BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Vaylon Kenadell on June 01, 2011, 11:14:23 PM
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I searched the forums and saw that no one else had brought this up before, so I would like to propose the following:
If a region's economy includes fishing, part of the region's ability to produce food should not be affected by season. Instead, the region should be able to constantly produce food by fishing. (Obviously, if the region also relies on farming, overall food production will still be vulnerable to season.) To balance this, fishing will also not get a season bonus -- and the region's ability to produce food will, of course, still be affected by other factors like population, production level, and looting.
This change will make coastal areas somewhat more desirable due to the ability to produce a steady supply of food in scarce times; however, I believe the change would not be overpowered because fishing would get no seasonal bonuses and therefore produce no more food in the course of the year than farming would, on average.
Disclosure: I am a lord in a region that includes fishing as part of its economy.
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I would be curious to know if considerations like this might go into the New Economy system we have heard so much about? Judging by the experimental messages, food production will be part of it, so...
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Well, there actually are seasonal variations among certain species of fish...Just saying, you know.
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I searched the forums and saw that no one else had brought this up before, so I would like to propose the following:
If a region's economy includes fishing, part of the region's ability to produce food should not be affected by season. Instead, the region should be able to constantly produce food by fishing. (Obviously, if the region also relies on farming, overall food production will still be vulnerable to season.) To balance this, fishing will also not get a season bonus -- and the region's ability to produce food will, of course, still be affected by other factors like population, production level, and looting.
This change will make coastal areas somewhat more desirable due to the ability to produce a steady supply of food in scarce times; however, I believe the change would not be overpowered because fishing would get no seasonal bonuses and therefore produce no more food in the course of the year than farming would, on average.
Disclosure: I am a lord in a region that includes fishing as part of its economy.
As far as I know, that fishing part of your economy does absolutely nothing right now. It was an early stage of the new economy system which has yet to be rolled out. It is a very good idea for when the system is completely implemented though.
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It is an interesting idea, and one I would probably support. Different food production vectors having different seasonal bonuses and penalties.
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Well, there actually are seasonal variations among certain species of fish...Just saying, you know.
Yes, but these migrations often do not coincide with the crop harvest season. Cod, for example, migrates in the winter, and medieval Europe traded heavily in dried and salted cod (as well as other stockfish), as it lasts for several years without refrigeration. Overall, I think food production from the sea would be constant over the seasons, as "fishing" represents a variety of seafood collection (including perhaps whaling, I imagine, and I can't even begin to tell you how lucrative and useful that is), rather than a particular species of fish.
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It is an interesting idea, and one I would probably support. Different food production vectors having different seasonal bonuses and penalties.
What other food productions are currently being worked on? Farming and fishing I know of, and I believe hunting is one if I remember correctly. Are there others?
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What other food productions are currently being worked on? Farming and fishing I know of, and I believe hunting is one if I remember correctly. Are there others?
Foraging, perhaps?
I'd also support this idea. How would fishing be affect by investing in a region? With crops, you can just buy more seed and plant it. But with fishing, it's difficult to say "we'll just catch more fish".
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Foraging, perhaps?
I'd also support this idea. How would fishing be affect by investing in a region? With crops, you can just buy more seed and plant it. But with fishing, it's difficult to say "we'll just catch more fish".
"We'll buy more fishing boats."
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"We use the investments to start up fish farms."
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Since investment only brings food production up to the region max anyway, it would probably just represent replacing the loses and damage to a fishing fleet.
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So all this is about the Nebulous new economy, right?
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So all this is about the Nebulous new economy, right?
Yes, this is a suggestion for a feature that hasn't been implemented yet.
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strangely, i thought hunting and fishing preceded "new economy" or dwilight (the seasonal stuff) by years.
back when in atamara, the food production bit mentions the % of the food from fishing/hunting/crops. i guess more like flavour than actually doing anything.
for that matter.. what about weather? drought shouldn't affect fish.
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Yes, but these migrations often do not coincide with the crop harvest season. Cod, for example, migrates in the winter, and medieval Europe traded heavily in dried and salted cod (as well as other stockfish), as it lasts for several years without refrigeration. Overall, I think food production from the sea would be constant over the seasons, as "fishing" represents a variety of seafood collection (including perhaps whaling, I imagine, and I can't even begin to tell you how lucrative and useful that is), rather than a particular species of fish.
"Europe", as a whole, probably has a large enough variety of fish to fish all year long, but any particular region won't. The seasons will not be the same, but there are definitely seasons to fishing.
Whales are migratory too, so there is a whaling season.
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There's always overfishing to think about too :)
Although you could always rationalize that medieval technology and population levels aren't high enough to overfish the available stocks.
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"Europe", as a whole, probably has a large enough variety of fish to fish all year long, but any particular region won't. The seasons will not be the same, but there are definitely seasons to fishing.
Whales are migratory too, so there is a whaling season.
