I'd rather not start a second case if it's already been considered and is determined to be resolved, but I also believe it warrants its own attention for a different reason than the original complaint here.

I don't want to seem like we're just trying to throw everything we can at Elegant, but it needs to be clear that such messages are unacceptable.
Title: Re: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere
Post by: Tom on August 17, 2013, 09:10:38 AM
Clarification only, please. Verdict has been passed, discussion time is over.