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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Gustav Kuriga on March 08, 2014, 05:23:06 PM

Title: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 08, 2014, 05:23:06 PM
Here are the noble densities for each realm relative to number of regions.

                           Nobles          Regions        Density
Morek                     34                 34               1.0
Barca                     40                 20               2.0
Fissoa                     27                 18               1.5
Astrum                   17                 11               1.55
D'Hara                    24                 16               1.5
Corsanctum            15                 12               1.25
Asylon                    44                 26               1.69
Luria Nova              35                 27               1.30
Niselur                   27                 15                1.8
Swordfell                18                 10               1.8

Something I found very very interesting. Take it for what you will. By the way, the number of nobles from new families in Barca at least is up from three weeks ago. We had 37 nobles then.  We've been on an upward trend in number of nobles for a while now.
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: JeVondair on March 08, 2014, 05:33:52 PM
It will be interesting to see how these shift in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Vita` on March 08, 2014, 07:38:44 PM
Luria Nova had around 35 a few weeks back. I think Asylon was the same. I clearly remember Morek, LN, Asylon being with 2-5 nobles of each other when I looked. And indeed, interesting it shall be. I can't wait for a vibrant eastern dwilight choke full of nobles with ambition, revenge, faith, and all those other good characteristics that lead to wars. :)

EDIT: Disregard the above. Apparently I misread that data by confusing regions for nobles. :P
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Wolfang on March 08, 2014, 08:05:42 PM
Yeah Barca has been getting new nobles even post-monster invasion. Too bad we don't have enough gold :(
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 08, 2014, 09:32:55 PM
Here are the noble densities for each realm relative to number of regions.

                           Nobles          Regions        Density
Morek                     34                 34               1.0
Barca                     40                 20               2.0
Fissoa                     27                 18               1.5
Astrum                   17                 11               1.55
D'Hara                    24                 16               1.5
Corsanctum            15                 12               1.25
Asylon                    44                 26               1.69
Luria Nova              35                 27               1.30
Niselur                   27                 15                1.8
Swordfell                18                 10               1.8
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on March 09, 2014, 01:41:33 PM
So what is everyones' thoughts, and perhaps someone else could do this for each continent?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: OFaolain on March 09, 2014, 02:28:29 PM
Assuming we (Corsanctum) don't get conquered by nomads, if Astrum broke and immigrated to us we would be just peachy on nobles/region.  On a related note, damn Morek has a lot of land.  The Golden Horde of Darfix should relieve them of some, I hear Nifel peninsula is beautiful this time of year. :P
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eduardo Almighty on March 09, 2014, 08:03:34 PM
We've been on the run
Driving in the sun
Looking out for number one
Corsanctum here we come
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: OFaolain on March 10, 2014, 02:06:55 AM
We've been on the run
Driving in the sun
Looking out for number one
Corsanctum here we come


Much talk do I hear but no masts on the horizon do I see.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: sharkattack on March 10, 2014, 03:29:26 AM
Much talk do I hear but no masts on the horizon do I see.

Duh, we got stealth ships yo.
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Galvez on March 12, 2014, 10:08:00 PM
Yeah Barca has been getting new nobles even post-monster invasion. Too bad we don't have enough gold :(
It may seem like that one the surface.  ;)
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Bjarnson on March 18, 2014, 03:43:11 AM
About noble density per realm, it can quickly change.

I will post what I posted in the Asylonthread as I think it kinda touches the subject here aswell.


Did anyone watch the latest episodes of History Channels Vikings?
Some scenes there was VERY fitting for Asylons current fate.

This link is to the full episode that  found on youtube, to avoid spoilers just go to the 28.50 mark and enjoy that scene on the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1AWU6qiHHg
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on April 09, 2014, 07:15:35 PM
Really wish people would use this more when trying to make logical arguments...
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 01:23:10 AM
So what is everyones' thoughts, and perhaps someone else could do this for each continent?
My thoughts are that this strategy will fail. Reducing the number of regions won't increase region/noble density over time because the problem is not that there are too many regions. The problem is that being a lowly knight without a lordship is boring. Knights have nothing to do! If you want something that will really help player retention, pay more attention to the feature requests and develop the ones that give players more things to do.


You predict that this freezing strategy will pay off in a year or two. BS. I've been in this game for about a year and the only reason I've stayed in it is that my chars were lucky enough to get promotions, which meant giving them more engaging things to do. There's no way in hell I would still be here otherwise. You can only train your unit and visit the academy so many times before you say '!@#$ this, I'd rather browse facebook'.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on April 10, 2014, 01:34:39 AM
Reducing the number of regions won't increase region/noble density over time because the problem is not that there are too many regions. The problem is that being a lowly knight without a lordship is boring. Knights have nothing to do!

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Sure, you may find being a knight boring. But there's more to do as a knight now than there has been at any other time in BattleMaster's history, including the peak of our growth around six years ago.

That said, I do want to make all aspects of the game, especially being a knight, more interesting and fun. The way I'm planning to do that right now is to make war more prevalent and less frustrating.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 02:25:56 AM
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Sure, you may find being a knight boring. But there's more to do as a knight now than there has been at any other time in BattleMaster's history, including the peak of our growth around six years ago.

That said, I do want to make all aspects of the game, especially being a knight, more interesting and fun. The way I'm planning to do that right now is to make war more prevalent and less frustrating.
Talking about the glory days of 6 years ago means nothing to new players like me. Whatever happened in 2008 to increase recruitment/retention is neither here nor there because by Tom's own assessment the game has stagnated since then. If you knew the formula to increase player retention/recruitment, then the game wouldn't be losing 20 players a month. I'm in the demographic of new players, or at least the fairly new, and your grip on new players is tenuous. You can keep dumping negativity whenever players try to tell you something and dismiss it as illogical, and see where that gets you, or you can open up to the ideas of outsiders and possibly improve the game with their help.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on April 10, 2014, 02:38:34 AM
Talking about the glory days of 6 years ago means nothing to new players like me. Whatever happened in 2008 to increase recruitment/retention is neither here nor there because by Tom's own assessment the game has stagnated since then. If you knew the formula to increase player retention/recruitment, then the game wouldn't be losing 20 players a month. I'm in the demographic of new players, or at least the fairly new, and your grip on new players is tenuous. You can keep dumping negativity whenever players try to tell you something and dismiss it as illogical, and see where that gets you, or you can open up to the ideas of outsiders and possibly improve the game with their help.

I'm just trying to apply logic, Buffakill.

There are a number of things that have changed since 2008. None of those (that I can see) had any significant negative impact on the amount of different fun things that normal knights can do. Thus, any assertion that the lack of fun things for normal knights to do is a major factor in the decline in the playerbase needs some kind of significant specific evidence to support it. I do not see that you have provided this.

Again, though, I completely agree that it's a good idea to add stuff for knights to do, and that doing so will help with retention. I just don't agree that it's an important part of what changed to cause the decline in the playerbase.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: OFaolain on April 10, 2014, 02:39:10 AM
I think there are actually a fair number of things to do as a knight; as a knight you can still lead an army, you can still take part in intrigue, you can still be a diplomat/ambassador, you can still take part in religion, and you can still roleplay.  You can still be elected to government office in realms that have such elections (which is partly why I think many people enjoy republics, just look at Barca's noble count).  The only thing separating a lord from a knight is the necessity of managing food (which can be delegated) and the ability to move the region to another duchy or realm.

When the knight game gets boring is when the upper echelons of control (Dukes, Realm Council in particular) don't include the knights in councils relevant to their interests.  So part of the knight game being fun is other players allowing you to participate in that higher-level planning and foreign policy talk; an old character of mine was in Astrum's high council and it was great, but when all the dialogue takes placed behind closed doors it is significantly less great for everyone else.

Speaking as a player who has played in realms with extreme inactivity and low player count (Niselur before Arrakis's rebellion was boring), having more nobles concentrated in a smaller area is extremely positive, because when your realm is 10 regions and you have 12 nobles but only 4 of them ever have anything to say the entire *game* is not fun, not just the knight game.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 03:34:22 AM
I think there are actually a fair number of things to do as a knight; as a knight you can still lead an army, you can still take part in intrigue, you can still be a diplomat/ambassador, you can still take part in religion, and you can still roleplay.  You can still be elected to government office in realms that have such elections (which is partly why I think many people enjoy republics, just look at Barca's noble count). 
Not so. As a newbie you don't have enough prestige for most of the things you mentioned. You can't change class, you can't be appointed lord, and you can't stand for election for govt office, until you reach a certain level of prestige, I think 10.  And even if they hang in there long enough to get 10 prestige, it's still highly unlikely that they'd get appointed/elected to anything.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 04:12:23 AM
Thus, any assertion that the lack of fun things for normal knights to do is a major factor in the decline in the playerbase needs some kind of significant specific evidence to support it. I do not see that you have provided this.
Player testimony IS evidence, but if you want spreadsheets I'll gladly create those too. Just give me the data. I asked several months ago for player retention data based on things like time in the game, characters' ranks and positions, and probably other data points that I don't remember right now. With relevant data and some smart analysis, we can zero in on what causes players to drop out. I suspect the drop-outs would fall into a few main categories: newbies who sign up and drop-out shortly thereafter, old-timers who have enjoyed the game but feel they've gone as far as they can go with it, rage quitters, and players who drop-out for personal reasons not related to the game. The next step would be to come up with targeted strategies that address the different reasons people quit.


Suppose we were able to determine that newbies who spend 10 mins/day in the first week are 50% less likely to drop-out than those who spend only 5 mins/day. If that were so, then we could start brainstorming ways to keep the newbies engaged for just a few minutes longer.


I also proposed a way to collect data from players so they could give feedback about how much fun they're having at any given time so the devs could monitor the changes over time and correlate them with significant events, such as new features and in-game events. That was several months ago and I assume it's been consigned to the graveyard of dead feature requests.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: OFaolain on April 10, 2014, 04:54:22 AM
Not so. As a newbie you don't have enough prestige for most of the things you mentioned. You can't change class, you can't be appointed lord, and you can't stand for election for govt office, until you reach a certain level of prestige, I think 10.  And even if they hang in there long enough to get 10 prestige, it's still highly unlikely that they'd get appointed/elected to anything.

You said "as a knight" before, not "as a newbie".  "As a knight" there are plenty of things to do, and if it's unlikely that you'd get elected or appointed to anything then you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.  You are not ingratiating yourself with the right people, you are not making the most of your BM experience; I was in the game for a week on my first ever character before I became vice-marshal of an army because I wrote a roleplay where I implied saving the marshal's life (he was wounded) in a battle against undead; sticking by that character got me a duchy eventually before I got busy with other things and wandered off.  Join a religion, be active in your realm's politics, speak out against things your character hates or in favor of things your character likes; take chances, as a knight you have nothing to lose and an entire story to write.

As a newbie your options consist largely of doing civil work and learning where you stand in your realm and in any religion you might join; honestly just getting a handle on what the heck is going on is enough for the first week, considering how this game is paced.  As a newbie you gain prestige and honor fairly rapidly, especially in combat.  That's why wars are so important for new player retention, because it gives them a thing to do that gives quick H/P and helps them demonstrate reliability when their enthusiasm for the game is likely high.  And they are an excellent opportunity to build engagement in new players because it's something that they can be included in right from the start.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 05:42:06 AM

Last week my character was barred from running in an election because he still didn't have the prestige 6 months after I created him. Despite having been arguably the most active player in the most ice-affected realm on Atamara, despite having fought countless battles against ice monsters, countless battles against Darkan soldiers, having been imprisoned 3 times, and despite having been lord of 2 regions, he still was not able to even be a candidate for a govt position. But this is getting off-topic.

If you want to increase the player base, you need to make the game attractive to newbies, and your solutions offer nothing to newbies. My first character when I joined BM had to travel for about a week to get to the capital to recruit a unit. I'm not sure why I didn't quit in that first week, but I was very tempted to, and at various times thereafter. So yes, being a knight is boring, and being a newbie-knight is super-boring. You can argue all day that it's my fault, but at the end of the day, blaming me and players like me doesn't stop the player base shrinking.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on April 10, 2014, 05:55:52 AM
Last week my character was barred from running in an election because he still didn't have the prestige 6 months after I created him. Despite having been arguably the most active player in the most ice-affected realm on Atamara, despite having fought countless battles against ice monsters, countless battles against Darkan soldiers, having been imprisoned 3 times, and despite having been lord of 2 regions, he still was not able to even be a candidate for a govt position. But this is getting off-topic.

If you want to increase the player base, you need to make the game attractive to newbies, and your solutions offer nothing to newbies. My first character when I joined BM had to travel for about a week to get to the capital to recruit a unit. I'm not sure why I didn't quit in that first week, but I was very tempted to, and at various times thereafter. So yes, being a knight is boring, and being a newbie-knight is super-boring. You can argue all day that it's my fault, but at the end of the day, blaming me and players like me doesn't stop the player base shrinking.

Making people start in the capital might be a good idea. I had a friend who had trouble finding a capital and ended up quitting the game.

About playing as knights being boring, you are the one who opened the can Buffalkill. Nobody is blaming you for the shrinking player base.

Some people are not being constructive here. The deed is done. The ice won't just disappear even if people cry and complain. It is here to stay for at least another 5 months until the results come in.

What people should be discussing is with the reduced regions, what can be done to increase the character interaction or how to make it easier for new people to join in the general realm discussions.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Penchant on April 10, 2014, 06:55:05 AM
Talking about the glory days of 6 years ago means nothing to new players like me. Whatever happened in 2008 to increase recruitment/retention is neither here nor there because by Tom's own assessment the game has stagnated since then. If you knew the formula to increase player retention/recruitment, then the game wouldn't be losing 20 players a month. I'm in the demographic of new players, or at least the fairly new, and your grip on new players is tenuous. You can keep dumping negativity whenever players try to tell you something and dismiss it as illogical, and see where that gets you, or you can open up to the ideas of outsiders and possibly improve the game with their help.
One question: Is button clicking what makes battlemaster fun to you? If not, please state what does make battlemaster fun.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on April 10, 2014, 01:54:02 PM
Player testimony IS evidence, but if you want spreadsheets I'll gladly create those too. Just give me the data. I asked several months ago for player retention data based on things like time in the game, characters' ranks and positions, and probably other data points that I don't remember right now. With relevant data and some smart analysis, we can zero in on what causes players to drop out. I suspect the drop-outs would fall into a few main categories: newbies who sign up and drop-out shortly thereafter, old-timers who have enjoyed the game but feel they've gone as far as they can go with it, rage quitters, and players who drop-out for personal reasons not related to the game. The next step would be to come up with targeted strategies that address the different reasons people quit.

And none of that would prove what you've been claiming: that there has been an increase in new players leaving since the game's peak, and that that is caused by a lack of interesting things for newbies to do. Because a) we don't have statistical data going back 6+ years, and b) even if we did, it wouldn't include the reasons people left. Just because someone leaves a week into the game doesn't mean they would have stayed if there had been 17 extra buttons for them to click that gave them shiny points.

BattleMaster is a very niche game. It isn't for everyone. I would expect many people who try it out to decide that they don't actually like it within a week or two, regardless of how much easier we make the learning curve and more fun we make the new player experience. And yes, this is a problem, but it's not one we can solve without turning BattleMaster into WoW or DotA. Which we (obviously) can't and won't.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 02:42:49 PM
And none of that would prove what you've been claiming: that there has been an increase in new players leaving since the game's peak, and that that is caused by a lack of interesting things for newbies to do. Because a) we don't have statistical data going back 6+ years, and b) even if we did, it wouldn't include the reasons people left. Just because someone leaves a week into the game doesn't mean they would have stayed if there had been 17 extra buttons for them to click that gave them shiny points.

BattleMaster is a very niche game. It isn't for everyone. I would expect many people who try it out to decide that they don't actually like it within a week or two, regardless of how much easier we make the learning curve and more fun we make the new player experience. And yes, this is a problem, but it's not one we can solve without turning BattleMaster into WoW or DotA. Which we (obviously) can't and won't.
That's not at all what I said. I just said that being a lowly knight is boring, and I think that the density figures posted at the top of this thread support that because, they show that we have about 50% more lords than knights. Your plan reduces the number of lords by reducing the number of regions, but it remains to be seen whether the former lords will still have an interest after the dust settles and they've been demoted to lowly knights, and whether new knights will stay in the game given that there will be fewer opportunities for them to get "promoted".


Also, I'm not asking for data going back 6+ years. Whatever was happening back then (apparently it awesome) has really no bearing on the present situation. And I didn't ask you to provide the players' reasons for leaving, as I don't expect that you would have a record of that. I asked for player data that I assume you do have, because a large enough sample would reveal certain patterns that would provide insight into player behaviour. You keep saying you want evidence, well this is what evidence would look like.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 10, 2014, 02:54:58 PM
One question: Is button clicking what makes battlemaster fun to you? If not, please state what does make battlemaster fun.
Ignoring your sarcasm, it's the combination of decision-making and roleplaying. Different roles have their own specific decisions to make. Knights have very few decisions compared to other types of characters.


I remember when I joined BM and first took an estate, the message said something like "Right now there's not much to do here because we're just getting the estate system up and running, but there will be more to do later." I think it would be great if they would follow through with that.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Vita` on April 10, 2014, 08:27:17 PM
...I think that the density figures posted at the top of this thread support that because, they show that we have about 50% more lords than knights. Your plan reduces the number of lords by reducing the number of regions, but it remains to be seen whether the former lords will still have an interest after the dust settles and they've been demoted to lowly knights, and whether new knights will stay in the game given that there will be fewer opportunities for them to get "promoted".

...Whatever was happening back then (apparently it awesome) has really no bearing on the present situation.

My perspective on that is that it does have bearing. When it wasn't easy to become a lord or council member, let alone ruler, battlemaster was more fun - the process of moving upward in political jockeying. That's because there was a healthy density of competent competitive players both internally and externally. Becoming a lord used to be a big deal and duke an even bigger deal. Now one can barely find lord for regions anymore.  And on  the other hand - its too easy, to the point of boring,  to gain power in a realm these  days. It comes back to the old idea that anything that is easily gained is not valued highly while that which required struggle to gain is all the more previous,  especially when it may be lost again.

