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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Magistrates Case Archive => Topic started by: BattleMaster Server on September 03, 2013, 07:09:18 PM

Title: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: BattleMaster Server on September 03, 2013, 07:09:18 PM

Summary:	OOC comments insulting another player
Violation:	No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players.
World:	Colonies
Complainer:	Eric Henson (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=23524)
About:	Kevin Lee (http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=18625)

Full Complaint Text:
These OOC statements are both directed against the player of the general of Oritolon (Ceasar Magdalen) by the player of Actrial, whose character is the marshal of the army.

Quote

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (15 hours ago)

Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)

What is it about people who

- love power and position

- are bad at the game

- argue with both characters

Kevin Lee

Quote

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (48 minutes ago)

Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)

- and then throw a tantrum while refusing to admit they are terrible at the game

Kevin Lee

Edit: fixed formatting

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: egamma on September 03, 2013, 07:11:11 PM

I know that the context isn't terribly clear, but it was your standard marshal-orders versus general-orders quarrel until Kevin took things OOC.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Vellos on September 04, 2013, 02:46:49 AM

Is that the whole conversation? Any back-and-forth?

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Ketchum on September 04, 2013, 03:28:10 AM

The exchanges between Ceasar Magdalen and Actrial that led to that OOC. Actrial is commenting OOC on why Ceasar and his brother Bracka reply to him: 2 characters from same family reply to him.

Quote

Takeover in Vir el Mari heights   (1 day, 21 hours ago)
message to everyone in Vir el Mari heights
Ceasar Magdalen of Oritolon has initiated a takeover in Vir el Mari heights. The region currently belongs to Lukon.

=====

Quote

Letter from Bruce Leigh   (1 day, 12 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Why are we TOing this region when the enemy is in Windaria?

Bruce Leigh
Knight of Grentzen

=====

Quote

Report from Ceasar Magdalen   (1 day, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
If we moved to Windaria we would either be slaughtered by superior forces or would leave the door open to Alebad. We will hold our nerve and make the best of the situation.

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

=====

Quote

Letter from Actrial Erendegard   (20 hours, 52 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Well Ceasar you dug the grave because your codpiece exploded every time the word "takeover" entered your mind. You can deal with it.

Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

=====

Quote

Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (17 hours, 43 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Marshal Actrial if we had done as you said Alebad would already be in our enemies hands!

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

=====

Quote

Letter from Bracka Magdalen   (17 hours, 37 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Plus Sir Actrial you went out of your way to destroy peace terms That Prime Minister Cleatus, I'm sure would have secured by now if you hadn't stuck your nose into with insults of the very people he was trying to negotiate with.

Bracka Magdalen
Dame of Flaranyls

=====

Quote

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 hours, 40 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
What is it about people who
- love power and position
- are bad at the game
- argue with both characters

Kevin Lee

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Tom on September 04, 2013, 06:06:31 PM

Notice: Kevin can't post a reply for another 5 or so days since he has received enough warning points on the forum to be muted at this time.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Indirik on September 04, 2013, 06:17:44 PM

As Tom was writing the above note, I was in the process of dropping his warning level...

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Tom on September 04, 2013, 07:03:06 PM

Quote from: Indirik on September 04, 2013, 06:17:44 PM

As Tom was writing the above note, I was in the process of dropping his warning level...

Why? He earned it. Being accused of yet more misbehaviour shouldn't be a way to get rid of warning points.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Indirik on September 04, 2013, 11:48:30 PM

In the interests of timely resolution of the case. Other people shouldn't be penalized and have their case resolution delayed for a week or more because of this person's actions.

If he messes up again, he will get warned and muted again, and then he can argue his case with the Magistrates via PM. Or not, as he chooses.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Kai on September 05, 2013, 06:01:08 AM

Point of inaccuracy, I wasn't in the army at the time, so I don't think I can be marshal. Apart from that I completely agree with what I said and wouldn't change a thing. You give orders for 6 months and then some incompetent wrecks everything in 2 weeks and won't even let you fix it because of his ego. It's so much easier to be an obstinate griefer instead of actually playing the game. You can always hide behind "it's my character haha". If I was playing a game with friends and they played like this I would call them out on it.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Velax on September 05, 2013, 07:01:18 AM

Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" bull!@#$.

