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BattleMaster => Locals => East Island => Topic started by: GundamMerc on June 30, 2016, 07:55:48 PM
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Really? The situation would have been very good to have a go at trying to gain revenge on Perdan, but instead you choose the easy path of helping Sirion...
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Actually, I was a little caught by surprise as well. The declaration came out of no where, with no explanation offered...
again.
Is this a habit with Eastern Rulers?
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People jumping into wars that they have no business in? GOSH DARNIT CALIGUS! Oh wait... ?
I'm interested in seeing their reasoning...
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Actually, I was a little caught by surprise as well. The declaration came out of no where, with no explanation offered...
again.
Is this a habit with Eastern Rulers?
Really unfortunate that I have little time to play these days. But this is fittingly representative for the north I'm afraid and why we broke off with Oligarch in the first place. I can't say I'm much surprised tbh.
Under Garin Eponllyn would have never done this, but Eponllyn is no longer Eponllyn really.
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This DOES seem to be the post to discuss what Eponlynn has become...
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Well, considering Perdan's destroyed Eponllyn in several wars, is a complete powerhouse right on their border, and Eponllyn is a bit player now, I doubt they feel too suicidal. And considering that Garas/Oligarch left Eponllyn out to dry with Perdan out of greed for Krimml, when Sirion was cooperative with uniting with Oligarch/Eponllyn/Nivemus against Perdan. I'm not surprised if Eponllyn has decided returning the favor to Oligarch is a better target than being raped by Perdan all over again.
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You all got it wrong... you see it is because Eponllyn doesn't like having a realm run as a tyranny next door...
Sirion have tried to get anyone and everyone into this war on their side since day three, (on day one and two they were winning so thought they could go alone!)
Eponllyn is unrecogniseable lately tbh. Its sad to think they managed to relocate and grow but have now fallen to the state where they feel they need to become just another part of Sirion's northern block. It isn't a surprising situation, they have had hard times, but I am genuinely sad to see one of the few 'old' realms I would have described as politically fairly independent now sitting in a situation where they feel unable to be so any more.
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When did realms have to have a legit excuse to war one another?
All you have to state is "Me want more land, You give me more land or else..." War commences for land grab.
I don't understand, I mean we use to war sometimes just to war and see who had better strategies or more active players. Battlegroups were much more competitive than they are now.
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When did realms have to have a legit excuse to war one another?
All you have to state is "Me want more land, You give me more land or else..." War commences for land grab.
I don't understand, I mean we use to war sometimes just to war and see who had better strategies or more active players. Battlegroups were much more competitive than they are now.
Hey Blue Star, you realize that what you're saying is irrelevant, yes?
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Well, Eponllyn was crippled by Perdan's bait-and-switch 'we only want passage rights' war. How Eponllyn was treated by Perdan and Vix really broke Eponllyn's morale/spirit within the realm and exposed their hypocrisy on limited conflicts and smaller realms. And being independent when your survival is on the line with a neighbour like Perdan is suicide. Whether it was Eponllyn's war-intent or not, Oligarch did this to itself by not accepting the ceasefire with Sirion and standing up for Eponllyn against Perdan. First they came for the socialists, then they came for the unions, then they came for the jews, and when they come for you, there is no one left to stand with you because you did not stand for them. Such is where Oligarch has found itself.
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Really? The situation would have been very good to have a go at trying to gain revenge on Perdan, but instead you choose the easy path of helping Sirion...
Most of us want a "suicidal thought" Eponllyn to keep war Perdan till end of time? ???
Eponllyn is rethinking their "suicidal" thoughts of keep warring Perdan when they could not even touch Perdan, okay what should I say here? Touch Perdan's hair? Even when Eponllyn had Nivemus, they both are no match for Perdan army, nevermind Vix. Why you want pick on someone bigger size/stronger than you when you can pick on someone of almost similar size as you? ::)
Well, considering Perdan's destroyed Eponllyn in several wars, is a complete powerhouse right on their border, and Eponllyn is a bit player now, I doubt they feel too suicidal. And considering that Garas/Oligarch left Eponllyn out to dry with Perdan out of greed for Krimml, when Sirion was cooperative with uniting with Oligarch/Eponllyn/Nivemus against Perdan. I'm not surprised if Eponllyn has decided returning the favor to Oligarch is a better target than being raped by Perdan all over again.
What Vita says practically sum it all up ;)
Chamberlain, Brock already helped Catherine explained to her as much as he could.
When did realms have to have a legit excuse to war one another?
All you have to state is "Me want more land, You give me more land or else..." War commences for land grab.
I don't understand, I mean we use to war sometimes just to war and see who had better strategies or more active players. Battlegroups were much more competitive than they are now.
Yes, I hope it was easy to mention why war. Better strategies it is then. Sometimes the stories vary, depend on which sides you from.
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Well, Eponllyn was crippled by Perdan's bait-and-switch 'we only want passage rights' war. How Eponllyn was treated by Perdan and Vix really broke Eponllyn's morale/spirit within the realm and exposed their hypocrisy on limited conflicts and smaller realms. And being independent when your survival is on the line with a neighbour like Perdan is suicide. Whether it was Eponllyn's war-intent or not, Oligarch did this to itself by not accepting the ceasefire with Sirion and standing up for Eponllyn against Perdan. First they came for the socialists, then they came for the unions, then they came for the jews, and when they come for you, there is no one left to stand with you because you did not stand for them. Such is where Oligarch has found itself.
The issue is that Oligarch was holding its own, and Eponllyn has more reason to hate Sirion (who abandoned them to the Perdanese, which is odd since Perdan is Sirion's sole remaining mortal enemy) than Oligarch. Not to mention Perdan is busy fighting Xavax. Had Eponllyn joined that war instead, it would have become more balanced.
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The issue is that Oligarch was holding its own, and Eponllyn has more reason to hate Sirion (who abandoned them to the Perdanese, which is odd since Perdan is Sirion's sole remaining mortal enemy) than Oligarch. Not to mention Perdan is busy fighting Xavax. Had Eponllyn joined that war instead, it would have become more balanced.
Yay, balanced war... Without giving too much things away, I will be brief. If you notice Eponllyn Recruitment Centers and its current realm land size, do you think they can even break Perdan militia on its own? War also depend on resources. That again bring me back to my early question: Do we wish for "suicidal" Eponllyn to war Perdan?
Also your question above can only be answered by someone from Eponllyn, for only they know what they think. You think they hate Sirion, but it could be the other way round. Now enough giveaways already, let get on with the war.
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It was actually Oligarch who abandoned Eponllyn to the Perdanese, not Sirion.
What I wrote before about not standing for others ending up with no one standing for yourself. My character advocated Xavax/Fallangard to take more of a stand for Fallangard's ally and balanced that war, warning them they'd be next for Perdan, but they did not. So Eponllyn was not going to sit around being Perdan's punching bag waiting for someone to balance their war and Perdan was able to wrap things up nicely to head towards Xavax/Fallangard, who now want Eponllyn's assistance balancing the war they just exited being torn apart and don't wish for an iota more.
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Eponllyn would seal their end if they came against Perdan again. I have little doubt there is a plan to gift Eponllyn something bigger and better than they currently have by their current actions and what I say is not to criticise but a genuine sense of sadness that things have changed so badly for a realm I always admired.
As to who is to blame for helping or not helping Eponllyn, that will forever be a matter of opinion that only a few people will actually know the full truth of, it is what it is at the end of the day.
We survived Sirions first attempts at gang banging, lets hope we can survive the next.
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exposed their hypocrisy on limited conflicts and smaller realms.
Dude, do you really hate Perdan so much you are willing to make clearly untrue statements OOC?
The war was both limited in scope beforehand and smaller realms paradigm was not in any way jeopardized.
Neither do I buy the notion that Eponllyn's foreign policy is so facepalm-worthy because they were so bitterly crushed in a previous war. It was just as unfortunate way before that, which led to their recent downfall in the first place.
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The names of realms differ but the footprint is often the same, I can sympathise with Vita in that it's tough watching a principled realm turn to 'blah' I guess. Especially if you feel this was avoidable, which politically speaking at the time it seems it wasn't.
We should all take notes from Perdan... how many times that Phoenix has risen is amazing.
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Dude, do you really hate Perdan so much you are willing to make clearly untrue statements OOC?
The war was both limited in scope beforehand and smaller realms paradigm was not in any way jeopardized.
You do not know what you are talking about. The war was not limited in any scope other than words. Perdan said they wouldn't loot, or TO regions. Then they did all those things. They even told us 'we will give you back your regions after the war', then they decided to keep them anyway. So much for !@#$ing passage rights and limited wars.
No, I am not lying as you accuse. I do not hate Perdan. I helped prevent Perdan's death. We could have destroyed Perdan, never could have returned like they did, and destroyed all that years of sirion-perdanite historical rivalry. No, we tried to cooperate and do something unique and different. And then Perdan went back to the same old imperialist 'destroy anything that is not our puppet' self it has long been.
