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BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: pcw27 on August 27, 2013, 10:10:18 AM
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Title: Ducal prestige penalties and bonuses
Summary: When a lord switches duchies this causes a loss of prestige for the duke he is abandoning and a prestige bonus to the duke he is joining.
Details: Already stepping down from a lordship costs a point of prestige. Why shouldn't losing a region be equally if not more costly? After all these kind of land disputes could lead to wars. Prestige loss/gain should vary based on the value of the region, a mountain or badlands region could be worth as little as a single point, a city or townsland could be worth several. Regions will always carry equal bonuses and penalties for a change of allegiance. If a duke can convince a lord to return he can earn his prestige back.
Benefits: Creates greater potential for conflict and the forming of factions within realms. Encourages the players of Dukes to adhere more to medieval values.
Possible Exploits: Since the most likely reason for changing duchies is avoiding high ducal taxes this might result in dukes keeping their taxes equal to discourage lords from changing regions. Dukes will probably keep cities for themselves to prevent the risk of them changing duchies.
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The exploit here is a band of griefers destroying the duke's prestige by swapping in and out of the duchy. This can even be plotted to appear in such a way as to be completely IC.
Given that dukes cannot control who goes in and out of their duchy, and that prestige can be so difficult to gain, I am 100% against this feature.
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What is a griefer?
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Someone that spends their time simply annoying other people for the sake of it. It's a pretty common gaming term.
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Put a timer on it. If the person had changed duchies in the last two months or so, no prestige penalty.
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Put a timer on it. If the person had changed duchies in the last two months or so, no prestige penalty.
Just a note, it'd have to be bound on a per-character basis or it'd lose its purpose on a per-region basis. (Forgive me if anyone thought this was obvious.)
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The exploit here is a band of griefers destroying the duke's prestige by swapping in and out of the duchy. This can even be plotted to appear in such a way as to be completely IC.
That could be negated by adding an equal prestige bonus when a region joins a duchy.
Also there's a waiting period for changing your allegiance. If it's too short it can be increased.
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Why not make this the other way around?
Make lords lose honor and prestige for switching duchies! 8)
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Why not make this the other way around?
Make lords lose honor and prestige for switching duchies! 8)
Because Dukes should be able to influence Lords with their superior leadership qualities.
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Why not make this the other way around?
Make lords lose honor and prestige for switching duchies! 8)
I could see a loss of honor but not prestige.
The point is to drive conflict not discourage people from changing duchies.
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Or both. Lord loses honour, Duke loses prestige. Everybody loses. That way the lord doesn't switch without good reason, and the duke has an incentive to try to keep him from switching.
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Yeah I meant both honor loss for the lord and prestige for a duke.
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Make it a carrot instead of a stick. All Dukes could receive a temporary +1 prestige for every Lord sworn to him. This works like unique items: when the Lord leaves, the +1 disappears, but the Duke can never get below his original prestige level.
This also neatly avoid all griefers issues.
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Make it a carrot instead of a stick. All Dukes could receive a temporary +1 prestige for every Lord sworn to him. This works like unique items: when the Lord leaves, the +1 disappears, but the Duke can never get below his original prestige level.
This also neatly avoid all griefers issues.
I've grown increasingly fond of methods like this of applying both bonuses and penalties in recent months...if we do make some kind of incentive for Dukes to keep Lords in their duchies, I think it should look a lot like this.
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Make it a carrot instead of a stick. All Dukes could receive a temporary +1 prestige for every Lord sworn to him. This works like unique items: when the Lord leaves, the +1 disappears, but the Duke can never get below his original prestige level.
This also neatly avoid all griefers issues.
That would also work if when they first become Duke they receive a temporary +1 for every region already in the duchy.
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That would also work if when they first become Duke they receive a temporary +1 for every region already in the duchy.
They just have a +1 for every Lord in their duchy. That's it, nothing more. You just have to count the regions in their duchy and adjust prestige accordingly.
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I dunno I prefer for more valuable regions to be worth more but either works.
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Work it up and give the ruler +1 prestige for each duchy in his realm too (or more, if you wish). This would make a "royal" position actually more prestigious, and would stimulate the ruler to create several duchies. Also otherwise, if all regions of a realm are in one duchy, that would be one prestigious duke (which may be, somehow, an exploit... although I don't know how yet. Breaking records maybe?)
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Work it up and give the ruler +1 prestige for each duchy in his realm too (or more, if you wish). This would make a "royal" position actually more prestigious, and would stimulate the ruler to create several duchies. Also otherwise, if all regions of a realm are in one duchy, that would be one prestigious duke (which may be, somehow, an exploit... although I don't know how yet. Breaking records maybe?)
If it's +1 prestige per region for the duke, make it the same for the ruler. Since the ruler rules all the regions, he/she should naturally have higher prestige than the dukes.
