BattleMaster Community
Toms Other Games => Black Forest => Topic started by: Tom on May 17, 2016, 07:46:48 AM
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Here are some thoughts I have about the gameplay, once you have played a few turns, let me know your thoughts:
a) taking plots is too easy at this time, especially once you play competitively (i.e. try to destroy other players).
Possible restrictions I am thinking about:
1) if there is anything on the plot, the first take action only turns it into common ground
2) buildings cannot be taken at all
3) add a "defend" action that is more powerful than take, e.g. it defends the plot you select and all adjacent plots
b) maybe creatures trampling through fields should damage them?
c) (this is pretty much decided) - Destroyed buildings and walls do not return the plot to empty, but to a new state "ruined".
This gives both better visual feedback of the events and makes rebuilding more difficult because those plots need to be cleaned first (which on the plus side will yield 0-2 wood).
d) I've always, since the original design, wanted to make gathering actions in the forest competitive
By that I mean that the more people do it, the less everyone gains. But with the current resource values that just doesn't work unless I go into fractions.
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As I said in another post, I do think that the difference between numbers of family members does have too much of an influence on things at the moment - there are not alternative tactics, if you have fewer family members, you'll lose. If somehow this could be balanced (possibly increasing the food requirements and yields from certain activities) so that having fewer actions per turn doesn't matter so much as you don't have to gather as much food, that would make it more viable.
Taking plots - perhaps only be able to take plots adjacent to the unbroken 'main' section of your own lands. As we've seen in one of the alpha games, at the moment you can end up with random scattered individual plots when both sides are trying to take everything, which could result in losing your house with nothing you can do about it (though some of the ideas mentioned in your post would cover that).
Being able to destroy things yourself would also be good - disassembling huts/fences on common land for example. Quicker way to gather resources, and a tactic to help destroy other families.
Very small chance of death when gathering in forest after x number of days?
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Unbroken is an interesting idea, but hard to define. But something like single plots (all neighbours are not yours) is possible, exception for homes or something. I will think about it. I just want to avoid making things too complicated.
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The option to abandon your current plot and set up in another house on common ground somewhere, with that one square then being your plot that you can build out from - allows a smaller family the chance to get away from an overly aggressive larger family next door.
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Following on from my previous post, what happens to a family when they lose their last plot of land? As I've just taken that in one game. Do they just live on the common and hope they can last?
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Yes, my family in that game took up home in one of the common houses. I cannot take land, but I can harvest and build on common grounds.
Maybe the solution is simply to allow you to take land next to your sleeping home?
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My impressions so far from a dozen or so test games:
After day 20, it becomes a real struggle. Monsters begin to destroy things faster than you can rebuild them. That is good, exactly as I wanted, my design goal was that games would last about a month (30 days).
The first days seem boring, but maybe that is because there are so few players at this time.
I'm thinking if maybe it would be better if there would be one plot of common land between all the player lands. Right now, you can have your hut directly at the border.
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Looking at some of the games now, I'm not sure if the order of things is correct:
Eating seems to happen before food gathered that turn is added to the supply. Also, if you don't have enough food for all family members then none of them eat? Randomly select who doesn't eat that turn maybe, with the most hungry being excluded from the randomness (so if one person didn't eat the previous day, they'd be first to eat the next day).
Damage by beasts seems to happen before repairs are done (but after building new things, or it's something else I don't understand). For example I definitely had enough resources at he start of the turn to repair my house and build a fence. Fence was destroyed the same turn, but house says that the construction project failed.
***Edit - definitely something wrong with repairing. My house had 5 damage, I didn't gather any more wood this turn (though I'm not sure what two of my family did do as they aren't listed in the events...) still have 9 wood stored and got an error that I didn't have the resources to complete the repair work...
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Or maybe repair values are costing more than the listed values?
My thoughts on how things should run (which they may, but I'm not clear):
1 - all gathering (done first thing in the morning)
2 - repairs/planting/taking
3 - building
4 - eating
5 - darkness and the beasts it brings.
(Think I covered everything that happens...)
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There may be bugs, of course.
At the moment:
* gathering happens first
* then all in-village actions, in random order
* then darkness falls and the monsters come
The most hungry peasants eat first.
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In which case, if you see my post a couple above, there's something wrong with repairing houses. I've made some notes in a couple of games I can see the issue is definitely there, in the hopes I might be able to give more info!