I had once wanted to play in Perdan one day. I hate the assholish behavior Perdan has exhibited to everyone since several older players have returned. I hate seeing players pushed out of the game because Perdan winning is the most important thing to these players. Perdan and Vix made a huge deal about being pro-small realms and limited conflicts, as Eponllyn had been advocating. Perdan/Vix pushed Eponllyn away to circlejerk about how awesome they were in pro-small realms and limited conflicts. And then they !@#$ing trash Eponllyn because Perdan can never let Eponllyn have a homeland, it always has to keep coming after Eponllyn to destroy it, time after time...Eponllyn's entire realm history is basically a list of wars by Perdan or Perdan's puppets attempting to take more land from or completely destroy Eponllyn. Eponllyn's response when Perdan's life is in their hands? To give them redemption...and Perdan !@#$s them for it. I wish I could continue, but I already feel myself getting too stressed about this to do so.
There is nothing to be respected by Perdan's rise. Its another disappointing episode in the tale of BattleMaster players deciding that Winning is more important than Playing with others, same as ruined Atamara. But no one will learn until they've driven more players away with their toxicity.
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I helped prevent Perdan's death. We could have destroyed Perdan, never could have returned like they did, and destroyed all that years of sirion-perdanite historical rivalry.
Well, guess what. This time you lost and Perdan returned the favour. We did not destroy you even despite the hatred crap and constant middle fingers flying our way. You have as much a chance to come back as Perdan did way back.
You really need to learn to lose with grace. You conquered Perdan's capital some time ago. Later it took it back from you. Move on.
I think you really are projecting here. You speak of Perdan being bent on winning, while in fact you are the one being completely over the top because you lost. For shame.
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Players go on and on about limited wars, avoiding gangbangs, smaller realms for closer conflicts. But then they sabotage those very people who agree with them and in the process, proportionally weaken themselves and proportionally strengthen those who don't care. After being on the receiving end of the beat-down while saying 'hey, we were saying this before you guys did!', one realizes its just rhetoric to others.
If Perdan wanted more realms standing up against gangbangs and for smaller realms, ie Eponllyn not warring Oligarch, they should not have destroyed the one realm that had been advocating that on EC for longer than Perdan had. If Oligarch had wanted more realms standing up against gangbangs and for smaller realms, ie Eponllyn not warring Oligarch, Oligarch should not have greedily demanded more from Sirion and let Eponllyn/Nivemus to deal with Perdan alone. If Xavax/Fallangard had wanted more realms to stand in its defense, it should not have ignored a pre-emptive defense with Fallangard joining against Vix when Eponllyn/Nivemus will still willing to resist. Actions have consequences and you reap what you sow. If you take a medium-sized realm that is independent of the Polarized Island Politics and force it into a tiny city-state, it will either die in a blaze of glory and be forgotten about or it will hang around doing its best to become self-sufficient and join in the wars it can join in without being destroyed.
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Well, guess what. This time you lost and Perdan returned the favour. We did not destroy you even despite the hatred crap and constant middle fingers flying our way. You have as much a chance to come back as Perdan did way back.
Perdan did this before when they stole Ibladesh/Al Arab and left us with Semall. Weeks later convincing the ally that left us out to dry against Caligus to conquer Semall and destroy us. Only with Fallangard was Eponllyn able to survive (and got Itorunt in the process). Perdan/Perleone response? Quarantine Eponllyn away from all other realms and threaten to annihilate Eponllyn if they ever touched foot into Perleone (which was the only border we ever had). Driving players away in boredom. This after we had tried to include Perleone as a friendly neighbour, which they said they wanted nothing to do with, until Armonia cried to them for help in their dying throes.
When the ice came, Perdan wanted Eponllyn to give up on their realm entirely, fight for Perdan to conquer Oligarch, and maybe out of the kindness of their heart they would give us a new realm. You know, months later after we had lost more players along the way and become assimilated into Perdan. Sirion *gives* us Oligarch and Perdan tried to annihilate/genocide us again. We actually win against Perdan for once, allow them to live, are cooperating, preparing to help them out against the rebellious Vixens in their civil war (in a defensive posture only). And then suddenly Perdan starts a gamey OOC war with Vix and tell Eponllyn they want nothing to do with us anymore. By the time we have readjusted ourselves and are fighting a new war, attracting new nobles to the realm, Perdan and Vix want into the war (after they had just demanded no one intervene in *their* war). So Nivemus joins in. And then Vix wails for peace. And the war we just got involved in ends. So we go looking for a new war *again*. Perdan wants passage rights. Oh alright, we can have a limited war like you fought with Vix before, since we all agree limited wars and small realms are good! Hey, why are you looting us? Hey, why are you TOing our regions?
So yes, I'm !@#$ing annoyed at three years of getting beat down by Perdan over and over and over and over again, no matter how cooperative we have tried to be, and all their god damned 'limited war, small realms' circlejerk rhetorical bull!@#$. Eponllyn just wanted to fight some !@#$ing reasonable wars. But Perdan cannot let that be. They have to destroy us, taking cities. Try to annihilate us. Or jump into our wars and end them before we even get started after they've had their own wars. If there is one thing I can count on in EC, its for Perdan to !@#$ with Eponllyn.
You really need to learn to lose with grace. You conquered Perdan's capital some time ago. Later it took it back from you. Move on.
I think you really are projecting here. You speak of Perdan being bent on winning, while in fact you are the one being completely over the top because you lost. For shame.
This has nothing to do with a single !@#$ing loss. Thats the whole point. We have lost. Over and over. And kept playing through it. Perdan kept coming at us no matter where we were at. So yes, after three plus !@#$ing years of Perdan's bull!@#$, I am fed up. This has to do with the !@#$ing behavioral attitude of Perdan players. My characters have 'lost' plenty as I play them for their storyline more than winning. Which is why you will see them behave realistically and to their own detriment at times. Or I push them into unrealistic goals that often fall-short, just to do something different. I expected Eponllyn to be dead with the Glaciers/Freeze, so its a !@#$ing miracle it even survived to Oligarch, let alone capturing Perdan's capital after Perdan had stolen Eponllyn's original capital to found its Perleone puppet. Capturing the enemy's capital after he colonized your capital, in a war the enemy started to annihilate you...it was beautiful. But I never expected it to happen. But that is all a tangent from the issue of Perdan's behavioral tendency over many years.
EDIT: And what sparked my most recent frustration was the realization of Perdan executing advies just for being of an enemy realm when my adventurer I was barely logging in once or twice a week to hunt with was executed without a word. Which as I said before, alone is fine, I've done it myself here and there, advies are intentionally disposable, !@#$ happens. But then I noticed it was Perdan who executed them. And I realized, yet again, it was Perdan behind another 'incident'. And I ask myself...why is it always !@#$ing Perdan that these things happen from? Its not the isolated incident here or there. It seems to be a consistent militarist policy of 'destroy anything not of Perdan'. Its not about the specific advy loss, the specific lost battle, war, city, whatever. Its the whole trend that is noticeable from players within Perdan, from Atanamir and his ilk, to the new return of players since the war with Eponllyn, and how Perdan has behaved with those players compared to without.
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Do we need to start a "Really Nivemus/Shadowdale" thread as well? or just edit this one to include?
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So yes, I'm !@#$ing annoyed at three years of getting beat down by Perdan over and over and over and over again, no matter how cooperative we have tried to be
Wow. I tried to argue rationally but it looks like it is really personal to you. What else can I say? Better luck next time and remember that it's only a game.
On a different note, wasn't Oligarch like Eponllyn's only friend? I heard they repeatedly sued for peace with Sirion just to go help Eponllyn fight Perdan. The irony!
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Wow. I tried to argue rationally but it looks like it is really personal to you. What else can I say? Better luck next time and remember that it's only a game.
He's right, you know.
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Seems that some people's idea of "smaller realms" is "small enough to not be a threat to our realm".
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You can't of course say he's wrong in his frustration, it's a subjective feeling after all.
But when it comes to hard facts, he's got nothing.
I struggle a bit wading through the wall of text but as far as I can see his main accusation is "Perdan destroys everything it doesn't like". In reality Perdan has not destroyed anyone and even took precautions to not let certain realms be destroyed. And the usual baloney about Vix and Perleone being Perdan's puppets. And recalling some personal grudges from three years ago. And vilifying perfectly normal actions practiced by every other realm.
That's just bitterness speaking, not common sense.
IT's entirely possible Eponllyn will be beaten by Perdan again in the future and while I see why you'd feel disappointed as an Eponllyn player I can't see why it's bad in terms of playing a game.
Seems that some people's idea of "smaller realms" is "small enough to not be a threat to our realm".
Small realm is a realm with no more than two cities. A one-city realm can be very threatening by the way, as Perdan has recently shown.
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Small realm is a realm with no more than two cities. A one-city realm can be very threatening by the way, as Perdan has recently shown.
Instead of ignoring what I said and blindly aggrandizing Perdan lets look closer at that definition.
With Al Arab and Ibladesh, by your definition, Perleone isn't a small realm. I'd disagree of course, it has two cities, but with a total of four regions, it's tiny. Of course Perleone is a small realm when you think of it logically, every bit as much as Fallangard, Alara, Eponllyn, First Oligarch, Obsidian Islands, Shadowdale, and Minas Nova. Yet, instead of going in on them to get them to spin Ibladesh into its own realm, Perdan joined with them in an alliance. Obviously a "Small Realm" is more than a sum of it's parts.
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Guys this is supposed to be an OOC forum, not a continuance of the IC propaganda.
Concerning who left Eponllyn out to dry, it's everyone really.
- Nivemus was way to late to assist them (while having nothing else to do) to a point where Eponllyn was already too weakened for their support to really make the difference.
