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BattleMaster => Development => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Chenier on September 07, 2018, 03:09:22 PM
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Title: Remove adventurers from the game
Summary: Delete all adventurers and prevent new ones from being created.
Details: Having 4 adventurers come out of the blue to kill a realm without a trace or explanation is pretty self-explanatory of how lame adventurers are to the game. They were meant as a side-game, and now with scrolls and portal stones, they are having more impact than the realms themselves.
Benefits: A return to more normal team play of realm vs realm, army vs army.
Possible Downsides or Exploits: None whatsoever, adventurers are lame and they've done enough harm already.
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Melodramatic much? You don't think there might be a less over-the-top solution for this specific problem?
Adventurers being able to use scrolls was a bug. It has now been fixed.
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Melodramatic much? You don't think there might be a less over-the-top solution for this specific problem?
Adventurers being able to use scrolls was a bug. It has now been fixed.
Honestly, I've advocated exactly this for quite some time now.
People aren't roleplaying advies are they are meant to. They form these ridiculous vast guilds where they organize large mobs (largely with their own free adventurer slots) in order to amass items at ridiculous rates, cast all kinds of magic, and perform espionage.
All the while, the legitimate adventurer game is boring. If you hunt, you tend to get killed as soon as your skills become not so bad. If you gather items, well... that's pretty boring in itself.
I don't think adventurers add anything positive to the game.
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Honestly, I've advocated exactly this for quite some time now.
People aren't roleplaying advies are they are meant to. They form these ridiculous vast guilds where they organize large mobs (largely with their own free adventurer slots) in order to amass items at ridiculous rates, cast all kinds of magic, and perform espionage.
All the while, the legitimate adventurer game is boring. If you hunt, you tend to get killed as soon as your skills become not so bad. If you gather items, well... that's pretty boring in itself.
I don't think adventurers add anything positive to the game.
Then don't play it until I've had a chance to improve it, which is on my TODO list (and I have some specific plans).
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I rather enjoy playing (and roleplaying) adventurer characters. They certainly add a positive element to MY game.
On a side note: Are adventurers now restricted from using portal stones? When you consider the result is always at the discretion of the mods, I do not see any reason why they should be restricted.
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I rather enjoy playing (and roleplaying) adventurer characters. They certainly add a positive element to MY game.
On a side note: Are adventurers now restricted from using portal stones? When you consider the result is always at the discretion of the mods, I do not see any reason why they should be restricted.
Portal stones are not scrolls. We blocked them from scrolls.
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Then don't play it until I've had a chance to improve it, which is on my TODO list (and I have some specific plans).
Playing adventurers doesn't procure me much fun.
Other people playing adventurers regularly detracts from my fun. Because it is consistently done against all the guidelines for them and the intent behind them. I loathe the adventurer guilds, I loathe how respected they almost universally are, and I loathe how they always find a way to be used in warfare with cheap gimmicks.
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Darn it.
That's one interesting game mechanic now denied to those of us who use adventurers.
Why was it determined to be a bug all of a sudden? And what's with the sudden call for their removal?
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I've been arguing this for a while on Discord. I just decided to file a formal feature request now.
The latest incident is a handful of advies coming into a capital, wounding *everyone*, turning lvl 4 walls into lvl 1 walls, destroying the militia, and conjuring 14k of rogues.
Advies aren't meant to be ICBMs.
I've hated every time they've been used for wars, this is just the most recent (and ridiculous) example.
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Darn it.
That's one interesting game mechanic now denied to those of us who use adventurers.
Why was it determined to be a bug all of a sudden? And what's with the sudden call for their removal?
Though I don't have any specific quotes to cite on this, I quite distinctly recall Tom's intention for adventurers being that they could not use scrolls.
He stated very clearly on many occasions that he intended the adventurer game and the noble game to be mostly separate. There were many instances where he could easily have added interactions allowing adventurers to participate actively in wars, but did not—or even explicitly prevented them from doing so, like making their ability to investigate the troops in a region not provide a scout report, but rather coding something completely new for them.
At some point, I'm not sure just when, the block on adventurers using scrolls was removed. To my knowledge, this is the first time anyone has made any organized effort to use adventurers in war as anything beyond extremely ineffective scouts (or gold mules, but that was an obvious abuse that has been both forbidden, and nerfed in the code).
If people had not gotten together to use scrolls to, essentially, completely obliterate a realm with no possible chance of blocking it, incidental use of magic by adventurers would have continued to be overlooked.
Basically, look to the people who organised this, because they're why you can't have nice things.
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Anaris, I play battlemaster for almost two years now and never have I ever said a bad word about devs. You guys always had (and continue to have) my utmost respect for all you do to keep it afloat.
But
That was a bad call. And saying things like:
Basically, look to the people who organised this, because they're why you can't have nice things.
is another bad call.
How many times have I heard that single-region realms should not exist and that people should work together and interact more.
But when they do work together and interact more and the effect is destruction of a single-region realm you punish the entire advy playerbase for it.
If you're going to disable advies from doing anything any time they do anything you may just as well do as Chenier says and remove advies altogether.
