BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: Samboji on December 03, 2017, 07:00:08 AM
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Sol on Dwilight has had a rough time of late. Split off from their original Realm, then their ruler and Swordfell's were deposed by the Titan's because they decided it was cheating.
So we all RP'd our butts off. Two entire governments were formed. Similar, yes, and even in Alliance with each other (we are both getting attacked by the same foreign power, and have much history together), and even are now RPing the changeover of the ruling position from the previous holders.
We're all doing it as "totally not a coup detat", so nicey nicey, but there's probably no way the former rulers are getting back their positions easily.
And so, I'm now Imperator of Sol. IE, ruler.
But I was banker (Overseer) and general (Archmarshal), now I'm not.
I'm also not Lord of my previous region, a mountain region called North Divide.
The Realm of Sol also has no duchies instituted any more.
I did accidentally appoint one of the accused by the Titans as Archmarshal, but only because our recently established government was stripped of all positions. I would have appointed her Overseer, instead, in hindsight.
Is all this normal?
No duchies, no positions for the new ruler, can only appoint one person to one position, realm "resurfaced" to new, just because I ran for Ruler? Kind of seems like another kick to the crotch after all we've been through, that few seem to see as "against the spirit of the game" anyway.
Sambojin
(aka Franklin El Gato)
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Sol on Dwilight has had a rough time of late. Split off from their original Realm, then their ruler and Swordfell's were deposed by the Titan's because they decided it was cheating.
Not that Titans THOUGHT splitting off from the original realm was cheating. That was cheating because it happened in the middle of an ongoing war and the capital was located inside of the realm they were fighting. Because of this, the new realm has managed to shortened the distance to the front line significantly. Plus people involved did it while knowing it would grant them advantages. According to Anaris, Crixus in particular was punished heavily as he was caught breaching other rules on top.
We're all doing it as "totally not a coup detat", so nicey nicey, but there's probably no way the former rulers are getting back their positions easily.
They should be able to run for elections/be appointed in 2 months.
And so, I'm now Imperator of Sol. IE, ruler.
But I was banker (Overseer) and general (Archmarshal), now I'm not.
I'm also not Lord of my previous region, a mountain region called North Divide.
The Realm of Sol also has no duchies instituted any more.
You are no longer a lord because you are a ruler. You can't have a liege who has you as his/her liege. Not sure about banker and general positions.
I did accidentally appoint one of the accused by the Titans as Archmarshal, but only because our recently established government was stripped of all positions. I would have appointed her Overseer, instead, in hindsight.
I believe the character that was punished can't run for positions he/she was stripped of. So for any other positions, that person can run/be appointed.
Is all this normal?
No duchies, no positions for the new ruler, can only appoint one person to one position, realm "resurfaced" to new, just because I ran for Ruler? Kind of seems like another kick to the crotch after all we've been through, that few seem to see as "against the spirit of the game" anyway.
Your duchy should still be there but the position of duke should be empty. You can appoint yourself to the duchy probably. Unless you are new to the ruler position and unfamiliar with how to do it.
You are not supposed to hoard all positions. If your realm is that small, then maybe you should seriously consider recruiting more people or shouldn't have seceded in the first place. Maybe thinking before acting would have helped? Then again it wasn't really your fault for being stuck in that position. I feel bad you are paying for what your ruler and Crixus did but they had to be punished. That is why Titans did what they did. They don't do it just so they can screw people over. I don't get why people think that way.
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Because over the years, I have seen the Titans arbitrarily do many things, that ruin at least my fun of the game. And I tend to play in the spirit of the game.
That is why people think that.
Well, such is Battlemaster.
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And so, I'm now Imperator of Sol. IE, ruler.
But I was banker (Overseer) and general (Archmarshal), now I'm not.
These are some of the remaining minor distinctions between government systems. Judges only keep their judgeship when elected ruler in tyrannies. If a general is elected ruler in a democracy, republic, or theocracy, they lose their generalship. If a banker is elected ruler in a democracy or republic, they lose their banker position.
I'm also not Lord of my previous region, a mountain region called North Divide.
If a dukeless lord is elected a ruler, they are removed from the lordship since they can't swear fealty to someone (to the duke as lord) under them (to duke as ruler) in the hierarchy. You should have received an explanation about this when it occurred.
The Realm of Sol also has no duchies instituted any more.
I'm not sure why you think this is the case, because its not. Or rather, what are you seeing that makes you think there are no duchies?
can only appoint one person to one position
Rulers cannot appoint themselves to government positions in republics and democracies. Rulers in monarchies cannot appoint themselves to be judges. In non-tyrannies, you cannot appoint someone to two council positions. It is possible to be elected to those positions.
, realm "resurfaced" to new, just because I ran for Ruler?
Not sure what you mean by this.
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It feels that way because people only see one side of the decision. Most people don't know who they are playing with as well as they think they do. Titans get to access all your letters both public and private. So yeah there are cases where you thought you were playing with a fantastic person but he turns out to be a dreadful a-hole toward those who play against him. Titans are titans. There are more than just one person making the decision. People talk and discuss between themselves. Some people are against punishing the person while others are for it. Also, they don't agree on how to punish that person. Don't forget titans also change. Some titans quit the game or leave the position and new people join in. They need time to get adjusted. Titans are volunteers who were selected because they were good players and they were considered to be rather fair. They obviously make mistakes every now and then but they never favor one realm over others. Most of the time when one of the titan's realm is involved, they stay away from that case to maintain impartiality. Don't simply call them out because they made a decision you don't like.
