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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: Delinquent on July 16, 2013, 05:39:07 PM
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I got this message and it didn't feel right to me.
Out-of-Character from ********** (3 days, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to: Akakios, Albion Manx, Echetlaeus, Jean Jacques, Kero, Sammy, Tailai
Greeting,
If you want to play adventurer game, and if you want join adventurer guild, create your adv at Fronen, Beluaterra. And if you want create another noble, please consider to join Fronen, Beluaterra. War just started there, so its the best time to join now..
About island, Beluaterra is special, you cant create any noble there. So if you want to play at beluaterra, create noble at other island, and after 14 day, you can go to city near the sea/river and emigrate to beluaterra.
If you interested, reply me.
star [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]
I posted the message here not to get someone in trouble, but more to establish what is and is not acceptable in recruiting characters. It's the overall attitude to recruiting in the game that bothers me and I'd like to call for a broader discussion.
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It's fairly common, and I don't see it violating any rules.
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It's fairly common, and I don't see it violating any rules.
It's factually wrong though. The best place to join is Riombara!
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Seriously, vonGenf? Can't we have a sincere discussion about this sort of thing without people just blatantly propagandizing in it?
On the forums, I think a certain amount of recruitment and propaganda is fine, especially within the individual continent subforums, and when people specifically ask for good places to play.
Within the game, though, I really don't feel like it's appropriate to send OOC messages attempting to induce people to join specific realms. If you want to recruit IC, and have your character say something like, "My brother in Fronen sends to say they're having a lot of trouble, and could use good warriors," while I don't think it's the best thing in the world to do, it's fully IC, and done for IC reasons.
This sort of OOC recruitment, especially just blatantly saying, "If you want to play an advy, create it in Fronen," full stop, is...I dunno, it just really rubs me the wrong way.
I don't think it's against any sort of rule, but it doesn't really feel to me like it's "playing a game as with friends".
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Personally, I dislike advertising for other realms in-game, either IC or OOC.
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I hate this kind of thing too, it's partly why I have many times refused to join Thalmarkin or anything Lurian :P. On IRC you see it all the time. Rulers sending private messages to new people getting them to join their realm with whatever kind of sweet talk or deal making, or even to old people in different realms trying to get them to switch their cities to them.
While it might not be technically against the rules it leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth and leaves people who don't stoop to such levels or don't have time to troll around for new people or don't read the forums/IRC at something of a disadvantage when more nobles comes at such a premium in the game at the moment.
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I agree here with Anaris to a great extent.
I think the difference on OOC recruiting is the situation the recruited person is in.
Especially since Delinquent/Aragon posts this, there is a good example:
I recruited Delinquent/Aragon on IRC back then when she was new to BM, and brought her to Perdan in order to mentor her to the game and of course also help my realm.
A win-win situation for the player and the realm.
She has was not part of another realm and also needed guidance.
If she was now part of another realm, I would not have done this, as every realm in BM needs the players for itsself.
Now, such random ingame messages to unknown players are troubling I think, because, as Anaris said, it could be solved easily IC.
The fact that we send to experienced players on IRC invitations is natural, everyone has done that, and in the end we always know that an exprienced player decides for himself what to do.
But as far as new players are concerned, I find it not good.
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You would think there would be more rules against meddling with the game OOC. The very fact that people are trying to win wars and improve their realm through non-character actions is in very bad taste, and goes against the entire concept of roleplaying.
It is my opinion that this game should do more to promote roleplaying and less to promote OOC interactions and meta-gaming. It always seems to end badly, and people get disillusioned.
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Seriously, vonGenf? Can't we have a sincere discussion about this sort of thing without people just blatantly propagandizing in it?
Sorry. Yes, we can have a proper discussion.
I agree with egamma: it's extremely common, and I've never seen it being frowned upon. I've joined realm based on such messages before. At least it tells you that a realm is interested in seeing new people.
The facebook page more or less encourages this sort of thing, in fact.
It's not like the poster is using his position in another realm to further his toals. It's done OOC: "if you are looking for a place to create a new characer, this is a fun one!"
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Officially speaking, it is not against the rules. Some may find it distasteful, but there's nothing wrong with it, at least until players start actually offering bribes to each other.
