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BattleMaster => Locals => Atamara => Topic started by: Indirik on October 20, 2015, 09:39:39 PM

Title: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 20, 2015, 09:39:39 PM
You suck.

The entire island is run by an unbreakable coalition that is so risk averse, they refuse to take even the smallest of chances. Everyone else is supposed to just fall in line and be good little client realms while the big boys make all the real decisions in their private forums.

I thought that this war in the south might break things up at least a little. But no. All it did was add another brick in the monolithic edifice of the League. Pick a fight with one League realm? Get ready for the inevitable gang bang, because there's no way in hell that any of them will ever do anything that goes against the League's best interests. This despite the fact that League realms are declaring war with the IC justification of "we were bored, so we decided to attack you".

So congratulations, League. You win Atamara. Now the island is just as f'ing broken as FEI. Hope you're happy.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on October 21, 2015, 12:32:43 AM
I'm assuming you didn't just realize that the League had won Atamara. That has been true for a long time.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 21, 2015, 01:40:05 AM
For about the past year there have been multiple things happening that made it possible for things to change. But at every opportunity, those in charge have constantly refused to do anything to allow the situation to develop. They have chosen to do nothing, and even to actively oppose any possible change to their dominance. The entire island is manipulated and held in thrall in an increasingly blatant manner. It's just pathetic.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: GundamMerc on October 21, 2015, 04:19:21 AM
For about the past year there have been multiple things happening that made it possible for things to change. But at every opportunity, those in charge have constantly refused to do anything to allow the situation to develop. They have chosen to do nothing, and even to actively oppose any possible change to their dominance. The entire island is manipulated and held in thrall in an increasingly blatant manner. It's just pathetic.

Yep, this is why I left.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: GoldPanda on October 21, 2015, 07:53:02 AM
We won?!  :D

... Is there a prize?  ;D
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: jaune on October 21, 2015, 09:49:25 AM
I think this conversation has been gone through many times in Atamaran history. At that light, CE & Co. has won Atamara several times :)

Time will heal this again, but this time... do we have time? Player base is shrinking, boredom has always and would eventually this time too create new atleast some sort of conflicts and eventually it would rotten CE/Tara block as well.

-Jaune
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 21, 2015, 02:17:09 PM
Indirik, have you lost all faith?

I know there is talk within the league on an OOC level to change things, but what'll happen with that I don't know. In the meantime we can try to change things a bit ourselves. So far in Caergoth we've seized every opportunity for war, after the realm was pretty much dead and have seen our noble count double. Now Suville offers a new chapter in the southern war, let's see what that will lead us. I refuse to give up faith :)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 21, 2015, 04:27:27 PM
Quote from: Gabanus family
Indirik, have you lost all faith?
Yes. I held out for a year or two, knowing that perhaps the ongoing conflicts might open the cracks and break it up.

Unfortunately, the League has proven to be completely immune to any kind of change. Multiple opportunities have come and gone. The members have made it blatantly obvious that they will do absolutely nothing that might risk their monolithic dominance. They have absolutely no desire to take even the smallest risk. It's complete lockstep marching.

Look at this recent idiocy with the southern war. Tara and Strombran, Federated, both supporting opposite sides of the same war. Both remain Federated, refusing to even consider any changes in their diplomacy, both happily traveling through each other's lands to attack the other's ally. Complete f'ing abuse of the entire game diplomacy system. Suville could not attack Tara while Tara was free to loot and burn, and manipulate encounter settings to control exactly when and where every battle would happen to ensure they never lost. Strombran did the same thing with Caergoth.

Strombran made it crystal clear that this was exactly the way the war was going to go, and that if Suville tried to do anything different, Strombran would abandon them and Suville would get wiped out. No doubt Caergoth was in the same boat.

Quote
I know there is talk within the league on an OOC level to change things, but what'll happen with that I don't know.
Nothing will happen. It's too late. They had their chance, and did everything possible to prevent it. There is absolutely no reason to believe that anything different will happen this time.

Quote
In the meantime we can try to change things a bit ourselves. So far in Caergoth we've seized every opportunity for war, after the realm was pretty much dead and have seen our noble count double. Now Suville offers a new chapter in the southern war, let's see what that will lead us. I refuse to give up faith :)
Good luck with that.

Quote from: GoldPanda
We won?!  :D

... Is there a prize?  ;D
Yes. You get the entire island all to yourself. Enjoy.

Quote from: Jaune
Time will heal this again, but this time... do we have time?
Nope.

Quote
Player base is shrinking,
The player count, especially in non-League realms is dropping like a rock. There are 200 characters left on AT. 150 of them are firmly in the League's pocket. (Talerium, CE, Tara, Strombran, Grand Duchy of Wayburg) I'm counting GDW as on the League's side, since they have already acknowledged that they have no choice but to side with the League. If they try to side with Suville against the League, they get wiped instantly, and everyone knows it.

The remaining realms include Caergoth, Suville, ML, and Rieleston. I have no reason to believe that Caergoth will take an active role against the League, or any reason to believe that most of Suville will go along with direct war against the League. And even if they do, so what? CE and Talerium are easily handling ML/Riel in the north: 86 v. 27. Strombran/Tara/GDW could no doubt handle Suville and Caergoth in the south: 61 v. 34. Even if GDW swaps sides and joins Caergoth/Suville, that 53 v. 42. A stray CE army every now and then makes short work of everything.

Quote
boredom has always and would eventually this time too create new at least some sort of conflicts and eventually it would rotten CE/Tara block as well.
So... who's going to be the one to break step? Talerium with all the former Darkans? You guys had the chance when Hemmings was ruler of CE. Neither CE nor Talerium would pull the trigger. CE kicked him out and put a more conservative ruler in his place. CE/Strombran had the chance when Tara was going rogue a while back. They didn't pull the trigger then. And Strombran had the chance just now with the southern war. They were too scared to even temporarily leave the federation to declare war on Caergoth.

At every opportunity to create internal strife and make a more dynamic island the League has point blank refused to even consider it. They continually double down at each and every chance.
 
In the past, there was always opposition to the League at all corners. But now Darka is gone from the north, and they've all joined Talerium, which is a staunch and steadfast League member. They may not be federated, but that's just paperwork. They are League through and through. Minas Leon in the northeast is under attack by both Talerium and CE. Suville has been broken in the south. Strombran betrayed Suville and stole an entire duchy, and Wayburg seceded to side with Tara.

The conflicts created through boredom have always come from outside the League, never from within. But now, there's no one left outside the League who could possibly create any meaningful conflict. The war in the south was already the last stab.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: jaune on October 22, 2015, 07:59:03 AM
Quote
The conflicts created through boredom have always come from outside the League, never from within. But now, there's no one left outside the League who could possibly create any meaningful conflict. The war in the south was already the last stab.

Thats the point now, it will become inside the league now. But when, and will it be too late?(Prolly too late already).
And is it going to be just one member kicked out and gangbanged for fun by rest of the league?

-Jaune
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 22, 2015, 10:59:28 AM
Based on what they're discussing now OOC, there's a plan to form one city realms within the league. I wonder if they can ever reach agrement though and if it would help much.

Also who says Caergoth would never turn on the league? All we've been doing is trying to get Tara to break with the league, although I am now 100% convinced that won't work. Won't stop us from warring Strombran though and going down with a bang.

Although for now I have some faith left, I do understand your problems with Atamara very well. Nearly impossible to fight against.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: DeVerci on October 22, 2015, 01:55:39 PM
Won't stop us from warring Strombran though and going down with a bang.
Why go to war with Strombran when Suville has plenty of regions that are now free game? Heck now you might even get us to fight them on purpose.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 22, 2015, 04:50:21 PM
Why go to war with Strombran when Suville has plenty of regions that are now free game? Heck now you might even get us to fight them on purpose.

Wow, why? Cause I could make it make sense RP wise.

Where's the fun in banging down with Tara and possibly Strombran on Suville? Easy, yes, fun, no. In the meantime, Strombran holds Riverholm, which was the IC reason for us to declare war. So now we can change :)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 22, 2015, 07:24:05 PM
Quote from: Jaune
Thats the point now, it will become inside the league now. But when, and will it be too late?(Prolly too late already).
And is it going to be just one member kicked out and gangbanged for fun by rest of the league?
The League has always been extremely resistant to internal upset. It's one of their primary strengths. I can't even begin to count the number of times the League has bent over backward to keep it together, despite serious potential conflicts. Remember when Tara brought Caergoth into the Federation without permission? The League responded by completely busting the federation apart and reforming it without Caergoth.