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an !@#$%^&, then you're the !@#$%^&."

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Anaris on September 05, 2013, 04:57:13 PM

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 06:01:08 AM

Point of inaccuracy, I wasn't in the army at the time, so I don't think I can be marshal. Apart from that I completely agree with what I said and wouldn't change a thing. You give orders for 6 months and then some incompetent wrecks everything in 2 weeks and won't even let you fix it because of his ego. It's so much easier to be an obstinate griefer instead of actually playing the game. You can always hide behind "it's my character haha". If I was playing a game with friends and they played like this I would call them out on it.

Someone not having as great a strategic acumen as you might wish is not sufficient justification for out-of-character insults, particularly not snide passive-aggressive ones.

In fact, there is nothing in this game which is sufficient justification for that. No matter what he did or said, your posts violated the Social Contract.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:22:45 PM

Quote from: Velax on September 05, 2013, 07:01:18 AM

Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" bull!@#$.

lol I'm not that shy, I would have referred by name if it was in any way unclear.

Quote

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an !@#$%^&, then you're the !@#$%^&."

The first part is (I think) chronologically incorrect; I had my first magistrate case before my first forum warning, or definitely before the more frequent recent ones. Half of my mod points and all my magistrate case were started by the same person, so it's hardly everyone. Besides, only people with titles get attention to their posts without some nice snark.

Quote from: Anaris on September 05, 2013, 04:57:13 PM

Someone not having as great a strategic acumen as you might wish is not sufficient justification for out-of-character insults, particularly not snide passive-aggressive ones.

This wasn't the problem at all. If you haven't read Ketchum's post it's a waste of your time to post anything.
The events were
1. terrible command from Ceasar
2. called him out for terrible orders
3. reply from Ceasar in a very tiresome way with both characters
4. sent OOC message 1 with the 3 bullet points, at the same time posting new orders that aren't bad
5. predictably, Ceasar countermands the orders, obviously because he is mad that I called him bad. Obviously this isn't provable (the beloved IC shield) but as you say, he doesn't have strategic acumen and has had no legitimate strategic contribution for the past 6 months, so I really doubt it was conviction in his strategy. I don't care about this retaliation though.
6. second OOC message with final bullet point
7. Eric always reports me lol <3

Quote

In fact, there is nothing in this game which is sufficient justification for that. No matter what he did or said, your posts violated the Social Contract.

Yeah that's the problem with this game. People who actually put constructive effort into a realm get obstructed and backstabbed, and there's pretty much no way to stop this IC, and every non-insult OOC question is replied to with 'haha my character is !@#$%^& deal with it'. What can you even do? At some point you insult them OOC and they dick you over with the magistrates. And then you leave the game and leave everyone to their broken realms. Furthermore your absolutist stance is just unproductive. Some of the play in realms borders on griefing, which would go against "fair play", but it's practically impossible to prove, so it gets a free pass.

--

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum? The reasons why I would like that are pretty much explained by these posts:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5032.msg118610.html#msg118610 (dominance of users with titles)
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4969.msg117198.html#msg117198 (insularity of subforums)

I can understand why people don't come here though. Most of the cases are very petty.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Anaris on September 05, 2013, 07:40:52 PM

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:22:45 PM

This wasn't the problem at all. If you haven't read Ketchum's post it's a waste of your time to post anything.

What led to your OOC post is irrelevant. As I said, there is no acceptable justification for insulting another player.

Quote

Yeah that's the problem with this game. People who actually put constructive effort into a realm get obstructed and backstabbed, and there's pretty much no way to stop this IC, and every non-insult OOC question is replied to with 'haha my character is !@#$%^& deal with it'. What can you even do? At some point you insult them OOC and they dick you over with the magistrates. And then you leave the game and leave everyone to their broken realms. Furthermore your absolutist stance is just unproductive. Some of the play in realms borders on griefing, which would go against "fair play", but it's practically impossible to prove, so it gets a free pass.