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Yeah, any info helps to find bugs.
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With fields being damaged when walked across, it might be useful to see how much food they will yield. At the moment, potentially you could harvest one with 1 food left, so would be better off going to the forest. I say this seeing that a field in one of my games (not my field) lost 3 food this turn and still can't be harvested. Maybe there should be a guaranteed minimum yield, or start with a higher base value (though that would then change game tactics as it would be easier to stockpile early).
An indicator for how much food is left on a field would be useful though :)
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If you hover over the field, it should say something like "growing (4)" - meaning it has 4 food left.
And after adding trampling, I changed the base value from 5 to 6.
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If you hover over the field, it should say something like "growing (4)" - meaning it has 4 food left.
Nope. Maybe in the version you're using but not in 18? (I'm pretty sure I'm on 18 due to date on file, would be useful to have the version number on the opening page somewhere (unless it's already hiding somewhere?))
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Could be. My version is quite a bit ahead of the last build, but I can't release it because some important functions are not working in this one (I changed them).
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these first games are a learning time for us...at least me. trying different things on different villages and have learned to start defending(fences) first...been a bit of a ground hog in others, taking plots...won't do that near as much in the future cause the freaks come out at night, so to speak...lol
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Yes. I am adapting gameplay to what I see happening in the games, and there will be quite a few changes in the beta. Some of them are already being put in the alpha as well.
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I'm wondering if maybe there needs to be a greater difference between some of the damages done (or benefits of stone over wood).
Stone only taking one less damage from everything, whilst it is quite hard to get any of it built, got me wondering a little.
Also, not being able to upgrade fences (due to them being damaged straight after being erected so you can only repair them (if they survived)) is a bit frustrating. Although I know the point is everyone is supposed to die.
Would you maybe be able to have semi-customisable games? Where certain options/values could be selected to be in effect for that game? (might be useful as well for the beta to see which options worked out best/most fun for all)
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One less damage is a lot, and the fact that stone is invulnerable to wolves made me go for stone walls in all games.
But yes, the whole balancing thing will be part of the beta. But it needs some full games to really figure out what works how.
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If my hut is in the corner of a plot, how do i build walls on those two edges/corner plots?
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If my hut is in the corner of a plot, how do i build walls on those two edges/corner plots?
Project a straight line from them until you find an empty plot on common land and build them there... Doesn't look as nice but does the same job.
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Project a straight line from them until you find an empty plot on common land and build them there... Doesn't look as nice but does the same job.
...meh
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...meh
Or take the plots you need from your neighbour (though this will take a couple of days to achieve...)
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I'll likely just build further out, as per the first suggestion. It's not ideal from a game structure viewpoint though imho.
Tom: Any thoughts on an overlay to be implemented? With options to see gridlines, family names, structure damage, and whether the watchtower/well is manned? As well as hunger of people? Just spinning ideas...
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I see the well now has the status of "graveyard", and I don't seem to be able to assign a villager to it. But the Watchtower has the status of building, and a villager can be assigned.
This seems to be a bug?
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I'm having a few thoughts for additional information, yes.
For the original poster: You can also build a new hut if you don't like the one you start with. There are a few reasons why having two huts might be a good thing. I've lost at least two games because I only had one hut.
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Thanks : )
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The manual says that foxes come on day 3, but I don't see any evidence that they did come. No tracks or event notifications. Or would that only be if they hit walls or chicken houses?
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The manual says that foxes come on day 3, but I don't see any evidence that they did come. No tracks or event notifications. Or would that only be if they hit walls or chicken houses?
I think the manual lists the days that creatures _can_ arrive from, not that they definitely will.
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Well, we got our wolves right on schedule at least XD One wolf damaged a whole 5 fields XD
Suggestion:
One of the queries is on how the smaller families are at a great disadvantage due to their size.
Another is people not logging in (never activating account). I suspect this may increase on steam because people are used to instant-action games. Or it may decrease because more people will be joining. In any case...
What about a game mechanic called "adoption" that can be implemented on, say, day 5 (will receive the villager on day 6)? The smaller families will get the chance to adopt a person from an inactive family for the cost of using a villager for that day, and the day after also, so they will have 6 people.
