BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: m2rt on June 06, 2011, 07:50:41 PM
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Hey,
I have seen that its a growing trend in Republics and such to declare that lords gold is the realms gold and that lords are only there on the whim of the public. Is battlemaster really evolving? Will BM soon be date in the 1800s?
Just had to mention, that I have already seen those arguments in 2 realms I am playing. Luckily my family is old fashioned and will bring those realms down who think such ludacris ideas. But still, I can not wait to see where this leads too... Lets talk again in 10 years.
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Republics and democracies in BM have always had silly ideas like that :)
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They can try to tax the Lords ;-) I'm sure they'll just find a realm who isn't so silly.
I've had somewhere between 1000-5000 gold on my Duke at any given time or stored safely in various strongboxes nobody knows about if you catch my meaning ;-)
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They can try to tax the Lords ;-) I'm sure they'll just find a realm who isn't so silly.
I've had somewhere between 1000-5000 gold on my Duke at any given time or stored safely in various strongboxes nobody knows about if you catch my meaning ;-)
Yeah, same here with my Duke. Even over that with tournament gold. Some regions sadly cant join other realms. Lets hope they will get a spine...
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Republics and democracies in BM have always had silly ideas like that :)
And that is why I should stick to Kingdoms and Tyrannies...
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That's not a new idea. When I joined Battlemaster, most of the realms I played in flat our decreed that all gold belonged to the realm, and the only difference was what degree of freedom you had in spending it to further realm goals. Of course, that was under the old tax system when it was easier for Bankers to force that.
I'd say the lords should then band together and tell the rest of the realm to !@#$ off. After all, they have the gold.
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That's not a new idea. When I joined Battlemaster, most of the realms I played in flat our decreed that all gold belonged to the realm, and the only difference was what degree of freedom you had in spending it to further realm goals. Of course, that was under the old tax system when it was easier for Bankers to force that.
I'd say the lords should then band together and tell the rest of the realm to !@#$ off. After all, they have the gold.
Its similar to the argument that a regions food belongs to the realm and should be shipped around for free. Either the Lords are powerful and organised enough to get together and force the issue, or they aren't. Can't blame the powers to be for taking advantage of weakness.
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In Riombara they bluntly told me that this realm was "different", and now we have communist-ish system running that taxes all lords and dukes 25% (totally ignore the game saying that such taxing is considered punishment).
My new goal: destroying Riombara, one way or another. I hate these anti-medieval ideas in a medieval setting. It's not because a realm is a republic or a democracy, that it is a modern day version of that.
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(totally ignore the game saying that such taxing is considered punishment).
Don't assume too much. It could be willful infringement.
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...i didn't see many people advocating food trade or taxing cities heavier XD
i think the issue in riombara is 2 folds.
more nobles in cities combined than rural/town. tax/food benefits cities, so all the more reason not to vote for changes that'll hit the cities.
no one tries to starve cities either though they can't really, as there's no 1 duke to rally around to secede for example.. it's unlikely to change
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In Riombara they bluntly told me that this realm was "different", and now we have communist-ish system running that taxes all lords and dukes 25% (totally ignore the game saying that such taxing is considered punishment).
My new goal: destroying Riombara, one way or another. I hate these anti-medieval ideas in a medieval setting. It's not because a realm is a republic or a democracy, that it is a modern day version of that.
Stupid Fleugs, don't say it out loud. People can NOT ignore OOC when deciding IC decisions. Its a fact. My past proves that.
But in general I agree.
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...i didn't see many people advocating food trade or taxing cities heavier XD
i think the issue in riombara is 2 folds.
more nobles in cities combined than rural/town. tax/food benefits cities, so all the more reason not to vote for changes that'll hit the cities.
no one tries to starve cities either though they can't really, as there's no 1 duke to rally around to secede for example.. it's unlikely to change
Blah blah blah, who cares about where are the knights. Things must regulate themselves by themselves.
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Stupid Fleugs, don't say it out loud. People can NOT ignore OOC when deciding IC decisions. Its a fact. My past proves that.
But in general I agree.
Isn't this why OOC bans were implemented? *itchy finger* ;)
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Isn't this why OOC bans were implemented? *itchy finger* ;)
Nah, too hard to prove. Really impossible.
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In Riombara they bluntly told me that this realm was "different", and now we have communist-ish system running that taxes all lords and dukes 25% (totally ignore the game saying that such taxing is considered punishment).
My new goal: destroying Riombara, one way or another. I hate these anti-medieval ideas in a medieval setting. It's not because a realm is a republic or a democracy, that it is a modern day version of that.
Oh, fancy seeing you here... do you come here often?
