BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => East Island => Topic started by: Gabanus family on December 21, 2016, 09:23:07 AM
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To be very honest I'm very upset by this and am not sure yet what kind of response to give this.
This disturbes me a lot. I love JeVondair, but Selenia should have stayed dead.
Perhaps I'll be able to give a more balanced reaction to this in a few days, but my first inclination was close to a rage quite cause of this ***
*Edit, slightly editted it cause my initial response what bit too much.
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To be very honest I'm very upset by this and am not sure yet what kind of response to give this.
This disturbes me a lot. I love JeVondair, but Selenia should have stayed dead.
Perhaps I'll be able to give a more balanced reaction to this in a few days, but my first inclination was close to a rage quite cause of this ***
The options to do this are open to all players.
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The options to do this are open to all players.
So you just explained to me. Still I think this is very bad nonetheless and although my frustration is slightly lowered, to me this should not be in the game at all. It ruins it to a certain degree for me and magic was already too powerful to begin with. Now it has godlike abilities as well...
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As a character, I am a bit disturbed as well. Now everyone who know will rush and go find that thing. Brock unable to respond IC much as he need settle down and rethink the whole picture. Sometimes what people been telling him is not the whole picture. Oh well, Nivemus is far in the north away from the south to understand things in the south.
As a player however I would love to think that Xavax is having the Rise of Phoenix thing as Roleplay stuffs and so on. That said, miracles do happen before from what I heard there are many stories. Kurlock who died 3 times in War Islands? :P
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That miracle is no longer possible for us older players. It changed from new 'character' protection to new 'player' protection.
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Honestly, what's to get upset about? The character or allied adventurer used a legit and legal magical scroll in an intended manner. They were either extremely lucky or extremely well prepared to have had a scroll to hand exactly when it was needed. Those scrolls are completely random and require time and effort to collect, and could at any stage been lost, stolen, used or traded. Good on them, I say.
I tend to think rather than raising her from the dead so much it's turned aside a mortal wound, though the RP will bear that out. People wouldn't be upset if the scroll had been used on a character or unit while they were still alive, so there's no special black or necromantic magic necessarily involved. Since there's only one noble per island, I bet anyone in that same position would use it for their favourite character. I would, on this island.
Also yeah the South island code was particularly hinky...
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Xavaxs position hasn't materially improved any because of it.
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People wouldn't be upset if the scroll had been used on a character or unit while they were still alive....
I'm pretty sure that's the part that people are kinda peeved about. Players knowingly choose the hero class with the knowledge that they can be struck down in battle and killed. While certainly scrolls can be rare, it does lessen the importance of the class's vulnerability.
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I still reckon the chance of getting a scroll of that type when and where it was needed is a gamble that has and should be rewarded, regardless of class.
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I truly hope BM goes back to its roots and be less high fantasy with all the scrolls and portal events. I am fine with unique items but scrolls and portal events are too high fantasy. I've played this game for a decade without worrying too much about those two until recently.
There are several factors that caused this. Mainly increase in common items. It made crafting of scrolls way too easy. Have you seen Sirion vs Oligarch? I swear Sirion has a mage guild or something. They fire off so many spells whenever they siege to take out Garas, you wonder what game you are playing. Feels more like a text version of Age of Wonders than BM sometimes.
Also, portal stones are used like tactical nukes. I think they should not affect any in game stats anymore. When portal stones lower RC stats, that is crossing the line. If you know how much efforts and resources that go into building good ones only to see a dev drop by to lower their stats because of some random event triggered by a random advy, there is a problem. Either that or 10k CS monster showing up out of nowhere to kick you in the sides.
I don't mind portal events providing interesting events but they should be restricted to RP related stuff only and not have an actual impact in the game.
This game was known for its low fantasy. Unless the game is heading toward high fantasy, it should keep some distance between magic and itself.
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I actually find this to be more exciting and enjoyable. Honestly a war can have a period of dull marching back and forth to and from battle, so having these unexpected events occur is very fun. That and the fact that all of the events I've seen from portals have been extremely random. I mean, one of them had a horde of random mob enemies attack the very place it was meant to save (speaking of Donghaiwei during the HD vs Astrum war). If portals became just RP events only, then you'd have the same issue that you have with religion, where it doesn't even matter for the most part and no one bothers to participate.
Also, low fantasy does not mean no magic. It means that it does not have all the attributes of high fantasy. So magic does exist, and can have effects, but it is by no means available to the average person and requires extraordinary measures to bring about. The main focus in Battlemaster in a low fantasy sense is instead on the fact that other species do not exist, with an arguable exception of Outer Tilog and Sirion. And even then, you could say that Outer Tilogians are just insane and the Sirion has humans who cut their ears weird in some sort of culture oddity, when looking from the outside in. In addition, battles are not decided by magic, but by strength of arms in the traditional medieval sense.