- Sirion was offered a peace/alliance to fight Perdan by Oligarch long before Eponllyn was at risk of losing Perdan City. Sirion continuously ignored this proposal by Oligarch and screwed Eponllyn over in a big way, just to continue the war on Oligarch.
- Oligarch when the whole Perdan City thing did happen in the end, there was a moment where Sirion offered a temporary peace to Oligarch in order to help Eponllyn. For this Oligarch had to return 2 regions or so (by memmory). It was felt in Oligarch that if they'd accept now they'd be destroyed soon after and so we ultimately declined and left Eponllyn hanging.
So please Vita, don't bull!@#$ on this one by looking at one side. Everyone in the north left Eponllyn hanging.
The only reason Eponllyn is now warring Oligarch is because it's a simple way to gain lands and nothing more. They're jumping on the bandwagon and so will Nivemus and Garas will burn them all before he surrenders his city.
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I concur with Gabanus, First Oligarch was at war with Nivemus, Sirion and Shadowdale at first. Looking at the odds, Eponllyn decided to join the war to get more lands.
Eponllyn only has one city and 2 other regions, such a far cry from what it was back then. It is really just a simple matter of survival and opportunity, even more so due to Perdan's aggressiveness and (hatred*?) towards Eponllyn.
Hic Sunt Leones,
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I concur with Gabanus, First Oligarch was at war with Nivemus, Sirion and Shadowdale at first. Looking at the odds, Eponllyn decided to join the war to get more lands.
Eponllyn only has one city and 2 other regions, such a far cry from what it was back then. It is really just a simple matter of survival and opportunity, even more so due to Perdan's aggressiveness and (hatred*?) towards Eponllyn.
Hic Sunt Leones,
Actually Oligarch was not at war with Nivemus, but it seems they will soon join the fray as well. A first Caligus unit has been spotted also, so I would assume that they will try a siege with Sirion, Caligus, Nivemus, Eponllyn and Shadowdale vs Oligarch City. That'll be one epic scene most likely. Based on army composition I already have a pretty good idea of how it'll prob look like, but don't want to give away too much advise to the enemies of course.
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Actually Oligarch was not at war with Nivemus, but it seems they will soon join the fray as well. A first Caligus unit has been spotted also, so I would assume that they will try a siege with Sirion, Caligus, Nivemus, Eponllyn and Shadowdale vs Oligarch City. That'll be one epic scene most likely. Based on army composition I already have a pretty good idea of how it'll prob look like, but don't want to give away too much advise to the enemies of course.
they already declared war.
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The North has to be clear and secure from all enemies before they head south to deal with Perdan. This has and continues to be the prevailing strategy.
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The North has to be clear and secure from all enemies before they head south to deal with Perdan. This has and continues to be the prevailing strategy.
Except for the fact that Oligarch never intended to fight Sirion or anyone in the north (at least not at first) but was forced into war by Sirion. In fact it was Oligarch's goal (as stated also to Sirion) to wage war on Caligus in stead (whom was neutral at the time with Sirion as nobody in that council except Etchelion liked them in the first place). Sirion refused this and has continued war ever since. Even in the early days of Perdan/Vix' war on Eponllyn, Oligarch offered Sirion to march with them on Perdan and end hostilities in the north.
So while it may be the prevailing strategy now, it makes little sense when you say "has" really. Oligarch wasn't created in retalliation of Sirion or anything :)
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Except...Oligarch was formed from an unsanctioned secession from Sirion. That's pretty much as aggressive as they can get.
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Except...Oligarch was formed from an unsanctioned secession from Sirion. That's pretty much as aggressive as they can get.
Not really. It's still up to the realm of origin to decide whether it's worth a war or not.
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Except...Oligarch was formed from an unsanctioned secession from Sirion. That's pretty much as aggressive as they can get.
It depends very much how you view it. In the original plan 2 more dukes were supposed to join as several in the council thought it was a good idea, of course that backfired :p
But even then Oligarch offered an alliance to Sirion, which puts the seccession in a bit of a different daylight I'd say. But to every their own of course
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the more i read this thread, the less i like oligarch.
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the more i read this thread, the less i like oligarch.
Funny how I get the opposite feeling...
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the more i read this thread, the less i like oligarch.
Interesting, and why is that?
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i had this image of oli as a rebel state made of people who either didnt like sirion or realized how bad sirion's apparent invincible dominion was for ec, who took a massive risk to break away and cut their own path.
now you're telling me it was an attempt at a friendly secession with intents to ally with the motherland, but somehow that got botched.
so basically you all managed to roll three hallmarks of "bad bm" into one big botch, those being supporting the status quo or a practically indistinguishable version of it, hegemonism, and screwups from bad communication.
glad you did so with such a rich city as your capital. i still support oli in the situation as it stands, just your origin story sucks compared to what was in my head.
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i had this image of oli as a rebel state made of people who either didnt like sirion or realized how bad sirion's apparent invincible dominion was for ec, who took a massive risk to break away and cut their own path.
now you're telling me it was an attempt at a friendly secession with intents to ally with the motherland, but somehow that got botched.
so basically you all managed to roll three hallmarks of "bad bm" into one big botch, those being supporting the status quo or a practically indistinguishable version of it, hegemonism, and screwups from bad communication.
glad you did so with such a rich city as your capital. i still support oli in the situation as it stands, just your origin story sucks compared to what was in my head.
The issue with this is that Perdan is much more a hegemonic imperialist than Sirion. While Oligarch could stand on its own against Sirion if Perdan were weak, once Perdan grows strong like it has it becomes a threat to both of them. Sirion has largely been content with what they have, even if it is a large area. Perdan is the one constantly attacking and destroying the rising powers around it.
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Instead of ignoring what I said and blindly aggrandizing Perdan lets look closer at that definition.
With Al Arab and Ibladesh, by your definition, Perleone isn't a small realm. I'd disagree of course, it has two cities, but with a total of four regions, it's tiny. Of course Perleone is a small realm when you think of it logically, every bit as much as Fallangard, Alara, Eponllyn, First Oligarch, Obsidian Islands, Shadowdale, and Minas Nova.
About Perleone. If we compare Ibladesh city with Oligarch city, of course Oligarch city is the richest. Probably that is main reason why Oligarch hold out longest against Sirion.
Everyone in the north left Eponllyn hanging.
Agree, it is everyone to be blame. Especially if you considered that 2 realms were beating Eponllyn 8)
If it is 1 realm versus 1 realm war, Eponllyn could at least fight evenly.
I concur with Gabanus, First Oligarch was at war with Nivemus, Sirion and Shadowdale at first. Looking at the odds, Eponllyn decided to join the war to get more lands.
Eponllyn only has one city and 2 other regions, such a far cry from what it was back then. It is really just a simple matter of survival and opportunity, even more so due to Perdan's aggressiveness and (hatred*?) towards Eponllyn.
Hic Sunt Leones,
I think it is natural process that "if you can't beat them, you beat other". We all hear the saying "if you can't beat them, join them". I wish to modify that saying for Battlemaster. "If you can't beat them, you beat other".
In this case, Eponllyn could not beat Perdan, nevermind Vix on its own. So I agree with you and Gabanus here, lands is the reason for war. But there are more reasons behind it, if you are from Eponllyn, Sirion or Nivemus realms, you would understand why. As part of your curiosity, I leave it to you to find out ::)
The North has to be clear and secure from all enemies before they head south to deal with Perdan. This has and continues to be the prevailing strategy.
Agree, it makes sense logically :)
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Eponlyynn's Queen flat out lied, indicating that it was not at all about lands. Speaking OOC, Selenia and ever other ruler of the East saw right through it. That'll hurt her down the line.
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i had this image of oli as a rebel state made of people who either didnt like sirion or realized how bad sirion's apparent invincible dominion was for ec, who took a massive risk to break away and cut their own path.
now you're telling me it was an attempt at a friendly secession with intents to ally with the motherland, but somehow that got botched.
so basically you all managed to roll three hallmarks of "bad bm" into one big botch, those being supporting the status quo or a practically indistinguishable version of it, hegemonism, and screwups from bad communication.
glad you did so with such a rich city as your capital. i still support oli in the situation as it stands, just your origin story sucks compared to what was in my head.
You would be part right still though, as it compliments the overall.
The main reason I secceeded Oligarch (well knowing there was a decent chance we'd sign our own execution) was because Sirion wasn't doing anything. That was the logic both IC and OOC. The Senate was too slow to make the decisions which would benefit the north as a whole and we were allowing the great imperialistic nations of the center (caligus, although now you can easily add Perdan to it again also) to regain strength and dominance again and once they'd have it they would come for the north again. Once they would, the north would have lost nobles due to inaction, where the center/south would only `have become stronger, which would mean the end of the north. So they way Sirion was acting was destroying themselves and something had to be done. That is what Garas had been telling the Senate for months and where several agreed, things were stalled quite nicely according to Sirion tradition, also because Ecthelion didn't seem to agree.
The first focus was therefore to fight Caligus and to bring some action back to the north. The thing is, I don't much believe in the 'eternal' alliance concept of best buddies for life. I love more the idea of temporary alliances for different wars only to fight each other at a later moment and Oligarch would have followed that logic afterwards, but alas that chance was never given :p
We wanted to bring some fun back into the north and I think we succeeded to a certain extend and it creates a nice 'rebellion'' story I suppose.
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If i understood right, Eponllyn simply messed up diplomacy totally on that Perdan war.