It's certainly true that it is more difficult for new characters to gain prestige. I think for the levels of warfare islands face today it doesn't provide the same h/p gains as the much higher warfare rates of before, making it take longer for new characters to gain necessary stats for positions. I've certainly experienced this myself with a character going for months without gaining 10 prestige (he acquired some unique items to make up for it). Hell, he went months without getting to 3 prestige without unique items. With more dense nobles in a tighter space, it should encourage ambition within a realm to take that region over there for whatever food needing,  old claim, religious effort,  strategic aim etc. reason. Also, less space to march.

I've wondered if new characters (or new accounts) shouldn't only be exposed to the top few communicative and/or war-active realms in Tim's new ratios. That would certainly bring players to realms more likely to expose them to a good battlemaster experience as well as encourage realms to be more involved and/or fight more wars.

Of course, I still think three nobles for new families is a better idea than our current two nobles.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Stabbity on April 10, 2014, 08:35:33 PM
MUST HAVE SHINY POINTS.


Honor: X
Prestige: X
Shiny Points: X

Implement plz.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on April 10, 2014, 08:38:34 PM
MUST HAVE SHINY POINTS.


Honor: X
Prestige: X
Shiny Points: X

Implement plz.

How about these? (http://sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4960)
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on April 10, 2014, 09:18:44 PM
The point of increased player density is to increase competition and conflict. Scarce resources leads to competition. The more scarce the resource, the tougher the competition. Players will be forced to maybe take more extreme actions to get The positions they want. This leads to more wars as people demand more opportunities for advancement. More fun and excitement for everyone.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 11, 2014, 12:09:22 AM
So basically my idea for smaller kingdoms was answered in a odd round about way? I can deal with that...
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 11, 2014, 02:03:16 AM
A simpler way to increase player density might have been to set minimum number of nobles to keep a region, let's say 3. Any region with fewer than 3 nobles goes rogue. As a result, you achieve smaller, more compact realms, but instead of corralling everyone like farm animals who are pissed off because they have no choice in the matter, you would empower them to collaborate and strategise to decide which regions are worth keeping and which ones will go rogue. Things like fealty, honour & teamwork become more important, and peer recruitment would go up because it directly supports expansion. Best of all, it would be player-driven and not sky-hook-driven.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on April 11, 2014, 02:06:37 AM
A simpler way to increase player density might have been to set minimum number of nobles to keep a region, let's say 3. Any region with fewer than 3 nobles goes rogue. As a result, you achieve smaller, more compact realms, but instead of corralling everyone like farm animals who are pissed off because they have no choice in the matter, you would empower them to collaborate and strategise to decide which regions are worth keeping and which ones will go rogue. Things like fealty, honour & teamwork become more important, and peer recruitment would go up because it directly supports expansion. Best of all, it would be player-driven and not sky-hook-driven.

Dwilight already had a problem with isolation and reduced conflicts, this would have made things much worse IMO.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 11, 2014, 02:14:13 AM
Dwilight already had a problem with isolation and reduced conflicts, this would have made things much worse IMO.
It's not in players' nature to sit around polishing their swords. Eventually they find an excuse to use them.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Penchant on April 11, 2014, 02:31:41 AM
It's not in players' nature to sit around polishing their swords. Eventually they find an excuse to use them.
They can't though if the regions are gone. Random pockets of regions disappearing would not have been good IMO.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on April 11, 2014, 02:33:47 AM
A simpler way to increase player density might have been to set minimum number of nobles to keep a region, let's say 3. Any region with fewer than 3 nobles goes rogue. As a result, you achieve smaller, more compact realms, but instead of corralling everyone like farm animals who are pissed off because they have no choice in the matter, you would empower them to collaborate and strategise to decide which regions are worth keeping and which ones will go rogue. Things like fealty, honour & teamwork become more important, and peer recruitment would go up because it directly supports expansion. Best of all, it would be player-driven and not sky-hook-driven.

This would have led, especially on Dwilight, to small realms surrounded by rogue regions, with very little incentive to make war, or ability to do so, given the distances they'd have to march through the wilderness.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 11, 2014, 03:26:48 AM
You're both assuming that realms would be distributed evenly, but there would be clusters, especially when a realms split up. Moreover, in my year on Dwilight we never once went to war with any of the realms that we shared a border with. Instead we were in a perennial state of war with Astrum, despite being separated by about 10 rogue badlands, and Corsanctum, despite being on the far side of the continent with an ocean in between.


Not that your point doesn't have merit, I agree that my idea could change the way wars happen, but if some realms were so insulated from others, I think you would see more intra-realm conflicts leading to successions, and you would see ambitiously bellicose realms shifting to get closer to their enemies. Capitals might be located near the frontier rather than in the centre. And if that still wasn't enough, you could allow out-of-capital recruitment, and the option to refit in allied realms. You might see more infils and traders too. And my idea has a built-in incentive for players to recruit their friends, because they need more people if they want to conquer more territories. Finally, it puts the players in control of their destiny.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on April 11, 2014, 03:33:28 AM
You're both assuming that realms would be distributed evenly, but there would be clusters, especially when a realms split up. Moreover, in my year on Dwilight we never once went to war with any of the realms that we shared a border with. Instead we were in a perennial state of war with Astrum, despite being separated by about 10 rogue badlands, and Corsanctum, despite being on the far side of the continent with an ocean in between.


Not that your point doesn't have merit, I agree that my idea could change the way wars happen, but if some realms were so insulated from others, I think you would see more intra-realm conflicts leading to successions, and you would see ambitiously bellicose realms shifting to get closer to their enemies. Capitals might be located near the frontier rather than in the centre. And if that still wasn't enough, you could allow out-of-capital recruitment, and the option to refit in allied realms. You might see more infils and traders too. And my idea has a built-in incentive for players to recruit their friends, because they need more people if they want to conquer more territories. Finally, it puts the players in control of their destiny.

What?  We traded regions back and forth with Astrum for years.  We shared an eastern and a western border in the north.  The only other realm Asylon ever attack directly was Itauland, which barely counts (but who we also shared a border with). 
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 11, 2014, 04:20:30 AM
What?  We traded regions back and forth with Astrum for years.  We shared an eastern and a western border in the north.  The only other realm Asylon ever attack directly was Itauland, which barely counts (but who we also shared a border with).
Itauland was before my time, but my point was that there are smarter ways to increase player density than the one that is being tried. None of them will likely be tried because there are too many hyenas waiting to !@#$ all over any constructive feedback that challenges the party line.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: OFaolain on April 11, 2014, 04:27:13 AM
Instead we were in a perennial state of war with ... Corsanctum, despite being on the far side of the continent with an ocean in between.

And but for the monster invasion and being told "you are screwed, migrate" you would likely never have attacked us in our homeland; it would have been a paper war.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on April 11, 2014, 04:42:20 AM
And but for the monster invasion and being told "you are screwed, migrate" you would likely never have attacked us in our homeland; it would have been a paper war.

This isn't true, we were already planning invasions by the Inner Sea.  We wouldn't have been able to take over your regions, but we could have looted and plundered you away into oblivion.  Based on what we have seen it looks like the drought and subsequent  rebalance hit Corsantum hard.  I don't think it beyond the possibility that you could have lost your realm, or have been forced to turn it over to Astrum or Morek at the very least.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on April 11, 2014, 04:51:11 AM
Itauland was before my time, but my point was that there are smarter ways to increase player density than the one that is being tried. None of them will likely be tried because there are too many hyenas waiting to !@#$ all over any constructive feedback that challenges the party line.

What's done is done.  I'm not sure what discussing it more will accomplish.  I'm afraid any more changes will just make things worse for realms already trying to adapt to the radical new maps.  I've been with Asylon since the beginning and suffered for years through being the least powerful and least respected realm on the island, only to have everything taken away the moment we reached the top spot.  It's incredibly aggravating.

However, these turn of events give us some good opportunity.  We are once again pitted against the theocracies, which I think is good for SA and for Asylon (and the CoB).  I think we may be the only realm left that isn't dominated by SA puppets.  We finally have the opportunity to destroy Corsantum and Asturm properly and we can actually do real damage to Morek.  Once we take a bit more land the game will start to pick up again for Asylonians.  Can only go up from here.

Although I gotta say, starting a new character and immediately getting captured by rogues because the only empty estates were in the West and having to sit in silence for a week on my only noble really blows.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on April 11, 2014, 05:14:02 AM
Constructive criticism is great. It often leads to some out of the box ideas that really help. They may not get used verbatim, but they help.

Unfortunately, a lot of the ideas you have come up with will lead to situations that we have already seen won't work. Dwilight was a lot like the situation that would have evolved from your 3 nobles per region idea. The situation that you hoped would develop, never happened. Dwilight was widely regarded as the most boring island in the entire game. It wasn't until the realms expanded enough to actually come into contact with each other, and the free land disappeared, that the island really started picking up.

The game had gone through a lot of changes overt the years. We've tried a lot of different things. Although a suggestion may seem new to you, we may have tried it before. At least some version of it. It's not that we're ignoring your suggestions, but we've spent a lot of time discussing things, and formulating a plan. We've considered a lot of the stuff people are suggesting. You just haven't seen the discussions.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 11, 2014, 06:03:28 AM
Constructive criticism is great. It often leads to some out of the box ideas that really help. They may not get used verbatim, but they help.

Unfortunately, a lot of the ideas you have come up with will lead to situations that we have already seen won't work. Dwilight was a lot like the situation that would have evolved from your 3 nobles per region idea. The situation that you hoped would develop, never happened. Dwilight was widely regarded as the most boring island in the entire game. It wasn't until the realms expanded enough to actually come into contact with each other, and the free land disappeared, that the island really started picking up.

The game had gone through a lot of changes overt the years. We've tried a lot of different things. Although a suggestion may seem new to you, we may have tried it before. At least some version of it. It's not that we're ignoring your suggestions, but we've spent a lot of time discussing things, and formulating a plan. We've considered a lot of the stuff people are suggesting. You just haven't seen the discussions.
Points well taken. But even if something doesn't work exactly how you want it, that's not always a reason to reject it completely. There's no question that any plan will have unintended consequences. For example, if you implement the 3 nobles per region rule and you find that it is in fact too sparse, you can tweak things to make it better, rather than making huge sweeping changes. You could, for instance, allow players to have 2 nobles on Dwilight, speed up travel times, slow down equipment damage, reduce overall food production so that realms need to loot other realms in order to survive.


Slightly off-topic: I read an article in which Warren Buffet gives advice for achieving success, and one of his recommendations was banning the phrase "we tried that and it didn't work," because it kills constructive thinking.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Marlboro on April 11, 2014, 08:51:41 AM
This isn't true, we were already planning invasions by the Inner Sea.  We wouldn't have been able to take over your regions, but we could have looted and plundered you away into oblivion.  Based on what we have seen it looks like the drought and subsequent  rebalance hit Corsantum hard.  I don't think it beyond the possibility that you could have lost your realm, or have been forced to turn it over to Astrum or Morek at the very least.

Yeah, Paul was getting pushed pretty hard on this pre-apocalypse. It was coming, the monsters just sped things up.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on April 11, 2014, 07:26:11 PM
Slightly off-topic: I read an article in which Warren Buffet gives advice for achieving success, and one of his recommendations was banning the phrase "we tried that and it didn't work," because it kills constructive thinking.
Indeed, that is a good point. But when you propose something, be prepared to be told reasons why it may not work. Especially if it's something that we have, literally, already done, and the players despised it.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on April 11, 2014, 08:29:54 PM
Indeed, that is a good point. But when you propose something, be prepared to be told reasons why it may not work. Especially if it's something that we have, literally, already done, and the players despised it.
I understand and accept that. But instead of only finding flaws (which is always the easy and lazy thing to do) I think it's more useful to look at an idea and see what's good about it, and how can we mitigate the unintended consequences. If we tried something before and it failed, we should ask why it failed, and how can we change it without discarding the good parts.


As I already said on another thread, we have very different circumstances compared to 2008. The common critique of this idea is that it will result in realms being too spread out and there won't be enough nobles for regions to expand. Well, Dwilight today is very different. The realms will necessarily be close together because we have half the regions and a fairly large player base, at least for now. So maybe the critical flaw that caused this idea to fail in 2008, wouldn't necessarily repeat itself if we tried it today. And I'm sure there are hundreds of parameters in the game that could be tweaked to improve game play.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on April 12, 2014, 12:45:50 AM
I disagree. Density changes nothing to geography. Luria always had a lot of nobles. Sure, it might be large realm, but the density was never anywhere near as bad as it was in Morek or Corsanctum.

Yet... it has a desert to cross to get to its Southern neighbor. Another desert to cross to get to its western neighbor. A huge frigging mountain range to go North. And nothing but water East. As long as Luria remains a single realm, you could double its noble density, triple it, it won't matter. The geographic barriers remain.

Morek has the seas North of it. And East of it. And West of it. South, a mountain range.

Fissoa has the seas South of it. And East of it. And West of it. North, a desert.

For good and for bad, Dwilight was designed this way. It's my understanding that the idea of having a vast continent, with subcontinents, would allow for interesting diplomacy where it is impossible for everyone to always get involved in everything. I assume, however, that it was also presumed that realms would be a lot smaller. Dwilight's history decided otherwise, however, as those who wanted to rule and govern had an easier time settling abroad than trying to compete for land close to home. Those already established, equally, had greater interests in sponsoring far-off colonies than sharing anything close to home. Even if politics were different, though, would it really fix anything? Dwilight geography is still linear, especially when you take out the western half. Break Morek apart, somehow, and you still end up with realms where most borders are either the seas, the river, or mountains.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Dishman on April 12, 2014, 02:22:35 AM
Morek could fit almost 5 other realms within it. The realms expanded to natural borders because of lack of pressure. Noble density gives pressure, so maybe now we'll see some realm capitals within marching distance of each other.

Before, a 10 region realm only had 10 or so players (cause most of Dwilight were lords). They were quiet backwaters because there was no manpower and the capital of the border realms were a weeks march. Everything grew too big in Dwilight, because we had so much excess.

Put opponents within distance of each other and natural borders won't matter near as much. Hell, even now people live in those desolate mountains. Swordfell has carved out a living there for some time now.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 12, 2014, 02:52:05 AM
Dwilight is awesome.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on April 12, 2014, 04:18:26 AM
I disagree. Density changes nothing to geography. Luria always had a lot of nobles. Sure, it might be large realm, but the density was never anywhere near as bad as it was in Morek or Corsanctum.
Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.

Quote
For good and for bad, Dwilight was designed this way. It's my understanding that the idea of having a vast continent, with subcontinents, would allow for interesting diplomacy where it is impossible for everyone to always get involved in everything. I assume, however, that it was also presumed that realms would be a lot smaller.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on April 12, 2014, 05:38:16 AM
Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.

Luria actually wasn't as populated as you all think. Take another good look at the numbers, you'll find that besides Morek and Corsanctum, they were worse than everyone else.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glloyd on April 12, 2014, 05:49:22 AM
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Sure, you may find being a knight boring. But there's more to do as a knight now than there has been at any other time in BattleMaster's history, including the peak of our growth around six years ago.

That said, I do want to make all aspects of the game, especially being a knight, more interesting and fun. The way I'm planning to do that right now is to make war more prevalent and less frustrating.

Just saying that just because there's more to do as a knight now doesn't mean that it's fun. Also, text based browser games have been on a steep decline for the last 6 years.

Maybe people just don't want to play Battlemaster anymore, and that's why new players don't want to stick around. They join, see this unappealing interface with no pretty pictures for instant gratification, look at a pixelly map from a game that was made at least a decade ago with blobs of nations that have strange names. Then, as a knight, they are greeted with a host of things they CAN'T do. Want to change class? Nope. Want to recruit a large force? Nope. Want to run for election? Nope. Want to be a lord? Nope.

The only reason I stuck around is because I enjoy roleplaying, and I assumed that the game would get better when I became a lord, which I assumed would happen right when I got the necessary amount of prestige. I got the necessary amount of prestige, became a lord, then had fun with the game. However, I have a high tolerance for games that looks unappealing (I found out about the game on the Dwarf Fortress forums). Many others don't, so they join, realize that they won't get any instant gratification from this game, and then they leave and forget all about the game.

Honestly? I think new player retention could be helped by making the game not look so Web 1.0, and overhauling the interface. Also, a mobile version of the game would help hugely.

But I don't expect these things to happen. They're not going to happen. So people will continue to join, see an extremely outdated looking webpage and leave for greener pastures while the old players hang around and continue their circlejerk about how great the game was in 2008 and 2009.

You know, I think if this monster nonsense hadn't happened, that would have driven me away soon enough. The insular attitudes, the stagnation and the nauseating amount of sentiment regarding "the good old days" which is itself a massive turn off for new players. Frankly I (and any other new player) don't give a damn about what happened before they joined, and when everyone else playing does, then it makes you feel left out. And who wants to play a multiplayer game that makes you feel left out? That's too much like the real world, and aren't video games supposed to be an escape from the real world? All I wanted to do (and all any new player really wants to do) is establish themselves in their realm and have a good time, while feeling included. If you can't foster that sense of inclusion for new players, no stopgap measure like glaciers or monster invasions will do anything to increase density, because people will always be leaving the game, you'll just have fewer and fewer people coming in.

Anyways, I'm rambling on. You are all so ingrained in your rut, and you'll just keep grinding it down until you're so deep that nobody will want to follow you down. Nothing I say will likely have any effect on your actions, or the future of this game. I hope you realize what you're doing wrong before everybody leaves and you're left with a skeleton crew of people reminiscing about the good old days.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on April 12, 2014, 06:26:29 AM
stuff

Time has changed that is for sure. There are a lot of graphically satisfying browser games than there were when BM first started. Unfortunately, BM isn't about pretty graphics. It is true that BM looks unappealing when you look at GUI and graphics of the game. I believe Tom once tried to find someone to make BM look better but he couldn't. Also, many people are forgetting the fact this is a free game. Sure a handful of people donate a bit but that isn't even enough to keep the game rolling.