Ad, honestly, they already got to the point where they felt they had to do something to prevent falling apart due to apathy and inaction. Remember what they did? They picked the only non-League realm that wasn't already fighting and declared war on them. So no, I don't think there will be any change in the League so long as there is a single realm that they're not all allied to. And the other people outside the League think the same way. And they're responding by... abandoning Atamara, just like they have been doing for years.

Quote from: Gabanus
Based on what they're discussing now OOC, there's a plan to form one city realms within the league. I wonder if they can ever reach agrement though and if it would help much.
You mean they're finally starting to realize the abominable state of the island? I suppose it's good that they realized it before it got as bad as FEI. Too bad it's too late to matter.

Quote
Also who says Caergoth would never turn on the league? All we've been doing is trying to get Tara to break with the league, although I am now 100% convinced that won't work. Won't stop us from warring Strombran though and going down with a bang.
Suville tried to get Strombran to defy the League, too, even if just temporarily and indirectly. At Strombran's insistence we tried to work with the League to get things to change, and they thumbed their noses at us. We tried to get Strombran to defy the League in even just little ways, and they thumbed their noses at us, too.

Quote from: DeVerci
Why go to war with Strombran when Suville has plenty of regions that are now free game? Heck now you might even get us to fight them on purpose.
That's one way Caergoth could go. Indeed, given the diplomatic situation, they would probably get lots of support, and be able to roll over Suville easily. Some Suville lords may swap sides, and you might even have a further secession or two as the lords scramble to preserve their little fiefdoms.

I can think of several reasons why to NOT just finish wiping out Suville.
1) This war was not one of territorial expansion. It's a matter of principle and honor. Riverholm is literally the only thing they wanted. By claiming Riverholm for their own, Strombran practically guaranteed that Caergoth will attack.
2) Both Caergoth and Suville have been treated like !@#$ by Tara and Strombran. They've been used and abused throughout this entire war. The message non-League realms are getting: If you're not one of the Big Three, you're !@#$. (Although I personally have my suspicions that the League is really CE/Tara, and Strombran is politely accorded the status of red headed stepchild: tolerated and allowed to use the smallest bedroom, but not *really* one of the family.)
3) Assume that Caergoth goes ahead and wipes out Suville, and takes all their land. Or maybe splits it with the Grand Duchy. What then? Now they're completely surrounded by League nations. And Strombran has already made it crystal clear that war against any single League realm means all out war with *all* League realms. (Tara has almost certainly said the same to Caergoth.) Once Suville is gone they're choice would be to sit in their corner and die of boredom, or attack the League and get gangbanged. Do you want to attack the League *before* you've wiped out everyone that could help you, or *after*?
4) Assuming that Caergoth wipes out Suville, some nobles of Suville will doubtless abandon the region rather than change allegiance to Caergoth or Wayburg. This reduces the total pool of nobles in the region even further, making future actions more difficult when the inevitable decision is made to go after a League realm. (Inevitable because, you know, they'll be all that's left...)
5) War with Suville is, essentially, zero risk. Boring. I know that's the way the League likes things, but it's that kind of "easy, low risk" attitude that got us where we are now.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 23, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
The League has always been extremely resistant to internal upset.... even have a further secession or two as the lords scramble to preserve their little fiefdoms.

True, all we tried to do is get Tara to turn on the league (even in small form as well), but any proposal of even temporarily breaking the federation were shot down...

But yes, they've realized it's the league in its current form which has made Atamara boring. The question becomes, can they all agree on the solution and aren't they already too late.

I can think of several reasons why to NOT just finish wiping out Suville.
1) This war was not one of territorial expansion. It's a matter of principle and honor. Riverholm is literally the only thing they wanted. By claiming Riverholm for their own, Strombran practically guaranteed that Caergoth will attack.
2) Both Caergoth and Suville have been treated like !@#$ by Tara and Strombran. They've been used and abused throughout this entire war. The message non-League realms are getting: If you're not one of the Big Three, you're !@#$. (Although I personally have my suspicions that the League is really CE/Tara, and Strombran is politely accorded the status of red headed stepchild: tolerated and allowed to use the smallest bedroom, but not *really* one of the family.)
3) Assume that Caergoth goes ahead and wipes out Suville, and takes all their land. Or maybe splits it with the Grand Duchy. What then? Now they're completely surrounded by League nations. And Strombran has already made it crystal clear that war against any single League realm means all out war with *all* League realms. (Tara has almost certainly said the same to Caergoth.) Once Suville is gone they're choice would be to sit in their corner and die of boredom, or attack the League and get gangbanged. Do you want to attack the League *before* you've wiped out everyone that could help you, or *after*?
4) Assuming that Caergoth wipes out Suville, some nobles of Suville will doubtless abandon the region rather than change allegiance to Caergoth or Wayburg. This reduces the total pool of nobles in the region even further, making future actions more difficult when the inevitable decision is made to go after a League realm. (Inevitable because, you know, they'll be all that's left...)
5) War with Suville is, essentially, zero risk. Boring. I know that's the way the League likes things, but it's that kind of "easy, low risk" attitude that got us where we are now.

Which is exactly why Caergoth chose a different path. There were some nobles with 'serious doubts' in Caergoth on whether or not this was smart, but none too great to even remotely protest the proposal of the King.

There is one difference however, Tara/Caergoth's relation was much better than Strombran/Suville so it seems. Tara even now has already proclaimed they support Caergoth's claim on Riverholm and will not interfere. Strombran seems to have been bluffing against you, but your chars will find this out soon enough as the Suvillian King already knows what's going on IC.

Ps. the reasons for war you gave where the IC reasons obviously. Ooc played as much, if not more, a role in the declaration as no war was boring as hell and as the rulers of Caergoth we decided within a day together that we had to do something and this war would be perfect, or at least better than the alternative.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 23, 2015, 05:40:38 PM
Why the &%#$% do they need an ooc agreement to take ic action? Just do it! We don't need happy, shiny agreement everywhere. We need misunderstandings, disagreements, and conflicts.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 23, 2015, 07:02:03 PM
Well maybe because if you're the only idiot who goes along with it in the end, you'll end like Garas did on East Continent...but yeah I don't know. Any action is better than no action though
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 23, 2015, 07:21:59 PM
You had another secession at the same time. That one didn't last long, though. Too bad you didn't get more support from your duchy members. You could have had a bigger opportunity.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on October 23, 2015, 09:10:12 PM
Good timing Indirik, as has been mentioned there have been OOC discussions started by the player of Mighty Toff over the last week. A bit in CE realm chat but mostly in The League guild chat.

Personally I wanted to have a big old civil war and then have a big war with Tara or Talerium with huge armies, but it seems most people want to jump straight to setting up ~2 city realms, very much in the way Morek was broken apart. There has been talk of having some sort of Holy Roman Empire system to prevent anyone from getting too big.

I agree that someone just needs to do it already, though I'd like to get back to Cagil to get a new unit first :p
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Sacha on October 23, 2015, 11:15:28 PM
As Indirik said, why the incessant need to discuss everything OOC beforehand? What does that even do? So instead of three big realms banding together and dominating the rest of the island, we'll get some smaller realms banding together and dominating the rest of the island?

Hooray for change!
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 24, 2015, 07:38:55 PM
Actually, there is now 1 chance of truly transforming everything, right now. That chance is for Tara. Strombran has 'stolen' another city from Caergoth, which is Tara's ally. In a few days we'll see if the south is going to suicide one last time on the league, or if Tara takes the opportunity and strikes hard at Strombran. Everyone knows there is no love left between those two. No OOC needed anymore, bamn!

@Indirik, was indeed a shame the rest butt out, but we're having a bit of fun nonetheless. DSS is on 13 nobles atm, Sirion lacks the army to siege it now...
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 24, 2015, 08:11:44 PM
And at least you won't starve.   ;)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 24, 2015, 10:10:03 PM
And at least you won't starve.   ;)

True, with Ser'quea gone, so is our food problem :)

Indirik, always such an optimist!
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 24, 2015, 11:33:13 PM
I wasn't taking about AT that time...
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 25, 2015, 12:48:50 PM
I wasn't taking about AT that time...

Haha oh, well yeah on EC everyone sells us food. Even bought food from Sirion Lords.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 25, 2015, 02:35:01 PM
I didn't think you could do that while at war.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on October 25, 2015, 07:06:47 PM
Definitely a bug. Realms with hatred or war relations should not be able to close trading deals.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 26, 2015, 10:38:42 AM
Now that I think of it, that might have been before Sirion declared war, but after the split...
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: johnny Hammarberg on October 26, 2015, 07:47:09 PM
You have to excuse me, I was under the beleif that I had been gone from this game for a few years but by the sound of it cant be more then a day or two  ???