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...i didn't see many people advocating food trade or taxing cities heavier XD
i think the issue in riombara is 2 folds.
more nobles in cities combined than rural/town. tax/food benefits cities, so all the more reason not to vote for changes that'll hit the cities.
no one tries to starve cities either though they can't really, as there's no 1 duke to rally around to secede for example.. it's unlikely to change
Geography plays a huge role. Riombara isn't close to any food buyers, so lords don't have anything else to do with their food either. A completely different example would be the lords of western Dwilight: if their own dukes won't pay them for their food, then they know (or should know) that D'Hara *will*, and at a considerable price. D'Hara is therefore making a pressure on all western food markets, driving food prices up regardless of where it is sent. I can't say to what extent this is actually going on right now, though, but I suspect it will only increase. After all, D'Hara mostly deals with regions directly, and not realms, as rurals often feel a lack of love from higher up.
In D'Hara, rurals and townslands are also paid the maximum allowed amount for their food. While this does indeed redistribute food to where the majority of nobles now currently resides, the main objective was to incite profit-seeking lords to maximize their food outputs for their own sakes, therefore helping the cities out.
For this, though, D'Hara is unique, and I'm becoming more and more interested by how food is actively transforming the realm and activities around it.
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Geography plays a huge role. Riombara isn't close to any food buyers, so lords don't have anything else to do with their food either. A completely different example would be the lords of western Dwilight: if their own dukes won't pay them for their food, then they know (or should know) that D'Hara *will*, and at a considerable price. D'Hara is therefore making a pressure on all western food markets, driving food prices up regardless of where it is sent. I can't say to what extent this is actually going on right now, though, but I suspect it will only increase. After all, D'Hara mostly deals with regions directly, and not realms, as rurals often feel a lack of love from higher up.
In D'Hara, rurals and townslands are also paid the maximum allowed amount for their food. While this does indeed redistribute food to where the majority of nobles now currently resides, the main objective was to incite profit-seeking lords to maximize their food outputs for their own sakes, therefore helping the cities out.
For this, though, D'Hara is unique, and I'm becoming more and more interested by how food is actively transforming the realm and activities around it.
Unique in what way? I've played in several realms were region lords could expect payment for their food within the realm, or sell it outside the realm at a profit.
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Unique in what way? I've played in several realms were region lords could expect payment for their food within the realm, or sell it outside the realm at a profit.
That the food supply is probably capped at like 10%, that so many big cities are bundled together without any major food producers. In most places, food supply is close to 100% (when discarding tiny realms that have extreme ratios), meaning a relatively small demand for food and keeping food prices down. In Dwilight, D'Hara has a demand that is unequaled anywhere else in the game, making a considerable pressure on food stocks and driving prices up.
I even predict it to eventually become problematic that the food prices are capped. Our suppliers are asking, on average, increasing prices. If we can't set a buy price higher than their sell price, then our traders can't make a profit. If they can't make a profit, then why would they bother? The 50 gold per unit limit is going to seriously hurt, if it remains too long.
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That the food supply is probably capped at like 10%, that so many big cities are bundled together without any major food producers. In most places, food supply is close to 100% (when discarding tiny realms that have extreme ratios), meaning a relatively small demand for food and keeping food prices down. In Dwilight, D'Hara has a demand that is unequaled anywhere else in the game, making a considerable pressure on food stocks and driving prices up.
I even predict it to eventually become problematic that the food prices are capped. Our suppliers are asking, on average, increasing prices. If we can't set a buy price higher than their sell price, then our traders can't make a profit. If they can't make a profit, then why would they bother? The 50 gold per unit limit is going to seriously hurt, if it remains too long.
How many other buyers do they have though? The real issue in things like this is which party will break down first, the buyers that need that food, or the suppliers that want the gold. Of course you could go with a plan C and annex the damn food suppliers, but of course that is not always possible.
Far as I can tell, FEI has several realms that operate with food deficits or run so close to the supply that any bad weather results in starvation. Probably not on the level of D'Hara but I know Arcaea has been trying to buy food from pretty much any realm they can.
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How many other buyers do they have though? The real issue in things like this is which party will break down first, the buyers that need that food, or the suppliers that want the gold. Of course you could go with a plan C and annex the damn food suppliers, but of course that is not always possible.
Far as I can tell, FEI has several realms that operate with food deficits or run so close to the supply that any bad weather results in starvation. Probably not on the level of D'Hara but I know Arcaea has been trying to buy food from pretty much any realm they can.
An exceptionally good harvest in those realms means a minor surplus, though, while in D'Hara is still means major deficits. That's the difference.
And considering that D'Hara's current policy is *buy everything*, it sure is a seller's market, though mind you it's my job to control this situation. Hence why D'Hara stepped in the south's war, after all, to protect the eventual exporter that Aurvandil will become and prevent Madina from increasing it's own internal demand for food by the annexation of Candiels. I wouldn't bother mediating the conflict if it wasn't for that, as the claims both realms brought forth before our involvement didn't move me much (didn't read the ones since yet).
