BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Tom on August 27, 2013, 11:10:57 AM
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A simple idea that might solve several issues at once:
- newbie retention
- position turnover
- in-realm political fighting
The idea is this: Make prison time dependent on the character captured:- simple nobles with no position: 2 days
- knights (nobles with an estate): 3 days
- marshals, stewards, etc: 5 days
- landed nobility (lords): 7 days (as now)
- dukes: 15 days
- government members: 30 days
- rulers: 40 days
The first part should be obvious: Prison is no fun, especially for newcomers. So release them quickly.
The second part is less obvious, but important: Put the high-ranking characters behind bars for really long times. This will achieve several things:- it will make things like ransoming your king interesting
- it gives ambitious other characters within the realm an opportunity to make their move
- it makes government members high-value targets in a war
It would be fairly easy to code.
Disadvantages:
It'll piss off some old geezers and might make them even more reluctant to start a war.
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At first sight I like it! The highest bars are maybe a bit too long, but the idea is sound.
I can see an exploit: infiltrators would tend to remain estate-less to escape prison faster, or could even drop their estate prior to attempting an infiltrator action only to retake it if they succeed. Would it be easy to differentiate between prison caused by a 'criminal action' and prison due to being captured in battle? I could see the low limits applying when captured in battle but a hard floor of 7 days when captured for a specific act.
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:( this isnt a good idea, I'm a great Duke (and only have been one for 2 months), and Lord, very active, and part of everything. I have even been told that I bring a lot of colour, this will punish my good activity, and also make me have to chose if I will take part in war with my Realm - of which I am Marshal of. My Realm was pretty much dead before I was there, not saying it was all me, its not, but just saying it was pretty slow, now we are more active, but we are still finding it hard to fill all positions as it is. In the short 4 months I have been in Riombara, we have had 3 Duke elections, already + around 12 Lordship elections. Inactivity is more than making up for changeover in Riombara. Our turnover in Council positions has been pretty frequent too.
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I like the theory, bu as with egamma, I see the high-end bands as being awful long. Just think of what would happen inf your 15-person realm got into war, and their top 5 people (all councilors and he duke) got captured in a battle. One-third of their realm would be in prison long enough that the war would essentially be over. Some people may view that as a plus, but I don't really think it is.
I'm not against making prison stays longer than they are for the top people, if those at the bottom get less. But 40 days? If I was looking at that, I'd stop playing my character and just let him pause in prison.
About this line: "it will make things like ransoming your king interesting" - Is this an allusion to allowing the realm to pay the ransom for the imprisoned characters?
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Is this an allusion to allowing the realm to pay the ransom for the imprisoned characters?
This does not require a new game mechanic - the Judge can let the emprisoned character go if he is convinced to. Few people bother to do that now mostly because by the time the negotiations could take place, there's a 50% the character is already out of prison anyway.
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I think the idea is a good one. Personally, I'd make the shortest times be reserved specifically for players who have been in the game less than a month and players who have been in the game less than six months. Then make the "standard" length for a noble with no feudal or government position be 5 days.
Then, on the high end, as others have said, I'd pull it in a bit—maybe make Dukes 12 days, government members 16, and rulers 25, or something along those lines. I think 30 for government members and 40 for rulers is too steep.
There's something else to consider here, too: Should we make prison no longer count as inactivity for the purposes of losing positions? Because right now, if we did this, it would just cause all the position-holders to time out after 5 days, so someone new could be elected/appointed. Then the poor old ruler just gets to languish in prison for the next 5 weeks without any position or anything.
As a final note, I like the idea of the realm being able to pay a ransom for a captured government member. That would make a very interesting dynamic...particularly if the government member in question isn't universally loved ;D
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I'm not spending 12 days out of a game, that I enjoy, 7 days was, and is hard enough.
One of my chars just spent 7 days max in a prison on Dwilight, and it was 'okay' only because she only just arrived to the realm, and my other chars are busier than her, so I could leave her go in prison, without getting frustrated.
When I first got into the game, I got a 7 day prison sentence from a rogue prison, and I tell you something, if my partner wasnt playing the game, I might have walked then.
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When I first got into the game, I got a 7 day prison sentence from a rogue prison, and I tell you something, if my partner wasnt playing the game, I might have walked then.
With this new system, those new to the game would only stay two days in prison, instead of seven.
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Would it be easy to differentiate between prison caused by a 'criminal action' and prison due to being captured in battle?
Not only easy, the game already does it. When you are a judge, for example, you can see how your prisoners were captured and where.
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About this line: "it will make things like ransoming your king interesting" - Is this an allusion to allowing the realm to pay the ransom for the imprisoned characters?
No, its an allusion to thinking about other options then the random escape chance and just waiting until it's over. That is why I put the max terms extremely high intentionally. I want people to NOT wait them out, but figure out ways of getting out earlier. Ransom is just one obvious one. Making a deal with the enemy judge is another. Prisoner exchanges are a third.
None of them require new game mechanics.
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While I like the idea, I do worry this might turn into a griefer's playground. There's already a lot of OOC tension in IC wars, I worry some people might seize the opportunity to screw each other over by letting their enemies rot in prison for the full term, despite efforts towards early release.
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Ah yes, of course, and something that would be a fix to the game, but anything else...to do with this. I would consider myself personally dissapointed should the time be extended past 7 days for anything else. I'm not all that interested in not being able to play for a week, its equated in my mind already to a forum ban, and as some form of punishment for prison, as it is. I do not see the whole point to prison, which is basically just a ban from the game. It should actually still be something that keeps me entertained in the game, Im not here because I want to 'not play'.
Plus there was a mention of ransoming for a King or Ruler, while fun, as stated, by the time 7 days rolls around, the agonising interplay of the nobles, and finally convincing the other Judge to let the Ruler go etc, too much power to ruin someones game time, in another players hands, far as I am concerned.
Prison is a ban, its a 'player punishment' regulated to the form of a chracter lock for doing something wrong, ie the Magistrates, but I didnt do anything wrong, except play the game...
Fix the mentor system, would be more important than this simple coding. If not for my partner, again, who encouraged me to try other realms, etc, I would not have stayed past my first realm. Because of the lack of contact that was made to me, and lack of help. I learned this game via another person, and many do.
