BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: JeVondair on May 23, 2017, 10:36:23 PM
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Summary: I triple-checked, Vita, this was not on the Frequent list!
Description: Battlemaster is a medieval sim. There are game mechanics to support war, trade, tourney's, raiding, and religions. And yet there is no game mechanic to support one of the biggest parts of medieval life: marriages. Whether it be for love or the far more usual political/economic advantage, marriage was without doubt a matter of pinnacle importance and I believe adding a mechanic to support it would not only fit the milieu, but deepen the game. What I envision could be simple: Two people in the same region select from a menu in the actions tab, same as they would duels, instead there is a wedding option. It could also be complex...like a new thing that only priests can do by going into the religion tab, selecting two names from a dropdown menu denoting characters in the same region, and sending a wedding request to both parties who, upon agreeing, are wed at next turnchange. An update goes into their family history "Sonso married Suchnsuch." This would be a permanent thing, till death do us part. And only the deletion or death of a character could annul it...much like in the middle ages.
Benefits: Roleplay, fits milieu, potentially adds extra value to priests if you go that route
Drawbacks: I am bad at this. All of my ideas are perfect.
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I think you're skimping on summary and description a bit, and getting carried away with arguing for the feature :P
So, strictly mechanically, you're asking for a feature to propose a marriage to someone in-region (hohoho, are we gonna tackle same-sex marriages in BM too?), which, if accepted, would add an entry to both their family histories as having married the other? And limit each char to one living spouse (but what of the harem roleplays?).
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Let me address those in reverse order.
And limit each char to one living spouse (but what of the harem roleplays?).
You may be pleased to note that I never said marriage would be limited to one spouse, I only said that it was till death do you part. I can think of at least two major medieval cultures that sported polygamy, although they were not necessarily European. So you go do you Vita you scandalous dog you.
, which, if accepted, would add an entry to both their family histories as having married the other?
yup
(hohoho, are we gonna tackle same-sex marriages in BM too?)
I mean, its not period, but it neither is the Beppo, female captains, or warrior queens. Let's do it.
So, strictly mechanically, you're asking for a feature to propose a marriage to someone in-region
Basically, although making it a function of he priest is more fancy AND more period.
I think you're skimping on summary and description a bit, and getting carried away with arguing for the feature :P
You wound me. You're not wrong, per say, but truth hurts.
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I think this is a good idea. I've seen several players make do. This feature would make it easier for those players to "make it official". And considering the medieval backdrop of this game, it only makes sense to add a marriage mechanic of some kind. Wasn't marriage important to Medieval cultures?
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I like the idea of formalizing marriages abit.
We may need some finetuning on what this would mean in game, mechanically. But I believe such thing should be do-able.
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If marriages are only show in the character history on the family page that would be woefully little in terms of displaying the union. No body would really know outside of actually being told.
Perhaps another way of showing the world that certain people are in a union. Be that on the family page or elsewhere.
Suggestions:
1. Family page - http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=34659
The top box where characters are listed add another column e.q. next to ''Sex'' and have it titled ''Married to'' in this field the character's spouse(s) is displayed in hotlink. Clickable so that it takes the user straight to the family page of the spouse.
2. Status page - accessed via clicking your character's name on the bottom left corner next to the navigation menu when ingame (like viewing your unit)
There's 4 boxes on the status page that list info about your character, your unit, location and your titles (in the green bottom box). Use the character info box and add a row in it at the bottom perhaps. Call it: "Married to" and list the spouse(s).
That way other players could see it, be aware and it could be a bragging rights thing. Especially if a family is married only to other families with high fame or with high positions. Eventually it could evolve into a prestige thing where a particular marriage could grand prestige but that seems vulnerable to exploitation to me.
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If marriages are only show in the character history on the family page that would be woefully little in terms of displaying the union. No body would really know outside of actually being told.
Perhaps another way of showing the world that certain people are in a union. Be that on the family page or elsewhere.
Suggestions:
1. Family page - http://battlemaster.org/UserDetails.php?ID=34659
The top box where characters are listed add another column e.q. next to ''Sex'' and have it titled ''Married to'' in this field the character's spouse(s) is displayed in hotlink. Clickable so that it takes the user straight to the family page of the spouse.