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Geography plays a huge role. Riombara isn't close to any food buyers, so lords don't have anything else to do with their food either. A completely different example would be the lords of western Dwilight: if their own dukes won't pay them for their food, then they know (or should know) that D'Hara *will*, and at a considerable price. D'Hara is therefore making a pressure on all western food markets, driving food prices up regardless of where it is sent. I can't say to what extent this is actually going on right now, though, but I suspect it will only increase. After all, D'Hara mostly deals with regions directly, and not realms, as rurals often feel a lack of love from higher up.
In D'Hara, rurals and townslands are also paid the maximum allowed amount for their food. While this does indeed redistribute food to where the majority of nobles now currently resides, the main objective was to incite profit-seeking lords to maximize their food outputs for their own sakes, therefore helping the cities out.
For this, though, D'Hara is unique, and I'm becoming more and more interested by how food is actively transforming the realm and activities around it.
Reading your numerous forum posts about D'Hara and its amazing trade I always wondered how much are you really able to gather. Almost every realm on dwilight struggles for food: very few have surplus and since food it's an insanely powerful strategic asset, food market is strictly controlled in several of those realms. I would bet that all lords or traders caught selling food where they are not supposed to get a free ticket for a ban almost in every realm of dwilight. Certainly you can have a few traders on your paybook that run around and steal food or perhaps some lord that sells to you without being noticed, but these would make such tiny quantities as to be completely irrelevant on the large scale. Also, not so many lords are playing the selfish greedy guy, I guess there are quite a few that would gladly sell food cheaply to their own duke without thinking twice.
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Reading your numerous forum posts about D'Hara and its amazing trade I always wondered how much are you really able to gather. Almost every realm on dwilight struggles for food: very few have surplus and since food it's an insanely powerful strategic asset, food market is strictly controlled in several of those realms. I would bet that all lords or traders caught selling food where they are not supposed to is a free ticket for a ban almost in every realm of dwilight. Certainly you can have a few traders on your paybook that run around and steal food or perhaps some lord that sells to you without being noticed, but these would make such tiny quantities as to be completely irrelevant on the large scale. Also, not so many lords are playing the selfish greedy guy, I guess there are quite a few that would gladly sell food cheaply to their own duke without thinking twice.
Food transactions are invisible. Some places have no-trade policies on realm level, while we are finding very interesting deals there at region levels. We don't advertize this to their council, so it passes unnoticed to everyone but the lord.
Paisly is importing more food than it consumes currently, but it did have its stores depleted not that far back. Port Nebel is frequently depleting its warehouses, but it seeks out markets less and it seems the eastern markets to which it has access to are rather closed. Port Raviel isn't faring as good as Paisly, but it's getting there as they are multiplying imports as well. I, for one, always have like 10 active caravan missions. Port Raviel is starting to do the same. Our traders stop by every now and then with very large sums of food they purchased from lands our automatic caravans can't reach.
I don't think many realms would react as strongly as you describe to lords exporting their food, even if there is shortage within. It's hard to justify a communistic approach to food on the SMA island, and after all all realms welcome the additional gold the trade brings, even if it means their surpluses are significantly smaller.
We aren't using the black market as far as I know. Dwilight is big, there are still enough open markets to not have to rely on the black market.
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Food transactions are invisible. Some places have no-trade policies on realm level, while we are finding very interesting deals there at region levels. We don't advertize this to their council, so it passes unnoticed to everyone but the lord.
Paisly is importing more food than it consumes currently, but it did have its stores depleted not that far back. Port Nebel is frequently depleting its warehouses, but it seeks out markets less and it seems the eastern markets to which it has access to are rather closed. Port Raviel isn't faring as good as Paisly, but it's getting there as they are multiplying imports as well. I, for one, always have like 10 active caravan missions. Port Raviel is starting to do the same. Our traders stop by every now and then with very large sums of food they purchased from lands our automatic caravans can't reach.
I don't think many realms would react as strongly as you describe to lords exporting their food, even if there is shortage within. It's hard to justify a communistic approach to food on the SMA island, and after all all realms welcome the additional gold the trade brings, even if it means their surpluses are significantly smaller.
We aren't using the black market as far as I know. Dwilight is big, there are still enough open markets to not have to rely on the black market.
I see. But food transactions are not invisible: bankers are informed when someone buys or sell food, dukes and rulers get food movement report and with a bit of math they can easily find out if a couple hundred bushels vanished. Clearly that holds only if they have some realm wide food policy and if they care. I suspected more realms had but it appears is not so.
As for the communistic approach, it's not about SMA or not, it's just about being reasonable. If Lords starve their own cities, this easily means they will sooner or later have no one defending it from monsters, as certainly one rural can't field by itself much of an army even with good trade deals. Plus usually judges are more tied with dukes than not, so it's really not hard to put lords in line if one wants to. For sure there are enough holes in the net for people to smuggle as much as they want, but I am surprised to discover it's not the exception.