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I thnk experienced players ignore or can handle such messages. But this question came from a relative new player.
I think there is also the problem.
I believe that if the mentor class would be reinstated again, this would be, at least as far as new players are concerned, less troubling.
Back then it was much easier to "bind"new players to your char and realm via IC means, now there are just thrown into the cold water and then, well, whoever catches them first (or not at all), unfortunately.
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Officially speaking, it is not against the rules. Some may find it distasteful, but there's nothing wrong with it, at least until players start actually offering bribes to each other.
Actually, I don't think offering a bribe would be officially against the rules either. At least, I can't find anything in the Rules and Policies section that specifically forbids it.
But that's my point: just because there is no rule currently doesn't mean that one shouldn't be crafted. It would be hubris to assume that the system is perfect and therefore beyond the thought of changing.
I don't think anyone is trying to argue that OOC recruitment is illegal. I think it is an issue that is just now coming to light (at least for me it is), and we as players should discuss how we feel about it and perhaps come up with suggestions on how to improve the game.
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I like to think of this as the "playing with friends" rule. Would a friend say to you, "come play over here, it's fun"? Yes.
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I like to think of this as the "playing with friends" rule. Would a friend say to you, "come play over here, it's fun"? Yes.
I think a lot of the problem is in presentation.
The quote in the OP isn't saying, "Hey, guys, it's a lot of fun in Fronen! You should come, too!"
It's saying, "If you want to create an adventurer, create one in Fronen. If you want to create a noble, create one somewhere else, then emigrate it to Fronen. We just started a war." (The implication being, "So we need more people to help fight it.")
Furthermore, it's an IG OOC message. If it were being sent via some OOG channel, I wouldn't think much of it, but this is more like blatant advertisement being pushed in your face.
Rather than a friend simply saying, "Hey, it's fun over here! You should come be here too!", I would characterize it more as being like a billboard being thrust in your face, or a used-car-salesman-type appearing in front of you and shouting, "Hey everybody! Fronen's the place to be! Everyone should be in Fronen! Fronen: The Fun Place™!"
It smacks of advertisement and artificiality, especially because it's being sent to this broad group of (I believe) adventurers.
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Actually, I don't think offering a bribe would be officially against the rules either. At least, I can't find anything in the Rules and Policies section that specifically forbids it.
But that's my point: just because there is no rule currently doesn't mean that one shouldn't be crafted. It would be hubris to assume that the system is perfect and therefore beyond the thought of changing.
I don't think anyone is trying to argue that OOC recruitment is illegal. I think it is an issue that is just now coming to light (at least for me it is), and we as players should discuss how we feel about it and perhaps come up with suggestions on how to improve the game.
When it comes to bribes, I think that falls under the fair play clause.
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I dislike it because it has an implicit declaration of "this realm sucks, come to Keplerstan, where everything is more fun!"
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Heh, in many cases it's not even implicit. It's literally "Keplerstan is the most fun, why would you join another realm, they suck!"
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In my opinion, it's a sales pitch regardless of the implications or presentation. Saying 'Hey, come over here if you want to have fun' is what you would call a 'soft sell', but it is a sell nonetheless.
The end result is that players are being rewarded for promoting their realm OOC, and thus those who play strictly IC are being punished for not being more coldly entrepreneurial. It places a higher value on the meta-game, which is something that ought to be discouraged in what is supposed to be primarily a role-playing game.
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It places a higher value on the meta-game, which is something that ought to be discouraged in what is supposed to be primarily a role-playing game.
You know, that's a wonderful idea, but my gut tells me that there's something wrong with it.
Edit: I know what it is! I'm not my character. Where I place a character is based on the information that I know.
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You know, that's a wonderful idea, but my gut tells me that there's something wrong with it.
Edit: I know what it is! I'm not my character. Where I place a character is based on the information that I know.
True, but so is every other action you take when actually playing your character, if you think about it. Playing a role in a game is how you interpret the game mechanics as part of the narrative.
I think what your gut is telling you is that it would feel more like an infringement on freedom of speech outside of the game to try and curb OOC recruitment. It's okay to control what characters can say or do in game for the sake of setting and such, and precisely because we are NOT our characters, but when you're controlling how the players themselves can interact it feels different.