It all started by asking permission to go through. It was agreed no looting, no TOing, but Eponllyn did loot first which made Perdan to drop off its gloves.
When it started to look bad for Eponllyn, they surrendered, but refused to terms. They granted passage right to Perdan, but not Vix, which made the war continue. Then they declared hatred... And now they blame Perdan?
I was in Perdan and i disagreed continue of the war loudly, which eventually lead to that i left from Perdan few days ago.
I agree that Perdan is highly militaristic and aggressive, but i dont see that as a game problem. Sucks to be neighbour of this kind of war machine, but as history has shown, they can be brought down and one day they will be again beaten.
I didnt enjoy that much playing at Perdan, but i do understand those who do, it is always great to play with active and skillfull people.
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yep, it all worked out in the end. now keep those guys busy for a while.
@gundam while perdan is obviously stronger now than sirion, the situation would be a lot different had oli not seceded or been a proxy realm, and regardless sirion's alliance is much stronger than perdan and possesses near-complete dominion over the larger half of the map and other advantages.
its easy to see perdan as the big bad guy in xavax given the situation, but the reality is xavax was screwed as a realm the moment magnus beat viridiana by half a vote.
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yep, it all worked out in the end. now keep those guys busy for a while.
@gundam while perdan is obviously stronger now than sirion, the situation would be a lot different had oli not seceded or been a proxy realm, and regardless sirion's alliance is much stronger than perdan and possesses near-complete dominion over the larger half of the map and other advantages.
its easy to see perdan as the big bad guy in xavax given the situation, but the reality is xavax was screwed as a realm the moment magnus beat viridiana by half a vote.
You grocely overestimate Sirion's power here. And Oligarch's seccession brought more people into the north. Had I not done it, Sirion might have had 5 more nobles than it does now, but that's prob it because it would be boring as hell and maybe we'd actually have fewer as people would have left for doing nothing. On the plus side, I could have been sitting on 50k+ by now in gold.
And yeah it's quite easy to see Perdan as the bad guy in the Xavax situation, no matter the reason.
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It all started by asking permission to go through. It was agreed no looting, no TOing, but Eponllyn did loot first which made Perdan to drop off its gloves.
No. Perdan looted Eponllyn first, in Perdan Mines. We didn't loot Perdan until a week an a half later when Perdan refuses to acknowledge their looting. Eponllyn did not loot Perdan first and never would have because looting has always been something very touchy within honour-obsessed Eponllyn, had Perdan kept to its word and honour like Eponllyn. But instead, it took advantage of Eponllyn's honour and mercy with its aggressive militarism.
When it started to look bad for Eponllyn, they surrendered, but refused to terms. They granted passage right to Perdan, but not Vix, which made the war continue. Then they declared hatred... And now they blame Perdan?
Eponllyn did ask nicely, because we really did want to fight a war instead of *constantly* having Perdan/Vix end our wars almost immediately, to continue the war with just Vix, thinking we'd have a better, more equal shot. Perdan/Vix said no, and we said 'okay, fine, theres nothing we can do to object'. And then you ignored us. And TOed Bescanon. And other regions until Perdan City, despite us going 'hey, we agreed to your terms'.
Nemo declaring hatred was a diplomatic mis-step, but really, after everything Perdan has done to Eponllyn since Eponllyn's very founding with the destruction of Ibladesh and creation of Eponllyn in-secession, is entirely understandable knee-jerk response. Perdan has behaved in Hatred of Eponllyn for three+ OOC years, over and over again, save for a small number of months with Fionna as Queen of Perdan. So while Eppy made the mistake of putting it to paper, Perdan already behaved in Hatred long before.
I agree that Perdan is highly militaristic and aggressive, but i dont see that as a game problem. Sucks to be neighbour of this kind of war machine, but as history has shown, they can be brought down and one day they will be again beaten.
I do not see militarism and aggressiveness as inherently a game/player problem, as an in-character problem. I see players who use militarism/aggressiveness as an excuse for Total War on Players in trying to Win the Island as a problem. When playing the bellicose and/or insulting types, one must consider what it would be like playing on the other side of it.
At least, when I was more actively playing Raziella, she was always an offensively arrogant jerk, but I tried (hopefully succeeding) to do it in such a way that the Player was amused more than insulted via their character (people get quite attached, I've noticed). Or with influencing Lurian policy, I consciously made the point to delay and avoid the destruction of realms (like Barca, Asylon) as long as possible to give them utmost chance to survive. And heck, even with Perdan/Eponllyn, my voice was one of those suggesting we *not* destroy Perdan like Perdan destroyed Ibladesh, because we are *better* than that, but offer redemption instead, and maybe we can bring Perdan to see a New Light of small realms and limited wars. Because our players had experienced what it was like to be on the receiving end of Perdan and we did not want to give them the same treatment. Well, that backfired beautifully on Eponllyn. :D
Just as Perdan's epic devastation of raping, slaughtering, and starving everyone between Ibladesh to Semall affected Eponllyn into a policy of never looting civil populations, using looting with utmost discretion in war, usually accompanied by many internal debates and fines, and only against military targets. So Perdan saying 'no looting at all' was perfectly acceptable to us. Until Perdan started looting us. If the Eponllyn-Perdan war proved anything, its the valuelessness of a Perdanite Agreement. Not only the initial war terms, but violating the treaty by taking back Perdan City, which Perdan had *willingly volunteered* having no more claim upon Perdan City for all eternity. Which was the same terms Perdan *forced* on Eponllyn with regard to Ibladesh and Al Arab in order to achieve the puppet state of Perleone (which later had a falling out with Perdan before reuniting more recently).
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Vita, you really have to let go... I understand your anger, but it doesn't help lashing out like that.
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Quit trying to rewrite history OOCly.
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And yeah it's quite easy to see Perdan as the bad guy in the Xavax situation, no matter the reason.
im sure alara, mn, and perleone would all strongly disagree, as well as vix and perdan obviously.
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im sure alara, mn, and perleone would all strongly disagree, as well as vix and perdan obviously.
I saw first-hand that Alara was just continuing the issues that plagued Atamara, Minas Nova was too afraid of Xavax growing powerful, and Perleone is well inside of Perdan's influence at this point.
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looking for allies as a tiny realm in the shadow of a much larger expansionist power really can't be compared to the atamaran issue.
mn was completely justified, magnus wanted to eat them.
perleone, see #1 and #2
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Actually, Warchief tried to ally with Xavax when we went to war with Alara, then joined Alara when JeVondair turned him down. I saw the messages myself. Seems like Minas Nova only wanted to support Alara because they didn't get the chance to have an easy gobble of Alaran regions. Magnus didn't have anything to do with it, Hell he wanted to ally with Alara and focus north on potentially fighting Perleone. Fighting Alara was what the rebels, yourself included, were pushing for, and got as part of the compromise that ended the rebellion.
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abjur, you weren't even part of those type of discussions when magnus was ruler.
im well aware of mn trying to play both sides diplomatically from the beginning. im also well aware that overwhelmingly, mn nobles were anti-xavax way before the rebellion, and that mn consistently tried to play friendly with xavax while working against xavax. im also apparently a lot more aware than you are that magnus always wanted to see mn destroyed and conquered either by xavax or by alara when he was still swearing up and down that robb starfall was his best friend despite all evidence to the contrary, see above.
you seem to forget who blew the whistle on alara and mn trying to form a coalition against xavax, who had the spy in mn that revealed the referendum in which mn voted overwhelmingly, maybe even unanimously, to back alara instead of xavax, who tried to warn you about exactly what has since happened to your poor, silly realm.
right, that was kellan. the evil anti-xavaxian rebel.
ive had enough experience with xavax to understand that the "loyalist" nobles will never have the awareness to realize what actually happened and is happening in their own realm. it doesn't matter to me, because at the end of the day i know that i did everything i could to help xavax and xavax refused to be helped.
so now i get to laugh at xavax while its nobles fall into every mistake i tried to steer them away from, as the destruction i warned them about comes crashing down on them, and in the end i will be gleefully yelling "i told you so" at your retreating backs as you all run for cover, wondering what went so very wrong. it doesn't matter what you yell back over your shoulders.
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abjur, you weren't even part of those type of discussions when magnus was ruler.
im well aware of mn trying to play both sides diplomatically from the beginning. im also well aware that overwhelmingly, mn nobles were anti-xavax way before the rebellion, and that mn consistently tried to play friendly with xavax while working against xavax. im also apparently a lot more aware than you are that magnus always wanted to see mn destroyed and conquered either by xavax or by alara when he was still swearing up and down that robb starfall was his best friend despite all evidence to the contrary, see above.
you seem to forget who blew the whistle on alara and mn trying to form a coalition against xavax, who had the spy in mn that revealed the referendum in which mn voted overwhelmingly, maybe even unanimously, to back alara instead of xavax, who tried to warn you about exactly what has since happened to your poor, silly realm.
right, that was kellan. the evil anti-xavaxian rebel.
ive had enough experience with xavax to understand that the "loyalist" nobles will never have the awareness to realize what actually happened and is happening in their own realm. it doesn't matter to me, because at the end of the day i know that i did everything i could to help xavax and xavax refused to be helped.
so now i get to laugh at xavax while its nobles fall into every mistake i tried to steer them away from, as the destruction i warned them about comes crashing down on them, and in the end i will be gleefully yelling "i told you so" at your retreating backs as you all run for cover, wondering what went so very wrong. it doesn't matter what you yell back over your shoulders.