2. Status page - accessed via clicking your character's name on the bottom left corner next to the navigation menu when ingame (like viewing your unit)
There's 4 boxes on the status page that list info about your character, your unit, location and your titles (in the green bottom box). Use the character info box and add a row in it at the bottom perhaps. Call it: "Married to" and list the spouse(s).
That way other players could see it, be aware and it could be a bragging rights thing. Especially if a family is married only to other families with high fame or with high positions. Eventually it could evolve into a prestige thing where a particular marriage could grand prestige but that seems vulnerable to exploitation to me.
If that's all it should be doing, then it sounds do-able I think.
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That sounds great! I really like that idea.
Question: Were you leaning more towards making this an agreement between the two characters themselves or were you partial to making this a function of priests? I personally think that adding the latter would be awesome as it requires more characters working together, adds value to the priest class, and brings religion back to the fore.
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On the icon that displays a character's sex, perhaps it could be made so that putting the mouse over it (or clicking on it) would open a small tooltip showing the spouse(s)? Easy access without taking any additional space.
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That sounds great! I really like that idea.
Question: Were you leaning more towards making this an agreement between the two characters themselves or were you partial to making this a function of priests? I personally think that adding the latter would be awesome as it requires more characters working together, adds value to the priest class, and brings religion back to the fore.
Let me be lear, I'm not the one who decides which FR's get approved andd which ones don't. I'm just thinking about the coding impact here.
Also, I was more thinking like a duel-like system (one invites the other). A priest inviting 2 others is slightly more complicated but still okay to do.. I think.
I'd wait for some input from Vita here though.
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You know...we could do both...
You mentioned the duel-like drop down between two people. Well, what if that was merely a betrothal? It would be denoted in all the appropriate spots as Renodin suggested. Then a priest has to confirm/officiate the wedding via the aforementioned manner? 8)
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That's a great idea, JeVondair
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polygamy
Hey, polyandry is a thing too. ;) Seriously though, I'd like to wait for Anaris's input before we expand the feature complication with socially progressive concepts in a medieval-based game, even if we're enlightened players and the game isn't meant to be an exact simulation.
I mean, its not period, but it neither is the Beppo, female captains, or warrior queens. Let's do it.
I'm going to wait until Anaris's input, before I say let's do it, for the same reasons as above.
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I like the additional suggestions by Renodin. Chenier's suggestion is sensible for simple marriages; if we do decide to allow polygamy/polyandry, it might be too much tooltip.
I do like the idea of a noble proposing to another in the region, the other accepting, giving them the Engaged status. And requiring a priest to make an official marriage. And the couple and the priest must all be of the same religion. At this point, I'm not certain how I would structure the priest-official-ceremony mechanic. I think the priest inviting an Engaged couple within a region to complete their ceremony would be simplest code-wise.
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Hey, polyandry is a thing too. ;) Seriously though, I'd like to wait for Anaris's input before we expand the feature complication with socially progressive concepts in a medieval-based game, even if we're enlightened players and the game isn't meant to be an exact simulation.
Polyandry is a form of polygamy. Poly (many) gamos (marriage). Polyandry and polygyny (I totally know what to do when I have too many Ys in scrabble now) and its declinations.
I'm not sure those should be viewed as "socially progressive concepts", but rather, "foreignly-sourced concepts". If you look at the map on the wiki for polygamy, it's basically everywhere except in Europe and its ex-colonies. And still is. I don't see many social justice warriors fighting for legalization of polygyny...
I think it would allow for more roleplay opportunities. We aren't talking about having the game start using 100 different genders, here... And it's not really a modern thorny issue, at least not in western society, I don't see it spawning a ton of hateful forum posts.
Not sure about same sex marriage, though. In-game, that is. There are some people that are sensitive to that IRL (mind you, I'm not typically a fan of tending to every sensitivity). Where to draw the line? It could probably be argued that some cultures allowed it, with the same arguments as for polygamy. I don't know. Doesn't feel the same to me. Harems and such are common pieces of fantasy, and were present on the very border of Europe, with nations that Europe actively fought. I'm no homosexuality historian, but from the little I know, the places that accepted it were much farther away. Doesn't lend itself to that "close foreigner" feel. Also seems much more susceptible to troll baiting. And on the other hand, forcing gay characters to marry a character of the opposite sex purely to legalize their union seems like it could lend itself to legit interesting roleplay situations.
In any case, I think both of these concepts are intimately linked, no matter what one decides on either, because polygamy in a binary sex system necessarily involves the union of at least two people of the same sex.