But then again, I think what I said will just fall over deaf ears. Such is Battlemaster indeed.
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That was cheating because it happened in the middle of an ongoing war and the capital was located inside of the realm they were fighting.
This is inaccurate. There are many ways a secession could go down, and have gone down, in wartime with a capital at or near the frontline.
the new realm has managed to shortened the distance to the front line significantly. Plus people involved did it while knowing it would grant them advantages.
This is more accurate.
I believe the character that was punished can't run for positions he/she was stripped of. So for any other positions, that person can run/be appointed.
Yes, technically, because of how it was coded. But I do think its in bad taste.
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Vita:
All those rules about when elected ruler, which positions you lose etc, is this written down anywhere?
I feel this is the first time I've ever read this (and I'm not actively looking at the code, I mean player-faced communication). So I feel it should be written down somewhere ;D
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Vita:
All those rules about when elected ruler, which positions you lose etc, is this written down anywhere?
I feel this is the first time I've ever read this (and I'm not actively looking at the code, I mean player-faced communication). So I feel it should be written down somewhere ;D
I don't think so. It's, as it has been said, one of the arcane differences between the government systems.
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Because over the years, I have seen the Titans arbitrarily do many things, that ruin at least my fun of the game. And I tend to play in the spirit of the game.
The Titans never act arbitrarily. If you think it's arbitrary, it's because you don't have all the information.
If you want more information, you should ask.
We won't always give it (sometimes there's confidential information involved), but that's pretty rare these days.
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I don't know. I mean - I'll leave aside wether or not someone was punished fairly or not. But as I see it about 15-20 players got punished for acts of one person. That's definitely not cool in my opinion. I've seen like four or five people talk about quitting over it. When you see not directly involved people talk about quitting, you know that things could be handled differently.
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It was actually done by two people. 15-20 people were not affected. Did any one lose titles other than the top two involved? No. However, they were two of rulers who were punished. Maybe that is why you think 15-20 people were affected. Also, let's not forget Crixus was holding 3 government positions, 1 ducal, 1 city lordship, and marshal. I mean it is hard to not get affected when someone hoards that many titles. It is Swordfell's fault for relying so heavily on one person.
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It was actually done by two people. 15-20 people were not affected. Did any one lose titles other than the top two involved? No. However, they were two of rulers who were punished. Maybe that is why you think 15-20 people were affected. Also, let's not forget Crixus was holding 3 government positions, 1 ducal, 1 city lordship, and marshal. I mean it is hard to not get affected when someone hoards that many titles. It is Swordfell's fault for relying so heavily on one person.
Honestly? This argument is an inch away from "you don't like it? then don't play". And I wonder why battlemaster is struggling with maintaining playerbase.
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Realms do tend to get effected, but the total effect for Sol/Swordfell was only mainly a few days without a ruler I believe, or are there other things you are refering to specifically?
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Not that Titans THOUGHT splitting off from the original realm was cheating. That was cheating because it happened in the middle of an ongoing war and the capital was located inside of the realm they were fighting. Because of this, the new realm has managed to shortened the distance to the front line significantly. Plus people involved did it while knowing it would grant them advantages. According to Anaris, Crixus in particular was punished heavily as he was caught breaching other rules on top.
They should be able to run for elections/be appointed in 2 months.
You are no longer a lord because you are a ruler. You can't have a liege who has you as his/her liege. Not sure about banker and general positions.
I believe the character that was punished can't run for positions he/she was stripped of. So for any other positions, that person can run/be appointed.
Your duchy should still be there but the position of duke should be empty. You can appoint yourself to the duchy probably. Unless you are new to the ruler position and unfamiliar with how to do it.
You are not supposed to hoard all positions. If your realm is that small, then maybe you should seriously consider recruiting more people or shouldn't have seceded in the first place. Maybe thinking before acting would have helped? Then again it wasn't really your fault for being stuck in that position. I feel bad you are paying for what your ruler and Crixus did but they had to be punished. That is why Titans did what they did. They don't do it just so they can screw people over. I don't get why people think that way.
This is inaccurate. There are many ways a secession could go down, and have gone down, in wartime with a capital at or near the frontline.
This is more accurate.
Yes, technically, because of how it was coded. But I do think its in bad taste.
Hmmm... Looking at Sol and Swordfell case, I cannot help but wonder if on East Continent I create a new realm on Duchy of Kalmar and Kazakh. As long as the new realm capital is not in Kalmar city, I will not be shortening distance to the front line, am I correct? ???
I have asked before, creating a new realm during ongoing war is okay as long as you do not then put your new realm capital to the frontline.
Realms do tend to get effected, but the total effect for Sol/Swordfell was only mainly a few days without a ruler I believe, or are there other things you are refering to specifically?
I think the effects the players are talking about it, the Swordfell current war against Astrum, which spill over to Sol during the times of their no -Rulers times. Other realm has stepped in to ask for no war while negotiations are ongoing.
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Honestly? This argument is an inch away from "you don't like it? then don't play". And I wonder why battlemaster is struggling with maintaining playerbase.
I don't see it that way at all.
2 players got punished. No one's forcing you to rely on these players. The bad situation you are in is the result of these bad players' actions, not the titans'. They broke the rules, and the consequences for it are clear.
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Sounds like you wanted Titans to just let them be. Then why do we even have Titans?
Like Chenier said. Two people who breached the rules got punished. End of the story. You just learn to play around it.
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That does not mean we can't somewhat take it into account though. But that is what's happening now IC anyway.