Encouraging more public letters, instead of private is also a good thing, and this just needs to be a highly recommended pl;ayer culture, perhaps a notice when people click on other peoples names to send a message, a pop up appears, saying: "Think about the other people in your Realm, does this really need to be a private message, or could you do more and share more with the other members of the Realm, so they too are a part of what is going on, if so, consider posting this to the user group, unless strictly personal." Or something like that. Frankly using this in my Marshal's role has led to better interaction between characters, more imput and involvement, to the point that all Nobles in Riombara have involved themselves in the Realm's recent war, which it didnt used to have.
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I also agree that anything more than 2 weeks is just absurd. Why not make it so that there is a default sentence of 3 days and then extending that sentence costs the Judge gold? Each extension would cost more and more gold however the cost of holding someone in a government position would cost less than holding a plain knight. That way the Judge can hold on to the rulers and dukes longer than the average peon.
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Prison is a ban, its a 'player punishment' regulated to the form of a chracter lock for doing something wrong, ie the Magistrates, but I didnt do anything wrong, except play the game...
It shouldn't be. IC bans are not player punishment either, they are normal things to be expected once in a while.
If you fight against the odds and instruct your troops to fight it out to the last man, you are likely to be emprisoned. It's alsways a bit of a dice roll, of course, but when you bet high you can lose big.
If you use small retreat percentages and fight conservatively, you won't go in prison. You won't win big either.... it's always a choice.
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An IC ban doesn't stop you from playing the game. I think that's the point, that going to prison locks you out from the game. It shouldn't work as a 'sorry, you cannot play the game with this character for a week/month'. It's not like prison can be entirely avoided except by sitting back in your city and doing nothing (And I don't think we want to encourage that either).
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An IC ban doesn't stop you from playing the game. I think that's the point, that going to prison locks you out from the game. It shouldn't work as a 'sorry, you cannot play the game with this character for a week/month'. It's not like prison can be entirely avoided except by sitting back in your city and doing nothing (And I don't think we want to encourage that either).
As Tom mentioned, you can talk to their judge, and also to your judge, and you can bribe the guards. You're not entirely locked out of the game. I would be glad to see more options, more things to do while in prison, but in the end it's an IC event that is triggered in-game. It should be seen as a normal part of game experience, not as a punishment.
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Being wounded also prevents you from playing—much more so than prison does, in fact. Do you consider wounding to be akin to a forum ban? Do you think we should remove it from the game?
Prison is a part of the game. It has been since the beginning of the game. There is nothing about prison that has changed to make more people leave the game. There have always been a few people who think that being in prison for a week is the worst thing EVAR, and there always will be, but that doesn't mean it's actually a detriment to the game as a whole.
Furthermore, this change—making sure that new players can't be put in prison for longer than a few days—should significantly help in making sure that new players aren't kept from the game, and thus increase their enjoyment.
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But then the judge steals your gold, how long can you bribe the guards for? If it fails, or you don't have the money, you're locked out. That has nothing to do with an IC ban, which still allows you to play, just not in the realm of your choice. It's already stated that 'Prison is no fun', so then making people be stuck in prison for a month instead of a week doesn't seem to be a very logical follow-up on that. Especially when it's a rogue prison. So we need to make prison less of a 'locks you out of doing anything' and more like 'part of the game experience'. Perhaps take out the bribing part and allow everyone to always send and receive messages would be a dirty quick-fix to this. It wouldn't be such a lock out of the game then. It still inconveniences you, it still makes the enemy judge have some power over you and prevents you from doing some things, but it doesn't prevent you from playing.
EDIT: Wounding in that sense does the same. But at least it allows younger characters to heal up quicker, and tends to not last very long unless you're a 80-year old dude. These changes to prison can keep people out of the game for a month potentially.
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In modern prisons, prisoners spend their time exercising and getting degrees (at least according to films). Maybe imprisonment wouldn't be such a drag if there was an opportunity for prisoners to increase their skills at a faster rate than they normally could. So every hour they spend studying or training in prison is like 2 or 3 hours on the outside. By the time they get out they could have mad swordfighting skills, and it's less boring for the player.
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I like the idea. People with less holdings aren't held in prison for very long. It makes sense and would be a good gameplay addition.
As far as the long prison times originally suggested, I'd rather Duke/Council members have a sure shot of losing their position unless they pay the ransom, Lords could get a random chance of being released in time or losing position. The ransom should also be higher for higher positions. You want to enable people to join the fight if they want to without risking weeks of downtime, but still risking their prestigious positions and/or chests of gold.
In modern prisons, prisoners spend their time exercising and getting degrees (at least according to films). Maybe imprisonment wouldn't be such a drag if there was an opportunity for prisoners to increase their skills at a faster rate than they normally could. So every hour they spend studying or training in prison is like 2 or 3 hours on the outside. By the time they get out they could have mad swordfighting skills, and it's less boring for the player.
Might not be a bad idea. Maybe some of the softer skills would be good. Oratory and Trade (sweet talking guards, trading a few gold for smokes/wine).
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On the whole, I like the idea (particularly getting newbies out of prison quickly). Although I have a couple of thoughts:
The longer prison times could be awfully hard on priest characters since they can be arrested pretty much at will if you're that way inclined. They could spend more time in prison than out of it.
It's becoming harder and harder to find players who are interested in taking on military positions (maybe one or two players for some realms). Keeping those key players in prision for 15 to 30 days would effectively end some wars or destroy some small-to-medium sized realms. I don't think there's any power on earth that would persuade some judges to release key characters if keeping them in prison for the full stretch helped them win a war.
Maybe it would also encourage people to pile resources into family gold to have the option for the family to pay the ransom.
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Perhaps if we added a system where judges could pay the ransom for nobles of their realm, it would be less devastating. Judge asks for gold from wealthy Dukes, and if the ruler is well liked, it gets coughed up and the ruler is released.... But if said Dukes are ambitious and plotting to take the throne... Sure, let him rot.
And yes, a huge cut on that time needs to be made for priests or the class will quickly become unplayable.
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Perhaps if we added a system where judges could pay the ransom for nobles of their realm, it would be less devastating. Judge asks for gold from wealthy Dukes, and if the ruler is well liked, it gets coughed up and the ruler is released.... But if said Dukes are ambitious and plotting to take the throne... Sure, let him rot.
And yes, a huge cut on that time needs to be made for priests or the class will quickly become unplayable.
Yes! And if they don't like the ruler, they can pay the judge to keep him in prison longer while they make a play for the rulership.
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And yes, a huge cut on that time needs to be made for priests or the class will quickly become unplayable.