These alliances with strong unbreakable bonds have always been around and most of them have been broken, all you need to do is to look at the history of Atamara and discover that some are gone forever and some have been reforged.

One reason alliances are hard to break is due to honor or as I used to say "My word is enough no need to get it in writing", going back on your word and stab an ally will stain your family name for a long long time and whatever trust a ruler or realm have gained may be lost for ever. The history have showed us that if you are patient a dagger will be planted in someones back or one or more rulers will make a misstake that will change the diplomatic map.

The name may be BATTLEMASTER but we all want peace at our border and a safe realm...unless we can take our neighbour down without to much fuzz and gain a region or two. Maybe there should be sever punishments to realms that are in peace for two long (been tried) or a boost to realms that can maintain the status of war to one or more realms ?

I do not know a good solution to this dilemma but I have learned that patience is a good virtue to have while on Atamara.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 26, 2015, 09:02:46 PM
So your family name is worth more to you than the health of the game? You'd let the entire island go to hell in a handbasket because, hey, I have to protect my character's family name!

Well, too many people have been patient for too long while waiting for someone else to do something. Now we're all screwed.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: jaune on October 27, 2015, 08:43:21 AM
Indirik, thats the way it is, we wanted it or not.

When you mess around, you will bumb to your past every now and then.

If KK (prolly any of my chars at Atamara :P) ever gets ruler again, that realm will propably beaten to death at any cost by CE & Co.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on October 27, 2015, 12:41:13 PM
If KK (prolly any of my chars at Atamara :P) ever gets ruler again, that realm will propably beaten to death at any cost by CE & Co.

Heh, I could say the same for Merlin. Which I think is part of the problem. But I lost. So, clearly enough people like things the way they are to keep them that way.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 27, 2015, 02:45:18 PM
Characters, definitely. But as far as families go, especially across continents, it shouldn't be so extreme. An action you take on AT shouldn't have such an extreme effect on your characters on BT. If it does, then you get what we have here: people afraid to do anything because it will screw up your whole family reputation.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on October 27, 2015, 05:55:43 PM
Well, whether it should happen or not, I think it does. At least somewhat.

It's at least one of the reasons why I am playing a completely different family now. So no one associates my characters now with what they did before. I didnt like the implied behavior attached to my family name.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on October 27, 2015, 06:10:42 PM
In my experience, I find 'stained' reputation to be less of an issue from when there were more characters. That is, realms are more desperate for anyone willing to step up and will gladly overlook whatever disrepute may exist for another warm body.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Fuchs on October 27, 2015, 07:39:28 PM
How bad has the player count dropped?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 27, 2015, 07:45:51 PM
Very slow decline. 500 registered, about 200 daily players.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Fuchs on October 27, 2015, 07:51:22 PM
Due to the server change?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: johnny Hammarberg on October 27, 2015, 07:54:11 PM
So your family name is worth more to you than the health of the game? You'd let the entire island go to hell in a handbasket because, hey, I have to protect my character's family name!

Well, too many people have been patient for too long while waiting for someone else to do something. Now we're all screwed.

Its all about trust when you are sitting on a throne, if you mess things up you will spoil the fun for the players within your realm and fun is whats its all about.  Back when I was a ruler I probably pissed off every single realm on Atamara  and a few other realms on different continents as well by either playing it safe or by actually doing whats expected of a ruler in a social experiment focused on war and diplomacy. A stallmate is hard to get out of but it have been done before but never without trust between rulers making up plans.

Waiting for too long was said and yelled back in 2010 and early 2011 I guess... Then the war started, the war that made all other wars look like small skirmishes and it went on for a long long time, I really dont know how it ended as I had a life crises and left the game during a time of chaos. But I can assure you that the stallmate before this war was made out of concrete and no one could see a war coming but it did.

I am not saying that I dont understand your frustration but that I do understand you and that I have been there chewing on my fingers waiting for someone to act or something more exciting to happen at turn then to see how much food arrived to what region!

What I do hope for is when things will change and they will is that those on the losing side of the war doesnt give up their will to play, we lost many players during rough wars when they think that all their time spent in a lost realm is time wasted...
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 27, 2015, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think the server move had too much effect. There's no obvious blip in the line.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Fuchs on October 27, 2015, 08:15:22 PM
So what's happening to altamara now? Their seem to be wars happening and small realms with a few regions, that are surrounded by larger realms. There also seems to be a large diffrence in players between the realms.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on October 27, 2015, 10:21:16 PM
So what's happening to altamara now? Their seem to be wars happening and small realms with a few regions, that are surrounded by larger realms. There also seems to be a large diffrence in players between the realms.

I've personally been too busy to keep up with the OOC discussion, but there's a few entirely IC things happening. Talerium just ended their war with Rieleston, but the consequences may open some avenues. Strombran's growing through defector duchies and Suville has now declared war on them - it's a foregone conclusion who will win, of course, but will Strombran take their lands and continue to swell? Should the rest of the League be concerned? Really, will Tara stand for it?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Fuchs on October 28, 2015, 01:05:49 AM
So it will be stormbran, Tara, and the other realm against Suville?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 28, 2015, 01:10:35 AM
In true Atamaran tradition, eh?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 28, 2015, 01:27:54 AM
But, um, Suville has not declared war.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Fuchs on October 28, 2015, 01:33:07 AM
Suville dosent have any allies?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 28, 2015, 02:25:18 AM
Strombran used to be our (Suville's) ally. After various incidents IG, it was felt that Strombran was using the war for their own gain, at the expense of Suville. This was spurred along by the, frankly, !@#$ed up diplomacy of Strombran and Tara, and the fact that Strombran's units actually lined with Tara to fight against Suville several times. Most notably in the recent Suville attack on Wynford. This, and the revelation that Strombran had decided to keep Riverholm, and never told Suville about that, caused Suville to declare that Strombran had betrayed them, and Suville disbanded the alliance, allowing Tara to immediately declare the war to prevent Strombran and suville from resigning the alliance. (As if we wanted to...)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Fuchs on October 28, 2015, 02:28:53 AM
Suville seems to be holding a significant force, unless its mostly in milita.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 28, 2015, 10:37:12 AM
Suville should have 1, or 2 allies soon enough at least. Atamarian tradition is slightly broken. Then again, the south is always known to be 'rebellious'.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on October 28, 2015, 06:22:11 PM
But, um, Suville has not declared war.

Oh, whoops. I thought you had... I see that's not the case in the diplomatic relations page. Maybe it was just a message that Strombran forwarded. Thanks for the explanation and correction.

The politics are still about right, though. I'd be happy to see Suville get some allies and put up a good fight, but they currently have to worry about a Strombran-CE-Tara force descending upon them with Caergoth and Wayburg circling. The interesting dynamic is also still whether or not the rest of Atamara decides Strombran's actions are okay.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on October 28, 2015, 06:41:19 PM
Tara has broken its federation!
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on October 28, 2015, 07:26:36 PM
Step 1!
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 28, 2015, 10:14:52 PM
Strombran caves, gives Riverholm and Ser'Quea to Caergoth, then the federation reforms.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 28, 2015, 10:40:14 PM
Strombran caves, gives Riverholm and Ser'Quea to Caergoth, then the federation reforms.

That would be an option, but I doubt it. I see it more likely that CE will interfere in stead, but we'll see. War is coming at least.

Also for the record to Eirikr, Caergoth was offered Suville on a silver platter by Tara and Strombran, but refused. I wouldn't expect Caergoth and Wayburg to 'circle' around Suville for now. Not unless Suville pulls out another trick (which everyone suspects) and stabs someone in the back of course :p
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Faldron on October 28, 2015, 10:54:41 PM
I am very new but I am hoping to assist Suville in gaining a stronger presence in the south. I envision a Suville that is not so easily under foot.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 29, 2015, 10:08:06 AM
Faldron the only option for Suville now is to gain allies rather than more lands if you ask me. They used to hold Wynford and the Riverholm Duchy and Wayburg as well, didn't bring them much either ;-)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on October 30, 2015, 04:43:10 AM
Also for the record to Eirikr, Caergoth was offered Suville on a silver platter by Tara and Strombran, but refused. I wouldn't expect Caergoth and Wayburg to 'circle' around Suville for now. Not unless Suville pulls out another trick (which everyone suspects) and stabs someone in the back of course :p

Guess I was banking too much on the "mortal enemies" aspect of it. Really, the fact that Suville isn't in more dire straits right now baffles me from an IC perspective. OOC, it makes perfect sense.

