BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom on August 18, 2013, 09:20:04 AM
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I'm trying to sum up past discussions and my thoughts and want to invite you to join me to find the best way to move forward.
Locals / Roleplaying Forum
There are a number of good ideas here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5022.0.html
...as well as scattered over other topics.
The basic gist is that we should have a board to discuss in-game events, but it needs to be moderated so that it does not take gameplay away from the game.
For roleplays, that is fairly easy, the requirement would be that you may only post stuff that has been posted in-game, and only after it has run its course in-game (i.e. other people have reacted, the event is concluded).
I propose to rename the "roleplaying" forum into "gameplay" or something similar, and merge the locals boards into it. This way, we have one place where all in-game discussions take place, giving it less of an impression of being a closed circle, opening it up more since everything mixes with everything else.
This way I think we can satisfy both those who want to spread the in-game events that make them happy to a larger crowd and the many silent players who would rather just play the game and still be sure they don't miss anything.
Island Closing
It's become clear from the discussion that all islands are loved by many people, and closing any will upset people. Yet we must. The game was always designed with a certain player density in mind and the additional game world (we started with one island once!) were always opened in response to increasing player counts. The only logical answer to dropping player counts is closing an island, at least temporarily. I would love there to be another way, but there isn't.
It's also clear a forum discussion won't give us a result, and on such an important point we really need to ask all players, not just the 10-20% that frequent the forum.
I propose (and will discuss the details with the dev team) to run an in-game survey, so we get everyone's opinion. Then we will make a decision, and it'll be one of the toughest ever made. One thing I know for certain is that whatever island(s) gets the axe won't be deleted, but frozen. Should player counts increase again, it will be opened up again. There will also be some kind of option for whole realms to move collectively so they can keep their culture and community.
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So a small aspect of what you are saying I would like to disagree with for now, which is labelling it gameplay, because that would IMO add to the impression that the forums is necessary to be done/that gameplay actually happens there, when the title of the board is gameplay.
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Gameplay: Sounds good to me.
Island Closing: Yes. Ask everyone. Everyone should get a chance to express their thoughts on deciding which island to close. I think it is important to ask people how they want to move as a collective group as well. The only problem I have is, if people do move collectively doesn't that force a certain group to move to another continent? What I mean by this is, what if your group in lets say Beluaterra decides to move to Atamara and you already have two characters there. Do you get a third one or are you forced to leave your group and join some other continent by yourself?
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Surely the way island freezing will work is a few weeks notice to let people immigrate if they want, and then indefinite pausing every remaining character and stopping the turn script. I don't see why you need to think about "moving collectively".
Re: character limits, I think response will be "tough !@#$".
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So a small aspect of what you are saying I would like to disagree with for now, which is labelling it gameplay, because that would IMO add to the impression that the forums is necessary to be done/that gameplay actually happens there, when the title of the board is gameplay.
True, that. Better suggestion?
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The only problem I have is, if people do move collectively doesn't that force a certain group to move to another continent? What I mean by this is, what if your group in lets say Beluaterra decides to move to Atamara and you already have two characters there. Do you get a third one or are you forced to leave your group and join some other continent by yourself?
Character limits will remain in effect. But there will be enough warning that you can also move one of your other characters elsewhere.
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I still think its a bit weird merging the Roleplay and the Locals. The roleplay sub-forum have always been more of a place for reading and archiving; while the locals are more participatory in nature.
Maybe we could have an Game Discussion forum and then divide it into the roleplay and the non-roleplay subforum. Or would that defeat the purpose?
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Yes, it is weird and that is exactly the point.
Both are, essentially, about what's going on in the game. They both should move closer to each other in style. The roleplaying forum could do with a bit more participation, to give posters feedback. The locals forums could do with less discussion and hatred and (thinky veiled) in-character fighting and more reading and watching with a bit of (emotional) distance.
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While I agree with your statements of what each of the boards could use, I don't think merging them is a realistic way to get it.
Specifically, I think what is most likely to happen is that while the RPs posted there would get some more attention, and some replies, overall, the tone of the board would stay pretty much the same as the Locals. And yes, I think that means that some comments posted on the roleplays would be nasty. I certainly don't see people writing less on topics that are not roleplays just because the roleplays are intermingled. At worst, I see people bitching and moaning about having to sift through roleplays that "no one really cares about" just to read the topics that are important to them (though given the volume of the RP board in the recent past, I doubt that will be much of a problem).
Relatedly, I would like to ask you to clarify something: Are you proposing to merge all the separate continent boards into one Locals board, with the RP in it, or separate continent boards, with both discussion and RP for the continent to be posted there?
(As for naming, I'm not sure there is a better name than simply "locals" or something similar for a board that is explicitly both IC and OOC, and because of that dichotomy, I'm really not sure it will have anything like the kind of positive effects you hope for...)
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True, that. Better suggestion?
Events and Analysis?
News and Commentary?
I'm trying to think of a wording that implies that a degree of detachment is the norm, rather than "we hate realm X".
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Yes, it is weird and that is exactly the point.
Both are, essentially, about what's going on in the game. They both should move closer to each other in style. The roleplaying forum could do with a bit more participation, to give posters feedback. The locals forums could do with less discussion and hatred and (thinky veiled) in-character fighting and more reading and watching with a bit of (emotional) distance.
I'm afraid this would blur the line between IC and OOC maybe a bit too much. I think the RP board should at the very least remain its own separate subforum within the large "Gameplay" board (or whatever we call it).
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Why not just call it "OOC Discussion"?
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I propose (and will discuss the details with the dev team) to run an in-game survey, so we get everyone's opinion.
From an end user perspective, the most effective way to survey all players would be at the login page, rather than in-game. Once the player logs in, they can be re-directed to a survey page, then given the option to either take the survey or skip it. If creating a survey page is too much work, you could use a third-party service like Survey Monkey, which is very widely used and might even be free.
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I have an idea to hopefully prevent the need to freeze an island, through a game-wide effort by all to improve player retention.
What if a game-wide announcement was posted, for everyone to see, asking all players to come together to make the game more appealing, lest one of the islands be closed. I think we could solve a lot of retention problems if there was just a bit more chatter going on around realms. Right now, out of the three realms I play in only Riombara has any semblance of people talking outside of the usual realm affairs. In Sorraine, 95% of messages i got the past 7 days are either turn reports, scout reports or reports of TOs being helped. Astrum is a bit better, though for a realm with almost thrice the number of nobles as Sorraine, I wouldn't call it much of an improvement. Rulers could make extra effort to act as the figurehead of their realm, rather than sit quietly and let their subordinates do the work. Lords could make extra effort to just talk to their vassals and make them feel like they're more than just estate occupiers. Especially newer players would feel more inclined to keep playing and possibly even invite some of their friends to the game.
Making your realm interesting can be as simple as a few letters going up and down the chain of command, beyond the usual orders and reports. Right now in many places BM is just a strategy game, and there is almost zero roleplaying going on (and by roleplaying I don't just mean narrative RPs, I mean nobles interacting among eachother). To me, the reason I've been playing BM for over 8 years now is that it was an entirely unique game, but it's lost a lot of its flair recently. But I don't think that the problem will be (or even can be) solved by adding or removing mechanics. I get the feeling that a lot of players are expecting Tom and the dev team to come up with solutions, but to say it with a huge cliché: true change starts with one's self.
The community is what makes BM unique, so the community bears a responsibility to keep it that way. If enough of us put in a little bit of extra effort, I think it will create a snowball effect, involving more and more people until the game is back to the level of activity it had years ago. And it really can be as simple as just sending a few letters here and there.
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True, that. Better suggestion?
The Battlemaster Newspaper.
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I'm afraid this would blur the line between IC and OOC maybe a bit too much. I think the RP board should at the very least remain its own separate subforum within the large "Gameplay" board (or whatever we call it).
That's the point. Everything on the forum is OOC, even the RP - it is OOC because it is reposted for archive and distribution, not as an in-character posting. Basically, it's a sports show on TV, not the actual sports.
And that puts it on the same level as the locals.
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Another way to address the low noble count is to re-think the character limits rules. That doesn't mean abolishing character limits, but perhaps the rules can be tweaked. For example:
- Rather than increasing +1 every 12 months, every 9 or 10 months instead.
- Offer a +1 to certain players on the condition that their character will be in a fledgling realm or island.
- Give out more medals
- Give a fam/honour/prestige boost to players who go to fledgling, or less desirable realms or islands.
These are just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure the BattleMaster Brain-Trust, i.e. the collective genius of all of us, could come up with more and better innovations.
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I think 'gameplay' as a header is a bit misleading. Something more specific like "In-Game Rumor" or "Propaganda" or something similar that conveys that it is information directly from game events but in now way is necessary information for casual players.
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I think 'gameplay' as a header is a bit misleading. Something more specific like "In-Game Rumor" or "Propaganda" or something similar that conveys that it is information directly from game events but in now way is necessary information for casual players.
That makes it sound completely meta-gamey, which I thought was what we were trying to avoid. Sounds like Tom is more interested in clearly establishing the forum as a pure OOC venue. Better that it be "Island Discussion" or "Game Discussion."
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That makes it sound completely meta-gamey, which I thought was what we were trying to avoid. Sounds like Tom is more interested in clearly establishing the forum as a pure OOC venue. Better that it be "Island Discussion" or "Game Discussion."
Perhaps then have island-specific child boards under the General Discussion board.
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Instead of letting people discuss like before, why not only allow people to post news or information?
Disallow people from commenting on each other's posts. That way we may avoid people bickering over senseless stuff again.
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Instead of letting people discuss like before, why not only allow people to post news or information?
Disallow people from commenting on each other's posts. That way we may avoid people bickering over senseless stuff again.
If you want to prevent people from bickering, don't forbid all discussion. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just moderate the various posts well, so that bickering is nipped in the bud, and before too long, people will start to understand what's permitted and what's not, and mostly stop bickering of their own accord.