Actually, mixed with the idea of skill gains in prison (the idea of gaining oratory in particular) and maybe throw in some conversion abilities from within the prison (guards, prisoners, etc)....it might actually make arresting priests more interesting for both parties.
Imagine planting a seed of an opposing religion within the capital of your enemy's realm.
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Actually, mixed with the idea of skill gains in prison (the idea of gaining oratory in particular) and maybe throw in some conversion abilities from within the prison (guards, prisoners, etc)....it might actually make arresting priests more interesting for both parties.
Imagine planting a seed of an opposing religion within the capital of your enemy's realm.
I like that. I like it a lot.
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What happens if a steward gets captured, and the next day the lord makes someone else steward? Will his sentence be reduced?
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Perhaps if we added a system where judges could pay the ransom for nobles of their realm,
Yes, I just had the same idea. This would solve the griefer issue, because you can't decide to keep the enemy in prison just for fun. If the ransom is paid, he's free.
We'd need to modify our ransom calculations some, but as I said, this whole thing would be fairly easy to code.
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Imagine planting a seed of an opposing religion within the capital of your enemy's realm.
Absolutely no free academy in prison. Infiltrators would line up to be imprisoned by their own judge so they can train for free.
And please don't do the usual that is done with every freaking idea on this board: Add six millions other crap to it, until the whole thing is so heavy that it sinks. If you want to make prison more interesting, that's a totally different topic, go and open a seperate thread or think it through and make a feature request.
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What happens if a steward gets captured, and the next day the lord makes someone else steward? Will his sentence be reduced?
I would think not. If it's going to be based on status or titles, it should be from the time of their capture.
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What happens if a steward gets captured, and the next day the lord makes someone else steward? Will his sentence be reduced?
the same issue exists for all other positions. Answer: TBD.
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Being wounded also prevents you from playing—much more so than prison does, in fact. Do you consider wounding to be akin to a forum ban? Do you think we should remove it from the game?
Prison is a part of the game. It has been since the beginning of the game. There is nothing about prison that has changed to make more people leave the game. There have always been a few people who think that being in prison for a week is the worst thing EVAR, and there always will be, but that doesn't mean it's actually a detriment to the game as a whole.
Furthermore, this change—making sure that new players can't be put in prison for longer than a few days—should significantly help in making sure that new players aren't kept from the game, and thus increase their enjoyment.
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Your missing my point. 7 days is livable, and barely so. Its the social contract I signed up on, so I have to stick to it. I dont like them, I dont like the wounding either, some of our players are wounded and never log in again, is that a fact? I dont know, so see example below and judge for yourself. (as marshal I have to keep an eye on all the players in the realm, its just part of the job, so Im seeing a lot of data, and I wouldnt discount the fact that things like this are a game player killer. But I havent actually said 'all' people Anaris, I was just talking about me, and what I would do as a player. Take the input into consideration or not, thats your choice, and not mine to make, but dont lump me in with the 'always crowd' either. I'm a very sane and matter of fact player. But I was asked an opinion and so Im giving it. and I am giving it from a personal 'what I would do'. Others, ie Tom, are going to have to read into that whether others would do the same, or not. I would consider it very strongly if I was him, but also, I am not him, and this is his game to do what he wills with, and I can leave if ultimately I do not like it. Thats my choice, and I fully understand and respect that. But it is sad that I have the potential to get punished just because 'Old Geezers' need to be disrespected and punished.
Although, can I say, my partner is an 'old geezer' and I cant tell you how much of a fan he is of Tom’s. To the point that all through the beginning, and even now, when I post in forums, I have to run a lot of it past him to make sure Im not breaking any of the rules. So Im getting angry that my partner always feels he cant say how he feels, because he’s one of those ‘old geezers’. And I cant say how I feel, because he wants Tom to like me. Hi Tom, hope you like me! Anyway, he loves this game to death, is so active, and so involved, and so good for new players. So maybe Tom needs to step back and appreciate his players a bit more too? Or figure out a different way to handle the pain in the arse players, that seem to attract to games like trolls just so they can just be trolls, and stop punishing those players that arent. I know its hard to do, but its really off putting to see the disrespect dished out by a game owner to players that have supported his game year in, and year out. Point of fact, the trolls have supported him too, year in and year out, who’s not to say, that they shouldnt get to live on their rewards? I mean, what is ones definition of a troll? A personality you don’t like… rather personal isnt it? So only people that are likeable can play? Everyones an ass, sometime, or even all the time, but their still around, making the game work, it’s the others that have left, how much loyalty should Tom be displaying to those players who don’t stick around? As opposed to his ‘old geezers’?
You can bash away at me, because your personally invested in the game, so is my husband, and I can understand you might see this as a negative. I'm tough though, and been around forums/games long enough to not care about the backlash when stating my piece, because, no matter how you write it, someone, somewhere is going to get pissy about it. But just so you know, your backlashing on me, because I have a strong opinion about the game, and as a Dev, that is also unattractive, even if you are a volunteer. I can still respect the hell out of the personal time you put into the game, and some of your forum comments and game comments are extremely relevant and level headed, but I dont have to respect how you speak to people, you don’t like or agree with. And I don’t.
Anyway, long post to say stuff, guess its been sitting inside a while.
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Example: have another Lord right now in our army hasnt logged in since his wounding. He was the new Judge of our Realm, his first time in office, hadnt even got a chance to play it yet, and yet, instead of coming back to pick that up, he decided not to come back. Why is that? No one can say 100% that people dont leave because of this feature. Unless you ring them up and ask them, you cant know. And I never even claimed that they did.
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Absolutely no free academy in prison. Infiltrators would line up to be imprisoned by their own judge so they can train for free.
And please don't do the usual that is done with every freaking idea on this board: Add six millions other crap to it, until the whole thing is so heavy that it sinks. If you want to make prison more interesting, that's a totally different topic, go and open a seperate thread or think it through and make a feature request.
I agree that skill gains in prison could be potentially game breaking, hence why I suggested soft skills that typically don't have big impact. Do people seriously spend gold training oratory and trade?
As to adding ideas, I understand hijacking threads with additional ideas isn't helping the thread...but when you have a discussion about 'improving the game via prison', it is a bit open ended and making prison more interesting doesn't sound unrelated. Anyhow, sometimes it takes group brainstorming in related threads to actually have the idea for the other feature.
Perhaps if we added a system where judges could pay the ransom for nobles of their realm, it would be less devastating.
This sounds like it would make it interesting. I'm not sure if anyone would ever pay it, as characters are fairly easy to replace with someone waiting in line. Might make nepotism more important, which creates stronger bonds between characters.