Ah well, good for them.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 30, 2015, 11:44:08 AM
Guess I was banking too much on the "mortal enemies" aspect of it. Really, the fact that Suville isn't in more dire straits right now baffles me from an IC perspective. OOC, it makes perfect sense.

Ah well, good for them.

Maybe, just maybe OOC creeped in slightly when we made that decision. But even IC it makes more than enough sense. Strombran took Riverholm and Ser'quea from Caergoth and their attitude was enough for the war. Plus Caergoth has had enough of the federation's hold as well. Suville alliance was therefore rather forced, but explainable :)

Now it's just waiting to see what CE does.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: DeVerci on October 30, 2015, 01:04:16 PM
Looks like the Atamaran style of war is still alive and well despite all the moaning and complaining as what could have been a good series of engagements will turn into a complete gangbang.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 30, 2015, 02:50:36 PM
Looks like the Atamaran style of war is still alive and well despite all the moaning and complaining as what could have been a good series of engagements will turn into a complete gangbang.

Are you kidding me?  The entire truce/alliance between Suville/Wayburg/Caergoth was prepared/signed a week ago or so already to reclaim Riverholm. Strombran actually proposed to destroy Suville entirely and Tara would have helped. Only because Caergoth declined, Suville still lives now. That would have been a gangbang, this is hardly one. CE will no doubt move to assist Strombran and level the war again and even if they don't it will only bring a bit more balance to the continent as a whole.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on October 30, 2015, 04:28:07 PM
Yeah... If anything, this is still balanced a bit in Strombran's favor with CE's backup. (Depending on what Tara decides to do.) Supposedly the CE's military is diminished from complacency, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them whipped up with a real enemy now on the docket.

Let's just hope we don't have the sides seeking peace at the end of November.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on October 30, 2015, 05:28:23 PM
Am I the only one who sees a problem with the fact that these diplomatic changes on Atamara can from OOC discussion instead of IC discussion? Does no one else see the irony of how bad the situation is when people choose to talk OOC about making changes instead of just leaving it IC like it should be?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 30, 2015, 05:33:48 PM
Am I the only one who sees a problem with the fact that these diplomatic changes on Atamara can from OOC discussion instead of IC discussion? Does no one else see the irony of how bad the situation is when people choose to talk OOC about making changes instead of just leaving it IC like it should be?

And why would you think that our war is not IC based? Everone in the south have enough reasons to despise Strombran and the federation. There has also been no love between Strombran and Tara for a long while no, so not so surprising there. True, OOC sentiments did push some things more than others, but it's still IC.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on October 30, 2015, 06:40:20 PM
Am I the only one who sees a problem with the fact that these diplomatic changes on Atamara can from OOC discussion instead of IC discussion? Does no one else see the irony of how bad the situation is when people choose to talk OOC about making changes instead of just leaving it IC like it should be?
On the contrary I think most everyone was probably well aware of that. Indeed the player of Mighty Toff was the one to start the discussion OOC, and it certainly had reached the point where something had to be done but the prodding had to begin OOC. Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on October 30, 2015, 07:51:54 PM
The problem is that is just totally against the rules by my understanding. The whole point is that you always play your characters with an OOC perspective of keeping things fun for everyone (euro game style) while interacting IC.

By doing it OOC you just remove the risk. It's like the least interesting way of solving the problem.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 30, 2015, 07:57:56 PM
The problem is that is just totally against the rules by my understanding. The whole point is that you always play your characters with an OOC perspective of keeping things fun for everyone (euro game style) while interacting IC.

By doing it OOC you just remove the risk. It's like the least interesting way of solving the problem.

True, but again what makes you think that the current events aren't IC? The things which were discussed in the league have in fact not been executed, none of them! In stead, some completely different things occured (the south rallying together and Tara breaking the federation) all with perfect explainable IC logic. (None of this was discussed in the big OOC debates though, so I'm not sure what the complaint is for current events?).
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on October 30, 2015, 10:10:00 PM
I won't pretend to have finally read all that OOC chatter, but I think the only one that was mostly borne of it was Shadowhaven. Ivore (the character) I think has wanted to do it for some time, so someone suggesting it OOC was all the player needed to just say "OK, now's the time".

Everything else, to my knowledge, has been fairly natural responses to the situation (Tara and Strombran have been belligerent to eachother for a while)... OOC might have made people brave enough to take the action that probably would have already happened in a real-world situation. Really, the only bit that doesn't sit well with me is allying with Suville. Everything pointed to them getting steamrolled now that it was an option. I mean, I guess the League was the real problem preventing them from solving their own problems, but...

The Talerium-Rieleston turnaround, however, was 100% IC as far as I'm concerned. Talerium wanted better access to Minas Leon for later, without worrying about Rieleston. *shrug* We're simple like that.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on October 30, 2015, 11:26:39 PM
I can assure you that Caergoth - Suville is totally IC as well. It's a mixture of Caergothian honor culture, dislike/hatred towards the federation and the plundering during the war, and the Duchy of Riverholm which was the start of the entire war in the first place. Steamroling Suville was an option, but then what. Caergoth would be dead in the water, with no chance against the league. There is a strong dislike still between Caergoth/Suville but both have a grudge against Strombran also.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on October 31, 2015, 12:42:52 AM
We both found someone we can hate more than each other. The turnaround was totally ic.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Moto_o on October 31, 2015, 03:04:08 AM
Dear Atamara, why you no sink yet?


PS. I miss you.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: GoldPanda on November 01, 2015, 05:43:43 AM
Dear Atamara, why you no sink yet?

PS. I miss you.

"I feel bad for you."

"I don't think about you at all."  8)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Moto_o on November 01, 2015, 07:25:23 AM
Don't lie, you little minx. You know you missed me. I bet you haven't changed since the last time I saw you.

~Blows a kiss to Atamara~
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: GundamMerc on November 01, 2015, 08:11:50 AM
Don't lie, you little minx. You know you missed me. I bet you haven't changed since the last time I saw you.

~Blows a kiss to Atamara~

Well Tara broke the Federation, so there's that. >.>
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on November 01, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
We both found someone we can hate more than each other. The turnaround was totally ic.

Quoting the shorter one for brevity... I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't. IC at all, just that it seemed a weird way to go. That said, it does stand to make Atamara interesting again for a bit longer.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: DeVerci on November 19, 2015, 01:44:40 PM
Quote
Region Lost to Corruption   (7 hours, 29 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Strombran
Local government officials in Tarkhog announced earlier today that according to ancient documents, General Lafiel Lamhirh, who happened to coincidentally be in the region at that time, holds an ancient and undisputable claim to lordship of Tarkhog. They officially handed control of the region over to her and Grand duchy of Wayburg! Shortly afterwards, the responsible officials were nowhere to be found.
Well this is a really fun conflict isn't it? An alliance of southern realms who all hate each other ICly and that was mostly organized OOCly for the purpose of breaking up another alliance, just buying regions with their bloated gold from the stagnation period.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 19, 2015, 02:57:02 PM
We still hate each other. We just hate Strombran more. Enemy of my enemy, and all that. apparently you still don't understand how much Strombran pissed off *everyone*.

Although, to be honest, Suville is pretty pragmatic about the Wayburg secession. We don't have enough people to take it back. We were screwed, and knew it. Julius made an amicable treaty with them pretty quickly.

And stop complaining about giant gold reserves. Strombran had multiple cities and few nobles for years. And your lands were untouched for this entire war. Hell, it's been *years* since you lands have ever even seen a battle that didn't involve rogues. If you don't have gold it's your own fault. If you're that hard up, ask your allies for some of their hundreds of thousands of reserves.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on November 19, 2015, 04:17:22 PM
Well this is a really fun conflict isn't it? An alliance of southern realms who all hate each other ICly and that was mostly organized OOCly for the purpose of breaking up another alliance, just buying regions with their bloated gold from the stagnation period.

First of all, Caergoth and Suville are probably the nations (looking at recent history) that have the least stagnation as they actually fought each other. This war was the second one in relatively short time. During all this time, Strombran fought not a single war. So you should have more gold than we do. The difference is, this gold is family wealth that people are willing to spend. Perhaps those in Strombran are no 'devoted' enough, or whatever you want to call it, to do so as well.