That is what makes it low fantasy, not this misconception that it has to have a complete absence of magic or supernatural occurrences.
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Sounds like an opportunity to split the game into high/no fantasy. I would adore a game in the style of the PC Masters of Magic or Warlord game.
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We already have a rather high fantasy continent. It is called Beluaterra. EC shouldn't be seeing so much magic. Dwilight? not sure.
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I actually find this to be more exciting and enjoyable. Honestly a war can have a period of dull marching back and forth to and from battle, so having these unexpected events occur is very fun. That and the fact that all of the events I've seen from portals have been extremely random. I mean, one of them had a horde of random mob enemies attack the very place it was meant to save (speaking of Donghaiwei during the HD vs Astrum war). If portals became just RP events only, then you'd have the same issue that you have with religion, where it doesn't even matter for the most part and no one bothers to participate.
Also, low fantasy does not mean no magic. It means that it does not have all the attributes of high fantasy. So magic does exist, and can have effects, but it is by no means available to the average person and requires extraordinary measures to bring about. The main focus in Battlemaster in a low fantasy sense is instead on the fact that other species do not exist, with an arguable exception of Outer Tilog and Sirion. And even then, you could say that Outer Tilogians are just insane and the Sirion has humans who cut their ears weird in some sort of culture oddity, when looking from the outside in. In addition, battles are not decided by magic, but by strength of arms in the traditional medieval sense.
That is what makes it low fantasy, not this misconception that it has to have a complete absence of magic or supernatural occurrences.
I agree. Heck, Conan The Barbarian is considered "low fantasy" and look at how often he encounters the magical, from supernatural creatures to sorcerers. I wouldn't object to magic being more limited in the game, but if it is, the potency should be boosted. Magical Items should be rare, perhaps each island having only a selected handful that turn up from time to time and disappear just as mysteriously that have such an impact on gameplay the entire island stands up and takes notice when one turns up. Scrolls should be as rare as rooster teeth but powerful enough to turn the tide of a battle for the user, etc.
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I agree. Heck, Conan The Barbarian is considered "low fantasy" and look at how often he encounters the magical, from supernatural creatures to sorcerers. I wouldn't object to magic being more limited in the game, but if it is, the potency should be boosted. Magical Items should be rare, perhaps each island having only a selected handful that turn up from time to time and disappear just as mysteriously that have such an impact on gameplay the entire island stands up and takes notice when one turns up. Scrolls should be as rare as rooster teeth but powerful enough to turn the tide of a battle for the user, etc.
I agree with them being rare but turning a tide of a battle? It takes too much effort in BM to organize military and make them work. If I have to deal with some scrolls that just win you a battle and wipe my army out, I doubt I will bother to play this game for that long.
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I agree with them being rare but turning a tide of a battle? It takes too much effort in BM to organize military and make them work. If I have to deal with some scrolls that just win you a battle and wipe my army out, I doubt I will bother to play this game for that long.
What I mean is it should be rare, but equally powerful and meaningful. Ideally I'd like to see it where you could go for a hundred battles and not see a single scroll used, but when one is, it is an event. It might rain stones down on the enemy army, or strike with force enough to tear the walls of a city down a level, or raise a unit of undead to fight alongside the caster's realm for a turn, or even raise a freshly dead character back to life. Perhaps it can be balanced (beyond the rarity) but having some factor of randomness, perhaps if whatever RNG roll is made under a certain threshold, the effect is reversed: the stones fall on the casters army, the walls are repaired instead, the undead are angry at being disturbed and fight against the caster, or the caster himself drops dead. Magic right now feels a bit like D&D's longsword+1 combined with a Diablo-esque random name generator. How many Items are in the game with no description or care given beyond the bonus it gives?
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It might rain stones down on the enemy army
Well if it is as powerful as it sounds, it will be very very difficult to cast.
strike with force enough to tear the walls of a city down a level
There is already a scroll that does this although weaker
raise a unit of undead to fight alongside the caster's realm for a turn
There is a scroll that raises undead but unless you are an attacker, they will not side with you
even raise a freshly dead character back to life
Well we already have that. There should definitely be some serious and permanent penalties for returning from the gate of hell.
RNG roll is made under a certain threshold, the effect is reversed...
Certainly. I hope there is a chance of magic completely backfiring and getting rid of all your spellcasting skills at once.
Magic right now feels a bit like D&D's longsword+1 combined with a Diablo-esque random name generator. How many Items are in the game with no description or care given beyond the bonus it gives?
It is the job of each item owner to put item descriptions. You can't simple make the game generate this all the time. Either you will run into many items having common descriptions or it will require too much work for what little worth it has.
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There is already a scroll that does this although weaker.
I'm aware, one of my Advies had a Scroll of Hammerfall created.