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I agree that skill gains in prison could be potentially game breaking, hence why I suggested soft skills that typically don't have big impact. Do people seriously spend gold training oratory and trade?
Oratory is what powers priests and diplomats.
Think about what they can do to you.
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Absolutely no free academy in prison. Infiltrators would line up to be imprisoned by their own judge so they can train for free.
And please don't do the usual that is done with every freaking idea on this board: Add six millions other crap to it, until the whole thing is so heavy that it sinks. If you want to make prison more interesting, that's a totally different topic, go and open a seperate thread or think it through and make a feature request.
Two points: 1. It might happen, but it would be an abuse of power and if the judge routinely abuses his power the ruler can remove him from his position and other nobles would get pissed off. 2. Nobody said it had to be free. There shouldn't be any unfair advantage. At best it should be a significant trade-off to spend time behind bars. You lose contact with the outside world, if you're gone long enough you might lose any titles or positions you hold, the judge can take your gold, if you spend a lot of time in jail you should lose prestige (you are, after all, an ex-con). 3. You said yourself that prison is boring. Your ideas might well create interesting IG dynamics, but they do nothing for the player who is actually in prison. (I know that's 3 things, so shoot me! :) )
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if the judge routinely abuses his power the ruler can remove him from his position
No, he can't.
Once someone holds a government position, the ruler can't just kick them out of office. They'd have to be protested out.
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This only makes sense if there are more things to do in prison, and if there were then new players would probably not be so fussed at having their characters banged up.
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Once someone holds a government position, the ruler can't just kick them out of office. They'd have to be protested out.
Great, so there is some form of recourse.
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Or the ruler can make the position elected, and the realm can vote him out.
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Just think of what would happen inf your 15-person realm got into war, and their top 5 people (all councilors and he duke) got captured in a battle.
And here I thought you didn't have a character in the Barony of Makar! (We're down to 13.)
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I am not sure about the length of time though, a max of two weeks is more than enough to drive people crazy. And the semi-random nature of being captured in battle is going to make people feel like they are being shafted by the game.
But I am all for the early release of new players.
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People do realize how cheap ransoms get after 7 days, right? All this concern of being held in prison for 40 days is rather moot if you can pay your way out with about 10 gold on days 5-7. Now if there was a suggestion to decrease the rate ransoms decrease, I'd understand the concerns, but if you're still in prison on day 20 with this change, its either because the judge stole your gold, you had no gold to start with, or you *like* prison.
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Just think of what would happen inf your 15-person realm got into war, and their top 5 people (all councilors and he duke) got captured in a battle.
Then they would still have more nobles than Lyonesse.
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I'd understand the concerns, but if you're still in prison on day 20 with this change, its either because the judge stole your gold, you had no gold to start with, or you *like* prison.
Forgot about the decreasing ransom, and dont forget you can pay with family gold too. So unless you really like prison......
Then wouldnt the change be pointless if there is no change in ransoms?
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People do realize how cheap ransoms get after 7 days, right?
That would change.
But ransom is the answer to the "booh, 40 days is eternity" crowd.
Yes, 40 days is eternity. That's the whole point. The idea is that this massive amount of time forces you to actually pay the ransom, or find some other way to get out early. And since it only happens to really important people, you should expect your realm to bail you out. And if they don't - well, that's a message, isn't it?
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Regarding Tom proposal, I think simple nobles with no position: 1 day will be nice. At present, the new noble who got into war(due to his close proximity to the battle frontline) and having no position and no estate in the realm, it can be frustrating moment for them. As we have experienced Prison feature before, a lot of functions are taken away.
Speaking from my numerous Mentorship, new players will find themselves lacking any guidance. This is why I informed player of SaDiablo to release my realm new player as soon as he can. The same thing when his realm new player landed in my realm prison, I try to release as soon as I see it. But as Judge, I notice a problem. Unless we take some effort to go and view the particular character family and see she playing since what date, we will not be able to know if the player is new or not. How about name it as "Newbie Protection" similar like how you cannot choose Hero and go get your first death in your character family as soon as you signed up?
P/S: I just love the Mentor feature so much. I used to train a new player who is religionless in game and like to hug and pray to tree. Which undoubtedly I found it funny as my priestess character tried to convert him but failed spectacularly. An upgrade to Mentor will be a much helpful guidance to new players as well.
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Regarding Tom proposal, I think simple nobles with no position: 1 day will be nice.
2 days is so the enemy judge has a chance at interaction and the captured player has a chance to experience prison. Lots of casual players can easily miss a day. About a third of our players do not log in every day.
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Having been in prison several times for the full seven days, there is nothing more boring than logging in and not being able to do anything. How dare I even think of participating in battle? I guess we better lock you up for a week just to make sure you understand just how bad going to battle is!
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Having been in prison several times for the full seven days, there is nothing more boring than logging in and not being able to do anything. How dare I even think of participating in battle? I guess we better lock you up for a week just to make sure you understand just how bad going to battle is!
Yes, and I recall you complaining about it before, too. However, I don't recall you making any constructive suggestions on how it could be changed.
What do you think we should do differently, Gustav? How can we make prison restricting and limiting IC, without robbing you of OOC fun?
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Honestly? Get rid of the bribing the guards aspect and just let us send messages. We're playing nobles, the main reason for imprisoning us should be ransoming. If we can send out messages, all the better to help arrange said ransoms.
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One of the reasons for restricting message flow is to prevent the nobles in prison from going about their business as normal. How ridiculous would it be to capture the enemy general who is masterminding the invasion of your realm, and have him still coordinating all of his realms movements and strategies while he's a prisoner in your dungeon! Or to have the enemy Marshal still issuing orders to his army. Or to capture the enemy ruler and have him still arranging alliances against you.
If message traffic were made more accessible, then certain other restrictions would have to be put in place, such as preventing access to any scout reports, battle reports, realm/army information, etc. Maybe restrict message types to Letter and Roleplay. Or maybe there could be some option for the enemy judge to read copies of the messages their prisoner sends. (Something would have to be worked out where this doesn't impact the Torture option of gaining access to a prisoner's letters.)
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Or maybe there could be some option for the enemy judge to read copies of the messages their prisoner sends.
This.
Limiting message type won't help IMO. They'll just use a different type for the same message. Like that time the Orders tag was restricted, and people would just issue 'requests' instead.
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If you allow the prisoners to send messages, then you can also read all of his messages he sends out.