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Another way to address the low noble count is to re-think the character limits rules. That doesn't mean abolishing character limits, but perhaps the rules can be tweaked. For example:
- Rather than increasing +1 every 12 months, every 9 or 10 months instead.
- Offer a +1 to certain players on the condition that their character will be in a fledgling realm or island.
- Give out more medals
- Give a fam/honour/prestige boost to players who go to fledgling, or less desirable realms or islands.
These are just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure the BattleMaster Brain-Trust, i.e. the collective genius of all of us, could come up with more and better innovations.
While BM is lacking characters its more of a player density issue than a character density issue. Same players, more characters? Thats less time to send messages and its also more spread around so instead of three characters with 4 messages sent each they have the same amount of time so it becomes 4 characters with 3 messages each. Increasing active character limit is not a solution to the problem.
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While BM is lacking characters its more of a player density issue than a character density issue. Same players, more characters? Thats less time to send messages and its also more spread around so instead of three characters with 4 messages sent each they have the same amount of time so it becomes 4 characters with 3 messages each. Increasing active character limit is not a solution to the problem.
Valid points, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because something's not an ideal fix, doesn't mean that it can't help. Instead of sinking an island, which I would consider the nuclear option, we should first explore "lighter touch" solutions that could alleviate the problem.
- More characters = More stuff happens = Players are more engaged = More fun = Less stagnancy = Higher retention rate.
Also, don't assume that all players are spending all of their available time already. BM is pretty slow-moving game by design, and the amount of time people spend trolling these discussion boards is evidence that some people have extra capacity.
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Before freezing an entire island, consider freezing individual realms, regions or duchies. Start with the least heavy-handed fixes and then escalate as necessary. I know that Tom has said he doesn't like having to use "the hand of god coming down from the sky" to address IG issues.
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Just pick an island to axe already. Survey, why? It's not a democracy.
And I'm not sure about strange mechanics to transfer realms or whatever. That sounds a bit too much like Nationstates "a fleet of helicopters" transporting your nation when you switch from one region to another. Just freeze the island and the characters migrate, becoming individual refugees of some unexplainable apocalypse. They could go where they want rather than being herded toward some magically appearing real estate or ... however it's going to be.
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The survey will be good.
As for the new forum name I think "OOC Game Discussion" would be a good title.
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Also, don't assume that all players are spending all of their available time already. BM is pretty slow-moving game by design, and the amount of time people spend trolling these discussion boards is evidence that some people have extra capacity.
This is correct. I have the time and inclination to write one or two roleplays a day, but as it is there simply isn't enough stuff going on in game for me to base them around. As a result, I tend to only write a single roleplay every few days.
Excess roleplay time goes toward pointless forum posting.
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Freezing regions/duchies/realms is considerably more work than freezing an island, and not just because you have to do it multiple times. Its just....a mess. Also, you'd have to determine *which* regions/duchies/realms to freeze, then deal with accusations of favoritism and bias.
I don't look forward to this, at all, but I'd rather play a game with higher density than have all the islands. Those who played prior to 2007 likely understand this well. And I have reasons for liking all the islands too, due to the background I've built for my new family. We should be content with the fact that Tom is only freezing the islands and not deleting them completely like the war islands were.
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This is correct. I have the time and inclination to write one or two roleplays a day, but as it is there simply isn't enough stuff going on in game for me to base them around. As a result, I tend to only write a single roleplay every few days.
Excess roleplay time goes toward pointless forum posting.
You're on point with this one. I wonder if the forums suddenly went down & closed, if BM would see a renaissance of amazing roleplays and storylines?
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You're on point with this one. I wonder if the forums suddenly went down & closed, if BM would see a renaissance of amazing roleplays and storylines?
Nope. It would see a lot of its most active players get disgusted and either cut back their BM time considerably or leave.
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Valid points, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because something's not an ideal fix, doesn't mean that it can't help. Instead of sinking an island, which I would consider the nuclear option, we should first explore "lighter touch" solutions that could alleviate the problem.
- More characters = More stuff happens = Players are more engaged = More fun = Less stagnancy = Higher retention rate.
Also, don't assume that all players are spending all of their available time already. BM is pretty slow-moving game by design, and the amount of time people spend trolling these discussion boards is evidence that some people have extra capacity.
Not necessarily. More characters can actually lead to less time per character and that can result to more silent zombies.
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I see child boards all the time, why not just put Roleplay under it, I believe it needs to be kept separated from OOC Discussion. It would actually be easier to moderate also as you only have 2 places to check. Having all the islands under one tab is not end of the world and can be worked with imo.
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Fwiw - I read the forums by checking the Unread Posts function. I don't know or really care where a post appears. Changing the organization of the child boards, or where specific things are posted would have absolutely no effect on how I use the forums. I imagine there are quite a few others who do as I do, by placing specific boards on Ignore, and reading everything else.
Reorganizing the boards is a pointless exercise that gives you a good feeling, but accomplishes nothing whatsoever.
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I think one of the purpose to reorganizing the Locals was that it was seen as more of an open forum to non-forum users. And i think that it may change the perception of the locals and the possibly how people react and act in the locals
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Not necessarily. More characters can actually lead to less time per character and that can result to more silent zombies.
I'm sure there are some players who do have the time and would gladly invest in an additional character given the chance. Those who don't, are not required to do so.
You can come up with a list of criticisms for any suggestion in the abstract. The dev team has floated its solution which has pros and cons, but like I said before, why not try to come up with some less heavy-handed measures first and try them out before using the nuclear option?
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I think we should just bring back the 3 noble characters for new players, then perhaps make it easier to get the 4th noble?
1) 10? fame
2) 5? medals
3) 2? years
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Not necessarily. More characters can actually lead to less time per character and that can result to more silent zombies.
This is right. But new players probably should have possibility for more chars. Because when you know nothing about the game and you occasionally pick the realm which is inactive and boring - it is discouraging.
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Though I also espouse such radical ideas as everyone getting one noble slot per continent, I do think that a return to three starting nobles for new accounts, like it used to be, would be a great step for newbie retention. I'm also hesitant as to whether new players should be given adventurers right away, considering BM is a social game and the advy game is very quiet. It used to be 30-90 days since account creation iirc and I think that should return too.
Tom, please please please let new players have three starting nobles, not two.
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This is right. But new players probably should have possibility for more chars. Because when you know nothing about the game and you occasionally pick the realm which is inactive and boring - it is discouraging.
That actually is being worked on so that you get to know a little bit more about the realm, its activity, opportunity, and war in the last 30 days measured in various ways that I don't recall at the moment but I could give more info about it, when its actually done or when I am at least not tired. Thus that should be less of an issue in the future.
I think we should just bring back the 3 noble characters for new players, then perhaps make it easier to get the 4th noble?
1) 10? fame
2) 5? medals
3) 2? years
It currently 5 fame for 3 nobles, 20 fame for +1 active character, +1 active character for 5 medals, which I am unsure of how that is easyish, +1 for donating although thats limited timewise based on how much you donated, and instead of 5 medals you can also be a long time player, although it doesn't say how long is a long time player.
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It currently 5 fame for 3 nobles, 20 fame for +1 active character, +1 active character for 5 medals, which I am unsure of how that is easyish, +1 for donating although thats limited timewise based on how much you donated, and instead of 5 medals you can also be a long time player, although it doesn't say how long is a long time player.
Does anybody get medals anymore?
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This is right. But new players probably should have possibility for more chars. Because when you know nothing about the game and you occasionally pick the realm which is inactive and boring - it is discouraging.
In order to get medals, you either have to befriend people with lots of medals or else post really really awesome roleplays where they can see. Doing these things will probably get you the medals you crave, after one year.
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Does anybody get medals anymore?
Got, I just give those medals to people who are talking in the realms and those I found interesting, fun and trusted. So go on, continue talking in the realm and make things interesting in game, who know, someone will reward you with medals 8)
Back on topic though. Roleplay as a Sub-Board on its own is nice, it used to gather a lot of followers back then. Under Local board, people may not read it as people have their own islands preference to read...
About closing island. Do take the Uniqueness of islands into account and each other players input. For example, some islands have like 1 turn a day is good for older players or those who prefer playing slow. Maybe we can drown those rogue regions instead, redraw maps though I know this likely to be rejected.
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Tom, please please please let new players have three starting nobles, not two.
+1
This is very important to return.
Based on the feedback I get as well from mentored players.
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Not necessarily. More characters can actually lead to less time per character and that can result to more silent zombies.
You are not required to use every noble slot you have available, you know. Up until the last few days, I had only one noble around because I was having time issues, and I'm able to have 3 nobles (still... after 3 years on this account).
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This is correct. I have the time and inclination to write one or two roleplays a day, but as it is there simply isn't enough stuff going on in game for me to base them around. As a result, I tend to only write a single roleplay every few days.
Excess roleplay time goes toward pointless forum posting.
More Kwansteins = More fun.
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Bumping this since it went ignored...
I have an idea to hopefully prevent the need to freeze an island, through a game-wide effort by all to improve player retention.
What if a game-wide announcement was posted, for everyone to see, asking all players to come together to make the game more appealing, lest one of the islands be closed. I think we could solve a lot of retention problems if there was just a bit more chatter going on around realms. Right now, out of the three realms I play in only Riombara has any semblance of people talking outside of the usual realm affairs. In Sorraine, 95% of messages i got the past 7 days are either turn reports, scout reports or reports of TOs being helped. Astrum is a bit better, though for a realm with almost thrice the number of nobles as Sorraine, I wouldn't call it much of an improvement. Rulers could make extra effort to act as the figurehead of their realm, rather than sit quietly and let their subordinates do the work. Lords could make extra effort to just talk to their vassals and make them feel like they're more than just estate occupiers. Especially newer players would feel more inclined to keep playing and possibly even invite some of their friends to the game.
