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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Glaumring the Fox on March 03, 2011, 02:13:35 PM
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Whats going on in far off realms? Asylon is slowly building up and a lot of the drama and outside conflicts have subsided and we are focusing on realm growth and stability. We have come a long way from when we were two seperate peoples and faiths. Though outside realms like Caerwyn/Astrum etc care more about the faith thing than we do we don't often mention it or even have issue with it within our own realm. Asylon has had a pretty rocky start from neglect then coup then outside interference and constant monster attacks. I am curious to find out the little courtly intrigues that happen in far away places that we rarely interact with.
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Just to mention one of the several things going on in Morek these days, Bowie came to us looking for asylum after having escaped the execution by the Zuma.
Needless to say, a lot of nobles were not happy about that, but Busto likes him. So now he's forbidden to enter half of our regions, a couple of our nobles want him dead and an infiltrator is probably going to stab him soon; I guess he's enjoying his time there.
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Pian en Luries, having finally rid itself of scheming traitors (there may still be a few disgruntled among us, but I wouldn't classify them as "scheming"), is making war on Fissoa. Fun times :)
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Morek and Astrum are invading Averoth. I know, it's not exactly exciting, but it's a necessary bit of housekeeping that has been put off too long.
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Man... Alanna's got character! Haha, love the exchange in Mellifera (excuse my spelling).
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Yes, Mellifera is the hotspot :)
Skyndarbau doesn't know where he has it though, his beliefs are falling apart, his ever consistent principles crumbling :)
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Terran is continuing to try and establish an empire for itself, with quite limited success.
If there are any other Lurians out there disgruntled by Alanna's tyranny, Maroccidens would be happy to welcome you...
But seriously, Terran's an exciting place to be these days. Frequent civil struggles between political factions, reasonably fluid power structure, and almost every guild on the continent has a guildhouse in Terran.... which is pretty neat. These days we're focused on maintaining our regions and helping out Barca, which is a trying task.
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Come now, Vellos, have you been listening to Giaskian tales?
Alanna is no more a tyrant than any Monarch. And like any Monarch, people who disagree with her policies cry "tyranny" and try to take power for themselves.
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Yes, that is something Skyndarbau is beginning to believe also. He's still just really thinking Alanna is setting him up trying to break the Fissoan /brotherhood/... :o
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Terran is continuing to try and establish an empire for itself, with quite limited success.
If there are any other Lurians out there disgruntled by Alanna's tyranny, Maroccidens would be happy to welcome you...
I believe I have first call on disgruntled Lurians, thank you (grins). Though, of course, if all goes according to plan (which it never does, sigh) then we'll be on Maroccidens too.
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Errr.... not sure what that referred to, Bedwyr. Why do you have first call on disgruntled Lurians?
And why will you be in Maroccidens? You're in Pian en Luries. Maroccidens is pretty far away, and full of monsters. And trees. An unfortunately large amount of trees.
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And trees. An unfortunately large amount of trees.
Och, ye gotta beware of th' leafy bastards!
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Errr.... not sure what that referred to, Bedwyr. Why do you have first call on disgruntled Lurians?
And why will you be in Maroccidens? You're in Pian en Luries. Maroccidens is pretty far away, and full of monsters. And trees. An unfortunately large amount of trees.
I'm in Pian en Luries for the moment. (grins) Koli has a debt to pay for what happened to his father Colin.
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I'd totally like to know what's interesting in Madina and in Sanguis Astroism. I noticed Mathurin's back.
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From what I hear there is some crazy scheming going on in AS these days. I really wish I could convert my character to be in on all of that but politics would just go haywire. seriously, death, destruction, and loads of fire and brimstone. :)
For a tiny little realm, Asylon has a lot of political tension centered on it.
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Bring it on, Bedwyr.
But seriously: if you tried to start something over a family feud like that, I would about have a heart attack from the excited flutterings in my heart. You will find few people more willing to start a senseless family feud over a long-dead issue than me. Hireshmont II is a pretty balanced and level-headed person, but that branch of the Vellos family is touchy about kinship ties.
Though, frankly, the death of Colin is more to be blamed on the Anaris family than the Vellos family. The Vellos family at that time was an advocate for peace, reconciliation, and mutual understanding, whereas the Anaris family is full of bloodthirsty savages without a conscience, sense of refinement, or culture.
That is my professional and unbiased opinion, of course.
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Oh and, Tim, you have no idea how heinous trees can get. Right about the time it takes your army 36 hours to travel between regions, you start to hate the land itself.
Given its latitude, culture, etc, most of us playing in Maroccidens have concluded that it's climate is approximately like southern India, or Thailand, or Indonesia.
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...the Anaris family is full of bloodthirsty savages without a conscience, sense of refinement, or culture.
Bloodthirsty and lack of conscience I will cop to on Alanna's part, but while she's more than happy to see anything bad happen to D'Hara, she's never actually had any part in any such occurrence...
...yet.
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Vellos, Colins death rests with me, since my character killed him. However that is not what he refers to. To add further spin, my family will be helping Koli to achieve his vengeance.
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Bring it on, Bedwyr.
But seriously: if you tried to start something over a family feud like that, I would about have a heart attack from the excited flutterings in my heart. You will find few people more willing to start a senseless family feud over a long-dead issue than me. Hireshmont II is a pretty balanced and level-headed person, but that branch of the Vellos family is touchy about kinship ties.
Though, frankly, the death of Colin is more to be blamed on the Anaris family than the Vellos family. The Vellos family at that time was an advocate for peace, reconciliation, and mutual understanding, whereas the Anaris family is full of bloodthirsty savages without a conscience, sense of refinement, or culture.
That is my professional and unbiased opinion, of course.
Has nothing to do with Colin's death, merely his reasons for leaving Dwilight. And I have a hope that House Vellos and House Bedwyr will be working together after it, not against.
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Ahhh.... things make sense now.
I'm now very curious about all of this; I was quite unaware that PeL had anything against D'Hara. But that's probably something I should hear about IC.
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D'Hara was founded by a PeL rebel, who then rebelled in Shadovar to make D'Hara. Pretty simple.
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Yeah the PeL/Giask/Fissoa conflict is pretty fun for me. I'm thinking of making Shin turn into a religious nut and go and start sacrificing people for his god, but these plans are in the far future :)
What happens in Madina?
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D'Hara was formed...well, since I was part of Shadovar I can give a slightly accurate chronicle.
Edelstein Greenburie seceded Port Nebel to found Shadovar. After some stuff with Melodia, Shadovar took Port Raviel. Around this time a bunch of refugees from Pian en Luries led by Katayanna Ogren, who had come from the failed Verus Luria fiasco, joined Shadovar to assist against monsters. Edelstein found out that Katayanna was part of the underground and banned her. There was some protest.
I forgot the first name, but the Marquis of Nebel Something Bronzeweasel, who was a real-life friend of the player of Mathias Ridder, got the Sahdovar army to go to Nebel so Mathias could start a rebellion. After that he OOC banned the duke of Port Raviel, Richard Con Doin, for which he was bolted. Katayanna Ogren got dukeship of Port Raviel and later seceded, forming D'Hara. Stuff happened after that I guess but I stopped caring after that point.
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Everywhere Ironsides trouble follows...Its funny and kind of odd.
Question to people in Madina... What do you all do down there? Is it basically a stepping stone nation or what? Never hear from you guys at all... Its so far away from the action.
I find the Giask/Pel/Fissoa fight interesting in a kind of sadistic watching molasses fighting tar battle in cold weather... Its like everyone knows there is a fight going on but it basically takes 50 years inbetween battles.
Asylon is frustrating but more fun and more options than Thulsoma had, but we're basically in the same position we were in as there,surrounded by monsters oh and the wild monsters in the forests too.
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What happens in Madina
...stays in Madina.
Or so I would surmise.
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lol where is the 'like' button?
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it's the "applaud" button.
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You have to have a certain number of forum posts before those links appear. I *think* it's 10 posts, but it may be a bit higher.
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Hm, didn't know that D'Hara was formed by PeL rebels. That was, I think, while I was paused for a few weeks, or else early in Terran's time, when I had bigger things on my mind.
Heh Melodia. Now Melodia was a fun piece of chaos.
You learn something new every day.
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I originally came from Melodia, but when it fell headed over to Shadovar and was having a jolly time when the D'Harans came over and then took over , banned me for some rea.son I cannot really remember anymore and then found they were wrong and unbanned me, but by then I was booting out of that fiasco. Surprised that region is still going.
I was actually originally from Madina on an other account , went up to Melodia and helped in the founding of that colony but around that time Tom found I was using two accounts and it was deleted, so I had to come up with a whole new history that kind of resembled the old one without all the quirks... Never will cheat again. Really annoying that was but glad it was found out early and not at like a stage like this in the game when I am actually doing stuff fun. Lesson is! DOn't multiaccount!
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News from Madina!
I recently had a General there and was trying my hardest to get one army to help out Fissoa. But elections came around and I'd (purposely) left monsters roaming around Madina just a tiny bit (5 hordes running around is tiny, right?) and lost. The new General seemingly withdrew support for Fissoa in an attempt to clean my mess (I'm not sure if he has any plans to go back, since my character isn't privy to that any more).
Monsters were defeated and internal politics started to flair a little. The player of our Doge had to leave for OOC commitments. Duchess of Candiels took over as ruler. There was widespread support for the former Duke of the region to take over, but it came from a lot of the Dogess' enemies so it was ignored. The old Duke didn't have a mechanics claim, so someone else was put in his place who did have one. Some people are shouting about the constitution and the Book of Claims (a wiki version of claims that Madina uses for RP) being broken, but not much is coming of it.
There's a little talk of declaring war on the northern regions, but the armies aren't up for it. Personally, I think Madina is on its way out as we're running out of players to support all our regions.
As an aside about why my character left lots of hordes running around Madina: There are three armies (one of them has just one person in, so we ignore it). One army was off helping Fissoa, the other tasked with defending Madina. The Marshal of the defending army was the Duchess of Candiels, someone my character doesn't really like. So I was hoping to let Madinan regions fall, blame her for not following orders and have her power significantly challenged. That backfired and there were cries of "the General should deal with the monsters, not the Marshal" and that's when elections happened.
Is there any news on the Zuma? Madina had some contact with them and got on rather well.
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News from Northern Dwilight.
A rebellion is breaking out in Averoth. :o Shock horror. :P
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A rebellion is breaking out in Averoth. :o Shock horror. :P
Is that an attempt to avoid the wrath of SA?
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Asylon has very good relations with Zuma and we frequently trade food and cooperate on monster killing. Its not super buddy buddy, but there is a common goal of clearing out monsters and feeding people... Oh and eventually teaming up and taking over the world...I mean...!@#$ how to erase that last sentence, can't figure out this new forum... :P
Averoths revolt is probably an attempt to avoid Astrums blitz...yeah
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Is that an attempt to avoid the wrath of SA?
My initial thinking exactly. :)
Apparently however, Averoth's leader was quite inactive and not making any decisions regarding it's defense against SA.
A combination of both perhaps?
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My initial thinking exactly. :)
Apparently however, Averoth's leader was quite inactive and not making any decisions regarding it's defense against SA.
A combination of both perhaps?
Replace inactive with erratic. Speaking of erratic, anyone seen Haruka lately?
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There's a little talk of declaring war on the northern regions, but the armies aren't up for it. Personally, I think Madina is on its way out as we're running out of players to support all our regions.
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Is there any news on the Zuma? Madina had some contact with them and got on rather well.
I suspected Madina had a character shortage. Terran's a little low also; we could use 2 or 3 more knights.
Candiels should secede, and Fatmilak should join it. Join the Maroccidental community! Support the League of the Véinsørmoot! Maroccidens for Maroccidens!
The Zuma... are erratic. Hireshmont has a working relationship with Ambassador Garret, their liaison to the outside world. We have mostly a policy of passive neglect towards one another, but the Zuma are given a limited voice within the Véinsørmoot, so we do have some formal relations with them.
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Oh dear Madina. :o
Just declared their position against SA and I'm guessing this is their way to sort out character shortages (refugees).
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I believe the current attitude towards the Zuma is pretty much 'Don't piss them off', as seen what happened when they didn't like the new Duke of Rettleville.
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Candiels should secede, and Fatmilak should join it.
Problem there, Fatmilak is the capital :P
Madina might secede and become, umm... Madina?
Oh dear Madina. :o
Just declared their position against SA and I'm guessing this is their way to sort out character shortages (refugees).
That's just a side effect. We've had a few bad meetings with SA, I guess the Dogess just remembered them :)
I look forward to seeing how SA takes it though, with Madina being so far to the south it's quite hard for them to declare war. We tried with D'Hara and it didn't go too well, they were only a boat ride away from our capital at the time.
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That's just a side effect. We've had a few bad meetings with SA, I guess the Dogess just remembered them :)
I look forward to seeing how SA takes it though, with Madina being so far to the south it's quite hard for them to declare war. We tried with D'Hara and it didn't go too well, they were only a boat ride away from our capital at the time.
Fair enough. ^_^
Due to the distance war wouldn't be possible. The only trouble this really causes for SA is how Madina could prevent their expansion southwards.
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Problem there, Fatmilak is the capital :P
Not a problem at all. The capital cannot secede, but it can change its allegiance to another realm as long as it is not the last remaining duchy in the realm :)
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Hm, didn't know that D'Hara was formed by PeL rebels. That was, I think, while I was paused for a few weeks, or else early in Terran's time, when I had bigger things on my mind.
Heh Melodia. Now Melodia was a fun piece of chaos.
You learn something new every day.
Not that today's D'Hara has much to do with Shadovar's original rebels.
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Someone mind telling me why Madina's capital is no longer Madina?
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Can someone please tell me how Haruka and her ilk have become the victims in this fiasco? They have tortured priests... TORTURED! The war with SA didn't go full tilt until they TORTURED SA priests, not once did SA torture a Saxon priest, yet SA is getting the bad reputation of destroying a realm that was rabidly xenophobic, that stated over and over again how superior their own faith is and their desire to destroy all other lower faiths other than Hedremoth and TORTURED priests, not once but 2 or 3 times as I remember..
Then Averoth, who signed a Federation with Thulsoma during my reign as the original founder of Thulsoma, I leave and Averoth comes to the aide of Thulsoma under the Saxon hegemony and fullfills the federation with Thulsoma for a federation that was originally signed for Averoth to defend a fellow Sanguis Astroist theocratic state from invasion from the fascist regime of Libero.
Can anyone see how messed up the situation is in the north and how it could have been avoided if Sanguis Astroism and Libero had of heeded my diplomatic overtures to the leadership in Libero, which they chose to ignore so they could start a war with a fellow Astroist theocracy... All for land and power, now see how far Libero has fallen, to a mere 16 nobles and Summerdale claiming the lands that thousands of SA crusaders died for... The quagmire of the northern war, fullfilled all by the masterplan of one man, Glaumring the Apasurain..muhahahhaha
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Can someone please tell me how Haruka and her ilk have become the victims in this fiasco? They have tortured priests... TORTURED! The war with SA didn't go full tilt until they TORTURED SA priests, not once did SA torture a Saxon priest, yet SA is getting the bad reputation of destroying a realm that was rabidly xenophobic, that stated over and over again how superior their own faith is and their desire to destroy all other lower faiths other than Hedremoth and TORTURED priests, not once but 2 or 3 times as I remember..
