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BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: LilWolf on June 11, 2011, 07:02:43 PM
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So let me share my story with you. I decided to make one of my characters an infiltrator. I spent about 2 months doing nothing but training at the academy and got my infiltration skill up to around 60%. Figured it was enough so that I could do something useful. So off I went to burn some food stores at the enemy lands. I thought I was being careful by choosing the lowest risk options, selected regions with no militia or other nobles and after one burning moved to the next region. It worked a few times, but then in the 5th or 6th region I got caught and ended up being banished. So..was the 2 months of playing academy zombie worth it? I'd say no.
Is the infiltrator class really ok as is, where it takes months of boring training to get anywhere(or in my case, not get anywhere)? Is there any way to make it less disappointing? Are even the simplest actions too high risk, thus preventing people from actually gaining their skills by doing things instead of training at the academy?
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From what I've heard, I think your problem may be in assuming that you need the 2 months of training to have a chance.
Yes, if you start attacking people right off, you'll get caught. But if you start off by trying lower-risk options (like burning grain stores, delaying travel, and whatnot), then from what people have said who have tried this method, you have a decent chance of success even at lower levels.
...Perhaps what needs to happen is that the lowest-risk options for most infiltrator actions need to reduce the chance of success further, but also drop the chance of capture down to nearly nothing, as that is what will most quickly end an infiltrator's career. Would you be willing to accept (say) a maximum 1/5 chance of succeeding in burning stuff down, if you knew that there was a maximum 1/100 chance that you would get caught doing so?
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From what I've heard, I think your problem may be in assuming that you need the 2 months of training to have a chance.
Yes, if you start attacking people right off, you'll get caught. But if you start off by trying lower-risk options (like burning grain stores, delaying travel, and whatnot), then from what people have said who have tried this method, you have a decent chance of success even at lower levels.
...Perhaps what needs to happen is that the lowest-risk options for most infiltrator actions need to reduce the chance of success further, but also drop the chance of capture down to nearly nothing, as that is what will most quickly end an infiltrator's career. Would you be willing to accept (say) a maximum 1/5 chance of succeeding in burning stuff down, if you knew that there was a maximum 1/100 chance that you would get caught doing so?
Well, the general atmosphere among infiltrators is that you'll be dead if you don't train at the academy to get your skills very high. My experience seems to support that. I had ~60% infiltration skill(with any other skill you'd be in very good shape with that) and I did low risk grain burning in empty regions and was very quickly caught and banished. I mean, there wasn't even militia, no nobles with units..who's going to catch me? I think that's certainly something that should play a bigger part. If there's no one else in the region you really should not end up in prison for a low risk action.
It would indeed help if failure without capture was more common for low risk actions. Maybe people wouldn't feel so compelled to spend months at the academy because they fear losing everything in a few days.
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i daresay that would be fine improvement in balancing if arrests would be less frequent, but failures be more frequent at the same time, even with more h/p cost.
the same would even better apply to assassinations - failure in assassination to result in wounding/serious wounding for attacker (did such feature exist before?!).
that would also provide some more fun for the to-be-victim, as now and than he could boast with his skills against assassins.
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Attackers can be wounded or seriously wounded by their targets, but it's rare, and usually only happens when the target is a far superior swordsman. Perhaps add a chance to get wounded by the target's guards if you are discovered. You would still escape, but you would be taken out for a couple turns after barely escaping with your life.
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Just a random thought: Wouldn't it be cool if infils could intercept messages? :)
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Just a random thought: Wouldn't it be cool if infils could intercept messages? :)
'fraid not. To paraphrase: Anything that makes people not trust the message system (and hence move to OOC means of communication) is bad, and will never get implemented.
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Good point :)
What about intercepting shared army scout reports? ::) Can't blame me for trying, right? :P
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If you want to infiltrate any group, do it via...infiltration as in deception and the such, not by virtue of some class.
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Infiltrators work fine the way they are right now. They do not need to be nerfed or buffed.
It's just a class with a murderous learning curve. (Pun intended.) You'll have a few executed or deported characters on your hands before you figure out how the class should be played.
The players who know what they are doing can inflict a lot of damage with infiltrator characters. Coordinating with a bunch of other infiltrators in your realm helps as well. I've seen entire realms crippled because almost all of their senior leadership have knives in their backs.
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Yes,. it is a very high learning curve. That is not, I think, LilWolf's point. The point is that infil in general takes months of academy work before you can get out in the field and do anything. Back when infils were invisible, we used to tell them to not do anything until they hit 60%. That rule still holds today. Train up to 35% and then try to go burn some grain stores. You'll be captured and banned inside your first 5 attempts. Then you're mostly useless, and forever branded as an infil, under suspicion for *every* action that takes place.
It would really be nice if an infil could actually be useful before they got to 60%+ skill levels.
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What's the alternative: sitting back for a few months and then being on godmode for years? Infil actions can do some pretty serious damage, if it's so hard to catch them a single infil could totally wreck a realm. Elite infils can already do serious damage on a realm.
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Chénier, what do you think about the idea of having low-risk options have a much higher fail rate, but also much lower capture chance?
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It also matters whether failed attempts give at least a chance for skill gain, with the same criteria as normal actions, meaning no experience when acting against own realm. After all, we learn from our mistakes. That would at least make repeated attempts have some meaning.
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Chénier, what do you think about the idea of having low-risk options have a much higher fail rate, but also much lower capture chance?
I think there should be easy "training" missions--such as "sneak into a farmhouse and murder the farmer and his family". Success does only minor damage to the enemy--he likely won't notice 5 dead peasants--but at the same time, the infil is probably going to get away with it.
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I think your "training missions" would be stuff at the academy that you're supposed to RP. That's about as safe as you can get. If you want to do something so safe that it barely does anything, it's better off not even being an option. Why?
On one hand, if it's really safe, but gives a higher chance of skill gain than academy training, and maintains skill each time you use it, then it'll easily allow someone to go to 100% infiltration, no problem.
On the other hand, if there's no skill gain or maintenance, then you're just wasting time and effort doing something that would barely be noticeable. Better off investing the time and money in the academy.
However, what could work is a skill gain limit to certain "safe" actions. This means that once you reach, say, 40%, then doing something like "sneak into the baron's sister's bedchambers", would provide you with no chance of skill gain.
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Chénier, what do you think about the idea of having low-risk options have a much higher fail rate, but also much lower capture chance?
I think it'd be fair. Don't they have the choice to play it safe? Imo, they could be playin' it a little more safe, if you know what I mean, on some missions.
Though to think of it, isn't part of the problem the fact that *all* infiltrator actions can cause bans? On one side, one can loot, initiate takeovers, and kill in battle, but will never be able to be banned. On the other, one can simply play around with road signs and then get banned for life, risking death on his next capture. Seems a little unjust, no? Maybe having it so that infils caught cannot be banned unless they were caught red-handed, such as with a bloody knife in their hands or purses full of gold, while being caught sneaking around not being enough would be a better alternative. After all, isn't plausible deniability the thing we are going for with infils nowadays? They should be able to plausibly deny their way out of a ban, then, should they not?
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I think it'd be fair. Don't they have the choice to play it safe? Imo, they could be playin' it a little more safe, if you know what I mean, on some missions.
Though to think of it, isn't part of the problem the fact that *all* infiltrator actions can cause bans? On one side, one can loot, initiate takeovers, and kill in battle, but will never be able to be banned.
Heck with battles and looting, you can commit high treason by defecting with the capital and still not be banned.
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Heck with battles and looting, you can commit high treason by defecting with the capital and still not be banned.
True enough.
Mind you, I think switching your region's allegiance really ought to cause a ban. I mean, simply switching realms as a knight used to do this in the past... While that was a bit extreme, I think it's more than warranted if you take a region along with you.
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We're not commoners, and the lord of the region can go swear to whatever duchy he pleases. Who knows how "realistic" this is, but it would sure as heck make a lot of people mad that they either must get banned or stay with an enemy realm in case something weird causes their region to join an enemy realm while they stay on as lord. This has happened occasionally in the past.