The game has been becoming more newcomer friendly over the years and I expect it will continue to do so for the coming years. Some changes will frustrate people like the ice event but it is just a necessary part for the betterment of the game.

The fact that there is only one person - Anaris - working on the game doesn't speed things up either. He is doing this out of his love for the game. Everyone has their own ideas of what BM should be like. But the only one who is actually working on it is Anaris and he is doing this voluntary. I know everyone is frustrated but letting your anger out on the forum doesn't help much either.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: dustole on April 12, 2014, 08:31:17 AM
Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.


Not quite true.   I found a map I drew way back in the early days of Dwilight.    I used a map of Dwilight and drew in political boundaries when we were trying to figure out what we were doing.    One of those maps has Morek almost exactly as it is now. 
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on April 12, 2014, 05:27:03 PM
Sure we had dreams and aspirations, but most of us, including you, figured there was no way we'd get that far. Hell, we *wanted* all the way to Mimer. But we were also convinced that we'd never get that far. We couldn't even hold Unterstrom.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on April 12, 2014, 07:20:25 PM
You still can't hold Unterstrom...  ;)
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on April 12, 2014, 07:27:01 PM
Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.

One can't reduce Lurian culture to density alone. I don't believe that other realms had much less nobles, if any less, when things started. However, Luria is the sole realm which failed to produce any colonies. It was always more self-centered.

That being said, it hasn't fractured significantly in a while, either, and it got big through (illegal) peaceful merger.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: dustole on April 12, 2014, 09:20:32 PM
Shadovar/Dhara is a Lurian colony as is GDoF.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Penchant on April 12, 2014, 10:19:42 PM
Shadovar/Dhara is a Lurian colony as is GDoF.
I don't know GDoF's history but I do D'hara's and the only way that is true is if you are claiming all realms to be "colonies" of the original 3 realms. I even happen to know that in truth Shadovar was hardly a Lurian colony.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on April 13, 2014, 01:40:42 AM
Shadovar was an officially sanctioned colony of Pian en Luries, but it was then weak enough that it could not provide any real support to the realm. It was traitors from Pian en Luries (after a failed rebellion) who split off D'Hara, which then absorbed its parent realm Shadovar.

Fissoa was an offshoot of Madina, not Luria. Alanna claimed it as part of the Empire for a time due to their surrender treaty, which was abrogated by the nobility once they learned that their Grand Duke had signed it without their knowledge.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Penchant on April 13, 2014, 05:55:52 AM
Shadovar was an officially sanctioned colony of Pian en Luries, but it was then weak enough that it could not provide any real support to the realm. It was traitors from Pian en Luries (after a failed rebellion) who split off D'Hara, which then absorbed its parent realm Shadovar.

Fissoa was an offshoot of Madina, not Luria. Alanna claimed it as part of the Empire for a time due to their surrender treaty, which was abrogated by the nobility once they learned that their Grand Duke had signed it without their knowledge.
I am well aware of Shadovar being "officially sanctioned" publicly speaking but I am also aware of the fact that privately it was more of a "sure go for it thing, but you are on your own", which depending on how someone read your post I suppose you did in fact say. Also, thanks for the info on Fissoa (well really for both as I was already aware of the info on Luria, but I didn't state it so yeah).
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on April 14, 2014, 07:26:07 PM
Shadovar/Dhara is a Lurian colony as is GDoF.

Springdale spawned a handful of colonies, plus a secession, before being defeated. Morek spawned all that is SA. Madina spawned pretty much the rest of the realms Dwilight ever saw, including Fissoa.

Shadovar does not give a colonist streak to Luria.
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Buffalkill on May 10, 2014, 11:08:41 PM
Here are the noble densities for each realm relative to number of regions.

                           Nobles          Regions        Density
Morek                     34                 34               1.0
Barca                     40                 20               2.0
Fissoa                     27                 18               1.5
Astrum                   17                 11               1.55
D'Hara                    24                 16               1.5
Corsanctum            15                 12               1.25
Asylon                    44                 26               1.69
Luria Nova              35                 27               1.30
Niselur                   27                 15                1.8
Swordfell                18                 10               1.8
So what is everyones' thoughts, and perhaps someone else could do this for each continent?

Beluaterra
RealmNoblesRegionsDensity
Riombara35311.13
Nothoi30231.30
Thalmarkin34181.89
Spearhold21171.24
Old Grehk18161.13
Melhed18101.80
Fronen1381.63
Ar Agyr1362.17
Caelum1226.00
Enweil100.00



Dwilight
RealmNoblesRegionsDensity
Morek Empire34281.21
Fissoa31181.72
Luria Nova58144.14
Swordfell26112.36
Astrum32103.20
D'Hara2692.89
Barca2755.40
Asylon22211.00
Corsanctum111.00
Niselur300.00
Phantaria100.00
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on May 10, 2014, 11:39:15 PM
N.B. The continent-wide noble density rates are Dwilight: 1.96 Beluaterra: 1.25
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: trying on May 11, 2014, 12:25:10 AM
You can't really compare BT to Dwilight since BT is an immigrant only island.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on May 11, 2014, 12:53:15 AM
You can't really compare BT to Dwilight since BT is an immigrant only island.
I wasn't actually trying to compare continents, I was just responding to Gustav's request for stats about each of the continents.


What does it mean that Beluaterra is an immigrant only island?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Penchant on May 11, 2014, 01:07:34 AM
I wasn't actually trying to compare continents, I was just responding to Gustav's request for stats about each of the continents.


What does it mean that Beluaterra is an immigrant only island?
You can't make a noble on Beluterra, you have to immigrate to get there.
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 11, 2014, 04:07:29 AM
Beluaterra
RealmNoblesRegionsDensity
Riombara35311.13
Nothoi30231.30
Thalmarkin34181.89
Spearhold21171.24
Old Grehk18161.13
Melhed18101.80
Fronen1381.63
Ar Agyr1362.17
Caelum1226.00
Enweil100.00



Dwilight
RealmNoblesRegionsDensity
Morek Empire34281.21
Fissoa31181.72
Luria Nova58144.14
Swordfell26112.36
Astrum32103.20
D'Hara2692.89
Barca2755.40
Asylon22211.00
Corsanctum111.00
Niselur300.00
Phantaria100.00

Would it be possible to use the statistics history to determine what the real population in Beluaterra was in february?
Title: Re: Realms with the most nobles on Dwilight.
Post by: Buffalkill on May 11, 2014, 06:02:05 AM
Would it be possible to use the statistics history to determine what the real population in Beluaterra was in february?
If you go to the realm statistics page and select "Active characters" it gives you the number of nobles in each realm.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 11, 2014, 05:13:23 PM
Which would be easy, if I was actually playing. I'm not.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on May 11, 2014, 05:37:29 PM
Which would be easy, if I was actually playing. I'm not.

Beluaterra nobles


Realm10 Feb.17 Feb.24 Feb.
Riombara262730
Nothoi313130
Thalmarkin313132
Spearhold201817
Old Grehk181921
Melhed121212
Fronen151515
Ar Agyr141312
Caelum12910
Enweil455
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 11, 2014, 05:42:52 PM
So basically Beluaterra has actually seen a large increase in the number of nobles. I think it is characters leaving the other, glacier/invasion-ridden continents, for one that is much less so.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on May 11, 2014, 06:06:28 PM
So basically Beluaterra has actually seen a large increase in the number of nobles. I think it is characters leaving the other, glacier/invasion-ridden continents, for one that is much less so.
EC, BT & Colonies are up, the rest are down.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on May 12, 2014, 12:25:34 AM
So basically Beluaterra has actually seen a large increase in the number of nobles. I think it is characters leaving the other, glacier/invasion-ridden continents, for one that is much less so.

How do you figure that? I count a net gain of an amazing 1 noble from Feb 10th to Feb 24th.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on May 12, 2014, 01:33:32 AM
How do you figure that? I count a net gain of an amazing 1 noble from Feb 10th to Feb 24th.
+9 more from 24 Feb. until now. Dwilight has had a net loss of 20 nobles, although the number of actual chars who immigrated, died, paused, quit or retired is much higher.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 12, 2014, 03:53:19 PM
How do you figure that? I count a net gain of an amazing 1 noble from Feb 10th to Feb 24th.

Because the game in general is shrinking, Chenier. So while it may not be growing, per se, it is a much better noble population growth rate than the other continents.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Penchant on May 12, 2014, 08:58:16 PM
Because the game in general is shrinking, Chenier. So while it may not be growing, per se, it is a much better noble population growth rate than the other continents.
You are just trying to be right. You said a large increase in nobles not a better noble population growth. I haven't looked at the stats to actually confirm or deny it, but your statement is just trying to change what you already said to make yourself look right.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 12, 2014, 09:12:54 PM
You are just trying to be right. You said a large increase in nobles not a better noble population growth. I haven't looked at the stats to actually confirm or deny it, but your statement is just trying to change what you already said to make yourself look right.

Actually I didn't read the exact connotation of my last post when I made my next one, so you're just looking a bit too far into it for something wrong. Besides, the population of nobles HAS increased, which is more than you can say about the other islands, so my point still stands.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Lorgan on May 12, 2014, 09:15:02 PM
This can all be explained by one simple rule: BT > all.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on May 13, 2014, 01:35:37 AM
Changes of the last 30 days (Apr.12 - May11):


Dwilight: -26
East Continent: +21
Atamara: -4
Beluaterra: +9
Colonies: +3
Far East: -22
Total: -19
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on May 13, 2014, 03:38:38 AM
Pretty much what I figured. I feel that Atamara might see a sudden drop off soon, but not immediately. The Darka players are for the most part very enduring players, able to take setbacks well.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Samboji on July 07, 2014, 03:23:48 AM
I'd be very interested to see the figures in a month or so for Dwilight. It'd probably give away too much info right now (even though it's publicly accessible), but it'd be nice to know once the continent settles down a bit.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 16, 2014, 10:07:25 PM
I might create an account just to keep track of these figures, unless someone already in the game wishes to.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on August 17, 2014, 01:13:54 AM

Active characters on Dwilight
Realm/date28/2/1431/3/1430/4/1431/5/1430/6/1431/7/1416/8/14
Astrum17192623202018
Asylon42423820212217
Barca39382921221615
Corsanctum1373----
D'Hara23282528282827
Fissoa28313332333334
Luria Nova37424758494650
Morek Empire35393737302822
Niselur28166----
Swordfell19192427191922
TOTAL281281268246222212205
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Jens Namtrah on August 17, 2014, 01:28:46 AM
An issue that people don't seem to be taking into account - on all of the islands, not just Dwilight - is that the region:noble ratio is skewed in realms with more cities.

Many realms have most of their nobles in richer city estates, because lordships have no value.

Many regions have less gold, often are in realms where most of the perks of being a lord have been stripped away - and so you have lots of empty regions that are in fine condition and probably making a bit of gold for the Duke each week, but contribute to the emptiness.

This leads directly to not wanting to have wars, because you already have too much land.

Summary: The Ice and Hordes didn't go far enough to actually change anything, and some islands could use a bit more shrinkage.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Antonine on August 17, 2014, 01:39:00 AM
Those figures are quite interesting. It looks like Astrum and Swordfell have stayed roughly the same, like Luria, Fissoa and D'hara have seen increases, like Asylon, Barca and Morek have seen big drops and obviously Niselur and Corsanctum no longer exist.

So what I see there is basically the western realms losing a large number of nobles, including the surviving ones, which is to be expected with realms which have lost their homelands, but this in turn has driven an increase in nobles for the eastern realms with the exception of Morek which is managing to buck the trend by shedding nobles rapidly - almost certainly due to reasons unique to the atmosphere in that realm.

Which means that overall the closing of western Dwilight has been a partial success and a partial failure. On the one hand, it has driven an increase in noble density in the south (I suspect the north would have seen this decline pretty much no matter what happened) but it has also lead to a large fall in total noble numbers as well - which is not surprising considering how demoralising this must have been for nobles in the realms hit by monsters.

It'd be interesting to see what the numbers are like for other continents. I get the impression from the limited perspective of my characters that it's worked far better on EC than FEI and I have no idea what's happened in AT.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on August 18, 2014, 07:01:27 PM
I have split out the Knight/Region efficiency discussion to here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,6079.0.html
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 18, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
I have split out the Knight/Region efficiency discussion to here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,6079.0.html

Thank you. That was frankly turning a bit ugly.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on August 19, 2014, 04:14:10 AM
Well that killed the discussion. Why was this thread split up?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 19, 2014, 08:03:37 AM
Because it had little practical value. Whether or not having knights in a region affected the amount of gold is not the purpose of this thread, and what effect it does have is inconsequential compared to the difference in noble numbers when it comes to activity.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Buffalkill on August 19, 2014, 01:26:49 PM
You're a little late to the discussion to be telling everyone else what it's supposed to be about. The thread is about the issue of the low nobles to regions ratio and it's perfectly relevant to talk about how that may be affected by various elements including how gold is distributed.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 19, 2014, 07:19:12 PM
You're a little late to the discussion to be telling everyone else what it's supposed to be about. The thread is about the issue of the low nobles to regions ratio and it's perfectly relevant to talk about how that may be affected by various elements including how gold is distributed.

You realize I'm Gustav Kuriga, yes? I created this thread. I'll be the one to determine what the topic of it is. Not once in my original post did I mention anything about gold distribution.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on August 20, 2014, 12:11:04 AM
You're a little late to the discussion to be telling everyone else what it's supposed to be about. The thread is about the issue of the low nobles to regions ratio and it's perfectly relevant to talk about how that may be affected by various elements including how gold is distributed.

The conversation was moved, not removed. If you care so much for it, why not just continue on the new thread?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on August 20, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
You realize I'm Gustav Kuriga, yes? I created this thread. I'll be the one to determine what the topic of it is.
I don't believe that's how it works in the adult world. :)
Discussion deviated slightly, then it got back on track. Was no real need to overregulate post factum.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 20, 2014, 05:02:53 PM
I don't believe that's how it works in the adult world. :)
Discussion deviated slightly, then it got back on track. Was no real need to overregulate post factum.

Discussion went into gold distribution, which was not the reason I wanted to discuss noble density in the first place. I wanted a discussion on noble density based on its effect on activity in Dwilight, not some min/max way of gaming the gold system. The discussion can deviate slightly, yes. But then it needs to get back on track. That discussion showed no signs of slowing, so I asked that it get its own thread. If you're so eager to discuss it, go to the thread that was split off instead of whining about how you can't discuss it in this thread. It isn't like I had them delete the posts, they're still in the Dwilight subforum, but now it is its own topic, and so free to go on for as long as it wants.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on August 22, 2014, 06:26:43 PM
Since this thread is about noble density, and not character count overall, how about some current density numbers for Dwilight?

RealmRegionsCharactersDensity
Fissoa20341.70
Astrum18181.00
D'Hara8263.25
Morek35220.63
Asylon3165.33
Barca4153.75
Luria Nova18502.78
Swordfell15241.60

With the exception of two notable realms, density looks pretty good.

And hey, how's that war going? Anyone still complaining about things being too peaceful?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on August 22, 2014, 07:40:29 PM
Since this thread is about noble density, and not character count overall, how about some current density numbers for Dwilight?

RealmRegionsCharactersDensity
Fissoa20341.70
Astrum18181.00
D'Hara8263.25
Morek35220.63
Asylon3165.33
Barca4153.75
Luria Nova18502.78
Swordfell15241.60

With the exception of two notable realms, density looks pretty good.

And hey, how's that war going? Anyone still complaining about things being too peaceful?

Wow, D'Hara has more nobles than Morek!? It neither feels big nor dense.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 22, 2014, 09:46:43 PM
Since this thread is about noble density, and not character count overall, how about some current density numbers for Dwilight?

RealmRegionsCharactersDensity
Fissoa20341.70
Astrum18181.00
D'Hara8263.25
Morek35220.63
Asylon3165.33
Barca4153.75
Luria Nova18502.78
Swordfell15241.60

With the exception of two notable realms, density looks pretty good.

And hey, how's that war going? Anyone still complaining about things being too peaceful?

Take out Barca, D'Hara and Asylon, and you don't have a healthy continent anymore. They're outliers, and their ultra-high densities now are artificial because they've lost all or some of their lands from the monster invasion, not because of an increase in nobles. Astrum has actually lost density, Morek has lost density, Swordfell has lost density. The only one where the density goes up because nobles came over from the west is Luria Nova, so all in all I'd say they're the ones who win out in the end. I think Fissoa has stayed about the same density-wise.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on August 22, 2014, 10:12:15 PM
They turned Dwilight into the far-east continent...
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on August 22, 2014, 10:56:18 PM
Take out Barca, D'Hara and Asylon, and you don't have a healthy continent anymore.

Well, yeah, if you specifically exclude all the high density realms, then of course the density is low, because you tossed out all the high ones. You can make any data set say whatever you want, if you simply exclude all the inconvenient data points you don't like.

Seriously speaking, though, what you mostly end up with is a continent with character density pretty much equivalent to any other island. The overall density on AT is 1.7. On Dwilight right now, it's 1.69. That's characters per controlled region, too, and has nothing to do with realms or realm density. (FWIW - FEI's overall density is 1.97.) Swordfell is 1.7. Fissoa is 1.6. D'Hara and Luria are way higher. Only Astrum and Morek are low.

In any case, the shrinking was NOT done in the hopes that character count would immediately spike. It was done to increase *density*. Increasing density increases conflict, which drives up player satisfaction, and thus retention, and that should cause the character count to go back up. That's a long term goal.

The island-wide density of characters-per-controlled-region when the shrinking started was 1.57.  (According to the post at the beginning of this thread.) It is now 1.69. So it's higher. Not a lot. But apparently enough, since we now have a near-island-wide war. (Or so I understand. I really do need to start a new character there. Should I join Morek for the free lordship? Or maybe Asylon. Any free estates there? :p )

The only realms that have dropped in density are Astrum, Morek, and Swordfell.

Astrum has one more character now than they did then. Their drop in density is because they have 7 more regions than before.

