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BattleMaster => Locals => Far East Island => Topic started by: Indirik on January 07, 2015, 03:30:20 AM
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It was fun, even if we lost.
We had waaaay too much ranged SF, and not enough infantry. But wow, does it do some damage! Lots of wounds all around. Close finish.
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So glad to finally see some action. Hoping to see you all again soon. :)
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Kind of sad that the first war is against poor OW though. That realm can never seem to catch a break.
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They don't deserve one! I've been trying to wipe them off the island for ... four years now? Ugh!
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Speaking as a former long serving Prime Minister of OW, they deserve to die. The game will be a better place without it in existence.
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I don't care whether OW deserves to live or not. After what Coralynth pulled, they don't.
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I don't care whether OW deserves to live or not. After what Coralynth pulled, they don't.
Indeed, that is very much my feeling.
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I don't care whether OW deserves to live or not. After what Coralynth pulled, they don't.
Did they pull yer leg?
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Did they pull yer leg?
Let me put it this way:
To seek to gain the upper hand by surprise when starting a war against a foe fully able to defend itself against you is sound strategy. To do so against a realm already beset by a foe significantly larger than itself, one whose strength you outmatch on your own by a fair amount, stains your reputation to no good purpose.
But to advance upon such a realm, be challenged by its ruler, and respond with a ridiculously transparent fabrication, then go through with the attack? Why would you ever do such a thing? What can you gain by it but the contempt and distrust of your peers?
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Because honor is nice, but winning is much nicer.
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Because honor is nice, but winning is much nicer.
Now, see, that would make sense if the situation were the one I described in the first sentence of that.
This is more like walking nonchalantly past the 5-year-old, then slipping your foot back, tripping him, punching him in the gut, grabbing his candy bar, and running away.
If you had just run up to him, grabbed the candy bar, and run on, you would have achieved the same effect, and not look like such an unmitigated !@#$%^&.
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Well, if you're gonna take candy from a toddler, you're already an !@#$%^&, so you might as well go all the way :P
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Because honor is nice, but winning is much nicer.
Being truly honourable is a great thing. Convincing everyone you are honourable while not being is great. All other situations are a hollow victory when the gods weight your achievements.
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I wonder how many people ic know what you're talking about. My character is wounded, and wouldn't care anyway. Getting rid of ow is with any price. But still, i wonder who knows.
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I wonder how many people ic know what you're talking about. My character is wounded, and wouldn't care anyway. Getting rid of ow is with any price. But still, i wonder who knows.
Well, I can't imagine that anyone in Coralynth doesn't know at least that they attacked OW with a last-second war declaration.
On the other hand, I'd be quite surprised if Queen Eva passed on the fact that OW saw them coming, called them out on it, and then she said, basically, "We are not currently, at this second, stabbing swords in your faces. I don't know what you're talking about!" And two days later declared war.
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I wonder how many people ic know what you're talking about. My character is wounded, and wouldn't care anyway. Getting rid of ow is with any price. But still, i wonder who knows.
All of Zonasa knows.
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Well, I can't imagine that anyone in Coralynth doesn't know at least that they attacked OW with a last-second war declaration.
On the other hand, I'd be quite surprised if Queen Eva passed on the fact that OW saw them coming, called them out on it, and then she said, basically, "We are not currently, at this second, stabbing swords in your faces. I don't know what you're talking about!" And two days later declared war.
Honestly, that's part of why I left, and criticized the queen for.
After gang-banging that tiny one-city realm, the prospect of war seemed bleak. After some pressures for the Queen to man up and get something started, I was told to be patient, that we were making deals with other realms and would get a war "soon". It was always pretty obvious that OW would be the target, for some reason people don't seem to like them much. Looking at the stats, though, we were already a stronger realm, so I criticized them for not wanting an actual war, but just another swift and unfun gangbang. Then I left. Guess they went ahead with their plan. I really have no regrets of leaving Coralynth.
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Well, I can't imagine that anyone in Coralynth doesn't know at least that they attacked OW with a last-second war declaration.
I finally just flat out asked them "Are you gonnna declare war yet?"
On the other hand, I'd be quite surprised if Queen Eva passed on the fact that OW saw them coming, called them out on it, and then she said, basically, "We are not currently, at this second, stabbing swords in your faces. I don't know what you're talking about!" And two days later declared war.
Well, that is kind of a cheap shot. It's not like anyone didn't know what was coming anyway. I guess it would never have occurred to me that Coralynth would try to hide it. If it hadn't been for Velax's last-second announcement that we should all go to neutral before anyone started fighting a war, we would have done this two months ago. In fact, we had just decided to stop waiting for Velax to unlock diplomacy, and just invade anyway, when he made his announcement.
Oh well. We shall see what happens about any of this *after* OW dies.
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Is this really any worse than the many infamous occasions in the game when an army has ended up "holidaying" or "sightseeing" in another realm's region and then suddenly attacked?
Yeah, it's dishonourable - but it's not like anyone here put any effort into the Order of the Hawk when that was set up to try to make war on the continent honourable so it's hardly like Coralynth deserves to die for this. Get their asses whupped by OW, maybe. But with only 8 nobles I wouldn't be surprised if that happened anyway.
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Is this really any worse than the many infamous occasions in the game when an army has ended up "holidaying" or "sightseeing" in another realm's region and then suddenly attacked?
Yeah, it's dishonourable - but it's not like anyone here put any effort into the Order of the Hawk when that was set up to try to make war on the continent honourable so it's hardly like Coralynth deserves to die for this. Get their asses whupped by OW, maybe. But with only 8 nobles I wouldn't be surprised if that happened anyway.
Is anyone arguing that it isn't? Realms that act dishonourably deserve consequences. And yes, I put in CONSIDERABLE effort with Bedwyr to try and get the Order of the Hawks some real teeth to enforce its ideals.
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Yeah, it's dishonourable - but it's not like anyone here put any effort into the Order of the Hawk when that was set up to try to make war on the continent honourable so it's hardly like Coralynth deserves to die for this. Get their asses whupped by OW, maybe. But with only 8 nobles I wouldn't be surprised if that happened anyway.
I wasn't here when any of that was going on. And if I had been, I wouldn't have been in a position to do much.
If Baranion had had the opportunity, he would have been thrilled to be able to help enforce something like the Order of the Hawk's codes.
...Oh, and he's not going to sit back and let Sartanism take over the world, either, so you'd better watch out ;D
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So, PoZ wants someone to fight, and they're afraid of Cathay. They need a safe war that can't hurt them. So they latch on to Daddy Arcaea and go roflstomp Sorraine and Coralynth. I haven't seen any of the messages ig about this yet, so i really don't have a good feel for it. But even if what happened is what was described, destroying Coralynth over it is a huge overreaction.
More seriously, this is the biggest danger that fei could face in the imperial era: Pax Arcaea. They are to big for anyone to fight. So even more so that AT, there's an elephant in the room, and whatever they say goes. As if fei wasnt already at the top of the Most Boring Island list, this will kill it. "Let's go bash the only people on the island that are willing to do something other than play region maintenance."
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So, PoZ wants someone to fight, and they're afraid of Cathay. They need a safe war that can't hurt them. So they latch on to Daddy Arcaea and go roflstomp Sorraine and Coralynth.
Yeeeaaaah....there isn't a single part of that that's accurate.
I haven't seen any of the messages ig about this yet, so i really don't have a good feel for it. But even if what happened is what was described, destroying Coralynth over it is a huge overreaction.
More seriously, this is the biggest danger that fei could face in the imperial era: Pax Arcaea. They are to big for anyone to fight. So even more so that AT, there's an elephant in the room, and whatever they say goes. As if fei wasnt already at the top of the Most Boring Island list, this will kill it. "Let's go bash the only people on the island that are willing to do something other than play region maintenance."
I've got some ideas about what can be done about big bad Arcaea. They're just not ready to drop yet.
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I have to say that I'm quite pleased that my little nudge in the direction of religious conflict has worked so brilliantly. A little preaching in Ohnar West here, a doomed referendum on adopting a state religion there and suddenly we the first war on FEI since the Empire and Arcaea starting to tear itself apart over religion.
If anyone wanted a prediction I'd say that either Arcaea joins the war and ends up tearing itself apart or it stays out and faces a challenge for the Imperial Crown once the victory of the current war consolidates itself. Personally I think the latter would be better for the game but either works for me - after all, Arcaea's religious politics would make it very, very easy to split in two.
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So, PoZ wants someone to fight, and they're afraid of Cathay. They need a safe war that can't hurt them. So they latch on to Daddy Arcaea and go roflstomp Sorraine and Coralynth. I haven't seen any of the messages ig about this yet, so i really don't have a good feel for it. But even if what happened is what was described, destroying Coralynth over it is a huge overreaction.
More seriously, this is the biggest danger that fei could face in the imperial era: Pax Arcaea. They are to big for anyone to fight. So even more so that AT, there's an elephant in the room, and whatever they say goes. As if fei wasnt already at the top of the Most Boring Island list, this will kill it. "Let's go bash the only people on the island that are willing to do something other than play region maintenance."
Actually no. PoZ is not really in a state to fight anyone, however the discussion to help OW began in earnest before we knew anything of the position of the other realms. PoZ actually needs its own peace since most the regions we have are underpopulated and have next to no infrastructure.
If Arcaea or others were to step in to the conflict, I would expect that PoZ would be looking at their own position. So far as I know, currently we are the only realm that has committed to doing anything at all.
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It's an interesting situation. Switching up the traditional alliances might just be enough to poke me into getting back into BM.
More seriously, this is the biggest danger that fei could face in the imperial era: Pax Arcaea. They are to big for anyone to fight. So even more so that AT, there's an elephant in the room, and whatever they say goes. As if fei wasnt already at the top of the Most Boring Island list, this will kill it. "Let's go bash the only people on the island that are willing to do something other than play region maintenance."
I disgaree. Arcaea has been too big for any other single realm to fight for a while now - for at least for the past five years or so. But has that made the island boring? Was the massive, continent-wide war we just had boring?
The shrinking of the island has made it more difficult to have a private war without involving everyone else, true. The type of smaller wars Kindara had against old Cathay, C'thonia and NeoSartania would be more difficult have in the current environment. But I don't think this translates into "nothing interesting can ever happen, ever".
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It's an interesting situation. Switching up the traditional alliances might just be enough to poke me into getting back into BM.
I disgaree. Arcaea has been too big for any other single realm to fight for a while now - for at least for the past five years or so. But has that made the island boring? Was the massive, continent-wide war we just had boring?
The shrinking of the island has made it more difficult to have a private war without involving everyone else, true. The type of smaller wars Kindara had against old Cathay, C'thonia and NeoSartania would be more difficult have in the current environment. But I don't think this translates into "nothing interesting can ever happen, ever".
I thought it was boring, but maybe I just joined too late.
What I'd fear is that it got gang-bangs into peoples' heads. Coralynth seemed unable to even consider the concept of a 1v1 war, even against a weaker enemy the leaders wanted to bring in others. "Let's gang up on our enemies!" seems their default reflex.
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Baranion dislikes the idea of needing someone's help in a war. If he had his way, he'd pick a nice clean fight against a realm of similar power.
Unfortunately, there isn't one near him just at the moment. With time, though, Zonasa's regions will recover, and I daresay we could at least face Cathay toe to toe with the outcome being a tossup.
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I disgaree. Arcaea has been too big for any other single realm to fight for a while now - for at least for the past five years or so.
That's debatable. But even if we accept it as true, there were coalitions of realms that could stand against Arcaea. Cathay and Kindara together did one hell of a job. If it hadn't been for the glacier, the island would look a hell of a lot different than it does now. It's more than likely that without the glacier, Imperial domination would never have happened.
But has that made the island boring?
Large portions of it, yes. Look at Ohnar West and their 5 nobles for 7 regions. (They picked up a couple after Kindara dissolved.) Look at Coralynth and their... what... 8 nobles for 10 regions? These are realms that have been strangled by a single year of strict imperial control. Ghost towns.
But now things are unlocked, and supposedly wars are allowed. Maybe things can finally start taking a turn for the better. But as soon as we try and resume a war that was forestalled by strict imperially-decreed diplomacy, we hear rumours that Arcaea is planning to step in and stop it. And if that happens, then I have to wonder what's the point of being on the FEI at all?
Now, maybe that won't happen. Maybe Arcaea will let Sorraine wage war on Ohnar West, and they're really just pissed at Coralynth. (And now that I've finally seen some of the messages IG, I can see where Arcaea might be a bit pissed at them.) If that's the case, then we will have to see how Arcaea handles it. (And no, I don't have any ideas there.)
Was the massive, continent-wide war we just had boring?