And again, yes Suville and Caergoth are still not good friends and many still don't trust Suville. But this last war against Suville was fought over Riverholm. Strombran decided to take the city and proclaimed that all other claims, other than their own (which they didn't really have to begin with) were baseless and non-existing. Basically, Strombran told both Suville and Caergoth to !@#$ off. Also don't forget that Strombran had been raiding Caergothian lands for a long time on the (cowardly) Taran method. The entire situation brought with it a hate towards the federation, which in all honesty has always been present in the south, all of the south. For the first time however, Caergoth saw an opportunity to strike back and they took it. The alternative was to destroy Suville and take their lands (with ease as Tara would support it) but after that they'd be stuck with nothing as they still couldn't oppose the federation, Caergoth would be dead-locked. As a final insult, Strombran took Ser'quea and quickly denounced all other claims to the region as well.

So for the last time, the majority of the arguments for the south to unite was IC. While no doubt OOC sentiments played their parts also, the majority of this was pure IC logic and hatred towards Strombran and the federation's dead-lock.

Trust me, when this is over, there will no doubt be war in the south again. I don't believe this alliance will last long once the federation has been brought to its knees. But then again, why should it? But right now, there's someone who's more hated than any other. And I must admit I had expected CE to be stronger. The forces right now are somewhat unbalanced, but not as much as in the old 'gangbang' days of AT. The end of the federation, you don't want to know how many tried and failed.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on November 19, 2015, 06:31:26 PM
I must say that the 500 gold bounty Rielston put on a number of CE's nobles' heads including my own is quite flattering. The hilariously inaccurate accusations of raping and murdering a bit less so, but that is certainly within the realm of believable rumours and peasants telling exaggerated tales.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 19, 2015, 06:41:42 PM
Fwiw: When a unit loots a region and that results in the unit raping the locals, the noble's own realm is not informed of that little part. They get the same message as if rape was not involved. Only the perpetrating noble and the victim realm get the true report. This gives the perpetrator some deniability. Also, not all looting incidents are reported to the noble's realm. So if the enemy is reporting it, but you're not seeing it, don't start shaking your head because you *know* ooc that they're lying. They very well could be telling the truth.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on November 19, 2015, 07:02:34 PM
That is true yes, though their kings claims seem to indicate that he believes it was ordered or at least planned. The orders were strictly NO RAPING and if anyone was caught raping they would be heavily punished. It definitely lends to the possibility of exaggerated rumours and it's perfectly fine IC fodder.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 19, 2015, 08:20:10 PM
Sure is.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on November 19, 2015, 08:38:47 PM
I must say that the 500 gold bounty Rielston put on a number of CE's nobles' heads including my own is quite flattering. The hilariously inaccurate accusations of raping and murdering a bit less so, but that is certainly within the realm of believable rumours and peasants telling exaggerated tales.

Do you mean Minas Leon? I thought they put all the contracts out?
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 20, 2015, 01:11:22 AM
We still hate each other. We just hate Strombran more. Enemy of my enemy, and all that. apparently you still don't understand how much Strombran pissed off *everyone*.

Although, to be honest, Suville is pretty pragmatic about the Wayburg secession. We don't have enough people to take it back. We were screwed, and knew it. Julius made an amicable treaty with them pretty quickly.

And stop complaining about giant gold reserves. Strombran had multiple cities and few nobles for years. And your lands were untouched for this entire war. Hell, it's been *years* since you lands have ever even seen a battle that didn't involve rogues. If you don't have gold it's your own fault. If you're that hard up, ask your allies for some of their hundreds of thousands of reserves.

Just curious, is this more or less pissed off than people were at Merlin with the founding of Silnaria? (Throwback Thursday for me)
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on November 20, 2015, 02:55:18 AM
Do you mean Minas Leon? I thought they put all the contracts out?

Yes yes I do my bad, I don't know how I got them mixed up.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 20, 2015, 04:32:35 AM
Just curious, is this more or less pissed off than people were at Merlin with the founding of Silnaria? (Throwback Thursday for me)
More.

I can only explain it from Suville's point of view. Someone fro Strombran can explain it from their PoV.


So... yeah. Strombran managed to piss off just about everyone.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on November 20, 2015, 07:47:38 AM
I would agree with that "more" assessment, but add one more point: Strombran's moves were all sponsored in some way - that's how they got away with so much. This also means, however, that the fall is much higher. In some sense, this also means less because the CE at least is supporting them and that's a pretty significant chunk of the continent. Merlin got lambasted by everybody when he went public. :/
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: GundamMerc on November 20, 2015, 09:41:22 AM
I would agree with that "more" assessment, but add one more point: Strombran's moves were all sponsored in some way - that's how they got away with so much. This also means, however, that the fall is much higher. In some sense, this also means less because the CE at least is supporting them and that's a pretty significant chunk of the continent. Merlin got lambasted by everybody when he went public. :/

CE is a paper tiger, at least for the size that it is. The people in command of the military (basically only the Prime Minister and the General at this point, with the Prime Minister sending almost every single order) are not really the best suited in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 20, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
How could CE support them in that? Sounds messed up.

Also, were murderous settings not an option?

I think I would have dropped that alliance much earlier. If you aren't fully defending a realm, then you need to simply be at peace. But, yeah AT politics are too messed up.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: DeVerci on November 20, 2015, 02:17:09 PM

Also, were murderous settings not an option?

Nope, Strombran marched in the middle of Caergoth's lands several times with murderous settings but couldn't trigger a battle. The only way to do that was to loot until a mob formed to force a conflict.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 20, 2015, 04:41:25 PM
Murderous settings are unreliable because of one very important distinction: You cannot be a "murderous defender" and force someone else to attack you. This is related to the explanation in the other thread about "possible diplomacy bug". The game first decides who the defender is, then looks for anyone that wants to fight them. If the one with the Murderous settings is picked as the Defender, then it's up to the other person's settings as to whether or not there is a battle. The Defender's encounter settings are never checked!

What you have to do is force the foreigners to be the Defender, so that their encounter settings are not used to determine if there will be a battle. This is not easy. When you're wandering through someone else's region, the region owner will almost always be the Defender. You have to jump through some hoops to make the foreigner the Defender, and even then the foreigner usually has to make a mistake.

Remember:
Step one of the battle system is "Who's the defender?". In this case, the region owner in their own region, with no TO running, is almost always the defender.

Step two is "Who wants to fight them?" If the foreigner is neutral or defensive, then they don't want to fight. So no battle.

How do you make the foreigner the defender? I can think of two ways.

The first way requires the invader to be stationary, while no home troops are in the region. If the foreign troops are in the region across a turn change, and all the home region troops are marked as "freshly arrived", then the foreigners will control the field and be defenders. The region owner is now a potential attacker, and their Murderous encounter settings will trigger a battle. If the foreign troops keep moving, this method won't work. The foreigners will always be "freshly arrived", and never the defender.

The second way is to arrange it so that the home troops and the foreigners arrive in the region at the same time, and for the home troops to have a *smaller* force. If even one home realm unit is already in the region when everyone else arrives, even if it is a militia unit or peasant group, then the home team will control the field and be the defenders. All home realm troops have to be freshly arrived. The reason for the home team being smaller is that when all other means of determining the defender have failed, the battle system defaults to "Bigger army is the defender". And if all units are freshly arrived, and there's no TO going, and there are no peasant mobs, then the game throws up its hands in disgust and picks the biggest army.

Both of these methods are very difficult to arrange. There will usually end up being some militia unit already there, or a rogue monster group popping up to throw things off. Or you have to chase the invader and can't ever manage to arrive in the same region together. And even if you do, you'll have to have a smaller force to trigger the battle, which means you'll probably lose.

As always, the real answer is to fix your screwed up diplomacy. If you want to fight them, declare war.

In Suville/Caergoth's case the two realms weren't willing to do that, because it would mean canceling their only alliance and being cut loose to fight by themselves. In Suville's case, it was made clear that if they dropped their alliance with Strombran, that Strombran would walk away, and Suville would have to face Tara and Caergoth on their own. I imagine that Caergoth got the same answer from Tara. Strombran wasn't willing to break out of the federation, and neither was Tara. Both realms were more than happy to sit pretty and be invulnerable, while having all the fun they wanted burning down regions of realms that couldn't possibly fight back.