Certainly. I hope there is a chance of magic completely backfiring and getting rid of all your spellcasting skills at once.
You sure you don't just want to play Crusader Kings 2 instead? ::)
It is the job of each item owner to put item descriptions. You can't simple make the game generate this all the time. Either you will run into many items having common descriptions or it will require too much work for what little worth it has.
I know, I've only played BM since 2007, I've even wrote a couple! :p That was the point of my comparison with D&D's Longsword+1, there shouldn't be items of "little worth" in a low magic setting like BM is supposed to have. To expand the example, I feel items in BM should be more like artifacts in AD&D and earlier, there should only be a handful per island (that are recycled) and when they show up it's a status quo shaking event that encourages roleplaying and storytelling.
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I told JeVondair this in private also. My objection to this has nothing to do with the JeVondair family, the player, the consequences it has in game, or the roleplay opportunities. My problem is with the impact magic currently has on BM especially on islands other than BT (and maybe Dwilight).
BM is called battlemaster for a reason and not spellmaster, I believe that's another game. For me at least this game resolves around medieval based warfare and roleplaying which I both enjoy and participate in. But these last few months I've seen the impact of magic be so large that it really is slowly pushing me to quit BM. I have done all I could to turn it into a positive thing which is why Garas is currently blind and we turned it into huge roleplay turn. But these last few months he's been critically wounded twice, being out for like a week twice as they tried to sack Oligarch. He's lost all his hours two or 3 turns and I've seen dozen cases of equipment permanently damaged on multiple chars multiple times. At this point they do more damage through magic then anything else and despite us turning it into proper RP (cause the ones who use it don't even try to RP anything) I am completely fed up with it. The ressurrection of Selenia was only the drop for me to go on a short rage, but has nothing to do with the player. I love the way it's being roleplayed and what I hear is happening in Xavax, but to me it should simply not have been possible in game. Even then you'd have more than enough to RP about.
To me magic is ruining the game for me and has no to maybe a limited impact place on islands outside of BT (was a reason I never played on BT untill Atamara was sunk). That was the point I attempt(ed) to bring accross. I am even very close of just executing every advy we find, but I didn't want to be the bastard that does that and ruin the fun for others.
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I'm on EC 31 days and JeVondair's ressurection is the first magical thing I saw happening there (and not exactly "saw" as my character was so far away from it that only stories reached him). I am yet to see anything magical on Dwillight. It appears to me that you just happen to be fighting against a realm that's all about magic. Thus it's an incidental thing and not the whole BM broken cause of "too much" magic. RP a crusade against magicians or something.
I am even very close of just executing every advy we find, but I didn't want to be the bastard that does that and ruin the fun for others.
Adventurers being .exe (cutable) is part of the BM mechanics the same as the scrolls that bug you so much. You're being unfair to yourself when you restrain yourself from taking advantage of one when someone else is taking advantage of the other. I wouldn't hesitate to shank the advy if I had a really good reason.
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I'm on EC 31 days and JeVondair's ressurection is the first magical thing I saw happening there (and not exactly "saw" as my character was so far away from it that only stories reached him). I am yet to see anything magical on Dwillight. It appears to me that you just happen to be fighting against a realm that's all about magic. Thus it's an incidental thing and not the whole BM broken cause of "too much" magic. RP a crusade against magicians or something.
To a certain extend we're already doing so. Magic is forbidden in Oligarch and we've condemned it always. Our rhethoric on it is very severe. But the magic that's used on EC is not an incident but constant. Perhaps it's used less in the south, but we don't see a round of battle without magic cast against us. The impact is far too great and it's ruining the game for me at this point.
Adventurers being .exe (cutable) is part of the BM mechanics the same as the scrolls that bug you so much. You're being unfair to yourself when you restrain yourself from taking advantage of one when someone else is taking advantage of the other. I wouldn't hesitate to shank the advy if I had a really good reason.
I play this game to enjoy, but also very much to make sure others enjoy it. The latter is the main reason why Oligarch formed into a new realm in the first place. I know that when we start executing every advy we can find it will in part ruin the game for their players and I'm not here to ruin the fun of others just because someone is ruining my fun.
In stead I am arguing for limiting magic beyond BT and at least on EC. I made the same arguments to the devs yesterday and they will look at it. If nothing happens I'll reconsider my options in a few months I guess. I love this game too much to just quite and for me Oligarch as a realm has become too awesome with many amazing players to me to just leave it and run for the magic.
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That may be the difference then. In all the battles Selenia has fought in during this war (protip: a LOT) scrolls have never once been used. The only magical event that happened previously was some kind of portal event where the whole population of Isadril up and abandoned Xavax then raged through Vix and Perdan.
In fact, the only scrolls that I'm aware have been used at all were when Stegman Hemmings targeted her with pain magic 2 or 3 times, then when she used a Fountain of Youth scroll on herself. Lastly, of course, this resurrection. End of list.