Taking stuff away from players, stuff players enjoy, due to isolated events is never a good idea. Especially since it doesn't fix the part that could be perceived as wrong in this entire event. If several people would decide to wipe out Bara'Khur or Angband or... whatever 1/2 region realms there is on BT - they could still do it, just not by using advies.
There are several ways to fix advy game from being abused in such a way, but disabling advies from using magic is not one of those ways.
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How many times have I heard that single-region realms should not exist and that people should work together and interact more.
I dunno. You haven't heard it from me.
I don't think it's great to have a realm that can't hold more than a single region for a long period of time, but I'm certainly never going to come down on a realm that has been forced back to their capital and say "they should just up and die without having a chance to come back."
But when they do work together and interact more and the effect is destruction of a single-region realm you punish the entire advy playerbase for it.
Not all "working together" is equal.
In this case, people "worked together" to come up with a novel way to bend things just enough to achieve a spectacularly unpleasant effect that was never intended by the devs.
Taking stuff away from players, stuff players enjoy, due to isolated events is never a good idea.
An event like this won't stay isolated for long. Once people see that it's possible, they're going to want to do it, too, because it's highly effective and extremely difficult to stop.
The other possible reaction to this is for everyone to just start arresting and executing every adventurer they see.
I don't think either of those is something we want to have happen.
Especially since it doesn't fix the part that could be perceived as wrong in this entire event. If several people would decide to wipe out Bara'Khur or Angband or... whatever 1/2 region realms there is on BT - they could still do it, just not by using advies.
The problem isn't that they crippled the realm in itself—it's that it was done in a way that provided no warning, gave no possibility of stopping it, and left all the players involved wounded so they couldn't do anything afterward. Furthermore, it only required, what, about 4 adventurers? and the scrolls they were able to obtain.
If a couple of realms decided to get together and destroy Bara'Khur, I'm sure they could do it. It would require coordinating multiple armies, marching across rogue lands, being very obvious and visible to everyone while they came (though the number of times players insisted that Daimons had "teleported" in recent invasions, just because they forgot to scout regions for a day or two, suggests that might not be quite as obvious as it should be), and when they assaulted the city, the Bara'Khur players would get to participate in battle, probably multiple times, with the benefit of their fortifications, then trash-talk the enemy while they spent the next week or three trying to take it over or loot it rogue.
I hope this makes clear why I see this as being very different from the way nobles can destroy a realm.
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Basically, look to the people who organised this, because they're why you can't have nice things.
I had to hold my tongue to this comment, but I can understand considering the circumstances where there are many disgruntled players over the decision. I better stance could perhaps be...
'a bunch of players have created an event which has highlighted a potential problem with the game mechanics which might be considered a way of future abuse of a known bug. Let's see what we can do to fix it.'
I know it can sometimes be tough to keep everyone happy, but that comment seemed to be pointed hatred to those involved (although probably not intended that way). The event was meant to be fun for those involved, but I dont really think anyone truly knew the extent of its impact.
Perhaps the real problem is the rate of scroll production or the carrying capacity of a character to hold scrolls? Maybe a nerf/adjustment of the scroll system is a better fix? Just throwing some thoughts out there.
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I would like to state that prior to the event Daishi declared the new state religion of Bara’Khur as evil.
Also there were quite some first messages going around that the Mordok cult would bring war upon Bara’Khur.
Now the essence of a covered operation or a sneak attack is that you have the surprise moment on your side.
How many times have wars been declared shortly before then changes or other similar situations to catch someone off guard...many times that has been the case in this game.
I do not see this operation as an exception from that point of view.
Someone angered someone else and should have been more prepared.
You don’t go all out and say we sacrifice you all to Mordok and think that he will stay unharmed.
Funnily, Angmar had already used large scale scroll stacks against Gotland back then in the war in surprise attacks and nobody complained back then.
Also with commoners.
Why wasn’t something done back then already?
Because nobody complained? Because we played maybe along and solved it ICly?
I remember both sides enjoying greatly this war.
Again, as I said in the other topic, I am fine if it was indeed a bug but then protect also those who thought it was legitimate game mech. Everything should be reversed priori to the bug.
Or nothing should have been done since when other bugs get solved we still have to play around the bugs.
That is at least often the recommendation...â€sorry for the inconvenience, play around it...â€
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Ok, I asked several times and always got the same answer, but I want to have it on a record here and coming from a dev:
If the same thing was done using noble characters instead of adventurer characters - would it be ok?
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Ok, I asked several times and always got the same answer, but I want to have it on a record here and coming from a dev:
If the same thing was done using noble characters instead of adventurer characters - would it be ok?
Yes, for a variety of reasons.
Three of the top reasons are that nobles were always intended to be the ones using scrolls, and nobles either have to bring a unit (and face battle) or risk capture just from moving through the region, and, of course, that they can't pop into a region, read a scroll, and pop right back out with it being literally impossible for anyone in the region to do anything about it.
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Yes
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Priests can do that too.
Just saying.
Another thing I would say is that this wasn't just four adventurers. This was an entire realm that has been preparing for something like this month's. They had nobles and adventurers gathering scrolls, spreading them out, and keeping them from burning off accidently. And then going off and using them exactly the way we have been told we need to. Attacking other players.