Who are we talking to here, Jdodger or Kellan? :)
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when you have no real counter, resort to pedantry
edit: well, thats not necessarily fair, but ill leave it in case it is.
in case its not, the same silly lines of reasoning and blatant disregard of facts has been thrown at both myself in ooc channels and kellan in ic, to the point that me trying to carefully distinguish between the two is a pointless exercise in over-exactness. in the end, vindication will be both ooc and ic.
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Hey Xavax, stop stealing our topic :p This is about our unfairn war, not your rebellion or war. There is a specific topic for that :)
On a more related note, when do you guys think Caligus will join the fray as well to try and end Oligarch entirely? The first noble was already spotted joining the fight.
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Hey Xavax, stop stealing our topic :p This is about our unfairn war, not your rebellion or war. There is a specific topic for that :)
On a more related note, when do you guys think Caligus will join the fray as well to try and end Oligarch entirely? The first noble was already spotted joining the fight.
True enough, sorry we hijacked the thread!
Don't know, I haven't really had enough contact with their new High King yet to get a read on his character. He could go to war with Oligarch, or with Vix, or with the Obsidian Islands because he's feeling chartreuse pogoing camel today and going to war with the Obsidian Islands is what he does on chartreuse pogoing camel days. I don't expect them to make any sort of move until he gets a feel of the political situation he finds himself in however, and how long that takes him is entirely dependent on how close he followed Island politics before he won the election.
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True enough, sorry we hijacked the thread!
Don't know, I haven't really had enough contact with their new High King yet to get a read on his character. He could go to war with Oligarch, or with Vix, or with the Obsidian Islands because he's feeling chartreuse pogoing camel today and going to war with the Obsidian Islands is what he does on chartreuse pogoing camel days. I don't expect them to make any sort of move until he gets a feel of the political situation he finds himself in however, and how long that takes him is entirely dependent on how close he followed Island politics before he won the election.
I doubt Caligus would go against Vix, which means they'll prob either war against Oligarch, or against Fallangard making either war much more fun.
Would love to stand corrected on this one however, but I've kind of lost faith by now.
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I doubt Caligus would go against Vix, which means they'll prob either war against Oligarch, or against Fallangard making either war much more fun.
Would love to stand corrected on this one however, but I've kind of lost faith by now.
Wait, weren't they warring Oligarch?
And well, Caligus and Fallangard aren't the best of pals.. But who knows with the new High King, things might change!
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Wait, weren't they warring Oligarch?
And well, Caligus and Fallangard aren't the best of pals.. But who knows with the new High King, things might change!
They pulled out as Oligarch was willing to sign peace, but then the rest wasn't and just wanted their destruction something the old Queen of Caligus didn't think was required now that Caligus had captured enough new lands. With the new King who knows if they'll join back.
And "things might change", seems very likely yes...
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when you have no real counter, resort to pedantry
edit: well, thats not necessarily fair, but ill leave it in case it is.
in case its not, the same silly lines of reasoning and blatant disregard of facts has been thrown at both myself in ooc channels and kellan in ic, to the point that me trying to carefully distinguish between the two is a pointless exercise in over-exactness. in the end, vindication will be both ooc and ic.
It was an honest question, asked out of curiosity. It seems to me that you often assume the worst of people.
Of course there will always be people who disagree with you, or lie to you, ICly or OOCly. The rest of the world is not one person. Some people are just dishonest. Some people are normally honest but have no problems with lying in a game with imaginary castles and knights.
Many people here seems to take BM too seriously for my tastes. I hope it doesn't sour their enjoyment of the game.
Cheers. :)
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They pulled out as Oligarch was willing to sign peace, but then the rest wasn't and just wanted their destruction something the old Queen of Caligus didn't think was required now that Caligus had captured enough new lands. With the new King who knows if they'll join back.
And "things might change", seems very likely yes...
Oh Okay. Haven't been following up on the Northern diplomacy lately. It sounds like one big gangbang if I may trust the War notifications I'm getting.
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Oh Okay. Haven't been following up on the Northern diplomacy lately. It sounds like one big gangbang if I may trust the War notifications I'm getting.
It is. Oligarch's lands are now being TO'd with no way to do anything against it obviously. Only the city will hold, but if Caligus joins also it will be a tough job to even hold the city. Fortunately they're being led by Sirion and they are not particularly known for great military strategy :) As long as people don't start to listen to Daniel Risk the city should be safe a while longer. But yeah, at this point I actually think Oligarch City might fall. That's a feeling I haven't had for the entire duration of this war.
And with Oligarch down, the north will come south, especially since Eponllyn and Nivemus now joined the gangbang against Oligarch. Let's see what happens next.
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Would anyone mind giving me a brief rundown of the alliances and grudges of each realm?
I do know that Greater Xavax and Fallangard are federation parnters and Vix Tiramora are allied with Perdan, Caligus and Perleone.
Is Perleone a puppet realm of Perdan?
Hic Sunt Leones,
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Last time I saw the High Queen discuss war with Fallangard, she mentioned it would be over Abadan. Something about not being able to work out a deal for the region and wanting to see her realm "whole". Vix recently took Abadan, basically cutting the Mines off from the rest of Caligus, which is why I brought them up. ;)
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Last time I saw the High Queen discuss war with Fallangard, she mentioned it would be over Abadan. Something about not being able to work out a deal for the region and wanting to see her realm "whole". Vix recently took Abadan, basically cutting the Mines off from the rest of Caligus, which is why I brought them up. ;)
Fallangard is to Caligus what Oligarch is to Sirion, mostly just a bunch of rebels which should not be alive in the first place let alone in a city which 'rightfully' belongs to them. Vix and Caligus are buddies, so wouldn't be surprised if Abadan is transfered shortly.
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Would anyone mind giving me a brief rundown of the alliances and grudges of each realm?
I do know that Greater Xavax and Fallangard are federation parnters and Vix Tiramora are allied with Perdan, Caligus and Perleone.
Is Perleone a puppet realm of Perdan?
Hic Sunt Leones,
I can really only speak of the Southern Realms:
Alara, Minas Nova, and Perleone, are allies. They were the original three realms that arrayed themselves against Xavax when Xavax declared war against Alara. They've also recently (or were already) allied with Perdan and Vix. Minas Nova and Xavax hold a mutual Hatred, while Alara/Xavax Have Hatred/War repectively. Perleone/Xavax are merely at War standing.
Perdan and Vix are at war with Xavax and Fallangard. Their greatest achievement to date has been the taking of Abadan from Fallangard.
Caligus is allied with Alara and Perleone, but has been ignoring those alliances in part of an agreement between the High Queen and Xerarch that as long as Fallangard only engaged in defensive actions within Xavax, Caligus would stay out of it. Caligus has thus remained at peace with Xavax and Fallangard. Caligus' High Queen did give their ally Vix travel rights through their regions though (and let us know ahead of time that she was going to do it). It remains to be seen if any of these verbal agreements hold with the change in rulership in Caligus.
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its easy to see Perdan as the big bad guy in xavax given the situation, but the reality is xavax was screwed as a realm the moment Magnus beat viridiana by half a vote.
Letting Magnus win was a mistake, yes, but I wouldn't say Xavax is doomed quite yet...
Quit trying to rewrite history OOCly.
+1
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Is Perleone a puppet realm of Perdan?
It was founded as a puppet realm in war against Eponllyn, but the Perdanites that formed it and stayed within Perdan, and those who stayed within Perleone, are no longer around and relations have changed since the founding. Since then, there have been Perdan-Perleone conflicts, but now they are working together against Xavax. The very name Perleone comes from Perdan and Minas Leon, an Atamaran realm ruled by Perleone's first king Nigel de La Fere's relative. Perleone, at this point, is probably small-enough populated that a group of dedicated players could probably restore it to whatever vision they so desire with little resistance.
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I think Caligus is in the awkward position of having too much power and too few ways to use it responsibly. There was considerable realm outcry to put the brakes on the Oligarch war after it was very clear the tides had turned as many didn't want to continue a war of destruction. I think this is the main reason Fallangard hasn't been bombed to death but man is that an awkward realm location. The problem really is that the three central powers are all linked in some way and prevents interesting balanced conflicts in the north or south. I'm curious to see what the new High King will do with that.
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I think Caligus is in the awkward position of having too much power and too few ways to use it responsibly. There was considerable realm outcry to put the brakes on the Oligarch war after it was very clear the tides had turned as many didn't want to continue a war of destruction. I think this is the main reason Fallangard hasn't been bombed to death but man is that an awkward realm location. The problem really is that the three central powers are all linked in some way and prevents interesting balanced conflicts in the north or south. I'm curious to see what the new High King will do with that.
Well it was my understanding that Perdan and Caligus are still not on a good foot (would fit history well). Another problem is that Caligus holds so much land already that it prob doesn't have that many expansion possibilities either, taking away a huge reason for backstabbing and war.
In my entire BM life (this one and my previous one) I've never seen Caligus fighting a war where it was not certain they'd be victorious (unless someone declared war on them), but now with the power that they have I'm curious if that will change or not.
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Vita, you really have to let go... I understand your anger, but it doesn't help lashing out like that.
Quit trying to rewrite history OOCly.
Wait, what? :D
But really, dude. A bit too much hostility coming from you and you need to keep yourself in check in an OOC forum.