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I like these ideas. And I'd say same-sex marriage should be allowed for sure, not only because this is just a game and not reality, but because in reality they existed in places other than europe for sure, but also in Rome did they not, and also the whole mentor thing in Greece? And even in the medieval times of europe kings had same-sex lovers while still being married to a woman aswell for example.
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I like the idea, but in completely different form...
I am against marriages just between characters... there is no IC use of them but they can drag many complications... like if Lord of one region marry Lady of the other region it would be mess if it is allowed that they both can govern both regions and if it is not allowed then what would marriage mean? Also if there are marriages, then why would there no be children - and if some third player would play child or adopted child of two Lords who would with all right have claims over regions of his/her parents - how it would affect "no placeholder rule"?... There are many more similar complications... Also, same sex marriages would never happen in medieval feudal society... But it is the fact that marriages were important part of those societies... especially arranged diplomatic marriages.
In the light of Diplomatic marriages, it would be nice to have option that if there are two realms where elections for position of Ruler are restricted and if one of them is ruled by male ruler and the other by female ruler, that there is option for them to engage in marriage what the game could treat as 2nd Federation (considering that the game allows only one Federation to be formed).
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I don't understand what you are trying to say, can you please explain further?
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Game mechanism is restricting changes in Diplomatic Relations of realms allowing that each realm can form only single Feteration.
The idea is that under options where Ruler can change Diplomatic Relations with other realms can be added option for marriage proposal which if accepted would immediately define Diplomatic Relations between those two realms as Federation... Federation formed by Diplomatic marriage should not affect ability of the realm to regularly form Federation by Diplomatic Relations with some third realm, and it should be treated by the game mechanism as 2nd Federation (which could be formed only by marriage, keeping the restriction that regularly by Diplomacy only single Federation can be formed).
For two Rulers to be able to propose Diplomatic marriage to another Ruler two conditions have to be satisfied:
1. Both realms must have restricted elections for ruler (Considering that Diplomatic Relations of the realm would be directly related to relations (marriage) between Rulers, it would have no sense to allow such diplomatic option to realms which have only temporary rulers (where rulers are elected on monthly/quarterly elections), but rulers of both realms should be permanent (NO elections for ruler position)).
2. Gender of Ruler to whom diplomatic marriage is proposed must be opposite of gender of one who is proposing the marriage (in feudal society there is absolute no way that persons of the same sex could engage in marriage).
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If we implement marriages, they will certainly not affect diplomatic relations on their own. While I wouldn't completely rule out other possibilities, it is definitely most likely that we would simply implement them as a roleplay tool that the game will keep track of for you so you don't have to keep referring to wiki pages or something.
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Out of curiosity, what are the major things standing in the way of this being approved and implemented?
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Is there room to approve this feature request?
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Obviously I love this feature as I'm one of those players who had a huge wedding RP with another and would be nice to see this through further.
In terms of diplomacy I think there should be no automatic change, but let it flow from there (or let them kick you out of the realm right Chamberlain ^^).
Also would there be a way to retroactively marry chars who have been RP married for years? Otherwise I have to activate Garas again...
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From a technical standpoint, you'd need a page to manage marriage requests on, a database table to track them, a page to display the information on, and some rules to govern what you're allowing. It's certainly less daunting than several other systems in BM (not counting the battle system because that massacres all other pages in levels of daunt).
For instance, if you wanted, you could steal M&F's concept of relationships, which may save some implementation time since that all already works, then adapt it to how it would work in BM.
As to rules in how it would work, are you allowing anyone to marry anyone, or only male-female marriages? Can you have multiple partners in marriage, or just one? Are we allowing divorces or is it for life?
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As to potential rules and guidelines to Marriages.
I'll assume the SMA (Serious Medieval Atmosphere) as a guiding principal. These are just suggestions and there are multiple suggestions to question as asked by Andrew
Anyone allowed to Marry anyone?
Man and Woman or vice versa, Woman and Man, proposing wise.
Anyone allowed to Marry anyone?
Priest class only. The priest class can declare a marriage.
Anyone allowed to Marry anyone?
Both parties of the marriage must be of the same religion, said priest must also be part of said religion.
Multiple Partners in Marriage?
No
Multiple Partner in Marriage?
