BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Bael on May 21, 2011, 02:03:04 PM
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The tax code needs to be fixed a bit please. Even though I was imprisoned by (rogue), I still got taxed and lost gold. While somewhat comical in imagining the taxman coming along into the woods, asking the bandits if they can tax their prisoner, then heading on his way, it is a serious flaw that needs correction.
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conceptually it may seems strange, but then you also RECEIVE your tax gold while imprisoned as well. It would be rather drastic if nobles were not to receive their taxes while in prison, so from a mechanics point of view I think the current system works well.
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This is likely a case of realism being overruled by game mechanics.
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conceptually it may seems strange, but then you also RECEIVE your tax gold while imprisoned as well. It would be rather drastic if nobles were not to receive their taxes while in prison, so from a mechanics point of view I think the current system works well.
I would would support a change that would see them not receive their gold. If they want it, they can contact their lord to get it after they get out.
Or better yet: I presume that they get the taxes in bonds - this could easily be rp'ed as the bonds being pledged to them (even though they don't receive them immediately, although IG they would), and then they get them when in a city.
However, there is absolutely no way to explain taxing a noble in jail with an IG context. They would not even know how much gold he was carrying, for starters...
And yes, I have read the prior posts. And I do not doubt that the mechanics could be altered. Just as one cannot get messages, why not taxing?
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I would would support a change that would see them not receive their gold. If they want it, they can contact their lord to get it after they get out.
Or better yet: I presume that they get the taxes in bonds - this could easily be rp'ed as the bonds being pledged to them (even though they don't receive them immediately, although IG they would), and then they get them when in a city.
However, there is absolutely no way to explain taxing a noble in jail with an IG context. They would not even know how much gold he was carrying, for starters...
And yes, I have read the prior posts. And I do not doubt that the mechanics could be altered. Just as one cannot get messages, why not taxing?
Of course the mechanics could be altered, the real question is "Is is worth adding this extra realism at the cost of game balance". To me not really I see no gain for this other then it "making sense" in a real life situation. This game however doesn't aim for super realism, and if we go down the path of "but it makes no sense" can you imagine all the changes we would need to make?
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Or better yet: I presume that they get the taxes in bonds - this could easily be rp'ed as the bonds being pledged to them (even though they don't receive them immediately, although IG they would), and then they get them when in a city.
And at the same time as he picks up his bonds, he can drop off his tax payment, too. Along with 5 gold/day penalty for being late. And 25% compound interest on the whole lot, to boot.
There are indeed some things about this game that just don't make complete sense. The tax ninjas are one of those things. It's an abstraction that keeps things simple and easy, without any unneeded complexity.
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And yes, I have read the prior posts. And I do not doubt that the mechanics could be altered. Just as one cannot get messages, why not taxing?
Actually the mechanics for taxation is quite complex (separate from prison), and would require quite a bit of work to redo in the fashion you described, not to mention a reasonable place for the actual tax gold to go instead of to the one in prison.
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The only thing I'd support is property and wealth tax being deducted from income, and not your purse, with all negative income that would have been given in gold (due to being in the duchy) be given in bonds instead.
But even then...
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Huh? Can you clarify? You are suggesting that property/wealth taxes be taken from income in a general sense?
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He is proposing an income tax, rather than a property tax.
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Um... okay... something that new should probably not be in a thread that says fix.
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The only thing I'd support is property and wealth tax being deducted from income, and not your purse, with all negative income that would have been given in gold (due to being in the duchy) be given in bonds instead.
But even then...
Um... okay... something that new should probably not be in a thread that says fix.
Sorry, Foundation, I was saying that Chénier was advocating an income tax. Bael's original post was about tax ninjas in prison.
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He is proposing an income tax, rather than a property tax.
That's not what I read. What I understand is exemplified in the following example (and Chénier, please correct me if I am wrong).
Suppose you have 500 gold and 500 bonds. Further suppose that at tax day, you should:
-Receive 50 pieces of gold of income
-Pay 100 gold and 100 bonds of taxes.
then what should happen is:
-Your bond total is reduced by 100 due to bond taxes
-Your gold income is entirely taken away by taxes, so you receive no income.
-The extra 50 gold you owe, however, cannot be taken by the bureaucrats without actually raiding your pocket. Instead, they instruct the bank to write off your bond for the remaining value.
At the end, you are left with 500 gold and 350 bond, instead of 450 gold and 400 bond as in the current system.
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And this would lead to people cashing out all their bonds for gold on tax day, so they would never have to pay the taxes.
No.
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Note that in this scenario, you end up with zero income. You are still taxed on your gold, and you are still taxed the full amount.
However, it becomes actually possible to escape the taxman by fleeing halfway across the continent and never spending any of your money.
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And this would lead to people cashing out all their bonds for gold on tax day, so they would never have to pay the taxes.
No.
And this is different from how people usually play how? The only bonds I ever have are the ones from taxes while on campaign. Also, if someone hoards golds instead of bonds, they get taxed for gold. If this change were implemented, while you may be able to hoard gold for all eternity if you were to get outside the reach of the taxman for gold (which, from what I have seen, has only been suggested for prison), you could only receive bonds as you would more than likely be outside your duchy and thus receiving bonds anyways. Which would be taxed.