Making your realm interesting can be as simple as a few letters going up and down the chain of command, beyond the usual orders and reports. Right now in many places BM is just a strategy game, and there is almost zero roleplaying going on (and by roleplaying I don't just mean narrative RPs, I mean nobles interacting among eachother). To me, the reason I've been playing BM for over 8 years now is that it was an entirely unique game, but it's lost a lot of its flair recently. But I don't think that the problem will be (or even can be) solved by adding or removing mechanics. I get the feeling that a lot of players are expecting Tom and the dev team to come up with solutions, but to say it with a huge cliché: true change starts with one's self.
The community is what makes BM unique, so the community bears a responsibility to keep it that way. If enough of us put in a little bit of extra effort, I think it will create a snowball effect, involving more and more people until the game is back to the level of activity it had years ago. And it really can be as simple as just sending a few letters here and there.
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Well if Islands wanted to see only there island roleplay then make a basic rule in Subject line such as :Island Realm Title: That would resolve any issues there but it needs to be kept simple.
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retention isn't even half the problem.
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retention isn't even half the problem.
Really? Then enlighten us on the real problems. I would like to hear it. (Read, here same thing)
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problem: lots of people left the game. This is a problem with past retention and cannot be solved even if current retention magically changed to 100%. You may say, isn't this a past problem then? No because low player density is a current problem.
problem: very few new people joining the game
problem: not enough people continuing to play once joining
problem: people are quitting
The things you could examine are; new player recruitment, new player retention, old people retention, player density manipulation
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Bumping this since it went ignored...
I totally agree with most of what you said, but I can't imagine a petition to be a reliable way to solve the issue... one can't simply expect people to start playing "better" because someone pointed out that this might help the game. Unfortunately, vice versa is also quite true: simple game mechanics changes won't really push people into changing their game style. The means to create interesting dynamics are already out there, yet almost everyone (me included) are ignoring them.
What I guess could be the only way out of this I can imagine is to have new and motivated players, who would experience many of these dynamics for the first time and engage in them with the enthusiasm most of us lost simply because we already had our fun with them. Attracting new players and keeping them thus seems the most natural solution to the issues you raised. However, an uninteresting environment hurts a lot more player retention than any other fix can help, and low player retention means less potentially interesting characters coming up.
It's pretty complicated..
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I think you might be surprised what efforts people will try to make when their favorite island is at stake.
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I think you might be surprised what efforts people will try to make when their favorite island is at stake.
Ok but even if you're right the effects of this would be seen only on the very long term, while it seems Tom is looking for a solution in a relatively shorter timeframe. Don't you think?
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I think you might be surprised what efforts people will try to make when their favorite island is at stake.
I don't know about it... I made a 'communication guild' to try to put a bit of the 'life' of the forums in BM... I made it public for all the nobles in my realm and for the rulers of all other realms... Nobody has answered, and only one (who knew about it beforehand in the forum) had entered in the guild. ::)
Not a very successful beginning, but I don't surrender so easy! >:(
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Nobody has answered, and only one (who knew about it beforehand in the forum) had entered in the guild. ::)
I just happened to be in the region when you created it. :)
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problem: lots of people left the game. This is a problem with past retention and cannot be solved even if current retention magically changed to 100%. You may say, isn't this a past problem then? No because low player density is a current problem.
problem: very few new people joining the game
problem: not enough people continuing to play once joining
problem: people are quitting
The things you could examine are; new player recruitment, new player retention, old people retention, player density manipulation
You have identified two problems: Getting new players, and keeping existing players. If we did somehow magically get 100% retention, then I can guarantee you that eventually, all our player density problems would be solved. It may take a while, but we would eventually get to where we wanted to be, if no one ever left. :)
These are both problems that we know exist. We have identified the problems, and many people have frequently pointed them out. The question isn't "What are our problems?", it's "How can we fix our problems?"
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Easy way to increase n° of new players joining:
-Allow @hotmail people to create accounts. Most people aren't going to bother making a new email adress just to see how a game is if they only have a hotmail email adress. I know some cases of this.
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Do people still use hotmail? really?
Apparently.
One bright spark—truly, the jewel of humanity—even cares so much about the rights of Hotmail users that when he found that he was unable to sign up for BM with his Hotmail address, he signed up under a throwaway email and set up a crude denial of service attack against the game by causing an endless loop of Titan reports, which said, among other things, that our discrimination against Hotmail was "evil" and "racist."
And then he wondered (on IRC) why he was being IP-banned from the game.
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I think you might be surprised what efforts people will try to make when their favorite island is at stake.
But how long will it last? Maybe people will put in extra effort for a while, but barring a simultaneous influx of new players, I can't see it lasting. It's a lot of effort to keep up a high level of activity, more and more so as there are fewer and fewer characters to interact with. Eventually people will relax and go back to what's normal for them and we'll be right back where we started.
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You have identified two problems: Getting new players, and keeping existing players. If we did somehow magically get 100% retention, then I can guarantee you that eventually, all our player density problems would be solved. It may take a while, but we would eventually get to where we wanted to be, if no one ever left. :)
That's not even true because equally magical could be a 0 joining rate, which would make 100% retention meaningless. Also people die. Retention should still be divided into new and old player retention. Smiley faces are obnoxious.
These are both problems that we know exist. We have identified the problems, and many people have frequently pointed them out. The question isn't "What are our problems?", it's "How can we fix our problems?"
Is it difficult to read quoted posts? I was replying to a person who specifically asked me what the problems were.
I think you might be surprised what efforts people will try to make when their favorite island is at stake.
I really can't comprehend this type of thinking. It's like saying that people are most productive under gunpoint.
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I really can't comprehend this type of thinking. It's like saying that people are most productive under gunpoint.
No but they do usually put their highest effort into it. And since they aren't going to be shot, I see the stress of possible dying being a lot less thus its not a completely bad idea. Should we just do that and hope it works? No, because it won't work long term even if it does short term somewhat.
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No but they do usually put their highest effort into it. And since they aren't going to be shot, I see the stress of possible dying being a lot less thus its not a completely bad idea. Should we just do that and hope it works? No, because it won't work long term even if it does short term somewhat.
Highest effort != best results.
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Highest effort != best results.
Most productive=best results basically, and I clearly said that the highest effort was not being the most productive ipso facto, I already that highest efforts doesn't equal best results already. You complain about others supposedly not reading your posts, yet that was rather clear so I feel it might be the other way around.
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You said it might not be a completely bad idea, but wouldn't work in the long term. tbh your post is pretty hard to understand
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Mod note: Hotmail slams removed. People use it. Deal with it. If you want to slag off on Hotmail, go to the General Talk board.
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That's not even true because equally magical could be a 0 joining rate, which would make 100% retention meaningless. Also people die. Retention should still be divided into new and old player retention.
So, he's not a true Scotsman, eh? Retconning initial conditions doesn't make your original assumptions any better. It just gets us into an endless loop of "Well, if we have this condition, too..."
Smiley faces are obnoxious.
Deal. We all have to put up with stuff we consider obnoxious.
Is it difficult to read quoted posts? I was replying to a person who specifically asked me what the problems were.
You didn't quote anything. It's pretty silly to try to slam someone for not reading your quoted material, when you don't quote anything.
And I know what you were replying to. I was acknowledging the fact that the problems you listed are known to the dev team. And that the four problems you identified are really only two problems: Finding new players, and retaining players.
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So, yeah, concerning my Hotmail suggestion, is there a reason for the barring of hotmail users or is it just because Tom dislikes hotmail?
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There are historical reasons for it, but I already have some changes prepared to the account signup process (they just need final testing before going live) that include removing that restriction.
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Instead of letting people discuss like before, why not only allow people to post news or information?
Disallow people from commenting on each other's posts. That way we may avoid people bickering over senseless stuff again.
yes, that would work exactly as newspapers on wiki worked before, while there could possibly be easier to manage and edit such newspapers in forums format.
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yes, that would work exactly as newspapers on wiki worked before, while there could possibly be easier to manage and edit such newspapers in forums format.
Forum format is no better than wiki format, which is the current "gold standard" as far as newspaper formatting. Tom doesn't want a "blog" where the newspaper is just a scrolling list of articles; he wants a "front page" view like a real newspaper.
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Forum format is no better than wiki format, which is the current "gold standard" as far as newspaper formatting. Tom doesn't want a "blog" where the newspaper is just a scrolling list of articles; he wants a "front page" view like a real newspaper.
...Which is not something BM newspapers have generally had.
As has been said previously, the major problem with making a BM newspaper like that right now is that it needs a lot of articles to put out a discrete "edition." Given that, and that most BM newspapers in the past were, in fact, pretty much in blog format, I don't see any sense to the idea that a BM Wiki newspaper needs a proper broadsheet layout.
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You said it might not be a completely bad idea, but wouldn't work in the long term. tbh your post is pretty hard to understand
Its precisely that. While it might help with people making the game better for a little while, eventually they will go back to normal and it doesn't solve anything long term.
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Its precisely that. While it might help with people making the game better for a little while, eventually they will go back to normal and it doesn't solve anything long term.
Relaxing the character limits strikes the right balance between heavy-handed and soft-touch approaches. Some people have already given reasons why this is not a perfect fix, the main argument being: more characters per player will = less playing time per character. To that I say, I'd rather be in a realm with 30 characters, of whom 10 are really engaged, than in a realm with 10 characters who are all bored. The argument also pre-supposes that every player is playing at maximum capacity, which we know is not true. There is no permanent silver bullet long-term fix, so we should stop using that as a baseline criteria and start looking at some short-term remedies. It's a dynamic game with many moving parts, and it's to be expected that character levels will ebb and flow over time. If, in 6 months from now, we have the problem of too many characters, then we can always tweak the rules again. I posted a few suggestions earlier and I'm re-posting them now:
- Rather than increasing +1 every 12 months, every 9 or 10 months instead.
- Offer a +1 to certain players on the condition that their character will be in a fledgling realm or island.
