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BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: dustole on May 03, 2019, 04:49:51 PM
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My noble has been declared a commoner because I am antagonistic towards a popular noble. The rest of the realm is going along with it. No way would the nobility accept such a thing. At what point does game mechanics trump role playing and what recourse do I have?
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The Titans are not here to be the RP police.
That said, if an entire realm is blatantly ignoring game mechanics to that degree...I'm not entirely comfortable with that.
This situation sounds like it needs some more detail for it to be clear whether (and to what degree) the general principle of "game mechanics trump RP" is being violated. Can you expand a little?
If you're not comfortable doing so in open forum, feel free to PM me either here or on Discord.
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Rania declared her commoner to be a noble and heir. The game says she's a commoner and not a noble. The commoner was being treated as a noble in RP's and such. I protested such things as it goes against what it means to be noble. If they were going to declare a commoner to be heir to a Royal and a Duke I started asking pointed questions to gain more details. Now I'm the bad guy... yes I pushed buttons... the gist seems to be that family history isn't accurate and now I've been 'demoted' to being a commoner. No one wants to speak up against it even though the guide to adventurers goes against all they are doing. Rania is quite popular so no one is going to question her. A noble being declared a commoner should cause riots and no one seems to care
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That is not exactly accurate. The character has been demoted to a commoner level in a guild, not in general. In the eyes of the faith he is being treated of lower standing, not in every day noble life
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Plus a couple of other things. The situation has been irregular for sure, but IMO certainly not deserving of a Titan intervention. My POV:
Rania has a daughter, RPed from RL years as an NPC, which the player decided to eventually "bring to life" by making her an advie. This was meant to represent a daughter that was not officially recognized and that had been mostly kept hidden for many years. After that, the daughter is RPed to escape from his mother and begin a life of adventure in a different realm.
Eventually, and to the case at hand, the daughter comes home and, in a public RP ceremony, Rania recognizes her as her daughter. The RP then continues as she takes part in a ritual where portal stones are used, and the daughter sacrifices herself in the process. This daughter of Rania, now dead, had reciprocal emotional ties to a couple other nobles present in the RP, these ties dating all the way back to when she was used as an NPC. These nobles mourn her, as does Rania.
Now this is where things get interesting. Due to an irrelevant IC issue, dustole's character confronts one of the mourning nobles and berates him for mourning over a commoner. Several nobles, including Rania, jump in over several days and remind dustole's character that, no matter her origin, the daughter of the Rania was, well, the daughter of Rania, and due to how respected Rania is and the sacrifice made by her daughter he is to stop all the ruckus at once.
Alas, he does not. Dustole's character keeps charging repeteadly against the mourning noble and, later on, Rania, and says increasingly severe statements that end up becoming direct accusations to Rania (the leader of the realm's religion, a theocracy), stating that she may have been banging commoners or even Daimons and insinuating that perhaps she might even be an undead abomination. That doesn't sit well with Rania's allies, who come to the rescue and start accusing dustole's character of several things, the final one even being heresy for saying such things about the highest figure of the faith.
Finally, Rania comes in, demotes him to adventurer-level in the religion's temple and says that he is to be isolated as a consequence for his words and actions. Dustole's character doesn't take it good, faces the possibility of a holy trial against him and here we are now.
This is a brief summary, I will respond any questions to the best of my ability.
So irregular? Yes, the decision to have Rania's daughter made as an adventurer and dustole's character demoted to adventurer rank in the faith are inusual. A breach of the game mechanics and reason for the Titans to intervene? Probably not.
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Thanks for the additional perspective, D'Espana.
Dustole, are there any substantial parts of D'Espana's explanation that you would care to dispute? Concisely, please.
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Despana forgot the part where the commoner was declared a noble without without using the game mechanics to do so and was declared Ranias Heir. As for accusing fornication with a commoner or Daimon, no not quite....
Letter from Zebidiah Kabrinski
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients) - 22 hours, 43 minutes ago
Your Grace Rania,
Your own family doesn't recognize her either. Also, you didn't answer the question. Who is the father? How do we know you didn't fornication with some dirty commoner or abused by some Daimon? No, your daughter is not and never will be a noble. Wish all you want. Bluff and bluster all you want. It doesn't change the simple facts.
Zebidiah Kabrinski
Knight of Jidington
Marshal of the Army of Jidington
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Despana forgot the part where the commoner was declared a noble without without using the game mechanics to do so and was declared Ranias Heir. As for accusing fornication with a commoner or Daimon, no not quite....
That's only peripherally relevant to the case at hand—which, if what D'Espana says is true, does not actually involve Zebidiah being declared a commoner in any significant sense.
Please stick to the facts of the matter currently under consideration. With that in mind, are there any substantial parts of D'Espana's explanation that you would care to concisely dispute?
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Letter from Vahanian Blint
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients) - 4 hours, 18 minutes ago
In the eyes of the church you are a commoner. You have been stripped of all other rights, titles, and ranks per the Holy Oracle's decree.