And when I rejoined with this account we had a similar situation in Sirion. Perdan had just invaded the north, crushing us and Sirion's general got locked for suggesting what unit type to order. The player disagreed also and ragequit leaving Sirion in chaos. I couldn't blame the titams or Perdan for the punishment on one of the few rules we have, or Perdan for continuing their war. It did mean we had to reorganize our military quickly though.
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It wouldn't be a punishment if the titans had waited for him to finish the war.
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Aye, that's the real issue here. Its like, say, how everyone in Obia'Syela and Xavax would shout bloody murder and threaten to quit if JeVondair cheated and got in trouble, because JV is so profoundly integral to those realms that everyone else would feel as if they got punished too.
Unfortunate side-effect of leadership positions is that when your leader screws up, it screws everyone.
*points to every !@#$ty president, monarch, prime minister, general, ambassador, and so forth throughout recorded history of the Human species*
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Aye, that's the real issue here. Its like, say, how everyone in Obia'Syela and Xavax would shout bloody murder and threaten to quit if JeVondair cheated and got in trouble, because JV is so profoundly integral to those realms that everyone else would feel as if they got punished too.
Unfortunate side-effect of leadership positions is that when your leader screws up, it screws everyone.
*points to every !@#$ty president, monarch, prime minister, general, ambassador, and so forth throughout recorded history of the Human species*
My point exactly. You can't really wipe out all realm government and most of it's resources without affecting every player in the realm.
What disturbs me more though is that people would still count it victory and cheer if every player from the enemy realm quit battlemaster. Of course I'm hyperbolizing here, but not by much. I've actually witnessed people cheering OOC that Domitus player decided to quit due to Titan decision. I'm shocked at how much OOC hate flies around here.
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My point exactly. You can't really wipe out all realm government and most of it's resources without affecting every player in the realm.
What disturbs me more though is that people would still count it victory and cheer if every player from the enemy realm quit battlemaster. Of course I'm hyperbolizing here, but not by much. I've actually witnessed people cheering OOC that Domitus player decided to quit due to Titan decision. I'm shocked at how much OOC hate flies around here.
Even though I wasn't a fan of his playing style I most certainly do not cheer for such a decision. At the same time I've yet to see anyone say it is a good thing that he's quitting. I've seen people remark that he should accept the consequences of the punishment, but that is the furthest I've seen it going. So in this case you might have more knowledge than me?
I think we're also exeggarating the matter a little bit in the sense that any negative message is now emplified and strongly reinforces this thought whereas all the others are 'ignored'. The majority of players have no hate, but the few who do are by far the most vocal. The majority of players are trying to find their ways in this minefield and so with honest and earnest attempts, but those you don't hear so loudly, but I can assure you they are the majority.
Tell me in earnest, are you dissatisfied with how matters are progressing IC? Do you believe suddenly without Crixus Swordfell is done for and destroyed already?
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Nah, I don't have any issue with how matters are IC. I understand that it's natural for people to extrapolate their (IC) hatred for Crixus to entire Swordfell. And having overwhelmingly superior powers against me and my realm... honestly I enjoy the "hard-mode". Makes the eventual victory that much more tasty. And the character I play there thrives in navigating impossible situations. So honestly IC on dwi is almost perfect if you don't count the titan decision practically undoing last ten months of my gameplay there even though I never broke any rules... ;)
The only thing that aches me is that enmity seeps through to the OOC. It's the first time I've noticed it too, cause in all the other IC conflicts I partook in (weren't that many - year old guy here) OOC between the sides was entirely jovial, with occasional friendly banter here and there. But then again perhaps I'm naming an elephant in the room now because I'm just a green "new guy", perhaps that's the standard in battlemaster I was oblivious too for all this time. I don't know. I know that when someone carries the grudge for in-game stuff it puts me off, and I imagine it's one of the things that would put off most of the people.
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Hey there MTYL, Bennet,
Maybe I'll be treading on thin ice here but the OOC animosity is an issue at times. People are keen to blame the Titans / leadership for perceived slights, wrongdoings, shortcomings and what have you.
I myself was punished once but instead of fighting it, I saw the rule they cited and fair, I did just that. Unbeknownst to me at the time though that such a rule existed. However, I moved on and it was better afterwards. I should note that there were a lot of people ingame who were outraged or simply shocked at me being punished. I calmed them down and asked them not to argue the ruling.
What we're seeing today is the opposite and its a drag. We as players must trust the developers and we must trust the Titans in so much that they do try to do what is best for the game and in their best reasoning / ability enforce the rules. Doing so will cause some strife and some difficulty but that comes with the territory of setting boundaries.
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That's the downside of having a game where people heavily invest their time into. Eventually they forget they are playing characters. They become their characters without thinking. All the insults their characters get can become personal attacks when that happens.
It is unfortunate Tomislav is upset enough to quit the game. But if that is his decision, we have to respect it. It is sometimes important to vent things but it is also important not to let that go too far. I doubt any player would be too thrilled about a player quitting. It is good to have a character you can hate. Gives you something to work toward.
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I don't know. I mean - I'll leave aside wether or not someone was punished fairly or not. But as I see it about 15-20 players got punished for acts of one person. That's definitely not cool in my opinion. I've seen like four or five people talk about quitting over it. When you see not directly involved people talk about quitting, you know that things could be handled differently.
I was in a similar boat to you at one point with one of my characters from my old family. A VERY similar vote.