If yes then to be specified within a Religion. Religion either allows it or doesn't and thus religious adherents can or cannot marry multiple partners. It should be a limited choice for a Religion, like 1 to 3 partners per person. Ratio as well. 1 male can marry 1, 2 or 3 female partners or vice versa.
Divorce option?
Yes. Priest or Elder of said Religion can annul Marriages. Elder would be most favorable for the game as it adds depth but also development time.
Divorce option?
Maybe. To be set by each particular Religion. Either they allow Divorces or not. Like looting is ''Legal'' or ''Illegal'' realm law.
It doesn't have to be complicated. Could simply go for, Male / Female Marriages. To be agreed upon by both parties, have an invite possibility like issuing a Duel Challenge and if the other party accepts, great. Marriage done. Have it show up someone easily accessible and voila.
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Concerning a divorce, it should be possible, but I believe it should come with a severe enough penalty in honor and prestige. After all, a divorce is quite a shame especially in medieval times from what I know. It damages someone's station and should not be done lightly.
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As to rules in how it would work, are you allowing anyone to marry anyone, or only male-female marriages? Can you have multiple partners in marriage, or just one? Are we allowing divorces or is it for life?
Guys, what if we made it so that players could choose what their family marriage views are during their first character creation the same way we choose what region our family is from? Here's the flow:
Choose a name for your family:
Select the following marriage beliefs your family holds: Traditional vs. Free Love? Divorces allowed? Can marry anyone or only those of equal/greater standing?
I think that giving the individual players critical choices like these is the right move bc not everything in this game is SMA and an unknown amount of players will feel very strongly about having their own choice. And, just like your family home, you can change the setting later and that change would be recorded in the family history.
Anyway, I am unfamiliar with the MF system. Is a dropdown-select process similar to the duel/trade system in BM? Just be in the same region as your intended, select them from the dropdown, and go? Anyone from families with incompatible values won't be available in the list.
btw...having a "Family Values" page might be pretty cool! It would be another instance of taking away from the wiki, but still.
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I like the idea of religion-sanctioned marriages, though there have been a number of high profile inter-faith marriages in BM's history.
I've always been in favor of forcing religions to adopt stances on a lot of topics, even if it's then not backed with mechanics implications. I therefore like the idea of making religions adopt a stance on marriage.
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Man. If this does get added to the game... I can't wait for incestuous marriages just to prevent false claims! Habsburg! Let's go!
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Man. If this does get added to the game... I can't wait for incestuous marriages just to prevent false claims! Habsburg! Let's go!
Speaking of which...Does anyone play a Lannister family?
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Did any of the guidelines / answers help?
Are there more area's that require brainstorming or input?
Looking at Andrew here.
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I like the idea of religion-sanctioned marriages, though there have been a number of high profile inter-faith marriages in BM's history.
I've always been in favor of forcing religions to adopt stances on a lot of topics, even if it's then not backed with mechanics implications. I therefore like the idea of making religions adopt a stance on marriage.
I like that route as well. makes the religion game more relevant. Besides, historically speaking, weren't religious conversions in order to marry a fairly common thing?
So two characters in the same region and of the same religion should have the option to select each other from a marriage drop down menu and send a marriage request which, when accepted by th other person, proc's a new entry into the family history. Extrapoints if we figure out how to work dowries!
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It's not me that needs to approve this, that's Anaris. I was just helping to flesh this out.
I could probably work on it though, or, given I spend most of my time working on M&F, help Wimpie, once he does though.
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It's not me that needs to approve this, that's Anaris. I was just helping to flesh this out.
I could probably work on it though, or, given I spend most of my time working on M&F, help Wimpie, once he does though.
Thanks for reviewing. i'm sure that I and many other players would love to see an RP feature like this added to the game!
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Seconded
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I would like this to become an actual thing. So I'm in as well
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I don't mean to complicate this by all my questions/thoughts below.. but....
Guys, what if we made it so that players could choose what their family marriage views are during their first character creation the same way we choose what region our family is from? Here's the flow:
Choose a name for your family:
Select the following marriage beliefs your family holds: Traditional vs. Free Love? Divorces allowed? Can marry anyone or only those of equal/greater standing?
I think that giving the individual players critical choices like these is the right move bc not everything in this game is SMA and an unknown amount of players will feel very strongly about having their own choice. And, just like your family home, you can change the setting later and that change would be recorded in the family history.