On a different note, why didn't Oligarch ally with Eponllyn early on? I thought they were on very friendly terms, no?
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On a different note, why didn't Oligarch ally with Eponllyn early on? I thought they were on very friendly terms, no?
They were, at least when we (Vix) were dealing with them. Oligarch even stood up for Eppy with all the region allegiance changing and stuff.
Guess every realm needs a war in the end, and if it's an easy one, hell why not. But don't quote me on that, my knowledge of the Northern politics are rather.. vague.
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Wait, what? :D
But really, dude. A bit too much hostility coming from you and you need to keep yourself in check in an OOC forum.
On a different note, why didn't Oligarch ally with Eponllyn early on? I thought they were on very friendly terms, no?
Trust me, we tried, but Eponllyn was still allied with Sirion and Sirion at war with Oligarch so it was impossible unless Eponllyn lowered relations with Sirion. Relations between King Garin of Eponllyn and Garas were quite strong, still from their long cooperation in the long war when Garas was Sirion's General and the relation between Catherine and Garin was even better. It's also why Eponllyn never joined the war against us despite Sirion asking many times.
It was indeed Oligarch that long stood up for Eponllyn in their war and even tried for a few months to get peace with Sirion and a cooperation to assist Eponllyn against Perdan and Vix. This of course did not happen and then history just continued. Now Eponllyn seems afraid of Perdan, can't well war Nivemus because they were the only ones actually physically helping them in the end and Oligarch is an easy target for some land grab and to grow in strength for Eponllyn. But true strength lies in number of nobility these days and this is not scoring them a lot of points I guess.
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But really, dude. A bit too much hostility coming from you...
But its okay for Perdan's players to be so hostile to other players. God forbid anything negative be said about Perdan. God forbid you consider what I am writing instead of knee-jerk defensiveness.
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that's the thing vita. i dont see any perdan players getting this worked up, even though other players, including ones that have no current or recent problem with perdan, are referring to perdan as various unflattering anatomical parts and other things, decrying everything perdan does, etc.. perdan players have taken that criticism in stride, defended what they felt was necessary and even admitted that some of the things said about them are true... which is pretty rare for the internet.
i dont think you have said anything particularly offensive, but there is a tenseness in your words that will make people who have spent time interacting with you a bit concerned. we dont want to see you this upset over a game.
just as a personal me to you, i think a lot of your stress related to the game itself lately is you picking a lot of lost cause realms to get involved in. sometimes its just easier to take the path of least resistance and choose a realm you can just have fun in instead of trying to right all the wrongs of the world.
this is at least a semi hardcore game in many ways. the weak will be eaten by the strong. if you dont have the time, energy, patience, whatever necessary to be superman, dont try to be superman. just have fun with what you can do.
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that's the thing vita. i dont see any perdan players getting this worked up, even though other players, including ones that have no current or recent problem with perdan, are referring to perdan as various unflattering anatomical parts and other things, decrying everything perdan does, etc.. perdan players have taken that criticism in stride, defended what they felt was necessary and even admitted that some of the things said about them are true... which is pretty rare for the internet.
i dont think you have said anything particularly offensive, but there is a tenseness in your words that will make people who have spent time interacting with you a bit concerned. we dont want to see you this upset over a game.
just as a personal me to you, i think a lot of your stress related to the game itself lately is you picking a lot of lost cause realms to get involved in. sometimes its just easier to take the path of least resistance and choose a realm you can just have fun in instead of trying to right all the wrongs of the world.
this is at least a semi hardcore game in many ways. the weak will be eaten by the strong. if you dont have the time, energy, patience, whatever necessary to be superman, dont try to be superman. just have fun with what you can do.
Sooooo much bull!@#$. The Perdan players are not just "taking it in stride", they've been some of the most obnoxious !@#$%^&s about all this.
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Sooooo much bull!@#$. The Perdan players are not just "taking it in stride", they've been some of the most obnoxious !@#$%^&s about all this.
One must be careful to remember that there are exceptions and no group is cohesive. But I do agree that there is a strong contingent within Perdan that seems to have forgotten playing *with* people.
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Would anyone mind giving me a brief rundown of the alliances and grudges of each realm?
I do know that Greater Xavax and Fallangard are federation parnters and Vix Tiramora are allied with Perdan, Caligus and Perleone.
Is Perleone a puppet realm of Perdan?
Hic Sunt Leones,
About the northern realms. A little rundown. Sirion, Eponllyn and Nivemus are all Allies. These 3 realms have grudges back in last Perdan big war in the north. Perdan, Westmoor(now fallen realm) and even Obsidian Islands were at war with these 3 realms. After that big war, Perdan lost and had to give up Duchy of Perdan(Perdan city and surrounding lands) to Eponllyn.
They were, at least when we (Vix) were dealing with them. Oligarch even stood up for Eppy with all the region allegiance changing and stuff.
Guess every realm needs a war in the end, and if it's an easy one, hell why not. But don't quote me on that, my knowledge of the Northern politics are rather.. vague.
Yeah, Oligarch stood by Eponllyn by giving up Duchy of Perdan lands(due to Duke Jeroen changing allegiance) to Perdan.
And did not Oligarch ask for Krimml city from Sirion in order to halt their war with Sirion to help Eponllyn?
So "nice" of Oligarch till all its neighbors want attack it :P
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After that big war, Perdan lost and had to give up Duchy of Perdan(Perdan city and surrounding lands) to Eponllyn.
'had to give up' implies it was forced on Perdan. Perdan started the war to destroy a realm, it backfired on Perdan, most of EC wanted to destroy Perdan in-exchange, but Eppy stood up for Perdan's survival once Perdan decided to not fight to the last man and actually negotiate. Perdan itself proposed giving up the Duchy of Perdan and all claims on it for all time, which was deemed as ironically fitting within Perdan considering how Perdan had stolen Eponllyn's capital by first getting a duke to secede from Eponllyn to form a Perleone in Al Arab/Ibladesh, and then conquering Al Arab/Ibladesh in a brutal looting campaign, forcing Eponllyn to sign a treaty that permanently gave up our claims on our homelands and forced us out of them. Additionally ironic as Perleone was initially populated by Westmoorians, whose realm/city was also destroyed in Perdan's War to Destroy Eponllyn in Oligarch, and further populated by more Westmoorians, creating a situation of Eponllyn occupying Perdan and Westmoor homelands while Perdan/Westmoor occupied Eponllyn's homeland.
Yeah, Oligarch stood by Eponllyn by giving up Duchy of Perdan lands(due to Duke Jeroen changing allegiance) to Perdan.
And did not Oligarch ask for Krimml city from Sirion in order to halt their war with Sirion to help Eponllyn?
So "nice" of Oligarch till all its neighbors want attack it :P
I think Gabanus was referring to diplomatic support previous to those events, when Garin was still around and probably before even Perdan looted Eponllyn. But yes, Oligarch did abandon Eponllyn/Jeroen/Perdan Duchy because Sirion did not give in to Oligarch demanding Krimml to have a ceasefire and unite against Perdan/Vix.
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Heh saving enemies. Never a wise idea :D
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For a time, Perdan-Eponllyn were friendly. Eponllyn was ready to defend them from Vix in a civil war. Then they suddenly wanted nothing to do with us, had a very friendly war with Vix as if they were all best mates on a hunting trip, and went back to their old selves. All the while spouting the same rhetoric we had been saying all along, but acting like their same old selves. We respectfully stay out of their war and get our own war. Then they both insert themselves into our war and end it before it barely gets started. They come at us for a simple battles-only war over passage rights. Then they break every agreement they made with us and destroy us. Such is Perdan.
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Sooooo much bull!@#$. The Perdan players are not just "taking it in stride", they've been some of the most obnoxious !@#$%^&s about all this.
where on these forums have you seen a perdan player use these kinds of inappropriate insults.
you haven't.
ic actions are ic actions, if you dont like them address it ic.
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What about a reset of the whole continent, with new realms everywhere with a few lands. And every player currently on it, gets distributed randomly in any of these realms across the continent.
No more history, no more fighting over who has done or said what ten thousand years ago.
Now that would sound nice.
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What about a reset of the whole continent, with new realms everywhere with a few lands. And every player currently on it, gets distributed randomly in any of these realms across the continent.
No more history, no more fighting over who has done or said what ten thousand years ago.
Now that would sound nice.
That would be nice. I can see it in my head... a world starting from diplomatic scratch. It would be a massive reach for power in the beginning, everyone would be fighting... no rules set by past, no people hunted for holding their flag... just a huge fight for power. Just like it was supposed to be from the beginning... From the crossroads of war, sprouts people fed up with the crooked ways of their king, so they say "I want to be a king too!" So off they go, to make realms, struggling to truly be accepted as a sovereign realm. Creating another circle of war to prove their own power.
Oh no... what is this I see... oh dear... I feared it would come! Hide me please! It is the people who don't like change! No, stay away ! Please don't do this... it's for the good of the game! What? "Don't tell me how to play?" But! It'll make the game fun! "You ruined MY game". No! Can't you just allow us to try something new?! "NO! How dare you be so selfish!". But... but... okay :c
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What about a reset of the whole continent, with new realms everywhere with a few lands. And every player currently on it, gets distributed randomly in any of these realms across the continent.
No more history, no more fighting over who has done or said what ten thousand years ago.
Now that would sound nice.