Doesn't this necessitate that the priests were first imprisoned? and doesn't it follow that they must have been in a land where they were uninvited?
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Someone mind telling me why Madina's capital is no longer Madina?
The Council at the time didn't like the Duke of Madina. It was a case of "he doesn't log in any more, how can we deal with it in character?" We decided to start weakening him by removing people from his army, not actively selling food to Madina, poaching his knights and then moving the capital. He still keeps the region alive, but the power locked up in the region has pretty much gone now. The next step will be poaching his regions, but I'm no longer part of the Council so I can't say if we're doing that or not.
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Uninvited or not torture is something that I wouldn't just bandy about as a remedy, banishment is sufficient no? Or negotation. There was also an Astroist temple in the Saxon lands, I built it... It was torn down by the saxons, the temple there preceeded their arrival by many years. The main problem is this, Libero pushed and pushed for a war, and we original Thulsomans decided instead of fighting we would unite with Summerdale and retake Thulsoman lands(game mechanics wouldnt allow our kingdoms to join as one) Then as if by chance , either a curse or blessing... The Saxons came from across the sea and made the Thulsoman exodus so much more interesting, Haruka seized the empty throne of Thulsoma and called her nobles from far lands to rebuild the kingdom of Thulsoma as a new entity, the Saxon Hedremoth faith... For it helped us to fight the war against Libero without our own nobles losing a single man or spending a dime.... the Saxons would weaken Libero for us... We receeded into the far lands away from Summerdale and the north and joined Asylon.
Would an expert on that conflict please weigh in? I am only familiar with the build up, and Libero aggression, not the later Saxon arrival and crusade part
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For it helped us to fight the war against Libero without our own nobles losing a single man or spending a dime.... the Saxons would weaken Libero for us... We receeded into the far lands away from Summerdale and the north and joined Asylon.
That's an interesting way of re-writing history - "It was all my master plan!".
Being a council member in Libero since it's inception, I can quite positively say that the aggression against Thulsoma as a Theocracy was imagined. We had a much bigger problem with Summerdale and didn't want to delve into the religious issues of fighting another SA realm.
You personally sent me several OOC letters on the issue and I responded at that time in kind that there was no pressing IC reason for a war with Thulsoma to occur.
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A few posts back someone explained the situation with Madina's capital.
As for D'Hara, it went through several adjustments since the original Shadovar rebellion. Katayanna seceded to form D'Hara. Later Cenarious rebelled and became the Dragon King in 2008. In 2010 or sometime recently Cenarious disappeared and now there's a new guy. Ask D'Harans for details.
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Can someone please tell me how Haruka and her ilk have become the victims in this fiasco?
They are victims only in their own minds. From the day Haruka arrived on Dwilight she took an aggressive and hostile attitude toward SA. She started by insulting nobility in general, claiming that she was "just walking down the street" when a council of peasants walked up to her and told her they wanted her to be their Queen. (This was, literally, the day after she arrived in Thulsoma. It's also why quite a few people refer to Haruka as the "Peasant Queen".) Then Thulsoma proceeded to inform SA that the 99.9% SA following in Thulsoma was a not true, that all the peasants were really followers of Hredmonath, they were just pretending to be followers of SA. Once they built a temple of their new religion they would all convert.
That was when I ordered a priest to be sent to Thulsoma to just stir up a little trouble to point out how things really were on the religion side of things. We did, actually, have 99.9% following in Thulsoman lands. And as Thulsoma had been formed by SA as an SA realm, we felt quite justified in having our priests in Thulsoman lands. Elsebeth, unfortunately, got captured and promptly tortured. We knew at the time that LE was planning on attacking Thulsoma, so we decided to hang back for a while and let LE take care of Thulsoma for us, rather than attack ourselves.
Unfortunately LE flubbed it badly. Very badly. Thulsoma also formed their religion for real and started to convert the peasantry. SA had no choice but to take care of it ourselves. That's when I declared the crusade against Thulsoma.
LE's war against Thulsoma had no influence whatsoever with SA going after Thulsoma. There's no way that SA would go out of its way to prop up LE.
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D'Hara:
I can confirm that it was in January 2011 that the Dragon King finally paused, after a long period of very little activity. We now have a republic ruled by the region lords.
Marche Telrunya is our Prime Minister.
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Doesn't this necessitate that the priests were first imprisoned? and doesn't it follow that they must have been in a land where they were uninvited?
This precisely. And you can't ban priests unless they are caught in the act of doing something nasty. SA priests had nothing to do there, it was clear they were just setting up the grounds for an invasion, as all leaked messages from SA clearly paint.
Notably SA's will to have it illegal for any realm to banish SA priest preaching, lest all the SA realms invade. Obviously, non-SA realms don't like this.
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This precisely. And you can't ban priests unless they are caught in the act of doing something nasty. SA priests had nothing to do there, it was clear they were just setting up the grounds for an invasion, as all leaked messages from SA clearly paint.
Notably SA's will to have it illegal for any realm to banish SA priest preaching, lest all the SA realms invade. Obviously, non-SA realms don't like this.
Did you read Indirik's post? Or just ignore it because it didn't support your preconceptions?
I mean, I'm hardly the biggest fan of SA, but come on...
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Did you read Indirik's post? Or just ignore it because it didn't support your preconceptions?
I mean, I'm hardly the biggest fan of SA, but come on...
I didn't ignore it, I've read this before.
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Heh.
In Terran, one of our lords managed to unilaterally sack an Astroist temple and get away with it.
Woops!
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Heh.
In Terran, one of our lords managed to unilaterally sack an Astroist temple and get away with it.
Woops!
This quite possibly deserves a medal. xD
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D'Hara:
I can confirm that it was in January 2011 that the Dragon King finally paused, after a long period of very little activity. We now have a republic ruled by the region lords.
Marche Telrunya is our Prime Minister.
Or some sort of Monarchy - Republic mashed up attempt there. Vellos knows a bit more behind that history, as my character had the pleasure of screwing the original plans up. My character was actually sad the King abdicated, even though he was strongly against him. I still wonder how we would have pulled off our alternate plans. It's a pity that never materialized.
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This quite possibly deserves a medal. xD
We managed to build a SA temple right next to Caerwyn and not start a war (much to the displeasure of a few SA people), does that deserve a medal? or do only anti SA actions get those?
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We managed to build a SA temple right next to Caerwyn and not start a war (much to the displeasure of a few SA people), does that deserve a medal? or do only anti SA actions get those?
Gives medal :D
Considering one of my characters is a noble of the Morek Empire and a full member of SA I also also deem this medal worthy (note: the medals aren't real ;)). Sorry about my last post, I just found it amusing tis' all.
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Or some sort of Monarchy - Republic mashed up attempt there. Vellos knows a bit more behind that history, as my character had the pleasure of screwing the original plans up. My character was actually sad the King abdicated, even though he was strongly against him. I still wonder how we would have pulled off our alternate plans. It's a pity that never materialized.
Marche is constantly screwing up the plans of the Vellos Family. An Anaris loyalist in Rio and now, even in Dwilight, where our characters are friends, you still had to go and have your king abdicate and take his place, instead of doing something awesome and shaking up Maroccidens. Fie on you! Fie!
The politics of Maroccidens are extremely entertaining to me. Terran has constant back-and-forth between Triunist radicals and Astroist radicals (or really just our one Astroist radical), with the moderates on each side trying to maneuver their allies into positions of power while keeping the realm together... and meanwhile, monsters. Oh, and trees.
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Asylon is squished in the middle of SA and VE , makes for an interesting realm...
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This precisely. And you can't ban priests unless they are caught in the act of doing something nasty. SA priests had nothing to do there, it was clear they were just setting up the grounds for an invasion, as all leaked messages from SA clearly paint.
OK, straight OOC Truth, from the player who's character gave the order that resulted in Elsebeth going to Thusloma: The above statements are both wrong and misleading:
1) SA priests had every right to be in Thulsoma. Thulsoma was formed by an SA realm as an SA colony. There were SA temples in a couple regions of Thulsoma, including Storm's Keep. 99.9% of the peasantry in the realm followed SA. In fact, SA priests had as much right to be in Thulsoma as VE priests have to be in Asylon. The parallels between the two situations (Sanguis Astroism/Thulsoma and Verdis Elementum/Asylon) are actually pretty remarkable.
2) SA had no intention at all to invade Thulsoma. It was a crappy little two-bit, tin-pot dictatorship that was so far below the radar that no one cared about it. No one ever thought that Haruka would ever manage to resurrect its corpse and make something worthwhile out of it. We didn't want the land. We didn't want to attack it or kill it. It is true that there was one or two people who were members of SA who probably wanted to attack them. Like Glaumring, who was the leader of the originally colony that failed. Or Allison, the insane lady who drilled holes in her head and wants to basically kill everyone that isn't SA, and about 2/3rds of those who are. But you'll have those kinds of nutjobs in any realm/religion. That does not make the entire religion bent on destruction of all non-SA realms.
3) Up until the time the crusade was called by my character, there was no SA plan for aggression against Thulsoma. Our plan was to ignore Thulsoma, and let the Libero Empire deal with them. The Libero Empire's war with Thulsoma had no religious basis at all. It happened at a time that was convenient for Sanguis Astroism, but we had nothing to do with starting it. If LE had been a bit more successful at fighting Thulsoma, SA would never have gotten involved.
4) Messages from Glaumring or Allison are simply not an accurate depiction of any position or policy of SA, either official or unofficial. Neither one ever had the power to make policy decisions for SA, or give any kind of orders that would result in an SA attack on Thulsoma.
Notably SA's will to have it illegal for any realm to banish SA priest preaching, lest all the SA realms invade. Obviously, non-SA realms don't like this.
OK, that's just so wrong, I can't even argue with it any more than say that there's nothing in that statement that bears any resemblance to reality.
And note, this is all form an OOC perspective. This isn't any kind of propaganda or posturing. This is the straight truth on the situation.
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Storm's Keep did have level 7 walls or something. That was interesting, I guess.
The entire north part of Dwilight composed of Averoth, Summerdale, and formerly Thulsoma, are all confusing to me. I know absolutely nothing of Averoth except that it originally was an unsanctioned colony by some dudes from Morek. And Allison tried to sabotage it and got protested out of office. Then there was a crusade declared against them, and sometime along the way it stopped. Since my dude was being called a heretic during the time, I kinda missed out on what happened with Averoth. Then it rebelled or something and it turned into some tyranny with German-sounding council names.
Summerdale was from Raivan Empire, and was supposed to continue in Springdale's legacy. (If Summerdale also dies, will we next see an Autumndale? ???) I also have no clue what's up with that realm, but Bowie was part of Summerdale when he supposedly decided to run around Volcano Nightscree and other such places crowing his head off about being an Immortal Dark Demon Dragon Prince Count Vampire Pixie Fairy or whatever the heck it was. So all I know is that Summerdale's king is pretty darn defiant and likes to talk tough.
Oh, and Thulsoma's dead. That's about what I know about them during Haruka's reign.
I also think I'm the one and only true heretic of SA. Heck yeah! 8)
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In Terran, one of our lords managed to unilaterally sack an Astroist temple and get away with it.
Yeah, I remember that. The message you sent about it was pretty funny.
But regardless, the fact that Terran is just too far away for SA to do anything about it is really the main reason that nothing was done. Do you really expect Astrum, Corsanctum, and Morek to send huge armies all the way across the island, land in Paisly, and march up to Chesney or Chateau Saffalore? It's not like Caerwyn would let us march through their lands. We have some big armies and a lot of gold, but there are still limits on what can be done.
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Asylon is squished in the middle of SA and VE , makes for an interesting realm...
I think there are only a couple SA members left.
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Storm's Keep did have level 7 walls or something. That was interesting, I guess.
The entire north part of Dwilight composed of Averoth, Summerdale, and formerly Thulsoma, are all confusing to me. I know absolutely nothing of Averoth except that it originally was an unsanctioned colony by some dudes from Morek. And Allison tried to sabotage it and got protested out of office. Then there was a crusade declared against them, and sometime along the way it stopped. Since my dude was being called a heretic during the time, I kinda missed out on what happened with Averoth. Then it rebelled or something and it turned into some tyranny with German-sounding council names.
Yes Averoth was formed as an illegal Morekian colony, we sabotaged it but some of the refugees from the almost dead Everguard (if I am not wrong) ran there and developed it. Since however they were torenists and declared enemies of SA, Astrum decided to go there and burn down all their temples killing those in between. That made their torenist core to run away and left the realm more or less open to whomever wanted to. The reformed Averoth claimed freedom of religion and was left on its own. No one in SA really cared about them anymore, as they seemed reasonably calm neighbors. Indirik knows better the story as he was the one burning everything.
When the war against Thulsoma brewed up, at the beginning Averoth was more or less on Thulsoma's side to avoid the penetration of Libero in the Nifel peninsula. At first when Morek got involved (and I stress that it was more because Haruka executed a Morekian noble than for the crusade by itself) they were warned we had no interest whatsoever in putting a foothold in the nifel peninsula, and they remained outside the war.
Then, once Thulsoma was almost dead - going from almost 9k cs behind lvl7 walls to just a couple thousands cs and no peasants to draft - they suddenly entered storms Keep that was in the process of being looted by Morek without any reasonable motivation, basically winning a free ticket for annihilation at morek's hand. The plot behind this was just to provoke Astrum in the hope Caerwyn would attack them, as it was also whispered to us by the rebel leader of a recently failed rebellion there, but something went wrong apparently.
As things are unfolding now, I can't quit thinking that the ruler of Averoth is willingly sacrifying his own realm in the hope someone else would gang against SA -and for the moment only madina heed the call, another unexplainable act- because his deliberate refusal of Astrum's peace offers and not even attempted reconciliation with Summerdale are just too weird to explain otherwise.
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OK, straight OOC Truth, from the player who's character gave the order that resulted in Elsebeth going to Thusloma: The above statements are both wrong and misleading:
1) SA priests had every right to be in Thulsoma. Thulsoma was formed by an SA realm as an SA colony. There were SA temples in a couple regions of Thulsoma, including Storm's Keep. 99.9% of the peasantry in the realm followed SA. In fact, SA priests had as much right to be in Thulsoma as VE priests have to be in Asylon. The parallels between the two situations (Sanguis Astroism/Thulsoma and Verdis Elementum/Asylon) are actually pretty remarkable.
2) SA had no intention at all to invade Thulsoma. It was a crappy little two-bit, tin-pot dictatorship that was so far below the radar that no one cared about it. No one ever thought that Haruka would ever manage to resurrect its corpse and make something worthwhile out of it. We didn't want the land. We didn't want to attack it or kill it. It is true that there was one or two people who were members of SA who probably wanted to attack them. Like Glaumring, who was the leader of the originally colony that failed. Or Allison, the insane lady who drilled holes in her head and wants to basically kill everyone that isn't SA, and about 2/3rds of those who are. But you'll have those kinds of nutjobs in any realm/religion. That does not make the entire religion bent on destruction of all non-SA realms.