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How about you add more options? Like Very low risk and very high risk? That would allow low-skill infils to enjoy the class they've chosen already, get a little preview and training and allow very skilled infils to risk it all in order to do major damage to a region, or a noble.
On banning, I completely agree that it's a bit ridiculous that you can be banned for burning down a granary yourself but not if you order your men to do it. Who *really* cares about one granary anyway? In the greater scheme of things, it's not worth a ban I think.
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When it's your men it's an act of war. Your men, paid low class soldiers, are doing it under noble orders. For some realms, it could even be an honorable tradition.
When you dirty your own hands doing it, you are a criminal. Hey, the logic might be a bit screwy by modern standards, but it sounds alright for its time period. Besides, your judge can ban you for looting or fine you. And when you have at least five soldiers with you who have won the most recent battle, if any, a bunch of peasants sure won't be too keen to stop you. When they do they'll have numbers and be loosely organized as a giant mob. But they wouldn't be too eager to die piecemeal against your professional soldiers outside a warehouse.
When you're alone, the peasants know they stand a much better chance. This isn't a game like Assassin's Creed where you're a superhuman fighting machine. You can escape, yes, but sometimes you're surrounded. You can take out maybe even a dozen. Then how many more before your body feels tired?
Two things to keep in mind: Swords are heavy. Infiltrators specialize in stealth and ambush attacks, not sustained overt combat.
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We're not commoners, and the lord of the region can go swear to whatever duchy he pleases. Who knows how "realistic" this is, but it would sure as heck make a lot of people mad that they either must get banned or stay with an enemy realm in case something weird causes their region to join an enemy realm while they stay on as lord. This has happened occasionally in the past.
Not really. A region is only more or less a lord's property. Really, he's just a manager for the guy above him that gets to profit from most of its spoils, and so all the way up the ladder to the Sovereign. To swtich allegiance is to break your oath and steal what was taken from you. I dare say it very much is treason and worthy of a ban.
How about you add more options? Like Very low risk and very high risk? That would allow low-skill infils to enjoy the class they've chosen already, get a little preview and training and allow very skilled infils to risk it all in order to do major damage to a region, or a noble.
On banning, I completely agree that it's a bit ridiculous that you can be banned for burning down a granary yourself but not if you order your men to do it. Who *really* cares about one granary anyway? In the greater scheme of things, it's not worth a ban I think.
Burning food stores can often do quite some damage. If you are caught burning food, I think that warrants a ban. But say you are just counting the gold and caught empty-handed, or just caught playing with the signs, or otherwise just caught before them doing any damage. Plausible deniability should prevent bans in those cases.
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When it's your men it's an act of war. Your men, paid low class soldiers, are doing it under noble orders. For some realms, it could even be an honorable tradition.
When you dirty your own hands doing it, you are a criminal.
This is pretty much it.
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One of the issues is how banishment are handled. It's actually one of those few things in the game where the turn junkies get the upper hand.
If the banishment option for infiltrators captured in low risk operations was tweaked so that the time the option appears is random(say, at some point during a 3-4 turn time frame, not tied to turn changes) you'd maybe get a chance or two to try and escape. Why random? Well, maybe it takes more time to actually investigate a low risk case and determine what actually happened and whether it's appropriate to banish the noble suspected of it.
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One of the issues is how banishment are handled. It's actually one of those few things in the game where the turn junkies get the upper hand.
If the banishment option for infiltrators captured in low risk operations was tweaked so that the time the option appears is random(say, at some point during a 3-4 turn time frame, not tied to turn changes) you'd maybe get a chance or two to try and escape. Why random? Well, maybe it takes more time to actually investigate a low risk case and determine what actually happened and whether it's appropriate to banish the noble suspected of it.
I dunno...I think that might cause more problems than it's worth.
What I'd really prefer to do is remove the click-war aspect altogether.
OK, here's a somewhat crazy, chocolate-fueled idea for rebalancing prison, bans, and executions:
- Within the first 2 days of prison, the Judge has the ability to rescind ransom. That is, state that he'll no longer accept any ransom for this prisoner, and he'll have to stay the entire time. This gives the Judge as much of an honour/prestige hit as executing the prisoner.
- If the Judge does not rescind the ransom, he cannot steal gold or execute (or ban? not sure) a prisoner on the third day, unless the prisoner has explicitly acknowledged the ransom and declined to pay it at that time. (Prisoners on the third day will be given only a pair of links, Pay Ransom or Decline Ransom, and an explanation that they'll still be able to pay the ransom on subsequent days.)
- If the Judge does rescind the ransom, the prisoner will have significantly increased chances of escape, including an increased chance of escape at execution.
- If the Judge's honour is too low, the "rescind ransom" option will no longer be available (or possibly will cause him to instantly lose his position), as the act will simply be seen as too low for him to be able to retain his Judgeship after doing it.
- When there is no Judge, the escape chances will also be increased.
This puts a significant, but double-edged power in the Judge's hands, and makes honour really matter for a Judge. However, if the Judge chooses not to employ this power, the prisoner has a guarantee that he will be able to pay the ransom on the third day without threat of execution—assuming he has enough money.
What do you think? Does this seem balanced, from both sides?
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If neither acts within the two day period, then default to "judge does not rescind ransom, prisoner declines to pay ransom".
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If neither acts within the two day period, then default to "judge does not rescind ransom, prisoner declines to pay ransom".
Well, yes; that's how it acts now, so I figured that would be assumed as the default. ;)
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surely if ban/execute/escape, etc, are resolved at the turn change after link clicked instead of at the moment link is clicked, you'll get rid of the click war.
then you deal with balance between judge/infil
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surely if ban/execute/escape, etc, are resolved at the turn change after link clicked instead of at the moment link is clicked, you'll get rid of the click war.
So if the Judge clicks "execute" and the infiltrator clicks "ransom" or "escape" during the same turn...what then?
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So if the Judge clicks "execute" and the infiltrator clicks "ransom" or "escape" during the same turn...what then?
Assuming we're trying to avoid the click war...perhaps the chance to escape while being executed gets a small boost?
And the execution doesn't take place until dawn or noon.
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well.. for escape it's "easy".. the game decides whether he manages to escape... executes would bring extra guards along... basically altering the odds. so if he escapes, then he escapes. if he doesn't, he gets the chop. no auto-escape unlike heroes, right?
no escape + no execute - nothing happens.
no escape + execute - worst odds
escape + execute - bad odds
escape + no execute - better odds
obviously, there's still a problem.. i'm thinking there should be a message sent to the guy waiting to get the chop. "your execution has been announced" or some such... which then brings up the issue of execution being clicked last minute before turn change... so you can make it into a 2 turn thing.. so execution is carried out at the turn after.
obviously there would still be a early turn escapist vs late turn announcer thing.. but 3-4 turn execution might be a bit too long.
how many times can an infil try to escape in a turn now? resolution at turn change will limit that to one per turn.. so you can alter odds for it accordingly
as for ransom, can be like what you suggested so they can't both happen at the same time.
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Hang on, infiltrators have the auto-escape option increased. Heroes do not. Infiltrators and heroes both have an increased chance for the manual escape option though.
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then just adjust accordingly... multi-turn execution can apply to all classes
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Executions work just fine the way it is right now. Infiltrators already have a good chance to auto-escape when the Judge tries to execute them. (Remember that you only see the results of executions that were successful.) Deportation is a slap on the wrist. Ban is like hitting your wrist with a feather.
None of the other classes are effective until they "train up". Warriors will not win any tournaments with low swordsmanship, or be able to fight off an enemy Infiltrator. Courtiers can't raise region stats very much. Diplomats and Priests are pretty much worthless the first few weeks on the job. Why should Infiltrators get special treatment?
