BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: GundamMerc on July 19, 2016, 03:35:48 PM
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Would you all like to know what's wrong with this game? Everyone plays a logical character. Not only is this highly unrealistic (even by modern day standards), but is rather boring. It would not be far-fetched at all to say this is a large source of "peaceMaster" style of play, as well as the monolithic alliance structures that go around.
I'm not saying that there should be more mavericks in the game, but at the very least there should be more characters willing to follow irrational leaders. I mean, ESA has got to be the most secular religion I've ever seen in this game. SA was bad, but at least they tried to follow the religion's teachings. 3/4 of the members don't even listen to what the FOUNDER of the religion says, then decry someone else who says the founder's words verbatim.
There's enough people willing to be the lead irrational (or at least interesting) character (Mayhem, Kuriga, the player of the kabrinski family, Jevondair, etc.) but very few people are willing to have their character rationalize a reason for following them. And please, don't go "But it goes against my character's personality/rp!", that's a cop-out and you know it. There is absolutely no reason that a character should ever be immutable, unless they've become a god-figure, and last I checked, that's happened once, on War Island.
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Deity immutability is a recent historical development from Christian influence not common in roman, greek, and other pre-christian mythologies.
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Come follow Mariah with her religion of "Burn the corrupt"
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i totally disagree. the game doesn't need more illogical characters, it needs more logical players who dream big, take risks, and are capable of carrying out plans, whether they roleplay their characters as illogical or not.
illogical characters are almost universally a preemptive excuse to fail by players who like to think they are shaking things up and making the game better, but in their hearts know they arent really capable of more than temporarily hijacking realms and causing chaos.
ive only ever seen dustole/kabrinski play highly logical and cunning characters actually, thats why players were quite often willing to follow him in his grand plans. same for jevondair, you may have noticed that selenia only became an illogical magnus 2.0 when it became obvious that xavax was doomed to failure.
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Would you all like to know what's wrong with this game? Everyone plays a logical character. Not only is this highly unrealistic (even by modern day standards), but is rather boring. It would not be far-fetched at all to say this is a large source of "peaceMaster" style of play, as well as the monolithic alliance structures that go around.
I'm not saying that there should be more mavericks in the game, but at the very least there should be more characters willing to follow irrational leaders. I mean, ESA has got to be the most secular religion I've ever seen in this game. SA was bad, but at least they tried to follow the religion's teachings. 3/4 of the members don't even listen to what the FOUNDER of the religion says, then decry someone else who says the founder's words verbatim.
There's enough people willing to be the lead irrational (or at least interesting) character (Mayhem, Kuriga, the player of the kabrinski family, Jevondair, etc.) but very few people are willing to have their character rationalize a reason for following them. And please, don't go "But it goes against my character's personality/rp!", that's a cop-out and you know it. There is absolutely no reason that a character should ever be immutable, unless they've become a god-figure, and last I checked, that's happened once, on War Island.
Well there is a difference between building a position of power, supporters and plan to do crazy things and just going at it and asking people to follow you in something crazy. Zhukov had virtually no supporters apart from Luria Borreal and from what I gather did little to try to get them.
To say everyone is playing like that is to discredit a lot of players I think, but there is some nuance to all this as well.
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Zhukov didnt even have supporters in LB from what i can tell. it was exactly like he did in hd, a double war dec on larger realms, maybe assuming other realms would jump in and help but not making the effort necessary to build a coalition beforehand. no one should be surprised by the results.
that kind of poorly planned attempt to shake up the status quo actually makes players LESS inclined to try to change things, not more. just adds to all the examples of attempts that didnt work and makes firebrands even less trusted.
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I wasn't talking about Luria Boreal, I know that was a mess of retardedness on my part (plus my character is a bit self-destructive right now). I'm more talking in response to a certain few characters in ESA, namely Cador and one of the priests of ESA.
