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BattleMaster => Case Archives => Questions & Answers => Topic started by: OFaolain on January 11, 2014, 01:16:33 AM
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I'll start this off by saying this is an IR question. I have heard that it's okay to offer gold to people for recruiting a unit type you want (100 extra gold to everyone who recruits infantry, for instance); does the same thing apply to the tournament attendance IR? That is, can someone offer gold to people who *don't* attend the tournament; say they want to boycott it for political reasons, or they have a war to fight or some such. Is incentivizing people not to exercise their IR a violation of the IR?
Also: is it an IR violation to complain about people going to a tournament if you don't ask/tell people not to go beforehand?
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My personal position is that both scenarios you have outlined are not allowed. Just let people go to the tournament. If you don't want to, that's fine. If you want to explain your reasons why you're not going, that's fine. But trying to incentivize people to not go is not fine.
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Personal opinion - I wouldn't have thought that it's an IR violation to offer gold for someone not to attend a tournament. They've still got the choice of whether they want to pocket some gold or to attend the tournament. You're not forcing them to take either choice.
That being said, I'd personally advise just leaving the tournament subject alone. Let people enjoy them (or not) without complicating matters. As is normally said, if you're trying to work a way around an IR you're probably going against the spirit of the IR.
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All I did is offer those who want to skip the tournament a reward and tried to express my feelings about what I think of people who want to tell me they "are honoring our ancestors by demonstrating our skills" in a torunament while our very realm is endangered! I agree that I overdid it a bit by saying "battering wooden swords against each others heads or grooming your favourite horse for the big day". Still nothing would have happened if I would have said it to my "cousin" in a RP.
If it is forbidden in this game to offer rewards than I really dont know who the !@#$ understood something wrong!
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The problem is that even the mere suggestion of not attending can be interpreted as an order depending on who sent the letter. If a Knight suggested to nobles that they not go to the tournament and offered to give them gold instead, some might take it and some might not, but few would feel obligated.
Now, same scenario with a King instead. How many will feel obligated to listen to the king?
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If it is forbidden in this game to offer rewards than I really dont know who the !@#$ understood something wrong!
How should someone in a position of power treat these rights? By acknowledging and moving on. Almost all long-winded texts are just sophisticated attempts to circumvent them. The basic rule is: Just shut up and stay 100 feet away from any and all inalienable rights, no matter how well-meaning you are.
From the Inalienable Rights wiki page (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Inalienable_Rights).
Don't suggest people not go to tournaments. Don't complain about people going to tournaments.
I'm not 100% sure about offering money for not going to tournaments; I'm inclined to say if it's framed as a reward for "being good" and staying home from the tournament, that's Bad, but if it's framed as being money for those who will be here, and thus be doing stuff that requires money, that's OK.
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All I did is offer those who want to skip the tournament a reward and tried to express my feelings about what I think of people who want to tell me they "are honoring our ancestors by demonstrating our skills" in a torunament while our very realm is endangered!
IR violation right there, clear as day, no doubt about it. What Anaris posted is spot on.
Basically, if you can do the same thing without using the word "tournament" or any synonym or descriptive term, you're good. So if you offer money to people who need to recruit a new unit because they lost theirs - fine. If that means people who are at the tournament at that time can't take the offer - too bad.
But as soon as "tournament" enters your reason, you're breaking an IR.
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This is by far the most stupid rule I ever heard of.... honestly. I just cant understand why it is forbidden to bribe others or offer rewards. I thought this game had a somehow more realistic view. As far as I unerstood the "goal" of this game is to achieve power and write cool RPs. Power = Gold. And the guy who tried to report me knows a big deal about how great it is to have lots of gold.
I had a VERY high opinion of this sgame but this... All I tried is to rally our troops by offering them rewards and telling them what my personal opinion (and not only mine) is. If I get punished for this, so be it, I regret nothing! But I learned that there are some people around who must be tpuched with velvet gloves unless I want to start a shtstorm.
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I just cant understand why it is forbidden to bribe others or offer rewards.
In general, it's not.
When it comes to the IR—tournaments, activity, class, and unit type—it is forbidden to attempt to influence people's decisions from a position of power. Since power comes in many forms, that means it's not just aimed at rulers and council members, but anyone who attempts to exert influence in the realm.
The IR about tournaments is primarily to ensure that all players, no matter their realm or level of play, have an opportunity to interact with players outside their own realms. Most of the rest of the time, players who aren't in multinational guilds or in council positions do not get that opportunity.
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Finaly the tournament is over and I hope you very much enjoyed battering wooden swords against each others heads or grooming your favourite horse for the big day while others were trying to secure the peace in the north against enemies of our theocracy.
I hope I dont have to remind you that a small realm, in a rather difficult strategic position, like XXX have to rely on strong allies. Please make haste my Brothers and Sisters! Not only XXX reputation is at stake if we stay away much longer! XXX and XXX have reached a critical size and they dont have too much sympathy towards our realm.