The only problem I can see is the click-wars between Infiltrators, knights tasked with hunting them, and Judges. Making the "patrol the streets" police option effective even after the Infiltrator has acted would help on the part of those acting against Infiltrators. I'm afraid the Infiltrator class itself is always going to attrack turn-junkies. If you stab someone early in the turn, you disable him for an entire turn. If you stab someone late in the turn, he might be disabled for only an hour.
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None of the other classes are effective until they "train up". Warriors will not win any tournaments with low swordsmanship, or be able to fight off an enemy Infiltrator. Courtiers can't raise region stats very much. Diplomats and Priests are pretty much worthless the first few weeks on the job.
That's patently ridiculous.
A warrior with no swords training can lead troops as effectively as a highly trained, multi-tournament victor. And if you go to a tournament, the worst thing that can happen when you lose is gaining only one honor, instead of three fame.
Courtiers with no skill can still work in the regions, and gain free training every turn, while still achieving something useful for themselves and the realm. The only thing that happens if they get a bad result on Survey Admin is that they get a "...Morale stays the same" instead of a "You've been captured, and risks facing execution."
A newbie priest can preach for hours on end. If he fails to sufficiently inspire the populace all that happens is that he doesn't gain followers. He does risk getting sliced and diced by the tax office guards while trying to escape a botched gold theft.
The point is that unlike any other class, an infiltrator with low skill is destined for swift capture and banishment, making him essentially useless, and opening him up to risk of execution even from a capture in a normal battle. No other class faces such a risk. It is this that makes infiltrators completely useless without the investment of significantly large amounts of gold over several months of continuous academy training. Infiltrators are also the only class that cannot effectively train in the field. Priests, courtiers, diplomats, etc. can all train risk free, and gold free, forever. Try taking a character and training his infil to 25% in the academy, then hit the field and see how long you stay alive.
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That's patently ridiculous.
A warrior with no swords training can lead troops as effectively as a highly trained, multi-tournament victor. And if you go to a tournament, the worst thing that can happen when you lose is gaining only one honor, instead of three fame.
Courtiers with no skill can still work in the regions, and gain free training every turn, while still achieving something useful for themselves and the realm. The only thing that happens if they get a bad result on Survey Admin is that they get a "...Morale stays the same" instead of a "You've been captured, and risks facing execution."
A newbie priest can preach for hours on end. If he fails to sufficiently inspire the populace all that happens is that he doesn't gain followers. He does risk getting sliced and diced by the tax office guards while trying to escape a botched gold theft.
The point is that unlike any other class, an infiltrator with low skill is destined for swift capture and banishment, making him essentially useless, and opening him up to risk of execution even from a capture in a normal battle. No other class faces such a risk. It is this that makes infiltrators completely useless without the investment of significantly large amounts of gold over several months of continuous academy training. Infiltrators are also the only class that cannot effectively train in the field. Priests, courtiers, diplomats, etc. can all train risk free, and gold free, forever. Try taking a character and training his infil to 25% in the academy, then hit the field and see how long you stay alive.
I did this, and am still alive. Mind you that is mostly cause I got deported the few times execution was a real risk. I found that damaging production was a reasonable action that carried very little chance of me getting caught. Now that my infil is up around 70% from running these little missions, I can usually manage to stab a target without incident.
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No other class can sneak past enemy armies to directly damage their production, blow up fortifications, burn food, steal gold, and force other players to skip their turns.
It's a high risk, high reward class. Just because the costs are high does not mean that they get a free pass to skip the training phase.
The only valid reason to make their training phase easier would be if nobody was surviving long enough to be good at the class. I can tell from personal, painful experience that there are plenty of maxed-skill infiltrators running around, so that's not true.
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well.. the point is that it should not be necessary to stay in the academy for months or whatever to do basic things.
it's always possible to create some low risk, low reward things to train infil, just as it's always possible to increase the cost/curve for high skill or up the difficulty with the high risk stuff.
it shouldn't be impossible for there to be different levels of guards that a judge can impose on a prisoner either.
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I did this, and am still alive. Mind you that is mostly cause I got deported the few times execution was a real risk. I found that damaging production was a reasonable action that carried very little chance of me getting caught. Now that my infil is up around 70% from running these little missions, I can usually manage to stab a target without incident.
So you're alive because of pure luck. That's reassuring.
Look, we're not trying to make infiltrators overly powerful here. Just so that they can more easily get their skills actually doing stuff instead of spending months at the academy training. Because at the moment I dare say 99% of the high skill infiltrators have gotten there through 3-4 months of academy training and a lot of gold from their realm.
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No other class can sneak past enemy armies to directly damage their production, blow up fortifications, burn food, steal gold, and force other players to skip their turns.
It's a high risk, high reward class. Just because the costs are high does not mean that they get a free pass to skip the training phase.
The only valid reason to make their training phase easier would be if nobody was surviving long enough to be good at the class. I can tell from personal, painful experience that there are plenty of maxed-skill infiltrators running around, so that's not true.
Perhaps we should lower the training time, and lower the max effect? Infiltrators are glass canons as it is, but glass canons that take a very long and boring time to create. I think it might be more enjoyable for all if some rebalancing was done.
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It's a high risk, high reward class. Just because the costs are high does not mean that they get a free pass to skip the training phase.
Which is positively /not/ what anyone is trying to do. The idea is allow them to train while doing something other than sitting at an academy. To let them actually /play/ the class, instead of play the academy for three months. We're not talking about simply removing the risk to infiltrators, and unleashing hordes of ninja-wannabes on the game.
For example, a set of ultra-low risk options that do very little damage, and only give experience to the very low skilled infiltrator. A more experienced infil could use these options, but would do very little damage, and get no experience. If you're doing something /too/ easy, it doesn't even keep your skills sharp, let alone teach you anything new. Missions such as counting taxes, burning food, road signs, etc., may benefit from this kind of thing. And maybe attacking caravans, if that ever gets implemented. Options like blowing up walls and assaulting nobles probably would not.
I envision a range of risk/reward levels that let the infil match his skill to the desired effects. More risk = more reward, both in damage done and experience gained. Don't want much risk? Then you won't do much damage, and won't get much, if any, experience. Need to do a lot of damage in a hurry? Then be prepared to take a big risk. But if it works, the payout is commensurate with the risk taken.
We're trying to add to the game here, not take away.
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So you're alive because of pure luck. That's reassuring.
Look, we're not trying to make infiltrators overly powerful here. Just so that they can more easily get their skills actually doing stuff instead of spending months at the academy training. Because at the moment I dare say 99% of the high skill infiltrators have gotten there through 3-4 months of academy training and a lot of gold from their realm.
I'm alive because in general, most Judges don't attempt to execute infiltrators, unless they are particularly good at stabbing people all the time.
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I trained my character till 40% Infiltration (High swordskill due Adventurer) and then went out into the field. Sticking to outlying regions with low risk options let me do fieldwork, using any leftover gold to train at the Academy whenever I found myself at a City with some spare time (Keeping enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison is always a good idea). As part of Fontan though, I had lots of Realms to pick from that were at war with us. I got banished pretty early by my first enemy Realm, but just stuck to other Realms Fontan was at war with from then on. Encourage your own Realm to sign Prisoner Treaties with Enemies. Normally they include a No Execution part, allowing you to operate in an enemy Realm after you've been banished relativily safely. Once I was banished from pretty much by all enemies (And not aware of any Prisoner Treaties), I jumped on a ship and sailed to another Continent and picked the Realm that was at War with the most enemies and repeated the process. Eventually, my character got executed because he was part of the Netherworld, not needing any bans to get his head chopped off.
My character wasn't the most succesful Infiltrator (Judge Micna from Westmoor can attest to that. That was some fun stuff), generally sticking to killing off militia in the latter days (I found attacking Nobles still too risky), but he did have a high Infiltration Skill and managed to survive until the moment there were no bans needed for his execution. It was my only Infiltrator I ever had, and only had moderate success, but my tips if you want to 'play it safe':
-Don't be too loyal to your Realm if you can, it allows you more freedom of movement by switching Continents etc. Join Realms at War with many others (Though this shouldn't trump RP of course!). Be careful the Realm isn't so hated you will get tortured etc. of course.