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I can only recall one major magical incident in the south (portal stones being used in Isadril causing a ton of the population to become a mobile militia that went rampaging northward) we certainly don't see the level of magic use you're describing. Hell, my Advie finally found a wizard for the first time since his creation in the last week or so.
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That may be the difference then. It seems then that Sirion is buying all scrolls and using them against us and me personally preferably.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind them targetting Garas with anything else as he earned that, but the magic should not be on EC let alone this strong. If they capture Garas and execute him due to his ban I'd have no problems with it (I'd be sad sure, but no more) and I then wouldn't want him to be revived then. This is a risk I take by being on front lines every turn, but they already tried once to capture him by removing his hours with magic just as we were moving back after a battle. In stead I got wounded but they'll prob try again. Should that happen I'm now 50/50 between doing everything to destroy Sirion...everything..or just rage quit.
But yeah this is the magic we face every time...
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Simple Solution: Move to Xavax where we only have magical events once ever 5 years or more.
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Haha thanks, appreciate the offer :p
But if I ever leave Oligarch because of the magic I'll be gone entirely I'm afraid ;)
Fortunately we're not at that point yet
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Oi! Where's Uthred's bloody scroll! Although he died twice so there probably wasn't two spells ;)
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I play this game to enjoy, but also very much to make sure others enjoy it. The latter is the main reason why Oligarch formed into a new realm in the first place. I know that when we start executing every advy we can find it will in part ruin the game for their players and I'm not here to ruin the fun of others just because someone is ruining my fun.
Categorical Imperative. I wouldn't mind having an advy character killed off for some very good reason.
And honestly if I was playing an advy in said magical realm then I personally would preffer some thrill and danger than just frivolously acquiring great advantage to my realm without any fear of retribution. If you're too scared to have your character killed off then what's the point playing advy/hero at all.
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Sirion does fit into a magical realm. Elves and now endless array of spells coming out from them to hit Garas...
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That may be the difference then. It seems then that Sirion is buying all scrolls and using them against us and me personally preferably.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind them targetting Garas with anything else as he earned that, but the magic should not be on EC let alone this strong. If they capture Garas and execute him due to his ban I'd have no problems with it (I'd be sad sure, but no more) and I then wouldn't want him to be revived then. This is a risk I take by being on front lines every turn, but they already tried once to capture him by removing his hours with magic just as we were moving back after a battle. In stead I got wounded but they'll prob try again. Should that happen I'm now 50/50 between doing everything to destroy Sirion...everything..or just rage quit.
But yeah this is the magic we face every time...
Ah crap, I can understand now why you feel the way you do. I have a character on every island and never encountered anything remotely like that.
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Sirion does fit into a magical realm. Elves and now endless array of spells coming out from them to hit Garas...
umm
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/JeVondair_Family/Selenia/Resurrection (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/JeVondair_Family/Selenia/Resurrection)
I like your Roleplays. However Brock is already disliking magic, Selenia event only serves to push him to another level altogether, see below reply to Gabanus family.
I told JeVondair this in private also. My objection to this has nothing to do with the JeVondair family, the player, the consequences it has in game, or the roleplay opportunities. My problem is with the impact magic currently has on BM especially on islands other than BT (and maybe Dwilight).
BM is called battlemaster for a reason and not spellmaster, I believe that's another game. For me at least this game resolves around medieval based warfare and roleplaying which I both enjoy and participate in. But these last few months I've seen the impact of magic be so large that it really is slowly pushing me to quit BM. I have done all I could to turn it into a positive thing which is why Garas is currently blind and we turned it into huge roleplay turn.
Yes, I agree with your points. Brock even had his own duchy and Caligus duchy starving because of that dark portal roleplaying events. Which is really proved nuisance as the lords just diverted food supply from other duchies or regions to the starving ones. If dark portal roleplays plan to achieve something, they need to have a roll of dices but not that too impactful. Something that would encourage the rest of characters to Roleplay the events and add in the Roleplays at the very least. Ugh, I beginning to think of the many characters Roleplays in Beluaterra island. That already make Brock very suspecting of anyone who have Scrolls, portal stones and magic, he already on high Dislike level after that starvation issues. Sometimes I wonder if I should choose Roleplay my character as being cynical of anything to do with magic. As a start, Nivemus is allied with Sirion who is casting magic scrolls on Oligarch.
Haha thanks, appreciate the offer :p
But if I ever leave Oligarch because of the magic I'll be gone entirely I'm afraid ;)
Fortunately we're not at that point yet
There are always something for Garas, it has been his destiny, I unsure if he even predicts this when he seceded Oligarch city 8)
Sirion does fit into a magical realm. Elves and now endless array of spells coming out from them to hit Garas...
Elves and their spells cannot stop me! Muahaha... ;D
That said, I need plan something for or against Greater Xavax.