3) Up until the time the crusade was called by my character, there was no SA plan for aggression against Thulsoma. Our plan was to ignore Thulsoma, and let the Libero Empire deal with them. The Libero Empire's war with Thulsoma had no religious basis at all. It happened at a time that was convenient for Sanguis Astroism, but we had nothing to do with starting it. If LE had been a bit more successful at fighting Thulsoma, SA would never have gotten involved.
4) Messages from Glaumring or Allison are simply not an accurate depiction of any position or policy of SA, either official or unofficial. Neither one ever had the power to make policy decisions for SA, or give any kind of orders that would result in an SA attack on Thulsoma.
OK, that's just so wrong, I can't even argue with it any more than say that there's nothing in that statement that bears any resemblance to reality.
And note, this is all form an OOC perspective. This isn't any kind of propaganda or posturing. This is the straight truth on the situation.
Who says we have to care how Thulsoma started out? That we have to recognize SA claims to it?
Second of all, it's not because you didn't plan something that other SA members didn't.
Lastly, that's information that's running around.
You aren't the head of SA, Indirik, much less do you represent every single soul in that religion. SA is filled with a lot of people with different aspirations, that your reasons to do X were Y doesn't mean others didn't do it for Z.
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Who says we have to care how Thulsoma started out? That we have to recognize SA claims to it?
For the same reason that we have to recognize VE's claims to Asylon? Founder's claim is what Caerwyn used to force Asylon to kick out Sanguis Astroism. So, no, you don't *have* to accept SA's founders claim to Thulsoma. But to ingore that claim while enforcing it on Asylon is outright hypocritical.
Second of all, it's not because you didn't plan something that other SA members didn't.
You're correct. But since, at the time, my character was the leader of SA, appointed by the Holy Prophet himself to rule in his stead, I would think that I would have the right to speak officially on SA's behalf. And you didn't say that it was some particular member's plan to do something. You made the claim that it was SA's plan. And that was not the case.
Lastly, that's information that's running around.
And it's wrong. Which is why I'm taking the opportunity here in the forums, in an OOC discussion, to clear them up.
You aren't the head of SA, Indirik
At the time that most of this went down, I was. I think that' gives my word a bit of official-ness to it, regarding these particular incidents.
, much less do you represent every single soul in that religion. SA is filled with a lot of people with different aspirations, that your reasons to do X were Y doesn't mean others didn't do it for Z.
Of course not. But I can authoritatively say what was and was not SA's goals, aims, and policies. So when you make claims about SA's official policies, I can categorically deny them. When you claim that SA did something to lay the ground work for an invasion, that's simply wrong. Did some particular person in SA want to invade Thulsoma? Of course. But that does not make it SA's goal in sending Elsbeth to Storm's Keep. I can guarantee you that this was not the case.
So, no, I can't speak all-inclusively for every noble who was a member of SA. I can, for that period of time, speak authoritatively on the overall religion's goals and policies. Which is how I know your claims regarding SA's policies are false.
But neither can you speak conclusively for all of SA when all you have is one or two messages from people who were not in charge at that time, and not empowered to make official declarations are decisions. That would be like me taking a single message from some run of the mill knight in Caerwyn and loudly proclaiming it to be official Caerwyn policy.
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Yeah, I remember that. The message you sent about it was pretty funny.
But regardless, the fact that Terran is just too far away for SA to do anything about it is really the main reason that nothing was done. Do you really expect Astrum, Corsanctum, and Morek to send huge armies all the way across the island, land in Paisly, and march up to Chesney or Chateau Saffalore? It's not like Caerwyn would let us march through their lands. We have some big armies and a lot of gold, but there are still limits on what can be done.
Oh, I know it was mostly just a distance thing; the same issue you now have with Madina, I guess. It's just so darn far away.
I think there are actually few religions with a more complex relationship to SA than Triunism. Triunist priests, Metis and Hireshmont, are quite moderate, advocate compromise, and view SA as a variant. The powerful laity, such as the temple-sacker Dallas and another guy O'domus, tend to view Astroists as a bit above snakes and a bit below rats. So when they do something hostile against SA, like sack a temple, I end up having to clean up their mess.
I'm curious how that all looked on your end, though. Did the issue even get much discussion?
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Please all note the new "Sanguis Astroism" thread that Vellos created.
If you feel the need to reply to Indirik's message Chénier please do so in that thread where you may debate the evils of SA to your hearts content. :D However as far as I see it, Indirik has the best grounds to comment on SA's actions OOC in a factual manner considering his character was in charge at the time of the events in question.
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Yes Averoth was formed as an illegal Morekian colony, we sabotaged it but some of the refugees from the almost dead Everguard (if I am not wrong) ran there and developed it. Since however they were torenists and declared enemies of SA, Astrum decided to go there and burn down all their temples killing those in between. That made their torenist core to run away and left the realm more or less open to whomever wanted to. The reformed Averoth claimed freedom of religion and was left on its own. No one in SA really cared about them anymore, as they seemed reasonably calm neighbors. Indirik knows better the story as he was the one burning everything.
I think that's a pretty fair account of the wars that lead to the death of Everguard, the formation of Averoth, and then Astrum's war on Averoth. We left Averoth when we had managed to destroy all the Torenist temples, and tear apart a fair bit of Averoth's infrastructure.
Interestingly enough, Sextus Severus, current ruler of Averoth, appeared as a new character in Yggdramir on the same day that Astrum's armies arrived in the region to attack Averoth. Basically an hour or two after Sextus' character was created he found himself in a battle, alone against Astrums' entire army. We exchanged a few letters about the irony of the situation. A few weeks later he wrote a letter to my character offering to turn Averoth into some kind of vassal state of Astrum. I passed it along to the ruler of Astrum, but nothing ever happened with it. A few months later Sextus led a rebellion and took control of Averoth. By that time I don't think there were any of the original Everguard Torenists left in the realm. By now I think the realm is made up mostly of people brought in by the ruling powers, as well as refugee "Saxons" from Thulsoma.
I do have to say that the Averothians have done a remarkable job of building their realm. Averoth boasts some impressive walls, lots of recruiting centers, and a very large army. Especially when you take into consideration the tiny income of their realm.
When the war against Thulsoma brewed up, at the beginning Averoth was more or less on Thulsoma's side to avoid the penetration of Libero in the Nifel peninsula. At first when Morek got involved (and I stress that it was more because Haruka executed a Morekian noble than for the crusade by itself) they were warned we had no interest whatsoever in putting a foothold in the nifel peninsula, and they remained outside the war.
Yeah, after the original declaration of the crusade, it languished for quite a while. It only really gained ground when Bustoarsenzio get mad and wrote a big rant about it. Fear Busto's powers of persuasion. ;D
Then, once Thulsoma was almost dead - going from almost 9k cs behind lvl7 walls to just a couple thousands cs and no peasants to draft - they suddenly entered storms Keep that was in the process of being looted by Morek without any reasonable motivation, basically winning a free ticket for annihilation at morek's hand. The plot behind this was just to provoke Astrum in the hope Caerwyn would attack them, as it was also whispered to us by the rebel leader of a recently failed rebellion there, but something went wrong apparently.
Averoth obviously wanted to provoke the war with Astrum. That was obvious from Sextus' message when we declared. I don't have a copy of the message, but it was something like: "Finally!" Caerwyn's quick reaction in threatening war as well points to a fair amount of planning and collaboration between them. Maybe not at the ruler/council level, but at some level there there had to be collaboration between the two.
As things are unfolding now, I can't quit thinking that the ruler of Averoth is willingly sacrifying his own realm in the hope someone else would gang against SA -and for the moment only madina heed the call, another unexplainable act- because his deliberate refusal of Astrum's peace offers and not even attempted reconciliation with Summerdale are just too weird to explain otherwise.
I *think* that Averoth's ruler has been pretty inactive lately. The messages from some of the people in Averoth in response to our invasion has been a lot of "Our ruler is never around, and never tells us what's going on." Most of them so far refuse to believe that Astrum sent Averoth an unconditional peace offer.
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I'm curious how that all looked on your end, though. Did the issue even get much discussion?
Not really. We passed it along to Labell to deal with, him being a priest of SA, and a bigwig in Terran. From there, it mostly got dropped on the floor and forgotten. Which was fine with me. I don't think your letter even got passed on to anyone other than the Elders of SA. If I had passed along tot he full members that the temple of SA in Terran (I forget the region) was being used to stable cows and horses, there would have been a big call for an immediate invasion. So in the name of discretion and sanity, I sat at my desk and chuckled, and rather quickly resolved to bury that message.
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Please all note the new "Sanguis Astroism" thread that Vellos created.
If you feel the need to reply to Indirik's message Chénier please do so in that thread where you may debate the evils of SA to your hearts content. :D However as far as I see it, Indirik has the best grounds to comment on SA's actions OOC in a factual manner considering his character was in charge at the time of the events in question.
As a player, I don't really care. I play on Dwilight because I have an established character there and because I can't have 3 nobles on Beluaterra. So I really couldn't care less about SA, as a player, and therefore have no interest in OOC discussions about it.
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For the same reason that we have to recognize VE's claims to Asylon? Founder's claim is what Caerwyn used to force Asylon to kick out Sanguis Astroism. So, no, you don't *have* to accept SA's founders claim to Thulsoma. But to ingore that claim while enforcing it on Asylon is outright hypocritical.
Dude, what is all this throwing Asylon under the bus? :-\ VE has no claim to Asylon beyond what I give it, and SA has not been kicked out of Asylon. It is true we kicked out the duke of Echuir and destroyed the temple there, but this centered more on an apparent power struggle within the realm that manifested itself strongly in that duke. Once the duke was removed and exposed, my position and power was solidified and a friend was established as duke.
I would also like to point out that there is a temple to SA in the Heaps, which initially caused quite the uproar in VE and Caerwyn (we are talking threats of annihilation).
So if you want to state that SA has a claim on Thulsoma, I would like to point out that at some point realms have to grow up and assert their own identity. Thulsoma did this and was killed for it, admittedly they did it in a foolish manner (you really need to take baby steps). We did it and although we truly had no actual power backing us up, we stood our ground. So please don't claim that we are a puppet of Caerwyn and VE, Asylon has put a great deal of effort into assuring that isn't the case.
disclaimer: I have very little against SA, I think it adds a great deal of interest to Dwilight.
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Indirik speaks clearly about the events.
Asylon is an independent nation, a secular nation and holds two faiths currently VE and SA. The difference between us and the Saxons is that the Saxons were xenophobic and tortured to attain a place for their religion and purposely pitted themselves against SA. SA in Asylon has worked with VE, we have advocated peace and cooperation, and our nation we believe is the future of Dwilight. Thulsomas end and Asylons beginning may at first seem the same but they diverge at a point. I know I was there for both realms ends and beginnings.
In my opinion SA has been more at war with themselves and for some reason the other realms have taken offense to that and have tried to include themselves in SA's internal struggles... VE and SA are hardly good enemies, there is not black or white struggle, or conflict, stars and elements are hardly goatheaded horned daimons and blood sucking baby eaters. This struggle will rise and it will fall, it will probably fall with VE taking the brunt of the fall because its nations are so scattered around the map, where many of the SA nations are close and feed off eachother in a cycle.
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having finally rid itself of scheming traitors
Barca is cool and Anaris-free. No one falsely accuses you of treason there.
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Dude, what is all this throwing Asylon under the bus? :-\ VE has no claim to Asylon beyond what I give it, and SA has not been kicked out of Asylon. It is true we kicked out the duke of Echuir and destroyed the temple there, but this centered more on an apparent power struggle within the realm that manifested itself strongly in that duke. Once the duke was removed and exposed, my position and power was solidified and a friend was established as duke.
Since I'm not in either Caerwyn or Asylon, and not a follower of VE, I can only speak based on what I've seen. We have been passed various messages from sources inside Caerwyn/VE that quite clearly and blatantly claim that Asylon is essentially VE property. Caerwyn threatened to go to war with Asylon because someone in Asylon built an SA temple. These messages also contained claims that since Caerwyn\VE founded Asylon, that they had control over what kind of religion was allowed in Asylon. I refer to these to merely point out that SA's "claim" on Thulsoma is essentially the same claim that various people in VE/Caerwyn were making regarding VE's "claim" on Asylon. (I'm pretty sure Chenier's character on Dwilight is a member of VE. I may be misremembering that, though.)
I would also like to point out that there is a temple to SA in the Heaps, which initially caused quite the uproar in VE and Caerwyn (we are talking threats of annihilation).
Yes, that's the incident I am talking about. Caerwyn's claim was that since the temple was adjacent to a Caerwyn region, that it would somehow pollute Caerwyn with SA followers. I had not heard that Caerwyn relented and allowed the temple to stay. My character dropped down to Aspirant status in SA a long time ago to avoid the insane/inane message traffic.
So if you want to state that SA has a claim on Thulsoma, I would like to point out that at some point realms have to grow up and assert their own identity. Thulsoma did this and was killed for it, admittedly they did it in a foolish manner (you really need to take baby steps).
That's not really how it happened at all. Thulsoma was in the process of being abandoned due to massive monster invasions. One day, as the realm was falling apart in anarchy and empty of nobles, Haruka showed up as a new immigrant. She immediately elected herself as ruler and appointed herself as Duchess and just about every other council position. (Check Vanimedle' family history for the exact timeline.) Thulsoma didn't "grow up" to assert an identity. It was just suddenly taken over and literally overnight declared to be something completely different than it had been.
We did it and although we truly had no actual power backing us up, we stood our ground. So please don't claim that we are a puppet of Caerwyn and VE, Asylon has put a great deal of effort into assuring that isn't the case.
I don't believe I ever claimed that Asylon was a Caerwyn puppet. I was merely pointing out that, from what I've seen, VE\Caerwyn claims some authority over the religious activities of the colony because they were the ones that founded it and had some hand in writing it's original charter.
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Claims are debatable, their basis for legitimacy arbitrary.
I don't see why you want to debate these things OOC. It's unhealty, imo.
My ambitions and reasoning are not my characters'.
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Someone started an ic/ooc topic and asked questions. I don't mind answering them, and maybe asking a few of my own, especially on the older topics. The recent Asylon topic, though, may be a bit too recent for a real all-in-the-open OOC discussion.
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I don't mind the OOC, its interesting to hear different opinions.
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Interesting times in Morek, Duchess Allison is threatening secession because Grandmaster Bustoarsenzio is refusing to support her colony as she will be taking around 20 nobles with her. She might actually do it this time.
My character is trying to make the Auspicious Army neutral.
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My character is trying to make the Auspicious Army neutral.
And your character have just been completely undermined. :p
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Ohhh man, sounds like SA is still chock full of cutthroats.
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It is official, Aegir Duchy has seceeded from Morek. It is on like Donkey Kong.
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It is official, Aegir Duchy has seceeded from Morek. It is on like Donkey Kong.
So what is the story behind this? Is it just the frustrated colonization attempt?
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A combination of that and supposed infringement on the rights that Dukes have.