To be brutally honest, yes. At least the past year, if not more, was excruciatingly boring. All we've been doing for quite a while is going through the motions. We marched where the Emperor told us to march, when he told us to march there. We attacked when we told to attack, and went home for refit when we were told to refit. I finally got into what I *thought* was the top of the command structure where I *thought* decisions were being made, and got a big surprise. Oh look, all the orders and strategies are dictated by the emperor himself, with no discussion or consultation with his allies. All of Arcaea's allies were being handed explicit orders with no opportunity to contribute to the war effort.
As the general of Arcaea's largest and strongest allied realm, I was relegated to the task of shuffling messages back and forth between the Emperor (who whenever possible simply issued orders to everyone in the region anyway) and the marshal of my army. My messages to Arcaea's general were *never* answered. (In fact, I don't think I *ever* saw a message from whoever was keeping that chair warm.) All contact with Arcaea was through the Emperor, personally.
So, yeah. It was mostly boring. I understand that you may not have felt that way. But for Sorraine, and Coralynth, and Ohnar West ... why do you think two of those three realms have practically collapsed from lack of nobles, and the third is on its way there?
I don't know where the island is going from here. Today, it doesn't look good. But the real test is how things develop over the next week or two.
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To be brutally honest, yes. At least the past year, if not more, was excruciatingly boring. All we've been doing for quite a while is going through the motions. We marched where the Emperor told us to march, when he told us to march there. We attacked when we told to attack, and went home for refit when we were told to refit. I finally got into what I *thought* was the top of the command structure where I *thought* decisions were being made, and got a big surprise. Oh look, all the orders and strategies are dictated by the emperor himself, with no discussion or consultation with his allies. All of Arcaea's allies were being handed explicit orders with no opportunity to contribute to the war effort.
Did you try to contribute to the war effort? Did you put forth your own ideas about what you thought should be done? Not once, ever, has Velax dictated that everyone will do exactly as he says and will brook no opposition. Yeah, by the time you became General only a crippled Cathay was left and there wasn't much left to do, but for most of the war before that there was plenty of chance for input. Discussions and debates were had. Strategies were changed based on input from the rulers and generals - just ask Baranion. He and Velax had more than one disagreement about the way to proceed, and at least once Baranion's way won out.
If you thought your only option was to do as you were told and never made the effort to do anything different, then that's on you. I can't force people to put forward their opinions; all I can do is give people the opportunity to.
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Did you try to contribute to the war effort? Did you put forth your own ideas about what you thought should be done?
Yes, actually, I did. And my letters to your general went unanswered. When I finally got to the forum where I assumed discussions were taking place, there was only silence. So, no discussion, unanswered letters, and lots of orders. Was it that way the whole war? I don't know. I can only say what I experienced. But that the impression I got was that's pretty much how it went the whole time. But I could be wrong.
Not once, ever, has Velax dictated that everyone will do exactly as he says and will brook no opposition
I never said he did. Yet that's the impression that was given.
If you thought your only option was to do as you were told and never made the effort to do anything different, then that's on you. I can't force people to put forward their opinions; all I can do is give people the opportunity to.
See above.
That's all water under the bridge now, though. It's what happens from here on out that counts.
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I have been following the forum on and off since I got back to bm but this forum thread has spurred me to join the forums here. In truth it's rather annoyed me.
While I can't speak for my predecessor I have been sitting in the generals seat in Arcaea for the past 8 months. During that time Coralynth has made 0 attempts to contact me. The only messages I have not answered are more recent ones which a) were questions directed at the council as a whole that I could not answer as an individual and b) it was over the Christmas/new year period so everyone is super inactive.
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General's channels are traditionally pretty quiet. Most generals prefer to fight than talk. But even besides that, why would they contact you? You guys haven't been fighting anything, as far as i know. I did talk to their general quite a bit in the past month or two. But then about a week ago he suddenly quit.
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Ah my mistake, your character is from Sorraine.... Still the same principle applies, I haven't been in contacted by Sorraines General either. Unless I have horribly misunderstood I thought you had claimed to of been trying to get into contact with Arcaeas General and had received no response.
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I have not tried recently. I haven't needed to do so. This was back during the end stages of the war. I don't remember who the general was at the time.
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It was the same person as now.
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Well hey, there you go.
Why didn't you answer my letters? >:(
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I can't respond to letters that I have not seen.
While it's not impossible that I could of missed your letters I'm usually pretty thorough when checking my mail box.... What with all the political shenanigans that go on in Arcaea. I swear I spend more time putting out fires then actually being a general :p
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Well it was several months ago. And if you missed them back then, it's not like you would remember them now. Anyway, there's a new war going on now. Fun for all!
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Had Coralynth and Sorraine declared war on Ohnar West and then marched, I don't think Arcaea would be mobilizing right now. Moving under a banner of peace and then declaring war is the kind of despicable act that motivates all kinds of people to put aside other objections to fighting.
Regarding the Order of the Hawk, by the way, Jenred absolutely made sure the provisions had teeth. I can recall two nobles fined, and one banished from Arcaea itself, and recall similar incidents with various Arcaean allies where Jenred made it clear there would be consequences to the violators or he would switch Arcaea's side in the war. During the Aenilian war we conducted a field execution of one of the Duke's units after the player misclicked and used one of the forbidden looting options. To be clear, this was a Duke, with over a hundred men, during an active war, while we were sitting in Larmebsi conducting a takeover, who had to disband his troop and RP an execution of them for violating his orders.
There were at least two occasions where Jenred arranged food "sales" for one gold per hundred bushels as recompense for unauthorized looting.
And I can't tell you how many times Jenred and Velax got into arguments about some of the restrictions that Jenred ended up settling by royal fiat over the protestations of his General and most of his Marshals.
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The Order of the Hawk absolutely had teeth - but only when Jenred was around. He was its teeth.
As soon as Jenred disappeared from the picture the Order of the Hawk disappeared from sight - because no one was committed enough to its principles to ensure they carried on being enforced. So all I'm saying is that those nobles (including current emperors) who were around back then yet complain about "dishonourable" behaviour by other realms weren't very good at putting their money where their mouth was when it came to the best tool FEI had for ensuring that honourable behaviour was followed.
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Had Coralynth and Sorraine declared war on Ohnar West and then marched, I don't think Arcaea would be mobilizing right now. Moving under a banner of peace and then declaring war is the kind of despicable act that motivates all kinds of people to put aside other objections to fighting.
I have no idea why Coralynth did that. No one in Sorraine knew they were doing it. They certainly didn't need to try and do it. Everyone knew the war was going to happen.
As for Sorraine, we declared war a full seven days before the attack landed.
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I have no idea why Coralynth did that. No one in Sorraine knew they were doing it. They certainly didn't need to try and do it. Everyone knew the war was going to happen.
As for Sorraine, we declared war a full seven days before the attack landed.
And Baranion, at least, has no problem with the way Sorraine has conducted itself militarily.
He is, however, steadfastly opposed to allowing Sartanism to take over the entire Far East, which appears to be Sorraine's guiding principle.
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I have no idea why Coralynth did that. No one in Sorraine knew they were doing it. They certainly didn't need to try and do it. Everyone knew the war was going to happen.
As for Sorraine, we declared war a full seven days before the attack landed.
I don't believe any of the IC anger is aimed at Sorraine. People might grumble that OW was a weak target for them to attack, but then that is the nature of conflict. Things might be different if it comes to pass that Sorraine sought Coralynths help in the attack though.
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The Order of the Hawk absolutely had teeth - but only when Jenred was around. He was its teeth.
As soon as Jenred disappeared from the picture the Order of the Hawk disappeared from sight - because no one was committed enough to its principles to ensure they carried on being enforced. So all I'm saying is that those nobles (including current emperors) who were around back then yet complain about "dishonourable" behaviour by other realms weren't very good at putting their money where their mouth was when it came to the best tool FEI had for ensuring that honourable behaviour was followed.
I don't think that's the case, at least when it comes to looting. Rape/killing has long been banned as a method of looting in Arcaea, and more than one noble has been punished and even banned for disobeying this. In additon, it is a specific term in the treaty all Empire realms have signed to abide by such looting restrictions as well.
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With regard to this war, I posted an OOC message to the rulers that would probably be best posted here as well:
Out-of-Character from Velax de Vere (2 days, 3 hours ago)
Message sent to the Rulers of Far East (5 recipients)
Alright, there's no easy way to explain this other than OOC. Arcaea's perhaps somewhat exaggerated outrage here isn't intended to shut down this war - it's trying to shake up the previous solid alliances. For a long time, wars in the Far East have been North vs South, more or less. With Kindara gone, the South doesn't really stand much of a chance now if old alliances remain stable. While it would certainly make IC sense for Arcaea and Sorraine and Coralynth to remain locked in alliance, dominating the island, I don't think it would be good for the health of the Far East to do so.
So in the interests of trying to keep things dynamic and exciting, I am attempting to break up these alliances to see new ones form. Just because Arcaea shakes a stick at you, please do not instantly back down. We have no intention of marching in to wipe out a realm because they are fighting a war we disagree with. We might march, certainly, but not with the intent of complete destruction. Not all wars must be fought to the death.
Just because Arcaea gets involved in a war doesn't mean we're trying to shut down all opposition. If we do get involved in the current war, we will not be looking to destroy Sorraine or Coralynth. We won't even be looking to take any regions, as we have quite enough already for our noble count. We're just trying to shake things up a bit when it comes to the alliances of the Far East.
Personally, I'd love to see a roughly East-West split come about. I think Arcaea, Zonasa and Ohnar vs Coralynth, Sorraine and Cathay would be a reasonably equal match.
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Eat west is an unworkable war for a large scale. Bad geography.
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Even if you promise not to destroy them, you can't expect them not to have a backing down reaction.
"Hey, I'm gonna beat you up with this huge stick until you are done, but don't worry, I'll make sure you live!" is of little comfort to most.
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Perhaps Arcaea is simply too big to allow new dynamics on the Far East...
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Perhaps Arcaea is simply too big to allow new dynamics on the Far East...
Well, you certainly wouldn't catch me complaining if it were to split up into 2 or 3 realms...
The trouble with something like that, as is often the case, is creating a believable IC rationale and getting the IC political will and clout behind it.
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Well, you certainly wouldn't catch me complaining if it were to split up into 2 or 3 realms...
The trouble with something like that, as is often the case, is creating a believable IC rationale and getting the IC political will and clout behind it.
That's kind of what I was trying to achieve in Arcaea - polarise matters religiously so that the two Sartanian dukes split off to create a new realm, thereby splitting Arcaea in two and creating the opportunity for conflict.
Because, as it is, Arcaea's geography means it would win pretty much any war but one where almost every single other realm ganged up on it.
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That's kind of what I was trying to achieve in Arcaea - polarise matters religiously so that the two Sartanian dukes split off to create a new realm, thereby splitting Arcaea in two and creating the opportunity for conflict.
Heh. That wouldn't be my first choice of a split...but it could work ;D
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That's kind of what I was trying to achieve in Arcaea - polarise matters religiously so that the two Sartanian dukes split off to create a new realm, thereby splitting Arcaea in two and creating the opportunity for conflict.
Because, as it is, Arcaea's geography means it would win pretty much any war but one where almost every single other realm ganged up on it.
And even then... It could probably just stomp them all over one at a time and come out victorious.
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Probably. We all know how bad Sartanians are at warfare.
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Probably. We all know how bad Sartanians are at warfare.
That is what happens when you spend all your time worshipping and talking about a god of War, instead of you know learning basic warfare.
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I have no interest in splitting Arcaea up at this point. While I could certainly see divesting ourselves of some of our regions, we don't have the nobles to create new realms. Perhaps back when Arcaea had 60-70 nobles, yes, but not when we have barely 30. I do not want to see Arcaea reduced to 10-15 nobles. At all.
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Well with Arcaea remaining the dominant realm on the continent with the ability to beat anyone and everyone that's not going to change because the whole continent will remain pretty boring - and boring realms/continents lose players.
And that really isn't helped by Arcaea deciding it has to get entangled in the first war that comes up - as it is everyone's going to basically have to to ask Arcaea for permission before they go to war in future.
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Who could have foreseen that one realm dominating the others would lead to stagnation ::)
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Well with Arcaea remaining the dominant realm on the continent with the ability to beat anyone and everyone that's not going to change because the whole continent will remain pretty boring - and boring realms/continents lose players.
And that really isn't helped by Arcaea deciding it has to get entangled in the first war that comes up - as it is everyone's going to basically have to to ask Arcaea for permission before they go to war in future.
Or you know, not tell blatant and obviously lies when getting ready for war.