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I see. But food transactions are not invisible: bankers are informed when someone buys or sell food, dukes and rulers get food movement report and with a bit of math they can easily find out if a couple hundred bushels vanished. Clearly that holds only if they have some realm wide food policy and if they care. I suspected more realms had but it appears is not so.
As for the communistic approach, it's not about SMA or not, it's just about being reasonable. If Lords starve their own cities, this easily means they will sooner or later have no one defending it from monsters, as certainly one rural can't field by itself much of an army even with good trade deals. Plus usually judges are more tied with dukes than not, so it's really not hard to put lords in line if one wants to. For sure there are enough holes in the net for people to smuggle as much as they want, but I am surprised to discover it's not the exception.
Bankers only get note of huge transactions, if even that I believe. I don't quite recall, I haven't been a banker in a while. I could ask my banker to clear this up for me.
The communistic approach is not reasonable, that's the whole point. Cities produce a ton of gold, and rurals very little. If their cities are unwilling to share their wealth a bit, then why should the rurals? None of my transactions are in tiny realms with food problems, there is always the gold there for it. And even when the realm is more conservative, it doesn't mean that their cities are starving either. It just means they want to be prudent at their rurals' expense.
Many rural lords would be willing to make a bit less gold by selling internally, I believe, so it's just for the local duke to offer a reasonable deal (and not necessarily as high as ours) and they will deal with them.
Finding food leaks is also not very easy.
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Bankers only get note of huge transactions, if even that I believe. I don't quite recall, I haven't been a banker in a while. I could ask my banker to clear this up for me.
The communistic approach is not reasonable, that's the whole point. Cities produce a ton of gold, and rurals very little. If their cities are unwilling to share their wealth a bit, then why should the rurals? None of my transactions are in tiny realms with food problems, there is always the gold there for it. And even when the realm is more conservative, it doesn't mean that their cities are starving either. It just means they want to be prudent at their rurals' expense.
Many rural lords would be willing to make a bit less gold by selling internally, I believe, so it's just for the local duke to offer a reasonable deal (and not necessarily as high as ours) and they will deal with them.
Finding food leaks is also not very easy.
A transaction of about 200 counts as huge. What I can't remember is if you see these all all for automatic trade offers and the auto caravans.
Also its not exactly a communistic approach. Food from a rural area to the city can be viewed as part of the tithe owing the Duke as part of the oath. It could be argued that an instance on payment for food is capitalistic, neither statement is completely correct.
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If I remember correctly, bankers get informed of large trader-initiated transactions within their own realm. Thus, if a trader goes and buys 1000 bushels in Shoka or someplace, Terran's banker will hear about it...but won't know where that food gets sold. When the 1000 food gets sold in Paisly, D'Hara's banker will hear about it, but I doubt he'll be inclined to tell Terran's...
Also, I think that the 50 gold/100 bushel limit is a thing of the past. Not 100% sure, though; you might try it out.
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Actually now that automatic transfers are handled by caravans, even less people will be informed of food moment, given that rulers and dukes would receive reports only when ox carts are used.
Tim is this intended or just a consequence of the new code? While I think less informations could make food game more interesting, the banker would lose even more of his current little power without seeing food movements.
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Actually now that automatic transfers are handled by caravans, even less people will be informed of food moment, given that rulers and dukes would receive reports only when ox carts are used.
Tim is this intended or just a consequence of the new code? While I think less informations could make food game more interesting, the banker would lose even more of his current little power without seeing food movements.
I've always though the bankers should receive notice of all large caravan purchases, even if a trader is not involved.
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I've always though the bankers should receive notice of all large caravan purchases, even if a trader is not involved.
Yes but anyway consider this situation: harvest day, at sunrise regions gather food, threshold for automatic transfer is surpassed, all regions send caravans that are invisible on the way, the banker has absolutely no clue, if not going and checking how much each regions harvested, of how much food is around. He has no clue either whether the food is going here or there, in the realm or out the realm, and he would be informed only as caravans sell food to the cities, that is likely to happen in waves according to the distance.
So rather than being clearly informed on the food status of his realm he has to half guess half calculate what's the situation, asking lords where did they send the caravans and believing them on the word (since he can't check). In short: a nightmare for planning.
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As D'Hara's trader, I'll let you know that I don't buy food on the black market. Ever. It doesn't make sense from a business perspective to alienate a potential seller. I used to sell it on the black market, in Paisly, because the offer was higher than the official one, but I got burned once or twice, so I'll stick to official channels from now on.
I try to speak with bankers and dukes first. I would much rather buy 1000 bushels from a single source, rather than scour half the continent for food. If my usual contact goes dark (*cough Duke Rai cough*) then I will travel throughout Fissoa looking for food. But I prefer to deal with a single official source.