Aquilegia used to be exactly where Swordfell is now. Only it suddenly turned out that the founder of the realm, and two thirds of the nobles in it, were all the same multi who eventually got bored of what he considered to be "winning" Battlemaster and deleted all his characters overnight.
So I joined a realm which had like 8 nobles in it, myself included, after this mass deletion and only three regions. You could say we were screwed over by the loss of our ruler, banker, judge, general and duke all at once.
But actually it was one of the funnest experiences I had in the game. We were forced to work together and had to constantly struggle in PvE to stabilise the realm. It was only on a small scale but every last tiny thing became vitally important.
In the end we failed but that was only because (from an IC perspective) some Astroist bastards decided they'd rather have Turbul go rogue than appoint a non-Astroist lord to it, which in turn sparked off the Aquilegian civil war and left the realm with too few players to be viable.
It was a great experience and it was fun. There's no reason why Swordfell and Sol can't have the same fun experience now if the players determine to make the best of it :)
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My point exactly. You can't really wipe out all realm government and most of it's resources without affecting every player in the realm.
What disturbs me more though is that people would still count it victory and cheer if every player from the enemy realm quit battlemaster. Of course I'm hyperbolizing here, but not by much. I've actually witnessed people cheering OOC that Domitus player decided to quit due to Titan decision. I'm shocked at how much OOC hate flies around here.
What are we gonna do, scrap all the rules because we don't want to upset cheaters and those who back cheaters?
I mean, sure, we could probably streamline the rules a lot, but what do you expect people to do, cheer the bad players?
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Nah, I don't have any issue with how matters are IC. I understand that it's natural for people to extrapolate their (IC) hatred for Crixus to entire Swordfell. And having overwhelmingly superior powers against me and my realm... honestly I enjoy the "hard-mode". Makes the eventual victory that much more tasty. And the character I play there thrives in navigating impossible situations. So honestly IC on dwi is almost perfect if you don't count the titan decision practically undoing last ten months of my gameplay there even though I never broke any rules... ;)
The only thing that aches me is that enmity seeps through to the OOC. It's the first time I've noticed it too, cause in all the other IC conflicts I partook in (weren't that many - year old guy here) OOC between the sides was entirely jovial, with occasional friendly banter here and there. But then again perhaps I'm naming an elephant in the room now because I'm just a green "new guy", perhaps that's the standard in battlemaster I was oblivious too for all this time. I don't know. I know that when someone carries the grudge for in-game stuff it puts me off, and I imagine it's one of the things that would put off most of the people.
The titans didn't invalidate your progress, Crixus, the guy you supported, did. He betrayed you, the titan's reaction was neither arbitrary nor unpredictable.
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Chenier you have like waaay wrong view of the entire thing. I'm surprised it is even possible to be this wrong. I'm not sure what are you trying to achieve here.
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How so? I'm curious to hear your perspective on this.
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Since you asked Crypt, here's explanation what I ment:
What are we gonna do, scrap all the rules because we don't want to upset cheaters and those who back cheaters?
Here he implies that that's what I meant - "scrapping the rules" etc. It's a serious overinterpretation at best, I never suggested anything of the sort. Later he implies that other players in Swordfell "back cheaters". But they didn't have a say in this, how come "not having a say in something" is backing it? Yes they could've protested and be banned or quit the realm, but half of them even didn't knew that it's going to happen untill it happened and most them saw precisely the same kind of secession not being as much as frowned upon by anyone. And honestly - have you ever seen players protesting against some a bit fishy but universally accepted behavior en masse by leaving the realm? I'm only a year old player but I'm certain you haven't. Not going to extreme lengths to protest something you disagree with is not "backing it".
I mean, sure, we could probably streamline the rules a lot, but what do you expect people to do, cheer the bad players?
Here he implies that I expect people to cheer bad players. Not cheering the fact that someone's quitting the game is equal to "cheering the bad players"?
The titans didn't invalidate your progress, Crixus, the guy you supported, did. He betrayed you, the titan's reaction was neither arbitrary nor unpredictable.
Here he assumes he knows what progress I'm talking about, and based on his (completely wrong) assumption creates a (still incoherent even if it was based on a right assumption) arguement. He said "Crixus, the guy you supported" - which is a false statement. Actually, let me dress the entire logic structure of the last sentence into different vocabulary to highlight the nonsense and illustrate how appaling it is:
Your parents didn't raise you, Bill Gates, the guy you know in person, did. He birthed you, your parents' reaction was neither peaceful nor calm.
I'll pass over the fact that his entire response in it's construction accounts for my "hard feelings" regarding what I said about Titan's decision affecting my gameplay in a negative way. Those hard feelings by the time I wrote the comment he's responding to were "mild annoyance" at best, which I signalised with a wink at the end of that sentence.
And finally all he said was based on the assumption that the main reason for the ban was strategic secession, when it really wasn't. Strategic secession was just a pretext and micromanaging was the main reason for the punishment. I saw nearly exact same secessions, at least two, with noone being punished for them.
So voila.
tl;dr - "I'm surprised it is even possible to be this wrong." - if he ment it, or - "I'm not sure what are you trying to achieve here." - if he was just teasing me with ironic, intentional use of logical fallacies and bad eristics.
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Don't forget not all behaviours get reported. When someone gets reported, that person is not only going to be punished for what he was reported for, he may get punished for anything Titans find along the way. So punishments can stack up pretty quickly if the person has been doing something seriously wrong without the titans knowing.
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Crixus has been hailed as a problematic player for a very long time. Yet the players of Swordfell gave him free reign to continue this and to keep hoarding more and more.