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I have no interest in splitting Arcaea up at this point. While I could certainly see divesting ourselves of some of our regions, we don't have the nobles to create new realms. Perhaps back when Arcaea had 60-70 nobles, yes, but not when we have barely 30. I do not want to see Arcaea reduced to 10-15 nobles. At all.
Well, boo hoo, you might not be an ideal realm. Guess what? Neither are any of the rest of us on the continent.
What I read here is that you're all for doing things for OOC reasons to make the FEI more fun, until it's actually going to reduce your personal fun.
I guarantee you, the one thing that would increase fun on the FEI more than any other is to split up Arcaea. Until and unless that happens, anything you do may have marginal effects, but it cannot make the island dynamic.
Arcaea might be more fun and more successful as the biggest realm on the continent, with fully a third of the entire continent's regions and players. But the Far East as a whole is poorer because of it, and if you really mean what you say about making the Far East more fun and dynamic, you need to start factoring a split of Arcaea into your plans.
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Wait, what?
If memory serves, weren't you all on Arcaea's side during the war (Antonine excluded, sort of)? Now you think Arcaea overpowering everyone is a bad idea? Obviously I wasn't a fan of the empire model, and I've butted heads with Velax a few times, but he didn't do this by himself. None of you did anything to stop Arcaea dominating when it served your characters, and I don't want to hear that it wouldn't have made sense IC if you're telling Velax that he as a player needs to consider the island dynamic over his own IC agenda. I apologize if I'm coming off as a jerk here, and I don't disagree that Arcaea's size and influence is a the problem for FEI, but I am going to say that you really don't have a right to complain about the state of things when you knowingly contributed to making it that way.
Okay. Rant concluded. Going back to the happiness that is SI.
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Wait, what?
If memory serves, weren't you all on Arcaea's side during the war (Antonine excluded, sort of)? Now you think Arcaea overpowering everyone is a bad idea? Obviously I wasn't a fan of the empire model, and I've butted heads with Velax a few times, but he didn't do this by himself. None of you did anything to stop Arcaea dominating when it served your characters, and I don't want to hear that it wouldn't have made sense IC if you're telling Velax that he as a player needs to consider the island dynamic over his own IC agenda. I apologize if I'm coming off as a jerk here, and I don't disagree that Arcaea's size and influence is a the problem for FEI, but I am going to say that you really don't have a right to complain about the state of things when you knowingly contributed to making it that way.
Okay. Rant concluded. Going back to the happiness that is SI.
You realise that there is a difference between the fun of establishing a situation (arguably forming an empire was fun for many people) and the fun of then maintaining the system? The empire model also an aside of the actual conversation, which is relative power of realms. Even without the empire Arcaea would still be in a dominate position that arguably lessen the fun for the rest of the continent.
You also miss that Delvin isn't telling Velax what his objectives need to be. Velax listed his own objectives which was making some OOC decisions in order to shake up the continent, IE generate fun and interest. Delvin merely pointed out that his objective to achieve that is hindered by his also valid objective to maintain Arcaea as is. In other words his second objective, is in Delvin opinion, doing more to destroy the chance of achieving the first, then any action Velax may take to counter the second objective. So it is a matter of priorities, Velax is certainly entitled to focus on the fun of Arcaea first and foremost, but when it comes at the cost of fun continent wide, you will understand people will then take issue with him also claiming to be working to increase fun continent wide.
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Arcaea's been the biggest, baddest realm on the Far East for more than five years now. What, exactly, has changed now that it's suddenly creating boredom and stagnation when it didn't before?
Well, boo hoo, you might not be an ideal realm. Guess what? Neither are any of the rest of us on the continent.
What I read here is that you're all for doing things for OOC reasons to make the FEI more fun, until it's actually going to reduce your personal fun.
I guarantee you, the one thing that would increase fun on the FEI more than any other is to split up Arcaea. Until and unless that happens, anything you do may have marginal effects, but it cannot make the island dynamic.
Arcaea might be more fun and more successful as the biggest realm on the continent, with fully a third of the entire continent's regions and players. But the Far East as a whole is poorer because of it, and if you really mean what you say about making the Far East more fun and dynamic, you need to start factoring a split of Arcaea into your plans.
So to increase your fun, I should reduce the fun of the 30 other players that my character is directly responsible for? No. It isn't my job to make things interesting for your realm. That's your job. I'm doing my best to make things more interesting for the Far East, but I'll be damned if I cripple my realm and the fun for the players of Arcaea.
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Arcaea's been the biggest, baddest realm on the Far East for more than five years now. What, exactly, has changed now that it's suddenly creating boredom and stagnation when it didn't before?
So to increase your fun, I should reduce the fun of the 30 other players that my character is directly responsible for? No. It isn't my job to make things interesting for your realm. That's your job. I'm doing my best to make things more interesting for the Far East, but I'll be damned if I cripple my realm and the fun for the players of Arcaea.
Who said that splitting your realm into an Arcaean civil war would lead to less fun for your players? I personally would love a civil war, few events provide so much narrative as that.
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Arcaea's been the biggest, baddest realm on the Far East for more than five years now. What, exactly, has changed now that it's suddenly creating boredom and stagnation when it didn't before?
There's no one left on the continent who's actively seeking to oppose Arcaea. All the Free Realms have either been destroyed, or surrendered to the Empire. I'd say that's a pretty big difference.
So to increase your fun, I should reduce the fun of the 30 other players that my character is directly responsible for? No. It isn't my job to make things interesting for your realm. That's your job. I'm doing my best to make things more interesting for the Far East, but I'll be damned if I cripple my realm and the fun for the players of Arcaea.
First of all, not just mine personally, but that of the other 50 players on the continent.
Secondly, unusually enough, I agree with GundamMerc. Just because you're doing something that's not in the best interests of Arcaea as a realm doesn't mean that the players in Arcaea will be having less fun.
Finally, I wouldn't even be talking about this if you hadn't just come on the ruler channel and the forum speaking strongly OOC about the virtues of adjusting your plans and playstyle in order to increase the fun for the entire continent. Like De-Legro said, if that is an objective of yours, you need to at least acknowledge that it is in direct conflict with your other objective of maintaining Arcaea's power, even if you then decide that maintaining Arcaea's power is more important to you than maximizing the fun of the Far East.
(And I should certainly add, it's not like that would put you in some kind of exclusive club. I've never sacrificed a realm I ruled for the fun of the continent, either, nor do I know offhand of anyone who has...but then, I've never been the ruler of the single powerhouse realm of a continent in a time when that continent was in crisis. If I was, I can't honestly say what my decision would be.)
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You realise that there is a difference between the fun of establishing a situation (arguably forming an empire was fun for many people) and the fun of then maintaining the system?
Of course? But I believe it is incredibly short-sighted to think that the fun of establishing the system wouldn't lead to the crippling effect of maintaining it, if not by intent, then by the nature of the beast.
The empire model also an aside of the actual conversation, which is relative power of realms. Even without the empire Arcaea would still be in a dominate position that arguably lessen the fun for the rest of the continent.
They're quite related. Other realms embracing the empire has allowed Arcaea to stay powerful. It's big because too few took the opportunity to oppose it when there was a window to do so. Now Arcaea is supposed to break up because no one tried to take a bite out it? And is being told this by the people who didn't take a bite out of it? If you don't want overbearing realms in this game you have to start wars, join wars, take regions, not hope somebody is going to hit a balancing button for you once you help them win. That is an incredibly unhealthy expectation that goes beyond the FEI.
So it is a matter of priorities, Velax is certainly entitled to focus on the fun of Arcaea first and foremost, but when it comes at the cost of fun continent wide, you will understand people will then take issue with him also claiming to be working to increase fun continent wide.
I think there is no merit in complaining about the guy running things or the way he runs things when you put him there knowing that this is exactly how it would be because it's what he advertised from the beginning as his style of fun. It irks me to no end, that while I thought there were simply more people in favor of the Arcaean experiment than not, and that it was a system people were going to have fun trying to play, that apparently folks were just doing what was easy at the time while hoping someone was going to fix it for them later. To me this is the opposite of the way BM was intended to be played.
Anger!
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Of course? But I believe it is incredibly short-sighted to think that the fun of establishing the system wouldn't lead to the crippling effect of maintaining it, if not by intent, then by the nature of the beast.
They're quite related. Other realms embracing the empire has allowed Arcaea to stay powerful. It's big because too few took the opportunity to oppose it when there was a window to do so. Now Arcaea is supposed to break up because no one tried to take a bite out it? And is being told this by the people who didn't take a bite out of it? If you don't want overbearing realms in this game you have to start wars, join wars, take regions, not hope somebody is going to hit a balancing button for you once you help them win. That is an incredibly unhealthy expectation that goes beyond the FEI.
I think there is no merit in complaining about the guy running things or the way he runs things when you put him there knowing that this is exactly how it would be because it's what he advertised from the beginning as his style of fun. It irks me to no end, that while I thought there were simply more people in favor of the Arcaean experiment than not, and that it was a system people were going to have fun trying to play, that apparently folks were just doing what was easy at the time while hoping someone was going to fix it for them later. To me this is the opposite of the way BM was intended to be played.
Anger!
When the experiment started, which since I was playing there back then and was part of the Arcaea ruling council, back long before Velax rose to any sort of power, it was started in an atmosphere where the client states would, if united, be far more powerful then Arcaea. The experiement never made Arcaea stronger in an absolute sense, indeed like all of FEI is has weakened considerable in absolute terms. Due however to other factors, many outside of the control of anyone in power now, there remains now power base like was envisioned when we created the concept of the empire.
But again you miss the point. While people might not like our FEI has turned out, that is hardly a unique thing. Continents often evolve in a way that many dislike. The umbrage was purely due to previous comments from Velax that implied that his focus was improving FEI as a continent, when in peoples opinion his course of action was the single biggest hurdle to achieving that.
Personally it doesn't bother me about the Empire. I am happy to see that something I worked with Bedwyr and others so long ago has actually grown momentum of its own even when the majority of the principle players that initiated it left. I simply attempted to explain that you are viewing the complainant from a odd trajectory.
They're quite related. Other realms embracing the empire has allowed Arcaea to stay powerful. It's big because too few took the opportunity to oppose it when there was a window to do so. Now Arcaea is supposed to break up because no one tried to take a bite out it? And is being told this by the people who didn't take a bite out of it? If you don't want overbearing realms in this game you have to start wars, join wars, take regions, not hope somebody is going to hit a balancing button for you once you help them win. That is an incredibly unhealthy expectation that goes beyond the FEI.
Please, you show a complete lack of knowledge regarding the history here. There was a time when OW was the ONLY realm allied with Arcaea in bringing this about, Cathay was neutral, Kindara likewise and every other realm was united against Arcaea. Arcaea was fighting a war on two fronts and just managing to hold off loss of land. Plenty of people over the years attempted to fight against this.
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But again you miss the point. While people might not like our FEI has turned out, that is hardly a unique thing.
No, I agree that it's not a unique thing.
Continents often evolve in a way that many dislike.
Because we allow a nonsense mindset like that of this case to inform our decisions.
Personally it doesn't bother me about the Empire.
I don't have a horse in that race anymore. The reaction to it, after everything, is what's killing me.
I simply attempted to explain that you are viewing the complainant from a odd trajectory.
I recognize that it may be an odd objection, but to me this issue is the embodiment of some festering core problem in our approach to gameplay and the reason that hardly anyone is happy with anything despite the fact that we control everything. And I am going to rage about it!
Please, you show a complete lack of knowledge regarding the history here. There was a time when OW was the ONLY realm allied with Arcaea in bringing this about, Cathay was neutral, Kindara likewise and every other realm was united against Arcaea. Arcaea was fighting a war on two fronts and just managing to hold off loss of land. Plenty of people over the years attempted to fight against this.
You know I was in Arcaea/the Noca with you at that time, right? And Kindara. I'm not talking about the entire history of the FEI here. I'm talking about when people all over started really whining about Arcaean hegemony around the hearthright war, and then decided that the best course of action would be to...side with Arcaea. And now nobody who's left likes the playfield and Arcaea should break up for the sake of everyone's fun. That's insane. If people didn't want them to win and continue to be this dominant they should have done something other than help them win. Could they have succeeded? Who knows! But that's how it works. You don't get to expect the result of going to war against a realm and the result of allying with them to be the same in the end. You don't get to expect a dominant realm to downsize regardless of whether or not you put any effort into making it smaller.
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No, I agree that it's not a unique thing.
Because we allow a nonsense mindset like that of this case to inform our decisions.
I don't have a horse in that race anymore. The reaction to it, after everything, is what's killing me.
I recognize that it may be an odd objection, but to me this issue is the embodiment of some festering core problem in our approach to gameplay and the reason that hardly anyone is happy with anything despite the fact that we control everything. And I am going to rage about it!