Vahanian Blint
Duke of Amen Telum
Margrave of Grehk
Priest of Heralds of Obeah
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Letter from Vahanian Blint
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients) - 4 hours, 18 minutes ago
In the eyes of the church you are a commoner. You have been stripped of all other rights, titles, and ranks per the Holy Oracle's decree.
Vahanian Blint
Duke of Amen Telum
Margrave of Grehk
Priest of Heralds of Obeah
Letter from Antonia Fitz Roberts
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients)
It is clear to me that the Oracle's will has been misinterpreted. He has not been declared a commoner, simply demoted to a position of dishonour in the faith as a punishment for his gross and flagrant attacks on the sanctity of our Oracle.
Declaring him a commoner would be another thing entirely. He is still a noble, yet in the eyes of the faith a noble so disgraced that he should not hold positions in the faith reserved for the nobility
Antonia Fitz Roberts
Dame of Rines
Marshal of the Farseers of the Oracle
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Convenient ass covering by antonia... I was told I was not allowed to be Marshal or lord because I'm a 'commoner' and now I've been accused of multi cheating.
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Convenient ass covering by antonia... I was told I was not allowed to be Marshal or lord because I'm a 'commoner'
Can you please cite this?
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From Rania's letter, this seems like the relevant bit.
"The faith already has a word for that, written down in the earliest days. Literally by his own hand, Zebidaih Kabrinski has chosen the path of the Infidel: One of those who bear false witness against Obeah, her priesthood, or the teachings of the Faith. For this as well as his bitter, vile disrespect, the grace of my favor is utterly withdrawn. I will no longer protect him from those that mean him ill. I've shielded him too often from the rod, and it seems the child's mind has spoiled. Henceforward, he will be stripped of the title of Lord Templar and busted down to scholar adept, the initiate rank reserved for commoners. However, due to his longstanding debt with the church, he will be afforded one day to return the gold he has taken from the temples otherwise his entry will be entirely stricken from the Book of Names, meaning he will be removed from the faith. If removed, he will be stripped of all his titles, including command of the army as Marshal, and forbidden from holding any lands or offices beyond simple estates. For as long as he remains in disfavor, claiming him as a friend or ally will only tarnish. For now, this is sufficient, and in my opinion mercifully fair, chastisement."
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From Rania's letter, this seems like the relevant bit.
"The faith already has a word for that, written down in the earliest days. Literally by his own hand, Zebidaih Kabrinski has chosen the path of the Infidel: One of those who bear false witness against Obeah, her priesthood, or the teachings of the Faith. For this as well as his bitter, vile disrespect, the grace of my favor is utterly withdrawn. I will no longer protect him from those that mean him ill. I've shielded him too often from the rod, and it seems the child's mind has spoiled. Henceforward, he will be stripped of the title of Lord Templar and busted down to scholar adept, the initiate rank reserved for commoners. However, due to his longstanding debt with the church, he will be afforded one day to return the gold he has taken from the temples otherwise his entry will be entirely stricken from the Book of Names, meaning he will be removed from the faith. If removed, he will be stripped of all his titles, including command of the army as Marshal, and forbidden from holding any lands or offices beyond simple estates. For as long as he remains in disfavor, claiming him as a friend or ally will only tarnish. For now, this is sufficient, and in my opinion mercifully fair, chastisement."
And if that is the passage you are referring to, dustole, nowhere does that state that you are disallowed from being those things because you are a commoner.
You were told that you were being stripped of those privileges due to your political clashes with the powerful in the realm, and being demoted to a church rank normally reserved for commoners due to your clashes with the powerful in the church.
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but if you want me to be on your side in this, you need to a) stop wilfully misinterpreting things other people say/do into the worst possible forms, and b) don't make every attempt of mine to get the full story be like pulling teeth. I get it, you feel like you were treated badly and like they're abusing RP rules. But if you're right, then giving me the whole story, clearly and straightforwardly, from the beginning, is the best way to get something done about it. Just posting one more quote as if that's the pièce de résistance that will, by itself, prove your entire point and make everything come completely clear is both ineffective and extremely frustrating from my poiint of view.
So if you disagree with D'Espana here, please post specific quotes, along with the specific reasons they are relevant, to support every one of your points, or admit that, just possibly, you might have overreacted here.
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The Vahanian quote was what I was referring to. After I posted my question here they changed their characters point of view. I didn't post quotes to start with because I didn't think they would be needed. My main question was about game mechanics trumping RP. I will do better in the future enunciation my questions further. A commoner is a commoner and not a noble. RPing that they are a noble seems like it should be against the rules.
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A commoner is a commoner and not a noble. RPing that they are a noble seems like it should be against the rules.
But what you came here asking about was your noble being declared and treated as a commoner.
Furthermore, while I only know bits and pieces of Stheno's story (primarily the end of it), from what I understand, she wasn't really treated as a noble. She was simply treated as Rania's daughter. An acknowledged bastard doesn't necessarily become noble automatically. (Some may have, in some systems of nobility, but it wasn't at all a universal trait of aristocracies.) And I don't care what Tom's guidelines say: the idea that absolutely every commoner must be treated like less than an animal by absolutely every noble is utterly ludicrous. Treating another human being with a modicum of respect and dignity does not have to mean recognizing them as your social equal.