Please don't assume that because I did something stupid, I'm talking in direct response to the consequences of it. The reason I'm putting this up here is because I'm tired of characters that point out the logic of a situation, or players that are so arrogant as to think that I don't see it OOC. Instead of being "he's a troublemaker, I'll avoid that!" because your character is an ambitionless, risk-averse know-it-all, how about you start supporting people who try to do something against the current for once?
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I wasn't talking about Luria Boreal, I know that was a mess of retardedness on my part (plus my character is a bit self-destructive right now). I'm more talking in response to a certain few characters in ESA, namely Cador and one of the priests of ESA.
Please don't assume that because I did something stupid, I'm talking in direct response to the consequences of it. The reason I'm putting this up here is because I'm tired of characters that point out the logic of a situation, or players that are so arrogant as to think that I don't see it OOC. Instead of being "he's a troublemaker, I'll avoid that!" because your character is an ambitionless, risk-averse know-it-all, how about you start supporting people who try to do something against the current for once?
I assumed wrong then on the first part.
There is a part of me that definately agrees with you in that there are (too many) players that play their chars as standard and will never consider either power plays or following interesting plots. On the flipside however I've found enough people willing to do it. To speak from my own experience, hell Oligarch still has 13 nobles left and has had more in the past, you think any of them rationally thought "hey this sounds like a smart move for my char, let's stay safe"?
The same with my experiences from Caergoth where the players jointly decided to risk the realm entirely and just war Suville and see whatever comes of it after there was a environment created where that was possible. My point here being, there are enough players that do either want it, or will follow it if it's executed properly. Go search them out, but for many it will take a while before they consider following you, that's true.
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gundam, you could maybe spare other players from your characters self-destructive tendencies.
the reason no one was going to support you in luria is because there are bigger things at stake in dwilight currently. dwilight needs to be pushed in certain directions at the right times in the coming months if it is ever going to be a healthy continent again.
the problem with the things you do is you dont consider the long term, you blindly jump in saying"things must be changed and im the man to do it RIGHT NOW!" and expect people to jump on board with no warning or discussion or any consideration of what THEIR goals might be. thats why your track record of success is so poor and your effect on the game so negligible.
you would be much better off talking to players who want to change the game for the better and finding ways to help them out, or at least going to other players/characters who might support your plans and actually finding out if they will and discussing it beforehand.
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gundam, you could maybe spare other players from your characters self-destructive tendencies.
the reason no one was going to support you in luria is because there are bigger things at stake in dwilight currently. dwilight needs to be pushed in certain directions at the right times in the coming months if it is ever going to be a healthy continent again.
the problem with the things you do is you dont consider the long term, you blindly jump in saying"things must be changed and im the man to do it RIGHT NOW!" and expect people to jump on board with no warning or discussion or any consideration of what THEIR goals might be. thats why your track record of success is so poor and your effect on the game so negligible.
you would be much better off talking to players who want to change the game for the better and finding ways to help them out, or at least going to other players/characters who might support your plans and actually finding out if they will and discussing it beforehand.
And again, I was not speaking of what I was doing. The problem is there is only one type of character people will follow on a plot, and that's the secular, work behind the scenes type. There are hardly any characters that actually act out of actual religious beliefs. I found that out when I tried to get ESA to do something, anything, by quoting from the teachings of Seoras liberally. You want to know what their counter arguments were? It wasn't "That's not what he meant by that, he meant this <insert arbitrary reason here>". Oh if only it were a matter of theocratic differences. No, the reason they argued against me was for one secular reason or another, from "we should be battling monsters" to "but war is bad it hurts the peasants". I mean, for goodness sake, your character is in a religion! At least pay lip service and pretend you're following the tenants, even if your character has no intention to.
Very few characters in religion are actually religious. People who actually roleplay in such a way are inevitably called fanatics for their unwillingness to be "tolerant" or whatnot.