And they did they same thing months ago in a previous war.
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Priests would have been fine.
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Priests can do that too.
Priests are a very different story. For one thing, no character starts as a priest.
If we found that several characters had become priests for the express purpose of being able to pop in, use scrolls, and pop out without risk of retaliation, we'd come down on them pretty hard for abuse.
For another, as Bronnen's saying, there's a difference between what a noble should be able to accomplish and what a commoner should be able to accomplish in this world.
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Likely, yes, because a noble can only move during turns, causes combats on the way and is largely visible.
As one of the adventurers involved, we managed to get in, cast multiple scrolls each, and retreat with a full bank of 16 hours. Honestly, it was a lot of fun, needed heaps of planning and coordination, and was backed with some rare RP elements. As far as I know we were all supporting the actions of our realm and a roleplaying guild. The sorts of things that aught to be promoted.
I kinda resent the implication that we were taking advantage of a bug to get away with something sneaky. We blew threw a substantial number of scrolls- way more than were successfully cast - so it's not like this atomic option is available in every campaign.
I feel like you aught to at least bring back spellcasting in the one most magic realm. Not villify people for saying within the abilities of the game.
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If adventurers are not to be removed from the game (which I would strongly like, but never really expected the dev team to agree to), I would like this alternate compromise:
- Make adventurers require a regular character slot
No more freebies. It was clear from this attack that these advies are the alts of players who all work together, mostly from the same realm, and that they use their adventurers (on BT as well as everywhere else) as extensions of their nobles.
Make people choose between advies or nobles for any given continent.
Furthermore, make it so that characters cannot use ANY scrolls without a certain level in spellcasting. Say, 15%. And make advies start with a lower level than nobles. Force people to train at academies before they can start using them. This would help make advy deaths more meaningful, because right now, you anyone can create an advy, within a few days make him travel to his desired realm, and then just benefit from the 16 real time hour pool to blast enemies away.
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If adventurers are not to be removed from the game (which I would strongly like, but never really expected the dev team to agree to), I would like this alternate compromise:
- Make adventurers require a regular character slot
No more freebies. It was clear from this attack that these advies are the alts of players who all work together, mostly from the same realm, and that they use their adventurers (on BT as well as everywhere else) as extensions of their nobles.to
Make people choose between advies or nobles for any given continent.
Furthermore, make it so that characters cannot use ANY scrolls without a certain level in spellcasting. Say, 15%. And make advies start with a lower level than nobles. Force people to train at academies before they can start using them. This would help make advy deaths more meaningful, because right now, you anyone can create an advy, within a few days make him travel to his desired realm, and then just benefit from the 16 real time hour pool to blast enemies away.
Beat the drums blow the horns, I agree with Chenier. I think it's a beautiful idea!
It is all around problem fixer.
Advies are not played the way they are supposed to be? When they are not free secondary chars they will be.
Advies game is not meaningful? With less of them it will be.
Magic is too commonplace? Less advies = less magic.
Yes I know the major argument against it - less density. But I don't think it is accurate. I propose this - let's introduce it on test islands and see if it affects density.
If it works then this relatively simple fix will fix more problems than I can count. It'll save dev time and improve the player experience and prevent most of abuses at the same time.
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I do have some concerns about the impacts of some players opting out from nobles in order to play their advies, and I'd rather everyone just play nobles instead, but I have a hard time seeing another way to prevent people from continuing to use their advies as extensions of their nobles.
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Though I don't have any specific quotes to cite on this, I quite distinctly recall Tom's intention for adventurers being that they could not use scrolls.
Funny that there is at least one type of scroll that is usable by only adventurers.
Fountain of Youth This scroll is said to make old men feel young again. It will give new energy to its target and remove fatigue.
Unless I am mistaken and there is actually a Noble use for this scroll?
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Funny that there is at least one type of scroll that is usable by only adventurers.
Fountain of Youth This scroll is said to make old men feel young again. It will give new energy to its target and remove fatigue.
Unless I am mistaken and there is actually a Noble use for this scroll?
It can be read by a noble targeting an adventurer.
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No, adventurers using scrolls is not a bug and never has been.
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It can be read by a noble targeting an adventurer.
It has been quite a while since I have tried to cast it, has it changed in recent times?
I don't recall that it offered an option to cast it on someone else the last time I tried.
On a separate note, WHY would any noble take the time to cast a scroll on "a lowly commoner"?
Seems to go against the general feeling of how commoners should be treated.
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It can be read by a noble targeting an adventurer.
Roleplay event...
"My oh my. A sad little common person in my region.
He looks so tired, maybe I should waste a few of my hours to help the poor thing.
**casts - Fountain of Youth**
There you go you poor little bugger, please continue the good things that I suspect you have been doing in my region."
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It has been quite a while since I have tried to cast it, has it changed in recent times?
I don't recall that it offered an option to cast it on someone else the last time I tried.
On a separate note, WHY would any noble take the time to cast a scroll on "a lowly commoner"?
Seems to go against the general feeling of how commoners should be treated.