Strombran could have gotten away with it if they hadn't gotten greedy. Who knows how long Suville would have put up with it, if it hadn't been for the Wynford debacle, and the revelation that they claimed Riverholm for themselves.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 20, 2015, 05:39:37 PM
Honestly that just sounds more like OOC abuse of game mechanics than any legitimate IC thing.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 20, 2015, 06:24:06 PM
I wouldn't go that far. But I did take them to task over it ig many times. Various other people over time have mentioned it, but none so strongly as I did.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on November 20, 2015, 08:07:01 PM
CE is a paper tiger, at least for the size that it is. The people in command of the military (basically only the Prime Minister and the General at this point, with the Prime Minister sending almost every single order) are not really the best suited in my opinion.

Why do people love the term "paper tiger" so much? It's so overused in this community and seems to always crop up when people are trying really hard to discount someone. A slow period does weaken a realm, but it is silly to think it's unrecoverable.

I wasn't even making a point about their power, just that in terms of noble population, it's likely that a higher percentage of Atamara's total nobles were upset with Merlin's move back then.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: GundamMerc on November 20, 2015, 08:45:58 PM
Why do people love the term "paper tiger" so much? It's so overused in this community and seems to always crop up when people are trying really hard to discount someone. A slow period does weaken a realm, but it is silly to think it's unrecoverable.

I wasn't even making a point about their power, just that in terms of noble population, it's likely that a higher percentage of Atamara's total nobles were upset with Merlin's move back then.

I've seen that term used maybe twice, including my own post... so your complaint about people using it so much is a bit mistaken. Plus the term has a specific meaning outside of Battlemaster that is easy to understand, so there is that. Plus I'm a part of the realm, I'm seeing what they're doing so I know how good or bad their military is.

And you said that Strombran had the support of CE, which is a large chunk of the continent. You didn't specify "noble population of CE" rather than military support.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Eirikr on November 20, 2015, 09:31:59 PM
I've seen that term used maybe twice, including my own post... so your complaint about people using it so much is a bit mistaken. Plus the term has a specific meaning outside of Battlemaster that is easy to understand, so there is that. Plus I'm a part of the realm, I'm seeing what they're doing so I know how good or bad their military is.

And you said that Strombran had the support of CE, which is a large chunk of the continent. You didn't specify "noble population of CE" rather than military support.

I know what the term means and I've seen it a ton, especially on FEI recently. I checked the forums and see it hasn't popped up here (that is, outside of game) as much as I thought it had. Sorry, I guess I feel people are too quick to apply it and I'm too quick to judge.

Back to the actual point, I didn't think I had to. Silverfire was questioning peoples' opinions, not their military might. Context should've been sufficient.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 20, 2015, 10:06:54 PM
Well thank you for your thoughts. Not being on Atamara, it does sound like an interesting change. I hope it keeps up and doesn't quickly revert to stagnation.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Ossan on November 20, 2015, 11:42:20 PM
CE is a paper tiger, at least for the size that it is. The people in command of the military (basically only the Prime Minister and the General at this point, with the Prime Minister sending almost every single order) are not really the best suited in my opinion.
Eh, they're hardly the worst either though. I'd say the biggest problem is people not moving properly, it's like herding cats (or lions, I guess). Although I'm not sure how many are just off doing their own thing or being AFK or lazy, or those like me who often miss orders because I have a job and I sleep and they sometimes come way too many hours after the 9PM PST turn change (new job only lets me check BM briefly at like 4 am).
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 21, 2015, 01:09:38 AM
I think most of the super active, highly interested people have left. What's left are those of us who can withstand the inactivity, but are less motivated to make sure we move every day.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 21, 2015, 01:11:22 PM
I think most of the super active, highly interested people have left. What's left are those of us who can withstand the inactivity, but are less motivated to make sure we move every day.

Either this or a combination of those super active highly interested people being us, but we've turned into those who can withstand inactivity.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Blue Star on November 23, 2015, 03:18:55 AM
 ::)

I'll show you a abuse of game mechanics... we'll maybe later. Inactivity? Are we playing the same game Mr. Merlin, again?

Indirik you old goat, we are all just outgrowing the game, many of us have been here 10+ years now anything over 5 years is surprising at this point. Anyone below that time well i'm glad they can enjoy this treasure, but that's a trickle from early 2000s. Let's stay positive and kill some Rabbits.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 23, 2015, 03:35:30 AM
Indirik you old goat, we are all just outgrowing the game, many of us have been here 10+ years now
I haven't hit 10 quite yet. Another... 3 months? :)

Quote
Let's stay positive and kill some Rabbits.
You already killed 'em all. :p
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Blue Star on November 23, 2015, 04:04:05 AM
I haven't hit 10 quite yet. Another... 3 months? :)

Really?  Well either way your no spring chicken, sir. Not like whipper snappers postings i've read over on here... Mr. 10,000 post. Hands some Coffee.

Moto is around here somewhere isn't he, what island is he on? I'll hunt him down and assassinate him... I mean umm that's not OOC planning is it?

Erikir is still chatty as ever in forums, I see.

GoldenPanda is still conquering realm after realm. As well as now ruling. So nothing has changed to much.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: jaune on November 23, 2015, 02:04:34 PM
I'm not ruler at any realm :) Thats somekind of change :P

-jaune
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on November 23, 2015, 04:28:26 PM
Is that a good or bad change? We're certainly not hearing as much about socks, at least.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: jaune on November 23, 2015, 06:33:35 PM
I really dont know, i guess its others to judge :D

Mayby one day i will step up again.. after gathering enough socks to send for sucking :P

But for now, i enjoy playing regular knights at BT and Atamara, KK is duke thought, but RR is just random knight at Tara.

I hope AT will get some lively action and more nobles now that there is conflicts going on.

-Jaune
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Moto_o on November 23, 2015, 07:06:56 PM
Just look for the people who chant "Moto! Moto!" while they ride giant white rabbits.

Dumps a sack of white rabbits on Wind ... I mean Blue Star.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Dante Silverfire on November 24, 2015, 05:30:48 PM
Just look for the people who chant "Moto! Moto!" while they ride giant white rabbits.

Dumps a sack of white rabbits on Wind ... I mean Blue Star.

*Looks through all of the continents with fine detail*

*Finds zero instances of this phenomenon*

*Continues with his day*
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 04, 2015, 10:44:52 AM
I will note some things that Indirik said that are wrong.

I play Regstav Pryde, the ruler of Tara.

Regstav never EVER threatened or in any way suggested that the alliance with Caergoth would be ended if they did not do what Tara said, suggested, or ordered.  Period.  End of Line.

Regstav always considered them a true ally.  And never forced them to do anything. 

Regstav also never offered up all of Suville to Caergoth.  Regstav wanted Suville weakened since he considered it too strong.  Weakened but not destroyed.  I worked to get Riverholm returned to Caergoth but nothing more.

The raiding campaign against Suville only started once Strombran started sending individual units to keep the Taran army from joining Caergoth in attacks.  There was much anger over that.

And when Tara tried to replicate the tactic in Caergoth, Stromban just used murderous settings to start the fights, and due to the diplomacy the Taran forces were shifted to attack Caergoth.  There was...more anger over that.

And so we started just raiding Suville because that was all we could do.  Short of ending the federation with Cagil that Regstav was not willing to do.

Then Strombran took Riverholm via ducal secession and claimed it and there was MORE anger.  Then they took Ser'quea via ducal secession and that was just it.  Done.  Put a fork in me.  Just done.

I told Wayburg and Caergoth that I didn't think I could protect them from Suville because I didn't think Tara was going to be in any position to project power in the very near future.  I suggested to both of them that they ally with Suville so they could look after each other, and then I relaxed relations with Suville so they could do that.  And have slowly been relaxing relations with Suville ever since.  No alliance...but...that's asking a bit much of Regstav...but certainly a "if you look after our friends I won't lay a finger anywhere near you" kind of thing.

And then Tara broke the federation and instantly attacked Strombran.  Strombran really couldn't do much.  But then Cagil jumped in.  They may have been a paper tiger a few months ago.  I can say from experience they are NOT a paper tiger now.  Not at all.  And I was VERY right to assume that Tara would not be in a position to protect either Wayburg or Caergoth.  Cagil is a tough opponent.

I would actually say that with the Cagil/Taran conflict going on and the Strombran/Wayburg/Suville/Caergoth conflict going on, things are fairly close to even between the two sides.  Basically everybody is getting their tickets punched while the northern realms watch.

It's rather impressive to see how much things are changing.