- Give out more medals
- Give a fam/honour/prestige boost to players who go to fledgling, or less desirable realms or islands.
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I was lucky when playing and got several medals within a month of playing for a couple of RP's I had written. I feel that the ones that handed the medals out to me were aware of the lack in medal-giving and actively gave out medals (since this issue had been broached on the forums once or twice)? What I think is that people with medals to give should be reminded they can give out medals, as maybe older players sometimes forget? I don't know since, as I said, I haven't played that long and maybe this isn't the issue.
I wouldn't know how such a notification system would be implemented, or if it is even necessary. Older-player feedback would be necessary on this.
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I was lucky when playing and got several medals within a month of playing for a couple of RP's I had written. I feel that the ones that handed the medals out to me were aware of the lack in medal-giving and actively gave out medals (since this issue had been broached on the forums once or twice)? What I think is that people with medals to give should be reminded they can give out medals, as maybe older players sometimes forget? I don't know since, as I said, I haven't played that long and maybe this isn't the issue.
I wouldn't know how such a notification system would be implemented, or if it is even necessary. Older-player feedback would be necessary on this.
I think you are correct, based on what I've read in the discussions on the topic.
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You need five our more medals to get an extra character right? What happens if you give those away, do you lose the character slot?
Our am I thinking of fame?
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The number of medals you have can never decrease.
The medals you give do not come from the medals you have; they come from a separate, invisible pool.
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As a new player that joined BM 4 months ago, my answer to the density problem is to deal more with new player retention, and Dev team should put more weight on attracting new players.
It is at least equally important as old player retention. While on this forum I guess most of you are long time players, please don't underestimate how important it is about new player retention.
Let's face it: the game is boring for most of new players. There aren't a lot of people talking every day. There aren't many options left for newbies. The dev team should spend more time thinking for new players.
Eventually after I got promoted, I said "wow": there are so many things a marshal can do, and there are so many things a region lord can do! But most new players will drop before they even know those features.. Why does a new player stay for several months, just following all the orders without quitting? He has little to say regarding the strategy side of the game, because he has no/little in-game channel to get involved in all the discussions. I just realized there is a "Local" forum when I started to have a look at this forum 2 days ago!
1) why can't a new player try different classes from day 1? I understand some requires high prestige, but can we just assume new players are from noble families that can meet these requirements?
2) why some information is hide from new characters? For example, dose market price of food in a region need to be hide from new characters? Can we show those "advanced" buttons even if newbies can't use them?
3) more aggressively, why a knight can't have any option regarding to his estate? If a province is owned by a baron, for example, maybe a town is assigned to a knight. Adding more features to new players can open up a lot of fun for the newbies.
4) what's the fun about following orders and is there anything else to do other than line settings?
If there is no discussion you can join because of either lack of knowledge/experience or lack of authority, basically all you can do is to follow orders. Is there any possibility that BM can give more things that a troop leader can do besides following orders? (I know this is a strategic game, not a slash/loot rpg. But please..)
5) What's the char limit on adventurers for? New players spend significant portion of their time on the adventurers part
Adventurers are playing RPG games. They will not break any balance. Lifting this limit will only give players that have more time chances to enjoy more of the game. People may think that adventurer part is just an add-on, but to a new player that can't do any decision-making but follow orders, an adventurer is free from those orders and can enjoy a lot of fun. There are so many popular trading card games out there that have little player interaction, but attract huge player base! Just introduce some fun features to the adventurer part, and potentially the density problem may be solved as a by-product! I believe BM has more potential than people think. The overall goal is to make this game more fun with more players, and is not just to limit it as a "pure-strategic" game.
The above discussion about new players may seem a little bit off from the current topic (local forum, and reduce # of islands). But I take the opinion that short term solutions cannot solve long term problems. Only by adding more fun features can BM solve the density and retention problem in the long run.
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1) Its about the character, not the player or family. When I make a new character I have all the same restrictions as a character who was made by a new player.
2)I don't know what you are talking about, so please explain a little more on that.
3)There have been suggestions like that that I think were accepted but there is a list a mile long of to-do's and I don't think that is that high up the list.
4)Interacting with other nobles although its an issue with less players, as a new player likely won't start the interactions, they likely often need someone else to start interacting with them and they interact back, hopefully. Otherwise, I completely agree, the game needs more to do on the knight level, suggestions are welcome as I brought up the issue before and they didn't know what you would add and neither did I.
5)While there should be a limit still, perhaps increasing the amount of advies you can have by simply saying you can also have 2 for instance advies in addition to the limit of nobles active you can have. They are a grind that is good yet bad at the sametime for new players. Good because its gets them something to do, but they need to have a noble because thats where the social interaction and the core of the game is. (The core of the game being nobles/social interaction is with the nobles is the bad part of new players playing advies.)
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stuff
Do away with all the paranoid limits and restrictions!
I approve of this post.
And while we're on the subject of doing away with silly restrictions... how about removing all those damn hard caps in the "new" tax system? (Yes yes, I know. I just couldn't help myself... :) )
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Do away with all the paranoid limits and restrictions!
I approve of this post.
And while we're on the subject of doing away with silly restrictions... how about removing all those damn hard caps in the "new" tax system? (Yes yes, I know. I just couldn't help myself... :) )
Agreed, I have never really gotten why we have a character limit in the first place when we already have a limit on how many characters one person can have on a continent. The "they'll just be drones" argument just doesn't fly in the face of the fact that we just don't have enough characters in general to do anything besides being drones.
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As a new player that joined BM 4 months ago, my answer to the density problem is to deal more with new player retention, and Dev team should put more weight on attracting new players.
I am curious as to how you heard about BM?
We do spend quite a bit of time thinking about ways to get new players, but our resources are limited, we need community support to drive these initiatives.
cheers,
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I am curious as to how you heard about BM?
We do spend quite a bit of time thinking about ways to get new players, but our resources are limited, we need community support to drive these initiatives.
cheers,
I heard about BM by word of mouth. Why not give incentives to people who bring in more players? e.g. increase their character limit, give them a medal, give them a fame point, etc.
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Not a bad idea. But it does open up the incentive to multi-account.
Not saying that's a reason to drop the idea. Just something to keep in mind.
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Agreed, I have never really gotten why we have a character limit in the first place when we already have a limit on how many characters one person can have on a continent. The "they'll just be drones" argument just doesn't fly in the face of the fact that we just don't have enough characters in general to do anything besides being drones.
Agreed. I'd rather be in a realm with 20 drones and 10 people who are really engaged, than in a realm with only 10 people who are bored.
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Thanks for making that posting, bofeng. I think it's one of the most interesting and valuable ones I've read on the issue of new player retention. Your following opinion is one that I share, and have brought up a few times myself:
Let's face it: the game is boring for most of new players. There aren't a lot of people talking every day. There aren't many options left for newbies. The dev team should spend more time thinking for new players.
Eventually after I got promoted, I said "wow": there are so many things a marshal can do, and there are so many things a region lord can do! But most new players will drop before they even know those features.. Why does a new player stay for several months, just following all the orders without quitting?
There's no escaping the fact that the entry level gameplay experience of a new rank-and-file knight player is boring. It's arguable that BM only really becomes interesting to play once you get control of a region, are put into a Marshal/Vice-Marshal position (for those interested in the strategy side of things), or are lucky enough to leapfrog into a government position. The lack of decent and engaging gameplay at the new player level is something that only the already overworked volunteer Devs can significantly improve (various ideas have been floated and approved such as more options for knightly estates, newbie quests, and such).
However, existing players can maybe do something to improve new player retention in the meantime. I think we need a new thread where we can share, discuss, and try to create strategies to make the game more interesting for new players within the constraints of the existing game mechanics. I'll start said tread later when I have more time, unless someone else wants to do so first. Let's try to join together to find ideas to make things more interesting for new players.
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As a new player that joined BM 4 months ago, my answer to the density problem is to deal more with new player retention, and Dev team should put more weight on attracting new players.
1) why can't a new player try different classes from day 1? I understand some requires high prestige, but can we just assume new players are from noble families that can meet these requirements?
2) why some information is hide from new characters? For example, dose market price of food in a region need to be hide from new characters? Can we show those "advanced" buttons even if newbies can't use them?
4) what's the fun about following orders and is there anything else to do other than line settings?
If there is no discussion you can join because of either lack of knowledge/experience or lack of authority, basically all you can do is to follow orders. Is there any possibility that BM can give more things that a troop leader can do besides following orders? (I know this is a strategic game, not a slash/loot rpg. But please..)
1:
Infiltrator: If we allowed people to start of with "new" infiltrators, we'd have a bunch of wannabe ninjas running around, getting caught and not really doing anything. It takes months of training (and a sponsor to provide you with gold for that training) at the academy before you can make a good infiltrator.
Hero: I think the idea is that you should play your character for a while, and grow attached to them, before you can decide that it's okay for them to die. This is to prevent people from making instant heros and not caring about the character.
Cavalier: Eh, I could see this one being okay at the two-week mark, personally.
Trader: 2 weeks is fair.
Courtier: limit is put in place to protect new players so they don't get stuck on region maintenance duty while the old players go off to war
Priest: I think it's 2 weeks, that's fair.
2: Only people who can trade (traders, region lords, stewards, banker) get to see food information. It's not useful to others. Not sure what else you're talking about.
4: following orders is fun because that's how you win battles, and it's fun to win battles.
And, welcome! Always nice to meet a new player.
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1:
Infiltrator: If we allowed people to start of with "new" infiltrators, we'd have a bunch of wannabe ninjas running around, getting caught and not really doing anything. It takes months of training (and a sponsor to provide you with gold for that training) at the academy before you can make a good infiltrator.
Hero: I think the idea is that you should play your character for a while, and grow attached to them, before you can decide that it's okay for them to die. This is to prevent people from making instant heros and not caring about the character.