Is this really so offending.......?
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and I gave an order:
Rally in AXXX!
XXX forces are waiting in XXX! The first ferry to arrive will be rewarded with 250 golden coins!
I learned too late about this game but if this is really forbidden... screw this game. I paid enough for M&F and hope I can be part of building a community where real politcs are made without interesting rules like that. These rules are neccessary to satisfy some people, I fully understand that! I still hope that everybody will be free one day to ignore what he dont wants (especialy if you can just click it away). Im sorry but if I get mobbed out by someone who report me for this I dont know if I want to continue since there is allways a risk that someone like that gets a position where decisions have to be made.
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You haven't been reported, Ohzen. OFaolain was asking a question about whether what you did was against the rules. This isn't an official case. If you did get reported, and a case opened against you, there's a good possibility your punishment would be...a warning not to do it again.
If you did it again after being warned, though, you'd probably get the book thrown at you (as it should be).
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It seems like it is forbidden to tell others his opinion because it could cause too many troubles for a game like this to survive. In the future I will hold my tongue... I like this game too much to let others minimize my fun. I still think that I did nothing wrong by telling those who attended the tournament that there wont be a tournament anymore if they dont help defend our realm. and rewards await them instead of a lost entry fee. If something like this offends the very rules of the game... I dont know why Im here. Everybody should be free to say what he wants... just like everybody should be free to ignore what he dont wants. I never even played with the thought of giving penalties to them... but if my words were "offending" I want to wish you all good luck in the future and hope you will sht rainbows as bright as a unicorns tail.
In the country I was raised in every able man was forced to attend military service. This is where I learned to ignore orders... I guess most of you did not had the pleasure to make this wonderful experience.
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Again, for almost everything, your character is free to say whatever he wants. The only exceptions are the Inalienable Rights.
And you may not understand it, or even believe it, but for a lot of people, when someone in a position of influence says something like, "You guys who went to the tournament are making trouble for the realm!", they don't ignore it. They take it to heart, and they start thinking, "Well, I shouldn't go to the tournament if it might have some adverse effect on the realm, even if it's something I want to do..."
Just saying, "Well, people should man up and ignore people saying stuff they don't want to do" isn't helpful, because it ignores basic realities of humans in societies of any type.
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"Well, people should man up and ignore people saying stuff they don't want to do" isn't helpful, because it ignores basic realities of humans in societies of any type.
I tend to forget that I am surrounded by a bunch of....
I feel a bit sorry right now... I kinda overestimated the poeple who play this game. Wont happen again, important lesson learned!
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Just to add some spice... the guy who complained about my behaviour is by far the laziest member of our community who never tried to get involved in our matters by a bit but only searched for ways to slander the names of his realm mates. We never said something against him sitting in the academy training for the next tournament he can brag about. But when I said something against the lack of morale in our realm he was the first (and only) one to write a letter! (the first one he wrote for months...) Most of the inhabitants of our realm understood my grief and sorrow and wouldnt have dared to say a word against it even though I was obvioulsy violating some rules that were made for the ones who dont know how to ignore things they dont want to hear.
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IR violation right there, clear as day, no doubt about it. What Anaris posted is spot on.
Basically, if you can do the same thing without using the word "tournament" or any synonym or descriptive term, you're good. So if you offer money to people who need to recruit a new unit because they lost theirs - fine. If that means people who are at the tournament at that time can't take the offer - too bad.
But as soon as "tournament" enters your reason, you're breaking an IR.
So when he says "250 gold to the first person to reach the rally point" then that's 100% fine (right?), but saying "250 gold to each person who doesn't go to the tournament" would violate the IR.
In a similar vein, while attending a tournament is an IR, is holding a tournament an IR? That is, could the lord of a city be accosted for *holding* the tournament at a bad time?
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I am sorry to say this but, in my case, the IR bullsht is the stupidesst thing ive ever heard of! A game that tries to be close to reality is trying to prevent the nerds who play this game from a proper dose of REAL reality? People get bribed and intimidated! At least BM gave us an opportunity to not let a facsist who is threatening those he swore to protect let gain power and influence.
Sorry... you guys are trying to be like the useless tribunal of Den Haag. Pointing your fingers at bad dictators but at the same time accepting the ways the world goes round and round.
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You're comparing a few rules in BM to The Hague trials? Really? It might be time you took a few dozen steps back and re-evaluated things, because you're obviously way too invested here.
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FUN & FUNdamentalism...
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This is just a game, folks. The only rule here is that people is free to go to the tournaments. You don't like it? Well, I don't like to work, but I have to.
Your realm will not die because of it. And if your realm dies, start a new one. This is not a game based in donations. This is not a game to "win". Live with that. Also, tournaments are for everyone. It's not just your people going to it... it's to your enemies as well. If everyone begin to pay or order the people to avoid tournaments, in some time we will not have tournaments anymore.