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Limiting message type won't help IMO. They'll just use a different type for the same message.
It could help in several ways. It's harder, and much less effective, to give orders if you can't use the Orders tag. They don't show up for Quickplayers, nor do they show up in the message filter. Both are techniques I use quite often to find orders. Characters who may not want to follow the orders also have a fallback defense.
Not only that, it also reinforces the idea that you're not just unable to move your character for a day or two, you are in prison. I can't really see any negative aspects of limiting message types, but there are a few possible positive aspects.
Like that time the Orders tag was restricted, and people would just issue 'requests' instead.
At least one character was killed by a lightning storm for pulling some crap similar to this. Attempting to bypass a restriction in such a manner is not likely to be viewed in a positive light.
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Or maybe there could be some option for the enemy judge to read copies of the messages their prisoner sends.
I'm quite sure that judges get to read letters sent via the non guard-bribing message options. If we allow sending messages somewhat more freely, I'm sure a reasonable balance would be letting the judge read your correspondence. That's how many early cyphers originated was corresponding with an imprisoned public figure.
I do like the suggestion to restrict message types, as well.
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Basic suggestion, allow adding to be able to speak with more people while in prison but with more risk of the judge reading their messages. I would like the idea of judge's getting a page separate then normal messaging to read their prisoner's messages, so that they have to choose to go and look at them instead of automatically seeing them.
People you should be able to talk with IMO while in prison, all your liege's, ambassadors, and judge. So as a knight you would get to speak with your lord, duke, king, ambassadors, and your judge.
When you bribe the guards, there should still be a chance the guards send it to the judge to read anyways, although perhaps it decreases with your time in prison but increases with the amount of messages you send.
This way they have more people to talk with to work on getting himself or herself out of prison while also it being risky to send important messages even after bribing the guards.
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Basic suggestion, allow adding to be able to speak with more people while in prison but with more risk of the judge reading their messages. I would like the idea of judge's getting a page separate then normal messaging to read their prisoner's messages, so that they have to choose to go and look at them instead of automatically seeing them.
People you should be able to talk with IMO while in prison, all your liege's, ambassadors, and judge. So as a knight you would get to speak with your lord, duke, king, ambassadors, and your judge.
When you bribe the guards, there should still be a chance the guards send it to the judge to read anyways, although perhaps it decreases with your time in prison but increases with the amount of messages you send.
This way they have more people to talk with to work on getting himself or herself out of prison while also it being risky to send important messages even after bribing the guards.
I've never liked the guard bribing option. Nobles should be able to send their messages at least semi-freely, even if the judge gets a copy of every letter.
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1. Reducing prison time for new players is a great idea.
2. Lengthening prison time for rulers/government members/dukes is a bad idea without other changes being made to make it more acceptable. These should include:
I. Not having prison count as inactivity time (Rulers in prison can continue to be rulers)
II. Allowing prisoners to send letters as normal, but have the judge be able to read ALL letters sent. (This will allow them to continue doing their job.)
The problem I see with this idea in general is that we're trying to use both the carrot and the stick. Yes, make things better for new players, but there is no reason to make things worse for older players. A week is quite long enough. Prison right now stops you from playing the game. That is the problem. Allow people to still play the game while in prison and you no longer have a problem. Just place other restrictions on them.
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Lower prison terms for newbies is a great idea.
I'm on the fence about the high numbers for important people. It would depend on how the players react. Remember a 40 day cap doesn't mean they'll actually be there that long, there's just a greater motivation for their realm mates to bail them out. That is of course if they want to. A King Richard and Prince John situation could be very interesting in Battle Master.
Question, if someone pays a character's ransom the realm must let them go correct? That's pretty important here.
If message traffic were made more accessible, then certain other restrictions would have to be put in place, such as preventing access to any scout reports, battle reports, realm/army information, etc. Maybe restrict message types to Letter and Roleplay. Or maybe there could be some option for the enemy judge to read copies of the messages their prisoner sends. (Something would have to be worked out where this doesn't impact the Torture option of gaining access to a prisoner's letters.)
I would suggest they not have access to any realm wide communications, but they can still message anyone on their contacts list and receive messages from anyone contacting them. The judge can read any of these letters and any letters the prisoner receives. This would discourage military leaders from sending orders from prison.
Another possibility is limit the number of letters they can send. This would discourage griefers from spamming the judge.
Doesn't the torture option give you access past letters? That's pretty useful in and of itself.
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You could make it so that you at first get thrown in dungeons for a variable small amount of time, at most 7 days as it is now. Regular nobles get freed after 7 days; however government members and Dukes get put under 'house arrest' which is kind of prison-lite: they can read and answer letters, and they can't be tortured, but their character remains 'in prison' (not physically located in a particular region), can't lead troops, can't use the banks, until their realm has paid a ransom to free them.
This would have all the advantages of the proposed system, without making it a game-breaking experience.
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I dont see how the proposed system was game-breaking in the first place as long as the judge could read all their letters. there is no advantage to giving out army commands if the judge of the enemy realm can read it, so letting a marshal speak to his realm isnt exactly an unfair advantage on his part.
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I think by game breaking he meant "game ruining" as in ruining it for the person in prison who can't do anything.
Two thoughts.
1. Freeing prisoners by force.
Suppose you sack the enemy capital, you should have a chance to free all your imprisoned realm mates right?
2. Luxuries.
If the Judge is feeling generous, they can grant the imprisoned noble access to the academy. It gives the prisoner more to do during their stay and it can drive roleplay, maybe the Judge will try to flip the enemy noble in a stockholm syndrome type situation.
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1. Freeing prisoners by force.
Suppose you sack the enemy capital, you should have a chance to free all your imprisoned realm mates right?
If there is a battle in the capital of a realm with prisoners, there is a chance for those prisoners to be freed already.
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If there is a battle in the capital of a realm with prisoners, there is a chance for those prisoners to be freed already.
Exactly. It's one of the hundred or so non-advertised little features of the game. It's been in there for years.
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Exactly. It's one of the hundred or so non-advertised little features of the game. It's been in there for years.
That's because nobody ever sees it work. Can you review the odds of a prison break happening, and maybe increase it?
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That's because nobody ever sees it work. Can you review the odds of a prison break happening, and maybe increase it?
I've seen it work even when a 300CS undead unit attacks the capital and is instantly wiped out.
It's just rare that a battle happens in a capital to start with, and then having that happens to coincide with having prisoners is rarer.