Now he overtly broke the rules. And he got punished for it.
And people are protesting... what exactly? What on earth do you see that is worth protesting, worth threatening to quit over?
Your parents didn't raise you, Bill Gates, the guy you know in person, did. He birthed you, your parents' reaction was neither peaceful nor calm.
What now? Those sentences make zero sense. None of it makes sense. I can't even agree or disagree with the statement because I'm utterly clueless as to what its meaning is intended to be.
And to get it straight, no one's cheering over anyone quitting. But that doesn't mean we should sympathize. As far as I can tell from what has been said so far, those players complaining have zero legitimate grievances.
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Yeah that sentence makes zero sense. Not sure what he was trying to prove that sentence.
I understand removing Crixus impacted everyone in Swordfell but I am sure players will overcome.
Plus, with him out of the picture, people can finally split the titles.
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Indeed, not everything gets reported and Titans don't go *looking* for things to punish. They're too busy being your fellow players. And yes, if Titans find other rule infractions, they will also punish them. As an admin, I have full access to what the Titans see and do, and that is exactly what happened here.
Crixus was reported for strategic secession. This means seceding in order to circumvent recruiting-in-capital-only restriction. It was also noticed he was sending incredibly detailed orders about exactly which actions to take, even telling the character who seceded the exact details of the realm's name, government et cetera. Telling other characters which estates to occupy. This is excessive and leaves no choice or involvement from players. BattleMaster is fundamentally a game of peer interaction, not a game of minmaxing. Coming from a ruler, with the responsibility to the game as a government member, and significant influence over the players of their realm, this is harassment.
Regarding other secessions, Titans cannot act on what they are not knowledgeable about. Titans also have the capability to look at more evidence than a player does, and may reach a different conclusion based upon what any single player may observe.
I would also note that Titans have, for many years, been quiet lenient and inclined towards warnings, with the exception of multicheaters who are instantly locked. There are remarkably few times the Titans move to act more significantly than private or public warnings, and when they do, it is usually because of either the significance of an infraction, a past history of infractions by players, holding a government position with more responsibility, or a long-time player who should know better, or some combination of the aforementioned.
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And since many warnings are private, you don't often see them. So some people think Titans come out and hammer people for no reason. There are cases when a person was warned several times privately. There are also cases where Titans need to act quickly. When Titans do come down hard, it is often the person who was punished stepped over Inalienable Rights or other big No No's.
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If a government members breaks the government rules, or otherwise abuse their position, it is completely warranted to remove them from their positions. This has been the policy for well over a decade, if not all of BattleMaster's history. Yes, it affects the players in their realms, that is inevitable in any punishment. But the players were being affected by the rules infractions already. Removing them removes that player from continuing to abuse their position. The Titans are interested in enforcing fair play, by the rules of the game, not in preventing players from being affected by unforeseen circumstances. Sometimes in life, !@#$ happens. This is simulated in BM by the existence of bugs, and rarely, Titan involvement.
As noted on the Government Rules wiki page, "This is a game, not the military, even if it simulates a martial society. Try to guide people. Work with suggestions and help and leave people their autonomy. A strict hierarchy of orders and blind followers is more efficient, yes. It also causes people to lose the fun and leave the game." This was the specific issue with Crixus's specific micromanaging orders.
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I can personally vouch for the "private message unless you're a longtime player who should know better."
I got hit with one of those about a year ago. I did learn from it though and stopped.
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Of course it makes zero sense. It's entire purpose was to make zero sense. It was the same logical structure as Chenier's sentence I quoted before, only with a different vocabulary. To point out how nonsensical it was even though it made apparent sense thanks to corelative vocabulary.
Nevermind. I rest my case. You're right, I'm wrong. I indeed was making serious grieviances, uhm... unknowingly, but now you set me straight and I see the error of my ways, so I won't be mad about it anymore. Because I totally was mad... apparently. But now I'm not! Thanks. ;)
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Well. Anyway. I'm out. I just left the game.
I'll take the time to read the above posts later.
But it's a game. If it starts seeming like a chore, and you couldn't play your character "properly" (considering Dwilight is the SMA continent, and being wishy-washy on stuff isn't Franklin's thing, but game mechanics was putting him there), easy. Don't. There's other games.
I'm not doing it as a protest. I just hope that the next time the Titan's think they're punishing one or two people's behaviour in-game, that they realize they may be punishing 10-12 others that were just bystanders. And making it an absolute !@#$ing chore to play in-character, yet you're really just trying your best to pick up the pieces their arbitrarily bull!@#$ decisions put in front of other players to try and recover any sort of story from.
Me? Couldn't be bothered. Got better things to do.
Try not to !@#$ up 10+ other people's game while trying to punish one or two. It's fairly good advice.
Thanks all. It's been fun. Until it wasn't.
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Indeed. When it becomes a chore, that is when you leave.
Too bad things did not work out for you. Bye.
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As a teeny tiny bit of other advice, maybe being a little bit nicer sometimes lappallanch, to people trying to ask vaguely valid newbie questions on the Helpline bit of the forum would make the Titans look a bit less !@#$witish.
Anyway. Have a good one all.
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As a teeny tiny bit of other advice, maybe being a little bit nicer sometimes lappallanch, to people trying to ask vaguely valid newbie questions on the Helpline bit of the forum would make the Titans look a bit less !@#$witish.
Anyway. Have a good one all.
What do I have to do anything with titans? You thought I was a titan? ROFL. Anyway, have a good one as well.
