BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Medron Pryde on October 11, 2018, 08:22:55 AM
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I was scrolling down on my family page today and saw an old message from the developers
"Adventurers No Longer Using Scrolls
Adventurers have been blocked from using scrolls for the foreseeable future due to players abusively using adventurers as weapons of war scroll-bombs. They may be restored in the future when significant changes are made to their operation, but that is not a priority in light of the recently posted development roadmap."
I think this an unnecessarily prejudicial statement for the developers to be using against the players. Now you obviously decided to change the rules. That is fine. It is your job to add options or take options away if you feel they improve or hurt gameplay. That is what you all volunteered for.
But what we have here is a case of one group of players doing exactly what has been done for years. They used adventurers to cast scrolls. It's been done against the daimons, the monsters, the undead, and other player realms in the past.
The only difference is that this time the group of players targeted by the adventurer-cast scrolls complained to the devs, and the devs stepped in to undue the damage so the targeted players could arrest and kill the adventurers used in the attack.
And then the devs blamed the players playing the adventurers for this and charged them with abusing the rules. I think that is a bridge too far and is unnecessarily antagonistic towards the player base. I think such statements have no place in the official announcements of the game and would request that the announcement on the matter be moderated to remove any charges of abuse for what was a simple case of doing what was allowed and done in the past under many similar circumstances.
The devs already punished the players by allowing their characters to be executed. I think then accusing the players of abusing the rules is simply a matter of adding insult to injury and should be avoided.
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Admins*, not devs.
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Thank you for the correction.
I sometimes get confused on which exact term is right because we use them all here. ;)
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Not a problem, it's semantics.
I'm sure those who took the decision will be able to explain you better than I would be.
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There is a qualitative difference between adventurers occasionally using scrolls for things, and loading up a bunch of adventurers with dozens of scrolls and sending them to literally destroy a struggling realm with no possibility of response or counterplay.
There are many things within the game, as in real life, that, done in a moderate manner, are fine, but when taken to an extreme, would be considered abusive. This is not a contradiction or hypocrisy.
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Though I was not involved in the incident in any way, I too feel that it was dealt with poorly.
If the incident was something that should not have been possible, the entire incident should have been reversed.
By reversing only certain parts (reviving Bara'Khur) and allowing some players to be punished (characters executed), the powers that be give the impression that there was actual INTENT to abuse the game mechanics.
Maybe there was actual intent to abuse the game, but I can't say for sure that there was or was not.
Players are encouraged to work together in the game. (from the sign in page - "BattleMaster is a team-oriented...")
There are several guilds (some of these have been around for a very long time) that encourage advies to work together with nobles and each other.
Most scrolls come from advy characters. Advies have been able to cast scrolls for a long time. I believe that every realm has had to deal with advies casting scrolls in their realm to stir up trouble.
So, a group of players got together in their guild, consisting of nobles and advies, and decided, for IC reasons, to formulate a co-ordinated attack on a single realm. Was this fair?
No. But then, war is hardly ever fair.
There is no realm on BT that is NOT struggling to survive at this time.
Many realms can not even raise the CS needed to deal with even one of the larger rogue units, let alone multiple units of rogues.
Would it have been acceptable if the attacks were spread out over several days to allow for response or counterplay (with likely the same results)?
Would it have been acceptable if Priests or infiltrators were used for the attack instead of advies?
Would it have been acceptable if every other realm on the continent decided to gather together to make a co-ordinated attack with the intent of literally destroying a struggling realm? What possible response or counterplay could the struggling possibly offer to this?
The advy attack on Bara'Khur was certainly not fair, but was it an intentional abuse of the game mechanics?
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It's a pvp game. Realms get destroyed. If they bring an explicitely evil religion and intentionally piss off the entire continent - they are kind of asking for it. And not a metaphore of "asking for it", but literally I can't see any other reason for such action other than inviting some extreme pvp.
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I'll note again...those tactics have been used for years.
Were they always popular? No. The East Continent recently went through a long situation of a single adventurer using a portal to ask that all the defending walls of a nation be removed and their best recruiting centers be destroyed. The request was granted in minutes. Possibly hours, but I remember it as minutes. That did start up a general disagreement in the player base about the magic game on EC being...ahem...too game changing. And an answering portal was called up specifically to lower magic in the EC. That portal was just closed today with an event that seemingly removed magic from the island and attacked adventurers carrying portal stones and seemingly erasing them from the island. The stones. Not the adventurers. I think that is good for the game, and agree that EC should be a low to no magic area. It is ironic that it is the only island with elves, but....such ironies can build more fun. hehehe.