Think of how commoners should be treated, and then try to reconcile that with nobles giving a handful of them dozens of scrolls to go blast another realm from existence.
How commoners should be treated and played has little to do with how they actually are.
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this is the first time anyone has made any organized effort to use adventurers in war
organized effort
And this is where the true problem lies in my opinion.
Was this accomplished OOC?
That is cheating and the involved parties (and only them) should be punished IMO.
More likely this attack was accomplished by a group of guild members working together, which is currently allowed and acceptable IG.
Maybe a more effective way to deal with this would be to prevent guilds from including commoners.
Why would any noble want to be in a guild that included commoners, other than to control those commoners?
To my knowledge, guilds are the only effective IG method of organizing many commoners to a common goal.
A single Lord may be able to rally a few commoners to their cause, but there is always a chance that they will contact "the wrong commoner" and have their plans disclosed to "the wrong people".
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This effort aimed at a nation that had welcomed a Daimon worshiping religion into their city, and whose emperor joined the religion in question, was organized by members of a guild that is an offshoot of the Daishi religion which is aimed entirely at fighting Daimons.
My characters joined that guild, primarily to keep an eye on them and to coordinate with them at times of need, but my characters are not part of the central most trusted part of the guild.
So my characters were not part of the planning or organizing. Which means I rather failed at my goal of keeping track of what they were doing. ;)
They also did the same thing some months ago while at war with ANOTHER nation who followed a different religion. Though admittedly that religion did not specifically worship Daimons. Though the leader of that realm had promised to destroy one of the realms of Daishi. So...you know...there was, once again, perfectly justifiable IC reasons to go on the warpath that time as well.
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Sorry, I am/was not sure how to specify who and when the quote is from. (just noticed my quotes were different from most).
Oh, just got it. ;D
Think of how commoners should be treated, and then try to reconcile that with nobles giving a handful of them dozens of scrolls to go blast another realm from existence.
How commoners should be treated and played has little to do with how they actually are.
Well, for starters, commoners do not need nobles to give them scrolls. It is commoners that bring most scrolls into the game.
I admit that I have often treated commoners with a little respect, but then, I have never beaten my horse either.
Commoners are where most UI's and scrolls come from, commoners are the only ones that can have IU's repaired, etc.
Like my horse, they have their uses.
It is my opinion that a horse should be treated well so long as he is performing his desired function. When his usefulness to me ends, it is time to "retire" him and get a new one.
Is it the fault of the horse when I gather 100 together and train them for war against an enemy that is not prepared to deal with a cavalry charge?
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Sorry, I am/was not sure how to specify who and when the quote is from. (just noticed my quotes were different from most).
Oh, just got it. ;D
Well, for starters, commoners do not need nobles to give them scrolls. It is commoners that bring most scrolls into the game.
I admit that I have often treated commoners with a little respect, but then, I have never beaten my horse either.
Commoners are where most UI's and scrolls come from, commoners are the only ones that can have IU's repaired, etc.
Like my horse, they have their uses.
It is my opinion that a horse should be treated well so long as he is performing his desired function. When his usefulness to me ends, it is time to "retire" him and get a new one.
Is it the fault of the horse when I gather 100 together and train them for war against an enemy that is not prepared to deal with a cavalry charge?
One of the players involved said he was given scrolls by a noble.
The comparison with horses is absurd. Advies were always meant to be a roleplay side-game, not tools of war.
There's also absolutely no possible defense against what was pulled off. None whatsoever. BM was never about sending ICBMs to foreign nations to just watch them die from afar.
If you really want to compare with horses, think of that: would you leave a horse alone in a room with an unprotected button to launch nukes? But they had no reason to worry about it, the advies are all their alts anyways, so it's just giving themselves the launch codes. Players don't typically backstab themselves.
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Slowest ICBMs ever~ 8)
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None of my adventurers have any connection, political or other to my nobles. I've played them largely where they spawned, and more or less loyal to his nation. They may travel within their allied lands, but I have at least one island where the noble and adventurer realms are at war. There's no suggestion or evidence they are working with each other, but I've seen that held against players before (with the adventurer paying the cost).
So you don't want them allied, or opposing your nobles, what's your alternative? Make the characters exclusive (advy or noble?) or get rid of them entirely? I'm not kidding when I say, at times, the adventurer character is the more fun to play.
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None of my adventurers have any connection, political or other to my nobles. I've played them largely where they spawned, and more or less loyal to his nation. They may travel within their allied lands, but I have at least one island where the noble and adventurer realms are at war. There's no suggestion or evidence they are working with each other, but I've seen that held against players before (with the adventurer paying the cost).
So you don't want them allied, or opposing your nobles, what's your alternative? Make the characters exclusive (advy or noble?) or get rid of them entirely? I'm not kidding when I say, at times, the adventurer character is the more fun to play.
I think I've made this very clear. The title of this feature request is "remove adventurers from the game". A fall-back compromise offered just a few posts earlier was exactly the other option, "make adventurer slots no longer free and force players to pick one or the other for each continent".