If you think that others are breaking the Social Contract, even with thin evidence, then by all means report it. If there is a character in your realm who is being rude in-character, then get rid of him in-character. If you cannot get rid of him, then change the realm so that you can (replace Judge, change laws, whatever is needed). If you cannot do that, then clearly the realm approves of his rudeness, so it's probably better for you to leave the realm.

But there is no acceptable justification for you resorting to OOC insults, no matter how frustrated you may get.

Quote

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum? The reasons why I would like that are pretty much explained by these posts:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5032.msg118610.html#msg118610 (dominance of users with titles)

Do you understand what the "titles" mean? They're purely a method of indicating forum users with differing amounts of total posts. So...yes, there are more posts by people whose "titles" are higher. That's how they get those "titles." And once someone new starts posting more frequently, they, too, will have a "title".

Quote

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4969.msg117198.html#msg117198 (insularity of subforums)

Different people want to read about different things. That's part of the point of a forum over an email list: people who aren't interested in this, that, or the other thing can just not go to those subforums, and be happier and less frustrated for it.

The people who post here are, by and large, the forum users who are interested in participating in BattleMaster's public rules-enforcement mechanism. People who aren't interested...don't post here. Would you rather force everyone to read the Magistrates' subforum, and deal with all the frustration and pettiness that exists here?

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:48:06 PM

Your spam about irrelevance is just covering yourself. Surely you have to admit that you shouldn't talk about a case if you haven't got at least a decent understanding of events. You basically admitted to not reading the thread, and jumping straight into your judgement.

--

Did you even read that second post? Yes I want everyone to see how inane this subforum is (secret ballot by a council with no summary of judgement, worst legal system ever), and how it is dominated by people (like you)(which I specify, or I'll probably be accused of being passive aggressive) who:

Quote from: Valast on September 01, 2013, 11:05:31 PM

When I read your posts...they sound as if you know everything...most times very critical of what you are commenting on.

... every time you pick apart a post you sound like lawyers...

--

And really this is a very soft insult. If I told someone OOC that they love power and position, are bad at the game, reply with both characters unnecessarily, obstruct IC out of spite, and that I hate the way they play, what would be the problem with that? I don't see why you should be able to get around this by covering your criticism in flowers.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: egamma on September 05, 2013, 08:46:36 PM

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:22:45 PM

The first part is (I think) chronologically incorrect; I had my first magistrate case before my first forum warning, or definitely before the more frequent recent ones. Half of my mod points and all my magistrate case were started by the same person, so it's hardly everyone. Besides, only people with titles get attention to their posts without some nice snark.

Although I don't see the bearing on the case, I would like to point out that you are not the only person I have reported to magistrates/titans, and most of the time someone else has reported your posts to the magistrates; I'm just the first one to log on after the report is made, basically.

And, I didn't have a problem with your character being rude and disrespectful, in character. I think of Actrial is a grouchy old man, and that's fine; I didn't even have a problem with Actrial saying "Kill yourself" to Gellin. But going OOC means that you are intentionally targeting the player as the target of your insult.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Tom on September 05, 2013, 09:00:44 PM

I fail to see how any part of this last exchange is relevant to the case at hand.

There are very strict rules on this sub-forum. Anything that doesn't relate to the case does not belong here.


The question at hand is a very simple one:

Did the two messages quoted break the rule that says "No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players." or did they not?


Everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Buffalkill on September 05, 2013, 10:54:29 PM

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:22:45 PM

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum?

IMHO, I don't see the msgs as insulting or passive-aggressive. I see a player being critical and expressing frustration with a team mate. If you can't tell your team mate that you're pissed off at him, or that he's doing a piss-poor job, then it turns into passive aggression, like disregarding orders, ignoring messages, sarcasm, IC niggling, etc. From what little I've seen, there's nothing "passive" about Kai.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Indirik on September 05, 2013, 11:48:36 PM

Quote from: Buffalkill on September 05, 2013, 10:54:29 PM

IMHO, I don't see the msgs as insulting or passive-aggressive. I see a player being critical and expressing frustration with a team mate. If you can't tell your team mate that you're pissed off at him, or that he's doing a piss-poor job, then it turns into passive aggression, like disregarding orders, ignoring messages, sarcasm, IC niggling, etc. From what little I've seen, there's nothing "passive" about Kai.