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So what is the story behind this? Is it just the frustrated colonization attempt?
Just a very badly concluded negotiation to keep the balance between "I found a colony with how many people I want" and "if you bring away 40% of Morek we are not going to be on friendly terms with your colony". Allison accused busto of not respecting the freedom of the duchies and asked he to step down. He didn't and she seceded.
War is quite likely
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Yay? So 40% of Morek consists of fanatics and/or manipulable idiots? 8) Wait then why isn't Bowie in Entei (a pokémon? :o lol)
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Yay? So 40% of Morek consists of fanatics and/or manipulable idiots? 8) Wait then why isn't Bowie in Entei (a pokémon? :o lol)
Allison despises Bowie and vice versa so, well, I don't see him running off to join Entei (woah it actually is :o) anytime soon. :)
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It's interesting they're using oneof my Aquilegia banners though. Interesting because Allison was among those (mini-Allison aka Anabellium and useless duke aka Veuvius or something (volcano lol) who eliminated Garret's Aquilegia. Sadly it was never really recovered after that.
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This topic is going really fast. On the discusion of Madina, The explanation some people are giving is just only a small (more public) part of it.
For example the Capital has been changed indeed because of a conflict between almost all Madinas land owners and some others in Madina with Governor Sage who refuses to step down per there will.
This has caused various plots against him, like assasniation atempts, not selling food, referendas, and now the moving of capital and the changing of aliegance of Madinas landowners to the duchy of fatmilak.
Nothing seems to work, against Sage.
And now most of the older members in Madina bound with Sage as a new mutual inner republican treat seems to apear amongst the younger nobles.
The declaration against SA was indeed an atempt to atract refugees in order to deal with the low influx of new nobles.
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So basically Madina is a functional basketcase state?
The eastern continent is always more exciting... The west is slower and it will take time for the splits and breaks that have happened on the east already. But they will happen.
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So basically Madina is a functional basketcase state?
What do you mean with basket case? or functional? :P
Madina fucntions as it it does but it is by far one of the most uneficient realms in BM.
It has to much individual freedom for lords and there is no real feeling of nationalism.
It creates fun situations especialy with so many typical characters.
But it isn't really efficient.
Indivdual people gain wealth and the republic gains nothing, and it will only expand based on personal ambitions by certain governors(dukes).
A split will thus very unlikley happen.
The realm it's self is split enough as it is.
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It's a great shame Madina doesn't have more players in it. I find it quite fun playing there, but it gets a little boring when my character faces off against - or is supported by - the same person all the time.
I think having very little sense of nationalism in Madina is what makes it a great realm. Every man/woman is out for themselves, yet at the same time they realise that they need the other Lords/Knights to prop themselves up. I just wish that the Dukes would take a little more self control. The constitution says they can send expeditions to wherever they want (I think, it's been a while since I read it), but none of them do. I could easily see Candiels duchy raiding Barca, then Fatmilak duchy selling it food because the Dukes oppose each other. But something like that won't happen because the Dukes don't throw their weight around enough.
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It's interesting they're using oneof my Aquilegia banners though. Interesting because Allison was among those (mini-Allison aka Anabellium and useless duke aka Veuvius or something (volcano lol) who eliminated Garret's Aquilegia. Sadly it was never really recovered after that.
Atleast Vesuvis did have good contacts.
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Atleast Vesuvis did have good contacts.
Sure sure. Don't sweat it, there's nothing serious about my posts here.
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Ah, its Adriddae...Tsk, Vesuvis - running off without even telling your dear wife =.=.
It's okay though! I borrowed your name without your permission. Annnnnnnnnnnnd...you had a daughter you didn't know about.
Glad to know I'm still remembered though!
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I just wish that the Dukes would take a little more self control. The constitution says they can send expeditions to wherever they want (I think, it's been a while since I read it), but none of them do. I could easily see Candiels duchy raiding Barca, then Fatmilak duchy selling it food because the Dukes oppose each other. But something like that won't happen because the Dukes don't throw their weight around enough.
Your completly right, and it is quite hard to get rid of the most powerful person in the whole realm.
I hope once oportunity alows to skeme against him again properly, things will drasticly change.
Abbot allready has great plans for his next term as Governor of Madina.
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Does anyone have more info on the Zuma? Why aren't they shown on the map? Do they really exist? Is this like the BT invasion or something?
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Does anyone have more info on the Zuma? Why aren't they shown on the map? Do they really exist? Is this like the BT invasion or something?
Zuma? What's a Zuma? ??? ::)
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Does anyone have more info on the Zuma? Why aren't they shown on the map? Do they really exist? Is this like the BT invasion or something?
The Zuma are... there. I can't tell you that much about them even though my realm has the best relation with them. I know two things: Artemesia's character is their voice, and their lands are grympen mire, ruins of w... , the volcano, Nightmarch (capital city), Dragon song and roost, and upper and lower root.
I think they are largely peaceful, but it is different kind of peaceful as their culture seems quite unique. Each Diamon looks different from the rest, and their appearance seems to highly impact their level of civility.
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This topic is going really fast. On the discusion of Madina, The explanation some people are giving is just only a small (more public) part of it.
For example the Capital has been changed indeed because of a conflict between almost all Madinas land owners and some others in Madina with Governor Sage who refuses to step down per there will.
This has caused various plots against him, like assasniation atempts, not selling food, referendas, and now the moving of capital and the changing of aliegance of Madinas landowners to the duchy of fatmilak.
Nothing seems to work, against Sage.
And now most of the older members in Madina bound with Sage as a new mutual inner republican treat seems to apear amongst the younger nobles.
The declaration against SA was indeed an atempt to atract refugees in order to deal with the low influx of new nobles.
You could simply, you know, pull a PeL and force him to secede, then re-invade the city. The general can scrap all his militia before you do, too. Or ban the duke? Is he a royal or something? Or starve the city to revolt...
If you are counting on assassination, it's no wonder you can't get rid of him.
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You could simply, you know, pull a PeL and force him to secede, then re-invade the city. The general can scrap all his militia before you do, too. Or ban the duke? Is he a royal or something? Or starve the city to revolt...
If you are counting on assassination, it's no wonder you can't get rid of him.
how's that for RP consistency? reeks like powergaming ...
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how's that for RP consistency? reeks like powergaming ...
That's things that Pian en Luries did. Which is ruled by a dev. That is, starving the city into revolt and forcing it to secede.
I can't think of anything wrong with simply banning him, if the option is present, but that is likely to just make him secede anyways. Or switch to GDoF.
As for the general thing, it's been done in rebellions since way before I joined up. All of the rebellion guides on the wiki tell you to recruit the general to have him scrap the militia before the rebellion. I've never seen anyone make a fuss about it, so I don't see why it wouldn't be alright in this case. After all, scrapping militia ain't free, and the duke can always recruit them back.
IMO, goes farther for RP consistency than just moving your capital away to a far-off region because the duke won't do anything anymore.
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Theres lots of Rp consistency, a bunch of people would like to extend there amount of power in the realm and my character wants his city back.
It's been going on for a long time now and caused many intresting roleplays and interaction with people and even a unique item was involved and so on.
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That's things that Pian en Luries did. Which is ruled by a dev. That is, starving the city into revolt and forcing it to secede.
Starving a city as part of a siege is the oldest trick in the book when you can't take the walls. Forcing it to secede is an actual mechanic now, so clearly that's not a problem. The General that got rid of all the militia did it to the capital in preparation for a rebellion, as he was working with the people who got kicked out.
I've got to say that the internal fighting and politics of PeL is more interesting than most realms' external diplomacy.
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I've got to say that the internal fighting and politics of PeL is more interesting than most realms' external diplomacy.
Too bad the Giaskan rebellion failed:)
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We managed to build a SA temple right next to Caerwyn and not start a war (much to the displeasure of a few SA people), does that deserve a medal? or do only anti SA actions get those?
I'll give you a medal for that. It flat out amazes me the extent to which SA is maligned, vilified, and reviled outside of our little bubble.
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Too bad the Giaskan rebellion failed:)
Oh, given PeL's history it's only a matter of time before the next round of civil strife begins :P Place your bets now!
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how's that for RP consistency? reeks like powergaming ...
How's cutting an entire duchy from your realm, splitting it in half, even close to powergaming? The Judge had a referendum running to impeach Alanna, so she didn't have the luxury of waiting around and risk losing her throne. So, she did what she had to do to torpedo the referendum, aka boot out everyone voting against her in one swift blow (ironically she ended up losing the referendum anyway due to a bug in the code, which was kinda funny). It's perfectly in line with how Alanna protects her interests. If even half the rulers in the game were as ruthless as her, BM would be infinitely more interesting. And that's coming from someone she had kicked out right after the civil war :P
As for starving a city out, that really isn't anything new. I'd been hoarding food in Askileon for months while Giask and Poryatown were starving. I'm still amazed that in all that time the banker didn't even notice that one duchy was sitting on thousands of bushels while the other two barely scraped enough food together to sustain themselves, let alone grow. That was my way of making sure my duchy stayed on top. Alanna never forced me or even asked me to do that, and I'm not even sure she knew just how much I had stockpiled since the only other person who could check on my warehouses never did.
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How's cutting an entire duchy from your realm, splitting it in half, even close to powergaming? The Judge had a referendum running to impeach Alanna, so she didn't have the luxury of waiting around and risk losing her throne. So, she did what she had to do to torpedo the referendum, aka boot out everyone voting against her in one swift blow (ironically she ended up losing the referendum anyway due to a bug in the code, which was kinda funny). It's perfectly in line with how Alanna protects her interests. If even half the rulers in the game were as ruthless as her, BM would be infinitely more interesting. And that's coming from someone she had kicked out right after the civil war :P
As for starving a city out, that really isn't anything new. I'd been hoarding food in Askileon for months while Giask and Poryatown were starving. I'm still amazed that in all that time the banker didn't even notice that one duchy was sitting on thousands of bushels while the other two barely scraped enough food together to sustain themselves, let alone grow. That was my way of making sure my duchy stayed on top. Alanna never forced me or even asked me to do that, and I'm not even sure she knew just how much I had stockpiled since the only other person who could check on my warehouses never did.
I was hoping for someone to prove me wrong and provide some more info :) Silly banker :p
Well, @Fissoa it's waiting for another civil war, I guess :) Btw, howmany nobles does PeL count? That would provide easier comparison than #regions...
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Which realm is the best realm to play in? I've been in Astrum for almost a year but things I've done so far are fighting monsters and winning tournaments. Except that crusade. It wasn't bad except it took literally a week to attack Storms Keep. Pressing travel and presetting wasn't really the most fun part.
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The best realm is almost always the one you put the effort into. All realms seem to be exciting once you take part in some of the higher planning and politicking, but you are going to have to put in the effort to get to that position.
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I like how this convo has gone on with no Caerwyn input.
Well, I am Caerwyn's judge and for a long time now we've been plotting to war with Astrum! You'll all see it in your events by now. It's the perfect time to do so, too, with Morek out of the game for a bit. We've known about Astrum's plots and schemes for a while now, but have played the "cowardice" card pretty well! Astrum's leaders looked away from us and actually thought we'd go along with their little Federation XD!
Well now it's time for a real war! Astrum is gonna get beat with those monsters up in Gaston, some 40 Averothians to the north and Caerwyn's might to the south. Have fun, you're all in for a rough ride.. not that I get to join in... gotta maintain regions and all that jazz.
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Uh... hate to burst your bubble, pal, but Astrum has been expecting war with Caerwyn for quite some time now ;)
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We still have a few tricks up our sleeves :P It will turn into a mighty good war, though, rather than all those 1-sided fights we've been seeing
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Caerwyn must have changed since I was last there then. Cause back then I wouldn't have trusted them in a war against a much smaller realm, let alone Astrum.
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I like how this convo has gone on with no Caerwyn input.
Well, I am Caerwyn's judge and for a long time now we've been plotting to war with Astrum! You'll all see it in your events by now. It's the perfect time to do so, too, with Morek out of the game for a bit. We've known about Astrum's plots and schemes for a while now, but have played the "cowardice" card pretty well! Astrum's leaders looked away from us and actually thought we'd go along with their little Federation XD!
Well now it's time for a real war! Astrum is gonna get beat with those monsters up in Gaston, some 40 Averothians to the north and Caerwyn's might to the south. Have fun, you're all in for a rough ride.. not that I get to join in... gotta maintain regions and all that jazz.
The fun part is that Astrum had no plots or schemes whatsoever :D
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I don't think Morek will be out of this for nearly as long as you think.
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Well, I am Caerwyn's judge and for a long time now we've been plotting to war with Astrum! You'll all see it in your events by now. It's the perfect time to do so, too, with Morek out of the game for a bit. We've known about Astrum's plots and schemes for a while now, but have played the "cowardice" card pretty well! Astrum's leaders looked away from us and actually thought we'd go along with their little Federation XD!
I'd really be interested in knowing where these schemes came from. I get the whole spy thing. (Although it wasn't a spy. You sent your secret rallying cry for allies to face off against SA directly to an SA member. Woops. :-[) But these supposedly secret plans? It's really some creative writing on someone's part.
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Psh, I'm not saying it was my plan. I just went along with the whole scheme of things. Though Caerwyn took forever to rally... and yes, I know we sent that to some SA members - it couldn't be helped.
How long did I say Morek would be "out of it"? I've been playing this game for a solid 2+ years now, I know Entai will have a very short life-time. Nonetheless, they will not be there for the start which usually plays out to who has the advantage. Of course, anything could happen.
And whether or not Astrum had schemes or not, which I'm fairly certain they did as I know three of their dukes IRL, makes no difference.. TO WAR!
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How dare they plot without me! :p
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No, no schemes at all actually, that's the ironic part. As Indirik noted elsewhere, after all the things SA actually did, it's kind of funny that they had to fabricate a reason for war. Caerwyn's behavior the last couple months has certainly put Astrum in warier frame of mind as regards them, but no one that I know about in either Astrum or the Church actually had any plans for Caerwyn at all, and considering the fact that I rule Astrum I would hope that I would know if someone was planning something unpleasant, seeing as how Astrum would probably be a key piece of any such plan.
In any case, I do believe the war will be very entertaining for everyone involved, win or lose. Definitely the largest conflict Dwilight has ever seen, or is likely to see.
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Has anyone noticed that there are now forty-two (42!) nobles in Averoth?
Must be some epic tax income to be had...
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Maybe those guys who used to be in Thulsoma went there, explaining why only 3 remain in regionless Thulsoma. But that only brings them up maybe to 30 something, so I guess people got wind that Averoth was duking it out with SA and went there? Who knows.
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Yes, they must be calling in their friends to help them fight. A lot of their families hail from Averoth territories... It must be a fun realm to keep that many players with no income!
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Yeah, that's *exactly* what it is....
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Wow. You guys just turned this into a real Caerwyn-Averoth hate thread. This is one of the things I hate about BattleMaster.. when things go the wrong way, some people just assume too much and call other players liars. I didn't "fabricate" the war yet I am one of the people who pushed for it and knew a lot of key information being passed around. As a character, what was I to know better? As for my family, whose founding father was exiled and banned from Astrum? Please understand the role-play point of view is very in my favor.