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D'hara pays for food? Hmmmm.. Nid Tek had quite a surplus during the summer :D
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That's MY food, buddy!
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That's MY food, buddy!
Your in LN not PeL and until we are one, tis mine ;)
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As long as you keep calling me your duke, that's my food ;)
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As long as you keep calling me your duke, that's my food ;)
Shhh thats just between us ;)
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If I remember correctly, bankers get informed of large trader-initiated transactions within their own realm. Thus, if a trader goes and buys 1000 bushels in Shoka or someplace, Terran's banker will hear about it...but won't know where that food gets sold. When the 1000 food gets sold in Paisly, D'Hara's banker will hear about it, but I doubt he'll be inclined to tell Terran's...
Also, I think that the 50 gold/100 bushel limit is a thing of the past. Not 100% sure, though; you might try it out.
So automated caravans are completely under the radar to everyone but the two lords involved?
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So automated caravans are completely under the radar to everyone but the two lords involved?
Automated caravans work just like all other region-to-region caravans, except that they're, well, automated.
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Shhh thats just between us ;)
Not anymore. :o
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Luria is reforming? Arghhh. Back to square one.
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Stupid Fleugs, don't say it out loud. People can NOT ignore OOC when deciding IC decisions. Its a fact. My past proves that.
But in general I agree.
The question is then, which part of what I say here, or on IRC, is really true? I have known some before, that took what I said OOCly ingame, and were shamed to find out that what I said OOC was not my character's plan. More people should do it; eventually everyone will be careful about what they believe or not.
Nevertheless, the mere fact that, as a player, you would use OOC information, makes you a cheater.
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Luria is reforming? Arghhh. Back to square one.
Luria is one Empire anyway.. All this talk of Reforming and Rejoining is hogwash I tell you!
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Automated caravans work just like all other region-to-region caravans, except that they're, well, automated.
But is there any desire to make them more noticeable for someone (banker or dukes or rulers) or will they stay like this forever? It's really a pain for those up in the hierarchy to monitor food movements now.
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But is there any desire to make them more noticeable for someone (banker or dukes or rulers) or will they stay like this forever? It's really a pain for those up in the hierarchy to monitor food movements now.
There hasn't been any intention to. I'm willing to listen to suggestions—which should include both *why* and *how* ;)
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There hasn't been any intention to. I'm willing to listen to suggestions—which should include both *why* and *how* ;)
I see no reason to do so. Since the Bankers were weaken with the removal of their ability to move food around with the push of a button, the need for them to know exactly what the lords are doing has also been reduced to my mind. I don't see bankers as needing to be that involved in the details and micromanagement of food any more.
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But is there any desire to make them more noticeable for someone (banker or dukes or rulers) or will they stay like this forever? It's really a pain for those up in the hierarchy to monitor food movements now.
I'd rather prefer it be made less visible. ;)
D'hara pays for food? Hmmmm.. Nid Tek had quite a surplus during the summer :D
We don't only pay, we pay damn good for it. You should check to see if your caravans can reach us, it'll be completely unnoticed since you are the sender. Just don't send it all one shot, I'm not all too confident on how secure that land route is and you probably have a high chance of it not reaching. Mind you, a chance of profit is better than certainty of none. ;)
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This is discussed in PeL, but Askileon buys food and the route to the city is quite safe (grins).
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Askileon Purlieus can't send caravans to any region held by D'Hara. If any region in the realm could, I'm guessing it would be the capital. Then again while the rates aren't quiet as good, the aren't too bad in PeL. I seem to recall Ramiel was one of those that got their panties in a knot when the idea of the cities actually paying for food was first raised in the realm.
It would appear the Giask from Nova can sell food to D'Hara though.
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A trader could be sent to pass by for collection, if the available stocks are large enough to warrant it...
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A trader could be sent to pass by for collection, if the available stocks are large enough to warrant it...
Well I really hope then that you get permission for your trader to enter the lands of PeL. One would hate for a diplomatic incident to occur.
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Askileon Purlieus can't send caravans to any region held by D'Hara. If any region in the realm could, I'm guessing it would be the capital. Then again while the rates aren't quiet as good, the aren't too bad in PeL. I seem to recall Ramiel was one of those that got their panties in a knot when the idea of the cities actually paying for food was first raised in the realm.
It would appear the Giask from Nova can sell food to D'Hara though.
Port Nebel isn't within range of Askileon? That'd actually be a sea route now that I look at it, though. Cool. Maybe one of your border rurals can send via the land route?
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Port Nebel isn't within range of Askileon? That'd actually be a sea route now that I look at it, though. Cool. Maybe one of your border rurals can send via the land route?
Askileon might be, Askileon Purlieus sure isn't.
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Askileon can't, but it's beside the point as PeL really doesn't have any food to spare and does pay for food. Heck, Koli even asked what the Lords thought was fair for food prices.