-Always keep enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison. This can give you extra chances basically.
-For training, stick to the lowest risk options (Just read the description. Even Tax Offices are a bit risky already) and only operate when guards aren't alerted in any way. Don't operate in Townsland or Cities.
-Don't operate in Realms you are banished from, unless there is a Prisoner Treaty disallowing Execution (That makes it safe enough).
This is playing it very safe and putting your survival as your number on priority, taking barely any risks to get executed. Nowadays, you can also command units as Infiltrator, but I never worked with that. That should allow you to earn yourself some Honour and Prestige and allows you to do some other things if you need time to earn some Taxes or something.
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I trained my character till 40% Infiltration (High swordskill due Adventurer) and then went out into the field. Sticking to outlying regions with low risk options let me do fieldwork, using any leftover gold to train at the Academy whenever I found myself at a City with some spare time (Keeping enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison is always a good idea). As part of Fontan though, I had lots of Realms to pick from that were at war with us. I got banished pretty early by my first enemy Realm, but just stuck to other Realms Fontan was at war with from then on. Encourage your own Realm to sign Prisoner Treaties with Enemies. Normally they include a No Execution part, allowing you to operate in an enemy Realm after you've been banished relativily safely. Once I was banished from pretty much by all enemies (And not aware of any Prisoner Treaties), I jumped on a ship and sailed to another Continent and picked the Realm that was at War with the most enemies and repeated the process. Eventually, my character got executed because he was part of the Netherworld, not needing any bans to get his head chopped off.
My character wasn't the most succesful Infiltrator (Judge Micna from Westmoor can attest to that. That was some fun stuff), generally sticking to killing off militia in the latter days (I found attacking Nobles still too risky), but he did have a high Infiltration Skill and managed to survive until the moment there were no bans needed for his execution. It was my only Infiltrator I ever had, and only had moderate success, but my tips if you want to 'play it safe':
-Don't be too loyal to your Realm if you can, it allows you more freedom of movement by switching Continents etc. Join Realms at War with many others (Though this shouldn't trump RP of course!). Be careful the Realm isn't so hated you will get tortured etc. of course.
-Always keep enough gold with you to buy your way out of Prison. This can give you extra chances basically.
-For training, stick to the lowest risk options (Just read the description. Even Tax Offices are a bit risky already) and only operate when guards aren't alerted in any way. Don't operate in Townsland or Cities.
-Don't operate in Realms you are banished from, unless there is a Prisoner Treaty disallowing Execution (That makes it safe enough).
This is playing it very safe and putting your survival as your number on priority, taking barely any risks to get executed. Nowadays, you can also command units as Infiltrator, but I never worked with that. That should allow you to earn yourself some Honour and Prestige and allows you to do some other things if you need time to earn some Taxes or something.
Now that should be on the wiki, and in the "how to be an infiltrator" thread that bedwedyr started.
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We're trying to add to the game here, not take away.
That's fine with me. My impression is that infiltrators are expensive glass cannons that take a long time to make, and people are trying to get around the "expensive" part as well as the "long time" part.
If you add low-risk, low reward options for infiltrators, then it would need to increase your skills slower than at the academy. Otherwise nobody would use the academy. (Or you can have a skill cap as you suggested.) I don't think that would address the complaint though. The complaint seems to be that the whole process is taking too long, in addition to being too risky.
Is the infiltrator class really ok as is, where it takes months of boring training to get anywhere(or in my case, not get anywhere)? Is there any way to make it less disappointing? Are even the simplest actions too high risk, thus preventing people from actually gaining their skills by doing things instead of training at the academy?
I cannot think of an alternative that would be fair to the other classes. Again, infiltrators can force me to skip my turn. That better come with some significant risk. And with the new wound system, a single successful attack can disable a noble for days.
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That's fine with me. My impression is that infiltrators are expensive glass cannons that take a long time to make, and people are trying to get around the "expensive" part as well as the "long time" part.
If you add low-risk, low reward options for infiltrators, then it would need to increase your skills slower than at the academy. Otherwise nobody would use the academy. (Or you can have a skill cap as you suggested.) I don't think that would address the complaint though. The complaint seems to be that the whole process is taking too long, in addition to being too risky.
Less required training time, less gold investment, less risk and lower damage outputs. Therefore, we cut on the long and boring process of how long it takes before an infil can actually do something without being certain of being captured, all while reducing the damage he can do to keep everything balanced.
I'd also favour changing the subclass name to "saboteur". Infiltrator suggests more ninja-like action with big booms and everything. But really, what we've been gearing towards for some time now is more towards plausible deniability, which sits in much better with small acts of sabotage than with huge missions of extreme havoc.
I cannot think of an alternative that would be fair to the other classes. Again, infiltrators can force me to skip my turn. That better come with some significant risk. And with the new wound system, a single successful attack can disable a noble for days.
Or, more often than not, your wound will do nothing but cause you to lose 2 hours or so from your time pool as you insta-heal at turn change... Tweaks to make it easier in regions without militia/allied troops and much harder in regions with a lot of both would make it both realistic and a more balanced, though, in a context where training times are cut.
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Or, more often than not, your wound will do nothing but cause you to lose 2 hours or so from your time pool as you insta-heal at turn change... Tweaks to make it easier in regions without militia/allied troops and much harder in regions with a lot of both would make it both realistic and a more balanced, though, in a context where training times are cut.
My experience is that it already is easier to stab someone when their are less militia and allied troops. Your own realms troops may or may not help you in your mission, I'm not quite decided yet. Having troops that are allied with you own realm in the region, appear to actually make it harder to complete a mission, which can be annoying. From my last 5 stabbing attempts, I think only 1 guy instant healed.
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My experience is that it already is easier to stab someone when their are less militia and allied troops. Your own realms troops may or may not help you in your mission, I'm not quite decided yet. Having troops that are allied with you own realm in the region, appear to actually make it harder to complete a mission, which can be annoying. From my last 5 stabbing attempts, I think only 1 guy instant healed.
My hunches is that it does matter, regardless of realm of affiliation (probably for coding and balance issues I guess).
Infiltrators could also become to demolition tools what traders are to caravans...
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My hunches is that it does matter, regardless of realm of affiliation (probably for coding and balance issues I guess).
Infiltrators could also become to demolition tools what traders are to caravans...
I am looking to test this soon, since the infiltrator ability to damage RC's has never been implemented so far as I know. Interestingly we have always been able to target workshops.
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I am looking to test this soon, since the infiltrator ability to damage RC's has never been implemented so far as I know. Interestingly we have always been able to target workshops.
I implemented that over a year ago now.
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It has been implemented. A few months ago Iksandros destroyed a Cthonian RC.
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It has been implemented. A few months ago Iksandros destroyed a Cthonian RC.
Snap, now it is time for the Arcaean infiltrator army to get moving, assuming we do not lose too many more to executions.
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Yeah...mind you it's really risky. And by really risky I mean my guy got critically wounded for 2 days.
But as well, I chose the max risk setting.
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Yeah...mind you it's really risky. And by really risky I mean my guy got critically wounded for 2 days.
But as well, I chose the max risk setting.
Wounded is better then captured, much much better given the feelings about Arcaean infils right now.
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No, I still got captured too.
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No, I still got captured too.
Now that really sucks, I hear the health care in prisons is not up to standard. Oh well I've gotten to the point where I don't get full hours every turn anyway, probably time for this old infiltrator to die.
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Old infiltrators aren't so bad. In fact, I think that infiltrator is the one class that is affected least by aging in terms of hours. Sure, the skill decay is bad, but as far as time goes, it's not a big deal. If you're smart you'll do only one high risk option when there is no guard activity in a region, such as assaulting a high priority target, or doing the high risk burning. Then you get out of there. An old infiltrator can still function with the one hit then leave. I think the longest any infiltrator action takes is 4 hours, so as far as we know, all characters can manage that.