All in all, adventurers were never meant to be used as tools of warfare. This has always been Tom and the devs' line. And every single time that people thought of ways to get an advantage from them, they were nerfed as a consequence. They can't share scout reports anymore, they can't sell items to their own players anymore, they can't sell the same item back and forth rapidly anymore, and now they can't cast magic anymore. It's all coherent moves to correct them being used differently than they were intended. All I want is for that initial wish to be respected. I don't want to ever have to care about anyone's adventurer. I don't want them to ever have any power over any of my noble characters.
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One of the players involved said he was given scrolls by a noble.
I was not involved, so can not say what actually happened.
But as I stated, advies do not need to be given scrolls as they are the ones that have scrolls made for them.
The comparison with horses is absurd. Advies were always meant to be a roleplay side-game, not tools of war.
Maybe they were not intended to be tools of war, but they are certainly intended to provide tools for war.
Someone earlier stated that the exact same event could have been accomplished by some priests.
I wonder, would you be calling for the removal of Priests and religion if that were the case?
There's also absolutely no possible defense against what was pulled off. None whatsoever. BM was never about sending ICBMs to foreign nations to just watch them die from afar.
A narrow minded view. No defense?
Maybe you should have had a spy in their ranks to provide you advance warning.
Your realm could have made a point of capturing and executing any advy that came near.
Your nobles could go hunt advies at any time with no penalties.
I know that hindsight is 20/20, but defense is not so impossible as you would have us believe.
If you really want to compare with horses, think of that: would you leave a horse alone in a room with an unprotected button to launch nukes?
Now it is you who sounds absurd, everyone knows that a horse can not turn a key.
But they had no reason to worry about it, the advies are all their alts anyways, so it's just giving themselves the launch codes. Players don't typically backstab themselves.
I can not speak for others, but MY advies actually mean something to me. They are not as disposable as you seem to think.
I have started nobles that have gotten lucky, and by starting in the right place at the right time they have progressed very quickly to positions of power.
The same can not be said for ANY of my advies. They must work long and hard, against the odds, to eke out even the smallest bit of advancement.
Every realm on every continent has had to deal with advies casting spells. Truly a nuisance to all.
It just so happens that someone finally thought to co-ordinate their efforts in one city at the same time.
I wonder, if your realm had held 4 cities when this had happened, would it have been such a big deal?
A few people decided to "kick your realm while it was down", so you cry foul and EVERY player with an advy on EVERY continent now suffers.
But I guess that it is OK because they are only ALTS.
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Yes. If the realm had 4 cities or even ten, I would have hated it either way.
If priests did it I would not have.
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The two realms in question were not at war, it would have been easier to move a couple of nobles in with high spellcasting, hit the Ruler with a wounding scroll first to keep him from declaring war, and done the exact same thing without any risk at all to our characters. Using Advies or Priests would actually be the suboptimal way of going about this, as you only need a single active noble with a few hours to arrest them, not so with nobles, and since the realms were not at war, the nobles could go in without units without fear of arrest. Might have taken slightly longer, but I doubt it, and as long as the ruler is kept locked down it wouldn't matter. Trying to paint this as a flaw of the Adventurer class is short-sighted.
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I'd have preferred priests, yes. But the devs also stated that if they saw priests start being used in this way, they would likely intervene to stop it.
All this is getting repetitive so I won't bother much anymore, but a last point...
A narrow minded view. No defense?
Maybe you should have had a spy in their ranks to provide you advance warning.
Your realm could have made a point of capturing and executing any advy that came near.
Your nobles could go hunt advies at any time with no penalties.
I know that hindsight is 20/20, but defense is not so impossible as you would have us believe.
The attack came without warning. You can't even see adventurers in regions you aren't even in yourself, because of how unimportant they are supposed to be. When the attack took place, I immediately looked at who was in Wudenkin to see who was responsible, only to learn to my great dismay that the only people I could see there were my own wounded realm-mates.
Spying is a !@#$ solution and you make me angry just for proposing it. Spying has been EXTREMELY detrimental to this game. Spying is a large reason why we can't have two characters per continent anymore. Spies create distrust, which creates secrecy, which create boredom. I have no issues with characters going turncoat if given proper justification, but to set out to implant spies on others is !@#$ty sportsmanship and, imo, a breach of the social contract.
There was also no forewarning about this. The main realm behind this is themed after an evil faction in Lord of the Rings. No declarations were made, neither before nor after. How would we even know what to look for?
Caputing all advies? Do you have any idea how impractical that is? And how worthless that is? There are huge hordes all around us. We can't police beyond our borders. And since they don't show up on scout reports, we can't even see them coming. Besides, it'd be of no help. Because advies don't act on TC. If at least it was that, it'd be a click-race after turn-change where all get an equal chance. But it isn't, the advies pop into the city only when its player is online. And he can immediately start blasting everyone away. You get a few seconds at most to figure out what is happening and react.
Do you even play on BT to make such ridiculous suggestions? Because it ain't just BK. My priest has been in a few realms now, and even those with more than 1 region are plagued by huge rogue hordes, both around and within their borders. I'd LOVE to go hunt down all advies of BT and execute them all. But that's just not feasible.