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dude youre very obviously speaking about what you were doing because you keep bringing it up as your sole example.
on the other hand i am not just ragging on you for one thing you did, but trying to draw your attention to the flaws in the "irrational" playstyle you are advocating.
to get anything major to happen in this game takes a long time because you will need the support of a lot of players to make it happen.
there's basically only three ways to do that: take rulership or de facto rulership of a large and powerful realm AND have major support and respect from its nobles so they dont abandon you or kick you out, or develop a reputation so good that people will believe your ideas can work no matter how ridiculous they would seem from anyone else, or months of ooc plotting with likeminded players (who are also going to have to respect your word).
youll notice that hijacking tiny and less active realms and throwing them into impossible situations is not on the list. that makes people trust you less, making it harder for future plans to succeed.
i do not view any of the various ig religions as being a useful tool for change at all anymore. most players dont care that much about them in the first place, and they are all either too small to make a difference or part of the status quo themselves.
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dude youre very obviously speaking about what you were doing because you keep bringing it up as your sole example.
on the other hand i am not just ragging on you for one thing you did, but trying to draw your attention to the flaws in the "irrational" playstyle you are advocating.
to get anything major to happen in this game takes a long time because you will need the support of a lot of players to make it happen.
there's basically only three ways to do that: take rulership or de facto rulership of a large and powerful realm AND have major support and respect from its nobles so they dont abandon you or kick you out, or develop a reputation so good that people will believe your ideas can work no matter how ridiculous they would seem from anyone else, or months of ooc plotting with likeminded players (who are also going to have to respect your word).
youll notice that hijacking tiny and less active realms and throwing them into impossible situations is not on the list. that makes people trust you less, making it harder for future plans to succeed.
i do not view any of the various ig religions as being a useful tool for change at all anymore. most players dont care that much about them in the first place, and they are all either too small to make a difference or part of the status quo themselves.
dude, I have this feeling that you're not bothering to read my posts, because I was talking about stuff that happened before I was even ruler. but yeah, keep trying to spin it like I have this vendetta, because that seems to be the only way you know how to reply to anything I say.
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i mean given that you just ignored 90% of my post to fixate on your egoic denial of a very true but very minor point in the grand scheme of the argument im trying to make, i think we know who doesn't read posts here, or at least doesn't comprehend what they read.
i forgot that trying to help you is useless, have fun
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Spearhold is full of deviants and sadists, probably why we have so much fun.
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I wouldn't flatter myself too much into thinking Zhukov's antics are the reason Cador's on edge. Cador has been wanting LB wiped off the map since the moment Arkady seceded, because he thinks the entire realm makes a mockery of the name Luria. It's vengeance, a tad on the petty side. Zhukov is simply a spanner in the works to him. And he's a general, so of course he would laugh derisively at the sack of Shinnen. Is that not good noble behavior?
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I wouldn't flatter myself too much into thinking Zhukov's antics are the reason Cador's on edge. Cador has been wanting LB wiped off the map since the moment Arkady seceded, because he thinks the entire realm makes a mockery of the name Luria. It's vengeance, a tad on the petty side. Zhukov is simply a spanner in the works to him. And he's a general, so of course he would laugh derisively at the sack of Shinnen. Is that not good noble behavior?
I never thought that Zhukov was the reason Cador was acting the way he did. I just have to wonder what is in the Elder's minds when he blatantly goes against the religion's tenets. At least give him a wrist slap or something...
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What tenets? You seem to think Cador's a pacifist. He's most certainly a war hawk. I'd even wager he's shed a lot more blood than Zhukov has these past weeks and months.
And why would they give Cador a slap on the wrist? Zhukov is the one who tried butting into Westfold's war against Swordfell, then changed his mind and went for Astrum instead, soundly getting beaten before having his capital sacked and the holy site defiled by Astroists.
You basically called a crusade, and then two weeks later got Rome sacked by Saracens.
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What's a Rugby team doing in rome?