Throughout all of this, BT was noted as the island where high magic SHOULD be allowed, considering its experiences with invasions and the like. I remember when adventurers were first introduced, and from that time until now I have seen adventurers use scrolls against monsters, undead, daimons, and other players. This has never once been questioned by anyone as an abuse of the rules. It was the way the game played.
I can't even count the number of times I've seen adventurers use scrolls to wipe out monsters, undead, or daimons as noble-led units charged in to fight the survivors of their attack. And in wars between player realms, they've often moved in just before the fight to use scrolls in support of their nation, religion, or guild.
Now what we had here was one city seceding from an allied realm and then adopting a religion following the Daimons, the single biggest baddest bad guys ever seen on Beluaterra. Every single Daimon-worshiping religion has been wiped out. I say this as the player of the noble who is the head of the primary anti-Daimon religion. And she has seen every single Daimon invasion. She's old. She's REALLY old. She's one of the older characters in the game. And she's seen multiple Daimon-worshiping religions rise up and she's seen every single one of them torn down again.
So she got information from members of a guild offshoot of the religion saying these people were daimon worshipers. She traveled over to one of their temples, read their mission statement, and the basic tenants of their religion, and agreed that qualified as daimon worship. So she declared them evil and went back home to continue tending to her city.
At which time the guild offshoot in question mounted probably the most successful scroll attack I've ever seen. Number one. They played me. I love it that they did. They knew a hot button issue for my character and they PRESSED it. Then they waited for me to respond, which I did pretty quick. Not because I knew they had plans. Oh no. I had no clue. I just happened to have full hours and the ability to travel their pretty much immediately. Remember. Priest. They can be quick on their feet. Hehehe. And then the guild offshoot did what I've seen before. They sent out adventurers with scrolls to smash and rend. As I said, I think it's the most successful such attack I've seen. Not the only by any means. In previous cases it's usually been across a broader front over multiple regions as nations were fighting on the fields or defending or maintaining takeovers.
In this case it was a focused attack on a secessionist nation reduced to a single city following a Pro-Daimon religion. From what I hear, it was rather devastating. Of course, considering every nation on BT had declared war on them before the invasion started due to their secession in the first place meant they probably would have been promptly dealt with long ago. If the new invasion hadn't started up that is. *shrugs*
So...this was a totally in character conflict, initiated by the actions of the target nation in question. And the attack was conducted via tactics that have been in use for years across multiple continents. Was it the best example I think I've seen of those tactics? Yes. I think it was. But that was merely because players have spent years practicing them and have gotten better with them over time.
There was no abuse of the rules, and charging players with being abusive is simply wrong.
Once again, if you want to change the rules to make that not happen again, that is your prerogative. But please do not accuse the players of abusing the rules when they were simply acting in good faith and using the tools you gave them to play with.
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Might just be me, but my noble opinion is that such "adventures" should be hunted down and destroyed. What right thinking noble wants a peasant to wield such power?
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And as a noble, you would have the right to make that decision and enact it on your own.
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And as a noble, you would have the right to make that decision and enact it on your own.
No really? Who would have guessed.
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I have always been a staunch supporter of the Devs and Admins. They work hard and give up a lot of their personal free time.
This BT business though... it doesn't sit very well with me. For two reasons.
1) In my experience, there has always been a hard line in the sand for reversing events. Even for bugs. You lost your gold due to a bug? Ok, bug is fixed, but you don't get your gold back. Everything has always carried on forward.
2) To my knowledge of the event, it seems to lack any "abusive" element. Abuse of the game, to me, is when you click on your Family page link, and 1000 gold appears in your family wealth, so you click it 47 times until you are maxed out, invest in all the regions of all your characters, and then click it 47 more times.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but a group of nobles got together, gave a bunch of scrolls to a bunch of Adventurers, told them to unleash hell on Bara'Khur, and then watched the fireworks? I fail to see where the "abuse" was.
Did we discover something that is terribly over powered? Of course, and we should take steps to ratify that. However, the players involved did nothing wrong.
What is the answer here? There isn't one. It is a catch-22. Something has already been reversed. Can't very well reverse it again. That would be silly.