This is supposed to be a community forum, not a hate scene where we dis the other side. Have some respect at least before throwing around assumptions. Perhaps other nobles of other realms or the information we received from inside Astrum was false but how are we to know that? Certainly more so than Astrum's leaders themselves...
Edit: typos :P
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I can become easy to forget the IC aspects when we get into heated OOC stuff. I will preemptively say I am not involved in this conflict, and any refutations made by either side, let's keep in mind whether we really know what was going on with the characters. Lies and deception work on all levels, so for all we know Caerwyn's ruler really believed whatever he said, even if SA disagrees.
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Wow. You guys just turned this into a real Caerwyn-Averoth hate thread. This is one of the things I hate about BattleMaster.. when things go the wrong way, some people just assume too much and call other players liars. I didn't "fabricate" the war yet I am one of the people who pushed for it and knew a lot of key information being passed around.
Well, perhaps they're upset that their characters are being lied about, hmm?
Whether or not you're the one doing the lying, it seems pretty clear to me, from everything I know IC and OOC, that at least a big chunk of Caerwyn's justification for the war was false. People tend to get upset when that sort of thing happens. I know I'd be upset if, for instance, Morek Empire had declared war on Pian en Luries, insisting that we had planned to attack them next.
As for Averoth, if they're being hated on, then I think they're getting what they deserve for supporting the most hated realm on Dwilight, and having such close ties with the so-called "Saxons". I don't know about anyone else, but I have found the Vanimedlé player to be one of the more annoying I have encountered in my time here, and I've never even been in the same realm with any of his characters. Part of it is his penchant for sending long roleplays to the ruler channel, and another part is his insistence on using Old English for so many important things in Thulsoma and Hredmonath, even after he was told many times that it was unacceptably exclusive of those who do not know Old English.
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Well, perhaps they're upset that their characters are being lied about, hmm?
Whether or not you're the one doing the lying, it seems pretty clear to me, from everything I know IC and OOC, that at least a big chunk of Caerwyn's justification for the war was false. People tend to get upset when that sort of thing happens. I know I'd be upset if, for instance, Morek Empire had declared war on Pian en Luries, insisting that we had planned to attack them next.
This. I would like to think I wasn't "hating" on Caerwyn with what I said. All I stated was the truth, which is that the stated justification for war has no basis in fact. I certainly would not hold that against the players whether they knew this or not, though I will certainly hold one HELL of a grudge IC.
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Certainly I would dislike being lied about but I also dislike being called a liar and fabricating a war I thought was legit. It works both ways. Anyways, if Astrum knew Caerwyn was going to war eventually, why not try and convince us otherwise? You instead let things play out and against you.
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Wow. You guys just turned this into a real Caerwyn-Averoth hate thread. This is one of the things I hate about BattleMaster.. when things go the wrong way, some people just assume too much and call other players liars. I didn't "fabricate" the war yet I am one of the people who pushed for it and knew a lot of key information being passed around. As a character, what was I to know better? As for my family, whose founding father was exiled and banned from Astrum? Please understand the role-play point of view is very in my favor.
This is supposed to be a community forum, not a hate scene where we dis the other side. Have some respect at least before throwing around assumptions. Perhaps other nobles of other realms or the information we received from inside Astrum was false but how are we to know that? Certainly more so than Astrum's leaders themselves...
Edit: typos :P
I saw no hate against Caerwyn in this thread, just people stating the view of the conflict from THEIR perspective. Averoth is another matter, but then if the Vanimedlé family is there, that is par for the course. I've encountered ALOT of players that detest the way he plays, both for the whole Old English thing but also for the "methods" they used to keep their stronghold standing.
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Anyways, if Astrum knew Caerwyn was going to war eventually, why not try and convince us otherwise? You instead let things play out and against you.
Wut? We did! We stopped a war at Baal's request. We completely dissolved and rewrote a three realm treaty at Baal's request, and submitted it for his approval. He even approved and said it was acceptable. He even said that if Caeryn ended up breaking the federation, that they would not go to war, but would return to peace. He even said that he was so pleased, that he would renew his offer to send forces north to help Astrum battle monsters.
Out of curiosity, what exactly were you expecting us to do?
But, anyway, you probably did us a favor in the long run. Nothing like a war against a foreign invader to bring people together.
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Uh... hate to burst your bubble, pal, but Astrum has been expecting war with Caerwyn for quite some time now ;)
That is where I meant to direct my question. And yeah... the whole Baal thing was a trick to make you look the other way. We need time to plan and rally, which is especially hard to do without telling any Marshals or nobles. It all went on in the realm council, spanning some 6 nobles. We suspected exactly what Baal said in his letter to all the rulers and there was a general distaste or rather hatred against SA for destroying the northern "pagan" realms. Caerwyn being one, we were thoughtful of the fact that we may be next and if we didn't act now, we would never have enough power (combination of us, Averoth, etc) to face SA.
The Brotherhood of Astrocracies was a real in for the schemers. Translated a certain way, it definitely looked like an alliance against all pagan nations. Oh yeah and might I add this: Allison.
On another note, the "Too Much Peace" message kept popping up for us but that wasn't a reason that lead us to war at all, but it is a rather annoying feature in the game.
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Eh? The northern pagan realms got destroyed? What's Summerdale doing alive then?
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Well, we were certainly getting wary of Caerwyn. Baal kept swinging from confrontation to soothing words and peaceful talk. I had come to suspect that there was a faction in Caerwyn that was pressuring him hard to go to war with us, and that he was just reacting to that pressure when he was forced to. I also assumed that unless something changed, Caerwyn's internal dynamics would lead them to war with us *eventually*. I did *not* anticipate that the faction in question was actually the realm council and that they were plotting war the entire time, I thought it was just a populist thing that would blow over until the next time we did something that got the hardline anti-SA people in the realm all riled up, but I had hoped to spend a while working on better relations once Averoth was dealt with once and for all and hopefully take the wind out of their sails.
I believe you'll find that we are prepared to some extent however. Baal's earlier saber-rattling led us to take a number of precautions, just in case ;)
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To the extent of calling all lords to recruit up? It will be a war of quick movement and decisive decisions. A war always rallies a nation and realms together. We're almost in an 8-realm-alliance :P
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How many nobles in Dwilight are active? I've seen many people following orders in EC but barely see people act in other continents.
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To the extent of calling all lords to recruit up? It will be a war of quick movement and decisive decisions. A war always rallies a nation and realms together. We're almost in an 8-realm-alliance :P
And how many realms in that alliance are actually going to be taking a significant part in the war? Thulsoma is dead, Madina and Fissoa can't do anything, I doubt Asylon, D'Hara and Terran will play a major role, so that leaves Averoth and Caerwyn.
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Yes, I wonder what cards Caerwyn has up her sleeve as Astrum seems to be far stronger then Caerwyn alone already. Madina will have trouble contributing to the War due the long travel times, assuming Terran allows them passage through her lands. Fissoa is currently already in a War with the Lurians. Terran also has a large SA element in it and I'm not sure they will be taking an active role, especially with Barca needing their attention for now. D'Hara has elements of SA and VE in her Realm and has made no move to change her stance of neutrality for this conflict.
So that means Caerwyn, Averoth and Madina, with the latter being obstructed by her long travel times. Anyway, I'll surely be watching this War, as it does seem very interesting.
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Asylon is a secular state, we have SA and VE in our kingdom as equals, we are not a theocracy like Caerwyn or the eastern kingdoms. We can barely control our own lands, we have no intention to march across Dwilight to tell anyone else how to run theirs.
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To the extent of calling all lords to recruit up? It will be a war of quick movement and decisive decisions.
Quick movement? On Dwilight? Surely you must be joking, sir! ;)
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Yes well, quick for Dwilight :P Anyways, military power isn't the only way other realms can contribute. And Astrum has a ton of militia. Their mobile forces aren't all that big as I have seen. Caerwyn also has a very good set up for defense and the main reason Astrum may flounder is the fact that it's a two-front war. At this point they cannot address both but rather one then the other. By the time they get to the second, a lot of damage will have been done. Not to mention the monsters out in Gaston that you tend to have a lot of trouble with.
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The irony of Caerwyn's entrance into the war is that is that it is nearly identical to (from the outside at least) what Astrum did to Evergard, which resulted in the founding of Averoth.
Let us see if history repeats itself!
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I don't really see the parallel to Everguard, as that was a straightforward one on one.
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I don't really see the parallel to Everguard, as that was a straightforward one on one.
This really boils down to a Astrum v Caerwyn war (aside from Averoth's magical 10k army). Caerwyn systematically mislead you and then launched a surprise war on you in the same fashion that you did with Everguard - a quick about face from good pals even at the highest levels to a war of extermination. I find the parallels quite striking. Again, this is from an outsider's point of view.
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Ah, fair enough. I wasn't at the top at the time, though I had a hand in promoting the idea. That was more of an expansion issue though. Everguard had us boxed in with their claims. We had nowhere to go but into the mountains and we desperately needed rural regions to feed Eidulb and Libidizedd.
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And Everguard was proving unable to occupy all the lands they were claiming. So all the land Astrum was needing to expand and become self-sufficient were laying rogue, claimed by Everguard.
Ironically, the war with Everguard was not really intended to be an outright war. Originally we were going to just void the treaties and take land that Everguard wasn't occupying. We needed the Shrine and Sabadell to get a connection north toward more free farmlands.
Unfortunately our forces were a bit slow traveling, and Everguard made it to the Shrine the same turn we did. One of our players said he was going to log on early in the turn and start the TO. But he overslept or something, and Everguard got their TO running first. We had to declare the war to attack their TO force. We still did not immediately intend to wipe out Everguard. I forget exactly what the trigger was that turned it into a war of extermination. Whatever it was, I then wrote a couple long essays on the evils of Torenism and got it declared Evil. That was surprisingly easy, given the violent and militaristic bent of Torenism with all of its "convert them by the sword" theology.
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Informative! Interesting to know these intricacies.
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Now you'll have a challenge writing a report on the evils of Verdis Elementum! ;D
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Now you'll have a challenge writing a report on the evils of Verdis Elementum! ;D
Shouldn't be all that hard. Their followers moved into Duil, started a BTO, and immediately went for the KRB looting.
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Morek has already solved its secession problem and is getting ready to destroy Averoth.
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Whether or not you're the one doing the lying, it seems pretty clear to me, from everything I know IC and OOC, that at least a big chunk of Caerwyn's justification for the war was false. People tend to get upset when that sort of thing happens. I know I'd be upset if, for instance, Morek Empire had declared war on Pian en Luries, insisting that we had planned to attack them next.
Isn't that not really in the spirit of the game. Sure Alanna would be pissed if Morek did that but you shouldn't really mind. It would actually be kind of cool.
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For me, I like it when people take something I've done and use it against me. It keeps things IC and relevant.
Like, for example, using the secret society stuff that Caerwyn's judge has been spreading around. It's mostly inaccurate, and vastly out of date, but it's something that we really did. Whereas the "Put a duke in every city on the island" stuff is just wrong. As was the CTO of Golden Farrow. If Caerwyn really got that info, and didn't make it up, then some really suckered Caerwyn on it.
If you just make stuff up, then it's basically saying that you want to have a war, but can't find a reason that doesn't make you into the bad guy. Or you don't care or know what's really happening. So you make stuff up.
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If you just make stuff up, then it's basically saying that you want to have a war, but can't find a reason that doesn't make you into the bad guy. Or you don't care or know what's really happening. So you make stuff up.
There are many, many reasons to make up reasons. Maybe you just want the feeling of power at getting people to believe you. Maybe you aren't very able to separate your suspicions from the things you know. Maybe you believe this war, even if you lose it, will achieve you some other, hidden objective.
Maybe Caerwyn's leadership is secretly radically Astroist, and believes Caerwyn will ultimately lose a war against SA...
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If you just make stuff up, then it's basically saying that you want to have a war, but can't find a reason that doesn't make you into the bad guy. Or you don't care or know what's really happening. So you make stuff up.
Welcome to diplomacy.
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It would be fun to see VE empire if SA collapses rofl.
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A VE empire isn't hard to imagine. Like SA they have followers in multiple realms. Caerwyn has been as aggressive as any of the theocracies. They've gone to war with Terran and D'Hara in the past, and now Astrum to boot. Plus they've threatened Asylon with invasion at least once that I am sure of, if not more. Remove Astrum from the west and I don't think it's a stretch to see Caerwyn becoming the next hegemonic power.
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...and the City of Madina has decided to become a part of D'Hara!
Gornak is making a play for the Dukedom, even if it's only to hand the city back to Madina.
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...and the City of Madina has decided to become a part of D'Hara!
Gornak is making a play for the Dukedom, even if it's only to hand the city back to Madina.
Pfft, don't be a pussy. Make them work to get the city back :D
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D'Hara has a history of weird territorial claims: didn't ya'll hold Giask once or twice too?
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Yes, they did. Once under Chris Hsieh, and once after it was thoroughly ransacked and burned by PeL during the civil war.
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Yep. We were at War with Pian and Luries even, as we didn't hand the City back in time. D'Hara has a thing for coastal cities ;)
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What we've been told in Madina is that D'Hara is likely to hand the region back to further an alliance with Madina for the war with SA.
Seems a shame to me, some of us worked quite hard to make the region rebel and now it's just going to be given straight back to us - given the trend of giving regions back to their former owners, it'll likely go back to the old Duke too :(
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Then you're really doing something wrong in Madina :P Not returning the City would be diplomatic suicide and I think our Banker can't handle much more peasants dying daily ;)
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PeL is trying to raid Fissoa, however undisciplined actions are costing them troops. Queen Alanna is routing after her defeat, rumours say.
Their main force is closing in on the capital though...
All in all, PeL is not living up to the threats the've been giving out so freely :)
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Yep. We were at War with Pian and Luries even, as we didn't hand the City back in time. D'Hara has a thing for coastal cities ;)
Correction: Coastal cities have a thing for D'Hara. 8)
What we've been told in Madina is that D'Hara is likely to hand the region back to further an alliance with Madina for the war with SA.
Seems a shame to me, some of us worked quite hard to make the region rebel and now it's just going to be given straight back to us - given the trend of giving regions back to their former owners, it'll likely go back to the old Duke too :(
D'Hara doesn't want war with anybody. I guess your leadership is lying to you. How shocking. ::)
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PeL is trying to raid Fissoa, however undisciplined actions are costing them troops. Queen Alanna is routing after her defeat, rumours say.
Their main force is closing in on the capital though...
All in all, PeL is not living up to the threats the've been giving out so freely :)
<smiles> I think destroying the Fissoan force that made an incursion, slaughtering a fair bit of militia, looting at our leisure, and moving to sack the townsland surrounding the Fissoan capital while the Fissoan army is reduced to picking off stragglers demonstrates the point fairly clearly.
This word will be sent out IC through various channels, but do note that the relative restraint in looting was intentional, not accidental. If I'd wanted to do it, three or four Fissoan regions would be half-burned and depopulated already.