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That's because nobody ever sees it work. Can you review the odds of a prison break happening, and maybe increase it?
The odds already are considerably. It's just that battles in capitals are rare.
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That's because nobody ever sees it work. Can you review the odds of a prison break happening, and maybe increase it?
I've had it happen to my characters twice, and was very glad for it.
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I dont see how the proposed system was game-breaking in the first place as long as the judge could read all their letters. there is no advantage to giving out army commands if the judge of the enemy realm can read it, so letting a marshal speak to his realm isnt exactly an unfair advantage on his part.
Personally, I don't think people in prison should be able to send letters at all, with the exception of bribing guards. Perhaps a letter to the judge asking them to pass it on, but prison is prison.
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I like the theory, bu as with egamma, I see the high-end bands as being awful long. Just think of what would happen inf your 15-person realm got into war, and their top 5 people (all councilors and he duke) got captured in a battle. One-third of their realm would be in prison long enough that the war would essentially be over. Some people may view that as a plus, but I don't really think it is.
I'm not against making prison stays longer than they are for the top people, if those at the bottom get less. But 40 days? If I was looking at that, I'd stop playing my character and just let him pause in prison.
About this line: "it will make things like ransoming your king interesting" - Is this an allusion to allowing the realm to pay the ransom for the imprisoned characters?
40 days is a long time, but I would think capturing an enemy Ruler would be devastating to morale and could end the war. 40 days is long, but damn, you capture the Ruler, it should be devastating to the realm.. maybe 14 days
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40 days...that's half a year in BM time.
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I'm sure there are historical pretexts for long imprisonments of rulers. Though I would suggest that higher profile prisoners have fewer restrictions while imprisoned. A ruler would usually be treated far better while imprisoned than a lowly noble.
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I'm sure there are historical pretexts for long imprisonments of rulers. Though I would suggest that higher profile prisoners have fewer restrictions while imprisoned. A ruler would usually be treated far better while imprisoned than a lowly noble.
This was true, some former Roman Emperors were sent to an island as 'imprisonment' and pretty much lived the same lifestyle, they were just removed. Same thing happened to Napoleon, but he found a way back.
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I'm sure there are historical pretexts for long imprisonments of rulers. Though I would suggest that higher profile prisoners have fewer restrictions while imprisoned. A ruler would usually be treated far better while imprisoned than a lowly noble.
As a matter of fact, nobles often enjoyed quite luxurious "imprisonment". Then again, sometimes not. If we had unlimited developer manpower, we could simulate lots of variety.
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As a matter of fact, nobles often enjoyed quite luxurious "imprisonment". Then again, sometimes not. If we had unlimited developer manpower, we could simulate lots of variety.
It occurs to me that we should re-think the prison experience. Not for implementation for the next 3 or 6 months, but a long term goal. It is reasonable to expect an enemy ruler would be granted many privileges, and what part does that play in the game?
Tom, I believe you have opened up an entirely new experience.
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As a matter of fact, nobles often enjoyed quite luxurious "imprisonment". Then again, sometimes not. If we had unlimited developer manpower, we could simulate lots of variety.
As long as they gave an oath not to try and escape or harm their captors they were even allowed to carry their swords while in captivity. It was very common for prisoners to be paroled in this form.
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I like where this is going.
Prison Break- What if a feature was added where, if you attack an enemy capitol with a certain unit setting (like 'evasive'), or use a particular unit type (like 'Special Forces'), or a particular designation (like 'Vanguard'), it would dramatically increase the chance of freeing prisoners? This would represent a concentrated effort to free a prisoner, as opposed to a happy accident of circumstance. Imagine it- one heroic Noble brings a band of special forces into the enemy capitol alone. He will probably have his unit wiped out, and be captured himself, but he does so anyway to free his King, or other dignitary, knowing that he will have a better chance with a small unit of specialists than with a massive frontal assault. It would certainly liven up the action if Nobles had an incentive to attack an enemy capitol alone!
Conversely, perhaps we could build a Prison Break option into the Infiltrator Class to help balance out the new longer prison terms.
As far as luxuries, it would be kinda cool if imprisoned rulers were allowed to write to the ruler channel from prison. It would represent the kind of imprisonment that a leader could work to his own political advantage if he plays it right. Also, I vote yes for optional use of the Academy from prison, and also suggest we throw temples, shrines, and maybe even guilds in there. I think some of these options should become intrinsic (meaning the Judge cannot deny them) depending on a character's position, or honor/prestige, or possibly even his family fame.
This overall concept is a great way to raise the stakes, although I do think some of the larger prison terms are unnecessarily long, and some of the shorter ones not long enough. Here is my suggestion, with Priests and Infiltrators added:
simple nobles with no position: 2 days
knights (nobles with an estate): 3 days
priests: 5 days
marshals, stewards, etc: 7 days
infiltrators: 8 days (I personally think they need a better incentive to not get caught, though they should also have an increased chance of escaping)
landed nobility (lords): 10 days
dukes: 15 days
government members: 20 days
rulers: 25 days
This brings the terms a bit closer together overall.
Anyhow, that's my two cents.
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I like where this is going.
Prison Break- What if a feature was added where, if you attack an enemy capitol with a certain unit setting (like 'evasive'), or use a particular unit type (like 'Special Forces'), or a particular designation (like 'Vanguard'), it would dramatically increase the chance of freeing prisoners? This would represent a concentrated effort to free a prisoner, as opposed to a happy accident of circumstance. Imagine it- one heroic Noble brings a band of special forces into the enemy capitol alone. He will probably have his unit wiped out, and be captured himself, but he does so anyway to free his King, or other dignitary, knowing that he will have a better chance with a small unit of specialists than with a massive frontal assault. It would certainly liven up the action if Nobles had an incentive to attack an enemy capitol alone!
Conversely, perhaps we could build a Prison Break option into the Infiltrator Class to help balance out the new longer prison terms.
As far as luxuries, it would be kinda cool if imprisoned rulers were allowed to write to the ruler channel from prison. It would represent the kind of imprisonment that a leader could work to his own political advantage if he plays it right. Also, I vote yes for optional use of the Academy from prison, and also suggest we throw temples, shrines, and maybe even guilds in there. I think some of these options should become intrinsic (meaning the Judge cannot deny them) depending on a character's position, or honor/prestige, or possibly even his family fame.