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This had to be the most absurd, over the top, overreaction i have ever seen to a simple "don't do this" that i have ever seen. Someone definitely needs to man up here. But its not the guy that asked the first question.
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This had to be the most absurd, over the top, overreaction i have ever seen to a simple "don't do this" that i have ever seen. Someone definitely needs to man up here. But its not the guy that asked the first question.
I dunno; I still think the ragequitting en masse of the Fontan Lions after their leader (or, possibly, sole player) was given a private warning from the Titans (not to threaten other people with the Titans) holds that crown.
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So when he says "250 gold to the first person to reach the rally point" then that's 100% fine (right?), but saying "250 gold to each person who doesn't go to the tournament" would violate the IR.
Correct.
In a similar vein, while attending a tournament is an IR, is holding a tournament an IR? That is, could the lord of a city be accosted for *holding* the tournament at a bad time?
No, it isn't, else it would be on the list. People who can hold tournaments can be assumed to be powerful and influencial enough to fight their battles.
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No, it isn't, else it would be on the list. People who can hold tournaments can be assumed to be powerful and influencial enough to fight their battles.
Awesome, thanks Tom.
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and I gave an order:
Rally in AXXX!
XXX forces are waiting in XXX! The first ferry to arrive will be rewarded with 250 golden coins!
I learned too late about this game but if this is really forbidden... screw this game. I paid enough for M&F and hope I can be part of building a community where real politcs are made without interesting rules like that. These rules are neccessary to satisfy some people, I fully understand that! I still hope that everybody will be free one day to ignore what he dont wants (especialy if you can just click it away). Im sorry but if I get mobbed out by someone who report me for this I dont know if I want to continue since there is allways a risk that someone like that gets a position where decisions have to be made.
Seems off-topic to me, but I don't even see this as being a violation of any of the IR, or any other rule. It'd be a stretch to invoke the activity IR, unless there's more to the story than what is shared. Heck, how did Tom decide which realm would bite the dust in the last BT invasion? "Last ruler to reply will see his realm's ass kicked", pretty much... Doesn't get any harsher than that.
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This is Tom's game. We play by Tom's rules. If you don't like the rules, discuss an alternative. (Calling them "bull!@#$" is not discussion.) If you fail, you can always still leave the game.
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Seems off-topic to me, but I don't even see this as being a violation of any of the IR, or any other rule.
From Tom's reply above, this is indeed perfectly fine.
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I'm not 100% sure about offering money for not going to tournaments; I'm inclined to say if it's framed as a reward for "being good" and staying home from the tournament, that's Bad, but if it's framed as being money for those who will be here, and thus be doing stuff that requires money, that's OK.
I would agree with this interpretation. Basically, just say "those who are available to recruit/available for the battlefield" will get gold. In one of my realms, people get gold for how many battles they fight in a campaign, when it is time to refit. It's the same as the old chestnut: you can play as often or as little as you like, but if you want more, you will need to commit more, and with more, comes more responsibility (regarding council and military positions).
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In one of my realms, people get gold for how many battles they fight in a campaign, when it is time to refit. It's the same as the old chestnut: you can play as often or as little as you like, but if you want more, you will need to commit more, and with more, comes more responsibility (regarding council and military positions).
That's really good actually; if I ever have a General character with sufficient income I might steal that.
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That's really good actually; if I ever have a General character with sufficient income I might steal that.
The General often also receives gold, and the Lords and Dukes are happy to do the funding.
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Heck, how did Tom decide which realm would bite the dust in the last BT invasion? "Last ruler to reply will see his realm's ass kicked", pretty much... Doesn't get any harsher than that.
Please don't mix up facts and fiction. That whole storyline was a ruse the whole time, an experiment in checking if the Daimon lords can make the rulers do their bidding or if the humans would band together, talk among each other first and come up with a trick of their own, such as "ok, let's ALL not reply at all".
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Please don't mix up facts and fiction. That whole storyline was a ruse the whole time, an experiment in checking if the Daimon lords can make the rulers do their bidding or if the humans would band together, talk among each other first and come up with a trick of their own, such as "ok, let's ALL not reply at all".
To be honest, if someone were to say something in game that violated the IR, and would come out after the fact saying "it wasn't for real, it was just a ruse to see how they'd react"; I'm quite sure you would classify this into the "Harshest Punishment" category of the IR.
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Please don't mix up facts and fiction. That whole storyline was a ruse the whole time, an experiment in checking if the Daimon lords can make the rulers do their bidding or if the humans would band together, talk among each other first and come up with a trick of their own, such as "ok, let's ALL not reply at all".
Really? I seem to recall you saying, after the fact, that you hadn't considered the possibility of nobody replying until after the ultimatum was sent. I might recall incorrectly, though.
Also, you threatened to attack the last guy to respond. And you did. How is it a ruse if you did exactly what you threatened to do?
In any case, with hindsight, I would have consulted with Enweil first and then not replied, but I think it's pretty obvious at least one realm would have replied in any case. The animosity between all of the realms was no secret.