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<smiles> I think destroying the Fissoan force that made an incursion, slaughtering a fair bit of militia, looting at our leisure, and moving to sack the townsland surrounding the Fissoan capital while the Fissoan army is reduced to picking off stragglers demonstrates the point fairly clearly.
This word will be sent out IC through various channels, but do note that the relative restraint in looting was intentional, not accidental. If I'd wanted to do it, three or four Fissoan regions would be half-burned and depopulated already.
You have an uncanny ability to make your situation sound better than it is, Bedwyr.
I'm on to you.... *Clint Eastwood Eye Squint*
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<smiles> I think destroying the Fissoan force that made an incursion, slaughtering a fair bit of militia, looting at our leisure, and moving to sack the townsland surrounding the Fissoan capital while the Fissoan army is reduced to picking off stragglers demonstrates the point fairly clearly.
This word will be sent out IC through various channels, but do note that the relative restraint in looting was intentional, not accidental. If I'd wanted to do it, three or four Fissoan regions would be half-burned and depopulated already.
To be fair, the Fissoan Rebels are lucky the army did not attack their 'army' when it was in Kamande, or stay in Mangai for a bit, else your that entire 'army' would be dead.
As for Fissoa itself, is it prepared to face the might of the Golden Sword of Luria? I sincerly doubt it ;)
The Fissoan Rebels have been very very lucky, but the point stands - can you defeat our first incursion? An incursion that only has a percentage of the full force of Luria? *insert more propoganda here* ;)
It should be an interesting few days, maybe even weeks :D
Also Kudos to the militia and the unit of Mkhai, damn my evil traitor scouts for leading into Mangai three hours early :'(
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What we've been told in Madina is that D'Hara is likely to hand the region back to further an alliance with Madina for the war with SA.
Right... err... D'Hara will give Madina back to Madina... in order to... fight SA? Because D'Hara is just BEGGING Madina to fight SA... right?
Madina's leaders do how much crack again?
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So why does D'Hara have Madina now?
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You have an uncanny ability to make your situation sound better than it is, Bedwyr.
I'm on to you.... *Clint Eastwood Eye Squint*
<smiles> I have an uncanny ability to read scout reports. And I know how much in the way of forces Pian en Luries has in Irvington and points north. Do you?
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So why does D'Hara have Madina now?
Because the realm of Madina has been intentionally starving the city of Madina in order to expel the Duke--I read that somewhere around here.
D'Hara has enough trouble feeding its people as it is--Gornak has now reached the max of 12 caravans, in order to feed the realm. We don't need another food-sucking city, D'Hara needs passage rights for me and my flotilla of trading vessels.
(Hey, anyone wanting to play trader, D'Hara's willing to buy at 40gc/100bushels...)
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<smiles> I have an uncanny ability to read scout reports. And I know how much in the way of forces Pian en Luries has in Irvington and points north. Do you?
Actually we do :p PeL is facing several monster hordes in it's borders as well.
Fissoa just has a lot less resources, and I don't think we're doing that bad versus the Mighty Lurian Empire :) We never started this war to destruct PeL, only to stand firm under it's continuous threats :) The great distance between Askileon and Fissoa is our advantage, for that matter. Not having Irvington is a handicap though.
The whole thing in Mellifera almost made Skyndarbau leave it all behind though :p
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Because the realm of Madina has been intentionally starving the city of Madina in order to expel the Duke--I read that somewhere around here.
Wow that really means you hated him. Usually before the peasants kick the lord out dozens of thousands die of starvation and you would have back in your hands a fairly undeveloped city
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Wow that really means you hated him.
It was more an effort to remove him from office. The Duke didn't buy any food for the peasants of Madina, instead he expected free hand-outs (the constant buy order was set at 1 gold per 100 bushels). He didn't fund his army, nor issue it any orders (even though he was the Marshal) and he didn't actively seek out getting knights for the region, even when new nobles turned up.
I'm not overly sure why he wasn't just banned from the realm, but I guess this way was much more fun! :D
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It was more an effort to remove him from office. The Duke didn't buy any food for the peasants of Madina, instead he expected free hand-outs (the constant buy order was set at 1 gold per 100 bushels). He didn't fund his army, nor issue it any orders (even though he was the Marshal) and he didn't actively seek out getting knights for the region, even when new nobles turned up.
I'm not overly sure why he wasn't just banned from the realm, but I guess this way was much more fun! :D
That's not entirely true. He had a buy order for 75/100 whenever Gornak traveled through the city--I think that's probably the highest buy price on the continent. I probably sold him 500 bushels over the past few months, at a total profit of 250 gold.
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I'm not overly sure why he wasn't just banned from the realm, but I guess this way was much more fun! :D
First of all, it's his property and no one is justified to take it from him(not even the goverment).
Second, it's not possible, you'd have to force suceed him, that was next on the list but it required one lord to change duchy, but he never replied to any letters.
Madina lives by a diferent philosphy than most realms carry, the goverment isn't the boss of any landowner, they just make sure everyone in the republic is safe, and in case of war, all landowners defend each other.
Any disputes or politics is solved on personal levels, rarely via the goverment, for she wields no such power over it's citizens.
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He can't be banned? Why not?
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Royal, I take it.
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He can't be banned? Why not?
The constitution says so. It's one thing Madina takes quite highly (I'd somehow forgotten about it in my last post). So game-mechanicly, he can be banned. But RP-wise, it doesn't make much sense in Madina.
Any Lord owns his land and anything to do with his land, he can do what he wants with it. Which is why my Lord sells his food for 50 gold per 100 bushels, even though everywhere around him is starving. It's basically a way of pushing power onto the Lords, making for some interesting situations where Lords of seemingly minor regions can hold the balance of power.
There's a lot of "I don't like what you're doing, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it" that goes on in Madina. Confuses some people at first, but you get used to it.
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Wow.
That is awesome.
I tried to get a real constitution going in Irombrozia for the longest time; never worked. The fact that ya'll have a functional system that you actually obey over game mechanics is really cool.
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Wow.
That is awesome.
I tried to get a real constitution going in Irombrozia for the longest time; never worked. The fact that ya'll have a functional system that you actually obey over game mechanics is really cool.
Well then, come on over and join the fun!
I do wish to disagree with the system beeing functional.
If Madina would be in danger of invasion, yes, the realm will function as another realm in a so called 'state of emergency'.
But in state of peace, any invasion(looting parties) executed by Madina will be one or several individual expiditions planned and carried out by individual landowners(local lords), with or without the support of the Governor.
Also the food distribution doesn't have a balance yet, Madina has weekly starvations just because in some way the Governor didn't manage to gather enough food every week to feed his citiezens, where Madinas landowners produce enough to feed Madina and even Export abroad.
But for the consitution to be a fun system, it requires good, fun and ambitious characters to rule over there properties.
So if you think your character fits with the above, join the fun!
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Wow, I see Allisons name mentioned a lot!
This whole war has been a rather interesting turn of events. Allison might make it out of this in good shape. Seeing Baal paraphrase Allison in his war declaration made me laugh. The best part is that Morek will get Aegir back without losing any men and Allison gets to go to Astrum and fight Caerwyn. The thing she has been trying to do for /years/
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The constitution says so. It's one thing Madina takes quite highly (I'd somehow forgotten about it in my last post). So game-mechanicly, he can be banned. But RP-wise, it doesn't make much sense in Madina.
Any Lord owns his land and anything to do with his land, he can do what he wants with it. Which is why my Lord sells his food for 50 gold per 100 bushels, even though everywhere around him is starving. It's basically a way of pushing power onto the Lords, making for some interesting situations where Lords of seemingly minor regions can hold the balance of power.
There's a lot of "I don't like what you're doing, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it" that goes on in Madina. Confuses some people at first, but you get used to it.
This sounds like an incredibly interesting concept if it regularly works out this way. It's like a Freestate. Now you just need to settle disputes through trial matches.
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This sounds like an incredibly interesting concept if it regularly works out this way. It's like a Freestate. Now you just need to settle disputes through trial matches.
It sounds to me like the original government of the US, in 1776. It didn't work too well.
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This sounds like an incredibly interesting concept if it regularly works out this way. It's like a Freestate. Now you just need to settle disputes through trial matches.
It worked better when my old char was still in Madina, "The tireless enforces of the grooming standard and Madina law!" :P
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It sounds to me like the original government of the US, in 1776. It didn't work too well.
and the US government is so great now. ;)
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It sounds to me like the original government of the US, in 1776. It didn't work too well.
You... you... you... Federalist!
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By the original government he means the one formed by the Articles of Confederation, not the Constitution. In case anyone got confused in the matter.
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Wow, I see Allisons name mentioned a lot!
This whole war has been a rather interesting turn of events. Allison might make it out of this in good shape. Seeing Baal paraphrase Allison in his war declaration made me laugh. The best part is that Morek will get Aegir back without losing any men and Allison gets to go to Astrum and fight Caerwyn. The thing she has been trying to do for /years/
Allison was the one who tried to spark this war anyways. But I do enjoy the thought of Allison joining Astrum! Realms with her tend to crumble :D
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You... you... you... Federalist!
Whoa there. Them's fighting words. :o
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It sounds to me like the original government of the US, in 1776. It didn't work too well.
You take that back! >:(
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You take that back! >:(
You mean you're not going to defend my right to say it? ;D
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But I do enjoy the thought of Allison joining Astrum! Realms with her tend to crumble :D
Knowing Dustin's character for a very long time, I have yet to see one realm that she has joined crumble.
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Does Entai count? :P
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You mean you're not going to defend my right to say it? ;D
+1
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Does Entai count? :P
Peaceful reunification. I guess we can thank Caerwyn for that.
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Peaceful reunification. I guess we can thank Caerwyn for that.
hey what about my extraordinary diplomatic efforts?
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"You mean you're not going to defend my right to say it? ;D"
+1
i concur.
genius statement :P
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Yes, I'm quite sure that Morek was "crumbling" when Allison led it and gained two more cities.
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hey what about my extraordinary diplomatic efforts?
Not to mention *my* brilliant idea... You never get credit for anything when you're dead.
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You get a nice statue, though. And maybe a national holiday named after you.
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Not to mention *my* brilliant idea... You never get credit for anything when you're dead.
I flagged that message and will do my best to see it implemented. I cannot wait for the tears to start flowing (hilarious irony for some, disgust and sadness for others).
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Sucks there is no feature in BM that tells you where your bloody statue is :P Exists only in RP
ps: oh you also get your name posted in the wiki page of your realm :)
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I flagged that message and will do my best to see it implemented. I cannot wait for the tears to start flowing (hilarious irony for some, disgust and sadness for others).
Remember to save it offline. Flagged messages still expire after 30 days.
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Peaceful reunification. I guess we can thank Caerwyn for that.
Or Allison herself. You shoulda seen the lies she spat about SA and Astrum when she was ruler of Entai.
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Allison had to give Caerwyn a little push. They seemed hesitant to want to go to war. It sounds like they wanted a war, but just needed some sort of justification to start it.
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Doesn't matter.
I don't think people in SA questioned her faith. Just her methods were questionable for many people.
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Or Allison herself. You shoulda seen the lies she spat about SA and Astrum when she was ruler of Entai.
Ah, I should have suspected Allison would have been involved; I don't think I've ever encountered a more cunning character.
The irony is that Allison's zeal to defend SA has brought about a temporary reconciliation with even her most staunch opponents in the Church and everyone (including Constantine) is convinced that Caerwyn's false accusations are the result of Caerwynian hatred and Thulsomian lies.
Although the fact that Caerwyn took the words of a noble who was known to be in conflict with the Church authorities as an authoritative source of information about SA's plans shows that there was already a great willingness to go to war.
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Oh yeah, we were kind of already on a war path and she just gave us the extra push, pretty much.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was some OOC discussion about what to say to Caerwyn in order for us to initiate a war. I'm fairly positive that the informants who told us the same thing had no connect in-game.
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Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was some OOC discussion about what to say to Caerwyn in order for us to initiate a war. I'm fairly positive that the informants who told us the same thing had no connect in-game.
We certainly think so. From what I've heard a bunch of random characters from different realms that no one in the Church actually knows anything about joined Caerwyn over a period of time, all with the same concocted story about SA's nefarious plans. I got the scoop on that story from someone in Caerwyn just prior to Rowan's death. While I can understand why people with no connection to SA would find it believable, it's laughable to anyone actually in the faith. Definitely something someone concocted. The coordination evident in how it was spread certainly suggests that it was not organized entirely IC. I mean, multiple players with families no one's ever heard of joined multiple different realms over a lengthy period of time, but all somehow coordinated stories, so they obviously were connected somehow. OOC is the only explanation that makes any sense...
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Whether or not the allegations about SA are true, it makes for exciting roleplay and rouses up players. Caerwyn was starting to get a little slow... Too much peace? Too much boredom!
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Whether or not the allegations about SA are true, it makes for exciting roleplay and rouses up players. Caerwyn was starting to get a little slow... Too much peace? Too much boredom!
Exactly what I was thinking. Dwilight needed a big conflict like this to spice things up.. I mean hell, it is BattleMaster ::)
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Though some rulers seem to be confused, believing they are actually playing BabbleMaster...
... HI-YOOOOOOOOO!!
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The idea that a secret society took over SA is from Allison ranting and raving some months back. The story had enough time to circulate and get switched aroound.
I am fairly sure that Glaumring and Malficar had a hand in spreading that story. Those two cover a lot of nobles in D'hara and Asylon.
I honestly thought Allison had put herself in the cooking pot with the secession. I had my outer regions rejoin Morek to buy myself time. That day or two after the secession of Aegir saw a LOT of letter traffic. Getting Caerwyn to declare war was my last and only hope. Somehow it worked. Here are the two letters I sent to Baal. They are from 24 hours prior to the war declaration.
Letter from Allison Kabrinski
(Personal message to Baal Zephon Beldragos)
Archon Baal,
When Sanguis Astroism was founded many of us realized that we were putting a lot of power into 1 mans hands. So a secret society was founded. Our goal was to get all of our members into key Ducal seats. We would control the church that way. The first war with Aquilegia was because the Duke of the city was part of our group and quit the Secret Society and wouldn't follow its commands.
The church isn't really a church. It is more of a guild in my opinion. At least it is run that way.
Dukes of Gelene, Eidulb, Libidizedd, Mimer, and Muspelheim are members. Along with the Lords of Well of Mimer, Frekes Deep, Caiyun and Donghai. Those 10 nobles are the ones that decide the fate of the church. They control most of the Elder positions within the church as well. It is a potent combination. They control most of the wealth of Sanguis Astroism and most of its armies.
The Secret Society is named the "Warders of the Faith" it was intentionally named similar to the Warders of the Temple so that if the name ever did surface we would have plausible deniability and we could pretend it didn't exist.
We were also responsible for the first Darfix Colony and I am confident that another member of the society will become the Duke of Darfix when the time comes.
The wars against Aquilegia, Thulsoma, Averoth and Raivan Empire were all planned and organized in the WoF. Our goal was to spread Sanguis Astroism all across Dwilight. We were doing it systematically. 1 realm at a time. Once a new realm was set up in Nifelheim, Libero Empire would have been next. Caerwyn after that.