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I'm still uncertain as to whether there should be different sized starting families or not. I don't really see any benefit to starting with fewer people - yes you eat less food but it takes longer to collect resources and build/upgrade defences and I don't think that offset balances.
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The manual says that foxes come on day 3, but I don't see any evidence that they did come. No tracks or event notifications. Or would that only be if they hit walls or chicken houses?
The manual lists the earliest day that they can appear. That does not mean they are guaranteed to appear on that day.
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I'm still uncertain as to whether there should be different sized starting families or not. I don't really see any benefit to starting with fewer people - yes you eat less food but it takes longer to collect resources and build/upgrade defences and I don't think that offset balances.
This is one of the things I want to balance out during beta testing.
I like the idea of different family sizes. It just needs to be balanced properly. Maybe I can tie it to plots - the inside plots could have smaller families, the outside larger, or something.
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This is one of the things I want to balance out during beta testing.
I like the idea of different family sizes. It just needs to be balanced properly. Maybe I can tie it to plots - the inside plots could have smaller families, the outside larger, or something.
Or starting resources? At the moment this appears quite random. Could still be random but with a weighting so that smaller families get more.
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Or starting resources? At the moment this appears quite random. Could still be random but with a weighting so that smaller families get more.
It already is like that :-)
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Question 1: If you are currently staying in a hut on common land, and storing your resources in the hut, will other people be able to take them from you?
Question 2: The manual says that resources can be moved from one owned hut to another. How is this done please?
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Question 1: If you are currently staying in a hut on common land, and storing your resources in the hut, will other people be able to take them from you?
Question 2: The manual says that resources can be moved from one owned hut to another. How is this done please?
1 - yes, common houses are just that, everyone can use them.
2 - I missed that. It was a planned feature that I never added. The line will be removed in the next manual update.
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1 - yes, common houses are just that, everyone can use them.
2 - I missed that. It was a planned feature that I never added. The line will be removed in the next manual update.
So...the next logical question is - if two people are drawing on common resources from a common hut, how does the game decide who gets them? This could become important if there are more aspects of cooperation.
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So...the next logical question is - if two people are drawing on common resources from a common hut, how does the game decide who gets them? This could become important if there are more aspects of cooperation.
This is anwered in the manual, actually:
Conflicts
Actions can conflict with each other. For example, the Meier family tries to take a piece of land from its neighbours, the Schulz. However, Juergen Schulz is planting a field in that same spot in the same turn. What will happen?
The rule for resolving conflicts is: - Taking or clearing land and harvesting only succeed if no other action targets the same plot.
- Planting only succeeds if no other action, except maybe another plant action, targets the same plot.
- Building succeeds if no other action, or an identical build action, or a planting action targets the same plot.
For resource conflicts, it is important to know that forest actions (gathering wood, stone or food) are resolved before village actions (building, repair, etc.). Actions within the village are resolved in random order.
For eating, the most hungry family members will eat first (within those who have the same hunger level, the order is random).
Monsters are resolved last, after all actions by villagers, obviously (first day, then night).
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This is anwered in the manual, actually:
Conflicts
Actions can conflict with each other. For example, the Meier family tries to take a piece of land from its neighbours, the Schulz. However, Juergen Schulz is planting a field in that same spot in the same turn. What will happen?
The rule for resolving conflicts is: - Taking or clearing land and harvesting only succeed if no other action targets the same plot.
- Planting only succeeds if no other action, except maybe another plant action, targets the same plot.
- Building succeeds if no other action, or an identical build action, or a planting action targets the same plot.
For resource conflicts, it is important to know that forest actions (gathering wood, stone or food) are resolved before village actions (building, repair, etc.). Actions within the village are resolved in random order.
For eating, the most hungry family members will eat first (within those who have the same hunger level, the order is random).
Monsters are resolved last, after all actions by villagers, obviously (first day, then night).
Unfortunately it isn't - I had already checked ???
To clarify my question further (and some people may not have realised this and will find it useful): a person can claim the wood and stone stored in a hut that is built on common ground by building something that uses more wood or stone than they themselves currently have. If the only wood stored in a common hut in 1 village amounts to 6 lumber, and two people who have no wood and are gathering no wood try to build a henhouse, who will get the wood?
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Unfortunately it isn't - I had already checked ???