I am just curious as to why there was such heavy handed intervention, when that isn't how things are normally done.
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There is a qualitative difference between adventurers occasionally using scrolls for things, and loading up a bunch of adventurers with dozens of scrolls and sending them to literally destroy a struggling realm with no possibility of response or counterplay.
There are many things within the game, as in real life, that, done in a moderate manner, are fine, but when taken to an extreme, would be considered abusive. This is not a contradiction or hypocrisy.
Angband has just fallen to the constant massive rogue attacks. The above quote could be read:
"There is a quantitative difference between rogues occasionally spawning to add spice to the game, and cranking up the spawning rates to drown out and literally destroy struggling realms with basically no possibility of response or counterplay..."
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From a few days ago:
October 2018 Recent Changes
Major Changes
Make adventurers able to cast spells from scrolls, but at greatly increased difficulty
So, it was temporary, to make the game more balanced.
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Yes, I did see that, and thank the devs for making the change.
I haven't tried using scrolls with my adventurer since this change back so don't know how much different it will feel, but thank you for returning the option, with limitations and modifications.
My primary issue is in the tone of the original announcement in suggesting that some players were being abusive. I find that to be unnecessarily prejudicial and antagonistic to the players on the part of the admins, and believe it should be moderated to reflect a more balanced and neutral tone to reflect the position I believe the admins should take.
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Yes, I did see that, and thank the devs for making the change.
I haven't tried using scrolls with my adventurer since this change back so don't know how much different it will feel, but thank you for returning the option, with limitations and modifications.
My primary issue is in the tone of the original announcement in suggesting that some players were being abusive. I find that to be unnecessarily prejudicial and antagonistic to the players on the part of the admins, and believe it should be moderated to reflect a more balanced and neutral tone to reflect the position I believe the admins should take.
And if they agreed with you, they surely by now would have made amends. They have not so how about letting it go.
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They *were* being abusive.
When planning something big, helps to stop a second and think "has anything on this scale ever been pulled off in BM before?" and, if the answer is "no", think carefully about "why", and if it should stay that way.
So think about that for a moment, "have adventurers ever been able to destroy a realm within a single turn" before? Do you really think adventurers being able to blow a realm off the face of the earth is intended behavior?
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There was no abuse by the players who performed the attack. They and other players had done the same general thing before on BT and other lands. No magical attack like that can truly threaten the survival of a healthy realm, but it can certainly hurt it.
The primary difference here is that the attack in question was used on a very weak realm, pushed back to its capital, and barely hanging on thanks to the monster and undead swarms. The attack felt devastating because it pushed you over the edge into a point where the monsters and undead swarms were going to finish you off.
Look. I understand. You'd been fighting the swarms for months. You'd been pushed to the brink of collapse. The realm you seceded from had already died and you were on the verge of following them, but you were still hanging on. Just barely. Then some adventurers from a religion you'd been attacking for months show up with some scrolls and leave you damaged enough that the next round of monsters are going to come in and wipe you up like an old napkin.
You didn't like that. I understand. It's not always nice to see all your hard work turned to naught because another realm or alliance smashes you. But that's life in BattleMaster. Sometimes you just get pounded. I've lost multiple realms to the monsters, undead, and Daimons. I've lost realms to the admins literally sinking the island I'd played on since I started PLAYING BattleMaster. And I've lost realms to other realms. That is BattleMaster...Sometimes you just don't win the battles.
But instead of rolling with it, you complained to the admins and they reversed the effects of the attack so you could arrest and execute the characters involved. You got your instant pound of flesh and moral victory against the players who had injured your characters and realm. And then the admins blamed those other players and accused them of abusing the rules. Adding insult like that to the very real injuries already inflicted on players is an error and should be corrected.
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There was no abuse by the players who performed the attack. They and other players had done the same general thing before on BT and other lands. No magical attack like that can truly threaten the survival of a healthy realm, but it can certainly hurt it.
The primary difference here is that the attack in question was used on a very weak realm, pushed back to its capital, and barely hanging on thanks to the monster and undead swarms. The attack felt devastating because it pushed you over the edge into a point where the monsters and undead swarms were going to finish you off.