Swordfell has 6 more characters now than they did before. Their drop in density is because they gained 5 regions. That's a 50% increase in region count, and a 33% increase in character count. That's not really a loss.

Morek... well, they are just ... weird.

Fissoa has done exceptionally well, character-wise. They lost 8 regions, but gained 7 nobles. Their density nearly doubled.

D'Hara has two more characters than they did before, with half the regions.

Luria Nova is obviously the big winner here. They gained 15 nobles, a nearly 50% increase. Yes, they did lose 9 regions. But they gained a huge amount of fun when the entire island decided to invade them.

If we look back at the realms that exist now, and compare their density then vs. their density now, it has increased from 1.39 up to 1.69. (Total Characters / Total Controlled Regions) A 22% increase?

Yes, there are two realms that are artificially high in density: Asylon and Barca. Personally, I think it's a miracle that they are even still alive. That's a great tribute to the dedication and perseverance of those players/characters. I hope they can manage to survive, and make a go of it.

So, yes, we do have less characters on the island than we did. Did anyone really think we wouldn't? But what you have now is a more concentrated environment, with a lot of political upheaval. It's denser not just from a characters-per-region standpoint, but from the standpoint of a lot more political agendas and ideologies crammed into a much smaller space. That will get the action flowing. No one gets a free pass of being geographically isolated in their own corner.

The key now is to try and nurture that. If the island stays dynamic and active, then the character count will drift back up.

They turned Dwilight into the far-east continent...
I have no idea what you mean by this. FEI is the second highest density island, behind only EC. As far as the political situation, Dwilight and FEI have absolutely no resemblance.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on August 23, 2014, 12:05:39 AM
Well, yeah, if you specifically exclude all the high density realms, then of course the density is low, because you tossed out all the high ones. You can make any data set say whatever you want, if you simply exclude all the inconvenient data points you don't like.

Seriously speaking, though, what you mostly end up with is a continent with character density pretty much equivalent to any other island. The overall density on AT is 1.7. On Dwilight right now, it's 1.69. That's characters per controlled region, too, and has nothing to do with realms or realm density. (FWIW - FEI's overall density is 1.97.) Swordfell is 1.7. Fissoa is 1.6. D'Hara and Luria are way higher. Only Astrum and Morek are low.

In any case, the shrinking was NOT done in the hopes that character count would immediately spike. It was done to increase *density*. Increasing density increases conflict, which drives up player satisfaction, and thus retention, and that should cause the character count to go back up. That's a long term goal.

The island-wide density of characters-per-controlled-region when the shrinking started was 1.57.  (According to the post at the beginning of this thread.) It is now 1.69. So it's higher. Not a lot. But apparently enough, since we now have a near-island-wide war. (Or so I understand. I really do need to start a new character there. Should I join Morek for the free lordship? Or maybe Asylon. Any free estates there? :p )

The only realms that have dropped in density are Astrum, Morek, and Swordfell.

Astrum has one more character now than they did then. Their drop in density is because they have 7 more regions than before.

Swordfell has 6 more characters now than they did before. Their drop in density is because they gained 5 regions. That's a 50% increase in region count, and a 33% increase in character count. That's not really a loss.

Morek... well, they are just ... weird.

Fissoa has done exceptionally well, character-wise. They lost 8 regions, but gained 7 nobles. Their density nearly doubled.

D'Hara has two more characters than they did before, with half the regions.

Luria Nova is obviously the big winner here. They gained 15 nobles, a nearly 50% increase. Yes, they did lose 9 regions. But they gained a huge amount of fun when the entire island decided to invade them.

If we look back at the realms that exist now, and compare their density then vs. their density now, it has increased from 1.39 up to 1.69. (Total Characters / Total Controlled Regions) A 22% increase?

Yes, there are two realms that are artificially high in density: Asylon and Barca. Personally, I think it's a miracle that they are even still alive. That's a great tribute to the dedication and perseverance of those players/characters. I hope they can manage to survive, and make a go of it.

So, yes, we do have less characters on the island than we did. Did anyone really think we wouldn't? But what you have now is a more concentrated environment, with a lot of political upheaval. It's denser not just from a characters-per-region standpoint, but from the standpoint of a lot more political agendas and ideologies crammed into a much smaller space. That will get the action flowing. No one gets a free pass of being geographically isolated in their own corner.

The key now is to try and nurture that. If the island stays dynamic and active, then the character count will drift back up.
I have no idea what you mean by this. FEI is the second highest density island, behind only EC. As far as the political situation, Dwilight and FEI have absolutely no resemblance.

Honestly you're in denial. The goal of the whole monster invasion was to increase the density on the rest o the continent. But what you actually had happen was the nobles who stayed squeezed onto the nearest half of the usable parts of Dwilight, while the other half remained the same and continued to grow ever more depopulated. So basically the end result of all this is going to be that 1/4 of the total size of dwilight is going to be populated in any number, while the rest is just left to die off. Honestly the best way of doing this in the beginning would have been the monsters invading the area of Morek, but it's too late for that.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on August 23, 2014, 12:26:55 AM
Density wise, I think Dwilight hit the nail. The continent was way too big for the number of nobles and now the entire continent is involved in one area. Even Morek is coming down to join the party.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on August 23, 2014, 12:37:31 AM
Honestly you're in denial.

The numbers show that he's not. All you've got is negativity piled on top of negativity. Which, as I recall, I have specifically asked you to stop posting constantly on boards for a game you don't even care enough about to play anymore.

All you've done since long before the monster invasion is preach about how magnificent Asylon is, how everyone else should just bow down and worship them, especially Morek and Astrum, and how no other realm on Dwilight is worth a damn next to them. We got the picture months ago. But you apparently didn't get the picture about what I said to you.

You need to stop making uselessly negative posts, Gustav. If you insist on posting, then I insist that in a significant percentage of your posts, you either a) say sincere, positive things about the game, or b) at least propose reasonable solutions to the problems you see—ones that haven't already been rejected.

If we want BattleMaster to improve, we need to improve the atmosphere of the game and the forums, and we'll never do that while we have people like you constantly spouting worthless doom-and-gloom dreck that doesn't actually introduce any new or helpful information.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on August 23, 2014, 12:56:50 AM
Dwilight is like FEI now. Its a long sausage shaped map with Morek (Aracea) at the top.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Jens Namtrah on August 23, 2014, 02:15:08 AM
Quote
But what you actually had happen was the nobles who stayed squeezed onto the nearest half of the usable parts of Dwilight

And do you think they are going to just sit there with a 5+ density and stay squeezed? They're going to want land, and they're going to want to be Lords and Dukes - so they're going to have to go push someone else out.

The whole goal of this excercise
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on August 23, 2014, 02:26:21 AM
Dwilight is like FEI now. Its a long sausage shaped map with Morek (Aracea) at the top.

Comparing Morek with Arcaea is utterly ludicrous. Purely from a density standpoint, Arcaea has three times the characters per region that Morek does, and is better than the average on four out of the seven continents (and the SI barely counts in this). On the remaining two continents, there are a total of seven realms with higher density, and two of those are one-region realms.

As far as activity goes, Arcaea is pretty much the mover and shaker on the FEI. Morek is just big. That's literally all it has going for it right now.

Dwilight is as much like the FEI as a paintbrush is like a tulip. Sure, they've got vaguely similar shapes...but other than that, they're completely different.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on August 23, 2014, 02:40:53 AM
How? Strategically and geographically they are almost identical. The south in FEI has always been where the action is and the north is where no can get in and attack. Sea travel might help but my prediction is a long long dominate stagnant north that controls land and gold.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on August 23, 2014, 03:01:34 AM
How? Strategically and geographically they are almost identical.

This may be true, I'm not going to bother trying to analyze it right now (I'm going to watch some Battlestar Galactica with my wife, instead ;D ).

Quote
The south in FEI has always been where the action is and the north is where no can get in and attack.

But however true this might have been in the past (which I question right off the bat), there's absolutely no reason that it will remain so. The north of the FEI has four realms in it—sure, Arcaea is the strongest, but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable. The north of Dwilight has, at quick glance, room for at least five realms.

As for getting in, on Dwilight, yeah, it's a little harder for Luria to attack Morek than for them to attack Fissoa. But it's far from impossible for anyone to attack Morek. Swordfell, for instance, is perfectly positioned to do so. And frankly, at the moment, I would say that the biggest danger for Morek is that of secession, given how hollowed-out it is.

On the FEI, there are just two realms south of Arcaea anyway, and neither of them would have any real problem attacking it. So I'm really not sure where your comparison is coming from.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on September 12, 2014, 02:38:30 AM
While I thought that this migration thing could have turned out to be really interesting and fun despite being kind of sucky that it happened, as someine in Barca I feel that it has been a complete and utter disaster of a failure and I am extremely disappointed with how it went. I get more messages in a day in Taselak than I see in a week or more in Barca. The shape if the island isn't very great either.

Instead of boosting populations it seems to have had the opposite effect, with few of the characters who have left remaining on Dwilight at all. Many players deleted their accounts entirely, and some of them were very active players who would have contributed a lot to the the continued 'success' of the island regardless of what realm they ended up in.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: De-Legro on September 12, 2014, 03:05:11 AM
While I thought that this migration thing could have turned out to be really interesting and fun despite being kind of sucky that it happened, as someine in Barca I feel that it has been a complete and utter disaster of a failure and I am extremely disappointed with how it went. I get more messages in a day in Taselak than I see in a week or more in Barca. The shape if the island isn't very great either.

Instead of boosting populations it seems to have had the opposite effect, with few of the characters who have left remaining on Dwilight at all. Many players deleted their accounts entirely, and some of them were very active players who would have contributed a lot to the the continued 'success' of the island regardless of what realm they ended up in.

D'Hara seems to have reasonable activity.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on September 12, 2014, 03:08:28 AM
D'Hara seems to have reasonable activity.

I don't feel we owe any of it to the elimination of the West, though.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on September 12, 2014, 03:22:53 AM
D'Hara seems to have reasonable activity.
And your point is? They lost little except a couple of regions and a bunch of gold (and, well, peasant soldiers) when the west island was closed. I don't know how many players they gained, I know that several characters did join them, but Morek hasn't really received a boost and the nations forced to migrate are or have  lost far too many players (if they still exist) for the most part. Many of those players quit the game entirely, which is exactly what BM doesn't need.

I don't even really know whom half the people in Barca are anymore.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: De-Legro on September 12, 2014, 04:06:36 AM
And your point is? They lost little except a couple of regions and a bunch of gold (and, well, peasant soldiers) when the west island was closed. I don't know how many players they gained, I know that several characters did join them, but Morek hasn't really received a boost and the nations forced to migrate are or have  lost far too many players (if they still exist) for the most part. Many of those players quit the game entirely, which is exactly what BM doesn't need.

I don't even really know whom half the people in Barca are anymore.

My point is taking the reality of one realm and making statements about the net effect across the entire game is not exactly good analysis. Not being within Barca I can't say what if any measures the players took to try and create interaction and interest in the realm during this time, but as with all things that is key. If everyone is just sitting around waiting for others to write messages, then obviously nothing is going to happen. Try instead posting something constructive. WHY was it a failure. What could have been done differently and more importantly what can be done to rectify the situation.

Also why would Morek receive a boost? It was a boring realm before the event, so it is hardly going to be top of the list for people looking for a new home unless they have good reason to think they can turn the realm around. Realms die from inactivity irrespective of things like the migration, so help us to understand why this case is significantly due to the migration. From my outsider view Barca seems to be on a downward trajectory before.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Sorandil on September 12, 2014, 02:35:52 PM
And your point is? They lost little except a couple of regions and a bunch of gold (and, well, peasant soldiers) when the west island was closed. I don't know how many players they gained, I know that several characters did join them, but Morek hasn't really received a boost and the nations forced to migrate are or have  lost far too many players (if they still exist) for the most part. Many of those players quit the game entirely, which is exactly what BM doesn't need.

I don't even really know whom half the people in Barca are anymore.

We lost 6 regions, including 2 cities, which is almost half of our regions. I wouldn't say the event had little effect on us.

Some people join us, others quit. I would say we have about the same number as before the monsters came, maybe a bit more.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on September 12, 2014, 05:41:58 PM
We lost 6 regions, including 2 cities, which is almost half of our regions. I wouldn't say the event had little effect on us.

Some people join us, others quit. I would say we have about the same number as before the monsters came, maybe a bit more.

Indeed. The loss of the West did amputate D'Hara of a significant portion on its land, namely its grainbasket. Which stacks with the loss of the Madinian holdings.

I think we do have a bit more nobles than before, but I don't attribute any of it to the destruction of the West. At least, not for now. If Barcans and Asylonians decide to join us, then the answer will become yes. And they could yet do so: becoming city knights in a wealthy realm can have a lot more perks than going to Morek and being poor lords at the edge of the world and in a realm with little perspective for fun. And unlike Morek, D'Hara has a lot of potential activities for when the war ceases, because we have both the motive (reclaiming of lost lands, revival of Maroccidentalism, cultural integration of new nobles) and the possibility (wealthy cities, proximity, developed infrastructure) to field armies and try to set up establishments where the rogues now thrive. On the other hand, if all of the Asylonians and Barcans go to Morek for easy lordships, then Dwilight will not have gained anything at all, save for the insanely low density realm to become a somewhat less but still insanely low density realm.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Dragonsbane on September 13, 2014, 05:43:59 PM
Indeed. The loss of the West did amputate D'Hara of a significant portion on its land, namely its grainbasket. Which stacks with the loss of the Madinian holdings.

I think we do have a bit more nobles than before, but I don't attribute any of it to the destruction of the West. At least, not for now. If Barcans and Asylonians decide to join us, then the answer will become yes. And they could yet do so: becoming city knights in a wealthy realm can have a lot more perks than going to Morek and being poor lords at the edge of the world and in a realm with little perspective for fun. And unlike Morek, D'Hara has a lot of potential activities for when the war ceases, because we have both the motive (reclaiming of lost lands, revival of Maroccidentalism, cultural integration of new nobles) and the possibility (wealthy cities, proximity, developed infrastructure) to field armies and try to set up establishments where the rogues now thrive. On the other hand, if all of the Asylonians and Barcans go to Morek for easy lordships, then Dwilight will not have gained anything at all, save for the insanely low density realm to become a somewhat less but still insanely low density realm.

This is actually what brought me to D'Hara, was that after this war ends, they have the resources and activity to help me with the goal of creating something awesome, such as a monster slaying realm that does expeditions into the west and tries to take back the lands from the beasts.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Renodin on September 13, 2014, 09:18:16 PM
Most of the Things Chenier just details have already happened to Luria in the last few months.  A bit of Underdog syndrome, a bit of people seeking fun, bored people migrating into Luria and the tide changing I suppose. Lots of positive Dynamics going on. Should something like that happen to D'hara I'm sure it will be a great realm also. Its always had lots of contact with foreign realms, thats for sure.

The same is true for other realms I imagine but overall I fear that as far as my perceptions are able to detect, did the monster invasion favor the south mainly and not the north at all. Which is both strange and logical for various reasons.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on September 14, 2014, 12:51:01 AM
Most of the Things Chenier just details have already happened to Luria in the last few months.  A bit of Underdog syndrome, a bit of people seeking fun, bored people migrating into Luria and the tide changing I suppose. Lots of positive Dynamics going on. Should something like that happen to D'hara I'm sure it will be a great realm also. Its always had lots of contact with foreign realms, thats for sure.

The same is true for other realms I imagine but overall I fear that as far as my perceptions are able to detect, did the monster invasion favor the south mainly and not the north at all. Which is both strange and logical for various reasons.

The thing is, Asylon and Barca used to be some of the most populated realms in the entire continent, with a population equaling Morek (but in a much more compact realm). Luria was actually behind them, and still is the only realm to have completely gained any kind of benefit from the destruction of the west. Morek has collapsed in on itself in numbers of nobles, D'Hara lost much of its food and gold production, Asylon, Barca, and Niselur all lost everything and had to takeover new regions far away from their cores, while Astrum lost most of their regions. I honestly don't know what's going on in Swordfell, they may have seen some benefit, but at the cost to their allies.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Stabbity on September 14, 2014, 12:03:31 PM
The thing is, Asylon and Barca used to be some of the most populated realms in the entire continent, with a population equaling Morek (but in a much more compact realm). Luria was actually behind them, and still is the only realm to have completely gained any kind of benefit from the destruction of the west. Morek has collapsed in on itself in numbers of nobles, D'Hara lost much of its food and gold production, Asylon, Barca, and Niselur all lost everything and had to takeover new regions far away from their cores, while Astrum lost most of their regions. I honestly don't know what's going on in Swordfell, they may have seen some benefit, but at the cost to their allies.

Everything Swordfell does is at the cost of those who would call them friend. However, they haven't seen too much boost from the migrations, as they were extremely prejudiced and hostile to those who migrated.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on September 16, 2014, 06:42:59 AM
Barca has gone from one of the largest realms on the island to one of the smallest, and a few of the remaining players seem intent on just trying to kill it off. I forgot that D'hara had more regions, my bad there.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on November 20, 2014, 05:58:47 AM
As the year comes to a close, I really think they should have just changed the map or something, widened the east continent if they got rid of the west one. The current shape kind of sucks balls. I do like the islands though, those are cool.

I still feel that closing the western island didn't really prove to be a success.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Wolfsong on November 20, 2014, 08:22:25 AM
It was a bad concept implemented badly that had - unsurprisingly - bad results. It was a bad idea. I don't think anyone was arguing anything otherwise.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 20, 2014, 09:03:56 AM
I do.

I think it was a good idea, I see no problem with the implementation and I have yet to be convinced that the results are 'bad'.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Wolfsong on November 20, 2014, 09:18:24 AM
Let me clarify, then.

For everyone not in the admins' favorite realm, it was a bad idea.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Lorgan on November 20, 2014, 10:05:18 AM
Let me clarify, then.

For everyone not in the admins' favorite realm, it was a bad idea.