To clarify my question further (and some people may not have realised this and will find it useful): a person can claim the wood and stone stored in a hut that is built on common ground by building something that uses more wood or stone than they themselves currently have. If the only wood stored in a common hut in 1 village amounts to 6 lumber, and two people who have no wood and are gathering no wood try to build a henhouse, who will get the wood?
Your answer is above: Actions within the village are resolved in random order.
In other words: Lady Luck decides.
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Your answer is above: Actions within the village are resolved in random order.
In other words: Lady Luck decides.
Ok thanks :)
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I've been under the impression that buildings don't need to be manned on the first day. But I recently had a villager only gather 2 wood on the first day.
Bug?
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Just wondering what time the turns run. I thought it was on the hour, but sometimes it doesn't seem so.
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I've been under the impression that buildings don't need to be manned on the first day. But I recently had a villager only gather 2 wood on the first day.
Bug?
First day should not require them to be manned, correct.
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Just wondering what time the turns run. I thought it was on the hour, but sometimes it doesn't seem so.
A cronjob runs on the hour, but I sometimes run turns manually when I hunt a bug.
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Interesting thing that i saw today - two people tried to build a fence on the same location - the one built it and the other upgraded it. How does it decide who builds, and who upgrades?
Also, what are your thoughts on making more advanced chat?
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The 'recent things happening on this plot' text window. This is fine unless you have a few events happen that mean a scroll bar is there to view the extra - can't actually move to the box to be able to scroll down and read the rest, as soon as cursor is away from the bit that caused the box to appear, the box vanishes.
In PvP, when should attacking a building happen? I had a hut destroyed (it only had two damage the turn before and, with the issue above couldn't scroll to see how many people attacked it but my repair failed and I definitely had the resource to fix the original damage). Also, it's been previously stated that there can only be one action on any plot in a turn, but I was attacked by more than one family, both causing damage. Please clarify (I see both pro and con for this as it is right that separate families should and would be able to attack someone at the same time, but it has the potential to be abused with groups just getting rid of other families early in the game).
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Only one action PER FAMILY and plot, to clarify.
The manual states, that all plot actions are resolved in random order.
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There isn't much clarify in the market what the purpose of the different types of buying are, or how much gold/silver one will actually be spending.
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One gold coin for each purchase, I thought that's clear.
The different types make no difference, they are just where you get the Karma to buy.
How can I make this clear?
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One gold coin for each purchase, I thought that's clear.
The different types make no difference, they are just where you get the Karma to buy.
How can I make this clear?
Did you make a chance to it recently, or was I just not paying attention to it? i think I might have derped and just skimmed it without reading it properly.
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The text was changed a couple days ago. Check the new one.
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Is it just me or does the game make your graphics card go on an overdrive? The temperature started to rise pretty quickly when I started the game.
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The text was changed a couple days ago. Check the new one.
Yes, it looks a lot better now.
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Is it just me or does the game make your graphics card go on an overdrive? The temperature started to rise pretty quickly when I started the game.
I notice the same on my notebook. The reason is most likely that I've done almost no optimization so far. I'm sure there's a lot that can be done. I know a few things I want to try.
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I will wait for the optimization then. The fan spins too much for now...
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Anyone know if a partial repair is possible? Or does one need all of the resources.
Second question: is it intended that original hut on common ground cannot be attacked?
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Anyone know if a partial repair is possible? Or does one need all of the resources.
Second question: is it intended that original hut on common ground cannot be attacked?
Yes, common buildings cannot be attacked (well, tower, market and the original common hut)
Partial repairs are not possible, you need the full amount of resources.
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Thanks : )
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Do the players levels serve any purpose/are they intended to serve a purpose?
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Do the players levels serve any purpose/are they intended to serve a purpose?
Aside from satisfying you for beating out even me? ;-)
Yes, I intend to have some games restricted to players of some minimum level. I know that in all such games, experienced players sometimes want to play only with other experienced players, to have a real shot at beating the game. So there will be games where you have to be level 1 or level 3 or something to join.
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Aside from satisfying you for beating out even me? ;-)
Haha, well that is quite a satisfying point, I will admit ;D I told you I was playing quite a lot of games! ???
Yes, I intend to have some games restricted to players of some minimum level. I know that in all such games, experienced players sometimes want to play only with other experienced players, to have a real shot at beating the game. So there will be games where you have to be level 1 or level 3 or something to join.
Sounds good :)