You can tell people that you're frustrated with them, or even pissed off at them, without being insulting, passive-aggressive, or calling them incompetent. Even saying something like "It really pisses me off when you do stuff like that, I wish you would stop it." isn't against the social contract. There really is a difference between criticism and insult. IMO those two messages, in the contest they were given, is clearly intended to be insulting/belittling toward the player.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Buffalkill on September 06, 2013, 12:29:20 AM

Quote from: Indirik on September 05, 2013, 11:48:36 PM

You can tell people that you're frustrated with them, or even pissed off at them, without being insulting, passive-aggressive, or calling them incompetent. Even saying something like "It really pisses me off when you do stuff like that, I wish you would stop it." isn't against the social contract. There really is a difference between criticism and insult. IMO those two messages, in the contest they were given, is clearly intended to be insulting/belittling toward the player.

There's definitely a kinder way to say it. Saying that he's terrible at the game might have crossed the line. Still, it seems like something that could be dealt with at the realm level.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Indirik on September 06, 2013, 12:58:07 AM

I believe that, between the two OOCs that Kai sent, someone tried to deal with it IG. Which is why Kai sent the second OOC. Perhaps someone in the realm would care to post all three of the relevant OOC messages in order, so the entire context can be seen.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: egamma on September 06, 2013, 01:39:12 AM

There's actually a turn in between the messages; I'll remove all automatically generated reports. I will ask that players in Lukon and Outer Tilog avert their eyes  8)

Quote

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
What is it about people who
- love power and position
- are bad at the game
- argue with both characters
Kevin Lee

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Next turn:
VEMH 2 turn move to Windaria
Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (15 recipients)
Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (just in)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Next turn:
VEMH 2 turn move to Windaria

Actrial Erendegard
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
VEMH: 2 turn move to Windaria, pass it on to Aren
Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Line settings:
Inf: FDL
Arch: FDL
Cav: RAW
Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Ash Ketchum   (2 days, 18 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Aren friends,

The order for today and the unit setting.

=====
Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (14 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
VEMH: 2 turn move to Windaria, pass it on to Aren

Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

=====
Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (13 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Line settings:
Inf: FDL
Arch: FDL
Cav: RAW

Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon
Ash Ketchum
Royal of Oritolon
Ambassador of Oritolon
Knight of Grentzen

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Report from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Scout Report (Windaria): Scribe Note
Scout Report (Rola Sierrie): Scribe Note
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Letter from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
I am now travelling to Windaria, to arrive in 2 turns. Use delay arrival.
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Out-of-Character from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Mature Kevin, very mature of you. Keep your insults in game please.
Wade Harlaine

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Orders from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Ignore all orders of Marshal Actrial that are given realm wide he has no authority to issue such orders and should learn the chain of command, He is not I repeat not carrying out the wishes of his General which is his duty. If he wishes to be General then he should run for the position as I have previously stated.

Do not move to Windaria unless you want your men to be slaughtered, Those in the Heights should continue with the TO until further notice. Everyone else in the south gather in Grentzen .

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Report from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Members of Aren I respectfully ask you to remain with us in the heights.

Orders from Ceasar Magdalen
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Ignore all orders of Marshal Actrial that are given realm wide he has no authority to issue such orders and should learn the chain of command, He is not I repeat not carrying out the wishes of his General which is his duty. If he wishes to be General then he should run for the position as I have previously stated.

Do not move to Windaria unless you want your men to be slaughtered, Those in the Heights should continue with the TO until further notice. Everyone else in the south gather in Grentzen .

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Takeover Activity   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
message to everyone in Vir el Mari heights
Soldiers of Bracka Magdalen have been patrolling the streets and attacking peasants critical of the regime change.
The locals now fear Oritolon somewhat more. There is a little bit less sympathy for Oritolon now.

Letter from Drognor Noble   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
I have cancelled my movement towards VEH
Drognor Noble
Knight of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Thank you Sir Drognor, your loyalty and respect for the chain of command should serve as an example to those that should no better.