Crap. I just basically shot down my own argument, didn't I?
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Crap. I just basically shot down my own argument, didn't I?
;D
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I'm don't think these kinds of realm promotions work very well and can backfire by repelling people.
But, to add some additional context, if its from who I think it is then the player who sent the ooc message is relatively new to the game (less than 1 year) and not a native english speaker.
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I think what your gut is telling you is that it would feel more like an infringement on freedom of speech outside of the game to try and curb OOC recruitment.
That's not it at all. I could care less about "freedom of speech". You have no right to it here. This is not an organization run by the US government, or any other government. In fact (and other devs and magistrates can confirm this if they'd like) I'm typically heavy-handed when it comes to community moderation.
I find it hard to believe that even 1% of players choose a realm for a new character based on only IC information. I've only done it once myself and that was as part of Oligarch's WCC revenge plans. The WCC sure as hell wasn't standard back then and its like is even less common now.
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In just about every game you give up your freedom of speech by agreeing to the EULA or whatever it's called.
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What is wrong here, IMO, is to do it OOC. OOC is never good for the game, but sometimes we do.
I think I did this once, to recruit OOC I mean, I can not remember for sure, but certainly did not think I was wrong. Nor do I think it is wrong to recruit the forum or IRC, something that I have already been criticized. For me, this is part of "playing with friends." When you play something you like, you can call your friends to play with you.
I have been watching what is happening. I have seen many old players starting a new account and leaving it a few days later.
I can see a kingdom that strives for good PR and still can not find noble enough to cover the positions.
I've been seeing some players watching everything the others do and criticizing them when they think they did something wrong.
We all are certainly doing something very wrong because our player base decreases noticeably, and if we do not figure out what it is, we will soon be reduced to just a few players who think the same way.
In my opinion, part of the problem is all the written and unwritten rules that appear every day. Tom made few rules deliberately. These few rules worked before, why do more and more?
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I encourage recruitment posts for the FB page. There's been a few good 'Knights Wanted' posts in the past.
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In my opinion, part of the problem is all the written and unwritten rules that appear every day. Tom made few rules deliberately. These few rules worked before, why do more and more?
Wait, where do I find the unwritten rules? If there are rules that are not written down that I should know about, please let me know now so I don't break them.
I encourage recruitment posts for the FB page. There's been a few good 'Knights Wanted' posts in the past.
See, I think that's a more practical and tasteful solution. Putting out a general post saying "Hear ye, hear ye! My Kingdom needs stalwart Knights!" is different from privately trying to sell a new player on your realm.
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I have mixed feelings about OOC recruitment of any kind, IG or OOG. On the one hand, we have a player shortage, and recruiting is how we fix it. On the other hand, I really hate how so much of winning wars these days seems to be OOC recruiting nobles to migrate to your realm. Declare war and BAM, you get a rush of new nobles created, immigrated, etc, as OOC word spreads.
IMHO, this isn't against the rules. It makes sense to do, and I don't think it's particularly harmful to the game. At the same time, I do think it's tasteless, and, personally, I would probably send a private message to the person, politely (emphasis on POLITELY) telling them so.
And can I say...
I've only done it once myself and that was as part of Oligarch's WCC revenge plans. The WCC sure as hell wasn't standard back then and its like is even less common now.
Good times... good times.
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I think a lot of the problem is in presentation.
The quote in the OP isn't saying, "Hey, guys, it's a lot of fun in Fronen! You should come, too!"
It's saying, "If you want to create an adventurer, create one in Fronen. If you want to create a noble, create one somewhere else, then emigrate it to Fronen. We just started a war." (The implication being, "So we need more people to help fight it.")
Furthermore, it's an IG OOC message. If it were being sent via some OOG channel, I wouldn't think much of it, but this is more like blatant advertisement being pushed in your face.
Rather than a friend simply saying, "Hey, it's fun over here! You should come be here too!", I would characterize it more as being like a billboard being thrust in your face, or a used-car-salesman-type appearing in front of you and shouting, "Hey everybody! Fronen's the place to be! Everyone should be in Fronen! Fronen: The Fun Place™!"