Caerwyn started to do some saber rattling at the outset of the war against Averoth. Astrum pulled back all their troops and started to play nice. Now that they have had a chance to heavily fortify their regions they are back attacking Averoth. Morek weakened them and now Astrum can finish them off.
I wish you luck. As I said before there isn't anything that can be done to save me. I am going to hold out as long as I can. But there is still time to save yourselves.
Lady Allison Kabrinski
Grandmistress of Entai, Duchess of Aegir
Letter from Allison Kabrinski
Message sent to: Baal Zephon Beldragos
Archon,
For what it is worth the Astrumese mobile army is only about 7,000 combat strength. The rest of their massive CS is in militia and tied up in Gaston fighting monsters.
Lady Allison Kabrinski
Grandmistress of Entai, Duchess of Aegir
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he he he... just enough of a kernel of truth that they bought it hook, liner, and sinker. Nice one. I wonder what Baal the Betrayer will say when he sees Allison leading an Astrumese army into Caerwyn. :p
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The idea that a secret society took over SA is from Allison ranting and raving some months back. The story had enough time to circulate and get switched aroound.
I am fairly sure that Glaumring and Malficar had a hand in spreading that story. Those two cover a lot of nobles in D'hara and Asylon.
I honestly thought Allison had put herself in the cooking pot with the secession. I had my outer regions rejoin Morek to buy myself time. That day or two after the secession of Aegir saw a LOT of letter traffic. Getting Caerwyn to declare war was my last and only hope. Somehow it worked. Here are the two letters I sent to Baal. They are from 24 hours prior to the war declaration.
Letter from Allison Kabrinski
(Personal message to Baal Zephon Beldragos)
Archon Baal,
When Sanguis Astroism was founded many of us realized that we were putting a lot of power into 1 mans hands. So a secret society was founded. Our goal was to get all of our members into key Ducal seats. We would control the church that way. The first war with Aquilegia was because the Duke of the city was part of our group and quit the Secret Society and wouldn't follow its commands.
The church isn't really a church. It is more of a guild in my opinion. At least it is run that way.
Dukes of Gelene, Eidulb, Libidizedd, Mimer, and Muspelheim are members. Along with the Lords of Well of Mimer, Frekes Deep, Caiyun and Donghai. Those 10 nobles are the ones that decide the fate of the church. They control most of the Elder positions within the church as well. It is a potent combination. They control most of the wealth of Sanguis Astroism and most of its armies.
The Secret Society is named the "Warders of the Faith" it was intentionally named similar to the Warders of the Temple so that if the name ever did surface we would have plausible deniability and we could pretend it didn't exist.
We were also responsible for the first Darfix Colony and I am confident that another member of the society will become the Duke of Darfix when the time comes.
The wars against Aquilegia, Thulsoma, Averoth and Raivan Empire were all planned and organized in the WoF. Our goal was to spread Sanguis Astroism all across Dwilight. We were doing it systematically. 1 realm at a time. Once a new realm was set up in Nifelheim, Libero Empire would have been next. Caerwyn after that.
Caerwyn started to do some saber rattling at the outset of the war against Averoth. Astrum pulled back all their troops and started to play nice. Now that they have had a chance to heavily fortify their regions they are back attacking Averoth. Morek weakened them and now Astrum can finish them off.
I wish you luck. As I said before there isn't anything that can be done to save me. I am going to hold out as long as I can. But there is still time to save yourselves.
Lady Allison Kabrinski
Grandmistress of Entai, Duchess of Aegir
Letter from Allison Kabrinski
Message sent to: Baal Zephon Beldragos
Archon,
For what it is worth the Astrumese mobile army is only about 7,000 combat strength. The rest of their massive CS is in militia and tied up in Gaston fighting monsters.
Lady Allison Kabrinski
Grandmistress of Entai, Duchess of Aegir
My job is to stir the pot. I am just happy that all of you started fighting. Finally a chance for small retarded realms to pop up and the massive wall of boring stagnant huge mega realms to be broken apart. The western continent is and has been so stagnant compared to the north east. Perhaps this will help it become more dynamic and with more smaller realms vying for attention.
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My job is to stir the pot. I am just happy that all of you started fighting. Finally a chance for small retarded realms to pop up and the massive wall of boring stagnant huge mega realms to be broken apart. The western continent is and has been so stagnant compared to the north east. Perhaps this will help it become more dynamic and with more smaller realms vying for attention.
Stagnant? Or struggling to survive? D'Hara can't feed itself, so it's ambitions are to take and hold Maeotis to feed itself, and develop other agreements to do the same. Terran has a new colony. Madina is going to reclaim its rogue city.
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he he he... just enough of a kernel of truth that they bought it hook, liner, and sinker. Nice one. I wonder what Baal the Betrayer will say when he sees Allison leading an Astrumese army into Caerwyn. :p
As I said, we were already planning a sneak attack. It went like this:
1) The annual monster-hunt force would go "assist" Astrum but turn back at the last minute and watch Astrum get destroyed by the monsters.
2) Caerwyn breaks the federation and sends Wave 2 in which waited just behind the border.
3) Wave 3 of a lot larger force follows Wave 2.
4) Loot regions, cause havoc, etc.
It was taking far too long to rally the armies without them knowing what was going on. We know we have spies in Caerwyn so we couldn't outright tell everyone the plans. Allison's letter was just a better reason to dive into war sooner rather than later. We really aren't as stupid as you all think. We already knew that majority of Astrum's military was up in Gaston and her cities. We already had plenty of scout reports of the place. We just needed the TL's to get their asses in gear! So outright war was the easier way ;)
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I meant Caerwyn/Astrum, sorry wasn't talking about the south region.
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Yes, we definitely needed something to happen. Xinhai/Morek Empire was fun during the war against Raivan and Libero (sorry Aquilegia, you were at most a nuisance and a cassum bellum (correct me if I got that phrase wrong) for Libero and Raivan to declare war). Meanwhile in the west Astrum was twiddling its thumbs (other than the support in sieging Aegir).
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Today's gonna be another interesting day on Dwilight... I expect chatter in this topic to pick up shortly :)
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I get to play with one of Astrum's Marshals in my dungeons for a whole week! ;D One Marquis Jonus Snow.. funny cause I know him in RL and he's gonna be annoyed that he'll miss a whole week of activity :P
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and an excellent day of Roleplay is ruined by one person going into OOC. :'(
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and an excellent day of Roleplay is ruined by one person going into OOC. :'(
???
Would you please be a bit more...specific?
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Don't ask. Better not provoke a !@#$storm.
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Today's gonna be another interesting day on Dwilight... I expect chatter in this topic to pick up shortly :)
Perhaps it should be a new thread, instead of adding to this monolithic monstrosity.
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Eh... probably better to bury the whole discussion pre-emptively before the mods have to step in.
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What... just happened... anyways, it will be at least a few confusing weeks from now on in East Dwilight.
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Perhaps it should be a new thread, instead of adding to this monolithic monstrosity.
What, you think this is a large thread?
Oh man have you got a lot to learn, Rob. :)
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So...Giask...how many nobles actually seceeded?
And PeL...what's going on there?
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Eh... probably better to bury the whole discussion pre-emptively before the mods have to step in.
Screw that! This is a discussion forum! Anything should be up for discussion. I already have a bad rep so I don't care? Yeah so what happened with Giask? I wish it had been a city from Astrum though.. that would have made my.. year! :P 8)
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So...Giask...how many nobles actually seceeded?
And PeL...what's going on there?
I think you can see how many nobles on the Realm List page for Dwilight. It says 17 nobles there. :)
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Secession from PeL. What happened there? Details?
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Tim also paused his character (Queen Anaris). I hope my good old friend the Solari family takes up the throne! They should all make peace and help fund Caerwyn's war instead ::)
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Its all part of a plan thats been in motion for some while.
The fact I am annoyed is not, at who I think Sacha thinks I am mad at, but rather someone else for tipping that person off OOC and spoiling today's fun.
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The silence from PeL after what appears to be a huge political shift from the outside is.... uncanny.
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The silence from PeL after what appears to be a huge political shift from the outside is.... uncanny.
There was one major unexpected event (Tim's reaction and Alanna pausing) that shook things up, and the rest is still a little up in the air. Koli could probably explain stuff, but he's far, far too busy right now (grins).
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Don't worry Vellos, as soon as I know what's going on you are the first to hear ;)
And I rather don't want to talk about yesterday, as that was .... unexpected..
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There was one major unexpected event (Tim's reaction and Alanna pausing) that shook things up, and the rest is still a little up in the air. Koli could probably explain stuff, but he's far, far too busy right now (grins).
I'd like to know what that one unexpected event was? At least what is meant by Tim's reaction.
I know pretty much everything that was planned, but am really interested in what actually happened. Seeing as my character also tried to do exactly what just happened.
P.S. I certainly think it deserves a new thread. This has only been attempted what, 3 or 4 times now?
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I'd like to know what that one unexpected event was? At least what is meant by Tim's reaction.
Then get Tim to talk about it. I'm not going to, and I strongly suggest that no one besides Tim do either.
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"The Kingdom of Pian en Luries is no more. Our dreams of a Lurian Empire lie in ruins." - part of a statement of Pian en Luries
I would applaud this, for I have been part of the earlier succession of Giask, but it still doesn't explain a lot.
And it seems that some OOC-issues got involved in Pian's intern politics.
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And it seems that some OOC-issues got involved in Pian's intern politics.
The OOC issues were people who decided that there was no possible way the plot was IC. I can assure you that they are wrong.
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"The Kingdom of Pian en Luries is no more. Our dreams of a Lurian Empire lie in ruins." - part of a statement of Pian en Luries
"Our" being the operative word here. The Empire itself is quite a long way from being in ruins, I can assure you.
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You people are way, way too cryptic.
Somebody want to give some background?
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The OOC issues were people who decided that there was no possible way the plot was IC. I can assure you that they are wrong.
I know for sure that every plot against Queen Alanna while my character was in Pian en Luries was carried out purely IC. (This includes all 3 plots carried out, before the current one, because of course my character is no longer there.)
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You people are way, way too cryptic.
Somebody want to give some background?
First you must find the jade monkey before the next full moon.
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Alanna was the longest ruling character of all Dwilight. And in her past, many rebels have risen against her. Now they succeeded.
But what bugs me is that he send an OOC notification saying that Timothy didn't wanted to deal with the 'ooc-issues'. The fact alone that he paused Alanna is already a big question mark to me. Seems serious..
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Alanna was the longest ruling character of all Dwilight. And in her past, many rebels have risen against her. Now they succeeded.
But what bugs me is that he send an OOC notification saying that Timothy didn't wanted to deal with the 'ooc-issues'. The fact alone that he paused Alanna is already a big question mark to me. Seems serious..
Nah it is just me. Every time I go to another realm something happens. :P
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Alanna ruled for a long long time. That is something to respect. In that time rebellion has been pretty constant, which can only suggest a few things a general dislike of the way the realm was ruled, a massive grouping of power hungry nobles all looking for their chance to steal the reigns, or a OOC effort to remove Alanna. It appears that several of the council chose to believe it is all OOC. I would guess only those heavily involved in the rebellion would truly know if that is true, and no matter what the truth is, it would be unlikely to change anyone else's opinion.
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It appears that several of the council chose to believe it is all OOC.
I do not want to judge anyone, but allow me to notify that many people on Pian en Luries are a lot on IRC. That there might be OOC reasons, dislikes or whatever is therefore inevitable.
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There is a big difference between disliking a player due to interactions outside of the game, and deciding to bring that dislike into the game as OOC actions. Do you want to force characters to never act against another character, whenever the two players might have had disagreements, no matter how much IC justification there is for it? The few members of the rebellion I have experience with go to great lengths to separate IC and OOC, and I doubt they would let their personal opinions of another player influence the actions of their characters.
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Alanna ruled for a long long time. That is something to respect. In that time rebellion has been pretty constant, which can only suggest a few things: "a general dislike of the way the realm was ruled"
I'm telling you that since the time Alanna ruled 4 major efforts of rebellion were made against her. The 4th one is the current one that succeeded. My character was one of/the leader of the first 3 rebellions although was only identified as such in the third rebellious effort. All of the first 3 rebellions were IC rebellious efforts pertaining to the above, "general dislike of the way the realm was ruled".
I can't speak for the current rebellion, but I can for all of the others. Whether those who believe it is OOC, choose to believe me or not, can do so of their own accord, but I have no reason to lie. I'm already far from the realm, and no longer have any interaction with it.
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I do not want to judge anyone, but allow me to notify that many people on Pian en Luries are a lot on IRC. That there might be OOC reasons, dislikes or whatever is therefore inevitable.
Yeah, it's true. Tim and I were (and still are) friends, despite two of my characters having betrayed his characters. Some of the people involved with the "rebellion" I don't particularly get along with OOC.
And as one of the three most important people involved with the rebels, I can say definitively that Koli has plenty of IC reasons. Fulco had IC reasons. Amaury had extreme IC reasons. Most of the rest were following one of those three (sometimes more than one of those three, heh).
And, yeah, I'm angry at the OOC accusations, especially from people who should know better.
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I think the main shocker in this one was that for the first time, the rebellion was supported by all three Dukes. In the past, it was usually just one seditious Duke, riling up his duchy and eventually failing because the other two Dukes did not follow, and joined the loyalist side.
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I think the main shocker in this one was that for the first time, the rebellion was supported by all three Dukes. In the past, it was usually just one seditious Duke, riling up his duchy and eventually failing because the other two Dukes did not follow, and joined the loyalist side.
Well the third rebellion had 2 out of 3 Dukes, and was in planning for a very long time, as a worst-case precaution, but if it wasn't for a particular Amaury, it would have succeeded....
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This isnt/wasnt a rebellion. It is a Revolution ;) And it has been heavily IC organised.
But just to reiterate, the Empire is far from dead. Infact its doing better than ever.
After finding the Jade Monkey, you must offer it up to the Sapphire Owl before three suns have set...
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Technically, you weren't a Duke anymore by the time the rebellion went down. You had no duchy left to throw behind the rebellion, like the three Dukes in this one have. And the main reason for the failure of your rebellion lies with the rebels themselves... it wasn't a particularly well-planned or well-executed endeavor, you have to admit. Supporting known frauds like Mordaunt, incompetent leaders like Gwendolyn, terrible food management, falling for the same traps over and over during the civil war, leaving your capital open for an attack etc. all contributed to your downfall more than Amaury could. Hell, you could probably have gained his support if you'd been a little more subtle and clever about the whole thing.
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Technically, you weren't a Duke anymore by the time the rebellion went down. You had no duchy left to throw behind the rebellion, like the three Dukes in this one have. And the main reason for the failure of your rebellion lies with the rebels themselves... it wasn't a particularly well-planned or well-executed endeavor, you have to admit. Supporting known frauds like Mordaunt, incompetent leaders like Gwendolyn, terrible food management, falling for the same traps over and over during the civil war, leaving your capital open for an attack etc. all contributed to your downfall more than Amaury could. Hell, you could probably have gained his support if you'd been a little more subtle and clever about the whole thing.