You know I was in Arcaea/the Noca with you at that time, right? And Kindara. I'm not talking about the entire history of the FEI here. I'm talking about when people all over started really whining about Arcaean hegemony around the hearthright war, and then decided that the best course of action would be to...side with Arcaea. And now nobody who's left likes the playfield and Arcaea should break up for the sake of everyone's fun. That's insane. If people didn't want them to win and continue to be this dominant they should have done something other than help them win. Could they have succeeded? Who knows! But that's how it works. You don't get to expect the result of going to war against a realm and the result of allying with them to be the same in the end. You don't get to expect a dominant realm to downsize regardless of whether or not you put any effort into making it smaller.
Sure you can. We are all players of the game and ideally when the game has the player base problem it currently does you can expect long term high profile players to perhaps take a game wide view based on the current situation. We can not really afford for yet more continents to stagnate just because the dominate power is having fun, regardless of how the dominate power came to be. You can't FORCE them to, but you can certainly put across a point of view that prioritises this, especially when the player has expressed that such a thing is one of his goals.
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First of all, not just mine personally, but that of the other 50 players on the continent.
Oh, you mean don't appreciate when someone accuses you of doing something for your own gain when you're actually thinking of more than just yourself? Like when you accused me of putting my personal fun above that of the continent?
Finally, I wouldn't even be talking about this if you hadn't just come on the ruler channel and the forum speaking strongly OOC about the virtues of adjusting your plans and playstyle in order to increase the fun for the entire continent. Like De-Legro said, if that is an objective of yours, you need to at least acknowledge that it is in direct conflict with your other objective of maintaining Arcaea's power, even if you then decide that maintaining Arcaea's power is more important to you than maximizing the fun of the Far East.
But again you miss the point. While people might not like our FEI has turned out, that is hardly a unique thing. Continents often evolve in a way that many dislike. The umbrage was purely due to previous comments from Velax that implied that his focus was improving FEI as a continent, when in peoples opinion his course of action was the single biggest hurdle to achieving that.
So what you're both saying is that you wouldn't have made a peep if I did nothing at all, but because I'm trying to do something to help the Far East, but not sacrificing everything that has been built up over the last five-eight years to "maximise" everyone else's fun, you get to jump up and down and criticise?
I'll remind you that it's Arcaea that loses with what I've done. I've essentially tossed away two alliances and multiple IC friendships built up over years that would have allowed Arcaea to completely dominate the island with no chance whatsoever to fall out of power. Arcaea isn't the massive powerhouse it once was and the loss of those alliances leaves the realm more vulnerable that you obviously know. But if any effort I make isn't enough for you unless I deliberately tear down what took years to build, then you know what? Too. !@#$ing. Bad.
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Valex's should do what he does. I think any change is going to have to come from somewhere else anyway. If I was a duke in Arcaea I would be thinking about the possibility of the independent city states of Arcaea or even just going off and starting a war with just my duchy. If I was a ruler of any other land I would be trying very hard to make a lot of friends and asserting regional autonomy; say the right to make war without Arcaean intervention on either side and a willingness to back that up. There are a lot of ways to shake things up but valex the Uniter , valex the katamari of the fei has shown his IC intentions and ambitions and you should expect him to continue and maybe develop some of your own. If things don't go your way try something different, the worst the powerful can do is lose the status of their puppet states or their own stagnant position. If you aren't willing to lose shaking things up then you're just supporting the status quo and making sure to put your full power into keeping things stagnant.
But seriously much love to all the winners and losers and to the rest don't be scared to play.
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From a realistic stand point, this was the inevitable conclusion from the failed glacier experiment that tactically nuked Kindara.
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So what you're both saying is that you wouldn't have made a peep if I did nothing at all, but because I'm trying to do something to help the Far East, but not sacrificing everything that has been built up over the last five-eight years to "maximise" everyone else's fun, you get to jump up and down and criticise?
I'll remind you that it's Arcaea that loses with what I've done. I've essentially tossed away two alliances and multiple IC friendships built up over years that would have allowed Arcaea to completely dominate the island with no chance whatsoever to fall out of power. Arcaea isn't the massive powerhouse it once was and the loss of those alliances leaves the realm more vulnerable that you obviously know. But if any effort I make isn't enough for you unless I deliberately tear down what took years to build, then you know what? Too. !@#$ing. Bad.
What I am saying is that from my reading of Delvins original post, he took issue with what he viewed as a switch and bait. It seemed to him from various sources that you were wanting to put FEI above all other considerations, but then when push came to shove their were conditions. Thus the issue is not so much the course of action taken, but the disappointment that it was not the course of action that he felt was implied by earlier statements. Sort of similar to how most people feel after a political campaign when all those lofty promises are revised to real world implementation.
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That would be understandable if I had ever said I intended to split Arcaea up. I have not. I have done everything I said I would do and more to try to liven things up.
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That would be understandable if I had ever said I intended to split Arcaea up. I have not. I have done everything I said I would do and more to try to liven things up.
If someone had implied their top priority was to generate or aid fun in FEI, and a certain situation was the largest contributor by far to prevent such a goal, it does not take a explicit statement for someone to believe the course of action to rectify it is a reasonable expectation. Right now the general feeling on FEI is if ANYONE tries to do anything, Arcaea will stick their nose in. Doesn't matter if Arcaea promises not to destroy realms, the consensus is fast becoming that unless Arcaea endorses your course of action, it is doomed to failure. If that attitude really take root, then it will simply kill any incentive for the remainder of the island to bother setting up any situations at all.
Arcaea is in a tough position, if they attempt to create their own war, people will cry they are bullies. If they join other peoples wars as in this situation, people will cry they are enforcing their will upon the continent. If they do nothing then obviously there is less fun for Arcaea. Welcome to being the Top Dog, it is never a very pleasant path.
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It is not a reasonable expectation if:
1. I didn't say, anywhere, that my top priority was to generate or aid fun in the Far East. It is something I am trying to do, but nowhere have I said I will pursue that goal to the detriment of everything else; and
2. If rectifying the situation apparently involves crippling my realm, tossing everything that was built up over years in the toilet and potentially making things less fun for the 30 nobles my character is directly responsible for.
Proportionally, Arcaea has lost as many nobles as any other current realm. In sheer numbers, we've lost a lot more. I won't intentionally cripple us further, and I doubt anyone else would do the same to their realm either.
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Proportionally, Arcaea has lost as many nobles as any other current realm. In sheer numbers, we've lost a lot more. I won't intentionally cripple us further, and I doubt anyone else would do the same to their realm either.
Indeed Delvin already stated he would not personally do so to a realm he controlled, yet obviously he gained the impression from somewhere that you were going to prioritise the continuation of FEI above all other consideration.
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What really makes me disappointed in you, Velax, is that in all of this, you just keep on talking about what it will mean for what you've built, for Arcaea, if it splits up.
And let me be very clear: I am in no way suggesting that Velax de Vere should personally advocate an IC course of action that leads to Arcaea splitting up. Baranion's certainly not going to suggest that Arcaea splitting up is a good idea, either; after all, without Arcaea's friendship, Zonasa is still a pretty small, weak realm, likely to get jumped on by multiple other realms on the continent.
I am saying that Eoghan Barry, the player, should, at the very least, acknowledge that doing so would increase the overall fun of the Far East Island significantly. I am saying that, furthermore, you need to seriously consider just what it is that Arcaea plans to do right now, because like De-Legro said, pretty much any action Arcaea tries to take will result in either instant capitulation, or a faceroll. No one wants to fight the ten-ton gorilla. I am saying that you need to consider to what extent the best interests of the realm—as in, its power and survival—are actually congruent with the fun of its players.
If you can find a way to make the Far East Island dynamic and fun without breaking up Arcaea into multiple realms, I am all for that. I'd be happy to hear suggestions. (Hell, if you don't want to state anything publicly, I'd be happy to hear "I've got a plan, just give me a few days/weeks/months." After all, that's pretty much my response to Hyral here—and what I've said repeatedly when people ask me what I'm going to do about the future of the FEI.)
But just saying, on the one hand, "Hey guys, I'm trying to make the FEI more fun, so don't just stop fighting when I speak up," and on the other, "I'm not going to even consider doing anything that would reduce Arcaea's power, no matter what that means for the fun of the continent," sounds more than a tad hypocritical.
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If you can find a way to make the Far East Island dynamic and fun without breaking up Arcaea into multiple realms, I am all for that. I'd be happy to hear suggestions.
Arcaea just declared war against its two closest allies. These are the realms that geographically encompasses Arcaea's core regions. They're two regions away from Arcaea's capital. They also have a combined military strength higher than Arcaea. There's real danger there.
Have you ever seen the Cagilan Empire declare war against Talerium and Tara?
It's been only three months since the last war ended. There seems to be good IC politics brewing with new grudges being established. New wars are being launched. Give it a chance.
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Arcaea just declared war against its two closest allies. These are the realms that geographically encompasses Arcaea's core regions. They're two regions away from Arcaea's capital. They also have a combined military strength higher than Arcaea. There's real danger there.
So it has. Sorry, I hadn't logged into the game yet today; my last information was that Velax had spoken against Coralynth and Sorraine, but there was still a danger of them backing down without anything more happening.
It's been only three months since the last war ended. There seems to be good IC politics brewing with new grudges being established. New wars are being launched. Give it a chance.
I'm happy to. I'm just frustrated that Velax doesn't seem to think that it matters at all to the fun of the continent that Arcaea is so strong.
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What Anaris says.
IC I absolutely don't expect Velax to break up Arcaea. But for RL years we've been hearing OOC that Arcaea conquering FEI won't be bad for the game because realms will be able to fight each other and it will be really fun for players.
The fact is that Arcaea's geography makes it unbeatable. It has the most cities, the most gold, the most nobles and even the food shortages which used to cripple it don't exist anymore. OOC that's a problem. So the player of Velax should be thinking about that and how to improve it.
And immediately intervening to stop realms from settling a long standing grudge they have isn't going to improve things. Yes it creates animosity against Arcaea but that's it. And even if Sorraine/Coralynth have more CS than Arcaea that won't last when Arcaea has more nobles and more resources to fall back on - and especially not when they're both also fighting Ohnar West while Cathay considers joining in against Sorraine too.
Besides which, Arcaea isn't fun. Sorry, but it's not. It's fun if you're one of the top people maybe but the average knight has limited chances of progression and there's very little to shake up the dynamics of the realm. The king is in power for life. The judge is in power for life. The banker is in power for life. The general is in power for life. The dukes are in power for life.
At least if Arcaea was split in two there'd be more opportunities for the average noble to advance. Plus the two halves would be likely to be involved in more wars (along with the rest of the continent) which is the best thing for increasing player numbers and retention.
Look at Ar Agyr on Beluaterra. Tiny realm with few nobles and absolutely silent while it was at peace. Once it was at war it doubled the number of its nobles, despite defections, simply because there were actually things happening.
So Barry, I can't criticise the character of Velax for doing what he's doing but as the single most powerful player on the continent I really don't think you're doing enough to let the continent become more fun.
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To take a more geopolitical perspective, here's how I see things.
The FEI is currently the Holy Roman Empire. Lots of sovereign realms theoretically united by a single system.
Unfortunately, the version of the Holy Roman Empire we have is one where Arcaea is the Habsburgs at the height of their power. Yes, wars can happen within the empire but the fundamental dynamics of it are trapped in a particular pattern.
What we need is the medieval version of it where the emperorship changed hands regularly. I personally don't see how it would be any less fun for the players in Arcaea to be in a rump realm with the title of emperor, constantly having to watch out for rivals, than to be the almighty Habsburgs with no meaningful opposition.
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Can you really be sure that Arcaea splitting up would make FEI more fun for most players?
Problem is often a lot of the choices that were done OOC with the hopes of making things more fun ended up not working out.
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Well in my experience the things that make things more fun are lots of challenging wars and lots of diplomatic upheaval. Personally I've always believed that the best way to do that is to have lots of small realms. So that's where my line of thinking is coming from.
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Sure you can. We are all players of the game and ideally when the game has the player base problem it currently does you can expect long term high profile players to perhaps take a game wide view based on the current situation. We can not really afford for yet more continents to stagnate just because the dominate power is having fun, regardless of how the dominate power came to be. You can't FORCE them to, but you can certainly put across a point of view that prioritises this, especially when the player has expressed that such a thing is one of his goals.
No, what we don't need is for more people to think that they don't have to do anything for things to get done. Stagnation doesn't just happen. It's not a natural disaster that you can't see coming. There is no 'regardless of how' when it comes to crippled islands. The how is exactly the point. The how is what we do every time we make a decision for our characters. You can't skip over it. You reap what you sow. Don't need a stagnated continent? Don't do your damnedest to make it that way. The game won't function if we go on with the mindset that it's okay to avoid doing all the things that make the game dynamic because we're entitled to receive a dynamic game via altruistic mercy-magic after the fact. That is insane.