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Work it up and give the ruler +1 prestige for each duchy in his realm too (or more, if you wish). This would make a "royal" position actually more prestigious, and would stimulate the ruler to create several duchies. Also otherwise, if all regions of a realm are in one duchy, that would be one prestigious duke (which may be, somehow, an exploit... although I don't know how yet. Breaking records maybe?)
You'd also have the opposite problem of the King making every single region lord a duke, just to farm prestige.
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You'd also have the opposite problem of the King making every single region lord a duke, just to farm prestige.
He can't though. Only cities, townlands, and strongholds. I can't see it as a bad thing if they were all made duke, even if the king just did it for prestige.
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You'd also have the opposite problem of the King making every single region lord a duke, just to farm prestige.
Count regions instead of duchies. Problem solved.
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If it's +1 prestige per region for the duke, make it the same for the ruler. Since the ruler rules all the regions, he/she should naturally have higher prestige than the dukes.
I don't think that's necessary. A Duchy seceding is already a big deal for a realm. The idea behind this was that Dukes seem to flat out ignore the loss of a region when they should be furious about it.
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How much do Dukes flat out ignore the loss of a region? In the very least, I've seen various occasions where Dukes actively try to maintain a core of regions in their Duchies and get upset if a Lord switches allegiances. They don't always throw out in public how this Lord got the better of them, but they certainly don't ignore it. Is it really a problem?
Still, doesn't make this a bad suggestion though, far from it.
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I for one have never seen it. In Iashalur several regions switched from Gaston to Niselur duchy and Duke Qadan never said a word to me or as far as I know to the Lords who were abandoning him.
A duke absolutely should publicly rebuke a lord who's abandoning his duchy and stealing his region. That's at minimum. Half the time it should end in a duel if not an ongoing feud between the two duchies.
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I for one have never seen it. In Iashalur several regions switched from Gaston to Niselur duchy and Duke Qadan never said a word to me or as far as I know to the Lords who were abandoning him.
A duke absolutely should publicly rebuke a lord who's abandoning his duchy and stealing his region. That's at minimum. Half the time it should end in a duel if not an ongoing feud between the two duchies.
I disagree. Applying any kind of this should always or this should happen half the time, is IMO a bad thing to suggest because you are trying to say all characters or half the characters should do a certain action. Regions switching duchies being a bigger deal, sure, but I disagree with saying a character should always do something, because, no not all characters should be the same, some should be more lax, some more strict on the matter being outraged that a lord would switch duchies, and some being not very happy with the lord for a little while but gets over it soon enough.
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I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying every single Duke should get furious, call the lord nine different curses, demand a duel and never speak to the lord again, but they should say something, even if it's just to politely ask for an explanation. Unless the region switch was part of some arrangement he made with the other duke it really should not go without a response.
A duke saying absolutely nothing when a region leaves his Duchy should be as rare as a King not saying anything when a region or duchy leaves his realm.
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I don't think that's necessary. A Duchy seceding is already a big deal for a realm. The idea behind this was that Dukes seem to flat out ignore the loss of a region when they should be furious about it.
That's fine. I'm just thinking about consistency in how prestige is calculated, and the fact that the number of regions in a kingdom is more indicative of a ruler's importance than the number of duchies.
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I don't think it's a matter of the number of regions alone but also the quality of said regions. Either way most realms aren't ok with regions leaving the realm entirely either.
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I don't think it's a matter of the number of regions alone but also the quality of said regions. Either way most realms aren't ok with regions leaving the realm entirely either.
Umm...so we agree then? Or are you proposing a new system where the ruler's prestige depends on "the quality of said regions"?
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Oh I was just saying that's how I feel about regions, but I don't think the ruler really needs a penalty. In fact I think if the Dukes could lose prestige and the Ruler couldn't (unless they were Dukes too) could drive a wedge between Kings and Dukes, which is good as it makes realms more prone to internal conflict.
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Oh I was just saying that's how I feel about regions, but I don't think the ruler really needs a penalty. In fact I think if the Dukes could lose prestige and the Ruler couldn't (unless they were Dukes too) could drive a wedge between Kings and Dukes, which is good as it makes realms more prone to internal conflict.
There is no penalty, only a bonus, or lack of one, with the prior suggestions.
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Either way I don't think the ruler needs to be a part of this request.
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I plan to introduce a comprehensive suggestion on prestige/honour loss/gain relating to all levels of hierarchy engaging in personal/region/duchy switching/loss/gain and existing game-mechanic context for that switch in the private dev board soonish. I hadn't considered providing bonuses for regions/duchies before though, so I will definitely add this, when I bring it up.
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It might work to even just have the notification read "... this could be considered a major insult, you should probably ask the lord why he's left".