Seriously?
The idea was good. It's not Tim's fault that people go crying and blaming him for trying to do something in stead of making the best of surviving and prevailing over a random event in game. The whole thing made RP sense and those who went along with it seem to have a good time despite having lost everything but themselves. But of course if you are hell-bent on continuing to argue about it and whine that the evil admin took your toys and gave them all to his favourest buddy, you refuse to accept it as the irrevocable calamity that it was. Accept that the world is different, and you'll enjoy it.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on November 20, 2014, 05:07:54 PM
I don't blame the admins for choosing this idea, there really weren't any perfect solutions for the problem (better than sinking an entire continent) and it really did seem like a cool idea, however it had lots of problems and was, to some degree, poorly implemented.

We had no idea how much time we would have before the monsters actually forced us out, the admins had to magically slay them because we got trapped.

The mechanics of BM severely punish long marches of armies into foreign lands, and the bonuses to reduce morale penalties and payment costs for units were implemented after we were well under way and already facing problems with payment and morale.

The thin shape of the continent just doesn't lend itself well to BM, its kind of awful in a way. I know that editing the map is probably a huge amount of work though. *opens up Age of Wonders Shadow Magic map editor anyway* I still love that this is what Tom uses for the maps for this game.

I do still appreciate that the admins edited Aveston so that Barca could move its capital there too. We wouldn't be around if that hadn't happened because our attack on Shinnen was a complete cock up.

The goal of this migration was to increase the population of the nations on the east continent, and while there may have been some increase the amount of players who have just ended up out-right quitting the game (paused or deleting their accounts entirely) weighs heavily against any gains.

It really could have been better implemented, and I still think it could have been a lot of fun, but it was definitely not an overall success.

I do.

I think it was a good idea, I see no problem with the implementation and I have yet to be convinced that the results are 'bad'.

Well checking your family page shows you have only had that family for four months and one of your two characters is in Luria Nova, so you were neither there for nor did you have to deal with the entire migration thing. Unless you had a previous family that was there that I don't know about.

Figured I'd update this out of curiosity.
Active characters on Dwilight
Realm/date28/2/1431/3/1430/4/1431/5/1430/6/1431/7/1416/8/1420/11/14
Astrum1719262320201815
Asylon42423820212217-
Barca3938292122161512*
Corsanctum1373-----
D'Hara2328252828282725
Fissoa2831333233333429
Luria Nova3742475849465058
Morek Empire3539373730282234
Niselur28166-----
Swordfell1919242719192222
TOTAL281281268246222212205
195

*One of the Nobles in Barca was killed in a duel months ago, yet he is still listed as a Noble without a unit in Aveston and shows up on messages and drop down lists. So he's a ghost I guess.


Noble densities for each realm relative to number of regions as of November 20th, 2014.
Quote
RealmNoblesRegionsDensity
Astrum15180.83
Aslyon000
Barca12*34.0
Corsanctum000
D'Hara25102.5
Fissoa29231.26
Luria Nova58202.9
Morek25340.74
Niselur000
Swordfell22161.38
TOTAL1861241.5


Compared to the star of this thread on March 8th, 2014
Here are the noble densities for each realm relative to number of regions.

                           Nobles          Regions        Density
Morek                     34                 34               1.0
Barca                     40                 20               2.0
Fissoa                     27                 18               1.5
Astrum                   17                 11               1.55
D'Hara                    24                 16               1.5
Corsanctum            15                 12               1.25
Asylon                    44                 26               1.69
Luria Nova              35                 27               1.30
Niselur                   27                 15                1.8
Swordfell                18                 10               1.8

Something I found very very interesting. Take it for what you will. By the way, the number of nobles from new families in Barca at least is up from three weeks ago. We had 37 nobles then.  We've been on an upward trend in number of nobles for a while now.
Total: 281 Nobles distributed amongst 189 regions - 1.49 nobles per region.

I find it interesting how the overall Noble density hasn't really changed, despite 95 fewer nobles and 65 fewer regions.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: DeVerci on November 20, 2014, 10:48:19 PM
I miss old Barca.  :(
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 21, 2014, 12:36:23 AM
As I've said previously, it would have made more sense to have the monsters invade the area that Morek was controlling. That would have rid us of many extra regions while not affecting as many players. But it's a bit late for that.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 21, 2014, 08:08:44 AM
Well checking your family page shows you have only had that family for four months and one of your two characters is in Luria Nova, so you were neither there for nor did you have to deal with the entire migration thing. Unless you had a previous family that was there that I don't know about.

I have had previous families before this. One of them was a key figure in establishing Barca and it's first judge - a nation I have always had an affinity for and that seems to be the home of many players critical of the monster invasion. I have been playing BattleMaster, off and on, for close to 10 years.

All the same, you are right in some respects. I was not playing when the devs closed half of Dwilight. Since returning to the game, I have had a character in a realm that many claim has been largely unaffected by the changes. Regardless, I maintain my position in that the idea was one of the better options and that the devs have don their best of making the best of a bad situation. I honestly believe that there were no good options available to the devs and that they really did a good job of things when this is considered.

Lastly, I can not believe the level of arrogance and willful ignorance that all this complaining displays. Sure, we can sit here and say that we would have done this and that and it would have been so much better. We can disdainfully point out how the devs should have thought of this and that. I sincerely doubt, however, that any of those complaining could have done any better.

It is easy to sit here now, look back at what happened and say, well the devs clearly should have... How arrogant is it to assume that any of us would have easily divined all possible problems and would have deftly mitigated every one of them? How ignorant must we be to pretend that our present insight is not a result of our possessing knowledge is what already happed and instead act as if these things were obvious from the beginning?

Done ranting for now...
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 21, 2014, 08:18:10 AM
Ossan, none of the totals in your Active Characters table are counted correctly. What gives?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on November 21, 2014, 08:23:33 PM
Ossan, none of the totals in your Active Characters table are counted correctly. What gives?

*facepalms*

I brilliantly decided to delete Asylon, Corsanctum and Niselur entirely from that table, I don't know why the new total I added keeps positioning itself down below though, I'll fix that asap.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 21, 2014, 09:12:13 PM
I have had previous families before this. One of them was a key figure in establishing Barca and it's first judge - a nation I have always had an affinity for and that seems to be the home of many players critical of the monster invasion. I have been playing BattleMaster, off and on, for close to 10 years.

All the same, you are right in some respects. I was not playing when the devs closed half of Dwilight. Since returning to the game, I have had a character in a realm that many claim has been largely unaffected by the changes. Regardless, I maintain my position in that the idea was one of the better options and that the devs have don their best of making the best of a bad situation. I honestly believe that there were no good options available to the devs and that they really did a good job of things when this is considered.

Lastly, I can not believe the level of arrogance and willful ignorance that all this complaining displays. Sure, we can sit here and say that we would have done this and that and it would have been so much better. We can disdainfully point out how the devs should have thought of this and that. I sincerely doubt, however, that any of those complaining could have done any better.

It is easy to sit here now, look back at what happened and say, well the devs clearly should have... How arrogant is it to assume that any of us would have easily divined all possible problems and would have deftly mitigated every one of them? How ignorant must we be to pretend that our present insight is not a result of our possessing knowledge is what already happed and instead act as if these things were obvious from the beginning?

Done ranting for now...

Because as soon as they announced what was happening, I warned them that this was punishing two of the most populated realms on Dwilight, that also happened to be the most densely populated as well. I pointed out how Morek was at the time barely populated enough to even function, and that if we were going to go ahead with a monster invasion, that Morek would be the place to do it since the land they controlled was some of the least fought over and used on the entire continent. What do you think the reason I made this thread for was? It was to provide an analytical look at the population of the continent.

My prediction about what happened came to fruition, so this isn't just some "hindsight is 20/20" thing.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on November 21, 2014, 10:08:54 PM
Lastly, I can not believe the level of arrogance and willful ignorance that all this complaining displays. Sure, we can sit here and say that we would have done this and that and it would have been so much better. We can disdainfully point out how the devs should have thought of this and that. I sincerely doubt, however, that any of those complaining could have done any better.

It is easy to sit here now, look back at what happened and say, well the devs clearly should have... How arrogant is it to assume that any of us would have easily divined all possible problems and would have deftly mitigated every one of them? How ignorant must we be to pretend that our present insight is not a result of our possessing knowledge is what already happed and instead act as if these things were obvious from the beginning?

The most dense and active realms were killed off in favor of dead realms that no one wanted to play in because they were just gold farms for families. We've lost a ton of good players on the island. People I've played with for years, who made the game what it was for me, left because everything we spent the last 3 or more years making was just arbitrarily wiped. Because of the massive drop in numbers, I assume most other Western realms experienced similar situations. Even those that have stuck around have done so in an incredibly diminished capacity. It's hard to be motivated when everything you've committed to for years was wiped, not because of in game reasons or through in game mechanics, but because someone in control decided they liked another realm better. My experience on Dwilight has been that it is nothing but a shell of its former self since the wipe. The wipe drove off large numbers of players, many of them very good players who enhanced the game for everyone else. Sorry if that is being too arrogant for you, but people have a right to be peeved.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 21, 2014, 10:21:23 PM
Don't forget, it was the players who chose which continent to burn. ;)
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 21, 2014, 10:45:51 PM
Don't forget, it was the players who chose which continent to burn. ;)

What are you talking about? That was a bull!@#$ vote in which no one knew what they were really voting for. Go troll another thread.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 21, 2014, 10:54:32 PM
What are you talking about? That was a bull!@#$ vote in which no one knew what they were really voting for. Go troll another thread.

That was the point. If people knew what it was about they would have voted differently.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 21, 2014, 11:00:04 PM
That was the point. If people knew what it was about they would have voted differently.

My view is you should never put something like this to a vote in the first place. Especially when the vote is arbitrarily going to determine something despite being completely unrelated.

I might as well just put out a poll for how many people like chocolate, and use that to determine whether I should buy a new PC. It makes just about as much sense. That vote ignored every warning sign that a simple analyzing of the population data would have told you, that Morek was on the brink of collapse anyways and that the western continent was the most active and vibrant part of Dwilight.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 21, 2014, 11:01:49 PM
... because someone in control decided they liked another realm better.
Please stop perpetuating this bull!@#$. The decisions made by the dev team during the monster invasion on Dwilight, and the freeze events on other islands, had absolutely nothing to do with realms, or the preferences of the dev team. (FWIW - The freeze/monster events wiped out my three favorite realms, two of which I had played in for 5 and 7 years.)

It's one thing to claim that a decision didn't work out the way it was intended. There's no one on the team that can't take criticism, so long as it is honest and well-intentioned. But to make claims that the dev team made such a monumental decision based on what realms were their favorites... You can just keep that slanderous bull!@#$ to yourself. Those types of unfounded, baseless allegations are damaging to the game and the community atmosphere.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 21, 2014, 11:12:09 PM
Please stop perpetuating this bull!@#$. The decisions made by the dev team during the monster invasion on Dwilight, and the freeze events on other islands, had absolutely nothing to do with realms, or the preferences of the dev team. (FWIW - The freeze/monster events wiped out my three favorite realms, two of which I had played in for 5 and 7 years.)

It's one thing to claim that a decision didn't work out the way it was intended. There's no one on the team that can't take criticism, so long as it is honest and well-intentioned. But to make claims that the dev team made such a monumental decision based on what realms were their favorites... You can just keep that slanderous bull!@#$ to yourself. Those types of unfounded, baseless allegations are damaging to the game and the community atmosphere.

I agree Indirik. Graeth, please stop involving yourself in this discussion unless you are going to be civil and stick to an argument that has some basis in logic, rather than emotional demagoguery. You ultimately undermine any argument I make through guilt by association.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on November 21, 2014, 11:25:43 PM
Please stop perpetuating this bull!@#$. The decisions made by the dev team during the monster invasion on Dwilight, and the freeze events on other islands, had absolutely nothing to do with realms, or the preferences of the dev team. (FWIW - The freeze/monster events wiped out my three favorite realms, two of which I had played in for 5 and 7 years.)

It's one thing to claim that a decision didn't work out the way it was intended. There's no one on the team that can't take criticism, so long as it is honest and well-intentioned. But to make claims that the dev team made such a monumental decision based on what realms were their favorites... You can just keep that slanderous bull!@#$ to yourself. Those types of unfounded, baseless allegations are damaging to the game and the community atmosphere.

When it comes down to it, some realms were chosen to survive and some weren't. There was a choice. Unless the decision was completely arbitrary, which would seem odd for such a monumental decision, then there was some reasoning behind which realms would continue and which wouldn't. Whoever made the choice obviously liked something in those realms who stayed around more than they did in the ones that got wiped. I don't think it's unfair to point this out. I'm not crying about devs picking favorites based on their characters. No doubt if it went the other way then people from the Eastern realms would be complaining now instead. It's just the nature of the event. I merely alluded to the choice, which had little to do with my overall post anyways.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Graeth on November 21, 2014, 11:31:25 PM
I agree Indirik. Graeth, please stop involving yourself in this discussion unless you are going to be civil and stick to an argument that has some basis in logic, rather than emotional demagoguery. You ultimately undermine any argument I make through guilt by association.

Go troll somewhere else. I've been completely civil. What points did I make that weren't true? A large chunk of the players left after the wipe. From my own experience many of these players were some of the most active on the island and made the game better for everyone. Regardless, many of these were people whom I've had relations with for years while carving out a fun realm on the island. The losses aren't just numerical, huge sections of the game which were integral to the community were alienated and ultimately left. Many of these losses are disproportional based on their overall influence in the game.

I've moved on, and I'm enjoying my character now, but the spark that was there before isn't there now for me. I didn't resurrect this thread. My post was in response to Scarborn who said those that critize the wipe are arrogant and that overall it has only helped the island. I disagree.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 21, 2014, 11:40:12 PM
Go troll somewhere else. I've been completely civil. What points did I make that weren't true? A large chunk of the players left after the wipe. From my own experience many of these players were some of the most active on the island and made the game better for everyone. Regardless, many of these were people whom I've had relations with for years while carving out a fun realm on the island. The losses aren't just numerical, huge sections of the game which were integral to the community were alienated and ultimately left. Many of these losses are disproportional based on their overall influence in the game.

I've moved on, and I'm enjoying my character now, but the spark that was there before isn't there now for me. I didn't resurrect this thread. My post was in response to Scarborn who said those that critize the wipe are arrogant and that overall it has only helped the island. I disagree.

All those are true, but you've also accused the devs of making a biased choice based on which realms they like more, which isn't true at all. The choice on Dwilight was completely arbitrary, which while is something I have huge qualms about, isn't a case of dev bias. I don't think you realize that I am the person who made this thread, specifically to look at which realms were most successful, and why destroying the part of Dwilight they were on was a horrible decision.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2014, 12:25:56 AM
What they should have done was wiped out the eastern continent and allowed the western continent to survive in a reversal of fortunes type scenerio. The western kingdoms had only recently become a force in Dwilight and were/ would have become the driving force for future Dwilight lore. Instead the devs chose to kill off the vibrant new realms and forced everyone to go back to the less vibrant dying east. After years and years and years of the east controlling Dwilight politics the west would have been able to steer it into a new arena. Alas, that is gone and will probably never rise again.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on November 22, 2014, 02:39:55 AM
I just hope that the devs learn from the mistakes made and what worked well and what didn't work well. Like I said before, I don't really blame them for the choice but it could have been better implemented.

What Dwighlight really needs is a better map, but I recognize that is a lot of work and would probably have pissed off even more people. Dunno how easy (easier, anyway) it would have been to fill in much of the central sea though.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Wolfsong on November 22, 2014, 04:21:18 AM
What Dwilight needs now is to just be sunk. The same goes for all of the other islands - sink everything but one island, centralize play there, start over afresh. These half-assed measures killed Dwilight, when it had been doing pretty alright beforehand.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 22, 2014, 04:30:03 AM
What Dwilight needs now is to just be sunk. The same goes for all of the other islands - sink everything but one island, centralize play there, start over afresh. These half-assed measures killed Dwilight, when it had been doing pretty alright beforehand.

I would agree with this fully.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Wolfang on November 22, 2014, 05:05:19 PM
From 281 to 186  players  :o

I think most people stopped playing because the 'invasion' towards the East was a big joke that was impossible to achieve. First have to fight your way out of monster-filled land and then take over a city in the east. Ain't gonna happen as the instinctive knee jerk reaction of any eastern realm is 'smash invaders, lol they can't reinforce anyways'. Manage to get captured? Get teleported back west into monster filled lands. One angry player even posted on the forum Barca was going to attack LN long before we had were even ready to leave the west.
At least I saw Barca get a toehold in the east before I quit, trying to achieve something when !@#$ is constantly thrown in your direction isn't 'fun', try playing with 0 gold, 0 troops, 0 mobility for months. Look at Barca now, from 40+ down to 12 players... Sad to see. I remember Asylon and Barca (edit oh and Astrum too) wiki pages were pretty much the only realms on Dwilight actively updating their pages.

Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on November 22, 2014, 05:28:33 PM
8 players actually. We have a ghost, one who is somewhere to the north to join another realm, and one conveniently autopaused right after his unit was decimated in the battle of Aveston.

Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 22, 2014, 05:49:28 PM
I'm sorry, but your math is still wrong. It should be 195 not 186.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Ossan on November 22, 2014, 06:02:54 PM
I'm sorry, but your math is still wrong. It should be 195 not 186.
You are correct, fixed thank you.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 22, 2014, 06:26:55 PM
The nobles of Asylon went from a very vocal and active bunch to a split and silent bunch. I hardly talk with any of the previous players I interacted with before, we went from a group of active squabbling players with tonnes of RP to a shattered and silent group of individuals trying to rebuild. If that was the purpose of the change... It succeeded wildly.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Antonine on November 22, 2014, 11:01:42 PM
I tend to agree that the best thing would have been to sink the eastern half and leave the western half.