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What tenets? You seem to think Cador's a pacifist. He's most certainly a war hawk. I'd even wager he's shed a lot more blood than Zhukov has these past weeks and months.
And why would they give Cador a slap on the wrist? Zhukov is the one who tried butting into Westfold's war against Swordfell, then changed his mind and went for Astrum instead, soundly getting beaten before having his capital sacked and the holy site defiled by Astroists.
You basically called a crusade, and then two weeks later got Rome sacked by Saracens.
What blood? Luria Nova hasn't been to war since the last coalition team-up against them. And every time I have tried to get you to engage in some kind of conflict, your character has been like "no we should fight monsters". You seem to have a very strange, deluded sense of war hawk if you think that fighting monsters and undead is "war" beyond what anyone else does.
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Are the Bloodstars that picky then? I went through two eighty-man cavalry units in a few weeks, all killed fighting hordes. The other knights as well. So while LB spent who knows how long trekking through the brush to and from Astrum, LN was spilling blood every single day.
I also offered help to Westfold long before Zhukov got the idea, but was rejected. Then after Zhukov changed his mind and decided suddenly Astrum was gonna be attacked, I suggested a good old fashioned brawl between the Lurias, which was promptly rejected by Zhukov.
As people said, yelling and stomping your foot isn't going to rally anyone to your cause. Zhukov is just a less entertaining Arkady at this point.
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Are the Bloodstars that picky then? I went through two eighty-man cavalry units in a few weeks, all killed fighting hordes. The other knights as well. So while LB spent who knows how long trekking through the brush to and from Astrum, LN was spilling blood every single day.
I also offered help to Westfold long before Zhukov got the idea, but was rejected. Then after Zhukov changed his mind and decided suddenly Astrum was gonna be attacked, I suggested a good old fashioned brawl between the Lurias, which was promptly rejected by Zhukov.
As people said, yelling and stomping your foot isn't going to rally anyone to your cause. Zhukov is just a less entertaining Arkady at this point.
Something you're unaware of is that the war declaration on Astrum was a negotiation on the rulers channel, and something that was discussed between myself, and the rulers of Astrum and Swordfell. It wasn't something that just randomly happened, so please don't come to me with your ignorant assumptions about what you think occurred.
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Are the Bloodstars that picky then? I went through two eighty-man cavalry units in a few weeks, all killed fighting hordes.
If I may offer my brain juices into this Bloodstars, what on Battlemaster is cavalry doing fighting rogue force? ???
Something you're unaware of is that the war declaration on Astrum was a negotiation on the rulers channel, and something that was discussed between myself, and the rulers of Astrum and Swordfell. It wasn't something that just randomly happened, so please don't come to me with your ignorant assumptions about what you think occurred.
Why fight when you can negotiate? - Jack Sparrow quote.
I think Gundam is doing it right, just not many people aware of it 8)
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Eww... cavalry against rogues? That is not cost efficient at all lol.
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Eww... cavalry against rogues? That is not cost efficient at all lol.
If you time it well, it can be. Timing it right can be hard.
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If you time it well, it can be. Timing it right can be hard.
Exactly. Can't predict monsters and undead. Your charge will either hit or miss. Cavalry without that initial charge is like archers with R1.
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more like ridiculously expensive infantry, but let's not nitpick
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more like ridiculously expensive infantry, but let's not nitpick
Except you did just nitpick. I concur with this nitpick though.
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now youre nitpicking my nitpicking this is just a completely unacceptable turn of events
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My character Karibash for the past 30 or so IG years has been completely delusional and mad and only kept in line by faithful retainers. His issue is he's a zealot and his god bids him to kill, he believes himself immortal, etc etc
His son in Xavax, Godric, is similarly religious but in more conventional ways befitting the culture. He has his own baggage and things but the outcome (duel me you cowards, with the internal monologue being Tor give me strength to kill my foes and honour your name) appears largely the same. And before Taselak fell Wulfric was similar to Godric because they're twins (!!!).