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And this is different from how people usually play how? The only bonds I ever have are the ones from taxes while on campaign. Also, if someone hoards golds instead of bonds, they get taxed for gold. If this change were implemented, while you may be able to hoard gold for all eternity if you were to get outside the reach of the taxman for gold (which, from what I have seen, has only been suggested for prison), you could only receive bonds as you would more than likely be outside your duchy and thus receiving bonds anyways. Which would be taxed.
I'm not sure what you're saying happens here. Right now, bonds and gold both get taxed equally. If you have 200 gold, and the tax rate is 20% over 100, you'll get taxed 20 gold. If you have 200 bonds, with the same tax rate, you'll get taxed 20 bonds.
As things stand, if you have over 200 gold + bonds under that tax rate, you will get taxed something. You can't just choose to pay no taxes this week by dumping it all into gold.
Under your proposal, anyone who doesn't feel like paying taxes will be able to dump all their money into gold just before tax day and pay no taxes that week.
So, again: no.
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I wasn't making a proposal, I was writing an example based on the example given by vonGenf. "This change" does not refer to my post, so please don't take it as such.
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Under your proposal, anyone who doesn't feel like paying taxes will be able to dump all their money into gold just before tax day and pay no taxes that week.
No, and I truly don't understand how you could read that from my example. Could you explain it to me please?
If you're worried about people going into negative bond numbers, there should be a steep honour drop accompanying that.
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No, and I truly don't understand how you could read that from my example. Could you explain it to me please?
If you're worried about people going into negative bond numbers, there should be a steep honour drop accompanying that.
If they have no bonds, what are they going to pay?
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No, and I truly don't understand how you could read that from my example. Could you explain it to me please?
If you're worried about people going into negative bond numbers, there should be a steep honour drop accompanying that.
So we would have to start worrying about managing the amount of bonds we hold at all times to ensure we can cover any taxation requirement? Sounds like just one more pointless thing to worry about for casual players.
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Well if it's avoiding the realm's taxes you're wondering about, I think taxes are set to greater than, not greater than or equal to, and it counts the separate values of gold and bonds, and taxes one of them that overflows, rather than the total. I could be wrong on this though.
What does this mean? Let's say your realm has a 25% tax on anything over 100 gold. Theoretically that would mean you would have at most either 100 gold or 100 bonds. I think, but I've never actually made my own attempt, just looked at the Information\Check Taxes screen, that if you have 200 gold and split it 100 gold and 100 bonds, you don't get taxed.
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If they have no bonds, what are they going to pay?
Then they get zero income. And negative bonds. And probably an honour loss.
Seriously, the only scenario where this is possible is one where your total taxes exceed your income. How often does that happen? And if you managed to amass such a sum, shouldn't it be possible to actually put it away for a while?
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Then they get zero income. And negative bonds. And probably an honour loss.
Seriously, the only scenario where this is possible is one where your total taxes exceed your income. How often does that happen? And if you managed to amass such a sum, shouldn't it be possible to actually put it away for a while?
Negative bonds aren't desirable to implement. How does it make sense for you to carry loads of gold, and a tax collector comes and says "well, okay, I see you have gold, but I don't like that, I like paper instead"?
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Negative bonds aren't desirable to implement. How does it make sense for you to carry loads of gold, and a tax collector comes and says "well, okay, I see you have gold, but I don't like that, I like paper instead"?
Please read the beginning of the thread.
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Please read the beginning of the thread.
I have been following this entire thread. Yes, it does not make sense for tax collectors to come into prison. I'm simply pointing out that neither does the proposal make sense.
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Oh, I once hit negative gold. It had to do with something weird with the prison teleportation and one of the infiltrating options not checking for gold. It was weird, and I have no idea what would have happened there.
Anyway, I think what people don't like is how their gold gets eaten into while they're on the field. Meh, go to another realm or figure out how to balance the income.
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Meh, go to another realm or figure out how to balance the income.
It's hard to do this realistically.
For example, considering the time it takes to move from one realm to another, you cannot "flee the tax collector", unless you pledge allegiance to the realm next door.
I would imagine Liberian tax collectors have a hard time to reach Ruins of Walfurgisnacht, but apparently they do so easily.
It would be nice if there some way to hide from the tax collectors. It doesn't have to be easy.
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- Guilds
- Secret Societies
- Religions
- Trade
- Family Gold
- Investments
- Balancing gold/bonds carried
I'm sure I have missed (or deliberately excluded? :P ) some options.
And if you think that these options only enable the rich and powerful to evade taxes, you're correct. Just like in the Real World, the rich and powerful make the laws, and these laws naturally favor themselves. Besides, if it was easy to evade taxes, and everyone could do it, then no one would pay taxes, making them useless.
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Oh, it's very easy to evade taxes when you are sitting in your capital and working with official institutions.
Strangely, however, when you are in the wilderness on the other side of the world, then it becomes extremely difficult. Taxes collectors are so busy travelling there to get your gold, that must be why they miss all the tax evaders in the capital. :P