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Out-of-Character from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
previous message should have been a letter.
Wade Harlaine

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Eadwulf Osha   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Aren will stay put until Oritolon gets her head straight, but it's the wrong time for messing about.

You'd better have an ace in the hole over in Iglavik whilst we're sat here doing this. Vir el Mari isn't worth a fig if it means letting the northern scum carve into Oritolon's belly.
Eadwulf Osha
Warlord of Aren
Count of Warmanoras
Marshal of the Irdalni Prowlers

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal:  Trust medal Fun medal] | [vulgarity]

Report from Malice Osha   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Scribe Note Scout Report (Maira Merani)
Scribe Note Scout Report (Bode Batura)

Lukon's running a cheeky takeover over in Maira Merani.
Malice Osha
Khan of Aren
Royal of Aren
Duke of Alowca
Margrave of Alowca

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal:  Trust medal Fun medal] | [vulgarity]

Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
If they move to Iglavik we will loot surrounding regions, They are too far ahead to catch up and had a good head start after Alebad, If Actrial had is way we would have lost Alebad already, his ideas would have put our forces nowhere near Alebad when it was threatened he thinks 9k militia is enough to take on 23k mobile with siege engines. Sometimes you just have to hold your nerve. They want us to go the Windaria way so they can either slaughter us in open ground or turn back to Alebad.

Thank you for your support Warlord Eadwulf.

Respectfully Yours
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Request from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Grand Justiciar May Ketchum,

I second that request.

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Letter from Johan Jaron   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
We'd appreciate if Oritolon sorts out its military command before sending out conflicting orders to Aren. Best keep conflict in the war room in the war room. Also I would recommend a misdirection, maybe just to gauge their response.

Best Regards,
Johan Jaron
Lawgiver of Aren
Baron of Irdalni

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal:  Trust medal Fun medal] | [vulgarity]

Report from Johan Jaron   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)

Scout Report (Windaria): Scribe Note
Johan Jaron
Lawgiver of Aren
Baron of Irdalni

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal:  Trust medal Fun medal] | [vulgarity]

Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
I appreciate your annoyance but Sir Actrial is a law unto himself at the moment simply ignore his requests in future, He has been reported to our legal authorities for his actions not just to myself but others.

Respectfully Yours
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Request from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
If some of you have spare hours feel free to misdirect to Windaria but keep up the TO work.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Report from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Sir Thorbjorn Blackmore, Knight of Iglavik,

This is the message you should be aware of about unconditional surrender!

Orders from Cathal Dubhaine   (7 days, 22 hours ago)
Message sent to the Generals of Colonies (4 recipients)
General Ceasar,

Oritolon has until daybreak to tender its unconditional surrender, disband all military forces stationed in Alebad and publicly acknowledge the authority of Empress Valakyrie over all its territories and dominions.
Sir Cathal Dubhaine
General of Lukon
Knight of Corali Forest
Marshal of the Army of the Black Ravens

  [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore a>] | [userdetails] | [give medal:   ] | [vulgarity]
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
- and then throw a tantrum while refusing to admit they are terrible at the game
Kevin Lee

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Letter from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
There is no ace in Iglavik, Caesar has led everyone to VEMH because he gets a lump in his pants whenever someone says the word "takeover". If Lukon are smart they will move Iglavik->Sovonoval->Oritolon and that will be the end of it.
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Ketchum on September 06, 2013, 03:25:54 AM

Quote from: Tom on September 05, 2013, 09:00:44 PM

I fail to see how any part of this last exchange is relevant to the case at hand.

There are very strict rules on this sub-forum. Anything that doesn't relate to the case does not belong here.


The question at hand is a very simple one:

Did the two messages quoted break the rule that says "No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players." or did they not?


Everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Erm... I thought we want to understand the reason why Actrial wrote OOC and what is the motivation, the things that led to Actrial reply in OOC, instead of IC. There should be an issue root cause why Actrial say these OOC messages. As Velax posted asking for the information, that is why I posted the messages exchange between them.