Cavalier: Eh, I could see this one being okay at the two-week mark, personally.
Trader: 2 weeks is fair.
Courtier: limit is put in place to protect new players so they don't get stuck on region maintenance duty while the old players go off to war
Priest: I think it's 2 weeks, that's fair.
2: Only people who can trade (traders, region lords, stewards, banker) get to see food information. It's not useful to others. Not sure what else you're talking about.
4: following orders is fun because that's how you win battles, and it's fun to win battles.
And, welcome! Always nice to meet a new player.
Just two comments:
Infiltrator - so? If someone thinks they can do it and fails miserably, let them try. It will provide amusement. Having wannabe infiltrators may also cause conflict, which is always good. I don't see the argument that they will not be a good infiltrator as a reason to prevent them. Grog knows we have had many Kings/lords/judges/etc who have been terrible but that did not prevent them from trying.
Priest - again, so what? It would be plausible that a younger sibling was trained from birth to be a person of the cloth. let them do it from day 1.
cheers,
Scott
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Active characters is already 3 to begin with isn't it? So who cares.
I already made a suggestion ages ago, just raise noble cap to 3, either after 1 week or just immediately. Then people posted and the posts get worse and worse.
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Active characters is already 3 to begin with isn't it? So who cares.
I already made a suggestion ages ago, just raise noble cap to 3, either after 1 week or just immediately. Then people posted and the posts get worse and worse.
The player and character base has declined making the game less engaging. The devs are talking about freezing an island with the expectation that characters will migrate and increase the player density on the remaining islands. What I've suggested and several others too, is to tweak the active character limit rules to make it easier for those players that want to have more active characters to do so. There have also been some suggestions to improve the rate of retention and new player recruitment. Here are some of the ideas that have been put forward:
- Rather than char limit increasing +1 every 12 months, every 9 or 10 months instead.
- Offer a +1 to certain players on the condition that their character will be in a fledgling realm or island.
- Give a fame/honour/prestige boost to players who go to fledgling, or less desirable realms or islands.
- Offer incentives to players that bring in new players, such as increasing their char limit, medals, fame, honour or prestige
- Give new players more to do
- Allow new players to start with 3 nobles
- Allow new players to sign up with Hotmail addresses (for some reason Hotmail is on the sh_t list)
- Encourage existing players to become more engaged
- Do away with all the paranoid limits and restrictions
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Medals discussion moved here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5052.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5052.0.html)
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Another way to address the low noble count
Our problem is not noble count. Our problem is player count.
I'm done discussing ideas to increase the number of characters per player. We've been over this two dozen times.
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Before freezing an entire island, consider freezing individual realms, regions or duchies.
Over my dead body. There are already more than enough false rumours about the devs favouring certain realms or what-do-I-know bull!@#$. Freezing individual realms while leaving others on the same island unfrozen would make all the conspiracy theorists come out with "told you so" on their lips.
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I think you might be surprised what efforts people will try to make when their favorite island is at stake.
Which is why the correct order is deciding upon an island first and THEN giving people an opportunity to save it by finding enough new players. As long as the threat is abstract, not much will happen.
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One bright spark—truly, the jewel of humanity—even cares so much about the rights of Hotmail users that when he found that he was unable to sign up for BM with his Hotmail address, he signed up under a throwaway email and set up a crude denial of service attack against the game by causing an endless loop of Titan reports, which said, among other things, that our discrimination against Hotmail was "evil" and "racist."
And then he wondered (on IRC) why he was being IP-banned from the game.
And that is precisely why I won't allow hotmail. It's full of retards like that. There's a reason it was blocked once, you know? It's not like it has always been blocked, right from the go.
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And I half the people I try to sign up on here are perfectly logical, sane beings, and have hotmail. When they find out it is blocked, half of them decide it just isn't worth it.
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It might be worthwhile to at least trial allowing hotmails. You can get outlooks now though.
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I have a Hotmail account... I like to use Skype and long ago I had to create another mail just to play BM... I cannot remember the password... it's a Yahoo mail that I never used and I still have just to log in in BM. I don't know why so much hate, since I use Hotmail as I use any other service on internet.
Just don't put everyone in the same basket.
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And that is precisely why I won't allow hotmail. It's full of retards like that. There's a reason it was blocked once, you know? It's not like it has always been blocked, right from the go.
Judging all by a few is a poor way to do things. What email they have shouldn't matter, but it does hurt BM blocking them. I am generally not going to make a new e-mail just for some website I have never used, I don't care how great my friend said it was.
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And that is precisely why I won't allow hotmail. It's full of retards like that. There's a reason it was blocked once, you know? It's not like it has always been blocked, right from the go.
Eh, as others said, it probably hurts us more than it helps. I mean, we're talking about doing drastic things like shutting down islands just to increase player density, so we're not exactly in a position to be picky about who we let sign up for the game, are we? At this point I can only imagine that it hurts more than it helps.
If you can see it in your heart to allow confessed multi-cheaters to return to the game after you've gone to the purportedly extensive trouble of catching them I'm sure you can give Hotmail users a chance. Even if they are using a benighted and horrible email service that belongs in some sort of forbidden land of justifiably forgotten technology.
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Judging all by a few is a poor way to do things. What email they have shouldn't matter, but it does hurt BM blocking them. I am generally not going to make a new e-mail just for some website I have never used, I don't care how great my friend said it was.
What if they have a @compuserve.net address?
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Judging all by a few is a poor way to do things.
Why does nobody believe us when we say we have our reasons? This block is a decade old, you may be able to convince me that times have changed and a re-evaluation would be in order, but doubting that back when it was put in there was a long list of very, very good reasons for doing so is just insulting, uninformed and bad form. Also, strategically unwise.
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And I half the people I try to sign up on here are perfectly logical, sane beings, and have hotmail. When they find out it is blocked, half of them decide it just isn't worth it.
This.
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Also, strategically unwise.
I wish people wouldn't have to strategically think about the posts they make with good intentions to improve the game. The Forum is not a game. This is exactly the kind of sentiment that gets people to focus more on the forums when it should be a convivial place.
This being said, I am certain there were good reasons to block hotmail, if only to avoid spam. There's nothing easier then to get a gmail address. I have five, including one exclusively for BM.
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And that is precisely why I won't allow hotmail. It's full of retards like that. There's a reason it was blocked once, you know? It's not like it has always been blocked, right from the go.
Up until a few years ago, the vast majority of people I know had a Hotmail address as their primary (or only) email account. Teachers, publishers, university lecturers, research scientists.... not an idiot among 'em. At the time, I used an @activemail address (now defunct), and they gave me strange looks and asked why I didn't use Hotmail. I imagine very few people would bother to create a new email account just to play a game (mind you, I did!). I've always presumed Hotmail being the subject of internet jokes and ridicule is mainly because it's linked to Microsoft, and internet afficionardos hate all spawn of Bill Gates.
Blocking Hotmail (and also Outlook, I presume? Because it's essentially the same thing) probably does cost BM a substantial amount of casual players - total conjecture, of course, unless the system measures how many people try to sign up using Hotmail. I went into the bank a few weeks ago and the cashiers behind the counter asked for an email address and I said, "Just let me think which email I want linked to it." And their response was, "You have more than one email?" Which, in a completely subjective way, shows that there are people who won't even consider using more than one email address if technology doesn't play a major role in their day-to-day life.
However, I think it was once said somewhere on here that Hotmail addresses were blocked because they are (were?) the email of choice for hackers. If that's still true and allowing Hotmail addresses would increase attacks against the game, and cause Devs to spend more time sorting out the problems, I can see why the block is in place. I've seen a small handful of other indie web games that disallow Hotmail accounts, so I suppose they must also have had trouble at some point in their existence and don't have the time or resources to deal with the problem.
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I've always presumed Hotmail being the subject of internet jokes and ridicule is mainly because it's linked to Microsoft, and internet afficionardos hate all spawn of Bill Gates.
[...]
I've seen a small handful of other indie web games that disallow Hotmail accounts, so I suppose they must also have had trouble at some point in their existence and don't have the time or resources to deal with the problem.
Back when I decided to block it, hotmail was a MAJOR pain in the ass. They didn't respect the mail protocols fully, leading to backscatter and random errors, which resulted in clogging my outgoing pipes with bounces and failed delivery messages AND they didn't even have a technical contact one could reach AND they ignored everyone else on the Internet.
Yes, MS is a major factor, but not because of the name, but because of the attitude. This "!@#$ everyone else, we don't give a !@#$" approach of pissing into the swimming pool.
That, and the fact that at that time, a large fraction of the trolls and cheaters we banned were hotmail users. Maybe just because it was popular, but even accounting for that, it was unreasonably large. Blocking hotmail dramatically improved the quality of the new players we got.
As I said: That was then and now is now. Things may have changed, but I don't do stuff like that just because I don't like MS. Heck, if I did, don't you think I would've blocked @microsoft.com e-mails first?
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Heh, I remember the multi's from those day. The things Tom did was to protect his game so the points your making about hotmail are good points but you need to see it from his pov more.
Besides, I thought hotmail merge into another mail and ceased to exist from the days long ago?
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I should note that, though I haven't asked Tom about it yet (which is part of why it's not live yet...), I have been reworking the new account signup process, and as part of that, I have removed the restriction on Hotmail addresses.
Tom, I think it would be worthwhile to remove this restriction at least on a trial basis. You know I'm right there with you on what Hotmail was like, but I've seen some circumstantial evidence that it's improved in the decade since then, and if it's not being an active pain in the ass now, I don't see any reason to cut ourselves off from a relatively significant chunk of Internet users, even if their choice in email provider is a little questionable ;D
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Hotmail is now Outlook.com. Microsoft keeps rebranding their stuff.
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Hotmail is now Outlook.com. Microsoft keeps rebranding their stuff.
True, but if you have a hotmail address, you will still sign in with that. Or with @msn.com, or @live.com, or @outlook.com. Tom's not blocking the website, he's blocking the email address.