I think any region with fishing listed as part of its economy has, by definition, enough fish present throughout the year to justify its impact on the region's economy. In many places of the world (and some in Europe), fish were a staple food consumed year-round. I wouldn't mind giving fishing on and off seasons (200% in one season, 25% in another, etc.), but balance-wise I think this particular feature would work better if fishing stayed at a constant 100% throughout the year. Let me explain:
| Spring | Summer | Autumn | Winter |
| Farming | 75 | 100 | 200 | 25 |
| Fishing | 100 | 100 | 100 | 100 |
This table shows that, with each harvest in a particular season, all other things being the same, 50% of food production will come from fishing over the length of a year if the region has both farming and fishing. Lords of these regions will have to stockpile food in warehouses throughout the year, not just in particular seasons, making them vulnerable to looting year-round -- although they will also be able to recover faster than regions that depend on farming. While it's true that regions with fishing might be able to support inland populations during a time of famine, it will take careful planning and a cooperative lord; uncooperative ones might use it to their advantage.
How would you like to set the seasons for fishing? Remember, too, that these settings will be used in every region that has fishing, regardless of their climate or geography.
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Don't forget, some regions also have hunting, and that might also require separate rates to account for seasonal migrations and hibernations.
But for balance, we should also vary rates, or at least the base harvest amount, to account for regions that either have only farming/fishing/hunting as a food source, and those that have some combination of the aforementioned. This means that, while it is obvious that a region with a combination of those three should have the advantage in food stability, it should, as compensation, have a lower maximum. That means farming only regions should have the highest maximum food production, with also the highest seasonal variation. Fishing would come in second, but still significantly lower than the farming maximum. I would say that the fishing maximum, which would be as well the minimum since we want this to be stable, would be around the same as farming's summer harvest numbers. Hunting would have the lowest maximum, comparable to about farming's spring numbers. It would have lower variations in all seasons but winter though, when it would drop significantly, like for farming.
In this way, a farming only region is still desirable as it can provide potentially the best harvest for those with good timing and like some risk. Combination regions can be as desirable for stability without making exclusive regions inferior. And in this way fishing and hunting exclusive regions have their own unique flavors as well, though hunting sounds like it will be pretty inferior on its own. It makes sense though, if you think about hunting-exclusive places though.
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Don't forget, some regions also have hunting, and that might also require separate rates to account for seasonal migrations and hibernations.
But for balance, we should also vary rates, or at least the base harvest amount, to account for regions that either have only farming/fishing/hunting as a food source, and those that have some combination of the aforementioned. This means that, while it is obvious that a region with a combination of those three should have the advantage in food stability, it should, as compensation, have a lower maximum. That means farming only regions should have the highest maximum food production, with also the highest seasonal variation. Fishing would come in second, but still significantly lower than the farming maximum. I would say that the fishing maximum, which would be as well the minimum since we want this to be stable, would be around the same as farming's summer harvest numbers. Hunting would have the lowest maximum, comparable to about farming's spring numbers. It would have lower variations in all seasons but winter though, when it would drop significantly, like for farming.
In this way, a farming only region is still desirable as it can provide potentially the best harvest for those with good timing and like some risk. Combination regions can be as desirable for stability without making exclusive regions inferior. And in this way fishing and hunting exclusive regions have their own unique flavors as well, though hunting sounds like it will be pretty inferior on its own. It makes sense though, if you think about hunting-exclusive places though.
Sounds like more trouble to code than it is worth...
I wouldn't say no to the food system being more complex, though, if the devs will it. Bushels of generic "food" only leave so much room for an interesting trading game.
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No matter how (and if) the food system is revamped to cover how much food is produced based on the source, there have never been any discussions regarding separating the end product into different types of food. So you won't be able to trade 100 bushels of grain and 300 pounds of fish. You will still just have "400 bushels of food".
However, additional trade goods are on the radar, including wood, stone, metal, and manufactured goods.
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No matter how (and if) the food system is revamped to cover how much food is produced based on the source, there have never been any discussions regarding separating the end product into different types of food. So you won't be able to trade 100 bushels of grain and 300 pounds of fish. You will still just have "400 bushels of food".
However, additional trade goods are on the radar, including wood, stone, metal, and manufactured goods.
I sure hope cities will produce a lot of manufactured good, D'Hara already pays a heapload to import food, I don't even want to begin to think about adding wood, stone, and metal to that...
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I wonder who suggested different types of food. I certainly didn't.
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I wonder who suggested different types of food.
Could that be because you really don't pay attention to other people's posts? Or have you put Chénier on ignore?
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Food with food sauce 8)
The new tradeables sound very interesting, I just hope it won't require as much micromanagement as food. For instance you should be able to direct all the resources your region produces straight to a city to refine them, instead of creating shipments every week or so.
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Could that be because you really don't pay attention to other people's posts? Or have you put Chénier on ignore?
After what he said about me in those religion and BT invasion threads? Also...it's kind of hard to see what he posted when initially his post included his comment in the same blue box of quote as mine.
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If you're going to ignore posts in the thread, you could at least refrain from making snarky comments in that thread.
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Food with food sauce 8)
That's better than a whip wine roast, made of masterfully minced whip wine, exceptionally minced whip wine, exceptionally minced whip wine, and masterfully minced whip wine...
</ObDF> (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,115.0.html)
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If you're going to ignore posts in the thread, you could at least refrain from making snarky comments in that thread.
Actually, when I checked this morning on my iPod, Chenier's post really was included under the quote box and I didn't notice that he actually posted until you said so.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:15:42 by Chénier »
I'm assuming that was him noticing too.