BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Fleugs on May 21, 2015, 08:39:58 PM
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Title: Public Wealth List
Summary: There should be a publicly available list of characters who hold "excessive" wealth.
Introduction: After looking at the statistics page, more specificly the continent-comparison stats that give pie charts, I noticed Atamara held more than 1.1 million (this is not a typo) gold. When I asked if this was the wealth between the characters, the answer was "yes". Even more info got out. Apparently the wealth is concentrated in some characters (e.g. one EC char has almost 100k gold, 6 atamaran nobles hold 500k gold between them, ...). Now, while hoarding gold is a very noble thing, I believe this situation needs at least some form of addressing. It might be useful if this were public knowledge. For example, if a character holds 100 thousand gold, be it cash or in bonds, I am sure that would be known amongst nobility. I'm going to estimate that the average noble holds, at best, 500 gold (I might be oddly off, though).
Details:
Tim suggested something good on IRC (and, well, it's Tim); "As long as you are one of the top X nobles on the continent as far as gold + bonds combined, *and* you are over (say) 10k, some approximation of your wealth is known, rounded down to the nearest 5k or 25k, depending on how much you have."
I think this is a good suggestion. It will ensure the exact amount of wealth a character has is not known, but an approximation will give others an idea at the very least. It could be added to the "Information" tab in the game, thus ensuring all players have access to it.
Benefits: Accountability of rich characters. Various ways for your characters to use this information to scheme, plot and seek out alliances. Fair information for a possible adversary.
Disadvantages: putting certain players under unwanted pressure.
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I vaguely remember that a few years ago the Devs increased gold output by 25%. Even back then, gold was in overabundance and the move was questionable.
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Should reintroduce wealth tax! Tax everything!
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Weirdly enough, I actually like the idea.
However what would prevent someone from using a secret society e.g. to 'hide' his money until a moment arises when he actually needs it?
*Edit, I was kindly reminded that those societies can only hold so much. So this may be less a problem than I had thought when I wrote this post.
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It's often forgotten that a SS's treasury is limited. You'd need to spend half your gold to be able to hide the other half.
Respectfully,
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You still get taxed even if you hide it... weird stuff.
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SS are not taxed. They still pay maintenance though.
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You could hide gold with a guild if you are the lord and you have no knights.
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The ruler can see how much gold a certain noble is holding.
There is no need to know how much gold a certain noble has, this would only increase the pressure over players, that I can see going to OOC discussions and would not bring any true benefit to the game as a whole.
You can already find out how rich is a character family.
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There is no need to know how much gold a certain noble has, this would only increase the pressure over players, that I can see going to OOC discussions and would not bring any true benefit to the game as a whole.
False. This might increase pressure over characters which is not a bad thing.
As always, if someone is making trouble and griefing people OOC titans can deal with it. We shouldn't instantly discard a feature because some player hypothetically might act like an ass over it.
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False. This might increase pressure over characters which is not a bad thing.
As always, if someone is making trouble and griefing people OOC titans can deal with it. We shouldn't instantly discard a feature because some player hypothetically might act like an ass over it.
You can not say that it will not make the environment for the game worse. Even IC, there will be problems.
There are already 2 features that can help to know the wealth of a Character/Family.
No need to add another one that has more potential to bring bad things than good.
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You can not say that it will not make the environment for the game worse. Even IC, there will be problems.
Sure he can. Exactly as easily as you can say that it will make the environment for the game worse
There are already 2 features that can help to know the wealth of a Character/Family.
One of those is only usable to rulers, only usable against one character at a time, and is pretty disruptive if he's caught at it. The other tells you about families, not characters, which is a completely different thing, and is capped at 20k gold anyway.
No need to add another one that has more potential to bring bad things than good.
You have asserted that it will be bad, but have done nothing to demonstrate that.
Like Constantine said, if people start harassing someone who's hoarding gold OOC, then report it to the Titans. That's their job.
If people start bugging someone who's hoarding gold IC, to do something useful with it...well, then, what's the problem with that? Why should they be allowed to just hoard gold forever and not have anyone notice or care?
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You have asserted that it will be bad, but have done nothing to demonstrate that.
Like Constantine said, if people start harassing someone who's hoarding gold OOC, then report it to the Titans. That's their job.
If people start bugging someone who's hoarding gold IC, to do something useful with it...well, then, what's the problem with that? Why should they be allowed to just hoard gold forever and not have anyone notice or care?
And do you have a good system to separate and indicate that the IC harassment is not extrapolating to OOC?
It would be very easy to harass a player and threat a banishment OOC and claim it to be IC.
And it would be too easy to make a IC discussion overflow to an OOC discussion.
If people suspect about a player hoarding gold there are already systems to investigate and use it IC.
To give power to everyone to keep tabs at other players gold, is too toxic.
You also have a weekly report of how much gold a character receive, and you can see how much gold his family has in the character detail page.
I see no need for a public wealth list.
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And do you have a good system to separate and indicate that the IC harassment is not extrapolating to OOC?
If you see OOC harassment, report it to the Titans.
It would be very easy to harass a player and threat a banishment OOC and claim it to be IC.
If you see OOC harassment, report it to the Titans.
And it would be too easy to make a IC discussion overflow to an OOC discussion.
If you see OOC harassment, report it to the Titans.
If people suspect about a player hoarding gold there are already systems to investigate and use it IC.
Only the ruler can do this. And how many of the people hoarding gold do you think are rulers right now, hmm? Or at least have rulers as close friends?
To give power to everyone to keep tabs at other players gold, is too toxic.
You keep saying this, but all you've given as evidence is "some people might harass them for it OOC."
You also have a weekly report of how much gold a character receive, and you can see how much gold his family has in the character detail page.
Everyone in the realm doesn't get to see everyone else's income.