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Tom, I think it would be worthwhile to remove this restriction at least on a trial basis.
Ok.
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So have we decided on the Locals forum?
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So have we decided on the Locals forum?
No, because every constructive discussion always gets hijacked by some pet issue. If you didn't share my opinion on forums before, maybe you do now. ;-)
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No, because every constructive discussion always gets hijacked by some pet issue. If you didn't share my opinion on forums before, maybe you do now. ;-)
I think we're now waiting for the Mods to develop and publish their new set of rules, which are purportedly similar to the ones I wrote up. Once those are established, I was thinking that the Locals could make a come back on a trial basis to see how the new rules and improved moderation work out.
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No, because every constructive discussion always gets hijacked by some pet issue. If you didn't share my opinion on forums before, maybe you do now. ;-)
My not really so humble opinion on locals:
open them up, smash the a$$holes and ban their characters. 3 strikes and you're mush.
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My not really so humble opinion on locals:
open them up, smash the a$$holes and ban their characters. 3 strikes and you're mush.
And we loose more players. Even "a$$holes" on the forum may be playing good constructive characters.
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My not really so humble opinion on locals:
open them up, smash the a$$holes and ban their characters. 3 strikes and you're mush.
There is no good reason to do anything to their characters. If Tom thinks its so clear certain players are just complete !@#$%^&s on the forums, he can ban them from the forum, but there is no reason to ban them from the game because of the forums.
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No, because every constructive discussion always gets hijacked by some pet issue. If you didn't share my opinion on forums before, maybe you do now. ;-)
I am ready to wad the forum up and trash it... It always seems as if a couple of people with way too much time force opinions on others in a forum war... not commenting/ignoring on some to kill discussion or picking apart posts because it gives them a feeling of power and involvement.
The less time people spend in here the more they can spend in the game. Get board in game, then figure out wish list/bug fix/invite friends to play...
Damn but the old days were better...even with in game messaging flame wars.
Only reason I can think to keep it open is for communication of newbs for help... but then again we have the wiki which is a much more pleasant place.
This place is a heap of hubris and tripe.
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Why do you read it at all if that's how you feel about it?
That's one part of this that always got me; if people can't stand the forums, why don't they just stay away? No one has to come here, any more than they have to play the game. If I stopped enjoying Battlemaster, I wouldn't play anymore. Likewise, if I couldn't stand the forum, I wouldn't bother with it.
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That's one part of this that always got me; if people can't stand the forums, why don't they just stay away?
Because of the impression that if you don't read the forums, you are missing something important for your in-game play. See any of the other 10 topics on this, this has all been discussed extensively.
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Where does one get the impression they must read the forums? In my 3 our so years playing in very active realms I have seen an in game reference to the forums perhaps one or two times. Its so rare in my experience if I didn't see the link to the forums on the family page I wouldn't know they are there.
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Where does one get the impression they must read the forums? In my 3 our so years playing in very active realms I have seen an in game reference to the forums perhaps one or two times. Its so rare in my experience if I didn't see the link to the forums on the family page I wouldn't know they are there.
I'm right there with you, but according to Tom, some unknown number of unnamed people, of whom he apparently has evidence which he will not show, believe this about the forum for reasons which are unspecified and unclear.
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Because of the impression that if you don't read the forums, you are missing something important for your in-game play. See any of the other 10 topics on this, this has all been discussed extensively.
I recall you mentioning it more than once. The problem is, as Anaris alluded to, I don't recall anyone else doing so.
If, as you have also repeatedly pointed out, only a minority of the player base actually uses the forum, then clearly this feeling is neither universal nor accurate. I know plenty of famous, successful families who have no forum presence at all that I am aware of. I know many more who do have forum accounts but very rarely post (though I can't say how often they read).
It just irks me to see people come to the forum and complain about how miserable it is, and then just keep coming back. Seriously, the forum is completely optional. Don't like it? Delete your forum account and just play the game. Or put all the boards you don't like on Ignore. If I didn't like the forum, I wouldn't read it, just like if I didn't like the game, I wouldn't play it.
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I thought we were passed this discussion and simply you guys were creating the new ruleset for the locals?
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Where does one get the impression they must read the forums? In my 3 our so years playing in very active realms I have seen an in game reference to the forums perhaps one or two times. Its so rare in my experience if I didn't see the link to the forums on the family page I wouldn't know they are there.
I agree with this. I've never had the impression that the forums were important to the game.
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The forum is only important to the game insofar as it has taken over the wiki's role. Need information about the 5th invasion? Check the Fifth invasion thread. Need information about this or that war/realm/religion? The locals are there for you! Or not..
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I still go to the wiki for region or realm information. Even though I come to the forum from time to time, I have no interest in the local boards, and I never feel that I need to.
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I recall you mentioning it more than once. The problem is, as Anaris alluded to, I don't recall anyone else doing so.
If, as you have also repeatedly pointed out, only a minority of the player base actually uses the forum, then clearly this feeling is neither universal nor accurate. I know plenty of famous, successful families who have no forum presence at all that I am aware of. I know many more who do have forum accounts but very rarely post (though I can't say how often they read).
It just irks me to see people come to the forum and complain about how miserable it is, and then just keep coming back. Seriously, the forum is completely optional. Don't like it? Delete your forum account and just play the game. Or put all the boards you don't like on Ignore. If I didn't like the forum, I wouldn't read it, just like if I didn't like the game, I wouldn't play it.
There was one case of someone else saying they felt the forums was ruining the game because of the game play done on it, although when asked for an example he said basically all of the locals board, while saying that if you didn't see it, its because you aren't attempting to see it, and refused to give any explanation beyond that.
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I recall you mentioning it more than once. The problem is, as Anaris alluded to, I don't recall anyone else doing so.
Several people have said as much right here in these discussions, and one even opened a topic in it.
Neither of us knows if these are a small number of players or many, but at least some exist.
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Several people have said as much right here in these discussions, and one even opened a topic in it.
Several? I recall one, but I may be misremembering.
And the one who opened a topic is a person who has a history of making totally unfounded complaints about the game, is never satisfied, is someone who you have personally complained about this trait in, and when asked to provide any evidence of what he was complaining about in this case, simply said (paraphrasing), "It's obvious to anyone with eyes to see. If you can't see it already, it's because you're not looking or too stupid to see it."
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simply said (paraphrasing), "It's obvious to anyone with eyes to see. If you can't see it already, it's because you're not looking or too stupid to see it."
He is insulting, but not necessarily wrong because of that. I see it as well. And at least a few other people also. Seriously, this whole discussion started because one guy QUIT over this issue.
Please stop being in denial. We can agree that we don't know if this is a minority or a majority opinion, and we'll probably never know. But as several people pointed out by now: Expecting many voices critical of the forum ON THE FORUM is not exactly a reasonable expectation. It's a bit like going to a football game looking for people who don't like football.
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He is insulting, but not necessarily wrong because of that. I see it as well. And at least a few other people also. Seriously, this whole discussion started because one guy QUIT over this issue.
Please stop being in denial. We can agree that we don't know if this is a minority or a majority opinion, and we'll probably never know. But as several people pointed out by now: Expecting many voices critical of the forum ON THE FORUM is not exactly a reasonable expectation. It's a bit like going to a football game looking for people who don't like football.
Then post that the discussion is going on on the game. You are complaining about not getting the audience you want, but not taking any action to fix that even though it isn't that hard to just post on the newsticker that a discussion about whether the forums is good or bad is being done or something like that. Those that really don't like the forums will be informed and can then fight against the forums if they so choose.
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Then post that the discussion is going on on the game. You are complaining about not getting the audience you want, but not taking any action to fix that even though it isn't that hard to just post on the newsticker that a discussion about whether the forums is good or bad is being done or something like that. Those that really don't like the forums will be informed and can then fight against the forums if they so choose.
You're trying to tell me that the solution is to invite those who don't like football to come to the game. That's not going to work. People who reject the forum won't be coming to the forum to discuss that.
I'm aware of that, and I'm not complaining. I'm trying to tell people here that yes, everyone here is pretty much in favour of the forums. Big surprise when you're in the middle of what is essentially the biggest selection bias ever.
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People who reject the forum won't be coming to the forum to discuss that.
can then fight against the forums if they so choose.
They're not being invited to discuss about it. They're being invited to fight for it. And that's much, much worse.
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They're not being invited to discuss about it. They're being invited to fight for it. And that's much, much worse.
Ok, now we're just picking apart the wording of his post...
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He is insulting, but not necessarily wrong because of that. I see it as well. And at least a few other people also. Seriously, this whole discussion started because one guy QUIT over this issue.
Please stop being in denial. We can agree that we don't know if this is a minority or a majority opinion, and we'll probably never know. But as several people pointed out by now: Expecting many voices critical of the forum ON THE FORUM is not exactly a reasonable expectation. It's a bit like going to a football game looking for people who don't like football.
One guy made the choice to read the forums until the point that they quit. At any point they could have simply ignored the forums.
Now, I agree with your second point, but because one person quit after they went out of their way to read the forums is no reason to kill the locals. I know of people who quit after becoming Ruler, so shall we get rid of the Ruler position?
So, your motivation is good, and I agree that the forums should be a good atmosphere. I am happy with erring on the side of caution. Ban forum members who are rude and insulting. Getting rid of locals because someone went out of their way to read the forums, and then get insulted enough to quit, is wrong. If you do not like the forum, do not read them.
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Wow, I certainly have been far from an active member (on the forums, and RP in game for awhile now), but in my naive mind, I hadn't thought I'd ever see this come to pass. The potential closing of a continent rather than the creation of a new one?
I have played Battlemaster since 2002-03 when a friend of mine in high school pulled me in to help out his realm, Callaway, on Atamara. This was my first taste of Battlemaster and I remember playing it countless times during Keyboarding class, Study Hall, visits to the Library, etc. This game has been a huge part of me for a long time, even if I have made (and deleted) two accounts over the years before this one, all for different reasons, but that is getting off topic...