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The question is then, which part of what I say here, or on IRC, is really true? I have known some before, that took what I said OOCly ingame, and were shamed to find out that what I said OOC was not my character's plan. More people should do it; eventually everyone will be careful about what they believe or not.
Nevertheless, the mere fact that, as a player, you would use OOC information, makes you a cheater.
Well ofcourse I use my OOC experiences, but not OOC information about BM and other chars. But others do. Actually, I wouldn't even mind if you would destroy the realm we are talking about.
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Automated caravans work just like all other region-to-region caravans, except that they're, well, automated.
including gold paid upfront instead of taken from taxes?
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Giask can't sell anything to the islands, not that Fulco would even if he could. And every lord of his duchy trying to sell food anyway to an other duchy/realm has serious problem with Fulco.
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I'd rather prefer it be made less visible. ;)
It is a perfectly acceptable stance, but I wonder what can then bankers do. Already now the majority of them are bent on gaining gold one way or another rather than helping the realm so much, given that their possibilities to fetch food are limited to the interaction with foreign bankers, which in turn may not have any control on food.
Therefore if the bankers are unable to understand what's going on with food, that is not only in the hands of the Lords practically but also as an informative matter - so that bankers would be spoiled of their organizing-overseeing-controlling task too, I really don't see any reasonable task for them
Also if you may allow me to be the annoying guy here, I don't think the forum should be used as a way to give people informations on trade. One nice thing of dwilight is the sheer number of trading guilds that were created, and I know of many people that moved chars for very long trips only for the sake of finding the right contacts. I understand that what's written here is ooc but we all know how things can go. I believe we should discuss generic matters and not detailed ones about who buys food where and how etc
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It is a perfectly acceptable stance, but I wonder what can then bankers do. Already now the majority of them are bent on gaining gold one way or another rather than helping the realm so much, given that their possibilities to fetch food are limited to the interaction with foreign bankers, which in turn may not have any control on food.
Therefore if the bankers are unable to understand what's going on with food, that is not only in the hands of the Lords practically but also as an informative matter - so that bankers would be spoiled of their organizing-overseeing-controlling task too, I really don't see any reasonable task for them
Also if you may allow me to be the annoying guy here, I don't think the forum should be used as a way to give people informations on trade. One nice thing of dwilight is the sheer number of trading guilds that were created, and I know of many people that moved chars for very long trips only for the sake of finding the right contacts. I understand that what's written here is ooc but we all know how things can go. I believe we should discuss generic matters and not detailed ones about who buys food where and how etc
Bankers are practically useless nowadays. They lost their main powers, and their other important powers are mostly also present in others (rulers have tax options). I wouldn't really so no to having them merged into the ruler position anymore, last time I played a banker I found the experience to be very unsatisfying. Their only use is to be able to see the big picture. Just give dukes the power to get a copy of the big picture for a few coins, and you've got that covered.
I have advertized D'Hara's offers on these guilds various times. But not everyone is part of them, and I don't feel it bad for people to OOC know that there is a place where trading is taken completely differently.
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I seem to recall Ramiel was one of those that got their panties in a knot when the idea of the cities actually paying for food was first raised in the realm.
Your memory is still as bad as ever then. I look forward to the day when you are in your Colony in the Lighthouse.
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Bankers are practically useless nowadays. They lost their main powers, and their other important powers are mostly also present in others (rulers have tax options).
Rulers can see tax settings, and can call an early tax. The interface for changing actual tax settings *appears* to work, but if you try and commit the changes you get a polite message telling you that you're not he banker, so get lost.
I wouldn't really so no to having them merged into the ruler position anymore, last time I played a banker I found the experience to be very unsatisfying. Their only use is to be able to see the big picture. Just give dukes the power to get a copy of the big picture for a few coins, and you've got that covered.
It's just about getting to that point. Their continual loss of abilities is getting more and more pronounced. If they lose the ability to be notified of large trades, then the only ability they will have left is the overall, big-picture map of the food situation, and the ability to steal gold from regional tax offices. Still, a good banker with cooperative lords can do quite a bit to keep a realm fed. Toss in a few uncooperative lords, though, and it's tot he point where a banker is powerless. Not exactly what you'd expect of a council-level position.
I have advertized D'Hara's offers on these guilds various times. But not everyone is part of them, and I don't feel it bad for people to OOC know that there is a place where trading is taken completely differently.
I agree with Peri on this one. If you want to advertise and arrange food sales, and put feelers out for more business, do it in game, and not on the forums. If your network of IG contacts isn't big enough to reach everyone, then expend the effort /IG/ to expand it and reach the people you want. Posting the info on the forum, and expecting people to take that OOC knowledge IG and take IG action on it is a clear, if minor, breach of IC/OOC separation.