As a player, I wanted the federation gone the moment I became Tyrant.  Before that, all I could see was from Regstav's perspective and he wanted it strong and whole.  Then as a ruler and a player I saw how it stagnated the island.  And from that moment I as a player wanted it dead and buried.  So I started working to slowly take apart all the entangling alliances that have crippled the island.  Things actually worked pretty well on that regard, though each one took a while to get through.  The last and hardest one was obviously the federation.  That took some extreme work to get broken, and I don't know if that would have been possible without Strombran acting so...badly.  So props on the rulers of Strombran for giving everybody good reasons to hate them...;)

It's too bad the devs decided to shut everything down once it got interesting, but at least I can say one thing.

We did good.  One year ago, the League had an unmitigated lock on diplomacy on the island.  Every single nation was allied with at least one member of the League.  That mad warring pretty much impossible.  A year later, most of those alliances are gone.  Thanks in no small part to Cagil and Strombran being very helpful when it comes to breaking alliances when I or others put a little pressure on them.  Tara's alliance with Caergoth is actually the only one still active.  The federation itself is fractured, and there is war inside the League.

Atamaran politics have been smashed well and truly.  I would have loved to find out where they went after this.  But the devs decided not to let that happen.  That's on them.  We players did the math and chose to make a change that worked very well.  And I'm real proud of that.

It took a decade to build the League into the most powerful alliance very possible in the entire game.  It took us one year to break it.  And if we did sorta decide in the end to do it via some OOC communication, I can say without reservation that everything was IC when it broke.  There were tensions for years, and we just finally decided...you know...for the good of the game...for the good of ALL the players on the island...let the tensions break.  Let's see where it goes.

It went good.  I'm happy.

This was the first real time I was ever an actual ruler.  I've ruled before, but never for more than a few days.  I've never really sought the position.  This was the first time I really did.  And it was because Foda is my home as both character and player.  It opened my eyes a lot to how people have to play.  To how rulers have to play.  Rulers have two jobs in a lot of ways.  One is to make their realm strong.  The other is to make sure there are other realms to fight against.  Which have to be some challenge.  Because if the OTHER guys aren't having fun your guys won't either because they'll run out of people to fight against.  So rulers really HAVE to take a step back into OOC just a bit because we have to make sure our players can have fun.

And this game is BattleMaster, not PeaceMaster.  So it is our job to make sure there are people to fight.  For one year, the entirety of my time as Tyrant of Tara, I've pushed for that.  And other rules have helped.  We all worked together to make sure that we could break the stranglehold of alliances that had Atamara crippled.  And we did it.

As a player, I'm down right proud of that.  Regstav the character is bloody unhappy about it.  But Medron the player is giggling with joy at seeing the biggest alliance in all of BattleMaster lying in ruins.

And it never would have been possible without the other rulers taking the same step back I did.  We worked together as players to give everybody a chance to fight and have fun.  And we had lots of ideas for the future.  Maybe we'll just have to replicate them elsewhere now.

;) 
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on December 04, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
We need more rulers playing with OOC thought on player fun, not just their realm's success. Same with other council members. Same with religion elders.

It's unfortunate that your/Escent/others efforts didn't start bearing fruit until so late, but I look forward to the lesson here being applied throughout BM now. I think it'll be much easier once there are more characters within fewer islands.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 04, 2015, 12:13:11 PM
The religion game is about to die with the new rules...

The rest...we shall see...

The devs killing off the one island that was working really hard to change has left a lot of people angry and disillusioned.

I've already seen a lot of people saying they won't go elsewhere.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

I don't know what I will do, but one thing I am doing is trying to organize things so my people at least who want to can go somewhere else and have fun.  No idea if any of my characters will go with them, but I owe it to them give them as good a chance as possible.  Even if it is the last thing I do as their king...
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on December 04, 2015, 12:30:16 PM
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The religion game is about to die with the new rules...
Not sure I follow, but I've long been of the opinion that new and immigrating characters should also be required to join a religion like they choose a realm.

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The devs killing off the one island that was working really hard to change has left a lot of people angry and disillusioned.
People are going to be angry and disillusioned no matter which islands are closed. I don't think AT was/is the sole island working hard to improve. I do think AT acted too slowly for any change it was making.

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I've already seen a lot of people saying they won't go elsewhere.
Before the islands are sunk in January, all characters remaining on the island will be relocated to another continent.

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I don't know what I will do, but one thing I am doing is trying to organize things so my people at least who want to can go somewhere else and have fun.
I encourage your efforts. With the current density, isn't difficult to carve out a new area whether via the new realms or established realms.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 04, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
If you can only have one noble in each continent, very few people will pick a priest to be that one noble.  Most people who have priests, have one warrior and one priest.  That is what I do.  With the new rule, that is not allowed.  Priests are simply not an interesting enough class for most people to want to play ONLY THAT.  Which means the number of Priests that we have will drop with this new rule, and that will probably cause some religions to disappear altogether...



One another note about the war and such.  I was very clear in my orders and they were followed.  No Taran unit ever crossed Strombonian lands to attack Suville until after Suvillan and Strombonian troops crossed Taran territory in missions against Caergoth.  I was very clear.  Tara would not be the first nation to violate that gentleman's agreement, and we were not.  I wanted it stamped in scouting reports that we were not the first to violate that, and we got them.  Strombran was caught red handed in our territory on an attack mission against Caergoth.

That was when I unleashed my general to cross into their territory as much as he wanted.  And boy did he want to...;)  He was an awesome bad cop to my goodish cop...of course he was a Carelian...he probably wanted the League burned down as much as the southern realms did.  I never asked him though.  I was just happy to have someone even more aggressive minded than me as general.  He did such a good job ratcheting up tensions in the league.  It was awesome.  :)

From a player perspective of course.  Hehehe.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Gabanus family on December 04, 2015, 03:57:08 PM
I can attest to what Medron says about Tara/Caergoth and believe I have mentioned this before as well. The relation between Tara/Caergoth was much better, more equal, than that of Strombran/Suville strangely enough. Although I did get the impression Tara wanted Suvilled wiped out, but that is only a minor detail :)

I do hope the Pryde family joins the quests for new lands (although you unfortunately can't join our efforts for BT which would have been awesome). You're always welcome in Oligarch (Duchies of Southern Sirion, yes I know...) in fighting a very strange war, or you can choose one of the new realms.

We have made the end of Atamara awesome and I'm not very fond of losing everything my chars have built up on AT (as you know I have 2 chars there). But I've decided to be positive in this and This is why I'm so active with collecting one cohesive group as you know better than anyone :) We'll turn it into a new chapter, the Atamaran invasions!
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on December 04, 2015, 09:36:20 PM
If you can only have one noble in each continent, very few people will pick a priest to be that one noble.  Most people who have priests, have one warrior and one priest.  That is what I do.  With the new rule, that is not allowed.  Priests are simply not an interesting enough class for most people to want to play ONLY THAT.  Which means the number of Priests that we have will drop with this new rule, and that will probably cause some religions to disappear altogether...

Does one have to play a warrior on all the islands? Can't one play a priest on one island and a warrior on the other three? And do we forget there are skilled priests on AT and FEI moving to these islands, as well?

With you declaring 'most people who have priests...', I took a quick look at priest families on EC, BT, Colonies. I didn't compare exactly so I can't say which is 'most', but yes, there's a large chunk of 1 warrior/1 priest families on an island, especially within Sirion/EC. There are still noticeable amounts of single-char priests on and island, as well as 2 priests families on an island (particularly Colonies).
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 04, 2015, 10:26:27 PM
One reason that most people do 1 warrior and 1 priest is because the priest game is so separate from the rest of the game that one can often become heavily detached from the actions of the realm.  It is much closer to the adventurer game than the noble game which is why so many people begged you to treat priests as adventurers.  When I had a single priest in one realm with no one else, I literally lost track of the realm.  When I brought in a warrior to the realm it helped to anchor me to realm and made me a much better player in support of the realm.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on December 04, 2015, 11:02:45 PM
Hmm....that's not how I've played my priest at all, but admittedly he rather came from a silver-spoon background within his realm as well and a bit of a buddha-esque giving up of imperial power to found the religion (meant to preserve an older religion from destruction).

I think, too often, religions fall into two major traps. Become too associated with realms and is basically used as an extension of the realms. Or becomes too disassociated from realms and thus irrelevant (usually those more focused on some *awesome* theology only they and a small group care about).