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The game won't function if we go on with the mindset that it's okay to avoid doing all the things that make the game dynamic because we're entitled to receive a dynamic game via altruistic mercy-magic after the fact. That is insane.
You done with your strawman?
Because at no time did I say that I was going to sit back and let everyone else make life interesting.
I've got plans, I'm just not ready to share them with the world at large. Like I said, give me a few days/weeks/months/years.
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No, what we don't need is for more people to think that they don't have to do anything for things to get done. Stagnation doesn't just happen. It's not a natural disaster that you can't see coming. There is no 'regardless of how' when it comes to crippled islands. The how is exactly the point. The how is what we do every time we make a decision for our characters. You can't skip over it. You reap what you sow. Don't need a stagnated continent? Don't do your damnedest to make it that way. The game won't function if we go on with the mindset that it's okay to avoid doing all the things that make the game dynamic because we're entitled to receive a dynamic game via altruistic mercy-magic after the fact. That is insane.
Suggesting that one group takes some form of action in no way means that other groups aren't going to take action. Hell other groups DID take action and started a war, one that quickly cooled because Arcaea threw their weight into it. Would it have been nice if the attempts by others to prevent this had worked previously? Sure. Would we perhaps not have arrived here had other realms made different choices, possible I haven't been on FEI since long before the glacier, only recently returning so I'm not 100% across the alliances that resulted in the empire.
Regardless we are in a situation where the least populated continent aside from the colonies is generating an atmosphere were players in realms other then Arcaea are feeling they have no real reason to keep going. How we arrived there and how it could have been stopped are useful discussions, finding a way to fix it is a far more important one.
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You done with your strawman?
Because at no time did I say that I was going to sit back and let everyone else make life interesting.
I've got plans, I'm just not ready to share them with the world at large. Like I said, give me a few days/weeks/months/years.
Don't bother snarking me because you're feeling defensive. My clearly labeled and quoted message was in response to De-Legro's assertion that, yes, you can expect big realms to downsize regardless of what you do or don't do, in the name of fun for everyone.
I'll give you however long you want? My only issue with you personally, if it can be so called, is that I have no idea where you can pull complaints about Arcaean dominance from given your actions until now.
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Don't bother snarking me because you're feeling defensive. My clearly labeled and quoted message was in response to De-Legro's assertion that, yes, you can expect big realms to downsize regardless of what you do or don't do, in the name of fun for everyone.
I'll give you however long you want? My only issue with you personally, if it can be so called, is that I have no idea where you can pull complaints about Arcaean dominance from given your actions until now.
Yup, but as players we know those big monolithic realms are stagnating the game. We are losing players which basically means that unless something changes the game can not continue as it is. Glaciers were unpopular, the other alternative that was considered was simply closing islands which would hardly be more popular. Unless the mindset of the player base shifts to making the game fun for the majority of players, we will continue to see people leave when they feel they and their realms are irrelevant in the game world, and if that continues it will hardly matter if you are the largest kid on the block, cause very likely you will be the only kid on the block.
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Don't bother snarking me because you're feeling defensive. My clearly labeled and quoted message was in response to De-Legro's assertion that, yes, you can expect big realms to downsize regardless of what you do or don't do, in the name of fun for everyone.
I'm not feeling defensive; I was under the impression that your discussion with De-Legro was still in regards to my alleged hypocrisy. If I misunderstood the direction of your ire, I apologize.
I'll give you however long you want? My only issue with you personally, if it can be so called, is that I have no idea where you can pull complaints about Arcaean dominance from given your actions until now.
So, what, you think that because I supported Arcaea when it happened to be wiping out your realm—which, by the way, I would like to remind you was hellbent on wiping out my realm at the time—I'm not allowed to criticise them later on? Because I was opposed to something you wanted in the past, I'm never allowed to voice any support for anything you want in the future?
The world's not that black and white, Hyral. Even the small slice of it that is the BattleMaster playerbase has plenty of room for shades of grey. Just because my character was your character's enemy in the past doesn't mean that I am your enemy.
Hell, I'm not even Velax's enemy. I'm not even mad at him. (Mildly irritated, I'll admit to ;) ) I just disagree with him on this one point.
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The way the Empire ended up getting implemented is indeed very different than the original vision Jenred (and indeed, Arcaea at large, as I will note for those unaware that embarking on the course of Empire was actually put to public debate, and Jenred stated at the time that in his not so humble assessment he thought the most likely outcome was the complete destruction of Arcaea) had.
The whole thing was actually the result of a thought experiment kicked around on IRC for a while as we discussed problems with Battlemaster (and indeed, specifically looked at the Holy Roman Empire). I posited that what Battlemaster really needed was some sort of way to have realm duels. After some discussion, it was decided that there was no mechanical way to enforce such a thing, so I tried to come up with a system (again, with a lot of help) that would result in a political situation where you could actually enforce limited wars. The idea being that, say, Coralynth could Challenge Ohnar West to a war, and then Arcaea (and everyone else) would enforce strict neutrality on everyone else (which of course would lead to all kinds of conflict regarding indirect assistance and the like).
Plus, the original plan was to have Jenred's wife Edara secede from Arcaea, form a new realm with Talex/Topenah (and at various points, Colasan), and have Jenred join that realm...Making that new realm the Imperial realm (at least until someone else won a challenge against them) and weakening Arcaea significantly.
I know both IC and OOC that there are other plans Velax has cooking, and I'm very interested to see how they work out, but I would like to posit that something like this is a decent fallback plan (grins).
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Well in my experience the things that make things more fun are lots of challenging wars and lots of diplomatic upheaval. Personally I've always believed that the best way to do that is to have lots of small realms. So that's where my line of thinking is coming from.
That used to be how I thought, until small realms became the norm and small realms started getting really, really small. Then it got kind of lonely, with no one to talk to, and most elections resulting in zero competition.
Noble-wise, Arcaea isn't all that big for standards of just a couple of years back.
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That used to be how I thought, until small realms became the norm and small realms started getting really, really small. Then it got kind of lonely, with no one to talk to, and most elections resulting in zero competition.
Noble-wise, Arcaea isn't all that big for standards of just a couple of years back.
Yes, any fewer then 20 characters makes for a quiet realm in general, though that can depend on who is behind the characters. Of course the obvious alternative to splitting up Arcaea is to get more characters into the existing realms, or perhaps merge some of them.
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I'm not feeling defensive; I was under the impression that your discussion with De-Legro was still in regards to my alleged hypocrisy. If I misunderstood the direction of your ire, I apologize.
I mentioned upthread that I thought the issue being discussed with De-Legro was a problem seen not just on the FEI in general but throughout BM and that I was going to rage about it.
So, what, you think that because I supported Arcaea when it happened to be wiping out your realm—which, by the way, I would like to remind you was hellbent on wiping out my realm at the time—I'm not allowed to criticise them later on? Because I was opposed to something you wanted in the past, I'm never allowed to voice any support for anything you want in the future?
The world's not that black and white, Hyral. Even the small slice of it that is the BattleMaster playerbase has plenty of room for shades of grey. Just because my character was your character's enemy in the past doesn't mean that I am your enemy.
No seriously, you are feeling defensive. I didn't say or even remotely suggest any of those things.
Arcaea is doing exactly what it said it would do. You knew what you were signing up for. So I don't understand how you can complain about it when they make good on their plans. That's it. None of that drama in quotes up there.
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I mentioned upthread that I thought the issue being discussed with De-Legro was a problem seen not just on the FEI in general but throughout BM and that I was going to rage about it.
No seriously, you are feeling defensive. I didn't say or even remotely suggest any of those things.
Arcaea is doing exactly what it said it would do. You knew what you were signing up for. So I don't understand how you can complain about it when they make good on their plans. That's it. None of that drama in quotes up there.
How is involving themselves in the war have anything to do with the concept of limited wars that was the entire reason for formulating the concept of the Empire in the first place? I could understand them attempting to keep Coralynth out of the war, but to declare against Sorraine as well simply destroys the core concept that the empire will allow wars among member states and act to prevent escalation (and gang bangs)
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I would really support the idea of breaking up Arcaea. That's also something I suggested OOC privately to Velax, which he disagreed based on lack of nobles. But the truth is that nobles left because they feel irrelevant and boring.
Personally I won't mind breaking down Cathay if that can contribute more fun to the island. I was talking to the royal council OOC that maybe we should have just let Cathay die back in the last war if that means the players will stay in the island and fight in some other war. Cathay has lost some of our active players since the end of the war, which was a huge hit to us. If we had the former team, we would have jumped into the current one without a second thought.
Looking forward, I believe every realm needs to jump into a war right away for the sake of retaining good players. It turns out that wars, schemes, and rebellions, are the most fun part of the game. I believe empire building is fun too, but only to few people on top of the command chain.
The above is a bit off topic. The idea of burying OW now is just like continuing the thought process of the old cold war. It shows lack of creativity. But on the other side, the idea of Arcea preventing the destruction of OW is even worse… It’s like a declaration that no one should ever attempt anything. So it goes back to the old topic again that Arcaea must be broken down. In that case, everyone has an equal opportunity again.
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The problem with trying to save OW is that to many people have too many good reasons to wipe them out. Current reasons, based on recent actions, not just old and stale reasons.
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The problem with trying to save OW is that to many people have too many good reasons to wipe them out. Current reasons, based on recent actions, not just old and stale reasons.
Why save OW? Don't they have, like, 4 nobles or something?
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Close enough.
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Going to reply a bit to De-Legro's responses that have backed up...quote spam warning. I promise it's over.
Suggesting that one group takes some form of action in no way means that other groups aren't going to take action.
Except that your suggestion here is that Arcaea break up so everyone can go about their merry way without having to have done anything. So while it doesn't strictly prevent other groups from taking action on their own, it eliminates the need to via free-pass.
Regardless we are in a situation where the least populated continent aside from the colonies is generating an atmosphere were players in realms other then Arcaea are feeling they have no real reason to keep going. How we arrived there and how it could have been stopped are useful discussions, finding a way to fix it is a far more important one.
I don't disagree that the FEI needs a way out, but I vehemently disagree with the way you're suggesting.
Yup, but as players we know those big monolithic realms are stagnating the game.
So don't support them?
We are losing players which basically means that unless something changes the game can not continue as it is. Glaciers were unpopular, the other alternative that was considered was simply closing islands which would hardly be more popular. Unless the mindset of the player base shifts to making the game fun for the majority of players, we will continue to see people leave when they feel they and their realms are irrelevant in the game world, and if that continues it will hardly matter if you are the largest kid on the block, cause very likely you will be the only kid on the block.
We agree that the player mindset needs to be changed, and that it needs to focus on making the game more engaging, but we still diverge when it comes to implementation. It's too late to start thinking about what's fun for everyone once the island is in a swamp. Folks needed to be thinking about that before. Fun for everyone starts with what you yourself can do to make the game fun. Expecting someone else to preform some balance-fu after the fact if people aren't happy with where their decisions led them is just...wrong.
How is involving themselves in the war have anything to do with the concept of limited wars that was the entire reason for formulating the concept of the Empire in the first place? I could understand them attempting to keep Coralynth out of the war, but to declare against Sorraine as well simply destroys the core concept that the empire will allow wars among member states and act to prevent escalation (and gang bangs)
I'm guessing we have different interpretations of allow. As to preventing escalation and gang bangs, it kind of sounds like they intended to do that too.
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Going to reply a bit to De-Legro's responses that have backed up...quote spam warning. I promise it's over.
Except that your suggestion here is that Arcaea break up so everyone can go about their merry way without having to have done anything. So while it doesn't strictly prevent other groups from taking action on their own, it eliminates the need to via free-pass.
I don't disagree that the FEI needs a way out, but I vehemently disagree with the way you're suggesting.
So don't support them?
We agree that the player mindset needs to be changed, and that it needs to focus on making the game more engaging, but we still diverge when it comes to implementation. It's too late to start thinking about what's fun for everyone once the island is in a swamp. Folks needed to be thinking about that before. Fun for everyone starts with what you yourself can do to make the game fun. Expecting someone else to preform some balance-fu after the fact if people aren't happy with where their decisions led them is just...wrong.
I'm guessing we have different interpretations of allow. As to preventing escalation and gang bangs, it kind of sounds like they intended to do that too.
Except now the war is shaping up to be everyone vs the two originating realms, yeah sure no gang bang there at all, for the first war since the empire was formed.
