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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: dustole on February 25, 2016, 03:45:36 AM
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Militia is ruining this game! Just my personal opinion. I believe it should be nerfed. Cost more gold for upkeep and eating more food would be a good start if we aren't going to place some limitations on them.
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I've got some interesting long-term ideas for how to radically change how cities are garrisoned, but they're not something that can be implemented quickly—or piecemeal.
The problem with militia, as I see it, is that it is too similar to mobile troops. I'm not entirely sure what the best fix is, but I definitely recognize that there are some problems with how militia works now.
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I've been saying this for ages.
Some thought it would get resolved with increased noble density but it won't for awhile at this pace.
I see following problems for militias:
1) They are not that expensive to maintain. Even with 15k militia, you usually pay only 1k gold per week these days. If your city is as large as Oligarch or Perdan and it is your only city, you can garrison 45k CS or so if you give up your income. That would cost 3k or so. Oligarch - if it is your only region - can generate roughly 4k income. Even with 45k CS militia, you can still generate 1k income. So techinically, you can garrison 60k CS. How on earth are you supposed to break a city that has 60k CS and 15k CS mobile? This case is obviously an outlier but even for a small city that can only generate 15k CS, you are already running into a problem. How many realms can field an army large enough to siege a city that has 10k militia - which most cities can actually support - plus your enemy's mobile CS?
2) I think there are several things that can be done
-If upkeep will not be changed - militia's CS needs to be reduced significantly to force people to recruit more to get the same CS
-If upkeep can be changed - it needs to be significantly more expensive. I think it will be a good solution to make militia upkeep or recruit cost to go up exponentially. For example, keeping 5k CS costs 500 gold a week but 10k CS costs 2k gold while 20k costs 4k gold to maintain per week so people can keep them for a short time but they can't keep them indefinitely.
-Increased food consumption
-Negative effect on your city for having too many militia - maybe strongholds can be exempted from this giving something to differentiate them from cities even more.
-Having multiple small militia units vs having large militia units: Not sure if something should be done about this.
-Militias unit type fixed to police only unless they are stationed in stronghold
3) Conclusion - I think militias are currently in an awkward spot. Lack of players is definitely a huge contributing factor as often attacks can't field enough to overcome militias. Until they get completely overhauled, I think there should be tweaks to help people resolve this issue.
P.S : I think someone suggested number of militia to be based on your army's CS. Only being allowed to recruit a portion of your total mobile CS or something.
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I think militia should have negative effects proportional to region density and type. Militiamen with guaranteed income and nothing to do would commit crimes and gamble and drink, no? The effects are magnified in a city, where they can gamble, harass peasants, etc, vs woodlands where they would be more isolated, versus a stronghold where they would be basically confined to the garrisons and the walls.
Make the negative effect a decrease in all stats at varying rates according to some set of parameters. Attempting to make militia a gold sink won't work with current gold levels.
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How about militia limiting max stats?
Like having militia reserves some of your stats.
ex)
Production 70/100 (30 reserved due to militia)
Morale 70/100 (30 reserved due to militia)
And as you recruit more, it reserves more %.
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Yes exactly: depending on region type they could even increase morale and loyalty and maybe even max tax rate, but too much will always be a net negative.
Maybe base it in number of men rather than CS, do you pick cheap militia to maximize tax rate and gold, or pay the extra to actually defend?
Most of all, I'd say milita in a city will always decrease stats, while a stronghold sees no negatives.
Oh: count militia against region population? Would stop piling militia in rurals.
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Or making militia limit based on your total population maybe?
Having more than let's say 1% of your total population will put a cap on production across the realm?
After all you are draining manpower to man your regions. That way, killing peasants is a very viable strategy to counter militia.
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Lol yes we agreed, I still think it would need to be tweaked based on factors like population density and region type, but these should all be used to create a dynamic cap on militia.
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I have always hated militia.
Just put cap that you cant have more than 5 units of militia per region.
-Jaune
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Or making militia limit based on your total population maybe?
Having more than let's say 1% of your total population will put a cap on production across the realm?
After all you are draining manpower to man your regions. That way, killing peasants is a very viable strategy to counter militia.
I actually like these suggestions, as I'm also in favor of tweaking militia. It is simply too strong and too easy atm.
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Everytime i read Militia, the names Doc Primus & Oligarch comes to mind.......
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Sounds like people are whining!
Use them and abuse them, they have actually been a pretty big constant in the game, beside of course BT get ravaged by Damions or undead or one another. Why change a good thing? I mean I enjoy killing militia sometimes more than I do stabbing a noble or council member, well almost, let's be honest if you can't break the siege you obviously are not trying the right tactic to overthrow the city or stronghold.