Look. I understand. You'd been fighting the swarms for months. You'd been pushed to the brink of collapse. The realm you seceded from had already died and you were on the verge of following them, but you were still hanging on. Just barely. Then some adventurers from a religion you'd been attacking for months show up with some scrolls and leave you damaged enough that the next round of monsters are going to come in and wipe you up like an old napkin.
You didn't like that. I understand. It's not always nice to see all your hard work turned to naught because another realm or alliance smashes you. But that's life in BattleMaster. Sometimes you just get pounded. I've lost multiple realms to the monsters, undead, and Daimons. I've lost realms to the admins literally sinking the island I'd played on since I started PLAYING BattleMaster. And I've lost realms to other realms. That is BattleMaster...Sometimes you just don't win the battles.
But instead of rolling with it, you complained to the admins and they reversed the effects of the attack so you could arrest and execute the characters involved. You got your instant pound of flesh and moral victory against the players who had injured your characters and realm. And then the admins blamed those other players and accused them of abusing the rules. Adding insult like that to the very real injuries already inflicted on players is an error and should be corrected.
So what if you did it before, to other realms? Was abuse then too, probably.
I don't really care for BK, or BT as a whole. But what you guys did, using advies as some kind of ICBM, was just disgusting.
Advies were never meant to hold that much power over realms. That's why advies were blocked from all spellcasting until another solution could be coded. That's why part of the damage you caused was undone.
Because it was abusive, and went completely against intended behavior. It's sad that you can't see that, but hey, the cheaters of Thulsoma also couldn't see anything wrong with their gimmicks back in the days, because "anyone could do it". Same with many other such blatant cases of abuse. So you obviously aren't alone in your delusion.
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That is quite the line in the sand you are drawing Chenier. I know you are pretty anti-magic in general, and I have to admit I personally liked BM better before the introduction of magic too, but I feel like it is biasing your judgement of player behavior.
I personally don't agree that the players were being abusive. I would honestly hope that we have played this game together enough that you wouldn't call me delusional.
Here is why I don't think abuse was involved:
1. There was reasonable motive. BK's actions and letters were hostile and unreasonable to the characters of the realms. Therefore, these players didn't commit this act with the intent of just causing destruction. There was legitimate IC reasons.
2. The act could have been carried out by nobles just as easily. It wasn't because realms and nobles didn't want to get their hands dirty. A reasonable noble thing to do in my mind.
3. The guide on Advies laid out by Tom is that they are supposed to be lower classed to nobles. Cool, got it. No where does it say that Advies can't lash out and rail against the nobility using ANY means available to them.
4. History is chock full of incidents where commoners railed and won against the nobility. It doesn't make sense that we treat Advies as simple Unique Item and Scroll farmers. They need more purpose in this game, and that has been an ongoing discussion topic for a long time. These players were able to give serious purpose to their Advies.
I will say again, I don't like magic in BM. I was drawn into this game for the role playing of a knight in a feudal medieval society. The politics. The intrigue. Not to shoot fireballs and resurrect people from the dead. However, I was very impressed with this. The amount of conspiracy, IC planning, players working together. Look at the game right now. How much of that do you see these days? We should foster that mentality, not squash it! I am not blind. All of us sat up in our seats when it all went down, saying "Hot damn Jimmy! That might be a little over powered!!" and it absolutely is, and it absolutely had to be changed. But it happened, and it happened by the collection of players working together, from different realms, to achieve a goal.
It dismays me that you would call that abusive and disgusting.
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Thulsoma's scheme also involved a lot of players being really well coordinated, acting together towards a common goal that was perfectly legitimate IC.
It was still 100% abuse.
1. Motive is irrelevant to whether something is abuse or not. Abuse is almost always done with perfectly legitimate IC motive.
2. Were it so easy to pull off with nobles, it'd have been done through nobles. There are a lot of reasons it was done with adventurers, and a lot of them help explain why it was abuse.
3. That's not really what's being done when nobles are handing over realm-destroying capabilities to a bunch of them.
4. I disagree, hunting rogues is all the purpose adventurers should have, just as it was when they were first created. This is essentially a slight passive defensive buff: play nice with advies, get a bit less rogue spawns. Low-scope, and zero offensive capabilities. Adventurers aren't meant to be the stuff of horror, they are supposed to inspire disdain. Because of this, the game actively hides adventurers from us on many pages. Where a noble would be spotted immediately, on most pages the adventurers will simply not be displayed anywhere at all. Combined with the fact that they don't act on turn change, this makes them arguably more powerful than the infiltrators of old, who were actually invisible from scout reports.