So please calm yourself, and open yourself to alternative interpretations to the ones that paint people as rotten, and you will probably have a more fun time in BattleMaster. And in life.
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Also, doesn't having a commoner declared a noble and your heir circumvent the 1 noble rule?
She was declared a noble and Ranias Heir. Several other nobles participated. Not just her daughter.
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Also, doesn't having a commoner declared a noble and your heir circumvent the 1 noble rule?
Obviously not, because there is no "1 noble rule"—there's a game-mechanic restriction preventing you from actually having more than one active noble on a continent.
She was declared a noble and Ranias Heir. Several other nobles participated. Not just her daughter.
Then that was probably going a little far, and if I'd known about it, I would have advised JeVondair against it.
But it's hardly an egregious violation of any rule.
Treating a commoner as if they were a noble—particularly in the specific circumstances that pertained to Stheno—may technically violate the RP guidelines for commoners, but declaring and treating a noble as if they were a commoner is a much more serious violation. The former merely creates the possibility for certain kinds of inconsistency and frustration, while the latter is not only something that cannot, in BattleMaster's world, ever happen (not since we did away with the "question nobility" option over a decade ago), its purpose is to exclude and cut off a player character. If someone has done something bad enough that a realm would ever agree to consider them no longer a noble, the correct course of action would simply be to ban them.
I hope this clarifies why I would treat this case very differently if Zebidiah genuinely was being declared and treated as no longer a noble.
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Vahanian's interpretation of the punishment Rania leveled was incorrect from the start. Antonia's was correct.
The relevant portion of the RP in question, which Dustole admitted he did not bother to read, features Rania announcing Stheno as her daughter and heir (lowercase) as a mere introduction to Obian high society. I used the word heir to indicate that, being so named and claimed, no one would miss the drama of the scenes that followed. I did say that she was going to become a knight, however, I knew how the story would end. Some of the participating nobles were already aware, of course, but this was not for their benefit. Rather, I was and am firmly establishing lore for a current, longstanding BM narrative project that remains ongoing.
In short, Rania never said Stheno would inherit her titles/power/legacy, etc. Nor did Rania ever say Zebidiah was no longer a noble or a knight. Also, the main evidence Zeb/Dusty used throughout were the family records that "proved" Stheno was a commoner. No, they "proved" Stheno started a life of adventure. Its semantics, yes, but apparently this entire matter started with semantics.
I have the entire RPs saved, if he'd care to read them now. They began in March.
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Maybe in this game churches different, but real life, church never make noble into common person.
Church can make excommunications, yes.
Real life, I think never happened so not possible make sure, but probably all nobles rebel against church trying to take away such a thing. real life more practical than people think; multiple Popes, self helping Crusades, war against other parts of church
Real life, nobles let church make one noble into common person, maybe they be next? Never let this happen. This story not realistic.
Noble excommunicated can pay indulgences, all okay again. Noble no more noble? What they do? Noble is blood; not possible take away. Everyone know this; no one even have though "now you not noble". Not even possible for thinking.
Maybe people being confused, "not noble" vs. "no more title"? Titles can take away, very common. Nobility, no.
If okay make game like this, also maybe okay outer space monsters come visit, make new realm.
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Maybe in this game churches different, but real life, church never make noble into common person.
And if you will actually go back and read all the posts in this thread, you will see that no one has made the slightest claim that that is what happened.
Please do catch up on all the posts in a thread before posting, especially if you feel upset or wish to correct errors you see in the early posts.
To save you a little bit of time here, I reproduce the most relevant message below, with the most relevant text therein bolded for your convenience.
Letter from Antonia Fitz Roberts
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients)
It is clear to me that the Oracle's will has been misinterpreted. He has not been declared a commoner, simply demoted to a position of dishonour in the faith as a punishment for his gross and flagrant attacks on the sanctity of our Oracle.
Declaring him a commoner would be another thing entirely. He is still a noble, yet in the eyes of the faith a noble so disgraced that he should not hold positions in the faith reserved for the nobility
Antonia Fitz Roberts
Dame of Rines
Marshal of the Farseers of the Oracle
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. Also, the main evidence Zeb/Dusty used throughout were the family records that "proved" Stheno was a commoner. No, they "proved" Stheno started a life of adventure. Its semantics, yes, but apparently this entire matter started with semantics.
The part of the family history that's most important is what's missing. Theirs no affirmation of her becoming a noble. According to the family history she was born a commoner and she died a commoner.
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The part of the family history that's most important is what's missing. Theirs no affirmation of her becoming a noble. According to the family history she was born a commoner and she died a commoner.
I understand where you are coming from but to me all of this honestly feels like unnecessary nitpicking that stomps on other peoples fun. We aren't talking about someone changing the results of a battle or a duel or magically claiming your character is in a region that they are not. We are talking about someone being unable to make an adventurer, who will be dead by the end of the day, into a noble due to one reason and one reason only: the one noble per island limit. I see zero harm in trumping the game mechanics in this very specific case.