I mean starve them, salt the fields, kill them softly out of boredom of just sitting in the place. God I mean Titans knows that will work at some point and they will slip up or the nobles will get fed up of sitting and doing nothing. I mean seriously militia are badass with out those little ankle biters I think well wait the game would be very different and well.... It doesn't matter it's to late!
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Sounds like people are whining!
Use them and abuse them, they have actually been a pretty big constant in the game, beside of course BT get ravaged by Damions or undead or one another. Why change a good thing? I mean I enjoy killing militia sometimes more than I do stabbing a noble or council member, well almost, let's be honest if you can't break the siege you obviously are not trying the right tactic to overthrow the city or stronghold.
I mean starve them, salt the fields, kill them softly out of boredom of just sitting in the place. God I mean Titans knows that will work at some point and they will slip up or the nobles will get fed up of sitting and doing nothing. I mean seriously militia are badass with out those little ankle biters I think well wait the game would be very different and well.... It doesn't matter it's to late!
Arnor has more militia in individual rural regions than the mobiles of neighboring nations. I'm sorry, but that just isn't a healthy thing for the game. Delusional...
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For cities I'd say the militia is mostly fine. Cities should be hard to take, after all. But I agree that seeing 20,000 CS worth of militia in a rural backwater is pretty ridiculous.
Perhaps there could be a chance for every unit that it simply does not show up for the battle? Militia is basically leaderless, it wouldn't be a stretch to have some of them to get cold feet and simply not be present.
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For cities I'd say the militia is mostly fine. Cities should be hard to take, after all. But I agree that seeing 20,000 CS worth of militia in a rural backwater is pretty ridiculous.
Perhaps there could be a chance for every unit that it simply does not show up for the battle? Militia is basically leaderless, it wouldn't be a stretch to have some of them to get cold feet and simply not be present.
But what if the rural region has 20k+ population also (like Montijo on EC for instance)?
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But what if the rural region has 20k+ population also (like Montijo on EC for instance)?
It's still a rural. You wouldn't stick a thousand men to a single region to guard a few farms and a bunch of wheat fields.
We could make it really simple and tie militia to fortifications and/or populations. Having no walls would mean you can only place a small number of militia troops, and then it would scale up from there. Likewise, a city of under 10,000 people would be ill-equipped to handle 2,000 militia troops for a prolonged period of time, but a city of 100,000 would be able to sustain the same number for quite some time.
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The simplest method of "fixing" militia that I can think of is making them count toward population when calculating how much food is consumed in the region per turn (with the possibility of going over the regions max pop.). Then it becomes a matter of balance, as even a region that normally produces a surplus will eventually run into a deficit if enough militia is piled in.
Personally, I never saw a problem with militia. Skilled infiltrator attacks, starvation tactics, and simple smashing with mobile troops make them more a speed bump than a threat.
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Militia already eat food. Three times what civilian peasants eat, I believe, though I could be misremembering the precise multiplier.
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Also, if the region's income cannot support their cost, militia desert.
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The simplest method of "fixing" militia that I can think of is making them count toward population when calculating how much food is consumed in the region per turn (with the possibility of going over the regions max pop.). Then it becomes a matter of balance, as even a region that normally produces a surplus will eventually run into a deficit if enough militia is piled in.
Personally, I never saw a problem with militia. Skilled infiltrator attacks, starvation tactics, and simple smashing with mobile troops make them more a speed bump than a threat.
You obviously haven't dealt with the amount of militia we're talking about. The fact that you even mention smashing with mobile troops shows how ignorant you are on the subject. Most realms simply don't have the nobles to support an army of that size. A decent army for a small to mid size realm these days is 15k CS, 20k if you're lucky enough to have extremely good regions. Even Sirion at the start of its war with Oligarch was only supporting a mobile of around 35k I think, and when 20k CS of militia is put into rural regions, let alone the townslands and cities where there are fortifications, trying to brute force your way through them just leads to the enemy mobile cleaning up what's left of your army.
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You obviously haven't dealt with the amount of militia we're talking about. The fact that you even mention smashing with mobile troops shows how ignorant you are on the subject. Most realms simply don't have the nobles to support an army of that size. A decent army for a small to mid size realm these days is 15k CS, 20k if you're lucky enough to have extremely good regions. Even Sirion at the start of its war with Oligarch was only supporting a mobile of around 35k I think, and when 20k CS of militia is put into rural regions, let alone the townslands and cities where there are fortifications, trying to brute force your way through them just leads to the enemy mobile cleaning up what's left of your army.
And don't forget, not everyone in that 15k or 20k CS will move. You can usually expect 70% usually. 80~90 on good days. Weekends? 50% if you are lucky.