The point is, I was far more active in the past. Life has caught up with me and thrown so many more distractions at me that even putting in my 10 - 15 minutes a day (for basic gameplay) can sometimes be very difficult to accomplish. It's not that I don't want to, it's just that other things keep getting in the way. There is not enough time for any or all of my other hobbies, but again, I am getting off topic and probably just repeating exactly what many other people have to say about their own conflicts with life and BattleMaster.
I want to apologize for not being active on the forums and only adequately active in the game. I want to apologize for not giving this game the attention it deserves and not getting as invested in any of the realms or continents that I currently play in. I want to apologize to all of the players over the years who had crossed paths with my short temper, resulting in the deletion of my old accounts. I want to apologize to everyone who was thrilled to see the original design of Dwilight and had such high hopes of progress for the game when the island was first released (I did the first rough draft of Dwilight in my spare time, the community touched it up, added the region names and borders, etc. It was a very special time indeed). I want to apologize to Tom for my former dedication to help come up with new ways to make better, more modern maps and ultimately failing to deliver. I want to apologize for not fulfilling my role as a tester in my latest return to BattleMaster. As a player and a fan, I have failed BattleMaster. For that, I apologize.
With the pity party out of the way, I definitely want to get down and dirty with the rest of you about discussing possible ways to save BattleMaster and perhaps see it grow further in the future. I will start with this "welcome" message, to let you all know that I want to be a serious part of it once again, despite my spotty and less than reliable record and history. I will then follow up by reading every page of this thread thus far and offering a much more insightful post. I am probably far from the best person to be involved in an effort to brainstorm on what to do about saving a beloved game in a situation such as this (all of my friends I've tried to get involved, for example, either stopped playing or are barely active enough to follow military orders, I am literally the only one left of my actual friends, which is sad...), but you can bet that I will make an honest effort this time, or at least go out in a blaze of glory trying.
My apologies for a somewhat depressing, non-constructive post, but I did want to make an entrance that at least might catch some attention in the process. At the very least, you guys can feel some solace in knowing that you have another (enthusiastic) member to your efforts.
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Darfix? Holy crap! Talk about a blast from the past.... Welcome back! I totally didn't realize that was you....
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Making your realm interesting can be as simple as a few letters going up and down the chain of command, beyond the usual orders and reports. Right now in many places BM is just a strategy game, and there is almost zero roleplaying going on (and by roleplaying I don't just mean narrative RPs, I mean nobles interacting among eachother). To me, the reason I've been playing BM for over 8 years now is that it was an entirely unique game, but it's lost a lot of its flair recently. But I don't think that the problem will be (or even can be) solved by adding or removing mechanics. I get the feeling that a lot of players are expecting Tom and the dev team to come up with solutions, but to say it with a huge cliché: true change starts with one's self.
The community is what makes BM unique, so the community bears a responsibility to keep it that way. If enough of us put in a little bit of extra effort, I think it will create a snowball effect, involving more and more people until the game is back to the level of activity it had years ago. And it really can be as simple as just sending a few letters here and there.
I certainly can agree with the idea that involving the rest of the realm in much of the 'higher up' discussion is a good way to attempt to gather more interest from the entire realm. I have been doing this with both of my ruler characters lately, but unfortunately, it only seems to be having a minor effect at best.
It is nice to (even in monarchy/theocratic/tyranny type regimes) include the entire realm in discussion of foreign policy, possible treaties and the like, and I have certainly been doing my best to do this - but as I said, only a handful of people are actually 'taking the bait' so to speak and offering input and discussion. It does make me quite sad.
Another way to address the low noble count is to re-think the character limits rules. That doesn't mean abolishing character limits, but perhaps the rules can be tweaked. For example:
- Rather than increasing +1 every 12 months, every 9 or 10 months instead.
- Offer a +1 to certain players on the condition that their character will be in a fledgling realm or island.
- Give out more medals
- Give a fam/honour/prestige boost to players who go to fledgling, or less desirable realms or islands.
These are just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure the BattleMaster Brain-Trust, i.e. the collective genius of all of us, could come up with more and better innovations.
Though I have always been in favor of increasing the character limit (or increasing the rate at which new character slots can be obtained), I have always respected the reasons for leaving them as they are. In this case, I have seen the argument being made that it is more a matter of increasing the player count, not the character limit.
As much as I would love to be playing fifteen characters, I do find it tricky to keep up with my five I currently have. I definitely agree with you, but I do think it'd only have a marginal effect at best, unfortunately. I also am aware that this has been replied to with very similar feedback to my own.
Tom, please please please let new players have three starting nobles, not two.
I too think that this would be a decent idea, though I think the time it would take for an all new player to get the hang of the game and start capitalizing on the additional slot might mean we won't see the fruit of such a change until some time well into the future.
Easy way to increase n° of new players joining:
-Allow @hotmail people to create accounts. Most people aren't going to bother making a new email adress just to see how a game is if they only have a hotmail email adress. I know some cases of this.
I for one can state that this was an issue for me in the past (though I still made an account on a secondary email address). Obviously I cannot speak for everyone else who has/had a Hotmail account but it is no longer an issue for me now and wasn't enough of an issue to keep me from playing before.
With that being said, some people would find this kind of a hurdle to be not worth the extra effort. With that being said, someone who is so easily turned off by an obstacle this small probably wouldn't be much of a useful player to the overall survival of BattleMaster as a whole. Even someone like me who has left and come back two times now, I don't feel like I am really doing even a fraction of my part toward amplifying the game's survivability. I am sure for every player who leaves and comes back there are hundreds who leave and never come back, sadly...
Do away with all the paranoid limits and restrictions
Though I normally would approve of this in the interest of improving retention and interest, I do know from personal experience that lightening restrictions can lead to very interesting game play in the short (and long run), rebellions, factions forming, and that sort of thing, though for a player who has been 'at the top' for a long time in a particular realm, he or she might find it extremely frustrating and difficult to get back into the swing of things if he/she has to rebuild everything from the ground up after being dethroned.
I personally like the idea of fighting exciting, internal conflicts and have been on both ends of them in the past. However, it can be frustrating if something you've worked for for many years suddenly came to an end in a very interesting struggle. With that being said, at least we're not talking about Eve where we can not only lose years of hard work, but also $7000+ worth of in game merchandise as well :)
Our problem is not noble count. Our problem is player count.
I'm done discussing ideas to increase the number of characters per player. We've been over this two dozen times.
Very true, though I do think the character count increase could help in a small way, the ultimate issue here is the player count which has been said repeatedly.
Which is why the correct order is deciding upon an island first and THEN giving people an opportunity to save it by finding enough new players. As long as the threat is abstract, not much will happen.
You know, this actually gave me an interesting idea. Beluaterra has long been the island that has to deal with supernatural disasters and fight to survive. Lack of Role Playing and in some cases "conflict" has been stated to be a large issue for the lack of player retention.
Why can we not have a Game Wide catastrophe of some sort? A game wide fight for survival? I am not talking about linking all of the continents together programmatically or anything along those lines, but a huge humanity-wide fight for survival that will ultimately lead to one island's total destruction?
The colonies would find themselves at a slight disadvantage due to the one turn per day limit (and as much as I am not a fan of the colonies, its temporary removal from the game would not bring too many players back to the other continents due to its already low player base and the fact that many of them there are there BECAUSE of the one turn rule), but what I envision is a massive "World vs World" type of scenario where all islands are fighting some sort of united force (united Role Playing wise, not programmatically) and the island to lose all of its regions first to this new threat is the island that gets "frozen" (occupied) by this new force?
The reason I like this idea is that it sort of goes hand in hand with a long term idea I have as well, but I'll hold off on that for the moment...Darfix? Holy crap! Talk about a blast from the past.... Welcome back! I totally didn't realize that was you....
I've been around for awhile - I just have been hesitant to reveal exactly who I am for various reasons. I stepped on plenty of toes on my previous account and I am not sure that 'all is forgiven'. I've grown up some since then and don't let things bother me like I used to, and seeing that BM's future is on the line has motivated me into 'all bets are off mode', so - here I am once again. I was not expecting such an enthusiastic re-welcome, so I do appreciate it :)
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As much as I would love to be playing fifteen characters, I do find it tricky to keep up with my five I currently have. I definitely agree with you, but I do think it'd only have a marginal effect at best, unfortunately. I also am aware that this has been replied to with very similar feedback to my own.
Just to note, one of the main reasons this is proposed is that new players now start with only two noble slots. Allowing these people to have one extra character may increase their enjoyment of the game in a way that increasing your characters from 5 to 6 probably wouldn't.
Tom's right: see this post for the relevant discussion about this point.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5056.0.html
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One guy made the choice to read the forums until the point that they quit. At any point they could have simply ignored the forums.
You missed the point, again.
This is not just about the forums being a bad place at times. It is about the feelings of the people who refuse, reject, dislike the forum that the forum is essential. These people didn't quite because the forum sucks, they quit because they didn't like the pressure of having to be in a place that they hate. They didn't dislike the game, they disliked that in order to play the game, you have to be on the forum, even if you hate it.
STOP
I know at least ten of you are itching to reply how that is all false and you don't have to be on the forum, etc. etc. - I know that. But the people who quit didn't. And you can't reach them via your arguments because a) we're on the forum here, they won't read it and b) it's a feeling, not a rational point.
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Just to note, one of the main reasons this is proposed is that new players now start with only two noble slots. Allowing these people to have one extra character may increase their enjoyment of the game in a way that increasing your characters from 5 to 6 probably wouldn't.
Stop !@#$ing derailing topics. This point has its own topic already.
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You missed the point, again.
This is not just about the forums being a bad place at times. It is about the feelings of the people who refuse, reject, dislike the forum that the forum is essential. These people didn't quite because the forum sucks, they quit because they didn't like the pressure of having to be in a place that they hate. They didn't dislike the game, they disliked that in order to play the game, you have to be on the forum, even if you hate it.