To keep it on topic. Refer the messages where Ceasar and Bracka Magdalen reply to Actrial IC and Actrial(from what we see of his player) probably curious about why two same family characters arguing with only one of his character.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Penchant on September 06, 2013, 05:27:53 AM

Quote from: Ketchum on September 06, 2013, 03:25:54 AM

Erm... I thought we want to understand the reason why Actrial wrote OOC and what is the motivation, the things that led to Actrial reply in OOC, instead of IC. There should be an issue root cause why Actrial say these OOC messages. As Velax posted asking for the information, that is why I posted the messages exchange between them.

To keep it on topic. Refer the messages where Ceasar and Bracka Magdalen reply to Actrial IC and Actrial(from what we see of his player) probably curious about why two same family characters arguing with only one of his character.

Bracka never says a thing, which I checked, in case I was simply being blind, through searching the entire page with Ctrl+F and Bracka. I do see both Actrial and Axis Excelsior (the same family) arguing against Ceasar though.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Ketchum on September 06, 2013, 05:31:47 AM

Quote from: Penchant on September 06, 2013, 05:27:53 AM

Bracka never says a thing, which I checked, in case I was simply being blind, through searching the entire page with Ctrl+F and Bracka. I do see both Actrial and Axis Excelsior (the same family) arguing against Ceasar though.

See my earlier post on page no.1, I requote below for your reference. I think we may need draw a chronology of events that led to this OOC messages.

=====

Quote

Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (17 hours, 43 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Marshal Actrial if we had done as you said Alebad would already be in our enemies hands!

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

=====

Quote

Letter from Bracka Magdalen   (17 hours, 37 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Plus Sir Actrial you went out of your way to destroy peace terms That Prime Minister Cleatus, I'm sure would have secured by now if you hadn't stuck your nose into with insults of the very people he was trying to negotiate with.

Bracka Magdalen
Dame of Flaranyls

=====

Quote

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 hours, 40 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
What is it about people who
- love power and position
- are bad at the game
- argue with both characters

Kevin Lee

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Penchant on September 06, 2013, 06:55:48 AM

Quote from: Ketchum on September 06, 2013, 05:31:47 AM

See my earlier post on page no.1, I requote below for your reference. I think we may need draw a chronology of events that led to this OOC messages.

Yeah I wasn't thinking there, my bad. Thanks for the requote. Ok, well its certainly possible it was an accident on the part of the player of  Magdalen family as I see it happen in Arcaea with people accidentally responding with the wrong character. If he was truly curious about the two family members fighting his one, then it would make sense to ask the player about it, not say the player sucks at the game, assume (seemingly meant as an insult) he loves power and position, and then imply disagreement with the fact he argued with both characters.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Tom on September 06, 2013, 10:23:54 AM

Quote from: Ketchum on September 06, 2013, 03:25:54 AM

Erm... I thought we want to understand the reason why Actrial wrote OOC and what is the motivation,

No, we don't. Why would we? If he is insulting and breaking the Social Contract, does it matter why he does it? No, it doesn't. The Social Contract is absolute. It says "Do not insult or harass other players", and not "don't insult others unless you think you have a good reason".

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Tom on September 06, 2013, 10:25:56 AM

Quote from: Ketchum on September 06, 2013, 05:31:47 AM

I think we may need draw a chronology of events that led to this OOC messages.

So?

It doesn't matter.


There is absolutely no justification for breaking the Social Contract. All this is just side-tracking the actual issue. Stop arguing as if you were in a court of law, you aren't.

Did he break the Social Contract? Yes or no. That is the ONLY thing that needs answering, everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Lavigna on September 06, 2013, 02:05:41 PM

If Actrial was provoked to write those OOC messages then that is another case and it should be raised by him and no other and  of course be judged individually.

His actions cannot be justified just because there may be a motivation behind them and it is not the job of Magistrates to play detectives and search behind the scenes. The one who feels offended ends ups here and claims his right for justice. It's pretty simple.

If someone defends himself with offense then he automatically becomes an offender himself.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Eirikr on September 06, 2013, 06:29:55 PM

Quote from: vonGenf on September 06, 2013, 01:48:50 PM

I'm not sure that voting is particularly helpful to the debate.......