We agree that the player mindset needs to be changed, and that it needs to focus on making the game more engaging, but we still diverge when it comes to implementation. It's too late to start thinking about what's fun for everyone once the island is in a swamp. Folks needed to be thinking about that before. Fun for everyone starts with what you yourself can do to make the game fun. Expecting someone else to preform some balance-fu after the fact if people aren't happy with where their decisions led them is just...wrong.
Those with the greatest power have the greatest responsibility in regards to fun and balance. That has always been the case, and is one of the key responsibilities to those whom hold council positions. Realms that have greater power on an island, no matter how they came by it by extension end up with even greater responsibility then the same positions in other realms, simply because in general they have more opportunity to do so.
If the empire model looked like working, then Arcaea being the biggest fish in a small pond would be less of an issue. The fact that the first war since the founding of the empire is already degenerating into another continent wide war shows that what people thought they were buying into is not working out in reality, thus something needs to be done to redress that before the damage to motivation really gets under way.
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...thus something needs to be done to redress that before the damage to motivation really gets under way.
Too late.
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The problem with trying to save OW is that to many people have too many good reasons to wipe them out. Current reasons, based on recent actions, not just old and stale reasons.
Zonasa's not joining the war to save OW. They're joining the war to prevent Sartanism from taking over the world and to protest Coralynth's truly appalling behaviour.
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My duchy was given permission to split off but with only 6 nobles in the Duchy I'm not sure how viable I f a realm we would be.
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That's about as many as coralynth or ow and I'm sure they have a lot more regions to manage. Do it!! You'll probably attract more nobles. And definately ssmake some more fun.
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That's about as many as coralynth or ow and I'm sure they have a lot more regions to manage. Do it!! You'll probably attract more nobles. And definately ssmake some more fun.
Having so few nobles, and thus no prospect to do anything meaningful, is part of why I left Coralynth with a couple other nobles. That and the gangbang mentality.
Having so few nobles is not enviable. I would definately not do it. Even IVF, when I formed it, had more nobles than that... and it was way too small.
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A better secession would include Talex and Topenah in my opinion. That should have a better number of nobles and be more viable. Plus it would balance the continent more.
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(And I should certainly add, it's not like that would put you in some kind of exclusive club. I've never sacrificed a realm I ruled for the fun of the continent, either, nor do I know offhand of anyone who has...but then, I've never been the ruler of the single powerhouse realm of a continent in a time when that continent was in crisis. If I was, I can't honestly say what my decision would be.)
Merlin did, intentionally or not. Coria perhaps wasn't a powerhouse (though we were on the up & up), but we were an important cog in the machine at the time.
I haven't managed to keep up with the rest of the thread and honestly lack much experience with FEI to go on, but I wanted to give some credit where it's due.
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And what a surprise, Ohnar West has just been KRBing in Nbasah. So much for Arcaean involvement in the war being about "honour".
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And what a surprise, Ohnar West has just been KRBing in Nbasah. So much for Arcaean involvement in the war being about "honour".
Even OW wants Arcaea to back out and let them fight alone. ;)
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Except now the war is shaping up to be everyone vs the two originating realms, yeah sure no gang bang there at all, for the first war since the empire was formed.
I'm not there so my newsfeed on this is a bit filtered, but at the beginning it was going to be a two realms ganging up on one, right? Clearly those realms didn't care about fair odds. If everyone has intervened against them then it's hardly Arcaea's fault that war is continent wide (again, couldn't say if it is). I'm not sure what kind of thinking you were doing if you thought having Arcaea dominate the island meant that they would just exist and not do anything. That wasn't in any proposition I heard, certainly.
Those with the greatest power have the greatest responsibility in regards to fun and balance. That has always been the case, and is one of the key responsibilities to those whom hold council positions. Realms that have greater power on an island, no matter how they came by it by extension end up with even greater responsibility then the same positions in other realms, simply because in general they have more opportunity to do so.
Sure. But that's not the same thing as having Arcaea take the fall because people are unhappy with the consequences of their own actions. People will do what they want, but nobody is owed anything here.
Even OW wants Arcaea to back out and let them fight alone. ;)
That wouldn't surprise me. Against Sorraine, at least, they have a pretty solid record of being unreasonably successful for their size.
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Like I said, Sartanians suck at warfare.
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Sure. But that's not the same thing as having Arcaea take the fall because people are unhappy with the consequences of their own actions. People will do what they want, but nobody is owed anything here.
Indeed, Arcaea didn't get where they are now alone. They might have been alone at some point, but not since a while.
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Indeed, Arcaea didn't get where they are now alone. They might have been alone at some point, but not since a while.
I believe the last time Arcaea was truly alone was right before they signed a mercenary agreement with Arcachon under Trinity. Since then Arcaea's always had if not allies then friends in high places. You really can't achieve anything in this game alone, as you at least need enough people who don't hate you enough to make sure they don't all ally to take you down.
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I think the point is that Coralynth sought, and received, permission to attack Ohnar West. When Arcaea started thinking about getting involved it offered to withdraw from the war if Ohnar West removed their army from Nbasah. On the face of it, that's what everyone wanted - the war to go back to Sorraine versus OW with no one else involved.
The fact that Arcaea invaded anyway shows that this really wasn't about fears of a gangbang. And that's fine - but let's please not pretend that this is about what it's being claimed IC when everyone knows it's not.
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Hey, I never pretended that was what I (or Baranion) was about.
He's been totally upfront about his disapproval of Coralynth's actions.
Slightly less upfront about his disapproval for the Church of Sartan, but it's not like you don't know my thoughts on that, Antonine ;D
Furthermore, I believe Velax was pretty clear that he didn't like the way Coralynth was acting, either, and wanted to punish them for their appallingly stupid dishonourable tactics.
It's not always about gangbangs.
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Furthermore, I believe Velax was pretty clear that he didn't like the way Coralynth was acting, either, and wanted to punish them for their appallingly stupid dishonourable tactics.
And he shows his displeasure with Coralynth by ... attacking Sorraine, and telling them he's probably going to loot them. That will certainly send a strong message of disapproval to Coralynth.
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It's about preventing Ohnar's destruction as much as it is about disapproval of Coralynth's actions. That was stated, repeatedly.
Coralynth will feel Velax's disapproval soon enough.
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And he shows his displeasure with Coralynth by ... attacking Sorraine, and telling them he's probably going to loot them. That will certainly send a strong message of disapproval to Coralynth.
Yes I don't understand at all why Arcaea declared against Sorraine.
I think the point is that Coralynth sought, and received, permission to attack Ohnar West. When Arcaea started thinking about getting involved it offered to withdraw from the war if Ohnar West removed their army from Nbasah. On the face of it, that's what everyone wanted - the war to go back to Sorraine versus OW with no one else involved.
The fact that Arcaea invaded anyway shows that this really wasn't about fears of a gangbang. And that's fine - but let's please not pretend that this is about what it's being claimed IC when everyone knows it's not.
All news to me in the south. Beyond the war decelerations I have received no information of previous dealings with Arcaea in this matter. I was also not made aware that Coralynth had decided to pull out of the war. The main complainants and reasons floating around the south to get involved are that Coralynth is devoid of honour with their attempted sneak attack, and Sartan is bad and must be contained.
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It's about preventing Ohnar's destruction as much as it is about disapproval of Coralynth's actions. That was stated, repeatedly.
Coralynth will feel Velax's disapproval soon enough.
Some realms need to die. I don't see what's fun in protecting OW's destruction.
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Some realms need to die. I don't see what's fun in protecting OW's destruction.
The last time i saw this much hate against a realm was Red span. What on earth did OW do to warrant being destroyed.
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The last time i saw this much hate against a realm was Red span. What on earth did OW do to warrant being destroyed.
Sheltered the undesirables and traitors of half the continent. Broke treaties and stabbed people in the back. Picked the wrong side in every single war for the past five RL years. Generally were a silent and !@#$ realm to have a character in. Never really did anything to make friends with anyone.
Also, they've been on the verge of collapsing for the past 3 RL years. There's an element of "for god's sake let's just get the inevitable over with".
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Also, they've been on the verge of collapsing for the past 3 RL years. There's an element of "for god's sake let's just get the inevitable over with".
And frankly, if Coralynth hadn't pulled the crap that they did, and just let Sorraine fight OW themselves, there's a good chance you'd already be done with it.
(Leaving aside the earlier comments about Sartanians being particularly bad at war... ;D )
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The last time i saw this much hate against a realm was Red span. What on earth did OW do to warrant being destroyed.
Though others do hate it, I don't really care about it, I joined the FEI far after they did whatever they did.
However, it's such a small and miserable realm. I don't think these kinds of realms are worth saving, I think they just suck up nobles that could help liven up more promising realms.
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So Velax has abdicated as Emperor.
And just two days later, Martin steps down as head of the Church of Sartan in favour of one of his strongest critics following pressure from the church elders.
Where next for FEI?
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Well, it seems my extended absence from these forums has meant I missed out on quite a conversation... It's quite an interesting example of extreme diplomatic myopia.
Let me first repeat Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence." or some such.
It seems many of you have been rulers of your realms for a long time. You are experienced rulers, you've seen how it's been done in the past, and you have expectations for how things will be done in the future.
The Queen of Coralynth, is a new ruler of a relatively isolated realm. Inexperienced rulers make mistakes (and this is not only my first character I ever created for BM, but also my first character to ever become a ruler.)
What you all see as a dishonorable sneak attack gangbang against a defenseless Ohnar West. What actually happened was two realms who'd never fought a war together without Emperor Arcaea orchestrating every battle, totally bungled it up. Sorraine was impatient for the attack and had arrived too early. Coralynth had mostly new nobles and had trouble keeping all the noobs moving together. The attack was supposed to happen, but we were uncoordinated and had to retreat and try again. The Taikun meanwhile wais wailing about the invasion, but we'd already ordered a retreat. It was a cluster!@#$.
Oh, but the cluster!@#$ had only just begun. Those who complained about the so-called gangbang (2 on 1 is not a gangbang, you guys) eagerly all joined their own gangbang against us, led by the Arcaean behemoth, which our entire existence we'd been valiantly defending and supporting.
So to a point, to defend a so-called defenseless realm (that won all its battles against us), Arcaea now has set its sites on us, a realm only slightly larger and less defenseless than OW.
It's amusing that Baranion's view is that Sartanians must be stopped from dominating FEI.... when what is actually going on is that the Sartanians are in a real danger of being exterminated across the continent.
So just to reiterate the point: Everyone keeps saying that Coralynth is dishonorable because we launched a sneak attack. But that's not what happened. I was all set to declare war, when we (Sorraine and Coralynth) bungled our movements. When we finally did declare war, we did so a full day before our forces arrived.
That we've payed for all of this by losing a region, losing our most trusted friend and ally, and even our relations with Sorraine are fraying do to the REAL gangbang against them....
All that said, as a player, this is the wildest and most unpredictable time I've had playing on the FEI since I joined. The stakes are huge, the drama high, the betrayals brutal....
If my other players like Chenier had stuck out the brief lull, they'd really be having a great time right now.
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It's amusing that Baranion's view is that Sartanians must be stopped from dominating FEI.... when what is actually going on is that the Sartanians are in a real danger of being exterminated across the continent.
So far as he's concerned, that is a perfectly acceptable outcome.
Based on what he has heard, the Church of Sartan explicitly advocates converting all nonbelievers by the sword. In other words, as long as it is allowed to exist with that as one of its tenets, it will always try to take over the continent.
On the other hand, Baranion has no interest in taking over the entire continent. So while from a Sartanist perspective, yes, what Baranion wants is obviously unacceptable, he's not being hypocritical in any way.
So just to reiterate the point: Everyone keeps saying that Coralynth is dishonorable because we launched a sneak attack. But that's not what happened. I was all set to declare war, when we (Sorraine and Coralynth) bungled our movements. When we finally did declare war, we did so a full day before our forces arrived.
Except that you (assuming you're Eva—sorry, I don't always know which forum names match which families :-\ ) flat-out lied to the entire continent about your intentions. Ingall asked Eva when Coralynth's forces were first sighted if they were planning to attack, and Eva said no. I don't recall the exact wording at this point, but it was pretty unequivocal.
All that said, as a player, this is the wildest and most unpredictable time I've had playing on the FEI since I joined. The stakes are huge, the drama high, the betrayals brutal....
If my other players like Chenier had stuck out the brief lull, they'd really be having a great time right now.
This, I agree with wholeheartedly. I did not see all this coming when Cathay finally surrendered.
Oddly enough, I think that the single event that's created the most uncertainty and fun was Velax stepping down. I just wish he'd stayed on the continent to be able to participate in the fun time he sparked.
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Oddly enough, I think that the single event that's created the most uncertainty and fun was Velax stepping down. I just wish he'd stayed on the continent to be able to participate in the fun time he sparked.