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Old infiltrators aren't so bad. In fact, I think that infiltrator is the one class that is affected least by aging in terms of hours. Sure, the skill decay is bad, but as far as time goes, it's not a big deal. If you're smart you'll do only one high risk option when there is no guard activity in a region, such as assaulting a high priority target, or doing the high risk burning. Then you get out of there. An old infiltrator can still function with the one hit then leave. I think the longest any infiltrator action takes is 4 hours, so as far as we know, all characters can manage that.
The issue is when doing that action and trying to leave the region leaves you with a 2 turn move to arrive, which potentially allows the enemy to be waiting for you. A deal breaker? course not, but certainly adds to the things I need to worry about. By the way several infiltrator actions take me 5-6 hours. Pretty sure that playing with the road signs was 6 hours, since I was left with 1 hour after doing the action.
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Ah, right, travel does take 5 hours. Sabotage production takes 7. Yeah...Well, I don't use those options anyway, so that's why I forgot.
Generally, if you have no unit and high infiltration skill, you can still make it without getting captured into an enemy region, unless the enemy has a really large number camped there. In that case, either wait until your army goes in to cause a distraction (remember, this IS a team-based game) or pick better locations. As people have said before, the infiltrator game, at least after the initial screening, is a very mental game. Skill of the player is very important, and while exact risk cannot be calculated due to seemingly large variations in risk probabilities, skilled players can somewhat mitigate that risk by taking balanced actions in the correct regions.
Basically, find good positions.
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Ah, right, travel does take 5 hours. Sabotage production takes 7. Yeah...Well, I don't use those options anyway, so that's why I forgot.
Generally, if you have no unit and high infiltration skill, you can still make it without getting captured into an enemy region, unless the enemy has a really large number camped there. In that case, either wait until your army goes in to cause a distraction (remember, this IS a team-based game) or pick better locations. As people have said before, the infiltrator game, at least after the initial screening, is a very mental game. Skill of the player is very important, and while exact risk cannot be calculated due to seemingly large variations in risk probabilities, skilled players can somewhat mitigate that risk by taking balanced actions in the correct regions.
Basically, find good positions.
The problem there is picking good locations requires scouting, which further chews into my hours. My standard tactic is to attack the enemy far behind the front lines. Great for encountering relatively few enemy nobles, terrible when you need help to escape.
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You know people can't track you if you have no unit, and they can't capture you once you've begun movement. (I think the latter is true at least. I've never been captured in transit, while my status was still "Traveling")
Besides, older infiltrators must be patient. Patience is the greatest weapon in the arsenal of any infiltrator, and the older ones should definitely be expected to have it honed to a fine degree.
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Of course they can track you without a unit, you show up as a "Noble Without Unit" on both scout reports and region information. The risk is less being captured while moving, and more being captured when you arrive.
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No, I mean, contrary to a guy with a unit, you can't tell where the unitless noble's destination would be. Sometimes, it's very predictable. Don't be predictable, unless you really can't help it.
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No, I mean, contrary to a guy with a unit, you can't tell where the unitless noble's destination would be. Sometimes, it's very predictable. Don't be predictable, unless you really can't help it.
Indeed, which is generally why when I'm active the enemy try to move into every region I can reach. This is also where the two turn move problem comes into play, cause they can see me in the new region on the same turn as I am arriving. Course they have to have someone close by to make use of it, but it has certainly happened before. When your realm is constantly besieged by 4-5 Arcaean infiltrators you tend to start looking at ways to limit them.
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Or, more often than not, your wound will do nothing but cause you to lose 2 hours or so from your time pool as you insta-heal at turn change... Tweaks to make it easier in regions without militia/allied troops and much harder in regions with a lot of both would make it both realistic and a more balanced, though, in a context where training times are cut.
Maybe you should invest in better infiltrators. :) When one of my realm-mates get stabbed by an enemy infiltrator, it's usually a serious wound or worse. I think I've ever only seen one instant-heal since the new wound system was implemented. Normally the victim is out of action for about one to three days, even for young nobles who are supposed to heal quickly. If it was anything, it was a major buff for infiltrators.
Sounds like you guys want another class. One that has less risk, less training time, and less damage output to compensate.
Basically you want "infiltrators for dummies". 8)
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Indeed, which is generally why when I'm active the enemy try to move into every region I can reach. This is also where the two turn move problem comes into play, cause they can see me in the new region on the same turn as I am arriving. Course they have to have someone close by to make use of it, but it has certainly happened before. When your realm is constantly besieged by 4-5 Arcaean infiltrators you tend to start looking at ways to limit them.
If the enemy has to task three or four active knights with nothing but hunting you down, I would say you are more than pulling your fair weight for your realm.
It's all about player skill. If you know what you're doing, you can seriously hamper an enemy realm. If you don't know what you're doing, the most damage you can do is making the enemy Judge burn some honor/prestige points.
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Sounds like you guys want another class. One that has less risk, less training time, and less damage output to compensate.
Basically you want "infiltrators for dummies". 8)
Well, really, what is desired is a way to simply increase the range of risk, training time, and damage output on the lower end.
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Maybe you should invest in better infiltrators. :) When one of my realm-mates get stabbed by an enemy infiltrator, it's usually a serious wound or worse. I think I've ever only seen one instant-heal since the new wound system was implemented. Normally the victim is out of action for about one to three days, even for young nobles who are supposed to heal quickly. If it was anything, it was a major buff for infiltrators.
Sounds like you guys want another class. One that has less risk, less training time, and less damage output to compensate.
Basically you want "infiltrators for dummies". 8)
Personally, honestly, yes. Grandfather the current infils into staying as such, but don't make the class available anymore for switches. Create a new saboteur class with a bunch of low-risk options that require less training, and fine-tune into it being more of a "demolition expert" than a ninja.
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Well, really, what is desired is a way to simply increase the range of risk, training time, and damage output on the lower end.
Well...What about forgetting about "damage" for some of these low-end options? What about better scouts?
Just some examples:
"You sneak into the tent while the Marshal is out, and discover that he has Infantry Charge and Fortification Defense orders issued to his command staff"
"You observe the maneuvers of Sir Rhennthyl's troop and determine that his soldiers are marching in a box, keeping to the front, and appear braced to fight to the end"
"Carefully watching, you see that the enemy has around twenty banners, five siege engines, five caravans, and thirty healers"
"You listen in on the work of the civil servants, and discover that Lantzas is subject to a fourteen percent tax rate, has more than sufficient estates supporting authority, not quite enough supporting production, has around fifty bushels of food in its granaries, has around a hundred gold in its tax offices, and fifty troops in its recruitment centers"
That is stuff that can be low risk, and perhaps most importantly is not a ban worthy offense. So you can train up on information gathering, and even if you get caught, they can't ban you for asking a few questions (yes, I'm aware that in the real world you could, but for game purposes this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be bannable).
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Well...What about forgetting about "damage" for some of these low-end options? What about better scouts?
Just some examples:
"You sneak into the tent while the Marshal is out, and discover that he has Infantry Charge and Fortification Defense orders issued to his command staff"
"You observe the maneuvers of Sir Rhennthyl's troop and determine that his soldiers are marching in a box, keeping to the front, and appear braced to fight to the end"
"Carefully watching, you see that the enemy has around twenty banners, five siege engines, five caravans, and thirty healers"
"You listen in on the work of the civil servants, and discover that Lantzas is subject to a fourteen percent tax rate, has more than sufficient estates supporting authority, not quite enough supporting production, has around fifty bushels of food in its granaries, has around a hundred gold in its tax offices, and fifty troops in its recruitment centers"
That is stuff that can be low risk, and perhaps most importantly is not a ban worthy offense. So you can train up on information gathering, and even if you get caught, they can't ban you for asking a few questions (yes, I'm aware that in the real world you could, but for game purposes this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be bannable).
I haven't read this entire thread, but this kind of thing sounds like a really cool/good/fun idea.
It would also help tie infiltrators into the realm at large a little more as well, instead of being virtual outcasts who everyone sometimes forgets exists until the Judge is having to explain away some failed assassination attempt.