STOP
I know at least ten of you are itching to reply how that is all false and you don't have to be on the forum, etc. etc. - I know that. But the people who quit didn't. And you can't reach them via your arguments because a) we're on the forum here, they won't read it and b) it's a feeling, not a rational point.
Well it seems to me you are suggesting one of three things:
1. The people who hate the forums are right, which is why after using the forums they have terrible impression of, they continue to hate it.
2.The people who hate the forums are going to see what they want see, which is that the forums are terrible, and thus they will only see bad and blow things entirely out of proportion like discussions about in game events and say that is game play.
3.The people who hate forums have some sort of issue mentally, delusional, stupid, whatever causing them to see the forums as bad.
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Well it seems to me you are suggesting one of three things:
No, I am suggesting that it doesn't matter why or what exactly they think. If you move to a new neighbourhood and everyone there thinks you are a freshly released criminal, you're pretty much doomed, no matter if it is totally made up stories, or true, or somewhat true (say, you were once convicted as a juvenile but never went to prison).
You can't explain it to everyone in person, and many people won't be convinced no matter what you say, they'll just think you are lying.
Much the same with the forum. If people think that not being on the forum gives them a disadvantage in-game, how do you intend to convince them that it ain't so?
Answer: It doesn't matter. What they THINK will influence what they do, both IC and OOC. Truth isn't nearly as important as belief. And I say that as someone who personally deeply feels that truth is a purpose unto itself, one of the few points I disagree with Nietzsche.
And if anyone constructs my example above as meaning I think forum goers are criminals, I swear I'm gonna delete this thread of intentional misinterpretations.
Moderator note: edited for language.
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Swearing and anger has started again. Sigh.
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Much the same with the forum. If people think that not being on the forum gives them a disadvantage in-game, how do you intend to convince them that it ain't so?
Post an announcement like you did for the forum moderator crackdown. Say that reading the forums is NOT mandatory, or even recommended, to play the game.
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Post an announcement like you did for the forum moderator crackdown. Say that reading the forums is NOT mandatory, or even recommended, to play the game.
Or remove the direct link from the game to the forum. As it is, it's right up there at the top of the screen whenever you're playing. Put it somewhere out of the way. Or get rid of it altogether. Then maybe people won't feel like they have to visit it.
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Answer: It doesn't matter. What they THINK will influence what they do, both IC and OOC. Truth isn't nearly as important as belief. And I say that as someone who personally deeply feels that truth is a purpose unto itself, one of the few points I disagree with Nietzsche.
So, what you're saying is, it doesn't matter what we do with the forum, they will still hold this belief.
That, Tom, is the best argument I've heard so far for completely ignoring this view in our decisions on what to do with the forum.
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Or remove the direct link from the game to the forum. As it is, it's right up there at the top of the screen whenever you're playing. Put it somewhere out of the way. Or get rid of it altogether. Then maybe people won't feel like they have to visit it.
I think that's a terrible idea.
As Tom says, nothing we do will change these people's minds about this. They have gotten this erroneous idea into their heads, and whatever we do now, it will not go away.
Removing the link to the forum will only make it more of an exclusive club. It won't convince people who hate forums that it's not necessary; it will prevent or discourage new players from joining it, whether they would like to or not.
It's exactly the same argument that's been used about IRC. Removing the easy access to IRC will in no way reduce the activity of the people already on IRC. It will not reduce the alleged cliquishness, or prevent people from discussing in-game events on IRC. All it will do is make it harder for new players to join in on these activities.
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So, what you're saying is, it doesn't matter what we do with the forum, they will still hold this belief.
No, I'm not saying that.
I am saying that no matter what you WRITE on the forum, it won't change their minds, mostly because they'll never read it.
But if we rework the forum, make a few clear rules about IC/OOC separation, etc. - those are simple messages that we can transport.
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I just want to point out... that the majority of people who argue so strongly for doing nothing are those who have titles or whatnot on your user name.
Those titles are also something that gives you a sense of power or authority over anyone else on the forums. When I read your posts...they sound as if you know everything...most times very critical of what you are commenting on. It seems the more titles you have under your name, the less you are willing to accept being wrong.
The forums have become a place to be told you are wrong or stupid...your idea sucks or has been said before. It creates an atmosphere of oppression.
Go back and read this thread we are on here... every time you pick apart a post you sound like lawyers... that is not fun and the game and all associated with it is supposed to be fun. You are dealing with human beings... not numbers and equations. The game is a social project so feelings and grand philosophical ideas are what sends it above and beyond a text based RP game.
Because of that you can not analyze your way through all the problems the way you could other games. You must look into the hearts and minds of the players.
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I think 90% of my posts just get ignored.
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I think 90% of my posts just get ignored.
At least you're trying.
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I think 90% of my posts just get ignored.
At least you're trying.
Not sure if that was intentional or not. But LOL. ;D
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Well, I still thought the idea of having a game wide 'super' invasion that plagues all islands (and the first island to be subdued by the threat is the island that gets 'frozen'/occupied by this enemy force, was an excellent idea. I suppose I was wrong though since no one commented on it :)
I am sure the Dev team has an RP reason cooked up for one island semi-suddenly being taken off the roster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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I am sure the Dev team has an RP reason cooked up for one island semi-suddenly being taken off the roster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Right now, the server move is more important than everything else together, so we focus on that.
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Right now, the server move is more important than everything else together, so we focus on that.
That makes perfect sense. I just wanted to add to the discussion and hopefully come up with a decent idea to help out. BM (and you) have been an on and off part of my life for many years now, so it feels good to at least say I am trying to do my part. I still remember when you requested a photo of my driver's license (and that of my high school friend's) since we frequently used the same IP address to access our accounts :)
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Well, I still thought the idea of having a game wide 'super' invasion that plagues all islands (and the first island to be subdued by the threat is the island that gets 'frozen'/occupied by this enemy force, was an excellent idea. I suppose I was wrong though since no one commented on it :)
I am sure the Dev team has an RP reason cooked up for one island semi-suddenly being taken off the roster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Personally, I love this idea. As Tom said though, the server move has been the single thought for the last couple weeks. It is an extremely complex operation and making sure nothing is missed, and ends up working properly at the end, is very time consuming, even though no one will see the effort (unless it goes badly)
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Well, I still thought the idea of having a game wide 'super' invasion that plagues all islands (and the first island to be subdued by the threat is the island that gets 'frozen'/occupied by this enemy force, was an excellent idea. I suppose I was wrong though since no one commented on it :)
I am sure the Dev team has an RP reason cooked up for one island semi-suddenly being taken off the roster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
If you are talking about using GM led factions, some players might suspect fowl play on the part of the devs if their island was the one to lose. Lame and inconsiderate as it may be. Of course, something completely automated could work (increasing the spawn rates for undead and monsters) could work but lacks the fun story element of the typical invasion.
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If you are talking about using GM led factions, some players might suspect fowl play on the part of the devs if their island was the one to lose. Lame and inconsiderate as it may be. Of course, something completely automated could work (increasing the spawn rates for undead and monsters) could work but lacks the fun story element of the typical invasion.
What do you mean, "their island"?
As far as I know, devs play on every continent.
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What do you mean, "their island"?
"Theirs" refers to "some players". Whatever island is closed, some people on the closed island will feel like it's a conspiracy.
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"Theirs" refers to "some players". Whatever island is closed, some people on the closed island will feel like it's a conspiracy.
...Oh, right. Duh. Reading comprehension fail. Sorry about that :P
I would say "the point still stands" regarding devs being on every island (and thus having no particular horse in the race), but since Unwin's point was about player perception of why an island was sunk (or not), logic and reality are not really that relevant. ;D
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...Oh, right. Duh. Reading comprehension fail. Sorry about that :P
I would say "the point still stands" regarding devs being on every island (and thus having no particular horse in the race), but since Unwin's point was about player perception of why an island was sunk (or not), logic and reality are not really that relevant. ;D
I suppose when the island closing announcement is made, a list of Devs (and possibly magistrates and moderators) who play on that island can be posted, to show that no favorites were played.
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I suppose when the island closing announcement is made, a list of Devs (and possibly magistrates and moderators) who play on that island can be posted, to show that no favorites were played.
I don't think that's necessary. The ultimate decision will be made by me, and I play the exact same amount of characters on every island, in every realm, every guild and every religion.
I have one bias and I've already posted that: I don't want to sink EI, because that would mean shortening the history of the game. We could no longer that say some part of the game have almost 13 years of real history.
Everything else is not an obstacle. For example, while I like Outer Tilog, I also know the realm would re-form elsewhere if Colonies were to sink.
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Ya but sinking Colonies really would have zero affect on what you desire. But i'm sure you know that.
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So when is the island getting closed going to be announced?
Right now I think the uncertainty is doing a lot of harm to the game and players interest in it. Who wants to start something when it could be all taken away a week from now by island closure? Come on. I know the devs are busy as is Tom, but this dragging out is seriously not doing any favors to the game as a whole.
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Tim was assembling the results of the polls a couple days ago. Not sure if he finished yet.
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Tim was assembling the results of the polls a couple days ago. Not sure if he finished yet.
...he should torture us players by announcing,
"DWILIGHT...is the most popular island, and won't be closed. Check back again tomorrow!"
And then every day, cross one island off the list.
It'll be like Reverse Survivor--the island gets voted off by the people, instead of the people getting voted off the island!
;D 8)
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...he should torture us players by announcing,
"DWILIGHT...is the most popular island, and won't be closed. Check back again tomorrow!"
And then every day, cross one island off the list.
It'll be like Reverse Survivor--the island gets voted off by the people, instead of the people getting voted off the island!
;D 8)
Oh god this is brilliant.
Yes, let is be a day to day countdown slowly revealing which islands are staying.