However, what's done is done and we have to live with it. A major problem with Dwilight at the moment is that Morek is severely depopulated and Luria Nova is vastly overpopulated. How you fix it I don't know but I do think that a fundamental problem with Dwilight is its geography. Things could be improved if Morek was replaced by multiple, smaller realms to bring conflict to the area but there's really no IC reason for anyone to do that.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 23, 2014, 12:05:00 AM
Here's an IC reason: power. Anyone who is somewhere and not in power can go carve themselves a new kingdom out of Morek. If they really are so underpopulated, then you should be able to do it.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Antonine on November 23, 2014, 12:35:44 AM
In theory, yes. But unfortunately the only realm with a surplus of nobles right now is Luria and they're all busy with the war.

In the long term they might migrate out but, then again, it tends to be the case that densely populated realms are more fun so characters tend not to leave them.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 23, 2014, 02:20:36 AM
The painful reality of Dwilight without the west is that it will eternally be locked in a north vs south conflict forever. Far-east continent part 2
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 23, 2014, 02:25:43 AM
Not sure why Tom created long and narrow islands for BM while preventing realms from attacking far away.

I doubt even he saw it would cause stagnation. Maybe what we need is a new island which look more like south island in shape than east continent(dwilight is pretty much east continent except worse I think since there are mountains blocking the way in the center).
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: trying on November 23, 2014, 02:51:42 AM
Tom did say he thought creating Dwilight was one of his biggest mistakes.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 23, 2014, 03:22:26 AM
Tom did say he thought creating Dwilight was one of his biggest mistakes.

Dwilight was actually one of the most successful continents right up until the monster invasion. Besides that, the map wasn't an issue until half of it was cut out.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2014, 03:41:23 AM
I proposed, some time back, to merge all of the continents. I even made an example map, posted somewhere on the forums.

It would likely be a major code overgault, but the continents actually tend to fit nicely into each other, and would mostly solve the issues of linear continents and limited opportunities.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 23, 2014, 05:14:36 AM
Well I think the simplest solution is to remove the long distance penalty for now. This would allow realms to interact with all other realms. There are enough penalties I think. Equipment damage and being unable to convert bonds to gold except in your cities alone should be enough to make a long distance campaign difficult. If you really make it want to actually feel like a difficult campaign, why not just make the morale loss when you lose a battle more great instead?

I think it might need a drastic change to make things more lively. But I doubt it will be possible with only Tim working. He already has to fix bugs and work on WIP he proposed.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 23, 2014, 03:49:59 PM
Well I think the simplest solution is to remove the long distance penalty for now. This would allow realms to interact with all other realms. There are enough penalties I think. Equipment damage and being unable to convert bonds to gold except in your cities alone should be enough to make a long distance campaign difficult. If you really make it want to actually feel like a difficult campaign, why not just make the morale loss when you lose a battle more great instead?

I think it might need a drastic change to make things more lively. But I doubt it will be possible with only Tim working. He already has to fix bugs and work on WIP he proposed.

I don't think that'll solve much. Fighting a battle per month, and spending the rest travelling, is not really fun. Plus gold becomes problematic as well.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 24, 2014, 08:28:21 AM
People keep saying, "we really should have done X instead of Y. It would have been so much better!" The fact is that this is nothing more than a combination of whining, guess work and assumptions. No one can really prove that doing X would have worked better than Y but that does not seem to stop people from acting like it is universally accepted fact. Seriously, If we had done  (whatever version of X you favor) instead of Y (what was done), I bet we would just have a different group of people complaining. Of course, I can not prove this any more than any of you can prove that X would have been so much better than Y.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 24, 2014, 09:19:55 AM
We don't know if X would be of any success, but we know for sure Y was a disaster more or less.
That being said, I agree that we should all move on as a community. And that's what the previous posters were trying to do by coming up with constructive ideas.
So please stop dragging it on, Scarborn.

On a somewhat related note, have the devs ever considered redesigning the continents? And not just cutting off slices, but actually forming a more "free-for-all" multiplayer map style landmass?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 24, 2014, 10:01:41 AM
Isn't the war island free for all island at the moment?

It would be nice if there was an island bigger than SI while making it FFA. No tangling alliances hehe
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 24, 2014, 11:07:44 AM
So please stop dragging it on, Scarborn.

Sure.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 24, 2014, 11:18:12 AM
I would rather not be at war with all other nations at all times. Not sure how it would make the game better either.

I am also like the idea of making long range attacks more doable and think that bringing the islands "closer together" would be awesome. I am not sure if either of these would help the player density problem though - though they might.

The density problem is really a very tough one. Given the resources available to the devs there is not a whole lot that can be done that will give quick results. I really think that focusing on making the game as fun as possible with focus on ease of use, player empowerment and beginner friendliness is the best thing to do. Not that this is some groundbreaking insight - everyone knows all this already. It just helps me to remember that this is a volunteer driven project with very limited resources and that patience is essential.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 12:52:26 PM
I'll bring up the map I had  done again. As you can see, with only minor adjustments, most continents tend to fit into each other quite well.

That's just a quick paint job, though, details could be improved.

Continents would be separated by small sea zones, though physically merging some, in some areas, would probably be a good idea as well.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 24, 2014, 01:32:15 PM
That looks like a lot of fun. Unlikely to ever happen but very cool. I was just thinking of leaving the islands as they are and just adding inter-island communication, religions, guilds, realms and the like. Just as unlikely to happen.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 24, 2014, 01:35:01 PM
That looks like a lot of fun. Unlikely to ever happen but very cool. I was just thinking of leaving the islands as they are and just adding inter-island communication, religions, guilds, realms and the like. Just as unlikely to happen.

I just realized just how very negative this sounds. Not my intent!
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 24, 2014, 01:48:48 PM
Isn't the war island free for all island at the moment?
It is. But I was talking solely about map design not about gameplay philosophy.
I mean, I am currently planning to start playing on BT and just looking at it I can say that it has some very unfortunate design flaws. Like I can't see myself joining Riombara because it was by design destined to geopolitical boredom, although I am sure it has lots of great players there. Northern part is designed well though and I can see most intrigue happening there.
Dwilight "sausage" shape could use a massive tweak as well.
I would rather not be at war with all other nations at all times. Not sure how it would make the game better either.
I agree. But I would like not being at war with most other nations being achieved by diplomacy and intrigue, not just by being situated out of everyone's reach or behind a bottleneck.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 24, 2014, 02:40:25 PM
It is. But I was talking solely about map design not about gameplay philosophy.
I mean, I am currently planning to start playing on BT and just looking at it I can say that it has some very unfortunate design flaws. Like I can't see myself joining Riombara because it was by design destined to geopolitical boredom, although I am sure it has lots of great players there. Northern part is designed well though and I can see most intrigue happening there.
Dwilight "sausage" shape could use a massive tweak as well.I agree. But I would like not being at war with most other nations being achieved by diplomacy and intrigue, not just by being situated out of everyone's reach or behind a bottleneck.

Perhaps I  misunderstand what you are saying here, but none of this, aside from the the shape of Dwilight is "designed"...  I think that it is well within the power of us players to change these things (again, aside from the shape of Dwilight).
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
Many of the continents' geographies are detrimental to gameplay. They are too linear, which minimizes the number of neighbors each realm has and their proximity to other realms. BT's main geographic problem is Riombara, which has a ton of very wealthy cities packed together, forever away from anyone else.

Merging the continents is the only method of increasing opportunity. In the example I provided, Riombara would become just a sea zone away from D'Hara, Fissoa, and Cagilan Empire. Keeping a part of the land mass north of CE's river would also allow for a diminished Talerium there. Even Luria and Stromban would become about as close to Rio as Melhed currently is, which is currently the minimum distance Rio has to travel to do anything. Astrum would gain Thalmarkin, AA, and Melhed as neighbors. Swordfell would gain Obsidian Islands (and though I had removed it in that map, I think Perdan should remain as well). Morek would gain Obsidian Islands, Whetham, Lukon, and Oritolon. Aran and Minas Thalion would gain Nivemus. Coralynth would gain Caligus and Sirion, Ohnar West would gain Caligus as well. South-west FEI would gain access to South-East Atamara. And so on.

Note that I did that map long ago. With hindsight, I'd remove less landmass than I thought of back then, namely to reduce the large inner seas and avoid completely removing realms for no reason (such as Cathay).
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 24, 2014, 02:55:05 PM
On a somewhat related note, have the devs ever considered redesigning the continents?
Yes. It's a ridiculously huge amount of work. Dwilight only happened because it was a community effort. The map design, region naming, initial stats, and a few other things were all community-driven efforts. But even after all that, there was still a very large amount of work that had to be done to get the entire thing ready for play.

Anaris had some ideas for a more dynamic map that would be adaptable to dynamic changes. Unfortunately, his work load with the game is already too high. Pretty much every other volunteer coder contributes for a short while, and then fades away.

Quote
And not just cutting off slices, but actually forming a more "free-for-all" multiplayer map style landmass?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean some kind of symmetrical war island, designed for X number of predefined teams? Kind of like the war island we have now, but more than 3 realms?


I would rather not be at war with all other nations at all times. Not sure how it would make the game better either.
It's a refreshing change from the constant politics-drive, all-for-me attitude that has infected a large portion of the game. BattleMaster works best as a team-style game. Too much of the game has lost that team feeling.

Quote
I am also like the idea of making long range attacks more doable and think that bringing the islands "closer together" would be awesome. I am not sure if either of these would help the player density problem though - though they might.
As others have said, too much long-range warfare gets really boring. Marching for 10 days to make one or two attacks, or loot one region, then march 10-12 days back home, refit, and do it again... that about one big battle a month. And by the time you get back, your enemy has mostly fixed all the damage you did. That style warfare doesn't really hold your attention all that long.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 03:02:43 PM
Yes. It's a ridiculously huge amount of work. Dwilight only happened because it was a community effort. The map design, region naming, initial stats, and a few other things were all community-driven efforts. But even after all that, there was still a very large amount of work that had to be done to get the entire thing ready for play.

But we already have most of that. All regions have their ID, they all have their stats, they all have their name, they are all drawn out in vector format for the dynamic maps, and so on.

It would certainly require a lot of work, still, but not all of the work that was required for Dwilight would be required to do this. Namely, no new land would really need to be drawn out, because we'd just be taking what's already done.

And if we set that as a goal, why couldn't merging the continents be a community effort as well?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on November 24, 2014, 03:47:09 PM
Merging all the continents would create a different set of problems. Just off the top of my head, how would you handle characters with the same name? And how would you implement character limits? Right now, you can significantly limit the amount of influence one player can have by preventing them from having more than 1 or 2 chars per island. If all the islands were one, how would you handle that?

I do have plans to improve island geography; however, I don't think people would be very happy in general if I just swooped in and completely rewrote their islands, any more than they were about the Ice Age.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 04:29:14 PM
Merging all the continents would create a different set of problems. Just off the top of my head, how would you handle characters with the same name? And how would you implement character limits? Right now, you can significantly limit the amount of influence one player can have by preventing them from having more than 1 or 2 chars per island. If all the islands were one, how would you handle that?

I do have plans to improve island geography; however, I don't think people would be very happy in general if I just swooped in and completely rewrote their islands, any more than they were about the Ice Age.

Things that do involve some thought and discussion.

The name issue has already started coming up, as it is problematic when one wants to emigrate to a continent where the name is already used. A few suggestions have been proposed, such as allowing patronyms or middle names. Personally, I don't really see identical names as being a problem, as everyone has a unique family name, which is shown everywhere. And identical names are a RL reality which people manage. Plus we have a ton of titles to help. If we have a Katherine Johnson, queen of Johnyland, and Katherine Bobson, marquess of Smallgrad in Bobbyland, one can say "Marquess Katherine", "Queen Katherine", "Katherine Johnson", "Katherine Bobson", "Katherine of Johnyland", and so on, without every creating any confusion. And people already mostly use titles when naming someone.

Character and title limits would require more thought and discussion, I believe. There are many options to handle this:

I do have plans to improve island geography; however, I don't think people would be very happy in general if I just swooped in and completely rewrote their islands, any more than they were about the Ice Age.

No, of course not. But the continents could be merged with very minimal redrawing of the continents themselves, as they mostly fit into each other quite nicely. While I did remove some land masses on the concept map I shared, I now consider that most of the land that was erased (that wasn't already targeted by the freezing) would not need to be removed at all.


Additionally, to further increase inter-connectivity, I would surround the merged continents with portal islands, which could basically be the Lendan Stones island (a portal region and a small stronghold region, though I really think strongholds need to be allowed to have harbors, and the portal region would be non-TOable). One such island would be placed in the in the sea between Caelum and IVF (BT), on the sea between Spearhold and Thalmarkin (BT), merged with that pre-existing stronghold in Astrum (Dwi), between Colonies and EC, in the Dwi-EC-AT sea, between FEI and AT, and gapping AT and BT. 7 portals total (or up to 10). To use them, one would just need to travel to the portal region, and then from there, he could travel to any other portal region through normal mechanics, with travel time fixed to 40 hours regardless of actual distance. This would allow to compensate for the limits of normal geography, which would impose edges. With these portal regions, there would essentially no longer be edges. The northernmost realms would not have half of their realm face nothingness, southern realms could attack them through the portals. Same for West and East. All realms, regardless of their geography, would have close proximity to a much greater number of realms.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 24, 2014, 04:35:58 PM
Perhaps I  misunderstand what you are saying here, but none of this, aside from the the shape of Dwilight is "designed"
Well, yeah. That's why I noted I was talking specifically about map design.
Not sure what the misunderstanding was about.
Merging the continents is the only method of increasing opportunity.
I'm not a fan of that idea.
Apart from Anaris already mentioned, different continents currently have different rules (SMA, 1 turn/day) which I'd loathe to see abolished.
Do you mean some kind of symmetrical war island, designed for X number of predefined teams? Kind of like the war island we have now, but more than 3 realms?
Not at all. I'm only talking about eliminating obvious flaws like the aforementioned Riombara peninsula or Dwilight's unfortunate shape.
I do have plans to improve island geography; however, I don't think people would be very happy in general if I just swooped in and completely rewrote their islands, any more than they were about the Ice Age.
I think there will be a big difference here: everyone will be on the same page, so players would not feel being unfairly screwed.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on November 24, 2014, 04:52:46 PM
I think there will be a big difference here: everyone will be on the same page, so players would not feel being unfairly screwed.

I don't think you understand what makes people upset about this kind of thing at all.

First of all, no, everyone would not be on the same page. Just because you think it's a good idea doesn't mean everyone would, nor even that everyone would understand just what was happening.

Second of all, everyone would not be getting equal treatment, simply because that's totally impossible when restructuring maps in any way. One realm would have essentially no change, while another would suddenly have three other realms bordering theirs—which, depending on the relative sizes of the realms, could be a benefit or a serious detriment.

In short, it really is not possible to make any kind of major change to the way continents are structured—either merging or redrawing—without there being massive complaining, and probably a lot of people leaving the game.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 05:03:01 PM
Apart from Anaris already mentioned, different continents currently have different rules (SMA, 1 turn/day) which I'd loathe to see abolished.Not at all. I'm only talking about eliminating obvious flaws

I think it'd be possible to keep most of this.

As it is, I think each continent has its database, and its own special rules. Merging the continents might bring it all into the same database, but there would be an extra column for "continent". If it wouldn't be possible to have some continents as testing and others as stable (except of SI is kept apart and made into testing), it would be possible to apply different rules. Mid-turn could simply not occur to characters in regions where CONTINENT_ID=6 (Colonies). My understanding of the code is that this would be possible, and it could be RPed as the days being so short (arctic continent, atmosphere, magic) that there really is only 8 hours of sunlight per day there. 1 character-per-continent could be applied on a realm-basis, as previously mentioned, where one cannot join a realm who has its capital on Dwilight if one already has a character there. One could *travel* there, but not join the realms. SMA... while I don't feel like it has been applied in any significant manner in quite a long time, nothing would prevent us from maintaining these rules on a regional basis.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on November 24, 2014, 05:40:47 PM
Quote
Merging the continents might bring it all into the same database, but there would be an extra column for "continent".

An extra column in every single table??

No. If this were to happen, it could not maintain the true separation of continents in any fundamental way.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 05:52:04 PM
An extra column in every single table??

No. If this were to happen, it could not maintain the true separation of continents in any fundamental way.

I'm not *that* familiar with your databases, so I have no idea how many tables you do have.

I imagine that you would only need a single table to hold all region data. Other tables would be... what? Characters? Realms? I presume that whenever continent matters to characters, realms, or anything else, it could just look up the region table, no?

For example, say we want players to only hold titles in one realm per continent. When that player tries to gain a new government title, the game would check the character table to see what realm all of his characters are attached to. Then, it would check the realm table to see what capitals these realms have. Then, it would look up the regions table to see what continent that capital region belongs to, thus, identifying what continent each character belongs to. It would then apply the rules and determine if the desired action (such as running in an election) is possible or not.

Would this work?

Again, I've never actually seen BM's code or databases. I do understand, however, that redundant data is bad.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 24, 2014, 06:30:14 PM
While I like the idea of a large continent with lots of realms, I have to say that I don't like the merging idea. It would be fiendishly complex process, prone to an insane amount of bugs. It would also require the addition of all kinds of crazy regional restrictions due to council members, lordships, duchies, and other such things.

And on top of all that, you'd completely upset the political landscape of every island. At this point, that would be the death of the game. We'd be better off just closing the world, and opening BattleMaster 2.0.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 06:42:01 PM
While I like the idea of a large continent with lots of realms, I have to say that I don't like the merging idea. It would be fiendishly complex process, prone to an insane amount of bugs. It would also require the addition of all kinds of crazy regional restrictions due to council members, lordships, duchies, and other such things.

And on top of all that, you'd completely upset the political landscape of every island. At this point, that would be the death of the game. We'd be better off just closing the world, and opening BattleMaster 2.0.

I think you are being a bit drastic, there.

People have complained about the lack of opportunities on AT since forever. Last time I was on colonies, people complained about the same thing, where one realm/empire had won over everyone. I just left FEI in exactly the same situation, with an empire having won over everyone. On Dwilight, everyone complains about the geography and lack of possibilities. There too, Luria is a behemoth than not even the rest of the continent combined can counter. On BT, everyone agrees that Rio's situation is ridiculous, and the last torture reports I had of Rio nobles showed that they didn't like that situation themselves. I hear similar complaints for EC.