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The two realms in question were not at war, it would have been easier to move a couple of nobles in with high spellcasting, hit the Ruler with a wounding scroll first to keep him from declaring war, and done the exact same thing without any risk at all to our characters. Using Advies or Priests would actually be the suboptimal way of going about this, as you only need a single active noble with a few hours to arrest them, not so with nobles, and since the realms were not at war, the nobles could go in without units without fear of arrest. Might have taken slightly longer, but I doubt it, and as long as the ruler is kept locked down it wouldn't matter. Trying to paint this as a flaw of the Adventurer class is short-sighted.
Nobles without units would run the risk of being robbed by rogues, captured by rogues, or injured by rogues.
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Nobles without units would run the risk of being robbed by rogues, captured by rogues, or injured by rogues.
And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.
Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.
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And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.
Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.
No... Advies never get arrested or beaten by rogues, wtf. The rogues protect the advies, the rogues are a large part of why advies are unstoppable.
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And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.
Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.
Not to mention it doesn't matter, the nobles could lead units into the region and drop them as soon as they entered the region before the attack.
Also, a few facts, since the claim "the advies are all their alts" Angmar, the realm in question has 19 nobles and 8 Advies at the time of this post. Out of of those 8, 4 are played by players with nobles also in the realm.
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Can still get captured and stuff by rogues without units.
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Can still get captured and stuff by rogues without units.
If their capital city was so tore up that rogues were a threat, Advies would be the least of their concern. ;)
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Can still get captured and stuff by rogues without units.
Nobles can. Adventurers cannot. Just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing.
If their capital city was so tore up that rogues were a threat, Advies would be the least of their concern. ;)
The capital was only tore up because of adventurers. The rogues did not pose a significant threat to it before.
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The attack came without warning. You can't even see adventurers in regions you aren't even in yourself, because of how unimportant they are supposed to be. When the attack took place, I immediately looked at who was in Wudenkin to see who was responsible, only to learn to my great dismay that the only people I could see there were my own wounded realm-mates.
Well, if you were unwounded and able to see all this, I am surprised that you made no effort to arrest or beat the offending advies.
Sure would have made you a hero in your realm.
Spying is a !@#$ solution and you make me angry just for proposing it. Spying has been EXTREMELY detrimental to this game. Spying is a large reason why we can't have two characters per continent anymore. Spies create distrust, which creates secrecy, which create boredom. I have no issues with characters going turncoat if given proper justification, but to set out to implant spies on others is !@#$ty sportsmanship and, imo, a breach of the social contract.
Come on... REALLY??? You have been around long enough to know that this is a regular practice in BM.
Both of the largest religions on BT have spies in each others halls.
There have been, and likely still are, spies in both the north and south alliances on the EC.
I have never been active enough in the Colonies to verify this, but I am quite sure it happens there as well.
INFORMATION is key to surviving.
Even without actual spies, keeping yourself informed of what is happening around you is only common sense.
This is a game of war and spying is part of war. I have re-read the social contract and don't see how spying is a breach.
You and I may not like it, but it is acceptable.
If this is not the case, please let me know so that I can report those players that I know have deliberately implanted themselves as spies.
There was also no forewarning about this. The main realm behind this is themed after an evil faction in Lord of the Rings. No declarations were made, neither before nor after. How would we even know what to look for?
No forewarning?
I was not involved in this in any way and I do not employ any spies.
Though I did not know the details of the operation, I did know that something big was going down almost three (3) weeks before this incident happened. Looking back through my information now, it starts to become clear where that "something big" was headed.
INFORMATION.
Caputing all advies? Do you have any idea how impractical that is? And how worthless that is? There are huge hordes all around us. We can't police beyond our borders. And since they don't show up on scout reports, we can't even see them coming. Besides, it'd be of no help. Because advies don't act on TC. If at least it was that, it'd be a click-race after turn-change where all get an equal chance. But it isn't, the advies pop into the city only when its player is online. And he can immediately start blasting everyone away. You get a few seconds at most to figure out what is happening and react.
At least one realm on BT closed their borders to advies (warning sent to all realm leaders to be shared with their advies). I am not sure how effective it was, but I do know that MY advy stayed clear of that realm to avoid any trouble.
The fact that your realm only had one region has left you in an unique (poor/disadvantaged) position.
Again, someone decided to "kick your realm while it was down".
Do you even play on BT to make such ridiculous suggestions? Because it ain't just BK. My priest has been in a few realms now, and even those with more than 1 region are plagued by huge rogue hordes, both around and within their borders. I'd LOVE to go hunt down all advies of BT and execute them all. But that's just not feasible.
Yes, I do (and have for almost 10 years) play on BT. Before the most recent rogue problem, mine was one of the smallest realms on the continent. We can now boast that only two realms have more regions and only one has a higher population. Not bad with only 10 nobles. We have come a long way. We could have complained and given up, but we decided to make lenonaide with the lemons we were handed.
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You are starting to sound rude.
If you are going to respond to posts please take the time to read them first.
No... Advies never get arrested or beaten by rogues, wtf. The rogues protect the advies, the rogues are a large part of why advies are unstoppable.