I see no need for a public wealth list.
I do.
It makes perfect sense that nobles knew who held large amounts of personal wealth. They wouldn't know the exact amount, but they'd know the rough magnitude. That's what this feature seeks to show.
It will also, yes, provide pressure on those nobles to actually spend that wealth on something. I see this as a good thing.
Frankly, if someone is sitting in BattleMaster hoarding tens or hundreds of thousands of gold, and having people bugging them to spend that gold on something beneficial to the realm is enough to get them to leave the game, then I'm not sure they were really contributing that much to the game in the first place.
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So, can you prove it that a IC harassment is not actually OOC? Or based on OOC motivation?
What is your system?
It is easy to discard everything with a "report to the Titans" reply.
There is no need to everyone to know how much gold a character has.
The ruler can see it, you have family information to display how much a family has, and you also have the weekly tax reports that shows to the realm how much a character have.
You can get the same information and average knight share from the weekly reports.
This feature will cause trouble both IC and OOC and bring back the micromanaging that existed when everyone could see the stats of a region.
There is no need to show how much gold one noble has. If it is in a war and char A has no unit and still get a lot o taxes, you can call him out, no need to add the amount of gold he has.
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If you are a kind of player who hoards gold and sends it to his family to make to high score, yeah you'll not enjoy this feature.
If you're a kind of player who tries to make things done and make the realm functional, you'll find this feature very handy.
If someone is caught hoarding gold and banned because he refuses to make use of it there is no way you can claim it's an OOC ban. Just drop it.
Although I wouldn't want every character to be able to see each other's wealth. This feature perhaps should be reserved for the Banker and maybe Judge to some extent. So that there were still some lanes for corruption.
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So, can you prove it that a IC harassment is not actually OOC? Or based on OOC motivation?
What is your system?
My system is actually reading the messages in question, if such a case comes up, and using my brain to make a decision.
It is easy to discard everything with a "report to the Titans" reply.
Well, it is the appropriate response to OOC harassment.
There is no need to everyone to know how much gold a character has.
You can keep asserting this all day, and I can keep asserting the opposite, but until you actually provide something new to support your argument, I really don't see us getting anywhere.
This feature will cause trouble both IC and OOC and bring back the micromanaging that existed when everyone could see the stats of a region.
First you say everyone can already see this information, so we don't need it.
Then you say if we have this information, it will cause widespread micromanagement.
First of all, that's using two completely contradictory arguments to support your position.
Second, the micromanagement argument is just you asserting that something bad is going to happen without giving any realistic explanation of why people are suddenly going to do this.
Third, you do realize that this is just supposed to be showing the very very wealthy characters' wealth, don't you? It's really hard to make a strong argument about micromanagement when you're only dealing with character whose gold and bonds on hand total in the multiple tens of thousands.
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You make the treshold low enough to ensure that the average duke or rich city lord comes up in the list from time to time, but you also enable people who are really hoarding gold to be public knowledge.
The assumption also runs that this would be a realm-limited list. That was not my intention. My intention for this suggestions was to have it be continent-wide, i.e. everyone will know King-Duke-Margrave Bazillion is ridiculously rich.
Why would this even be bad? If people are playing Battlemaster to hoard the most gold on a character, well, they are playing the wrong game. Perhaps opening the knowledge of their wealth to others will allow them to find more uses for their gold.
I had considered that this would have OOC-repercussions, and I'm not even sure that is bad. My intention is to root out the rot from the inside. People hoarding ridiculous amounts of gold ingame who then do nothing with it at all, I call them the rot.
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You make the treshold low enough to ensure that the average duke or rich city lord comes up in the list from time to time, but you also enable people who are really hoarding gold to be public knowledge.
The assumption also runs that this would be a realm-limited list. That was not my intention. My intention for this suggestions was to have it be continent-wide, i.e. everyone will know King-Duke-Margrave Bazillion is ridiculously rich.
Why would this even be bad? If people are playing Battlemaster to hoard the most gold on a character, well, they are playing the wrong game. Perhaps opening the knowledge of their wealth to others will allow them to find more uses for their gold.
I had considered that this would have OOC-repercussions, and I'm not even sure that is bad. My intention is to root out the rot from the inside. People hoarding ridiculous amounts of gold ingame who then do nothing with it at all, I call them the rot.
You're willingly putting on blinders in your idealistic zeal based on modern sensibilities... you realize that the Darkans were ridiculously rich AND went to war constantly. How much gold a character or family has is in no way a direct correlation to how much they do or do not contribute to the game. So please stop, we're not a syndicalist commune.
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My system is actually reading the messages in question, if such a case comes up, and using my brain to make a decision.
Yep a non-accurate system then.
You can keep asserting this all day, and I can keep asserting the opposite, but until you actually provide something new to support your argument, I really don't see us getting anywhere.
You also have not provide anything that support your argument that this is a good feature.
First you say everyone can already see this information, so we don't need it.
Then you say if we have this information, it will cause widespread micromanagement.
First of all, that's using two completely contradictory arguments to support your position.
Let me help you use your brain then.
You have information on how much gold a knight gets per week. If you want to micromanage things you have to put a lot more work in it, calculating how much gold a char receive, the size of his unit, expenses per week, family wealth increase, etc
Now if you make it easier to give this information to everyone, you will open up to people actually wanting to say how many troops a char should recruit, paraphernalia, how much gold they should invest or send to the realm to other nobles, food to buy, etc.
Just like it happened in the past when the % of each region was visible.
I get that you like the idea, but it does not make it good.
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Yep a non-accurate system then.
So, in fact, what you're saying is, I'm incapable of reading a discussion and coming to an accurate conclusion about whether it's IC or OOC.
I think we're done here.
Sorry, Fleugs. Feature request is approved, but the thread has to be locked anyway.