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A Lord in one of Summerdale's northernmost regions, who never joined any guild is SUPPOSED not to know that D'Hara is such a trade haven, especially because you purposely not advertise your trade between council members to avoid intrusions. And if he, reading on the forum what we wrote, decides that is the moment to take a walk to Morek and join a couple of trading guild, you served a perfect ooc intrusion in the game without any effort. I don't like it.
About bankers, I would like to hear something from someone that plays a banker on testing, but as far as my tiny duchy is concerned, I have absolutely no clue how much food is available given that the majority of it is on his way somewhere and undetectable. day by day caravans reach the city and deposit food, but it's overall a system solely based on trust and nothing else. This can be nice, but if the banker loses a good network of information, he has nothing in his hands. Much like a General working in a realm without armies. He's useless.
edit: just to expand a bit my argument. I'm not saying bankers should have the chance to micromanage food and discover immediately whether a lord is smuggling food out of the realm or not. However, I believe they should have the informations and powers that would allow them to feed their own realm or gain money from the surplus by themselves in the case the realm agrees on that. As things stand now bankers would have a hard time oranizing the trade according to the surplus/deficit of food of their realm, since a huge portion of said food is travelling and invisible. Just as the General is the one supposed to organize armies and is the one to be blamed first if a realm performs poorly militarily, one expects the same thing for food and bankers. But if they don't have the tools for doing that, they are useless.
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there is a harvest report every harvest.. so they could sort of work things out a bit from that. admittedly the report doesn't tell you how much was eaten since harvest and the day's food consumption.. but bankers know consumption per day.
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I agree with Peri on this one. If you want to advertise and arrange food sales, and put feelers out for more business, do it in game, and not on the forums. If your network of IG contacts isn't big enough to reach everyone, then expend the effort /IG/ to expand it and reach the people you want. Posting the info on the forum, and expecting people to take that OOC knowledge IG and take IG action on it is a clear, if minor, breach of IC/OOC separation.
A Lord in one of Summerdale's northernmost regions, who never joined any guild is SUPPOSED not to know that D'Hara is such a trade haven, especially because you purposely not advertise your trade between council members to avoid intrusions. And if he, reading on the forum what we wrote, decides that is the moment to take a walk to Morek and join a couple of trading guild, you served a perfect ooc intrusion in the game without any effort. I don't like it.
There's two points I'd put forward: the first is that anyone with half a brain that bothers to look at the map can assume that D'Hara runs a pretty huge deficit. Indeed, stat pages on food supply should confirm this, asD'Hara shows as having the world's lowest supply. Don't ask me how the number 114% is calculated, though. One can then reasonnably assume that this realm would take up particular efforts to compensate for this. Anyone interested in trade should naturally be lured to D'Hara, with its low food supply, safe trading routes, and central location.
Secondly, I believe I've already reached everyone in range that matters, or mostly. Summerdale's so far away, we don't have any traders that pass by there and automatic caravans don't make the trip. We were told when I asked that you don't make a significant food surplus, so there's no plans on sending anyone that way for a while either, as the distance reduces the desirability of small transactions.
My intent was mostly just to engage in OOC conversation about how different realms handle food differently.
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Maybe, but the effect, even if unintended, might not be in the best interests of all parties involved. For example, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it if I said how much I can pay for food per 100 bushels.
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I just think the banker's few (and mostly ineffective) remaining powers should be handed down to others and the position scrapped altogether. They just aren't worthwhile as they are anymore.
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Huh, ineffective? If anything, they're effective alright. Maybe not exactly for the realm's best interests, but they do work quite well.
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Huh, ineffective? If anything, they're effective alright. Maybe not exactly for the realm's best interests, but they do work quite well.
You mean embezzlement, right? Are you *seriously* arguing for the existence of a council position just because it can steal gold? That's pretty friggin' lame. Just pass a watered-down version to ambassadors, if you think someone really ought to have such a power, as it alone is not in any way justification for the position to exist imo.
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Ha, you're getting into some pretty strong language lately. Anyway, the Banker position has always been an autopilot after the establishing acts. For a new realm, they are very important because the macroeconomics is visible only to the Banker. That very information is vital. It doesn't need to be physical ability. Sometimes the very knowledge of something is useful beyond measure. Same with scout reports.
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Your memory is still as bad as ever then. I look forward to the day when you are in your Colony in the Lighthouse.
Really, could have sworn you can up with some nonsense about how Dukes already hand out grants to the armies, so why should they also pay for food.
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I thought that as well. I thought I recalled Juan taunting him that only Lords that can't mange their lands and troops required hand outs from the Dukes. A little bit insensitive since Juan had a townsland to call upon. But then since Juan only raised the issue because he was trying to work out who was sending the Ox carts so he could make sure they were paid from the profits he made sending the food on to the city, I guess he didn't have the inclination to write a nice reply.
Also don't get too eager for the colony to go Ramiel, we have been in PeL so long now it is getting harder and harder to want to leave.