The way I've tried to play my priest is more like a spiritual advisor to the rulers and nobility on the state of the island, trying to push concepts/ideals that I/we think would improve the island. So there is a connection to realm politics without being an extension of another realm. To me, from a priestly perspective, I care less about the specifics of the realm (who wars who, specific person in power and their politics, who one allies) than the general atmosphere of 'are these virtues/values being fulfilled in this realm and what as a priest can I do to change that?' (there is a war or not or nature of war being gangbang/equitable or short/long distance, council talks to realm or is silent, realms choking island in alliance or not). It's more a cultural concept of shared values/ethos where we still disagree on other things and war based upon them, than an alliance of religious nobles working together or a group of players having theological roleplays or discussions.

I don't see priest and advy as too similar. Priests, as nobles, still have *huge* communication options. Advies just...don't. That is the crucial difference. If nobles didn't have the communication options they do, it'd be little different than the primarily click-nature of the advy (and the game would suck).
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 04, 2015, 11:23:16 PM
I've been a priest in a Realm-Religion and we did get a lot more involved in the wars.

I've also been a priest in religions that spanned continents.  Sanguis Astroism over in Dwilight.  I was one of the priests that helped write their ten or however many prime tenants.  That was fun.  But we were divorced from the realms because we were priests first and realm nobles second.

My current priest is the High Priestess of Daishi.  That used to be a realm-religion started to protect the core of a nation after there was a rebellion and the priests went over to the rebel side and started driving the loyal regions rogue.  It morphed into an anti-Daimon religion when the Invasions came, and the Daimons did everything they could to wipe the religion out entirely.  Almost succeeded too.  They just missed one temple.  After that, Daishi became a non-realm religion and is now the dominant religion of the continent.  I could go into any realm and destroy them if I wanted to.  I have that kind of power.  But as Daishi is purely an Anti-Daimon religion that does not interfere in temporal decisions, everybody knows I won't do that.  So all the other religions have just faded away.  Nobody fights Daishi because Daishi doesn't fight them.  We are just...everywhere.

Daishi actually covers a similar role the one the League of the Eagle does on Atamara.  The League has people from every nation in it and it is the quickest way for people on one end of the island to talk to the other side.  It is the same with Daishi.  We have nobles from just about every nation in our ranks.  Heck, there are two of us who share the top position in the religion.  Our nations have been at knock down drag out fighting war for as long as either of us can remember.  We never have a cross word for each other.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on December 04, 2015, 11:29:11 PM
Excellent. I've never had a fond impression of Daishi, but I think I'll have a char try it out now. Rather awkwardly, she's had conflict with Daishi before though...Oh well.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Indirik on December 05, 2015, 03:27:06 AM
My quoting here is going to be a mish-mash from several different messages, all re-ordered into separate topics...

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If you can only have one noble in each continent, very few people will pick a priest to be that one noble. Most people who have priests, have one warrior and one priest. That is what I do. With the new rule, that is not allowed. Priests are simply not an interesting enough class for most people to want to play ONLY THAT. Which means the number of Priests that we have will drop with this new rule, and that will probably cause some religions to disappear altogether...
We know from experience that there are a certain number of players who will enjoy and prefer the priest game. We had, at certain times, 17+ priests in Sanguis Astroism on Dwilight. And you can only have one noble character on that island. There were also more priests in other religions. So, yeah, there are players willing to do it, if that choice provides enough options.

Having said that, I don't view a smaller number of priests as a bad thing. Nor do I view a smaller number of religions as a bad thing. Too many religions dilutes the limited amount of power available. Too many priests in a religion dilutes the amount of power and authority that a religion can hold over a larger number of players. It's like a realm with 8 rulers. A significant number of them will just sit around doing nothing, because someone else will handle anything that needs done.

IMHO, too many religions limits and spoils the religion game, turning it into a proxy for the realm. Every realm will have their own religion, and the vast majority of them will be nothing more than a blatant extension of their realm government. The realm leadership and religion leadership become virtually identical. It's a bad thing, and it greatly spoiled the early religion game. You have to have a limited number of religions so they can organically spread to cover multiple realms. That's when interesting things can start to happen. It separates the religion from the realm.

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So rulers really HAVE to take a step back into OOC just a bit because we have to make sure our players can have fun.
This is very true. And it's also very difficult. Those who tend to rise to long-term power are usually the builders. Builders (including myself) are loath to take actions which they know to be detrimental to their creations. Letting go is Hard!




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The raiding campaign against Suville only started once Strombran started sending individual units to keep the Taran army from joining Caergoth in attacks. There was much anger over that.
Ha! I'm glad that got Tara mad. At least something was going right.

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And when Tara tried to replicate the tactic in Caergoth, Stromban just used murderous settings to start the fights, and due to the diplomacy the Taran forces were shifted to attack Caergoth. There was...more anger over that.
Even better! Just like Suville was getting pissed that Strombran troops were joining with Tara to fight against Suville.

It's good to hear that the screwed up diplomacy was pissing off everyone. (Except perhaps Strombran. I never heard them complain all that much about it. In fact, they went on at great lengths about how it was really to everyone's advantage.) It's unfortunate that no one was willing to actually do anything about it, though, until too late.

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No Taran unit ever crossed Strombonian lands to attack Suville until after Suvillan and Strombonian troops crossed Taran territory in missions against Caergoth. ... Strombran was caught red handed in our territory on an attack mission against Caergoth.
Being in Suville, that's something that I never heard about. If it's true (I'm not saying you're lying, just that it's possible that something may have happened of which you could be unaware), then it's something that Strombran wouldn't have admitted. In Suville we were told that it was Tara that kept changing the rules without letting anyone know beforehand. I.e. Taran troops suddenly started appearing from Strombran lands and attacking Suville, and everyone acted surprised and angered about Tara taking more liberties with the federation.

In any case, the entire war was just about guaranteed to make lots of people very angry about the entire situation. Suville having three or four different rulers over that period of time made it difficult for there to be any kind of coherent, cohesive policy/response over the entire course of the war. Having stepped back as general of Suville before the war started, I'm not privy to all the higher level discussions, either.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 05, 2015, 01:39:18 PM
I think I actually agree with most of your points when it comes to religion.  I also like the idea of fewer religions than nations because as you said it makes the religion game different from the nation game...

As for how the diplomacy stuff messed with the war in the south...yeah...that federation stuff was a bugger to work against, and Strombran was much better than we were at figuring out ways to stiff it to the other guy...

And I was better at ordering that Tara respect each individual little bit of the federation we could and just WAIT for Strombran to pull something tricky....and when they did I was really good at protesting the dishonesty of such disloyal tactics and such...and then unleashing my general to do the same thing right back...  hehehe

Ah...the Elder Channel in the League of the Eagle was a warzone...from a player perspective it was awesome...:)


On Daishi and such?  Absolutely.  The more the merrier.  Yao Ling runs the religion as...nonaggressively as possible.  Priests are banned from raising the people up against secular rulers...since it is of course the mission of Daishi to protect the common people from the Destroyers of mankind, the monsters, the undead, and the daimons.  ;)  When it comes to the beliefs and tenants of Daishi...well...the really basic one is that there are gods fighting a war against enemies that would break our sanity if we saw them.  The monsters, undead, and daimons are lesser servants of their enemies that sometimes slip through the battle lines and we must defeat them.  If we cannot, the gods may have to step in and their weapons are powerful beyond imagination.  Yao Ling teaches that the loss of the lands under the Blight was the gods doing.  They saw that we could not defeat the daimon blight and chose to remove it from the earth to give us a chance to survive.  She doubts they will be able to do that again if we should fail once more.  And anyone who dies in service to Daishi will go on to the next realm where the gods battle and be given the honor to fight at their sides in the greater war beyond our own.

As for individual thoughts on Daishi and such?  The gods reveal themselves to everybody in different ways.  There has never been a case of any member of Daishi being kicked out or even threatened with the charge of apostasy.  There are no tenants that everyone must believe, no chants that must be done verbatim to prove you are a true believer or anything like that.  The only requirement is that you stand against the undead, monsters, and daimons when they come.  Anything else can be worked with.
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Vita` on December 05, 2015, 09:01:22 PM
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Priests are banned from raising the people up against secular rulers...
Interesting. My char (who had admittedly 'borrowed' a small amount of gold from the local temple months earlier under less than peaceful means) was thrown out by a fronenite priestess through religious means.

With the new scroll mechanic on BT, I'll be amused to see how Daishi respond to that. *cackles*
Title: Re: Dear Atamara...
Post by: Medron Pryde on December 05, 2015, 09:15:52 PM
Yao Ling never heard about that.

I didn't know about it either actually.  It's news to me.  ;)

As for the scrolls...she's against that too.  And she's asked people to send her reports so she can deal with those who have used them.

She hasn't gotten any reports yet...

 8)