In any case, it boils down to a simple question: Are adventurers meant to be able to bring realms to their knees?
The answer is, and always was, clearly a resounding "no". They were meant as a side-game that nobles can and should ignore. That's always what all the official pages, Tom, and the dev team always said.
You talk as if Bara'Khur was on the verge of collapse, a single unit from dying. It wasn't. It had high walls. Lots of militia. And an army. Was it struggling? Sure, being central, all of the continent's rogues pass through BK on their way anywhere else. But BK wasn't dying, Wudenkin was solid. But what those advies did, no human army could have achieved. At that point, with the hordes being what they were, I don't think any human army could have even successfully reached BK. So not only could a noble army not have made the trek, but they'd have exposed their realms to the rogues, causing them to lose a bunch of regions. Adventurers were chosen for reasons, the very same reasons that made it abusive.
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Were it so easy to pull off with nobles, it'd have been done through nobles. There are a lot of reasons it was done with adventurers, and a lot of them help explain why it was abuse.
Arguably it would have been easier to pull it off with Priests instead of Advies. Advies were used so that nobles could claim innocence.
In any case, it boils down to a simple question: Are adventurers meant to be able to bring realms to their knees?
The answer is, and always was, clearly a resounding "no". They were meant as a side-game that nobles can and should ignore. That's always what all the official pages, Tom, and the dev team always said.
I just reread the Wiki on Advies. It doesn't remotely touch on the subject. In fact, what it says supports that the Advies involved were played correctly. Commoners are supposed to cater to the noble class, so if a bunch of nobles order a bunch of Advies to take a bunch of scrolls and set them off in location X, then that is exactly what they should do. You ask, "Are adventurers meant to be able to bring realms to their knees?". Absolutely not. But that isn't what happened here. A group of Advie saboteurs backed enormously by nobles brought a realm to its knees. That is a very different thing. It would take those Advies years to accumulate that many scrolls. They simply could not have done it by themselves, so your answer of "No" hasn't been broken. Advies have not been able to bring a realm to its knees, alone.
You talk as if Bara'Khur was on the verge of collapse, a single unit from dying. It wasn't. It had high walls. Lots of militia. And an army. Was it struggling? Sure, being central, all of the continent's rogues pass through BK on their way anywhere else. But BK wasn't dying, Wudenkin was solid. But what those advies did, no human army could have achieved. At that point, with the hordes being what they were, I don't think any human army could have even successfully reached BK. So not only could a noble army not have made the trek, but they'd have exposed their realms to the rogues, causing them to lose a bunch of regions. Adventurers were chosen for reasons, the very same reasons that made it abusive.
First, I said nothing about BK's state. I think you might be mixing someone else's reply up with mine. Furthermore, again it would have been easier to accomplish with Priests. Advies were chosen for IC reasons, not for game mechanical reasons.
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This attack could have been accomplished with nobles.
Clearly the problem here is not the advies, it is the magic.
The actions of the Devs point towards this as the first action taken was to remove scroll casting ability from advies until it could be "fixed".
The "fix" that was designed makes it harder for "advies" to cast scrolls.
Has this "fix" really addressed the real problem?
I do not think so. It is still possible for a group of people to get together, gather up a bunch of scrolls, and "bomb" a realm.
Lead off with a couple of advies, priests and/or infils for initial damage to "sensitive" areas, then follow up with a group of nobles loaded up with the balance of destructive scrolls. Not one soldier needed to "kick a realm when it is down".
How could a realm that is not in good shape hope to defend against this?
There is no real defense against magic. An advie can be arrested at any time for any reason to prevent their actions.
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All good points Polar.
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I agree with Polar's points as well.
I don't know what the fix is.
Is it removing magic as was done in East Continent?
Or is it in reducing the number of scrolls any one person can carry?
I don't know.
There are numerous issues with magic, and while it can be fun, it can potentially be too powerful as well.
I would like to see a game that relies less on magic and more on force of arms and nobility. But the magic element is certainly interesting and I have used it very much.
Granted, until very recently I've not used it against player realms. Especially on BT where I play a character who believes in supporting all of humanity against the Daimons.