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Perhaps you are not a good one to say then what "was cheating", if you are just a player of the game.
Nor, "perhaps you should think before you acted".
Not necessarily a toxic game, it has a quite nice community generally. But, wow. There are some....
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Samboji, you're right that it was a helpline question thread and it unnecessarily devolved into weird discussion about titans decision and toxic behavior. And I contributed to derailing this thread. I am truly sorry man. Battlemaster is kinda like writing a huge co-op story and that can be mighty fun. If anything I did took away your joy of it I sincerely apologize.
I hope you're ok, and see you man, take care.
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Cheers. Will do. Thanks.
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Samboji. I am sorry but you were given a thorough explanation by those in the dev team who actually have more access than titans on why everything happened the way it did. You kept crying about how you were affected. Yes you were affected. How is that the fault of Titans? Do you even read what you are saying? They had to punish a player who held 3 government positions out of four, 1 ducal out of two, 1 city lordship and 1 marshal position. One person held over three quarter of all available high ranking positions in a single realm and you thought they could somehow avoid affecting people? If you really believe that I don't know what to tell you. Just blame the titans and leave in peace. Stop wasting your time.
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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?
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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?
OOC it's not technically breaking the rules unless it's actively undermining gameplay for other players in someway.
But IC there should be zero tolerance for it and personally I have very little respect for any realm where one person is hoarding power and the other players in it aren't working IC to overthrow them.
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Shiiiet... And I thought I was doing the right thing when I decided Xavax Xerarchs are a prophet-like position and we aren't supposed to own duchies.
PFffffft.
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I tried a year or so back to get rid of Crixus, and we were mostly successful. We had him down to just the duchy and lordship, then he started forcing any new members of the realm to swear to him and vote for him in elections or he would remove them from his duchy.
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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?
Wait, weren't you having a character in Obia'Syela? You tell me how that's acceptable. For me OS is a very fun realm and I see JV as awesome player organizing lotsa fun for peeps.
OOC it's not technically breaking the rules unless it's actively undermining gameplay for other players in someway.
But IC there should be zero tolerance for it and personally I have very little respect for any realm where one person is hoarding power and the other players in it aren't working IC to overthrow them.
Ditto, don't you have character in Obia'Syela? Why do you have a character in realm you don't respect?
JV had 100% of high ranking positions in OS for quite some time. I'm not saying he did anything wrong, I'm not equalizing him with Domitius, I'm just pointing out hipocrisy.
I tried a year or so back to get rid of Crixus, and we were mostly successful. We had him down to just the duchy and lordship, then he started forcing any new members of the realm to swear to him and vote for him in elections or he would remove them from his duchy.
Your plan was no good and when new players turned to you to ask for guidance you responded with complete silence. They had no choice but to back Crixus. And btw - if not for the titan decision Crixus situation would be dealt with IC, like within the next two weeks or so.
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Ditto, don't you have character in Obia'Syela? Why do you have a character in realm you don't respect?
JV had 100% of high ranking positions in OS for quite some time. I'm not saying he did anything wrong, I'm not equalizing him with Domitius, I'm just pointing out hipocrisy.
Nope, you're completely wrong. I've never played in OS and I have no desire to do so - the religion they've got going doesn't fit with how I like to play my characters. Maybe do your research next time? I do make it quite clear that I play the Sussex family...
Also, the only reason why what's happened with Crixus is so objectionable to you is because you're adopting a negative attitude. As I've already talked about in this thread, I joined a realm based in Flowrestown immediately after it had been reduced to like 6 nobles thanks to a multi quitting the game. We had worse problems than you do - a sudden power vacuum AND non-stop rogue attacks AND too few nobles to boot.
But it was actually one of the funnest times I had in the game precisely because no-one bitched about it. We all RP'd it as a plague striking down many prominent nobles and tried to work together to stabilise things. It was challenging but that challenge and teamwork was what made it great.
This isn't a disaster, this is an opportunity. An opportunity for new people to show leadership and for the realm to find a new identity that doesn't centre on just one power-gamer. You've got plenty of nobles and regions in decent shape - the worst potential outcome here is that you lose Unterstrom and have to reconquer the regions belonging to Sol. That's not a disaster, it's a challenge.
Besides, you can't change anything at this point so you'd be doing yourself, your realm and everyone else a favour if, instead of complaining about a completely legitimate titan punishment, you just focused on how to make the best of things.
Honestly, if my character on DWI wasn't already have her own agenda in D'Hara then I'd be really tempted to join Swordfell right now to enjoy the dynamism that usually follows a sudden power vacuum.
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Also, JV had lots of key positions temporarily. There's nothing wrong when that happens out of necessity. There is something wrong when one player continues to hoard positions in a realm long after there are plenty of nobles who'd be capable of holding some of those positions instead.
If you've got a realm with only 4 nobles then it's excusable to have 1 player as ruler/duke/general/margrave/marshal or whatever. It's really not excusable once you've got 8 or more nobles.
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I have this feeling of negativity within this topic and I don't quite like it. MTYL has a right to express his concerns with a current situation and it appears at least as if 5 gives are coming aggressively at him.
Even if it's not your intention, it does appear so and would explain much of his defensive attitude in return. I'd suggest we turn to a more constructive tone from now on.
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Samboji I'm sad to see you leave as well. In my view a titan decision always affects something, even when they do the right thing. In turn I think it's the job of the players to then take in this decision and make sure the effects of any group are not too large.