None of the continents, in their current form, seem to please the player base. The desire for greater proximity seems like a consensus to me. Cut up realms into pieces, and players of that realm will be unhappy. Bring realms closer to each other? Not so much. These new neighbors don't need to be enemies. And they represent mutual opportunities, both for support and expansion.

Should such a change be imposed unilaterally? Perhaps not. Sending a survey to the players would be a good idea. I think most would be favorable to the idea, if they understand that we won't be drastically modifying the continents themselves, just mostly bringing them within reach of each other.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 24, 2014, 07:04:54 PM
Or open a new continent, balanced, ironed-out and pristine. :3
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 24, 2014, 07:12:53 PM
I think you are being a bit drastic, there.
I don't think I'm being too unrealistic in the end result. You're talking about major political upheaval across the entire game. You're going to upset the balance of every island. While I agree that some upheaval may be needed, this kind of forced upheaval is not the way to go. I think you'd really have better luck just closing most of the islands, and starting over.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 24, 2014, 07:16:52 PM
Or open a new continent, balanced, ironed-out and pristine. :3
So, you're answer to a sparsely populated, thinned-out landscape is to open a brand new island, and thin out everything even more?

I'm not against the general idea of some kind of fresh start myself, but the only way it would work would be to have it accompany the closing of multiple existing islands.

Like, say, close Dwilight, BT, and FEI, then allow all of those characters the opportunity to emigrate to a new island X, who's landmass has approximately half the regions of those three islands put together.

This would mean, of course, the permanent death of those islands. If they ever got re-opened, which I don't think is likely, they would be a clean, blank slate.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: trying on November 24, 2014, 07:30:46 PM
I would really like to see some kind of EC and AT showdown but combining Dwi, BT, and FEI would be better for the game overall.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 24, 2014, 07:57:38 PM
Well not too sure about combining islands(sounds like more work than creating a new one actually. Merging all islands into a single database? That sounds TOO much work).

I am not sure what Anaris's plan is but I am sure it is much better than the current design. Either way, we need to find a way to shut some islands down I think. Like FEI. After Arcaea's victory, the island seems to be dying. Might as well say you won and wipe the island off.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 24, 2014, 08:14:31 PM
I don't think I'm being too unrealistic in the end result. You're talking about major political upheaval across the entire game. You're going to upset the balance of every island. While I agree that some upheaval may be needed, this kind of forced upheaval is not the way to go. I think you'd really have better luck just closing most of the islands, and starting over.

I disagree. Most of the actions taken thus far have roughly been Devs picking off realms, and telling players to adapt. That pissed off players, because they had little say in it. One couldn't talk the monsters into not invading, or the glaciers into not moving. Move continents close to each other, and players have 100% of the say in what happens.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 08:31:51 AM
I agree completely with Anaris: no matter how you go about it, any major change like those proposed here will result in complaints, loss of players (hopefully short term) and accusations of preferential treatment.

I also think Indirik presents a reasonable approach: If such major changes are desired/needed/accepted, it might be better to start from scratch. Instead of changing existing islands or merging them, create a new one, have others migrate to it, then close the old ones. If a combined world is desired, just create one new world-island and have all characters migrate to it, then close all islands.

I also see Constantine's point: The layout of a map probably has a huge influence in how things play out and what war opportunities there may be. On the flip side, if players discover geographically advantageous positions, why are they not fighting like mad for possession? Are these positions so advantageous that there is no hope at all?

Also, even if we started changing geography in an attempt to "even the playing field", it is nearly guaranteed that different geographically advantageous positions will be found. Then we would have to change things again and they cycle would repeat. Now, however, players are constantly frustrated because their city just turned into a rural region and that damn mountain keeps moving. I still believe that, though some geography might lend itself to combat more than others, it is ultimately up to the players to make pick fights and make things fun.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 25, 2014, 08:54:21 AM
So, you're answer to a sparsely populated, thinned-out landscape is to open a brand new island, and thin out everything even more?
Not exactly.
Firstly, if we take into account the current decrease in playerbase, we can design a smaller continent to actually improve the noble density. It would be easier to enlarge the landmass later if it ever gets overpopulated than decrease it.
Secondly, if we enforce a 1 noble per continent rule for all continents, we will populate a new server in a few days.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 25, 2014, 08:58:43 AM
I also see Constantine's point: The layout of a map probably has a huge influence in how things play out and what war opportunities there may be. On the flip side, if players discover geographically advantageous positions, why are they not fighting like mad for possession?
Such positions are sort of advantageous if they were real countries.
Gameplay wise they are a dead end.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 08:59:53 AM
Has anyone considered trying to implement mutable regions?

For example:
* All regions start as Mountain or Other.
* Mountains can not change and have set stats like today.
* All other regions have six sets of base stats, one each for Badlands, Rural, Woodland, Townsland, Stronghold, and City
* The climate, location and "wetness" of a region as well as some potential random factor create it's base type
* A region, without player effort will slowly revert to it's base type
* The further a region is taken from it's base type the more effort it required to maintain it at it's new type.
* All regions start as their base type but can be changed by player action
* This way a Bad Land or Wood Land can be made Rural and Rural could become Badland or Woodland
* A Rural can also be converted to a Townsland or Stronghold and a Townsland can become a City.
* Likewise a City can become a Townsland and a Townsland or Stronghold can revert to Rural which can then become Badlands or Woodland.
* Actions could be introduced that players can use to change region types but some changes might be secondary in nature (overpopulate a Rural while not importing enough food will cause it to become Badlands for example)

I think that the main benefit to such a system is that players can then combat and create geographically advantageous positions without much dev intervention. Also, the dev's can make adjustments if needed in a fairly unobtrusive way: Too many cities in one ares? Don't blast the city off the face of the planet, just change that regions base type. The player can still keep their city if they are willing to put the work into it and even if they choose not to the city will slowly change to it's new base type giving them time to adjust.

Of course, this would be a major change and would require a library of "maps" to create the entire map and a single content's region information database would become five times as large as it is now. Just thought I would throw the idea out there though!
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 09:03:21 AM
Such positions are sort of advantageous if they were real countries.
Gameplay wise they are a dead end.

So you guy's think that realms like Luria and Rio have such geographically advantageous positions that it is now impossible for other realms to deprive them of that advantage?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Constantine on November 25, 2014, 10:17:19 AM
So you guy's think that realms like Luria and Rio have such geographically advantageous positions that it is now impossible for other realms to deprive them of that advantage?
I never said it was impossible with Rio. I said it was worthless. That territory is geopolitical backwater because it is so remote and behind a bottleneck. There will never be action there.
Luria, on the other hand, is on the contrary in a very lucrative place. Hence the abundance of conflict around it and intrigue inside it.

Basically, it would be ideal for the maps to be designed in such a way that rich provinces/cities were few and far between and always in very open and vulnerable positions (hence my FFA sentiment). So the stronger a realm gets, the more vulnerable from all sides it also becomes.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Has anyone considered trying to implement mutable regions?

For example:
* All regions start as Mountain or Other.
* Mountains can not change and have set stats like today.
* All other regions have six sets of base stats, one each for Badlands, Rural, Woodland, Townsland, Stronghold, and City
* The climate, location and "wetness" of a region as well as some potential random factor create it's base type
* A region, without player effort will slowly revert to it's base type
* The further a region is taken from it's base type the more effort it required to maintain it at it's new type.
* All regions start as their base type but can be changed by player action
* This way a Bad Land or Wood Land can be made Rural and Rural could become Badland or Woodland
* A Rural can also be converted to a Townsland or Stronghold and a Townsland can become a City.
* Likewise a City can become a Townsland and a Townsland or Stronghold can revert to Rural which can then become Badlands or Woodland.
* Actions could be introduced that players can use to change region types but some changes might be secondary in nature (overpopulate a Rural while not importing enough food will cause it to become Badlands for example)

I think that the main benefit to such a system is that players can then combat and create geographically advantageous positions without much dev intervention. Also, the dev's can make adjustments if needed in a fairly unobtrusive way: Too many cities in one ares? Don't blast the city off the face of the planet, just change that regions base type. The player can still keep their city if they are willing to put the work into it and even if they choose not to the city will slowly change to it's new base type giving them time to adjust.

Of course, this would be a major change and would require a library of "maps" to create the entire map and a single content's region information database would become five times as large as it is now. Just thought I would throw the idea out there though!

That's impossible with the current maps, but I think it would be possible with a few changes.

Here's an example of using textured polygons: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Ja4LBEKg-8Y3Bod3p2d20zVG8/view?usp=sharing

Some textures would need improving, but still. That looks a lot like what we have (I didn't bother uploading an ice texture because these regions are lost).

If we were to switch to textured polygons maps, changing the maps (adding regions, removing them, enlarging them, merging continents) would become much, much simpler, and it would become possible to accomplish one of M&M's dreams, player-driven landscape. Regions could all start as mountains, hills, badlands, and forests, and players would have the option to chop down the forests, turn them into rurals, then into towns, and install settlements on them. Cities would essentially become icons added on top of the map, instead of being the region "type". Then, it'd be up to the players to manage their realm: too many cities and getting a really large one would be difficult, keeping too few rurals and feeding the cities would become difficult, and so on.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 02:14:14 PM
I would actually be totally possible with a series of png images. Each image is the same size XXXX by XXXX and the entire image is transparent except for one region. Each region has five such images - one for each potential region type. These are layers. To create the full map just pick one image of each region and merge them together. Now you have a single image of a full map. If a region changes type, throw the picture of that region of that type on top and merge again and you have a new world map. Then just change that region's stats in the database.

Of course, this is not saying it would be easy or even worthwhile. Just an idea I had...
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 02:21:58 PM
Just wanted to point out two things:

1. I do not assume that the idea I proposed as I proposed it is a GOOD idea. It might be, and it might also be a BAD idea.
2. A scaled down version might also be worth considering. Each region can have a township, stronghold or city built on it or torn down. nothing more or less.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: vonGenf on November 25, 2014, 03:00:42 PM
* A Rural can also be converted to a Townsland or Stronghold and a Townsland can become a City.
* Likewise a City can become a Townsland and a Townsland or Stronghold can revert to Rural which can then become Badlands or Woodland.
* Actions could be introduced that players can use to change region types but some changes might be secondary in nature (overpopulate a Rural while not importing enough food will cause it to become Badlands for example)

So that a realm can increase its tax base by signing peace with everyone and micromanaging its regions? No thanks - if a realm wants more cities, it should have to grab them from its neighbour. I like that the map is fixed - it's the politics that is not fixed, and that's where the fun is.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2014, 03:10:05 PM
So that a realm can increase its tax base by signing peace with everyone and micromanaging its regions? No thanks - if a realm wants more cities, it should have to grab them from its neighbour. I like that the map is fixed - it's the politics that is not fixed, and that's where the fun is.

Too many cities, not enough rurals, and they'll starve. Realms that want to be wealthy need to be big, I don't think dynamic terrain would change this one way or another.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 03:16:05 PM
So that a realm can increase its tax base by signing peace with everyone and micromanaging its regions? No thanks - if a realm wants more cities, it should have to grab them from its neighbour. I like that the map is fixed - it's the politics that is not fixed, and that's where the fun is.

I totally get this. I would point out that such enhancements could be built and destroyed. If you do not want your neighbor to have a 4th city, get in there ans stop him! I also never specified that it should be easy either. Creation should, in my mind, be challenging and time consuming and destruction should be easier than construction.

Also, to tie this in to the whole "the existing geography makes fun gameplay and we should change it" discussion, the entire point is to make balancing such things possible by players and  alleviate the need for devs to go in and make changes to static maps that will certainly piss a lot of people off.

That being said, I like things more or less as they are. I am still unconvinced that it is beyond the ability of players to make this game fun. Even with places like Rio reportedly is... Imagination and the willingness to take risks will take the more competent of our players a long ways (I am not including myself in that group).
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2014, 03:38:02 PM
So that a realm can increase its tax base by signing peace with everyone and micromanaging its regions? No thanks - if a realm wants more cities, it should have to grab them from its neighbour. I like that the map is fixed - it's the politics that is not fixed, and that's where the fun is.

Furthermore, the current maps have a ton of faults that it'd be hard to make worse. The cities are often clustered, which means that after an unstable colonization phase, they are usually always held by the same powers, save for short transition periods during secessions. Luria Nova is a good example, it's a ton of super rich cities all clustered together, with vast plains, deserts, mountains, and sees to separate from everyone else. This kind of geography is overpowering, and you see this pattern repeated everywhere.

Dwi: Luria Nova, cluster of cities with great geographic barriers around, can take on the whole continent. If you think of Fissoa, though, it's only got one tiny cluster, basically no capital choice. Taking another city is impossible, because they are way too far. Politics don't matter much, they'll never become a superpower.
FEI: Arcaea, cluster of cities, took over the continent. If you think of Coralynth, the sole city is far off in a remote island. They have no alternative capitals. The other cities are so far away, that they can never aspire to become a superpower, even if they were filled with nobles and super active.
Colonies: much more balanced geography, cities are generally equidistant, realms are generally the same size.
BT: Rines, Grehk, and Athol Margos have, for almost all of BT, been in the hands of the same realm, Riombara. Invasions aside, of course. The map changes !@#$ed things even further, though. BT had generally rather good geography, but by taking Fengen and Enweilieos out (and completely depopulating Ete), it made it completely impossible to install a viable neighbor.  With the destruction of its neighbors, and the screwing of the geography, the full South-East cluster could be complete, with the addition of Irombro, Jidington, and Eylmon. This creates an unstoppable behemoth, Rio's economic indicators are off the chart. But Grehk is the only viable capital. They are surrounded by vast barriers as well, and so the limits between them and their neighbors are somewhat fixed and independant of politics, much like Luria Nova.
AT: The fact that AT and BT use the same base map is really a great determination of how deterministic geography can be. Current AT and pre-invasion BT share almost the same realm borders. Except with fewer realms.
FEI: Also follows the major trends, most realm borders follow geographic barriers.


As it is, what realms are powerful and what realms aren't isn't firstly a factor of politics, it's a factor of geography. The way the continents were made, some spots are MADE to host superpowers, and others are INCAPABLE of holding them.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Eldargard on November 25, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Well, isn't it likely that players will find good positions on any map you make? Are you guys confident that a map can be made that will be truly, utterly and perfectly fair?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2014, 03:48:01 PM
Well, isn't it likely that players will find good positions on any map you make? Are you guys confident that a map can be made that will be truly, utterly and perfectly fair?

Utterly and perfectly? Perhaps not. But these trends are not as strong on Colonies, AT, and SI as they are on the new BT, EC, FEI, and Dwi.

A larger (and rounder) map, with less major geographic barriers, and a possibility to set up cities anywhere, would greatly lessen the deterministic effect of geography.

My previous suggestion, a few posts above, of portal regions would also be a good element to counter the impact of geography, by partly nullifying the edge effect.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: vonGenf on November 25, 2014, 04:23:25 PM
As it is, what realms are powerful and what realms aren't isn't firstly a factor of politics, it's a factor of geography. The way the continents were made, some spots are MADE to host superpowers, and others are INCAPABLE of holding them.

For Beluaterra, I'll agree with you that the deletion basically froze the situation in a bad place. It was mostly a good geography before but a wide swath was deleted right in the middle.

But, hey it could have been worse. It could have been that Ete was deleted but Eno remained. :-)

For the other continents, however, it doesn't follow from your analysis that there is anything unfair. Sure, the Giask-Askileon area is a natural spot for a super power - but why is that that it's Luria that lives there? Because the players in that area have created a culture that, in its current incarnation, calls for a united realm. In the past it's been pretty disunited, and when it was it was a hotspot of warfare that, from what I gathered, has been fun to play for those present and even those outside.

Sure, you'll always get a concentration of power in that area, but that's good. Do you want to play in the heartland of a large culture? Create a knight in Giask. Do you want to play in a place with more of a frontier feeling? Create a knight in Caelum.

Compare it to the realm world. Powers ebbed and flowed, but there were places that have always been centers of power through the ages without much change. Take the Northern France-Flanders-Netherlands area for example - it's always been a cluster of cities. In Charlemagne times it was the center of his empire - an unassailable core. In time it changed, it's been split between different powers and then reunited many times, but the cluster always remained. It's not the map that changes, it's the powers.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2014, 04:37:22 PM
For Beluaterra, I'll agree with you that the deletion basically froze the situation in a bad place. It was mostly a good geography before but a wide swath was deleted right in the middle.

But, hey it could have been worse. It could have been that Ete was deleted but Eno remained. :-)

Eno would have been able to secede and pose a threat to the rest of Riombara, at least, if it took Jidington, Eylmon, and Irombro along with it...

For the other continents, however, it doesn't follow from your analysis that there is anything unfair. Sure, the Giask-Askileon area is a natural spot for a super power - but why is that that it's Luria that lives there? Because the players in that area have created a culture that, in its current incarnation, calls for a united realm. In the past it's been pretty disunited, and when it was it was a hotspot of warfare that, from what I gathered, has been fun to play for those present and even those outside.

Sure, you'll always get a concentration of power in that area, but that's good. Do you want to play in the heartland of a large culture? Create a knight in Giask. Do you want to play in a place with more of a frontier feeling? Create a knight in Caelum.

Compare it to the realm world. Powers ebbed and flowed, but there were places that have always been centers of power through the ages without much change. Take the Northern France-Flanders-Netherlands area for example - it's always been a cluster of cities. In Charlemagne times it was the center of his empire - an unassailable core. In time it changed, it's been split between different powers and then reunited many times, but the cluster always remained. It's not the map that changes, it's the powers.

Yes, Luria has numbers, which helps to its power. It basically makes it a vamped up Riombara.

And it's not just number of cities, it's quality. D'Hara is mostly cities, but nowhere near as wealthy as Luria Nova. Giask is twice as wealthy as Port Raviel. Askileon is also in the wealthiest regions, their townslands are richer than most cities.