Ugh, why Xavax is called Greater? ???
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Well Garas is not just cynical of magic, he is an eternal enemy of it. I've shared some of his experiences with most Generals and within the Order of the White Tree so I'm sure it will spread at least somewhere, which should IG also at least explain his point of view good enough.
And yeah once Coimbra and Karbala did not join I knew already we were in trouble. I in fact did not expect to survive this long as a realm or char. And of course I then quickly figured out they'd come for him and I'm fine with that. Actually, I think it adds a very cool strife within the game so I made little attempt to make him look sympathatic to Sirion Nobles. I simply didn't expect this constant rain of magic however in BM.
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Eh without peasant militias, Oligarch would have died like three times over. Damn peasants...
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Kill all peasants!
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Garas outlaws magic then gets cross when he is constantly attacked by magicians. It writes itself..He's Gargamel in the land of the smurfs.
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Garas outlaws magic then gets cross when he is constantly attacked by magicians. It writes itself..He's Gargamel in the land of the smurfs.
The discussion here is how I as player am fed up with this large actual impact of magic in a low fantasy game like BM. When I first started playing magic didn't even exist at all. BM shouldn't have magicians in the first place, so your comparrison is far off.
How Garas will react is a different thing. I just explained why because of ooc reasons I'm hesitant to perform certain IC actions like hunting/executing advies at random.
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Alright, point taken. I suppose we don't hardly see any magic, scrolls etc cast in Caligus because we have zero conflict. We don't have any particular stance. I can see how it would be frustrating to be constantly stymied by magic deus ex. Perhaps it's since the adventurer code update there's more loot overall so more likely to pull off the random scroll requirements.
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Wouldn't that be Medeis ex Machina?
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I definitely hope magic should be limited to certain islands unless we are trying to merge Spellmaster and Battlemaster.
Scrolls are starting to impact the game too much. It is acceptable for BT's case since the whole island revolves around creatures from another dimension but EC? I'd be okay with Dwilight even but EC is a continent directly out of Spellmaster. I think that is why all the sages and wizards are constantly on the move and when you hear about them, they are being chased by witch hunters occasionally. Also, other races are not even allowed because they are against BM's low fantasy aspect. All of sudden, this year, the devs decided to make magic more abundant by bringing in portal events that summon daimons and monsters on even Dwilight or cause permanent damages to RCs etc. Wouldn't mind knowing where the direct of this game is heading. I think we are at a crossroad between remaining low fantasy or going high fantasy.
Like I said, I don't mind BT being BM's version of high fantasy. I am completely okay with having one island dedicated to it but if we are heading toward the high fantasy direction, I am afraid it won't be the same game I've signed up a decade ago.
Regarding scrolls, I sure hope either they become very very rare by reducing the available number of wizard per any given time to 1 or hope it becomes increasingly hard to make them when there are too many scrolls in the hands of the player. Also, I'd very much like to see some sort of an expiry date on all the scrolls so they don't stick around when you pause your character so when you unpause after years to use it.
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Again, magic =/= high fantasy. Please stop spreading that misconception with your arguments. And if East Island is really the continent from Spellmaster, wouldn't that make it more likely to have magic, not less? Besides, witches and wizards being put to death by witch hunters is something that occurs on all islands. Also you are incorrect regarding other races not being allowed, they are not allowed outside Sirion and arguably Outer Tilog. Inside Sirion you can claim to be an elf (though most won't take you seriously) and in Outer Tilog I wouldn't be surprised at all if a character claiming to be a mechanical monstrosity showed up and was banned for being literate.
Regarding portals on BT summoning Daimons and monsters, where have you been? That's always been a part of BT, it isn't new in the slightest and the devs didn't suddenly bring it in on a whim. That continent had players sacrificing themselves in temples to basically power religious weapons that destroyed swaths of the invading Daimons in one of the previous Invasions.
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Again, magic =/= high fantasy. Please stop spreading that misconception with your arguments. And if East Island is really the continent from Spellmaster, wouldn't that make it more likely to have magic, not less? Besides, witches and wizards being put to death by witch hunters is something that occurs on all islands. Also you are incorrect regarding other races not being allowed, they are not allowed outside Sirion and arguably Outer Tilog. Inside Sirion you can claim to be an elf (though most won't take you seriously) and in Outer Tilog I wouldn't be surprised at all if a character claiming to be a mechanical monstrosity showed up and was banned for being literate.
Regarding portals on BT summoning Daimons and monsters, where have you been? That's always been a part of BT, it isn't new in the slightest and the devs didn't suddenly bring it in on a whim. That continent had players sacrificing themselves in temples to basically power religious weapons that destroyed swaths of the invading Daimons in one of the previous Invasions.