Agreed, but I do think if he'd stuck around (unless with a new character or something), he'd have been a big weight holding back the events - even without the title.
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Agreed, but I do think if he'd stuck around (unless with a new character or something), he'd have been a big weight holding back the events - even without the title.
I'd be happy enough if he stuck around with a different character—one who explicitly disavowed a direct familial connection to Velax so there was no succession issue.
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Based on what he has heard, the Church of Sartan explicitly advocates converting all nonbelievers by the sword. In other words, as long as it is allowed to exist with that as one of its tenets, it will always try to take over the continent.
Whoever told your character that was deranged or had an axe to grind. The only realm Sartanists want to "convert" would be the Way of the Dragon of Ohnar West. And as far as my character understands, the only reason why they were considered evil is the the first place was because they were originally the enemy of Arcaea. So you see the irony of attacking the enemy of Arcaea, only to have Arcaea side with them against their former allies....
Except that you (assuming you're Eva—sorry, I don't always know which forum names match which families :-\ ) flat-out lied to the entire continent about your intentions. Ingall asked Eva when Coralynth's forces were first sighted if they were planning to attack, and Eva said no. I don't recall the exact wording at this point, but it was pretty unequivocal.
Except that, in this case the exact wording is pretty important. It didn't help that Velax interpreted he exchange in exactly the same way you did, which happens to be completely inaccurate. The Taikun told everyone on the Ruler channel that Sasrhas was being attacked, but we had already ordered a retreat, due to our bungled coordination. And there was a real question of whether or not we would attack, my marshal specifically advised me not to, in fact.
So I was not lying or being deceptive when I said that no attack had taken place. Clearly though, responding to the Taikun at all was a mistake, because it became the thing everyone could point to and say, "Coralynth is horrible!" But when Emperor Velax calls you a liar on the ruler channel, it doesn't really matter whether you actually are. It was also clear that at least partly he was doing this for OOC reasons in order to shake things up a bit.
What the Emperor did not expect was that we would take his betrayal so personally. We went from being his most ardent friends and supporters to... "!@#$ the Emperor" (to borrow a phrase from Sandor Clegane).
And my character told the Emperor straight up, if he kept going down this path it would spell the Doom of Arcaea... I guess we'll have to wait and see whether Eva was a prophet or that it was just wishful thinking. But Arcaea has had a LOT of issues ever since.
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Whoever told your character that was deranged or had an axe to grind. The only realm Sartanists want to "convert" would be the Way of the Dragon of Ohnar West.
That's as may be, but it's what he understands. And no behaviour he's seen so far from Sartanism has suggested anything else.
Except that, in this case the exact wording is pretty important. It didn't help that Velax interpreted he exchange in exactly the same way you did, which happens to be completely inaccurate. The Taikun told everyone on the Ruler channel that Sasrhas was being attacked, but we had already ordered a retreat, due to our bungled coordination. And there was a real question of whether or not we would attack, my marshal specifically advised me not to, in fact.
So I was not lying or being deceptive when I said that no attack had taken place. Clearly though, responding to the Taikun at all was a mistake, because it became the thing everyone could point to and say, "Coralynth is horrible!" But when Emperor Velax calls you a liar on the ruler channel, it doesn't really matter whether you actually are. It was also clear that at least partly he was doing this for OOC reasons in order to shake things up a bit.
I'm sorry, but that's a lawyer's response. Just because the words you wrote were technically true doesn't mean they weren't intentionally deceptive. It was obvious to everyone on the continent that Coralynth was planning to join the war against Ohnar West, even though it was already apparently outmatched by Sorraine. Your mistake was not in responding to Taikun Ingall, it was in the actions that led up to the question in the first place.
If you wanted to be seen as honourable, you could have tried declaring war before the last possible second. Like, for instance, Baranion did.
A declaration of war isn't just a mechanical thing that lets you attack people you want to attack, you know. It's also a formality that declares your intentions. As one might want to do for a realm that one respects (or should be expected to show respect for publicly, whatever one's private feelings), such as a fellow member of one's Empire.
And my character told the Emperor straight up, if he kept going down this path it would spell the Doom of Arcaea... I guess we'll have to wait and see whether Eva was a prophet or that it was just wishful thinking. But Arcaea has had a LOT of issues ever since.
They have, but I don't think Coralynth can really take much credit. Dawn mishandled both her allies and her Duke pretty abominably, and now, from the sounds of it, the internal strife is pretty much over Sartanism.
Nothing to do with Coralynth.
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Ok im going to stop you right there. I have tried to keep this as ooc as possible but seeing as how multiple rulers are using this forum to openly mislead (and in some cases out right lie) just to promote or justify there IC actions im going to lay down whats actually been happening IC.
They have, but I don't think Coralynth can really take much credit. Dawn mishandled both her allies and her Duke pretty abominably, and now, from the sounds of it, the internal strife is pretty much over Sartanism.
In an effort to prevent the ganging up mentality culture that has infested BM like a plague i tried to limit the number of enemies Sorraine would be fighting at any one time as frankly i didn't believe that the first realm that actually tried war after the political reset should get punished by a four on one gangbang just because they attacked first. Especially as the reasons for the two mentioned realms that joined the war after arcaea kept changing there answers every time i asked why they had joined the war.... (first stating it was outrage against coralynth.... then stating it was in responce to two reams ganging up on a smaller realm.....then stating it was a war against sartan) As such when Cathay and Zonasa joined the war i attempted to settle a treaty between Ohnar west and Sorraine. I then sent a further message ooc to explain my reasons for this. A few days later a treaty was semi finalized amongst the "allied" realms, no complaint was made by Zonasa or Cathay during this process. A final draft was written up and a full day after that it was sent to the ruler of Sorraine. IT WAS ONLY AFTER THEN THAT SUDDENLY YOU HAD ISSUES WITH IT, Baranion then wrote several passive aggressive and generically demeaning letters about how Arcaea had stepped on his sovereignty (stating that his character was ill so im guessing he has missed a few turns so had not seen the drafts).
Im sorry but to put it bluntly if your going to say that i "mishandled my allies" just because you were afk thats on you. If you had lost a region due to missing a few turns you cant just say "can you give me back that region i didn't log in yesterday because i was ill" Could i have waited longer? Probably, but thats largely down to inexperience. Honestly the jist of the draft had been the same for over a week i felt sure everything had been covered. This has been my first time as a ruler of a realm; and as im sure you have gathered i had plenty of inside drama inside the realm to deal with as well as outside, i didn't really give additional timing much thought...
As for my mishandling the situation with Claudio..... he had sabotaged the main army during a time of war, caused vast amounts of strife even before the current crisis including but not limited to threatening to punish players for not moving out of his duchy when they didn't log on, citing promises that know one in the council new anything about and when dialogue and communication was attempted left ultimatums saying he was going to Secede anyway regardless of what anyone thought going as far as to bring a foreign powers military to hold his hand while doing so (not to mention this was after he ran a failed election campaign stating that he had no intention of seceding).
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Ok im going to stop you right there. I have tried to keep this as ooc as possible but seeing as how multiple rulers are using this forum to openly mislead (and in some cases out right lie) just to promote or justify there IC actions im going to lay down whats actually been happening IC.
Please never call someone a liar unless you have a strong reason to believe that they are telling deliberate falsehoods.
As such when Cathay and Zonasa joined the war i attempted to settle a treaty between Ohnar west and Sorraine. I then sent a further message ooc to explain my reasons for this. A few days later a treaty was semi finalized amongst the "allied" realms, no complaint was made by Zonasa or Cathay during this process. A final draft was written up and a full day after that it was sent to the ruler of Sorraine. IT WAS ONLY AFTER THEN THAT SUDDENLY YOU HAD ISSUES WITH IT, Baranion then wrote several passive aggressive and generically demeaning letters about how Arcaea had stepped on his sovereignty (stating that his character was ill so im guessing he has missed a few turns so had not seen the drafts).
You sent out a draft on a weekend, which any BattleMaster player of longer than 3 months should know are times of lower activity, which would bind two realms over which you had only the loosest jurisdiction to a course of action that was not necessarily in their best interest. Then you decided that silence meant approval, and waited less than 3 full days (IIRC) before declaring that it was a done deal.
There are several problems here, but from where I sit, it looks like the biggest one is that you assumed that because Velax was Emperor, and Dawn is his successor, Dawn gets to dictate what other realms of the Empire do unilaterally.
Velax never operated that way, so this felt like a serious slap in the face.
Furthermore, when dealing with just about anyone, you should really make sure that you've got positive agreement (rather than just a lack of objection) before doing something as serious as saying that another realm isn't allowed to fight a war anymore. (Especially on a continent where there are very limited possibilities for war, which, at the time, the FEI most definitely was.)
Probably, but thats largely down to inexperience.
And I'm perfectly willing to make some allowances for inexperience. (Baranion somewhat less so.) But you say this as if it doesn't even matter that you might possibly have done something not-quite-perfectly, and then continue to basically insult me, as if the whole situation was something I schemed up to upset you.
As for my mishandling the situation with Claudio..... he had sabotaged the main army during a time of war, caused vast amounts of strife even before the current crisis including but not limited to threatening to punish players for not moving out of his duchy when they didn't log on, citing promises that know one in the council new anything about and when dialogue and communication was attempted left ultimatums saying he was going to Secede anyway regardless of what anyone thought going as far as to bring a foreign powers military to hold his hand while doing so (not to mention this was after he ran a failed election campaign stating that he had no intention of seceding).
I don't pretend to know everything that went on within Arcaea leading up to the secession, but it's painfully clear that you mishandled him. I was in communication with Claudio intermittently throughout, and there wasn't the slightest hint of him being dissatisfied with Arcaea until you tried to deny his right to secede at the time of his choosing. His duchy would still be part of Arcaea now if you had handled that situation properly.
And, as you say, it's down to inexperience. And frankly, I think anyone expecting a player who's never had a ruler character before to take rulership in Arcaea of all places, in the middle of the war that was already heating up, and get everything to come out perfect, is delusional. Given that you've never had a ruler before, I'd say you're probably doing pretty well.
But that doesn't change the situation IC, or make the criticisms I've made of how Dawn handled things any less valid. It just explains why they happened.
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I don't pretend to know everything that went on within Arcaea leading up to the secession, but it's painfully clear that you mishandled him. I was in communication with Claudio intermittently throughout, and there wasn't the slightest hint of him being dissatisfied with Arcaea until you tried to deny his right to secede at the time of his choosing. His duchy would still be part of Arcaea now if you had handled that situation properly.
And, as you say, it's down to inexperience. And frankly, I think anyone expecting a player who's never had a ruler character before to take rulership in Arcaea of all places, in the middle of the war that was already heating up, and get everything to come out perfect, is delusional. Given that you've never had a ruler before, I'd say you're probably doing pretty well.
But that doesn't change the situation IC, or make the criticisms I've made of how Dawn handled things any less valid. It just explains why they happened.
I am going to come out and say that I am very, very glad that Arcaea has split up following IC events that have arisen organically from IC actions, rather than in an organized OOC fashion.
After the countless forum posts advocating for splitting Arcaea for OOC reasons, I think it's in very bad taste to come back and say "it's your fault, if you had played better it wouldn't have happened".
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The more pieces that are carved out of Arcaea, the better. And then Sorraine, and Cathay, too.
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Ok im going to stop you right there. I have tried to keep this as ooc as possible but seeing as how multiple rulers are using this forum to openly mislead (and in some cases out right lie) just to promote or justify there IC actions im going to lay down whats actually been happening IC.
They have, but I don't think Coralynth can really take much credit. Dawn mishandled both her allies and her Duke pretty abominably, and now, from the sounds of it, the internal strife is pretty much over Sartanism.
In an effort to prevent the ganging up mentality culture that has infested BM like a plague i tried to limit the number of enemies Sorraine would be fighting at any one time as frankly i didn't believe that the first realm that actually tried war after the political reset should get punished by a four on one gangbang just because they attacked first. Especially as the reasons for the two mentioned realms that joined the war after arcaea kept changing there answers every time i asked why they had joined the war.... (first stating it was outrage against coralynth.... then stating it was in responce to two reams ganging up on a smaller realm.....then stating it was a war against sartan) As such when Cathay and Zonasa joined the war i attempted to settle a treaty between Ohnar west and Sorraine. I then sent a further message ooc to explain my reasons for this. A few days later a treaty was semi finalized amongst the "allied" realms, no complaint was made by Zonasa or Cathay during this process. A final draft was written up and a full day after that it was sent to the ruler of Sorraine. IT WAS ONLY AFTER THEN THAT SUDDENLY YOU HAD ISSUES WITH IT, Baranion then wrote several passive aggressive and generically demeaning letters about how Arcaea had stepped on his sovereignty (stating that his character was ill so im guessing he has missed a few turns so had not seen the drafts).