Running with this idea a bit, what if there are 2 characters within the same family that have entirely different views. i.e. Character 1 is of a Saxon/Christian mind and believes in 1 woman for 1 man under the eyes of God. but they have a relative (distant uncle, brother, or child or whatever) that is more of a Viking mentality - divorce happens and there is not really any shame in it. As long as the two remain semi civil and don't cause undue stress or harm to anyone else in the community, no one really cares about it..
I am not really in love with the idea of a "family" view of Marriage, but more on the character by character basis..
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Following a different stream of thought..
What if one spouse dies, is paused, or is deleted, how does that impact the status page? Does that complicate the coding at all?
A) If a Spouse dies, 1) I imagine the views on re-marriage from an IG perspective are dependent on the religion (assuming we bring religion into this) 2) from a functionality perspective - is remarriage a problem? do we denote the # of times a character has been married and to whom? Or once two characters are not married any longer (regardless of reason) do we pay no mention to the fact that they were at 1 point married?
B) What happens if one spouse gets paused? Do they remain married? This might get sticky in the sense that the player of the spouse might feel like they have the "right" to break the cardinal rule of RP.... don't take control of another player's character w/out consent..
C) What if a character is deleted? How does that impact the marriage - functionally I am thinking here.. Obviously in game the character (probably) dies and the surviving spouse becomes a widow/widower..
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Let's keep it simple. A marriage should involve one noble being able to marry another noble. Either party should also be able to dissolve the marriage if they wish.
So if your roleplay is that you're married for life, til death do us part, and the only real marriage is between a man and a woman then that's fine. You can marry another noble of the opposite sex and you can never dissolve the marriage. On the other hand, if your roleplay is that divorce is fine, you can marry as many people at once at you want and it doesn't matter what sex they are then the marriage mechanic should accommodate that too.
Game mechanics should enable, not dictate, what players do with their characters.
In terms of what happens if your spouse gets paused, deleted, etc. I think it should follow a simple rule that a dead or deleted character is treated by the game as being dead in terms of the marriage - if the other player agrees then your deleted spouse can become your NPC but otherwise you just RP them as having died. A character who is paused is just that, paused, and unless you're given permission by the player of the paused character then any RPs involving your spouse should be limited to them being in a coma, or suffering from sleeping sickness, or similar.
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I think IG the impacts of death/pausing/deleting are relatively simple. I was thinking more from the standpoint of the "status page" or whatever that would look like..
Another thing to think about, do both parties need to consent to a divorce or is that dictated by the "religion/vows/oaths/etc"?
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Do we have any idea of what it would take to implement this? I can name 6 other players who are looking to have their characters marry, but are waiting for any announcement as to whether or not this feature could get approval now that it's gained traction.
Thanks!
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Do we have any idea of what it would take to implement this? I can name 6 other players who are looking to have their characters marry, but are waiting for any announcement as to whether or not this feature could get approval now that it's gained traction.
Thanks!
Even if it gets approved, since it is not that important, it will be pretty far down the list meaning you won't see it for a long time. There are more urgent features waiting to be implemented. There is of course a great solution to this. Get your programmer buddies to join BM dev and make them implement it!
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Even if it gets approved, since it is not that important, it will be pretty far down the list meaning you won't see it for a long time. There are more urgent features waiting to be implemented. There is of course a great solution to this. Get your programmer buddies to join BM dev and make them implement it!
This.
I think there's no objection to implementing it, but it will take time. But more programmers to help us do the dev work to implement features like this would be very welcome :)
In the meantime, those nobles who are waiting to marry would be best off doing the RP now rather than waiting for this feature.
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It first needs to get approved by Delvin or Vita.
Then we would need to decide what exact functions we would implement. A simpler version vs a more complicated one. The latter obviously taking more time to implement.
The time it will take to implement will not only depend on how much developers we have. Because I'm happy to work on it. But also on the time Delvin has to look into it.
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Well if/when it gets approved, I think it will make a fine roleplaying addition!
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I have a feeling there will be a significant uptick in weddings, parties, and drunken duels. :)
Hell, I'll actually go through with a marriage this time.
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Just a short note: Much of the details of marriage are solved in Might & Fealty and the code is Open Source so you can look it up. There are technical solutions like how to store it in the DB as well there.
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Thanks for your input, Tom!
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Good, this should be a fun addition to the game