I'm also quite sure it's the job of the Magistrates to do that, not general forum users regardless of rank (except Tom, of course).

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: steelabjur@aol.com on September 06, 2013, 07:12:14 PM

Speaking as a person who isn't a "mods camping this subforum" I think this is a pretty open and shut case. As Tom pointed out, the rules are clear and it's obvious that his intent was to insult another player. In fact I'd go so far as to say that he has used this case as a platform to continue to attack said player and others and that he sees no issues with his actions:

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 06:01:08 AM

Point of inaccuracy, I wasn't in the army at the time, so I don't think I can be marshal. Apart from that I completely agree with what I said and wouldn't change a thing. You give orders for 6 months and then some incompetent wrecks everything in 2 weeks and won't even let you fix it because of his ego.

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:22:45 PM

This wasn't the problem at all. If you haven't read Ketchum's post it's a waste of your time to post anything.
The events were
1. terrible command from Ceasar
2. called him out for terrible orders
3. reply from Ceasar in a very tiresome way with both characters
4. sent OOC message 1 with the 3 bullet points, at the same time posting new orders that aren't bad
5. predictably, Ceasar countermands the orders, obviously because he is mad that I called him bad. Obviously this isn't provable (the beloved IC shield) but as you say, he doesn't have strategic acumen and has had no legitimate strategic contribution for the past 6 months, so I really doubt it was conviction in his strategy. I don't care about this retaliation though.
6. second OOC message with final bullet point
7. Eric always reports me lol <3

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:22:45 PM

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum? The reasons why I would like that are pretty much explained by these posts:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5032.msg118610.html#msg118610 (dominance of users with titles)
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4969.msg117198.html#msg117198 (insularity of subforums)

I can understand why people don't come here though. Most of the cases are very petty.

Quote from: Kai on September 05, 2013, 07:48:06 PM

Your spam about irrelevance is just covering yourself. Surely you have to admit that you shouldn't talk about a case if you haven't got at least a decent understanding of events. You basically admitted to not reading the thread, and jumping straight into your judgement.

--

Did you even read that second post? Yes I want everyone to see how inane this subforum is (secret ballot by a council with no summary of judgement, worst legal system ever), and how it is dominated by people (like you)(which I specify, or I'll probably be accused of being passive aggressive) who:

I don't know if it is proper for me to suggest this, but I recommend that the Magistrates take into consideration the attitude he has displayed in this thread to yourselves and his fellow players when deciding sentencing.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Geronus on September 07, 2013, 06:11:20 PM

Tom is absolutely right. The only item of any relevance to this case raised so far is the original complaint, which is unequivocally a violation of the Social Contract. Nothing anyone else has said has any bearing on that.

Please keep the rest of your posts to the subject at hand. I will likely delete anything off topic from this point forward.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Indirik on September 07, 2013, 09:22:28 PM

Magistrates case threads are not the proper place for theoretical discussions and "what if" inquiries. There is a Q&A board for that. And there's already a thread for this case there.

Title: Re: OOC comments insulting another player
Post by: Lefanis on September 10, 2013, 07:08:00 PM

A verdict has been reached, and IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict is:

Quote

"After consideration, the Magistrates find the defendant Guilty of violating the Social Contract. For reference, the Contract states: "Do not insult or harass other players." The OOC messages quoted in the complaint are clearly insulting and directed at the player of the Magdalen family. There are no exceptions to the Social Contract, and its terms are not open to debate. Frustration is not an excuse for behaving badly. It is acceptable to disagree with a character's actions. It is acceptable to start a conflict with characters whom your own do not agree with. It is even acceptable to insult those characters in-game, with as much or as little vitriol as desired. The moment the insults cross the line into OOC mediums however, the Social Contract has been violated. In light of the defendant's clear refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing and his continued attitude of derision toward the player of the Magdalen family, the Magistrates have decided on a 3-day lock.

Magistrates voted 5-0 in favor of a guilty verdict, unanimously agreeing on a three day lock.

This thread will remain open for any questions regarding the case, and off topic remarks will be strictly moderated.