And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.
Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.
Any noble in any region, be it rogue, allied, neutral or enemy regions, has the right to arrest or beat any advy they see.
A noble in an invading army can even arrest or beat an advy in the advies home realm.
Regardless of who owns the region, a noble has the right to arrest or beat any advy they find.
I hope this is a little more clear for you.
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And I will reiterate.
The Emperor of Wudenkin joined a religion that specifically calls for the sacrifice of humans to the Daimons. The idea that such a declaration of war against all of humanity would not be answered is ridiculous.
If you wish to lie down with Daimons, the single religion with the longest history of fighting Daimons will take notice. Especially when there's a certain, rather aggressive, magically-endowed, guild that happens to have been formed by rather active members of the church to deal with perceived threats to the church and humanity. They appear to have been on to your game long before I was. Months I think you said this religion was welcome in Wudenkin.
They decided it was time to act and brought out the hammers of gods in one of the better IC acts of total war that I've seen in a while.
Of course they told the Elders of Daishi about your temples first. And then my character sent one of her agents to see if the reports were true. They were, as she reported to the church. And then Yao Ling made her declaration throughout the halls of Daishi that the religion of Mordoc was evil for worshiping a Daimon and that their temples and influence should be removed from these lands.
The attack came after that as I remember things.
Wudenkin made itself a serious threat when it seemingly welcomed a Daimon-worshiping religion into its fold.
You can shout until you're blue in the face that this happened without any declaration or warning, or via OOC gaming the system, but it does not change the truth of the matter.
Human realms who lie down with Daimons do not get good treatment from other human realms.
Period.
End of Line.
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So we all don’t forget to think ahead...
I want to remark that the two advies that were killed due to the GM intervening are still dead and I would expect a statement on this from the GM and what they will do so the affected players and how in general the players will be granted the safety to know that they can continue playing this game without their chars being suddenly killed due to a non-previously announced one-sided GM intervention.
My suggestion is to simply revive the two advies.
And to Chenier/Bronnen...if Angmar would have wished we could have sent also our nobles with our teleportation scrolls there and would have done exactly the same to you. We didn’t as we have to fight a threat called rogues in BT. But we could have done it without you noticing anything.
In fact yesterday one Angmar noble did this in order to look for the corpse of Khamul and use a Scroll of Healing but he did not find him. But he could have also blasted again 1-2 of you with Accident scrolls away if we wanted this. You would have again noticed things before they were too late. The Witch-king decided otherwise and you have IC no idea that we were there or should have received at least a magical message.
And before you start again with your sudden IC whataboutism that “why should a noble do this to heal an advyâ€, let me say that to nobles a dead advy who theoretically still should have a dozen Daimon banishment scrolls on him is very precious. To me as player who played him for a long time he is precious as char, and definitely no alt. You insinuating all the time otherwise and this is honestly just poor gaming and I suggest you drop it, you just harm your own reputation here.
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The attack came after that as I remember things.
That is correct, the attack came after the war declaration of Daishi, this was actually the green light for the Morgul Order to start action.
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So we all don’t forget to think ahead...
I want to remark that the two advies that were killed due to the GM intervening are still dead and I would expect a statement on this from the GM and what they will do so the affected players and how in general the players will be granted the safety to know that they can continue playing this game without their chars being suddenly killed due to a non-previously announced one-sided GM intervention.
My suggestion is to simply revive the two advies.
And to Chenier/Bronnen...if Angmar would have wished we could have sent also our nobles with our teleportation scrolls there and would have done exactly the same to you. We didn’t as we have to fight a threat called rogues in BT. But we could have done it without you noticing anything.
In fact yesterday one Angmar noble did this in order to look for the corpse of Khamul and use a Scroll of Healing but he did not find him. But he could have also blasted again 1-2 of you with Accident scrolls away if we wanted this. You would have again noticed things before they were too late. The Witch-king decided otherwise and you have IC no idea that we were there or should have received at least a magical message.
And before you start again with your sudden IC whataboutism that “why should a noble do this to heal an advyâ€, let me say that to nobles a dead advy who theoretically still should have a dozen Daimon banishment scrolls on him is very precious. To me as player who played him for a long time he is precious as char, and definitely no alt. You insinuating all the time otherwise and this is honestly just poor gaming and I suggest you drop it, you just harm your own reputation here.
You could have used teleportation scroll, but you didn't. Because you said it yourself, the trip back would be too perilous, and it'd leave your realm exposed. It'd have an actual cost.
I don't know how things are in all of your cushy coastal realms, because it doesn't sound like we are playing on the same continent at all. There are always hordes of rogues in all regions surrounding Wudenkin. Every now and then we'd get an opportunity to expand, it'd rarely take long before we'd get smashed by a horde. And it's not density mechanics, because we are the densest realm of the continent. There is zero way to patrol any region beyond our capital at the current time. Even if we had more regions under our control, it would change nothing.
But you obviously know this already, because you said it yourself, you didn't have the army to spare. I couldn't care less if you set out with all of the realms of the continent to invade Wudenkin. Because you would get annihilated by the rogues long before reaching us. I know it. You know it. And I know you know it.