Useful, but not overpowered information that helps out the realm and gives the infiltrator a sense of helping out and accomplishment in a way that is low-risk and also trains their skills. I like.
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I haven't read this entire thread, but this kind of thing sounds like a really cool/good/fun idea.
It would also help tie infiltrators into the realm at large a little more as well, instead of being virtual outcasts who everyone sometimes forgets exists until the Judge is having to explain away some failed assassination attempt.
Useful, but not overpowered information that helps out the realm and gives the infiltrator a sense of helping out and accomplishment in a way that is low-risk and also trains their skills. I like.
Playing with road signs is something like this. I have managed to delay enough troops to make what would have been close battles, or battles where we were slightly outnumbers battles that actually favoured us. Most of our other skills are still of great benefit, but less directly linked to the armies. Massive production losses from a co-ordinates group of infiltrators can really slow down a war machine for example.
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I'm fine with lower risk training options, but they have to train slower than academies, or stop giving you skill training after you hit some low skill cap.
Otherwise no infiltrator would ever spend money on academies, which is supposed to be the fastest way to train skills for most nobles.
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I'm fine with lower risk training options, but they have to train slower than academies, or stop giving you skill training after you hit some low skill cap.
Otherwise no infiltrator would ever spend money on academies, which is supposed to be the fastest way to train skills for most nobles.
Why is not spending money on academy a bad thing? Not like it's some exceptionally fun activity. They were a stop cap feature introduced because infiltrator skill increase against friendly realms was scrapped.
Besides, if they ever want to ensure their stabbings are more successful they will need to train their sword fighting skill anyway.
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I'm fine with lower risk training options, but they have to train slower than academies, or stop giving you skill training after you hit some low skill cap.
One of the ideas I proposed was exactly that. Low risk/low reward missions would be just that: Low reward. And experience gain is one of those rewards. If the mission you are taking on is too easy, you get no experience from it. You can only improve by doing progressively harder and harder things.
Otherwise no infiltrator would ever spend money on academies, which is supposed to be the fastest way to train skills for most nobles.
It still would be faster, and 100% risk-free. Provided you have enough gold to spend.
But even discounting that, what would be so bad about infiltrators not having to spend huge blocks of time at the academy? Is being bored and useless for two or three months viewed as some sort of infiltrator's Rite of Passage, or indoctrination ritual?
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But even discounting that, what would be so bad about infiltrators not having to spend huge blocks of time at the academy? Is being bored and useless for two or three months viewed as some sort of infiltrator's Rite of Passage, or indoctrination ritual?
Who says that these large blocks of time are necessary. If one has prepared your character properly before starting down the infiltrator path, you can spend more time in the field than at the academy. I have found mixing field work with academy training seems to make the training go faster. And even a very inexperienced infiltrator properly prepared can become a major nusance for his opponents.
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If some option allows infiltrators to bypass the academy altogether (because it is always strictly superior to academy training), then it's a buff for that class.
My claim is that the classes are balanced just fine right now. To make things fair again, you would have to add options that allow every other class to train up their skills faster than at the academy. Even if they take little to no risk, diplomats and priests are useless the first few weeks.
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If some option allows infiltrators to bypass the academy altogether (because it is always strictly superior to academy training), then it's a buff for that class.
My claim is that the classes are balanced just fine right now. To make things fair again, you would have to add options that allow every other class to train up their skills faster than at the academy. Even if they take little to no risk, diplomats and priests are useless the first few weeks.
Infil risk is inherently risky as diplomat's is safe. Priests, however, totally depend on the context in which they operate.
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.... people use academy when they can just fight/preach/whatever diplo thingy??
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.... people use academy when they can just fight/preach/whatever diplo thingy??
Getting 10%-20% in oratory before starting preaching or diplo work seems to increase the rate at which your skill increases from normal actions. I assume that because the training allows you to be successful more often. My experience is that getting that first little skill boost without the academy is slow going.
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Getting 10%-20% in oratory before starting preaching or diplo work seems to increase the rate at which your skill increases from normal actions. I assume that because the training allows you to be successful more often. My experience is that getting that first little skill boost without the academy is slow going.
And some priests don't have anywhere safe to practice either. Usually I recommend not wasting gold on the academy, but if every preaching results in wounds, then you are better off using gold then being mobbed all the time.
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Nooo, never ever waste gold on training oratory unless you absolutely are against being a diplomat.
It doesn't matter your main class, as long as you are a diplomat, you do not need to spend any gold on getting your Oratory skill above 80%. You just need either a region you like, or a ton of treaties, and some patience.
Oh yeah, did I mention patience? A few years ago, more than two players one separate occasions told me that BM is a game of patience. And possibly repetition.
You want to be the best? Deal with the boring early stages. It gets easier, faster, and better after the first few hurdles. Really.
I had a character start as inexperienced, 5% oratory. At this point, she has all priest options, all diplomatic options. With the best result in praising for 4 hours, she at one point raised 5 loyalty. This all occurred recently after only about two months.
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Nooo, never ever waste gold on training oratory unless you absolutely are against being a diplomat.
It doesn't matter your main class, as long as you are a diplomat, you do not need to spend any gold on getting your Oratory skill above 80%. You just need either a region you like, or a ton of treaties, and some patience.
Oh yeah, did I mention patience? A few years ago, more than two players one separate occasions told me that BM is a game of patience. And possibly repetition.
You want to be the best? Deal with the boring early stages. It gets easier, faster, and better after the first few hurdles. Really.
I had a character start as inexperienced, 5% oratory. At this point, she has all priest options, all diplomatic options. With the best result in praising for 4 hours, she at one point raised 5 loyalty. This all occurred recently after only about two months.
Sure, or you could spend about 50 gold and shave a month or two off the process. The fact is training at the academy early gives you rapid skill gain, that gets you to the point were further skill gain from actually preforming your task is a much better prospect. That first 5-10% seems to be damn slow to happen out in the field.
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Sure, or you could spend about 50 gold and shave a month or two off the process. The fact is training at the academy early gives you rapid skill gain, that gets you to the point were further skill gain from actually preforming your task is a much better prospect. That first 5-10% seems to be damn slow to happen out in the field.
How can you shave 2 months off of a 2 month process? It only took me about 2 months to get my atamara priest over 80%, I think.
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I have an infiltrator on Atamara and yes I trained her in the academy for quite some time. I wouldn't care if this "training window" before you have a skill you dare using would be shorter but please don't do it by implenting actions that are no risk.
If you shy away from risk this class is not for you. It is dangerous and it is supposed to be. I have an infil skill of around 70 and did some damage in the last weeks and months but I enjoyed the possibility of being caught. It's one of the core feelings that makes the infil class so attractive to me.
More risk on the other hand is making me uneasy. The risk when assaulting someone for example is high enough as it is and don't let me get started about the options in the tax office. I heard it's riskier than assault and in fact it brought me directly into jail after trying it once and only counting gold in a region with no units or militia whatsoever.
I believe it was Golden Panda who said that the class is fine as it is and I agree. Finding a way to erase some of the time at the academy in favor of direct action in the field would be nice but there is a very small limit at least I would be comfortable with concerning major changes to fix a "minor" problem.
On a side note. Imagine what happens when it gets "easy" to become an infil.
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On a side note. Imagine what happens when it gets "easy" to become an infil.
Infils cease being awesome deadly ninjas by balancing as Tom keeps saying they aren't meant to be?
Infils, as it is, are like superman in a way. They "hide" in godawful "disguise" all day long until their needs are needed, then they slip out and go do their awesome thing.
The last changes to infils didn't stop them from being ninjas. They are now just part-time ninjas instead. A complete new class as "demolition specialist" would be more appropriate, one with a smaller learning curve and reduced power. That's how I'd have it, with current infils grand-fathered to keep the subclass.
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Infils cease being awesome deadly ninjas by balancing as Tom keeps saying they aren't meant to be?