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You mean embezzlement, right? Are you *seriously* arguing for the existence of a council position just because it can steal gold? That's pretty friggin' lame. Just pass a watered-down version to ambassadors, if you think someone really ought to have such a power, as it alone is not in any way justification for the position to exist imo.
bugger embezzlement... they take a chunk of the realm cut as it is without having to do much.
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Ha, you're getting into some pretty strong language lately. Anyway, the Banker position has always been an autopilot after the establishing acts. For a new realm, they are very important because the macroeconomics is visible only to the Banker. That very information is vital. It doesn't need to be physical ability. Sometimes the very knowledge of something is useful beyond measure. Same with scout reports.
Whatever is useful of the banker could just as easily be passed on to others. New realms don't need a banker, they just need the macroeconomic information (though honestly, I'd say they really don't need that information at all, as one-duchy realms already have all the info focused into one character, the duke, and the banker's data just becomes a clone of the duke's).
Personally, I'd rather have that position as optional. Some realms might like to focus some administrative/fiscal/economic tasks in one person, but they really don't need to and shouldn't be forced to have a hollow council position if they don't want to.
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Maybe, but the effect, even if unintended, might not be in the best interests of all parties involved. For example, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it if I said how much I can pay for food per 100 bushels.
I'm a member of the Dwilight trade guilds, and I already know that Garret is the one that set the food price for the island at 50, by offering to buy at that price. You single-handedly increased the price Gornak can buy food at, from 25 to 50. D'Hara can probably afford that price--assuming that the supply is there--but I should probably think about starting some rumors about the army that Garrett is trying to feed.
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Oops 8)
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I'm a member of the Dwilight trade guilds, and I already know that Garret is the one that set the food price for the island at 50, by offering to buy at that price. You single-handedly increased the price Gornak can buy food at, from 25 to 50. D'Hara can probably afford that price--assuming that the supply is there--but I should probably think about starting some rumors about the army that Garrett is trying to feed.
Garret Atermesia offered more than that. Indeed, the letter resurfaced just now in realm. However, they lack the traders to import food at that price, and most realms lack the traders to export it as well. Furthermore, the trade route to Nightmarch is perilous, most caravans never make it, and the realms within range don't have a really huge surplus. As such, the Zuma's trade offer wasn't totally discarded, just put on the backburner for now. Paisly's increase in its offer was because markets were becoming more limited and Paisly's own stores were starting to run out for the first time in a while. It was therefore to encourage purchases from a greater number of sources, to make it more affordable to buy from those who don't sell their food for cheap. It had nothing to do with the Zuma.
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For those curious, the Zuma pay 80 gold per 100 bushels, last I heard.
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Ahaha~ More rumors, yay!
Well, what Vellos says is true...For only a few realms. *Hint: Treaties do sorta mean something-ish...Maybe*
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The letter I found from 27 days ago said "1200 gold per 1000 bushels"--of course, you have to actually get the food to Nightmarch. I have enough trouble just traveling Paisly-Madina-Fissoa.
Out of curiosity, can bandits attack you while traveling? At sea? I've never had a bandit attack me and take my gold, and I've wondered if that was because of my sea route.
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Hush, you!
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Out of curiosity, can bandits attack you while traveling?
Yes.
At sea?
Not sure. But probably.
Bandit attacks are driven by the amount of gold you are carrying. And possibly the number of soldiers you have. Although if you have enough gold, they will attack you and kill your guards. Or try to.
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I play the Banker of CE and find it next to impossible to keep track of where all of the food is at times. If there were one feature I wish the Bankers had it would be to see the following:
1. Location of caravans with food on them
2. Destination of said caravan and ETA
3. How much food they are carrying.
I realize for some of the smaller realms they may not need such info but with over 20 regions it does become quite a fiasco to try and keep track of it all.
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I play the Banker of CE and find it next to impossible to keep track of where all of the food is at times. If there were one feature I wish the Bankers had it would be to see the following:
1. Location of caravans with food on them
2. Destination of said caravan and ETA
3. How much food they are carrying.
I realize for some of the smaller realms they may not need such info but with over 20 regions it does become quite a fiasco to try and keep track of it all.
This, or something like it, is actually on my TODO list. It will become particularly important as ox carts are removed entirely and all food transfers that don't involve traders must use caravans.
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This, or something like it, is actually on my TODO list. It will become particularly important as ox carts are removed entirely and all food transfers that don't involve traders must use caravans.
That's great news! I think it would look great on a map.
One other feature I'd like to see is the ability for Bankers to know what regions caravans can reach. It should be common knowledge for the Banker.
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That's great news! I think it would look great on a map.
One other feature I'd like to see is the ability for Bankers to know what regions caravans can reach. It should be common knowledge for the Banker.
There's some stuff in the works that should make this both easy and impressive.