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My character Karibash for the past 30 or so IG years has been completely delusional and mad and only kept in line by faithful retainers. His issue is he's a zealot and his god bids him to kill, he believes himself immortal, etc etc
His son in Xavax, Godric, is similarly religious but in more conventional ways befitting the culture. He has his own baggage and things but the outcome (duel me you cowards, with the internal monologue being Tor give me strength to kill my foes and honour your name) appears largely the same. And before Taselak fell Wulfric was similar to Godric because they're twins (!!!).
And where is Karibash?! He skipped out on a whole war!
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His son in Xavax, Godric, is similarly religious but in more conventional ways befitting the culture. He has his own baggage and things but the outcome (duel me you cowards, with the internal monologue being Tor give me strength to kill my foes and honour your name) appears largely the same. And before Taselak fell Wulfric was similar to Godric because they're twins (!!!).
In contrast, Aramon's family is based in Hilly Holes, a region that has been part of Outer Tilog for centuries by this point. Despite coming from a family that's essentially Daimon worshiping, torture happy, savage cannibals, Aramon tries his best to be the exemplar of "white knight": upright, loyal, and moral; an attitude belying his physical appearance of a savage looking tattoo covered giant with filed teeth. His family is also the reason he tends to call on the Abyss when swearing and has issues with religion (he'd probably love the Daishi religion, too bad Nothoi ended up with the sociopathic anatomist Drawulf instead :P).
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Stegman Hemmings debunks this thread. I almost feel bad for ordering his execution.
I will say this though, few people seem willing to risk loosing in a game that cannot be 'won.' In my mind, adversity forces evolution. Hatred between characters and realms should be encouraged because hey, that's how it went! It's realism. Characters come into their won when things don't go according to plan. The most boring characters I've made so far was Rynn, Kalixta, and Mavia, all of whom went more or less according to plan. Rania and Selenia, however, were total anomalies who've been defined by their losses and taken on a sort of life of there own.
Loosing is a critical part of this game, and too many people avoid it when they should be embracing it.
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absolutely agree with jevondair
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for the first time in like 5-6 months
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Stegman Hemmings debunks this thread. I almost feel bad for ordering his execution.
I will say this though, few people seem willing to risk loosing in a game that cannot be 'won.' In my mind, adversity forces evolution. Hatred between characters and realms should be encouraged because hey, that's how it went! It's realism. Characters come into their won when things don't go according to plan. The most boring characters I've made so far was Rynn, Kalixta, and Mavia, all of whom went more or less according to plan. Rania and Selenia, however, were total anomalies who've been defined by their losses and taken on a sort of life of there own.
Loosing is a critical part of this game, and too many people avoid it when they should be embracing it.
Completely agree, when ii first started playing I loved causing conflict and didn't care if I lost any titles, only just found that love once again. With all the stuff going on in Dwilight I've had more fun in the last few months than in four years or so.
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Stegman Hemmings debunks this thread. I almost feel bad for ordering his execution.
I will say this though, few people seem willing to risk loosing in a game that cannot be 'won.' In my mind, adversity forces evolution. Hatred between characters and realms should be encouraged because hey, that's how it went! It's realism. Characters come into their won when things don't go according to plan. The most boring characters I've made so far was Rynn, Kalixta, and Mavia, all of whom went more or less according to plan. Rania and Selenia, however, were total anomalies who've been defined by their losses and taken on a sort of life of there own.
Loosing is a critical part of this game, and too many people avoid it when they should be embracing it.
What did he actually contribute to the game in the long-run? All he was was a short-time fad. An annoying one at that.
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There is absolutely no reason that a character should ever be immutable, unless they've become a god-figure, and last I checked, that's happened once, on War Island.
This sound interesting. Can you tell us this story?
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A God figure on War Island? :o
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You know, Korlock? The Great Midget.
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Zeph killed a midget that wouldn't stay dead.