I can only speak for my own actions and from some in Astrum when I say that Swordfell is given some extra slack because of this, to ensure that all players still have a proper place to play and enjoy the game. In fact, the decision may have even benefitted Swordfell in this regard.
As to having many titles, it sometimes still happens. The example brought up here: Even when OS had 14 nobles or so JV had all the titles (save for General) because she wanted to promote the priesthood and thus she'd relinquish them only to priests (theocracy as such). It is true that the more titles you have, the more impact it will have on your realm when something happens and I typically find people avoiding joining or staying in realms where one person has all the titles, so it usually solves itself when it is detrimental to the atmosphere.
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I just hope that the next time the Titan's think they're punishing one or two people's behaviour in-game, that they realize they may be punishing 10-12 others that were just bystanders.
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Try not to !@#$ up 10+ other people's game while trying to punish one or two. It's fairly good advice.
You were not punished. You may have been affected. There is no way to remove offending government members from their position without affecting other characters. There is no way that offending government members should be allowed to continue to abuse their position without consequence. Your not being affected by a punishment does not trump punishing the offending character, especially a government member misusing his position.
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What do I have to do anything with titans? You thought I was a titan? ROFL. Anyway, have a good one as well.
Zakky, you have been talking in this thread as if you know how Titans operate. You would not have that knowledge without having been a Titan at some point in the past. Over the last many months, while you are often in the general ballpark of accuracy, you were not a dev yourself, and have often explained mechanics misleadingly based upon your own understanding, which may be more than the average player, but not as much as anyone whose read the code. Please think about what you are saying. And yes, as Samboji points out, that includes the tone of your explanations and not talking down to other players. You can be very helpful in explaining to players, indeed, but sometimes its slightly off the mark, or can get aggressive. Just slow down and think before you hit reply. Sometimes, when I do that, I realize I should reword or even just not reply.
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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?
It's not an OOC rule that one cannot hold them. But it is looked down upon for how it affects the realm and new players. Each government system, as explained in my explanation for Samboji as the beginning of the thread, has different limits on how one may acquire government positions. To acquire that many government titles requires complicity of the realm to elect the characters into titles.
ICly, it should absolutely be looked down upon as a power-hungry tyrant.
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Zakky, you have been talking in this thread as if you know how Titans operate. You would not have that knowledge without having been a Titan at some point in the past. Over the last many months, while you are often in the general ballpark of accuracy, you were not a dev yourself, and have often explained mechanics misleadingly based upon your own understanding, which may be more than the average player, but not as much as anyone whose read the code. Please think about what you are saying. And yes, as Samboji points out, that includes the tone of your explanations and not talking down to other players. You can be very helpful in explaining to players, indeed, but sometimes its slightly off the mark, or can get aggressive. Just slow down and think before you hit reply. Sometimes, when I do that, I realize I should reword or even just not reply.
In his defense, most of what he said, if not all, is "common knowledge" to any of us old timers.
I can get that it can give the impression to a newbie that he is authoritorial in the matter, but I neither think that posing as a titan was his intent, nor that whatever experience he may have previously had as a dev/coder/mod/titan/magistrate/whatever is the sole source of his knowledge.
Every time a case like this shows up, it's always the same scenario. Those who backed the cheaters whine, threaten to quit, talk as if the rules are for everyone but them, and that somehow, in the grand scheme of things, those people who backed the cheaters are the true victims of it all. And each time, explanations about how titan decisions are made are shared, to help ease any feeling of arbitrary persecution.
MTYL... The line you are referring to is
The titans didn't invalidate your progress, Crixus, the guy you supported, did. He betrayed you, the titan's reaction was neither arbitrary nor unpredictable.
If you truly do not understand what was said here, allow me to reformulate:
The titans' judgement is not an independent act. It is not a cause. It does not spring out of nothingness. Titan sanctions appear when, and only when, rules are broken (beyond reasonable doubt). Yes, they have the authority to use their judgement when it comes to the severity, but they don't use it arbitrarily, the decision is perfectly in line with previous examples. So if your complaint is that your realm is filled with empty positions, then what caused that? The titan judgement it would seem, by the complain, but that's just a symptom. The root cause of the positions being empty is Crixus breaking the rules. And he should have known that breaking the rules in this way would have exactly this effect. He's not a newbie. So with full knowledge of the risks, he chose to take actions that would lead to the current situation.
If you are angry about the amount of positions left empty, don't be angry with the titans for doing their job, be angry 1) with Crixus for blatantly breaking the rules, and 2) with yourselves for giving so damn many titles to him. The hell guys, concentrating power this much is stupid. Where would you be now if Crixus had been captured in battle, or had taken a serious wound that wouldn't heal? No better off. Swordfell's players in this regard have no one to blame but themselves.
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Interesting! No offense meant, for the record. Just curious.
And like Antoinete said, there's a significant IC difference between temporarily holding multiple titles, and the long-term hoarding of power, compounded by tyrannical pressuring and threats of expulsion to any who refuse to comply.
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I tried a year or so back to get rid of Crixus, and we were mostly successful. We had him down to just the duchy and lordship, then he started forcing any new members of the realm to swear to him and vote for him in elections or he would remove them from his duchy.
...Ouch!
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Chenier, you are right. I'm sorry. I totally misunderstood what you ment. Thanks for explaining to me that you ment what you ment, because that wasn't clear to me before. You totally know why Crixus held this many positions and I should defer to your greater expertise in that matter, rather than assuming I know anything about it due to actually playing in Swordfell for a year. And you are right that noone in that realm was doing anything about it or was about to do anything about it. The fact that the players were affected by it so much is on them and on them alone, it's their fault and it serves them right. Let them quit! Good riddance. Thanks Chenier for being so awesome.