Im sorry but to put it bluntly if your going to say that i "mishandled my allies" just because you were afk thats on you. If you had lost a region due to missing a few turns you cant just say "can you give me back that region i didn't log in yesterday because i was ill" Could i have waited longer? Probably, but thats largely down to inexperience. Honestly the jist of the draft had been the same for over a week i felt sure everything had been covered. This has been my first time as a ruler of a realm; and as im sure you have gathered i had plenty of inside drama inside the realm to deal with as well as outside, i didn't really give additional timing much thought...
As for my mishandling the situation with Claudio..... he had sabotaged the main army during a time of war, caused vast amounts of strife even before the current crisis including but not limited to threatening to punish players for not moving out of his duchy when they didn't log on, citing promises that know one in the council new anything about and when dialogue and communication was attempted left ultimatums saying he was going to Secede anyway regardless of what anyone thought going as far as to bring a foreign powers military to hold his hand while doing so (not to mention this was after he ran a failed election campaign stating that he had no intention of seceding).
What character do you play? Much of what you just said about Claudio is untrue. I'll take time later to refute it point by point.
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Fwiw, the misunderstandings that have developed between Sorraine and Coralynth have been kind of funny. Both sides (unofficially) blame the other for the mess that marked the start of the war. Ooc it's ridiculously easy to see the way this whole thing got blown out of proportion. Ic, we're all just hanging on, and hoping we don't all get wiped out.
That impression of Sartanism is really kind of funny, too. Internally, Sartanism is one of the most boring religions ever. Nothing happens. No big plots or plans. It's a giant bogeyman fir the FEI. More Sartanism shrines and temples are burned than any other religion, i bet. CoH has been burning down Sartan temples for years. We just expect it, and dont whine when it happens.
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Kainaq plays the Konran family, i believe. Arcaeas new ruler.
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I am going to come out and say that I am very, very glad that Arcaea has split up following IC events that have arisen organically from IC actions, rather than in an organized OOC fashion.
After the countless forum posts advocating for splitting Arcaea for OOC reasons, I think it's in very bad taste to come back and say "it's your fault, if you had played better it wouldn't have happened".
What? No, I think this is fantastic, too!
My criticisms of Dawn are primarily for what she did to Cathay and Zonasa, none of which has anything directly to do with the state of Arcaea today. I'm quite happy, IC and OOC, with Claudio's secession. I only know through hearsay what's happening inside Arcaea, but it seems to me that it's also likely to result in a more interesting FEI than otherwise.
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My criticisms of Dawn are primarily for what she did to Cathay and Zonasa, none of which has anything directly to do with the state of Arcaea today. I'm quite happy, IC and OOC, with Claudio's secession. I only know through hearsay what's happening inside Arcaea, but it seems to me that it's also likely to result in a more interesting FEI than otherwise.
Dawn did nothing to intentionally harm Cathay or Zonasa (all i wanted to do was prevent the annihilation of Sorraine...), you make it sound like she ordered terms (she didn't, i rechecked the letters) you didn't see them due to being offline for three days, then cited issues with it
There are several problems here, but from where I sit, it looks like the biggest one is that you assumed that because Velax was Emperor, and Dawn is his successor, Dawn gets to dictate what other realms of the Empire do unilaterally.
Velax never operated that way, so this felt like a serious slap in the face.
Problem with this statement is that Dawn never dictated anything. Other rulers asked if Dawn would give greater clarity on what Arcaea would support. When initial drafts were made, i received letters from both Cathay and OW and they seemed satisfied, Zonasa remained silent.... and continued to remain silent when the final draft was proposed and after a few days presented. It genuinely pisses me off that you try to make out that i was giving orders when that just wasn't the case.
You sent out a draft on a weekend, which any BattleMaster player of longer than 3 months should know are times of lower activity
Its no secret that a ruler/generals tend to have to be alot more active, (as such i made an assumption that you had no opinion either way on it).... they have to be otherwise they would be ill suited for the job. Hell i believe we even had a ruler step down recently for this exact reason.... Bm is a light weight game, i have spent more time writing on the forum today then i have actually playing BM.
Please never call someone a liar unless you have a strong reason to believe that they are telling deliberate falsehoods.
Dawn mishandled both her allies and her Duke pretty abominably This is a highly weighted opinion at best
Arcaea seems to be doing some fence sitting right now. They aren't helping their ally OW. They won't sign peace with the Grand Duchy which is keeping the Grand Duchy and Zonasa out of the war. Seems they are really screwing things up. One would hope they would !@#$ or get off the pot...
This was taken from the "is this the next big war thread", this was an out right lie.
I don't pretend to know everything that went on within Arcaea leading up to the secession, but it's painfully clear that you mishandled him. I was in communication with Claudio intermittently throughout, and there wasn't the slightest hint of him being dissatisfied with Arcaea until you tried to deny his right to secede at the time of his choosing.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHHA ........ During Claudios election campaign he was accused of being a "succession happy duke" by another noble. In response he promised that he had no plans to secede. The day after he lost the election i received a letter saying that he plans to secede and that plans were well under way. I wonder if he chose to hide this little tidbit of information from Baranion :P
His duchy would still be part of Arcaea now if you had handled that situation properly.
His duchy being part of Arcaea was no longer relevant..... he had effectively taken all the nobles in his duchy out of the military chain of command and had the doing their own thing. They were contributing nothing to Arcaea. As a result Arcaea didn't actually lose anything when they left.
But you say this as if it doesn't even matter that you might possibly have done something not-quite-perfectly, and then continue to basically insult me, as if the whole situation was something I schemed up to upset you.
If players are throwing less then subtle insults in my direction both IC and OOC... shockingly i tend to throw a few back
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Just going to say two things. I agree with Kainaq on this one. And Anaris, just because you think that anyone who has played for three months should know that the weekends are less active doesn't make that a true statement. It's a logical fallacy, one that is easily refuted by looking at just about any other game and finding that the norm in those games is more activity on the weekend. So to expect players that play other games to then come into Battlemaster and expect the weekends to be less active is not really something you should do. I didn't learn that the weekends were less active until YEARS into playing. I doubt I'm the only one.
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I'm not going to catch up on the rest of the thread, but I'm going to join in and agree that the weekend defense is kinda weak, imo. BM doesn't stop on the weekends, never has. Why should it? Sure, sure, people tend to be less active, but it doesn't stop.
And if I recall, treaties have to be signed anyway... that causes some built-in time delay, doesn't it?
Also, from a brief look-over, it's crazy the amount of misinformation out about Claudio's secession.
I don't pretend to know everything that went on within Arcaea leading up to the secession, but it's painfully clear that you mishandled him. I was in communication with Claudio intermittently throughout, and there wasn't the slightest hint of him being dissatisfied with Arcaea until you tried to deny his right to secede at the time of his choosing.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHHA ........ During Claudios election campaign he was accused of being a "succession happy duke" by another noble. In response he promised that he had no plans to secede. The day after he lost the election i received a letter saying that he plans to secede and that plans were well under way. I wonder if he chose to hide this little tidbit of information from Baranion :P
I will attest to this. Though I will also say that intentional or not (and consequently, no offense dustole), Claudio's messages are often confusing for me. I still think that he may have really just meant to mention his plans for the far off future, but his first messages definitely came off as "Hey guys, I'm going to secede tomorrow. Cool?" Even if it was more laying out his future plans, the timing was abysmal - very few (vocal) people in Arcaea saw it as anything other than him being a sore loser.
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I'm staying out of the rest of this mess, but from an OOC perspective I think Dawn reacted more harshly than was strictly wise, but in a perfectly understandable way to Claudio's letters. Claudio's actions are somewhat understandable given the RL years going into his plan, but were pretty freaking hostile in tone and I could easily argue they were outright treasonous, especially since he went from "I want to secede" to "OMG They won't let me secede!" so quickly, when most of the realm was unaware of the plans.
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I didn't say in the election that I wouldn't secede. I said later had I been elected I would have moved the capitol much further south and the north would have had to split off. I should have been more clear.
In my initial letter to dawn about the new realm was a report laying. Out my timeline and explaining what I had left to do before I was ready. It was quite clear it was a long way off. 10 recruitment centers built, more knights etc. Her response was to make it a public discussion and try to discredit Claudio.
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I didn't say in the election that I wouldn't secede. I said later had I been elected I would have moved the capitol much further south and the north would have had to split off. I should have been more clear.
Actually you did... People were quick to pull that letter back from the election when the discussion went public. You did correct yourself later, but by then the election was over, making it look like you were trying to trust your own words after the loss. It's really all bad timing and misunderstandings... But hey, it made FEI move a little.
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Dawn made it a public discussion because quite frankly when the current ruler, general, judge and banker have not heard a thing about any plans for succession at all yet an entire duchy apparently does then its clearly gone far beyond a private matter.
As for discrediting...... you did a fine job of that yourself.
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It worked out moderately well for Claudio in the end. I would have liked more time to prepare but we dealt with it.
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I think it worked out well for all parties involved really.... Arcaea was unmanageably big
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I'm sorry, but that's a lawyer's response. Just because the words you wrote were technically true doesn't mean they weren't intentionally deceptive. It was obvious to everyone on the continent that Coralynth was planning to join the war against Ohnar West, even though it was already apparently outmatched by Sorraine.
I'm sorry you feel that a factual statement is a "lawyer's response". If it was obvious to everyone what Coralynth was going to do, then why would we bother with deception?
That you believe Ohnar West was "outmatched" is part of the problem, they weren't. We all have so few nobles, that none of us, except Arcaea has the strength to really assault any of our opponents cities. Furthermore it didn't stop you from joining in the war against Sorraine and Coralynth, even though we're already "outmatched" by Ohnar West and Arcaea. If what we did is wrong, then what you're doing is wrong also.
If you wanted to be seen as honourable, you could have tried declaring war before the last possible second. Like, for instance, Baranion did.
A declaration of war isn't just a mechanical thing that lets you attack people you want to attack, you know. It's also a formality that declares your intentions.
As I said, we declared a full day (two turns) before our attack took place. That you believe otherwise is also part of the problem. Furthermore, how your realm declares war is up to you. My queen had never declared war on her own before, and didn't know the "league of rulers" in the Far East had expectations about what a ruler should or shouldn't do before declaring war. Using her inexperience as a prelude to destroy her realm seems a bit much... and hypocritical.
They have, but I don't think Coralynth can really take much credit. Dawn mishandled both her allies and her Duke pretty abominably, and now, from the sounds of it, the internal strife is pretty much over Sartanism.
Nothing to do with Coralynth.
There's not really much to gain from disabusing you of this notion, so I will let your assumptions be.
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Furthermore it didn't stop you from joining in the war against Sorraine and Coralynth, even though we're already "outmatched" by Ohnar West and Arcaea. If what we did is wrong, then what you're doing is wrong also.
Check your chronology. Zonasa was the first realm to join in the war on Ohnar West's side.
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As I said, we declared a full day (two turns) before our attack took place. That you believe otherwise is also part of the problem. Furthermore, how your realm declares war is up to you. My queen had never declared war on her own before, and didn't know the "league of rulers" in the Far East had expectations about what a ruler should or shouldn't do before declaring war. Using her inexperience as a prelude to destroy her realm seems a bit much... and hypocritical.
General rule of thumb is to either declare war from your territory, or make sure you're going to gain an unbeatable advantage from doing otherwise (speaking from some painful personal experience).
And I don't think anyone is terribly interested in destroying Coralynth, as anyone close enough to be able to do so knows how incredibly difficult doing so would be, and anyone too far to know is too far to try.
Admittedly the difference in noble count makes Coralynth weaker than Arcachon was, but destroying Arcachon took several months, no less than three highly ranked traitors, one of whom had been sabotaging Arcachon for literally years, two civil wars in Arcahon, took Arcaea's entire concentration and gold reserves, burned through a huge amount of diplomatic capital and allies (including ceding Arempos for the alliance with Ohnar West), and Arcaea lost a quarter of its population from starvation another quarter due to region revolts.
Last I heard (admittedly I've been out of the loop) was that an apology and promise not to finish killing OW would get most of the realms off your back, even if their Rulers won't necessarily say so outright.
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The rulers are being very quiet about Coralynth. They are specifically included from negotiations.
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By which i mean that i have asked several times, and my questions are completely ignored. The ic assumption is that OW/Arcaea intend on killing them.
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By which i mean that i have asked several times, and my questions are completely ignored. The ic assumption is that OW/Arcaea intend on killing them.
As Bedwyr said, taking the island is a difficult proposition. Even when the Arcaean war machine as at one of its strongest points we struggle to take and hold land on the island. Most the rest of the time we traded regions on the mainland with them.