Infils, as it is, are like superman in a way. They "hide" in godawful "disguise" all day long until their needs are needed, then they slip out and go do their awesome thing.
The last changes to infils didn't stop them from being ninjas. They are now just part-time ninjas instead. A complete new class as "demolition specialist" would be more appropriate, one with a smaller learning curve and reduced power. That's how I'd have it, with current infils grand-fathered to keep the subclass.
Considering how many VERY good infils have recently been captured and killed on FEI, I have trouble believing they are ninja's or over powered. My infil with 80% + skill got captured trying the lowest risk RC sabotage mission, quite a surprise I tell you.
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Can you avoid death as an infil by simply never going into a realm you're banned from? Or emigrating whenever you have too many bans on you and coming back a couple of weeks later?
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Can you avoid death as an infil by simply never going into a realm you're banned from? Or emigrating whenever you have too many bans on you and coming back a couple of weeks later?
Yes.
Considering how many VERY good infils have recently been captured and killed on FEI, I have trouble believing they are ninja's or over powered. My infil with 80% + skill got captured trying the lowest risk RC sabotage mission, quite a surprise I tell you.
It's a gamble. Even if you have good odds of success, you can lose. That being said, the damage you do, compared to what anyone else can do, is epic.
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Yes.
It's a gamble. Even if you have good odds of success, you can lose. That being said, the damage you do, compared to what anyone else can do, is epic.
I've rarely found that the impact of a single infiltrator lives up to the hype.
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Can you avoid death as an infil by simply never going into a realm you're banned from? Or emigrating whenever you have too many bans on you and coming back a couple of weeks later?
No to the first. You can still get caught and executed if you try to assassinate a noble in an invading army, as a for instance.
Emigrating is indeed possible. I know of a few infil-heavy families that just trade continents every so often. Plays hell with your H/P, though, and if you go too low you hit outlaw status and can be executed without a ban.
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Concerning how prisons work I think there isn't much wrong with how things work now.
But perhaps it should be possible to ban anyone ending up in your prison.
If someone breaks your law repeatedly and its in your realms culture considered a serious crime, you should be able to execute him.
On infils i think it certainly is fun to put a sort of newbie layer into this class or perhaps even the others where you have the option to do these low risk low effect missions to learn the tricks while playing the game instead of siting in a city for months hiting the same button.
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No to the first. You can still get caught and executed if you try to assassinate a noble in an invading army, as a for instance.
Emigrating is indeed possible. I know of a few infil-heavy families that just trade continents every so often. Plays hell with your H/P, though, and if you go too low you hit outlaw status and can be executed without a ban.
Actually...Emigrating when you have 0 honour increases your H, above the point of outlaw status. Case in point: Iksandros with 0 H emigrated to Colonies from FEI. Gained 6 H upon arrival.
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If someone breaks your law repeatedly and its in your realms culture considered a serious crime, you should be able to execute him.
You already can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for committing a crime.
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You already can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for committing a crime.
Correction: you can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for doing something the game considers to be a crime. If someone ends up in prison for attacking your military forces, you can't ban them, can you? Even though Keplerstan has passed a law that says that attacking Keplerstan is a crime punishable by death?
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Correction: you can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for doing something the game considers to be a crime. If someone ends up in prison for attacking your military forces, you can't ban them, can you? Even though Keplerstan has passed a law that says that attacking Keplerstan is a crime punishable by death?
Well, yes. But that's a game play restriction to keep the game from being Not Fun.
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I've rarely found that the impact of a single infiltrator lives up to the hype.
You haven't seen enough good infils, then.
Hell, I've had infils who were pretty lousy by mosts' standards and still blew away hundreds of bushels of food a day. Get caught? Meh, attack another realm. No more realms left to attack? Move to another continent, resume.
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An infiltrator who intends do have a meaningful impact needs to do more than just deal lots of damage. You need to do the right damage, at the right time, to the right people. When you get it right, a single knife thrust can do more damage to a realm than burning every bushel of food in it.
Just ask Ohnar West.
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An infiltrator who intends do have a meaningful impact needs to do more than just deal lots of damage. You need to do the right damage, at the right time, to the right people. When you get it right, a single knife thrust can do more damage to a realm than burning every bushel of food in it.
Just ask Ohnar West.
Meh, Ohnar West still has 4 duchies, so I consider they are doing pretty good. Whatever was done to them obviously wasn't meaningful enough to send them spiraling down.
Burning food is quite another story. If you have an army looting the food stocks, and then you send a few infiltrators after those regions where they are hiding all the rest of the food from your troops, you can effectively deal the crippling blow to a realm that might have otherwise had enough reserves to last quite a while.
Assaults are not an infil's best option. It's risky, it's success rate is low, and it's use limited to very exceptional scenarios. Sabotage is much stronger.
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Meh, Ohnar West still has 4 duchies, so I consider they are doing pretty good.
That's because you don't play on FEI.
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That's because you don't play on FEI.
Considering, Ohnar West could be a lot worse off than where it is.
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It could? It's had three regions go rogue in the last week or so - making four total - isolating one of its cities from the rest of the realm. It has an on-paper military the second-largest (at times) on the island yet can't hold off one of the weakest realms thanks to a group of nobles who sympathise with the enemy while that enemy burns their realm to the ground around their ears. At the same time, the realm refuses to accept a peace treaty with that enemy realm while also refusing to put together a force large enough to defeat it, despite being easily capable of doing so. That seems a pretty bad situation to me.
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Yes, OW is in a very bad spot. I'm surprised it has survived this long.
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Well...What about forgetting about "damage" for some of these low-end options? What about better scouts?
Just some examples:
"You sneak into the tent while the Marshal is out, and discover that he has Infantry Charge and Fortification Defense orders issued to his command staff"
"You observe the maneuvers of Sir Rhennthyl's troop and determine that his soldiers are marching in a box, keeping to the front, and appear braced to fight to the end"
"Carefully watching, you see that the enemy has around twenty banners, five siege engines, five caravans, and thirty healers"
"You listen in on the work of the civil servants, and discover that Lantzas is subject to a fourteen percent tax rate, has more than sufficient estates supporting authority, not quite enough supporting production, has around fifty bushels of food in its granaries, has around a hundred gold in its tax offices, and fifty troops in its recruitment centers"
That is stuff that can be low risk, and perhaps most importantly is not a ban worthy offense. So you can train up on information gathering, and even if you get caught, they can't ban you for asking a few questions (yes, I'm aware that in the real world you could, but for game purposes this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be bannable).
I play my infiltrators as spies more than assassins/saboteurs so I really like this idea.
A few other options I think might add to the game without interfering with balance:
1. expands normal scout reports with the economic info usually given to Traders;
2. spread rumours (damage to honour and/or prestige of specific characters, or reduce region control/morale);
3. cheat in duels (boost based on subterfuge skill with risk of imprisonment/ban);
4. bribe troops (undermining their morale and/or cohesion, costs gold, risk of imprisonment);
5. sabotage troops (causing equipment damage or assassinating captains);
6. steal from army/guild/religion treasuries and assassinate temple guards (risk of imprisonment);
7. determine membership of guilds/religions/armies;
8. incite banditry (undermine realm region control and food/commodity production, costs gold);
9. can recruit the same way a hero does (but costs gold);
A. change chance of success for infil actions when commanding a unit.
These would all be much more in keeping with the idea of infiltrators as spymasters and mos
I can also see potential for a new "irregulars" unit mode (possibly mandatory for infiltrators, like police for diplomats) which might include some or all of the following features:
a. improves chances of evading combat;
b. boosts travel speed;
c. always counts as dug in when stationary;
d. greatly improved melee in skirmish formation;
e. reduced melee in line/box/wedge formations;
f. defensive CS boost in battle based on region terrain;
g. improved mobility and fewer casualties when retreating;
h. boost to morale/cohesion for looting and battlefield foraging;
i. reduced honour from battles but higher prestige;
j. lower chance of the character being captured.