This overall concept is a great way to raise the stakes, although I do think some of the larger prison terms are unnecessarily long, and some of the shorter ones not long enough. Here is my suggestion, with Priests and Infiltrators added:
simple nobles with no position: 2 days
knights (nobles with an estate): 3 days
priests: 5 days
marshals, stewards, etc: 7 days
infiltrators: 8 days (I personally think they need a better incentive to not get caught, though they should also have an increased chance of escaping)
landed nobility (lords): 10 days
dukes: 15 days
government members: 20 days
rulers: 25 days
This brings the terms a bit closer together overall.
Anyhow, that's my two cents.
If that really was the case for a Lightweight game I would delete my account.
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If that really was the case for a Lightweight game I would delete my account.
Which part, specifically, would make you delete your account?
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Anything more than a few days brings the boredom level to enough where I just don't play with that character. I mean honestly its like a short vacation for your character. Granted your Judge May does a good job keeping players to a short time span.
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It occurs to me that we should re-think the prison experience. Not for implementation for the next 3 or 6 months, but a long term goal. It is reasonable to expect an enemy ruler would be granted many privileges, and what part does that play in the game?
You can copy it from Might & Fealty, where the entire system will be very, very different.
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Conversely, perhaps we could build a Prison Break option into the Infiltrator Class to help balance out the new longer prison terms.
I like that.
And I'm not averse to having more messaging options for prisoners, but I still want them to be severely limited. Being in prison should suck. Maybe right now it sucks a bit too much, but it definitely should be something you want to get away from as soon as possible.
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I like that.
And I'm not averse to having more messaging options for prisoners, but I still want them to be severely limited. Being in prison should suck. Maybe right now it sucks a bit too much, but it definitely should be something you want to get away from as soon as possible.
A possible downside could be increased aging while in prison.
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Anything more than a few days brings the boredom level to enough where I just don't play with that character. I mean honestly its like a short vacation for your character. Granted your Judge May does a good job keeping players to a short time span.
I think it's fine if you let your character sit in stony silence while in prison. Don't you have other characters?
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I think it's fine if you let your character sit in stony silence while in prison. Don't you have other characters?
I have others yes. But it takes time to grow interactions so sometimes to much of the game is sitting in stoney silence. Back in the day when there was more than a few prisoners there was more interaction with yelling and screaming. But now your lucky if you find more than one.
I mean honestly we don't play this game to be in prison, we play it to be in battles which you can never have enough of. Having prison lengths as Tom suggested is in my opinion a terrible idea. Now if this was a hardcore game with more turns in it and faster days then yes it would be fine but its not. But really if you want to find the true value of the players opinion, have an in game poll about it.
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Anything more than a few days brings the boredom level to enough where I just don't play with that character. I mean honestly its like a short vacation for your character. Granted your Judge May does a good job keeping players to a short time span.
I'm sorry to hear that prison stays make you feel that bad about the game. Even now, there are ways to make prison a more engaging part of the playing experience, although I agree that improvements can be made to make it suck less.
I'm curious if you've ever written letters to the Judge who's imprisoned you. Playing as a Judge, I don't think I've ever received a letter from a prisoner trying to talk themselves out of the dungeons (weirdly, not even when I've written to them first). Long stays in dungeons may also indicate that your own Judge isn't doing anything to arrange prisoner exchanges. I've been surprised by how few Judges even bother to try. At the moment, there seems to be some sort of feeling among players that once a character's in prison they just ignore that one and carry on playing with other characters (obvious exception being escape attempts). I think that's partly responsible for long prison stays. If the Judge running the prison never hears from prisoners and never hears from the enemy Judge to bargain for the release of his captured nobles, it's not surprising that many leave prisoners in the cells for the full 7 days.
I also like the idea of adding a prison break feature to infiltrators. I think I suggested something like that myself back when Anaris was asking how the infiltrator class could be improved.
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I'm sorry to hear that prison stays make you feel that bad about the game. Even now, there are ways to make prison a more engaging part of the playing experience, although I agree that improvements can be made to make it suck less.
I'm curious if you've ever written letters to the Judge who's imprisoned you. Playing as a Judge, I don't think I've ever received a letter from a prisoner trying to talk themselves out of the dungeons (weirdly, not even when I've written to them first). Long stays in dungeons may also indicate that your own Judge isn't doing anything to arrange prisoner exchanges. I've been surprised by how few Judges even bother to try. At the moment, there seems to be some sort of feeling among players that once a character's in prison they just ignore that one and carry on playing with other characters (obvious exception being escape attempts). I think that's partly responsible for long prison stays. If the Judge running the prison never hears from prisoners and never hears from the enemy Judge to bargain for the release of his captured nobles, it's not surprising that many leave prisoners in the cells for the full 7 days.
I also like the idea of adding a prison break feature to infiltrators. I think I suggested something like that myself back when Anaris was asking how the infiltrator class could be improved.
Well I am arguing this also to provide another point of view. As a judge myself I tend to let nobles go fairly quickly and try to get my nobles back as fast as possible also. As for infiltrators, the most improvement they need is to be harder to catch, as it stands its way to easy and very discouraging. For example, changing road signs should be low risk, so low chance of being caught, compared to knifing a noble, that could be improved by having a research option that allows you to track the activity of the noble and reduces the risk of capture to a percentage.
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2 days is so the enemy judge has a chance at interaction and the captured player has a chance to experience prison. Lots of casual players can easily miss a day. About a third of our players do not log in every day.
Alright, I see and understand your point, Tom. This is acceptable in my opinion :)
Anything more than a few days brings the boredom level to enough where I just don't play with that character. I mean honestly its like a short vacation for your character. Granted your Judge May does a good job keeping players to a short time span.
Thank you for your praise. I think as Judge, my characters do interact a lot with the prisoners. When they first landed in my dungeon, I will message them first.
I think it's fine if you let your character sit in stony silence while in prison. Don't you have other characters?
Sit in stony silence while in prison for a day or two? Yes, it is fine.
Sit in stony silence while in prison for more than one or two days? Not fine as no interaction between characters occur. Player will get bore with that particular character.
As some forum posters point out. A good Judge is the one who keep interaction and game communication alive and well, even when you are in prison. If we wish to give incentive to Judge who interact with prisoners, perhaps a Rating or some kind of reward for good Judge? ;)
Here's some of the Roleplay of funny interaction between one my character Judge and a prisoner. Not sure if you still can view this forum link below.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2721.0.html (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2721.0.html)
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Sit in stony silence while in prison for a day or two? Yes, it is fine.