It smacks of advertisement and artificiality, especially because it's being sent to this broad group of (I believe) adventurers.
I disagree with you on quite a bit of that actually.
Adventurer guilds can make being an adventurer much better when they are actually used. If someone were to ask me where to make an adventurer, I would recommend Fissoa, Dwilight. They have the Fissoa Verminators or something like that its called. I am actually not in the guild to help the guild but for some other, unrelated reasons. The letters I receive have shown me it seems that the guild makes being an advy quite a bit better thus it would/could make a difference in choosing where to be an advy.
While you see them mentioning war as them saying they need nobles, I see it very differently. BM can be very hard to have fun without war as a simple knight, which is something I think needs to change, thus if they is war there is a much larger chance of fun as a simple or new knight.
Overall what I am trying to say is that they are giving reasons why Fronen is fun and not, strangely as you would prefer, just saying the realm is fun which seems more like boring advertisement of Fronen for gain for them then actually trying to help people to find a good realm.
Due to the advy game sometimes having issues with being fun I wouldn't see it as terrible to let some nearby advys (actually probably all they advy's of his realm) that Fronen is a fun a place to play. I can't say I love the idea of the OOC IG recommendations to a group of people (to one person can be a bit different) but I don't think this was so terrible it deserves to be banned in general.
To OOG recruiting, I see nothing wrong with it. I would hope people are recruiting people to realm's they will have fun in meaning I don't care if you are recruiting for your realm but I hope if you are recruiting for your realm, its actually a fun place to be or someone there is working on reviving it. While most recruit for their realms, not everyone does. A couple weeks ago someone was looking for a good realm to join and I convinced them Silnaria would be great for them. Lastly, OOG recruiting on a non-BM thing it is always good if you are recruiting to an actually fun realm while recruiting to a boring realm does hurt BM because they see BM as not fun, thus making them more likely to quit and they chance they discourage others from playing.
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BM can be very hard to have fun without war as a simple knight, which is something I think needs to change
+1
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I was about to quit this game 2 weeks in, and if I hadn't gone on IRC and had a chat about fun realms to play in then I would have.
This game just isn't inviting or easy to new players who have no idea of mechanics, no idea of whats fun and no idea how to play. If they join a smaller realm hoping to not get killed 5min in, then they will often be bored if there is no war currently happening.
Also players can be unwilling to experiment, and would rather just quit. Its a hard game to wrap your head around sometimes.
I personally think that if new players weren't enticed then a lot would leave, and I don't care about bribes if it means there are more players. Because after the wars are done and people have learnt some stuff they will move on and find new things to do, new islands to play on or switch realms. Bribes are just a means to an end.
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I was about to quit this game 2 weeks in, and if I hadn't gone on IRC and had a chat about fun realms to play in then I would have.
This game just isn't inviting or easy to new players who have no idea of mechanics, no idea of whats fun and no idea how to play. If they join a smaller realm hoping to not get killed 5min in, then they will often be bored if there is no war currently happening.
Also players can be unwilling to experiment, and would rather just quit. Its a hard game to wrap your head around sometimes.
I personally think that if new players weren't enticed then a lot would leave, and I don't care about bribes if it means there are more players. Because after the wars are done and people have learnt some stuff they will move on and find new things to do, new islands to play on or switch realms. Bribes are just a means to an end.
I can completely understand this, and agree. This is a lot of what I am trying to mitigate with my changes to the character creation process and the newbie experience in general. As part of that, I am working with Vellos to develop some surveys that will be given to new players and existing players about their realms, in order to try to gauge the overall tone of each of them. This information should make it easier for new players to find realms that actually suit them. However, I am very open to more suggestions on how to improve this further.
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I can completely understand this, and agree. This is a lot of what I am trying to mitigate with my changes to the character creation process and the newbie experience in general. As part of that, I am working with Vellos to develop some surveys that will be given to new players and existing players about their realms, in order to try to gauge the overall tone of each of them. This information should make it easier for new players to find realms that actually suit them. However, I am very open to more suggestions on how to improve this further.
But we must finished our region gold rebalance.. After that, you may start your surveys...