I hate it. I think there should be island with thing like that, but one of the beauty and uglyness of these old islands are the old cultures and history and ancient disputes... if you dont like it, leave the island. One reason why i hated so much sinking of Atamara was that all the awesome cultures and history was destroyed.
I think people just need to give up if they dont enjoy some island/realm. Let those play who enjoy... most vocal Atamara sinkers were those who didnt play there.
It would be real nice to have island which would reset, lets say every year, or every 2nd year for set date. Everything lost, every char deleted... fresh start next day :) Mayby RC's and infra would stay, but all chars and realms deleted. And mayby even so that no family names, it would be totally separated from other game... a bit like war island is now, but it would just end even if there is no "winner". Mayby add some sort of realm score system? Realm with highest score at the set date will win :P
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Let me be clear that I do enjoy playing on EC, very much even.
I just see so much bickering about history and who did what wrong on these forums that I was thinking about the suggestion I made. I agree with Jaune that those that do not enjoy playing, could join another continent. And I'm rather sure they will, too. Maybe some people just like to be right on these forums all the time.
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History is written by the victors... isnt that the quote... just happens in BM there aren't supposed to be victors, there is supposed to be evolution, realms die things change.
EC is a stagnant pool, Atamara as much as some, (generally long term players), loved it, was the same. Stagnant pools start to stink.
I am no lover of Perdan as a concept, but in reality at least they try something different. What I find sad in the Eponllyn situation is that, as I have said, they were a realm not afraid to be individuals who are now falling into the block... that said once Oligarch is done and Eponllyn can re-establlish maybe they will be able to re-establish that independence... Not that I am giving up on Oligarch yet!!
If we are going to rake over the last war I would also say that Eponllyn were not the drivers for peace with Perdan... they got on board before Sirion, but it was Nivemus who pushed for peace, as I'm sure you will remember Vita, Catherine was slated and slandered for not wanting to crush Perdan from many sides including many of the more actives of Eponllyn, so please don't try to make out that you were such a generous realm pushing to give them peace. Garin got that a dead Perdan left no counter weight to Sirion so came on board, but he certainly didn't instigate.
Whats more it was well known the minute that deal was signed ensured that there would be a war between Eponllyn and Perdan at some stage, they would never accept the loss of their namesake city. War is a healthy aspect of the game, its just a shame everything degenerates into mis-matched gang bangs, but I guess this is quite reflective of the real world too. Eponllyns decline is regrettable on many levels, hell if they weren't as they are now, we would most likely only be fighting Sirion and Shadowdale, but it is part of the game.
You are entitled to bitterness, you are entitled to point fingers and shout betrayal, puppet, selfish whatever you like, but in the end dust off and move on, I might be doing the same in the weeks to come.
For me Eponllyn's degradation and the likely death of Oligarch will be the death of all independence in the North, but I pray to St Jude and can only hope things might change.
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I can confirm that Catherine was the first to propose mercy on Perdan, supported heavily then by Garas in Sirion and Ecthelion as well (both because I wasn't a fan of realm destruction and because it would speed up the process of getting Oligarch :p).
As to my remarks, yes they were about the situation before the Perdan City thing and even before the looting. Actually in the beginning Oligarch never demanded Krimml for that, only to keep Greatbridge and Commonyr (and maybe Braga) and Oligarch City and to have Sirion recognize those claims. Oligarch only demanded Krimml during the time that Sirion was getting its ass kicked and they were looking for an opportunity to resettle. But yes, Oligarch did somewhat overstretch it's grasp there (or better said, I did) but the majority of the process, which was for months, we were not making such harsh demands at all and were trying to help Eponllyn, being refused constantly by Sirion. It was only at the end that this was done pretty much.
And Chamberlain, you're not making such decisions without me right? :p Catherine leaving (prob with Goran) would just end up in a completely messed up Garas xD
But yeah, should Oligarch fall I'm not really sure if I'll continue and if so, how tbh.
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Read Catherine's last roleplay... she's going nowhere lol
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Also just looking back at Gara's post... as I remember we held all the lands surrounding Krimml by right of conquest when the deals were being discussed between Sirion and Oligarch to come to Eponllyns aid.
Sirion demanded the return of Montijo and Braga so that they could access Krimml as a point from which to launch their armies without setting foot in Oligan territories. This made no sense as they would still need to traverse our territorries to get to the Eponllyn lands, so as I recall it was then that the request for Krimml was made.
If we were at peace in order to fight another realm they could have traveled our lands... and since we proposed an alliance with the request for Krimml they could have launched from Oligarch and used our smiths etc.
It's all moot but there is far more to history than a few jaded perspectives, read all the sides and find something in the middle and you are as like as not still going to be wrong, but at least you'll be nearer to the truth.
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EC's history will not be reset in any fashion other than players doing what was done on the Colonies.
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EC's history will not be reset in any fashion other than players doing what was done on the Colonies.
We realize that. ::)
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i dont see any perdan players getting this worked up, even though other players, including ones that have no current or recent problem with perdan
And when Atanamir was harassing Deytheir and Dobromir, it was not Atanamir getting worked up either.
Let those play who enjoy... most vocal Atamara sinkers were those who didnt play there.
And how many vocal Atamara sinkers no longer played there because of Atamaran attitudes, and how many left the game *before* Atamara was sunk? A game cannot be sustainable if a hegemony prevents any interaction beyond them crushing you ad nauseum until another player is too frustrated to play further.
I just see so much bickering about history and who did what wrong on these forums that I was thinking about the suggestion I made.
This is inevitable, to some degree.
I agree with Jaune that those that do not enjoy playing, could join another continent. And I'm rather sure they will, too.
Part of the problem I think is the attitude that 'if you do not like it our way, then you do not get to play on our island at all', somewhat reminiscent of older CE attitudes that brought Atamara to what it is. Who do you play with if you're continually pushing others off the island?
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I am no lover of Perdan as a concept, but in reality at least they try something different.
Not sure what you see different, as my perspective has them being their same old selves.
What I find sad in the Eponllyn situation is that, as I have said, they were a realm not afraid to be individuals who are now falling into the block...
We held out through a lot of odds. I think most of the attitude change is a result of the loss of the old guard's influence between Siana, Garas, Myrnia, and Jeroen (I think Myrnia is around still, but not as engaged) departing. List of names not exhaustive, just representative.
If we are going to rake over the last war I would also say that Eponllyn were not the drivers for peace with Perdan... they got on board before Sirion, but it was Nivemus who pushed for peace, as I'm sure you will remember Vita, Catherine was slated and slandered for not wanting to crush Perdan from many sides including many of the more actives of Eponllyn, so please don't try to make out that you were such a generous realm pushing to give them peace. Garin got that a dead Perdan left no counter weight to Sirion so came on board, but he certainly didn't instigate.
Now that you bring it up, I do remember that Catherine got a lot of slack and controversy standing up for Perdan. But I would not say that 'Eponllyn were not the drivers for peace' because internally, there was definitely a pro-survival movement just as much as ther was a *very* anti-Perdanite hateful element within Nivemus. Nivemus was no shining star in the campaign for peace either. Considering Perdan's history, I think we can both agree that Nivemus and Eponllyn were bitterly divided internally on the matter. My character was the most-supportive of Perdan's survival after Fionna was elected after Meivmayr. During Meivmayr, Jeroen was open, but skeptical. Garin was always a very calculated, neutral king in his policy statements. Most of how Eponllyn ran was that either the realm or advisors discussed a matter and he would somehow come out with a very representative-solution from the nobility's interests. I rarely saw Garin put up his own opinion besides certain character virtues/values he expected Eponlli to uphold. Or at least, thats the way I interpreted his character.
Whats more it was well known the minute that deal was signed ensured that there would be a war between Eponllyn and Perdan at some stage, they would never accept the loss of their namesake city.
Because Perdan must always have it both ways, their way.
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Part of the problem I think is the attitude that 'if you do not like it our way, then you do not get to play on our island at all', somewhat reminiscent of older CE attitudes that brought Atamara to what it is. Who do you play with if you're continually pushing others off the island?
I'd like to reinforce this.
This is not a competitive game. You get no prize for "winning." You get no praise for forcing people to do things your way.
It is in each and every player's best interests to ensure that the other players in the game are enjoying what is happening. That doesn't mean that people should stop trying to win wars—but it does mean that that should not be the focus of your existence.
If a whole bunch of people are telling you that what you're doing is upsetting and negatively affecting their overall experience playing the game, that doesn't mean you should entrench further and just ask your buddies who are doing it with you if they still think it's OK. It means you should stop and try to see it from their point of view. Really, seriously think about what you're doing, and, though it's a very hard thing to do sometimes, maybe admit that your way isn't perfect.
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Part of the problem I think is the attitude that 'if you do not like it our way, then you do not get to play on our island at all', somewhat reminiscent of older CE attitudes that brought Atamara to what it is. Who do you play with if you're continually pushing others off the island?
Not really what I intended to say here, but well.
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Also just looking back at Gara's post... as I remember we held all the lands surrounding Krimml by right of conquest when the deals were being discussed between Sirion and Oligarch to come to Eponllyns aid.
I remember this. One day, one day, I'll get everyone a new video of map histories since 2012...as I've been saying for 6 months now. Too many things...
It's all moot but there is far more to history than a few jaded perspectives
Indeed.