No. Even within Sirion, you are not supposed to RP like you are an elf. Just that it is not worth pressing the matter to displease players of Sirion. It is more of a silent agreement that as long as you are in Sirion, nobody will laugh at you for RPing as an elf. However, the only people who can RP by Tom's rule as an elf is pretty much Ecthelion only at this point as his character existed long before the rule ever came to be.
I can't say much about OT. Never paid much attention to colonies.
As you can see, wizards and sages are hunted. What does that mean? It means practitioners of magic are aggressively hunted.
I had to look up how people defined 'low fantasy'. It sounds like magic is okay but it should be very rare as low fantasy should resemble our own world more closely. I also found this on our wiki. It is one of the rules regarding how we should roleplay, written by Tom and other couple devs:
Try to stay in the era BattleMaster is set in
Even though it isn't punished, or enforced strictly, your character is a noble in a Middle Ages-type setting. As such, he can't fly through the air, use electricity, and gunpowder has yet to be invented. Your character lives in a world dominated by codes of honour, chivalry, and a limited application of science. Thus, he isn't going to be flying in spaceships, wielding magic, or destroying armies with a single wave of an arm.
By that rule, we should be done with scrolls unless we are planning on changing that.
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No. Even within Sirion, you are not supposed to RP like you are an elf. Just that it is not worth pressing the matter to displease players of Sirion. It is more of a silent agreement that as long as you are in Sirion, nobody will laugh at you for RPing as an elf. However, the only people who can RP by Tom's rule as an elf is pretty much Ecthelion only at this point as his character existed long before the rule ever came to be.
I can't say much about OT. Never paid much attention to colonies.
As you can see, wizards and sages are hunted. What does that mean? It means practitioners of magic are aggressively hunted.
I had to look up how people defined 'low fantasy'. It sounds like magic is okay but it should be very rare as low fantasy should resemble our own world more closely. I also found this on our wiki. It is one of the rules regarding how we should roleplay, written by Tom and other couple devs:
Try to stay in the era BattleMaster is set in
Even though it isn't punished, or enforced strictly, your character is a noble in a Middle Ages-type setting. As such, he can't fly through the air, use electricity, and gunpowder has yet to be invented. Your character lives in a world dominated by codes of honour, chivalry, and a limited application of science. Thus, he isn't going to be flying in spaceships, wielding magic, or destroying armies with a single wave of an arm.
By that rule, we should be done with scrolls unless we are planning on changing that.
Considering scrolls have been around forever, since before Tom left active development, and gunpowder HAS been invented (it's the mass-produced musket you're thinking of), nothing has changed except maybe some adventurer code for finding items. That can be adjusted, but I'm pretty sure that there hasn't been any new ways to procure scrolls added to the game, and no new scrolls either. I do know that the scrolls have a very high failure rate if you don't have any spellcasting skill (and it is a skill in the game, has been for an even longer time), something I experienced myself using teleportation scrolls, only one in three actually working. So even if scrolls are more common now, unless you have the skill to use them it's basically a huge gamble whether it will work.
Gunpowder, by the way, is what the demolition charges use (I believe that's their name, someone correct me if I'm wrong). Since it's been a long time since actually destroying the walls without taking over the city has been done in a war, they haven't seen much use as that is the only time you'd be able to use them reasonably. They do exist, however, and so gunpowder is part of the game.
As for practitioners of magic being hunted, YES! Of course! Why do you think characters point and cry out in alarm, claiming some other character has used "black magic" after using a scroll? This occurs on Dwilight on occasion, even if there is no magic involved. It's a matter of mindset, not whether magic itself is common. You can see how the realms around Greater Xavax reacted to Selenia being resurrected, so it isn't as if there isn't this kind of mindset already.
So to finish, no, we should not be done with scrolls, because there was nothing to change in the first place besides some adventurer item gathering mechanics. Scrolls have been a part of this game for a long time, and saying that things have changed because there are scrolls is ignoring the fact that they have always been there.
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Except they were never meant to play such a huge role. Why do you think there is a warning under 'Hero' class warning you about your character's death?
Scrolls were okay until recently because nobody was carrying a cartload of scrolls to burn. They were 'really' rare compare to unique items.
There were so many scrolls on BT, some new features were added to make them fire off randomly when you had too many monsters or undead scrolls. Good that it was BT but when somebody carries a lot of scrolls on other continents, then what do you do?
When I found a wizard last time, I made 3 scrolls. 2 scrolls of accidents which were supposed to be super rare, and 1 scroll of acid. Wizards need to ask for more common items to make a scroll and once they make one, they should get the hell out instead of staying around to make 2 more.
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I would also note that the point of scrolls is that the characters themselves are too weak to cast their own magic, but must use a 'ritual recipe', if you will. The spellcasting skill is just how successful they are at completing the complex, confusing ritual written on the scroll.
Adjusting how long wizards stay in a region after completing a scroll sounds like a good adjustment.