So stop pretending that nobles could have pulled off the same thing, because if nobles had anywhere near as much potential, you wouldn't have given all of your scrolls to advies.
As far as the dead advy with his scrolls, I agree the scrolls shouldn't disappear. Devs, I think you should make it so that when you execute a character, the judge immediately gets all their items and scrolls.
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Why do people even think that Mordok worships daimons when the entire point of the religion is to stop the invasions. People don't like to read.
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@Chenier
Since you seem to know what I know the discussion is pointless and we can leave it here.
(Seriously that is now getting ridiculous when you start to argue this way.)
@Bronnen
Now you know how the Witch-king felt when nobody believed him that he is on the human side. What goes around comes around, what a boomerang for Josiah actually, just realised that now after your message here. But that’s karma I guess.
I am just coming here as I am waiting if and what the GMs will do regarding the unilateral intervention and the consequences that some players had to face due to this, since it is now been clearly said that it is no bug but chars still got trapped and thus some of us lost their precious chars.
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Issue is, Witch-King sided with the demons during a war so...
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Issue is, Witch-King sided with the demons during a war so...
“Why do people think that the Witch-king sided...â€hahaha
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I don't know how things are in all of your cushy coastal realms, because it doesn't sound like we are playing on the same continent at all.
Cushy coastal realms? I think not.
Maybe it is not where we are playing, so much as HOW we are playing.
Instead of alienating the entire continent, we have chosen to work with our neighbors to help each other regain territory.
I don't see how you think that worshiping something that creates Daimons is going to win you allies on this continent.
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No, coastal realms on BT are 100% guaranteed to be getting less badly hit by monsters than central realms right now, due to aspects of the way they decide where to rampage.
(Basically, a monster at point A who wants to go to point B may be just as likely to pick a coastal region as an inland region as their point B, but the regions between A and B are vastly more likely to be inland than coastal, and they get hit even if the monsters aren't hanging around there.)
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No, coastal realms on BT are 100% guaranteed to be getting less badly hit by monsters than central realms right now, due to aspects of the way they decide where to rampage.
(Basically, a monster at point A who wants to go to point B may be just as likely to pick a coastal region as an inland region as their point B, but the regions between A and B are vastly more likely to be inland than coastal, and they get hit even if the monsters aren't hanging around there.)
Ok, maybe not.
This being the case, maybe it is time to abandon Bara'khur and move to a coastal realm.
Problem is, most of your existing nobles would not be received well, so you may want to just dump the existing ones and start some new ones.
Like advies, they are only characters that are quickly replaceable with a few just minutes of time, right?
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Reeds gets hammered every day or so with major monster and undead assaults, and we see at least as many monsters and undead going around the city on a daily basis. The mountains between us and Wudenkin are a destroyer highway, while Reeds is a roadblock for any that try the "easy" way west.
Creasur was always getting hammered too, until it finally went rogue due to the constant assaults, and a previous banker's decision to purposefully starve the region into not liking us much.
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As Anaris said. Wudenkin is in the middle of the map. So anything that wants to get from anywhere to anywhere is basically garanteed to pass around it.
I know you probably felt pretty good about yourselves, everybody always thinks their success is 100% self-earned, but fact is, you aren't exceptional. There was 1 realm that was more central than Bara'Khur. Who was that?
Fronen.
Oh right, it's dead now. Killed by the rogues.
Diplomacy has nothing to do with how central realms are faring. BK being allies with the whole continent or at war with the whole continent amounts to the same. You said it yourself, Angmar can't send an army at BK, or else its own regions will get overrun. That also means that your claim that you could have done the same thing with priests is completely unfounded, because, again, you need those nobles to defend your regions.
Before a bunch of us went "why not, let's do this Mordok thing", we did try to reach out for military cooperation. But we couldn't send our army more than 2 regions away from our capital, and neither could our neighbors.
That Angmar *could* connect with its neighbors and collaborate with them is proof in itself of being a cushy coastal realm.
Note to the devs: I'm not really asking for anything to be changed regarding coastal/central realms and rogue behaviors, just pointing out the blatant survivor bias going on here. They are clearly believing that their results are 100% self-earned, and that any difference in results between them and other realms are 100% on the other realm's players' fault. When really it's just bias from their privilege.
Ok, maybe not.
This being the case, maybe it is time to abandon Bara'khur and move to a coastal realm.
Problem is, most of your existing nobles would not be received well, so you may want to just dump the existing ones and start some new ones.
Like advies, they are only characters that are quickly replaceable with a few just minutes of time, right?
Yea, I don't think "literally hollow out Beluaterra by carving out all of its central realms" is really a good long-term solution, you know?
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I might remind BK that they are cushy coast realm too....Fronen was as well before it died.
So just being on the coast is not a gauranture of your survival in this invasion.
The true thing that makes matters difficult for Reeds, Wudenkin, and Dyomoque right now is the way Lake Salaman and the rivers flowing from the mountains turn them into a natural funnel for all rogues going from east to west.
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Not the same kind of coast.
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Ah yes, the nice "cushy" "natural funnel for all the rogues going from east to west"...