Might be fun for Lurians, but for the rest...? Players seem to be getting tired of how pointless it all seems. The whole continent is united against Luria Nova, and no progress can be made. How can you say politics are important if such a huge coalition is meaningless?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 25, 2014, 04:46:47 PM
I don't think that dynamic region types are in the cards for BattleMaster. That's really a discussion that's going nowhere.

Luria Nova is a good example, it's a ton of super rich cities all clustered together, with vast plains, deserts, mountains, and sees to separate from everyone else. This kind of geography is overpowering, and you see this pattern repeated everywhere.
Very few maps work with low densities. Low densities create sprawling empires that dominate their neighbors and stagnate politics. High densities drive power struggles, conflicts, and the fracture of realms into smaller ones. Look at how BT was before the third invasion: We had quite a few smaller realms that were effectively city-states, sprinkled among the larger behemoths. We had so many city-states that they banded together in a mutual support group: The Ceded Cities Alliance (CCA). The land Rio is on now was occupied by: Riombara, Kingdom of Alluran, Luz de Bia, Irombrozia, and parts of Enweil. And just outside it we had the Republic of Fwuvoghor.

Luria Nova, in particular, is not just geography. It helps, but I don't think it's even the driving factor here. Luria Nova had several things going for it. In particular: Active, capable characters who are good at politics, know the game, and not afraid to take risks. The "Everyone v. Luria" helps, too. It creates an atmosphere that is fun for the realm at the bottom of the dog pile. This further drives activity and fun, and thus attracts more players to that realm. That's why Luria has, what, 58 characters now? It has the third highest character density in the game, behind Caergoth and Eponllyn. (Discounting one-region/tiny realms.) The very fact that everyone attacked them creates the kind of atmosphere that makes them able to stand against their enemies. It's not just geography. (FWIW: This is what happened in Astrum near the end, too. The three-pronged attack against Astrum caused all kinds of players to join us, swelling our ranks, and allowing us to stand them off. No one joined the rabid pack attacking us, they all joined the underdog.)

Quote
Dwi: If you think of Fissoa, though, it's only got one tiny cluster, basically no capital choice. Taking another city is impossible, because they are way too far. Politics don't matter much, they'll never become a superpower.
Mrh?
Fissoa has three cities and a stronghold, doesn't it?

Quote
FEI: Arcaea, cluster of cities, took over the continent. If you think of Coralynth, the sole city is far off in a remote island. They have no alternative capitals. The other cities are so far away, that they can never aspire to become a superpower, even if they were filled with nobles and super active.
FEI in general has a lot of cities. You're right about Coralynth. But the rest of the island has plenty of cities able to stand up to external enemies. Arcaea's cities did help. But they also had exceptionally good politics, a successful long-term plan, and more than a bit of opportunism.

Quote
BT: Rines, Grehk, and Athol Margos have, for almost all of BT, been in the hands of the same realm, Riombara. Invasions aside, of course. The map changes !@#$ed things even further, though.
No argument here. BT is screwed up, big time. The south is essentially unplayable. That's why all the action is in the north.

Quote
...most realm borders follow geographic barriers.
This shouldn't be any kind of shocking revelation. This is what anyone would expect. This is both a political and strategic behavior. It's easy for people to say thing like "We'll take the lands east of the ReallyTall Mountains, and you have the west". Or "We get all the lands this side of Wide River". Terrain like rivers and mountains form natural barriers to travel and the projection of power.

Quote
As it is, what realms are powerful and what realms aren't isn't firstly a factor of politics, it's a factor of geography. The way the continents were made, some spots are MADE to host superpowers, and others are INCAPABLE of holding them.
There is some truth in this. All areas of the continents are intentionally not equal. There are spots that are intentionally more gold-producing, and others that are intentionally more food-producing. And some spots that just are not all that desirable all-around. Larger islands like Dwilight have more locations that can concentrate power. Askileon just so happens to be the most favorable for it, but it's not the only spot. Eidulb/Shrine/Gelene was pretty damn good, too.


Might be fun for Lurians, but for the rest...? Players seem to be getting tired of how pointless it all seems.
Then call off the war, and go do something else. No one is forcing you to attack Luria.

Quote
The whole continent is united against Luria Nova, and no progress can be made. How can you say politics are important if such a huge coalition is meaningless?
This is a bit disingenuous. Realms like Morek and Astrum can't really make meaningful contributions to the war effort, they're too far away. What you have is Luria Nova v. D'Hara/Fissoa. Swordfell isn't involved (from what I understand), and Barca is mostly pointless.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: vonGenf on November 25, 2014, 04:50:35 PM
Eno would have been able to secede and pose a threat to the rest of Riombara, at least, if it took Jidington, Eylmon, and Irombro along with it...

Jidington, Eylmon and Irombro would cause a huge threat to a Grehk-based realm, even without Eno.

Might be fun for Lurians, but for the rest...? Players seem to be getting tired of how pointless it all seems. The whole continent is united against Luria Nova, and no progress can be made. How can you say politics are important if such a huge coalition is meaningless?

Clusters of cities will never yield if you attack the entire cluster at once and give them reason to unite. That's what clusters are. It's like mountains: an element of geography. You'll never win if you keep fighting uphill. That's why politics are important.

And I don't mean that your politics are wrong! There can be loads of good reasons to assemble a coalition in the way you did it. Maybe if there wasn't such a cluster of cities in Lurian lands you could have never assembled it, and Barca would have tried to establish themselves somewhere else that did not suit you.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on November 25, 2014, 05:44:25 PM
People flock to opportunity, and flee disaster. Is Luria populous because it is fun, or fun because it is populous?

Enweil was populous and strong. When the invasions cut it apart, its playerbase melted away. I've seen it elsewhere. Players hate losing, they love easy victories. They tend to join realms that seem like they might win en bloc, and desert realms that aren't doing so even more rapidly.

When I ruled Enweil, we continued to grow, and I had great means to make changes on the continent. Later, when I ruled Fheuv'n, I was no less active. Indeed, I was much more active, had a lot more intiatives, assured a much greater distribution of power... And yet, Fheuv'n never grew. It shrank. Because all we had was a miserably city, and we kept getting pounded by rogues, again and again. We were too small to achieve anything, and players quickly lost interest.

I'm not saying that we should have few very scattered cities... In my mind, that's not structurally different than few very scattered city clusters. Pre-invasion BT had so many realms because these were surrounded by competing powers. When some clusters are overwhelmingly richer than the rest, it leaves much fewer opportunities.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 25, 2014, 07:03:09 PM
Like FEI. After Arcaea's victory, the island seems to be dying. Might as well say you won and wipe the island off.
FWIW - The federations are all dissolving, and Velax has unlocked diplomacy. I expect there will be something rolling out soon. No one wants to keep going in eternal peace. Maybe some people will take advantage of this to finish off some old grudges.   ;) ;D
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Bedwyr on November 25, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
FEI in general has a lot of cities. You're right about Coralynth. But the rest of the island has plenty of cities able to stand up to external enemies. Arcaea's cities did help. But they also had exceptionally good politics, a successful long-term plan, and more than a bit of opportunism.

As the original architect of Arcaea's plan (although I'm still astonished Velax managed to pull it off), I can say that the core cities of modern Arcaea were very much a major goal.  There was a lot of talk in the Shadow Council back in the day that if we could complete Festung Arcaea by holding the continuous line of fortifications from Lasop to Niel, we'd be pretty impregnable.  We were all delighted when it actually happened...Right up until the starvation kicked in.  I haven't ruled Arcaea in years, and I haven't been the Banker of it for longer still, but I still have the occasional nightmare about the food situation, and I always RP'd that Jenred had them pretty frequently.  I lost count of the number of times Topenah essentially starved to death while I played on the FEI, but it was at least six.  Jenred once calculated that more people had starved to death in Arcaea under his tenure that all the soldiers killed in all the wars on the Far East during his reign combined.

Having the secure food supplies from surrounding realms is absolutely critical for Arcaea.  I actually felt that Soliferum's old position was actually the best on the continent, and if Conan hadn't gotten impatient they would easily have steamrolled Arcaea back in the Sunset Crusade.

That said, I think there are plenty of other good superpower possibilities.  Coralynth is really the only exception, but their position is so good at holding off outside attackers that I'd say it more than compensates.  It took Arcaea calling in allies, and no less than four landed or Council-level spies/defectors/traitors within Arcachon, combined with an Arcachonian rebellion to allow Arcaea to win, and it was a tough fight even then.

I actually think FEI is one of the more balanced maps.  Dwilight and post-Invasion BT are definitely on the lower end to my mind.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: vonGenf on November 25, 2014, 10:15:10 PM
...Right up until the starvation kicked in.  I haven't ruled Arcaea in years, and I haven't been the Banker of it for longer still, but I still have the occasional nightmare about the food situation, and I always RP'd that Jenred had them pretty frequently.  I lost count of the number of times Topenah essentially starved to death while I played on the FEI, but it was at least six.  Jenred once calculated that more people had starved to death in Arcaea under his tenure that all the soldiers killed in all the wars on the Far East during his reign combined.

It got much easier after the latest rebalance. Arcaea is actually running a food surplus now.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 25, 2014, 10:23:35 PM
I actually think FEI is one of the more balanced maps.  Dwilight and post-Invasion BT are definitely on the lower end to my mind.

The thing is, Dwilight was so large in size and travel time (which is very important, as it determines how far you can travel from your realm without equipment damage becoming a huge factor) before the monster invasion that Luria being so much more powerful than all the other realms didn't matter, because no matter how powerful they were, they could really only influence D'Hara, Swordfell (someone tell me if that's the right name, been a while since I've been on Dwilight), Fissoa, maybe Corsanctum (when it existed) and maybe Morek. That left the entirety of the west and north completely outside of their influence.

However, that is no longer the case because the west is gone. All of it. Meaning now Luria is able to influence just about every realm on the continent. So you basically have an Arcaea scenario.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Indirik on November 25, 2014, 11:21:56 PM
... Luria being so much more powerful than all the other realms didn't matter, because no matter how powerful they were, they could really only influence D'Hara, Swordfell (someone tell me if that's the right name, been a while since I've been on Dwilight), Fissoa, maybe Corsanctum (when it existed) and maybe Morek. That left the entirety of the west and north completely outside of their influence.
That was really kid of the point of Dwilight being so big. The idea was to have a continent so big that you *couldn't* beat the crap out of anyone that annoyed you. If we had enough players to fill it, like at least 700 (but prefereably closer to 1,000), then you'd have a completely different situation. You wouldn't have the monster realms like Luria and Morek.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Zakilevo on November 25, 2014, 11:40:38 PM
FWIW - The federations are all dissolving, and Velax has unlocked diplomacy. I expect there will be something rolling out soon. No one wants to keep going in eternal peace. Maybe some people will take advantage of this to finish off some old grudges.   ;) ;D

Nice. Although I still think it might be better off to have at least one island where a victor is declared but it wouldn't hurt to have realms go at it each other 'again'.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Antonine on November 26, 2014, 01:39:52 AM
Looking at player densities where I play, East Continent is pretty good but that's about it. Beluaterra is pretty fun to be in right now but the south is completely unplayable - only the northern two thirds allow for a relatively balanced game and this has skewed player densities massively. Dwilight has poor player densities made worse by a disproportionate number residing in Luria Nova. The Far East is generally good apart from two pocket realms which have pretty much 1:1 noble to region ratios. I don't know about other continents.

But it does seem to me that the best ratio, game-play wise, is a ratio of 3 nobles to a region. However, there aren't any realms (other than one region realms) which have anywhere near that ratio.

Put bluntly, the player base is too low - closing a continent is one way forward but, then again, the geography of several of them channels them into fixed patterns, many of which aren't good for gameplay.

The geography of Atamara forces realms into essentially the same areas (apart from the realm names much of Atamara looks very similar to the way it did when I first started playing the game) but it's large enough to have balanced conflicts - the only problem it has is the players who've sewn it up under almost total Cagilan Empire hegemony.

Beluaterra has great geography north of, say, Fheuvenem but the south sucks for having sustainable conflict.

The Colonies are great in terms of geography but obviously have the one turn a day thing.

Dwilight sucks geographically - the player base is too low and a combination of travel times, history and geography have rendered the north pretty doomed to stagnation. The south is where it's at but the large gap between Fissoa and Giask-Shinnen basically distorts things and guarantees a regular powerhouse where Luria Nova currently is which will be mostly untouchable by its neighbours. Split up Palm Sea into some more regions, throw a city in the middle of it and maybe reduce the population of Askileon and Giask, however, and then we might be talking...

East Continent largely works but it will inevitably lead to north/south alliances and wars due to the terrain. On the other hand, the way it's divided up into regions works much better than the Far East where you have more than one chain of cities/strongholds adjacent to each other.

For the Far East see what I said about East Continent.

Now if it was me I'd say you could tweak the geography of southern Dwilight and sink the north of it, you could sink the south of Beluaterra, you could keep FEI, Colonies and EC the same and you could nuke Atamara (trolololol). That still wouldn't fix the player base issue though so the best would either be a big geological upheaval which forces continents together while sinking part of them or locking some continents and giving players a small window to evacuate to a neighbouring continent.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 26, 2014, 01:50:32 AM
Looking at player densities where I play, East Continent is pretty good but that's about it. Beluaterra is pretty fun to be in right now but the south is completely unplayable - only the northern two thirds allow for a relatively balanced game and this has skewed player densities massively. Dwilight has poor player densities made worse by a disproportionate number residing in Luria Nova. The Far East is generally good apart from two pocket realms which have pretty much 1:1 noble to region ratios. I don't know about other continents.

But it does seem to me that the best ratio, game-play wise, is a ratio of 3 nobles to a region. However, there aren't any realms (other than one region realms) which have anywhere near that ratio.

Funny you should mention that. The two realms closest to 3 nobles per region, Barca and Asylon, were both destroyed by the monsters. Kind of counter-intuitive if you think about it.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Bedwyr on November 26, 2014, 06:44:46 AM
It got much easier after the latest rebalance. Arcaea is actually running a food surplus now.

Really?  Without any food subsidies, Arcaea makes a yearly food surplus now?  Holy crap.  If that's the case under the current situation, then I take back what I said.  Without the strategic weakness of needing food imports to survive, that rather changes the overall scenario.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Glaumring the Fox on November 26, 2014, 06:56:02 AM
the monster invasion was the single biggest mistake in Dwilight history. BM history. Stop trying to kill this game off. So what if its not packed with players. The players that are here love the game and have played for close to 7 or 8 years or more day to day on laptops or cellphones in far flung places all over the earth. We check in to one of the deepest tactical strategy games out there and so what if its our secret. The people who care will stick around. BM is an awesome game and I wish Tom would realize what he has right here, BM is an awesome game.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Lorgan on November 26, 2014, 12:41:21 PM
<rant>
The argument of "this or that realm was better and therefore their continent should have survived" is stupid. It's exactly the same argument the conspiracy theorists in this thread use to point out why Luria's continent survived.

The argument that this was all a big mistake is also stupid. It's happened and seemed like the right thing to do at the time. I'm in Luria and was spared total annihilation or any irretrievable loss, so yes, that's easy for me to say but nevertheless things changed for me as well, so do the only thing you - we - can and move on.

Which brings me to moving on: continuing rant in newly created topic.
</rant>
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Renodin on November 26, 2014, 05:33:53 PM
Hey guys,

Specifically, I cannot help but feel that some comments here are added to, dramatized, over expressed or just skewed. I understand that to make a point its often good to emphasize but at times I read glaring misconceptions or portrays of the truth (as I also experience it).

Let's not assume that over expression is the reality when seeking stand points or solutions, that will drive us further from achieving anything.

My words apply to Dwilight and I don't claim sufficient knowledge about other continents.

I suppose some of the words are added at times to vent a bit and that's alright of course. Let's just stay real or as close to it as we can.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: GundamMerc on November 27, 2014, 02:19:35 AM
Hey guys,

Specifically, I cannot help but feel that some comments here are added to, dramatized, over expressed or just skewed. I understand that to make a point its often good to emphasize but at times I read glaring misconceptions or portrays of the truth (as I also experience it).

Let's not assume that over expression is the reality when seeking stand points or solutions, that will drive us further from achieving anything.

My words apply to Dwilight and I don't claim sufficient knowledge about other continents.

I suppose some of the words are added at times to vent a bit and that's alright of course. Let's just stay real or as close to it as we can.

I, at least, am not exaggerating. I am pointing at damning evidence that what happened was the wrong choice, and damning evidence from before the monster invasion was in full swing (and when there was still time to stop it) that we tried and tried to point out to the devs that what they were doing was a huge mistake. They didn't listen. The huge drop in player numbers on Dwilight falls squarely at their feet for failing to listen to the evidence given to them, and arbitrarily deciding the issue in a way that would affect the majority of players on the island negatively.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Antonine on November 27, 2014, 04:42:29 PM
Just for reference, I've tried to mash up a Battlemaster world map using the available maps on the wiki (most of the links are actually broken which makes things hard in terms of finding good images to use and this is my excuse for Dwilight in particular.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kfql275inpr7pej/BM%20world%20map.jpeg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kfql275inpr7pej/BM%20world%20map.jpeg?dl=0)

Of course the continents could be rotated slightly to make things look better perhaps but generally it seems to me as though it might be possible to do something like merge (via land bridges) or close some continents in a plausible manner.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Anaris on November 27, 2014, 07:06:11 PM
Please stop putting effort into anything related to merging all the continents. Unless the situation changes significantly, that is just not going to happen.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on October 19, 2016, 03:23:55 PM
I remember back in the days, stats were more or less regularly updated on the player base: how many active players, where, and what the density of various realms was. Are there any current numbers?
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: byrdcr9 on October 20, 2016, 07:59:03 PM
Create a character and see for yourself....  :-*
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Chenier on October 20, 2016, 08:53:05 PM
Even if I did, I don't think I'd have access to the whole stats. Plus, I'm not sure where the old ones are buried, whether in this thread or another.
Title: Re: Noble density per realm - Dwilight
Post by: Vita` on October 20, 2016, 09:22:18 PM
Generally, most islands and realms are more dense than they once were. There are still some low-density realm outliers.