Sit in stony silence while in prison for more than one or two days?
your fault. There are always 3 people you can message - their judge, your judge and your liege or ruler, I forgot. Anyways, you never have NO messaging options. In that regard, being wounded is worse.
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your fault. There are always 3 people you can message - their judge, your judge and your liege or ruler, I forgot. Anyways, you never have NO messaging options. In that regard, being wounded is worse.
Maybe I not make myself clear in my last post. Their Judge not talking to me when I was a prisoner. The main reason why I suggest to reward talking Judge.
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your fault. There are always 3 people you can message - their judge, your judge and your liege or ruler, I forgot. Anyways, you never have NO messaging options. In that regard, being wounded is worse.
Well to be fair, every letter takes one hour, and you only get two per turn, so you can't really converse a lot.
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Making high level positions have punitive sentences just increases the incentive to put puppets in those positions with the realm being run by a council of a normal knights. If I were to be imprisoned for more than 2 weeks I would just pause and make a new character.
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How about turning prison into "the prison game".
There could be a "listen to rumors" feature that lets you learn about who else has spent time in the prison, why and under what circumstances they were released. It could also carry the possibility of learning who was tortured after a torture session and by what means. Alternatively your time could be spent solely listening for rumors that will increase your chances of making an escape attempt or finding guards who will accept a bribe.
Unfortunately any hours you spend listening to rumors are also hours you could spend contacting your realm mates to organize a prison transfer. Thus there's a trade off between negotiating for your release, trying to escape, gathering information which will be useful on the outside, and gathering information which will be useful on the inside.
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I've played with Judges most of my time in BM and I must say that the experience is no longer as enjoyable as it used to be when we had more players. Many realms - most of them - have a system of gold distribution... the fines are now purely to lead by example and has no real monetary impact. On the other hand, most of times a ban has a disproportional effect to the "crime" and even so, it's the the only option. My suggestion, and it was always something I had in mind for a long time, would be the option to arrest someone of my own realm. Two days is more than enough. And while you can improve the "prison game", that would be good. People will have more reasons to protest your decision and that will bring much more intra-realm disputes.
About the exile, you can allow a new kind of exile agreed among Judges. If two Judges agree, you can force a prisoner from realm A to join realm B (where he's imprisoned) and once he's released, he can have a chance to start a new life in his "prison", after all, you're a noble arrested in battle, not a poor criminal. It can be good for Dukes, Lords and Rulers, for example. The new realm will be his prison, but you can grow there... this way you don't punish someone excluding him from the game itself, because most of times, this is what happens when you're in prison.
For many old realms, gold is not a problem anymore. Nor it is for old families with a lot of gold to avoid a situation where you will stay in prison for 40 days... instead, you can allow Judges and Ambassadors to use the new treaty system to release a prison after some agreement is fulfilled.
But there is some problems with the idea. You must realize that old people will avoid battles even more... and maybe anyone in a power position will avoid it too. If there is a lack of battles and wars, this new system can be another reason for old/powerful people avoid battles and wars. I have two Dukes... if for some reason I get locked for 30 days with two chars... what do you think will happen!? People will just leave the game... and what the problem with old people? I know realms that without them, the entire realm will crumble and I doubt it will be good for the young people. You also must realize that we don't have realms with 100 people engaged in grow up like we had in the past. In some realms we don't have people even to be our Marshals.
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The thing that people keep forgetting is 30 days is the suggested maximum time in prison. Ideally you wont really be there for that long because the prisoner might escape or be ransomed.
Is it possible to turn down a ransom or does a ransom need to be set and need to be accepted if paid? If prison terms are longer the rule should be the later rather then the former if it isn't already.
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I am pretty sure ransoms are automatically set, and then the amount goes down after each day.
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Ransom already been set and lower down each day. Prisoner can pledge ransom from their family gold or gold on their hands for early release. If we intend for prisoner to stay long in prison, we need something interesting to occupy their times spent there. I like pcw27 idea on how to occupy their times below.
How about turning prison into "the prison game".
There could be a "listen to rumors" feature that lets you learn about who else has spent time in the prison, why and under what circumstances they were released. It could also carry the possibility of learning who was tortured after a torture session and by what means. Alternatively your time could be spent solely listening for rumors that will increase your chances of making an escape attempt or finding guards who will accept a bribe.
Unfortunately any hours you spend listening to rumors are also hours you could spend contacting your realm mates to organize a prison transfer. Thus there's a trade off between negotiating for your release, trying to escape, gathering information which will be useful on the outside, and gathering information which will be useful on the inside.
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As long as our nobles are doing hard time lets think about some other things:
-Getting into fights while in prison.
-Starting prison riots, an option available to heroes or infiltrators. Breaking out via riot gives you a small unit of random soldiers from your realm with really high cohesion.
-Limited training options. Not as good as an academy but maybe you can find a tutor who's willing to show you a few things count of Monte Cristo style.
With stuff like this I'd almost want to get captured.
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woah, calm down there, it still needs to be a punishment of some sort ::)
Isnt getting into fights more of a rp thing? Or do you mean it would be a duel of some sort?
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As long as our nobles are doing hard time lets think about some other things:
-Getting into fights while in prison.
-Starting prison riots,
Uh, you've got a totally wrong image of what prison meant for medieval nobles. Played too much Prison Architect lately?
Prison for a noble would mean one of two things. Either: A damp, dark cell where someone throws food through the door once a day. Or having to stay at the luxury home of your enemy with a promise that you won't attempt to run away.
It's a modern USA thing that you put half your population into essentially cities-behind-bars.
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Well we've pointed out many times that the game is inconsistent with respect to historical accuracy.
A breakout with soldiers isn't all that hard to conceive of. Suppose in the same dungeon complex they have common enemy soldiers who've been captured. They'd most likely be awaiting execution. The best they can hope for is a lifetime of forced labor. Now if you've bribed the guards well enough maybe they'll let you stretch your legs once in a while. Maybe you get to see where the soldiers are kept. Maybe you slip them a spoon you sharpened or a set of keys you've lifted off the guards.
But I'll admit those ideas were getting a little out there anyway. I was only half serious. The rumors options however I almost feel ready to put down as a feature request.
By the way while I'm a major critic of my country's prison industrial complex what you've said is false on many counts. The most obvious is that the prison population isn't anywhere close to half the total population. More importantly the thing that's so troubling about the prison industrial complex is how it increasingly resembles penal systems which were the norm centuries ago. It's not a new invention at all nor is it unique to the USA.