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Chenier, you are right. I'm sorry. I totally misunderstood what you ment. Thanks for explaining to me that you ment what you ment, because that wasn't clear to me before. You totally know why Crixus held this many positions and I should defer to your greater expertise in that matter, rather than assuming I know anything about it due to actually playing in Swordfell for a year. And you are right that noone in that realm was doing anything about it or was about to do anything about it. The fact that the players were affected by it so much is on them and on them alone, it's their fault and it serves them right. Let them quit! Good riddance. Thanks Chenier for being so awesome.
Not sure being sarcastic is the best way to deal with it. But nonetheless, Crixus is out Max is in and the war is over. Everything seems to be fine. Hopefully, Max won't become Crixus the Second. As for players quitting, it ain't new. If they want to quit, let them. If they want to play, good for them.
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Ander has a point. Its a player's prerogative whether he chooses to adapt to change or rage-quit over it.
If Crixus had fallen ill/died/quit and the exact same thing happened, would they have quit?
An interesting thought.
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But nonetheless, Crixus is out Max is in and the war is over.
Incorrect. Max is out as well.
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Incorrect. Max is out as well.
Please contact me on IRC or Discord.
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I think I'm just another fool who thinks this situation is handled poorly like Max, we're both Swordfells.
First of all, MTYL, I just found this thread and sorry if I decided to quit on you. I just read your OOC letter to me in game but it was a little too late for me to reply, 2 letters and 1 notification that Max has been deleted.
Let me just say that from my POV, it seems like the punishment doesn't accomplish what it intended to do. In other games, when you are cheating you get suspended or permanently banned depending on the gravity of the sin. So for discussion sake, let's say Crixus did cheat.
The Strategic Secession
Somehow people in Swordfell has been talking that the secession were planned from the time Astrum we're planning to install a new realm there. If so this has been months before the war but I don't have evidence. Let's just say that this is confirmed as actual strategic secession. The first punishment is a good wakeup call for him and could even be suspended from the game for a week!
The Hoarding of Power
I seriously can't find anywhere in the Wiki where this is written.
And if it's there somewhere:
Why remove him from the positions he was elected on? Are there evidences, that he coerced every Swordfell player into voting him? Why aren't people running against him? Is he threatening them in-game too?
Wouldn't overthrowing him in the game through rebellion and war be more awesome in experience and history stand point? Swordfell is a republic and I don't think Crixus will be there in position if the nobles under him don't want him there. Are there people in the realm dissatisfied with it? Then they aren't doing enough to battle the norm and yet we punish those who work to keep that power in there. To me, if I favor Crixus, it just feels like someone powerplayed and took the opportunity to get what intended all along with the help of a titan decision rather than plotting, scheming, and working with other people.
Repeated Offence
I've also heard that Crixus has been crossing the rules repeatedly already. Then wouldn't it be more sensible to just ban him outright so he can't try to bull!@#$ his way out dragging 5 nobles out of the game/realm with him because of some OOC message?
note: People here can't believe how the nobles of Swordfell live under the rule of Crixus. I play Purrcious of Vix in EC (democracy), Spindel of Fronen (republic). Swordfell's tyrannical environment was a really different way of playing especially knowing all the ruckus Crixus has been putting SA into. In all the games I played, I learned one thing important. Don't expect your fun to be the same fun as the others. I have paused nobles who've been jumping realms before Swordfell, Dwilight needed a war and Crixus was the villain we needed and now he's gone. RIP.
TLDR: I'm confused and disappointed but moving on.
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To clarify, the hoarding of power was not considered an issue by the Titans from what I've read but was brought up by other players as shocking.
What Crixus was punished for, if I read everything correctly is the strategic seccession, worsened by a degree of micro managing which borders harassment.
I'm just very sad though that so many quit...
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It is nigh impossible to get permanently banned from this game. You really REALLY have to try to get one and I've only seen one person banned permanently except those who multicheated.
As for Crixus, he did get suspended for like a day or two. If he was suspended for a whole week, his account would have been paused thus resulting in loss of all titles. So it would have accomplished the same thing but slower.
If people want to quit along with Crixus, there isn't much people can do to stop him. There are just too many ways to contact others. But would have been pretty good to suspend him for a week like you said to give people some time out.
It was just unfortunate that some people decided to quit but it isn't new. He had some people who were attached to him and they decided to quit along with their other friends.
As for strategic secession, to be honest it is always a wise idea to talk to a dev before pulling one unless it is a peaceful secession. If it is in the grey area, you definitely should talk to one to iron things out. Crixus admitted he was trying to gain advantage with the move and made it very clear that he knew everything.
It is probably for the best that people just move on from this distasteful event. It is all around just a lose-lose situation.
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I surprised this thread wasn't closed earlier. This was a recipe for disaster to let everyone bicker about a ruling than you're not supposed to discuss afterward.
I got a Titan judgement int he past few months and it clearly states to not take this discussion back to the forums. In fact you're not supposed to talk about it anywhere except in a direct email to Tom. Well, Tom doesn't really get involved anymore so that is just a waste of time.
So I understand coming to the forums for clarification. But this discussion is far beyond clarification. It's mutated into a heated and bitter battle between some. Why didn't the forum admins put a stop to this?
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Purrcious, why did you leave fronen? Did you delete permanently? Not coming back?