Aside from giving infiltrators a distinct battlefield role irregulars would open up interesting new tactical possibilities, especially with advanced battlefield deployments such as Delay & Wound.
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One more I just thought of:
* Find out the details of treaties that another realm has signed. Available in the other realm's capital only? Or maybe any city/stronghold? Anyone can see the text of treaties in their own realm, so it's not like this is "sooper sekrit" information. It's at least semi-public.
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Oh, and I'm personally not too fond of the "irregulars" idea. We've been trying to get rid of the "infiltrator as ninja" concept. I'd hate to start up the "infiltrator as seal team leader" idea.
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Oh, and I'm personally not too fond of the "irregulars" idea. We've been trying to get rid of the "infiltrator as ninja" concept. I'd hate to start up the "infiltrator as seal team leader" idea.
"Infiltrators are restricted in the amount of troops they can recruit. They cannot recruit anything except special forces. In addition, troops led by infiltrators will only fight if they are alone (i.e. no allies on the field) and the server time is between sunset and sunrise."
I dunno... would it really be so bad? :P
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"Infiltrators are restricted in the amount of troops they can recruit. They cannot recruit anything except special forces. In addition, troops led by infiltrators will only fight if they are alone (i.e. no allies on the field) and the server time is between sunset and sunrise."
I dunno... would it really be so bad? :P
It would be completely against SMA. We're not Robin Hood.
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If we're changing infiltrators into spymasters (which I think is an excellent idea, and Tom quite liked it as well) as part of the plan to create plausible deniability then having them use different troops from everyone else seems contradictory.
Tom does like the spymaster concept, and it neatly dovetails into another idea he had recently.
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It would be completely against SMA. We're not Robin Hood.
Well, leaving aside the "joking" implied by ':P' and the fact that the only SMA island has far fewer infiltrators than ravenous hordes of undead... I kind of like the idea of unit restrictions/bonuses for infiltrators. I think it would add a little fun at the start of the fight&flight insertion that I see more than a few infiltrators using. (By that I'm referring to the infiltrators that cover up their movement into an enemy realm by moving with a main army, getting their unit killed, and then moving on to do their dirty deeds).
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If we're changing infiltrators into spymasters (which I think is an excellent idea, and Tom quite liked it as well) as part of the plan to create plausible deniability then having them use different troops from everyone else seems contradictory.
Tom does like the spymaster concept, and it neatly dovetails into another idea he had recently.
Make two branches of Infiltrator then?
Assassin and Spymaster.
The branch chosen will unlock new options. The Spymaster would gain alle the before mentioned spy skills(Spy on army formations end so forth) while the Assassin might gain new ways to harm nobles (poision food, cut horse stirrup, sabotage balcony railings, etc.). There should also be an option to harm Para (stab healer, torch banner, sabotage cart, etc.) although this should perhaps be shared by both branch classes.
Amongst these new options several would be a lot less risk but also likely to do less harm. Forex. "cut horse stirrup" would be easy to do but in most cases only result in bruised pride for the target while worst case being able to lightly wound. Chance of being spotted would be the biggest risk, while being captured closer to nothing. Chance of gaining infiltration skill this way would be low but there would be a small chance and thus newbie Infils could run around and train in this most amusing RP manner rather than sit in the academy 24/7.
By doing two branches Infils also become a lot more interesting to play with a longer carreer path and a chosen focus. Some would no doubt prefer the, perhaps slightly safer path, of a Spymaster and provide their realm with invaluable information. Others again will be more likely to opt for the Assassins way. There could be a minor formula edit as well on different ops where the Assassin branch is depending more on Swordskill for success on its operations and the Spymaster relies more on Infiltration skill.
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Still thing would be to kill your oponent.
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If we're changing infiltrators into spymasters (which I think is an excellent idea, and Tom quite liked it as well) as part of the plan to create plausible deniability then having them use different troops from everyone else seems contradictory.
Tom does like the spymaster concept, and it neatly dovetails into another idea he had recently.
Irregular would be a mode just like Regular Army or Vanguard, so that shouldn't interfere with plausible deniability, whereas a restriction to Special Forces would. Admittedly Special Forces would probably work quite well as Irregulars but that would be a decision for the player to make.
One thing it's definitely not intended to be though is a means of turning infiltrators into Rambo-like characters, more the sort of partisan and guerrilla leaders which every age has thrown up.
However I'd be happy with the existing command options for infiltrators if other aspects of the spymaster potential were beefed up :)
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Sort of Infiltrators as Che?
I can kinda get behind that, though I don't know of too many historical examplars I suppose no-one checks the motivations of raubitters.
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Nobles and Infils simply do not mix in my mind. Sneak into a vault to rob it? Burn food without being noticed? Stab someone when he sleeps? It looks way too much like a commoner's job.
The problem is that making the adventurers infiltrators, even if much poorer ones, would change a lot the dynamic of the game. It would be interesting, in a way, for it would cost them much more to raise their skills by themselves, and a noble could fund them, but it would be an expensive bet since if he gets caught doing infil job he gets auto-hanged. And it should be only experienced advies to avoid infil spam? Meh, still doesn't sound good enough.
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Nobles and Infils simply do not mix in my mind. Sneak into a vault to rob it? Burn food without being noticed? Stab someone when he sleeps? It looks way too much like a commoner's job.
The problem is that making the adventurers infiltrators, even if much poorer ones, would change a lot the dynamic of the game. It would be interesting, in a way, for it would cost them much more to raise their skills by themselves, and a noble could fund them, but it would be an expensive bet since if he gets caught doing infil job he gets auto-hanged. And it should be only experienced advies to avoid infil spam? Meh, still doesn't sound good enough.
I think a better solution would be to turn infiltrators into nobles who hire NPC assassins and thieves to do their dirty work, which is far more realistic. However, this would mean that all those infils with 80%+ SFing are basically useless now. allowing advies to turn into infiltrators would be cool as well, but would presumably be both too much effort as well as against the spirit of the game. I refuse to make any of my characters infils because it just seems so out of place.
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I think a better solution would be to turn infiltrators into nobles who hire NPC assassins and thieves to do their dirty work, which is far more realistic. However, this would mean that all those infils with 80%+ SFing are basically useless now. allowing advies to turn into infiltrators would be cool as well, but would presumably be both too much effort as well as against the spirit of the game. I refuse to make any of my characters infils because it just seems so out of place.
Or... make them demolition experts, with more focus on the new explosives than on sword fighting. ;)
I indeed don't see the noble going off in the night to stab someone, but marching into a warehouse, escorted by his unit, to set up these magic powder devices to blow the whole thing up? Yea, I could see that.
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Or... make them demolition experts, with more focus on the new explosives than on sword fighting. ;)
I indeed don't see the noble going off in the night to stab someone, but marching into a warehouse, escorted by his unit, to set up these magic powder devices to blow the whole thing up? Yea, I could see that.
Makes sense and blends with leading SF units.
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all those infils with 80%+ SFing
Makes sense and blends with leading SF units.
Just to clarify... there is no such thing as a SF skill, and demolition tools have no relation to SF units, right?
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Just to clarify... there is no such thing as a SF skill, and demolition tools have no relation to SF units, right?
That's SwordFighting skill ;)
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Just to clarify... there is no such thing as a SF skill, and demolition tools have no relation to SF units, right?
Nope, the idea would be to have that happen.
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That's SwordFighting skill ;)
:-[ I feel dumb now....
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Nobles and Infils simply do not mix in my mind. Sneak into a vault to rob it? Burn food without being noticed? Stab someone when he sleeps? It looks way too much like a commoner's job.
The problem is that making the adventurers infiltrators, even if much poorer ones, would change a lot the dynamic of the game. It would be interesting, in a way, for it would cost them much more to raise their skills by themselves, and a noble could fund them, but it would be an expensive bet since if he gets caught doing infil job he gets auto-hanged. And it should be only experienced advies to avoid infil spam? Meh, still doesn't sound good enough.
Three entire games later, and poor Ezio Auditorre da Firenze still gets no respect, huh?