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I would also note that the point of scrolls is that the characters themselves are too weak to cast their own magic, but must use a 'ritual recipe', if you will. The spellcasting skill is just how successful they are at completing the complex, confusing ritual written on the scroll.
Adjusting how long wizards stay in a region after completing a scroll sounds like a good adjustment.
I agree with this person. If changes are to be made they should be less global and nuclear. Small changes like making wizards more travelly and maybe reducing their amount on EC would be more fitting than outright getting rid of magic everywhere except BT.
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I agree with this person. If changes are to be made they should be less global and nuclear. Small changes like making wizards more travelly and maybe reducing their amount on EC would be more fitting than outright getting rid of magic everywhere except BT.
Well right now the problems with magic are simply too great, but it won't be removed entirely from lands like EC unfortunately.
Funnily enough though, when I first started playing magic and scrolls were not part of the game, they simply didn't exist. So why would removing them be so nuclear, when this game very long was perfect to play without it, in fact it was the core of the game. Magic was always meant to be no more than a small addition without a lot of impact to add a little bit of RP flavor. These days, with the changes made throughout the past year we've seen its impact spike. Spells are far too wide spread, it's still too simple and easy to cast them, despite the skill and in worst case we'll just get a magician per realm, which makes no sense. If we really move this way, I move that we make spell casting the same as infil stuff. If it goes wrong you can get captured and banned and later executed.
Magic has become an extremely powerfull weapon to be used frequently and at will, without any real possible negative consequences. If we allow magic, then make it backfire half of the time, or impose great risk like the risk of being banned upon failure. It's only normal people try to execute magicians isn't it?
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Funnily enough though, when I first started playing magic and scrolls were not part of the game, they simply didn't exist. So why would removing them be so nuclear, when this game very long was perfect to play without it, in fact it was the core of the game.
That's not a particularly good argument, as you could say just the same about infiltrators, adventurers, priests, guilds/religions, and every island but the EC and Colonies.
Magic has become an extremely powerfull weapon to be used frequently and at will, without any real possible negative consequences. If we allow magic, then make it backfire half of the time, or impose great risk like the risk of being banned upon failure. It's only normal people try to execute magicians isn't it?
It might well be worthwhile to add some consequences for using magic, and that's something we can discuss among the dev team.
The risk of being banned doesn't seem to make sense, as we can't force that on the realm of the person casting the spell, and how would the realm of the victim know who it was—if the spell even has a "victim," rather than being cast on someone in their own realm to heal or buff them?
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That's not a particularly good argument, as you could say just the same about infiltrators, adventurers, priests, guilds/religions, and every island but the EC and Colonies.
Well it was more the start of the rest of the argument that this game in its core has no magic and that it was just a small add-on which has grown far too influential. It was more directed at the argument that removing magic would be 'too nuclear' which is a false argument of course if you look at the history and essense of BM.
It might well be worthwhile to add some consequences for using magic, and that's something we can discuss among the dev team.
The risk of being banned doesn't seem to make sense, as we can't force that on the realm of the person casting the spell, and how would the realm of the victim know who it was—if the spell even has a "victim," rather than being cast on someone in their own realm to heal or buff them?
Well if things go wrong and you get strange beams lighting the sky etc and the 'sorcerer' found unconcious than people will be able to identify him and if the enemy captures him then they also know and can ban him for casting magic. This and the potential backfire are 2 separate things which would raise the risk of using magic. Right now there are no consequences, not for the spellcaster himself, nor for the realm as a whole.
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Here's my thought on the magic issues and the things around it.
On making Sages occurrence lesser. If we are simulating a game similar to Middle Age, have we past that Witch Inquisition Age? Since we have village folk hunting down Sages, we might as well have something similar to Inquisition time, think before 19th century in real world. Where Sages/Witch are hunted down and become lesser to be found by adventurers. That could be good reasoning and argument if any.
On magic on EC. I wondering whether we can apply the same "carry too many scrolls go off on Belu" code to EC. Then we will have a lot of accidents with scrolls ::)
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Here's my thought on the magic issues and the things around it.
On making Sages occurrence lesser. If we are simulating a game similar to Middle Age, have we past that Witch Inquisition Age? Since we have village folk hunting down Sages, we might as well have something similar to Inquisition time, think before 19th century in real world. Where Sages/Witch are hunted down and become lesser to be found by adventurers. That could be good reasoning and argument if any.
On magic on EC. I wondering whether we can apply the same "carry too many scrolls go off on Belu" code to EC. Then we will have a lot of accidents with scrolls ::)
I'd also prefer an approach to this magic 'problem' in the EC, that is taken IG.
If certain realms or characters don't like magic, they could have the option to hunt down the witches and or sages.
Invest time and gold to increase the chances of witches present in a certain region getting 'removed' from the continent.