But the "Walls of Wudenkin" post I published a week or three ago heralded a change in her policy there. Considering Wudenkin's fall to Daimon worship, my character now feels free to....ahem..."dispose" of harmful scrolls in their backyard. ;)
And as one of the oldest priests in the game, with real life years practicing the art of using scrolls against the Daimons, she turns out to be rather good at scroll magic. :)
In short though, I don't think it would hurt the game to lose at least some of the magic scrolls. As we've seen both on BT and in other lands, large scale magical events can cause...great angst amongst those who are the....recipients of said events...
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The problem with magic generally seems to be that many scrolls can be cast after each other and all by a single caster(with the highest spellcasting).
If I am not mistaken, casting difficulty for nobles has also been increased, basically every casting was successful with a regular untrained spell casting skill.
Now even if it becomes more difficult, having more scrolls will always beat that.
To solve that we could have cooling down periods or a mana pool that gets depleted and generates more slowly after a scroll is cast.
This could limit a single noble to casting only 3 scrolls at once max and prevent further casting for a certain period right after.
The amount of mana in pool and how quickly it generates could be depended on the casting skill.
unskilled casters could be limited to one scroll at a turn every few turns and only close to 100% spellcasting characters can cast several scrolls in a single turn every 2 or 3 turns.
Unique items could give spellcasting bonus or even direct mana regen or pool bonuses.
Magic energy per region could also influence mana regenration rates, if lots of magic has been used somewhere not long before, it could slow down mana regen in that region or better, the whole area.
This also prevents all magic to be unleashed in a single area not long after each other.
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These are all interesting ideas. They might be difficult to code, but I like the discussion.
For myself, playing a character who has used magic scrolls for real life years, my priest character is up to the point of two in three scroll uses normally working. If I have five scrolls that I'm about to use, I generally assume that two of them are not going to work. That's my experience with a well-trained character.
When I first started using them on my adventurer, the failure rate was significantly higher as I remember.
If characters are using large numbers of scrolls without failures, they are probably not beginners in spellcasting. Of course...the RNG could also just have been really favorable to them that day. ;)
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I think one of the big problems is simply the fact that any Region Lord on BT just gets given scrolls randomly. That is how they accumulate so quickly, and how such a large number were able to be used against a target.
If we got rid of that feature so that only Advies could make scrolls it would cut down drastically on the number of scrolls floating around.
It would also change the type of scroll floating around. Advies generally make boon scrolls because they sell better. No one wants to buy a Summon Undead scroll from an Advie, but people will jump on Magic Weapons or Healing. These scrolls are incredibly beneficial to the individual character, but can't really be used in broad effects.
I think that is the solution.
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No one wants to buy a Summon Undead scroll from an Advie, but people will jump on Magic Weapons or Healing. These scrolls are incredibly beneficial to the individual character, but can't really be used in broad effects.
Sounds logical, having to get scrolls from advies only also increases comunication between characters to get scrolls.
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The devs said: had this kind of thing been done with priests, then something would be done about that too. It'd still have been abuse in the devs' eyes.
That said, I completely disagree that it'd have been just as easy with priests. Because priests take a noble slot, and those realms NEED those noble slots for troop leaders that defend the realm from the hordes. Turn all of those nobles into priests, and the realms would lose a bunch of regions.
Also, priests, unlike adventurers, aren't invisible.
And finally, pretty much everyone in BK has said that they'd have been pretty much fine with it had it been priests or other nobles, anyways. The most objectionable part was always the use of adventurers.
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Wrong. What Delvin said was if a bunch of people switched to priests for this sole purpose, it would be abuse.
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Wrong. What Delvin said was if a bunch of people switched to priests for this sole purpose, it would be abuse.
And that's pretty much would would have been required to amass the same number of priests as they had advies, so your distinction is moot.
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I don't know about that. I was under the understanding that it was five Advies, no? The SOS alone fluctuates between 3 and 5 priests at any given time. It would have been possible to recruit career priests from several realms.
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Also made moot by the repetition, again and again, that pretty much all players of BK said they'd have been fine with it done by priests instead of advies.
Note that the feature request I made following this event wasn't the removal of magic (though I don't like magic much), but the removal of adventurers. I never expected it to be accepted, but the fact it was adventurers were always at the core of why so many of us were so angry with this.
This discussion isn't moving anywhere since it was first had when the events first took place.
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This discussion isn't moving anywhere since it was first had when the events first took place.
I agree with this statement. It is a done issue. I am going to focus my energies on something else.