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Take your time, no worries :)
And concerning the remarks about Perdan City and Oligarch, there was simply no way to hold it I'm afraid. Sirion refused to sign peace at that point and we could not well take on Perdan and Vix also, or we'd be destroyed now entirely as well. Still, the latter may well happen still, but not before thousands die on the wall of Oligarch.
Problems with Eponllyn were already far before Perdan City got sieged and Garin abdicting did not help at all I think. The north is a mess now, now more than ever I'm afraid.
Where is Jeroen actually these days?
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And concerning the remarks about Perdan City and Oligarch, there was simply no way to hold it I'm afraid. Sirion refused to sign peace at that point and we could not well take on Perdan and Vix also, or we'd be destroyed now entirely as well. Still, the latter may well happen still, but not before thousands die on the wall of Oligarch.
Please do not twist things OOCly. You could have held it. You chose not to. That's IC politics, but lets leave it IC. Garas refused to sign peace, not Sirion. Sirion accepted, Garas demanded Krimml for ceasefire. You essentially chose to give up Perdan City in exchange for Krimml, but now you have neither.
Problems with Eponllyn were already far before Perdan City got sieged and Garin abdicting did not help at all I think. The north is a mess now, now more than ever I'm afraid.
Eppy had problems yes, but there was still opportunity.
Where is Jeroen actually these days?
Xavax, but I paused all my characters some weeks ago.
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Please do not twist things OOCly. You could have held it. You chose not to. That's IC politics, but lets leave it IC. Garas refused to sign peace, not Sirion. Sirion accepted, Garas demanded Krimml for ceasefire. You essentially chose to give up Perdan City in exchange for Krimml, but now you have neither.
Eppy had problems yes, but there was still opportunity.
Xavax, but I paused all my characters some weeks ago.
I'm twisting nothing OOC, there was no way to hold Perdan City with Perdan and Vix coming our way. The negotiations with Sirion would have gone nowhere, especially not in any near timeframe, as it is Sirion. Also Sirion demanded the return of several regions and the demanding of Krimml came after it had already been surrounded (see Chamberlain's story on this one). Perdan and Vix would have slaughtered us, that's simple and don't forget that we once had an agreement with Sirion which they broke once they switched from Ecthelion to Ivo. So there is little trust left between either parties.
And there is still opportunity for Eponllyn as I believe they've been promised Oligarch City.
And I noticed Seoras being gone, but seems you paused them all, too bad. Although I must admit that I'm leaning towards pausing more of my chars as well. Feel kinda guilty for leaving Luria Borreal with even less nobles though.
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realms should absolutely be destroyed because otherwise you end up in situations like these where the history is so entrenched its impossible for people to see things beyond their own jaded perspective. there needs to be a cycle of old realms dying and new ones rising up. and it doesn't require island resets, just players losing this ridiculous attitude that their realm is something precious and sacrosanct that must not be taken away or it simply ruins the entire game, wah wah.
there is an element of risk in this game that makes it more exciting than others. i dont get why so many players seem to think that eliminating that risk is a good thing.
the people who complain about perdan or any other strong realm's tactics and accuse such realms of only caring about winning need to take a good long look at themselves. if youre such a purehearted roleplayer not concerned with winning, why are you so concerned with losing? this is just something bad that happened to your character, roleplay through it. you have all sorts of layers of complexity being added to your character's story and a million ways to move forward.
also most if not all of you have been on the other side of the coin in some other realm and some of you wrote just as long essays justifying similar actions to the ones youre writing essays decrying now.
seriously smh, participation trophies for all of you
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Of course there are situations where realms should be destroyed, but at the same time I personally don't do it too quickly. So when Perdan lost the great war, I too pushed for not destroying them. But in the process we had in fact already destroyed Westmoor.
There is quite a difference though between having a fun war and ultimately someone being destroyed and the whole gang bang let's utterly crush someone and move on.
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why are you so concerned with losing?
Its not about singular instances. You know full well I have roleplayed through loss as much as anyone else. And risk, you know I have pushed some of my characters into extremely-unlikely risks that don't always pan out. Nor is it about characters, realms, religions, guilds in any specific instance. Its about an overall trend by some.
also most if not all of you have been on the other side of the coin in some other realm
Which is why I've tried to keep the other side's perspective in mind when I am the 'victor'. Hence being open to Perdan's survival. Or advocating delaying striking Barca and Asylon as long as possible, from Luria etc. I cannot deny that Lorgan influenced me in this regard with how he has played Dunbor and OOC discussions about Fingolfin. And why it is all the more frustrating to have had Perdan claim 'small realms, limited wars', and then do just the opposite with fellow players that were for all those things, when we should be working with each other to show how it can work, not how it can turn into another gangbang. That, may really be the crux of it for me. Here I thought we were working around a table with fellow players, despite our characters fighting a war, to show a better, more balanced way of playing out a story, and then they just wipe us off the board with the same old styles as before because WINNING! And yes, I find it quite suspicious that this happened at the same time that I was told (IRC) many older players had returned to Perdan, and at the same time reports of increased OOC drama started occurring inside Perdan.
EDIT: I think I do this out of twofold reasoning being IC 'give them plenty of rope to hang themselves with' infowar style, combined with OOC giving players opportunity to shift gears when things aren't going well.
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So when Perdan lost the great war, I too pushed for not destroying them. But in the process we had in fact already destroyed Westmoor.
I remember resistance to even that, at least within Eponllyn. We very much had a perspective of 'why are you fighting us? we do not want to kill you, but you are demanding our life or yours. stop being perdan's puppet', along with 'well, if you wont stop trying to kill us, i guess we must exact justice and since you're trying to kill us, that means execution. but you know...you could stop. please.' attitude. I mean, Zakky's character did not *help* anyone like Westmoor at all, but other than that, Eponllyn felt Westmoor suicided. I felt unfortunate for them as they were just caught in the middle, just like Eponllyn was in the middle. Both the fighting grounds of larger hatreds between Perdan and Sirion.
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This is not a competitive game. You get no prize for "winning." You get no praise for forcing people to do things your way.
A big circlejerk is its own reward, though, isn't it?
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This entire topic is a big disappointment to me.
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Vita my character DID help Westmoor. Meivmayr was in Westmoor as a Westmoorian noble from the beginning of the war until Westmoor died. After Westmoor got destroyed he moved to Perdan and became their king :p
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I did not say he did not help Westmoor, I said:
Zakky's character did not *help* anyone like Westmoor at all
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Vita my character DID help Westmoor. Meivmayr was in Westmoor as a Westmoorian noble from the beginning of the war until Westmoor died. After Westmoor got destroyed he moved to Perdan and became their king :p
To summarize, he said you made us dislike Westmoor (had to read it a few times myself as well :p) and yeah Westmoor had the problem that it was A) trying to kill Eponllyn and B) in the way of fighting Perdan and finally hurting them for a change which was not possible with Westmoor still around. These ultimately led to it's destruction.
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so westmoor got eaten for getting in the way of another war... why is this so familiar...
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so westmoor got eaten for getting in the way of another war... why is this so familiar...
Now you're just reading selectively. If Westmoor had signed peace, or not tried to burn Sirion and destroy Eponllyn in the process, then not of that would've happened.
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im actually referring to the irony of eponllyn players' objections to perdan's actions in what seems like extremely similar circumstances.
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im actually referring to the irony of eponllyn players' objections to perdan's actions in what seems like extremely similar circumstances.
In part I see your logic, but Westmoor refused to surrender throughout the entire war. Eponllyn did reach a point where they were willing to surrender and terms could have been made if the true goal had been to burn the north. So there is an important difference there in my opinion.
I should prob not defend Eponllyn right now though as they intend to wipe us out in stead now...:p
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right, eppy was not fully destroyed though.
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right, eppy was not fully destroyed though.
actually, it's kind of worse that it wasn't. It was basically castrated and left to die a slow death from weakness.
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i actually agree fully, but then what do you want? people complain when you destroy a realm, people complain when you cripple a realm, people basically complain about any form of loss. you knew what you were getting into when you signed up, this isnt a text based version of wow where all movement is forward no matter how bad you screw up.
like it or not and whether certain devs agree or not bm is not just a competitive game, but an intensely competitive game by its very nature. you have competition within realms for titles and competition between realms over lands. remove that competition and you may as well be running an rp forum. object to that competition and youre fighting against human nature.
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i actually agree fully, but then what do you want? people complain when you destroy a realm, people complain when you cripple a realm, people basically complain about any form of loss. you knew what you were getting into when you signed up, this isnt a text based version of wow where all movement is forward no matter how bad you screw up.
like it or not and whether certain devs agree or not bm is not just a competitive game, but an intensely competitive game by its very nature. you have competition within realms for titles and competition between realms over lands. remove that competition and you may as well be running an rp forum. object to that competition and youre fighting against human nature.
As long as Eponllyn can keep it's nobles moral high enough they have enough of a fighting chance actually to grow bigger again. I think this is always better than complete destruction. Also of course there should be loss for stupid mistakes, or even for ballsy moves, but what frustrates me the most personally is the risk aversion tactic that most people apply when they're only willing to start a war when they know from the start that they will dominate another realm. Such is competitive yes, but one that does frustrate me tbh. It in part let to Atamara's situation and EC may well follow suit if we let things play out for another year or so and that's the only thing that worries me on EC. Not so much whether or not Oligarch falls, but the great clumps of alliances deadlocking everything.
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Alliance clumps will happen,no matter what continent.
Edit:Not counting war islands