Perhaps make it an option for every estate to do this, so knights and lords alike can choose to invest in less magic producers.
Also, if i understand correctly, if Magic is illegal in the realm and it is cast by someone, he or she wont be identified?
Perhaps add a certain chance that characters will get indentified so a Judge can deal with it.
All tools for IG solutions to the problem.
Certain cultures or realms might choose to actually promote the use of magic while others hunt it down.
This gives extra incentive for conflict.
Also, hunting down witches in only a certain area will effect the rest of the continent too, as these characters travel around.
It might be hard to balance though.
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I wouldn't give a such option to lords. I'd give it to priests. If your religion is anti-magic, having an option to send inquisitors would be nice. Capturing sages, wizards, and possibly commoners carrying scrolls. Maybe hold religious trials to execute commoners.
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I wouldn't give a such option to lords. I'd give it to priests. If your religion is anti-magic, having an option to send inquisitors would be nice. Capturing sages, wizards, and possibly commoners carrying scrolls. Maybe hold religious trials to execute commoners.
Why not to lords? They can have their militia patroll for any wizard and magic etc no?
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I'm not sure you can fully argue against magic on EC based on the low fantasy aspects of the game, though I am with you that magic is becoming way too common. Rogue groups have always been monsters or undead... this is kind of the stuff of fantasy anyway.... it could have been something tribal or bandits/pirates but the devs from day one chose the fantastical
I think it is more the range of different scrolls suddenly available.
A couple of years back I recall only really seeing summoning scrolls, now there are scrolls with numerous different powers that maybe beef up the advy game, but when it has direct effect on nobles I'm not really sure its a good thing.
I'd sooner see scrolls that effect regions... eg. poison crops to lower production... alternatively boost crops. damage morale or increase morale... these would fit more with low fantasy as they could essentially be recipes for fertilisers or LSD in the well... I'd also prefer to see magic only used by certain classes... eg. priest and infiltrators to beef up that side of the game a little.
Kind of going off topis here.
There is too much 'magical' magic to truly call BM low fantasy in my opinion, and that is because there is too much magic to directly effect nobles. I agree also fine for BT... not so sure for EC
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There are really powerful ones that seem to be too readily available and relatively easy to cast for those who have decent skill levels in spellcasting.
Ones that have a huge impact should probably be harder to cast.
1) Scroll of Healing
2) Scroll of Accident
Those two need to be a lot more difficult. I'd say they should both be at 80.
But maybe fireball should be a lot more common since it is the easiest one to cast.
On top of all this, having fewer wizards or wizards only staying for 1 attempt at creating scroll will help greatly as well. Just like creating unique items, if there are too many around already, there should be higher chance of failure plus the longer you hold on to scrolls, the higher the chance of failure as well so people don't just hold on to them forever. Plus if you pause, just like items, scrolls should be dropped.
What I am saying is - make it harder to cast, harder to create and harder to keep.
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Well my advy is not managing to find any scrolls in Sirion :'(
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Add a not insignificant risk of death from using a scroll based on the complexity of the scroll.
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Add a not insignificant risk of death from using a scroll based on the complexity of the scroll.
+1
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Or maybe a cooldown everytime you use a scroll. Maybe one scroll a week.
"You have already exhausted what puny magical power you had within you. You ain't no spellmaster. You can't cast spells after spells. Take your wizard hat off and start putting your helm back on!"
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Magic being erratic, instead of difficult, would make it illegal in more places. If failing a healing scroll could mean wounding a random ally instead, for example.
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Magic being erratic, instead of difficult, would make it illegal in more places. If failing a healing scroll could mean wounding a random ally instead, for example.
This: scroll of healing works but drains your life force killing you instead. Fireball damages fortifications or injures nearby noble, etc.
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This: scroll of healing works but drains your life force killing you instead. Fireball damages fortifications or injures nearby noble, etc.
Raising undead may actually see them rise on your current position, meaning your unit actually fights them (like hunting?) with the risk of you getting wounded and/or losing men, etc. While we're adding some of them.
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Raising undead may actually see them rise on your current position, meaning your unit actually fights them (like hunting?) with the risk of you getting wounded and/or losing men, etc. While we're adding some of them.
Exactly. I'm all for erratic magic causing mayhem because that will make it illegal, but 95% of players are wimps and having a risk of death attached to most scrolls will make them unwilling to use them.
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Exactly. I'm all for erratic magic causing mayhem because that will make it illegal, but 95% of players are wimps and having a risk of death attached to most scrolls will make them unwilling to use them.
Well, sure, if the risk is death...
Doesn't need to be that extreme. Hordes spawning in a different region, banishment scrolls summoning more daimons, healing scrolls wounding a random noble, etc. The risk of a mishap doesn't even need to be huge, imo, to be dissuasive on the realm-level, without also making them unappealing to the individuals.