It was very well planned. As far as well-executed goes, that is perhaps another situation altogether.
The original plan had been in place long before Brom lost his duchy, through the manipulation of the Queen. One of the main reasons things were a bit sloppy was because plans had to be rushed due to the Queen causing problems and usurping power from Brom and Loathin and their supporters. Those supporters were needed for a successful rebellion and reformation of Pian en Luries. The plan was never to have a real "rebellion" anyway. If it wasn't for some OOC reasons Brom would have never lost the duchy he held anyway, and everything would have succeeded the first time, with or without Amaury support. Though, as far as both Loathin and Brom could tell, Amaury was so unlikely to grant his support that it was never worth offering him to join us as he would instantly tell the Queen no doubt.
At any rate, that is all in the past, I'm just trying to clear up some things because my characters was one of the oldest of PeL before being kicked out. (And he was involved in everything secretly)
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Not being part of your rebellions this is just an outsiders opinion, but what it sounds like is you had a workable plan as long as certain assumptions and situations worked out. Now a WELL planned action would have either had steps to ensure those situations occurred, or well form contingencies to ensure the plan would still have the best chance of success.
If the Queen had reason and the ability to remove or limit those on whom your plan relied on, then to me that doesn't really sound like a great plan.
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............................ Boom! goes the dynamite.
I really like how the political landscape of Dwilight changed almost "overnight". I look forward to seeing what else happens in the south. Me being a Northerner I don't get to hear much about the south.
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One question though, are Luria Nova and Pian going to war each other like Giask and Pian..?
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The OOC issues were people who decided that there was no possible way the plot was IC. I can assure you that they are wrong.
I do feel the need to clarify something here.
Though I wrote my parting OOC message in haste and anger, I never intended to state that I believed the motives for the rebellion/secession/whatever you want to call it were OOC—merely that not a peep of them had reached Alanna's ears IC. The way I phrased it was definitely not carefully considered to ensure the clarity of that distinction, but truly, I did not mean to accuse anyone of doing things for OOC reasons.
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One question though, are Luria Nova and Pian going to war each other like Giask and Pian..?
Probably not. The secession was part of a plan to remove Alanna without having to fight a bloody rebellion in Askileon and get a new name as some thought that the very name of Pian en Luries was a problem. The powers more or less in control of both realms are working together, at least for the time being. I don't foresee them fighting, but stranger things in the game have happened.
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...and get a new name as some thought that the very name of Pian en Luries was a problem.
Meh. Even I never liked the name.
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I do feel the need to clarify something here.
Though I wrote my parting OOC message in haste and anger, I never intended to state that I believed the motives for the rebellion/secession/whatever you want to call it were OOC—merely that not a peep of them had reached Alanna's ears IC. The way I phrased it was definitely not carefully considered to ensure the clarity of that distinction, but truly, I did not mean to accuse anyone of doing things for OOC reasons.
That one was more aimed at Drystan, I think, who sent a rather nasty OOC letter to the rulers of Dwilight.
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I do feel the need to clarify something here.
Though I wrote my parting OOC message in haste and anger, I never intended to state that I believed the motives for the rebellion/secession/whatever you want to call it were OOC—merely that not a peep of them had reached Alanna's ears IC. The way I phrased it was definitely not carefully considered to ensure the clarity of that distinction, but truly, I did not mean to accuse anyone of doing things for OOC reasons.
Good to know. Unfortunately, that opinion was not shared by all.
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While Pian and Luria Nova are of course still a hot news item, more has happened in the meantime:
Secession (2 hours, 31 minutes ago)
The duchy of Candiels has seceded from Madina and formed a new realm called Aurvandil.
Too much messages, and I need some sleep.. see you all in the morning.
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Not being part of your rebellions this is just an outsiders opinion, but what it sounds like is you had a workable plan as long as certain assumptions and situations worked out. Now a WELL planned action would have either had steps to ensure those situations occurred, or well form contingencies to ensure the plan would still have the best chance of success.
If the Queen had reason and the ability to remove or limit those on whom your plan relied on, then to me that doesn't really sound like a great plan.
Well, if it was easy to pull off a rebellion without worrying about any changes in the plan, then of course it would have worked perfectly. We were trying to pull off a coup against one of the most paranoid rulers in the game.
Then again, it wasn't that our plan was bad, it was that I had a huge span of OOC inactivity which I couldn't help and it led to me losing my Ducal position which kind of ruined the planning. When your plan depends upon having 2 out of 3 Dukes in support, only having 1 is kind of a bummer. We almost made it work, but the span of 12 hours by a vote ousting me from my seat as Banker ruined the other part of our plan which was also used against us.
Oh well, fun times...
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While Pian and Luria Nova are of course still a hot news item, more has happened in the meantime:
Secession (2 hours, 31 minutes ago)
The duchy of Candiels has seceded from Madina and formed a new realm called Aurvandil.
Too much messages, and I need some sleep.. see you all in the morning.
Here is your answer for OOC references:
Letter from Mendicant Anhangar (1 hour, 39 minutes ago)
Message sent to the Rulers of Dwilight (15 recipients)
Greetings and good day, rulers of Dwilight.
I have seceded from Madina to form the new Kingdom of Aurvandil, Madina was a great and courteous home to me, and to my new subjects, but it is not a realm structured to truly thrive or work, and my duchy laboured hard to prop up greedy, profiteering lords who would rather see my people dead, than remotely risk any loss of profit. Madina is an entirely profit driven republic, and while I applaud the recent reforms of the republic, and the new cause and direction it has undertaken, I realise that Madina will never truly be able to focus its lords, or its nobles due to the restrictions and also freedoms granted to them, and our attempts to rebuild the realm from the hole it dug itself into, was forever thwarted by some of its lords.
Candiels suffered due to these lords and due to its obligations to Madina, and Madina, in turn, suffered from the strain of trying to control such a wide landmass, I have taken the like minded members of Madina, and they have joined me in my secession, to form a greater, freer realm, one of honour and chivalry, true to its principles, rather than one of profit of self serving nobles.
To the Grand Duchy of Fissoa, I hope to reach out and extend friendly relations to you, for we shall continue to see you as our brothers and friends.
To Barca, I hope that you will extend the same landmass agreements to us, that you did for my duchy whilst it was apart of Madina.
To the League of Free Nations, I was a big proponent of Madina joining your League, and I believe your cause to be just and honourable, and while Madina intended to support you, as realm like Madina, could never cohesively control its nobles and lords to a single unified purpose, while so many put personal profit and advancement ahead of the realm. We may have been able to march to your aid, but it would be a shadow of the army Madina is truly capable of.
To all other rulers, I would be obliged and honoured for the chance to speak with each of you in turn.
Mendicant Anhangar
Ruler of Aurvandil, Duke of Candiels
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I am just glad to see something finally happen in Madina's corner of the world again. Back when they periodically attacked Paisly, itw as interesting. Hopefully Auglardil, or whatever it's called, will provide some new political material.
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LOVE it , the huge map is just so much more interesting and dangerous with dozens of squabbling small realms, instead of huge realms cowing everyone into be nice to eachother, this is where the fun begins. Now hurry Caerwyn and Astrum, shatter and form 4 new realms. :P
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LOVE it , the huge map is just so much more interesting and dangerous with dozens of squabbling small realms, instead of huge realms cowing everyone into be nice to eachother, this is where the fun begins. Now hurry Caerwyn and Astrum, shatter and form 4 new realms. :P
Imagine if every Duchy did it :D
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Imagine if every Duchy did it :D
Then there would be one winner, the rogue forces :P
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I am just glad to see something finally happen in Madina's corner of the world again. Back when they periodically attacked Paisly, itw as interesting. Hopefully Auglardil, or whatever it's called, will provide some new political material.
Maybe some tension between Madina and Candiels, but it doesn't seem to effect us that much, besides that we might gain a trade partner. ;)
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some tension?
There will be a war and it won't last long...
It won't change much either, it just prevents Madina to anticipate in the war.
The strange thing is that the leader of Candiels was one of the prime anti SA people in Madina, so I do not really know what they achieved with this.
He must have been really greedy, just wants to feel like a monarch instead of a governor which is practically already the same in Madina....
Although i agree it adds up some fun.
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Funny. He apparently thinks Madina is greedy. Meh, really.
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It won't change much either, it just prevents Madina to anticipate in the war.
Wait, you were actually considering sending troops all the way north to fight Astrum? Everyone I talked thought that whole thing was some grandstanding joke. Or maybe Madina playing cheerleader from a safe distance. Do you really think you could have sent troops that far north, which would have required you to travel through realms that have forbidden passage of your troops, while your own realm was falling apart?
The strange thing is that the leader of Candiels was one of the prime anti SA people in Madina, so I do not really know what they achieved with this.
He must have been really greedy, just wants to feel like a monarch instead of a governor which is practically already the same in Madina....
"Senator of Candiels" doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "King of Auvrandil, Duke of Candiels". Or maybe he wants to start a new realm without all the Madinan inefficiency? From reading his secession speech, it sound like he really did not like the Madinan way of doing things.
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Madina, sounds extremely inefficient. I of course totally endorse this type of roleplayed realm, its awesome, but in reality it sounds more like modern capitalist Russia... Its good to finally see some action in the south. It looks like another realm could form in Madina... Perhaps a large group of Astroists and an army could set up shop in Madina? ::)
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Madina, sounds extremely inefficient. I of course totally endorse this type of roleplayed realm, its awesome, but in reality it sounds more like modern capitalist Russia... Its good to finally see some action in the south.
I can sort of see the attraction of it, and the lure of trying something new. But I don't see how it could be fun to be part of a realm that has really had all the troubles, problems, and lack of action that, at least from the outside, has plagued Madina.
It looks like another realm could form in Madina... Perhaps a large group of Astroists and an army could set up shop in Madina? ::)
Why not? We've already been accused of trying it.
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I think Madina was able to send forces up there, but not much and they would only loot isolated regions, or perhaps offer some assistance.
We did it before.... (Madina colonized Eibuld from which Cearwyn formed).
The question was if it really made a difference? :P
That doesn't really mather for Madina as they like looting and missed it alot :P
But now we don't have to cross the entire inner sea to burn some bodies and rape some helpless women while we steal there rum n ale.
Yeaj!
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Why not? We've already been accused of trying it.
I think there is an an Astroist who is a lord in that realm already.
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Yes, but his attitude about SA isn't much different from that of his countrymen from what I can see.
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Why not? We've already been accused of trying it.
See!! They're crazy! Planning to take over Madina now! Everyone nuke 'em!! :o :o :o
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Funny. He apparently thinks Madina is greedy. Meh, really.
I think he just thinks my character is greedy: "50 gold per 100 bushels of food! Why? Because I need a new golden seat, the old one got a smudge on it!"
But yeah, this is going to be a fairly quick war. The army had already geared up to retake Madina city, so we've got a massive army ready to swoop in and take their capital (since it's only a quick boat ride away...). Shame really, surrounding Madina with realms would certainly make for some interesting politics if we ever got back to wanting to expand a bit more.
Without nobles, Madina will probably just end up letting Candiels et al go rogue. But the "if we can't have it, they can't have it" attitude will probably take over, so we have to take it back from them :P
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The army had already geared up to retake Madina city, so we've got a massive army ready to swoop in and take their capital (since it's only a quick boat ride away...).
Forgive me if I'm skeptical of this.
Madina couldn't put together a massive army and launch an invasion with it if they were handed 15,000 CS on a platter. As it is, you are attempting to launch an invasion across what I assume to be a 12+ hour journey, and your entire realm has only 6,000 CS. I assume Candiels has some kind of walls.
You may win, but I have a hard time believing Madina possesses any massive army, or that it will defeat Auvrandil so easily. My main memories of Madina consist of them failing to garrison Paisly, attempts to use infiltrators to eliminate armies, and three successive whole-realm invasion attempts against Paisly in a row defeated by Terran's special tasks army.
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You may win, but I have a hard time believing Madina possesses any massive army
It's all relative, darling :P
If our previous armies were around 2k CS, then 6k CS is massive, right? :D
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Lets say in comparison with Barca Madina has a massive army. Then again, how should we verbalize the armies of Caerwyn or Astrum? Supreme?
And I must agree with Vellos, I don't think it will be easy for Madina to invade Candiels. However, with the right amount of pressure, you could make the realm fall to rogue forces. But that would also mean that you make it harder and harder for yourselves to hold on to the regions you have at the moment.
Personally, I hope you will settle for peace. I'd rather see the south colonized than allowing the Duchy of Candiels to be taken by monsters.
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However, with the right amount of pressure, you could make the realm fall to rogue forces. But that would also mean that you make it harder and harder for yourselves to hold on to the regions you have at the moment.
Absolutely; I agree that Madina can probably beat Candiels in a war. I just don't think it'll be as easy as the Madinans think.
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Lets say in comparison with Barca Madina has a massive army. Then again, how should we verbalize the armies of Caerwyn or Astrum? Supreme?
And I must agree with Vellos, I don't think it will be easy for Madina to invade Candiels. However, with the right amount of pressure, you could make the realm fall to rogue forces. But that would also mean that you make it harder and harder for yourselves to hold on to the regions you have at the moment.
Personally, I hope you will settle for peace. I'd rather see the south colonized than allowing the Duchy of Candiels to be taken by monsters.
The plan was to colonize it until these guys split off, they didn't made much friends by doing so, there are lots of other claim holders to the city.
I don't think there will be any other way.
Eventually i'd love to see the whole marocidens ocupied by small realms, would be fun!
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And yet you declare war on said small realm as soon as it is formed...
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And yet you declare war on said small realm as soon as it is formed...
no i didn't, my character did... remember there fictional characters? :P
my character doesn't care about all that!
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I was being sarcastic, of course it makes sense IC. It's cool that Pian en Luries is getting along with its secessionist realm.
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I was being sarcastic, of course it makes sense IC. It's cool that Pian en Luries is getting along with its secessionist realm.
The secession had nothing to do with hating the rest of the realm. It was all about a single ruler and her pet. (Please excuse the IC reference here)
Anyway, it makes perfect IC sense for them to get along. Although I'd rather have it reunite into one realm again.
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It's cool that Pian en Luries is getting along with its secessionist realm.
Well your be in for a few surprises within the next few months ;) Whats all this talk of Secessionist huh?
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What secessionist realm? Still, the southeast is kind of isolated in its own little world. I am skeptical about the global effect people in Askileon and Giask have, so I shall ask the guys in Astrum, Caerwyn, and Morek.
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What secessionist realm?
Aurvandil, in Candiels.
Personally, I think the formation of Aurvandil is a huge step toward civilizing the southwest. Now they just need to make peace with Madina, so they can start expanding up the mainland.
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Aurvandil, in Candiels.
Personally, I think the formation of Aurvandil is a huge step toward civilizing the southwest. Now they just need to make peace with Madina, so they can start expanding up the mainland.
I agree, i always wanted to see Twainville civilized, and all that precious food production to the west of it.
Perhaps now is the chance.
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Perhaps now is the chance.
Perhaps? No, not perhaps.
D'hara is resurgent and organized, Terran is strong and stable, a well-supported colony is in Rettleville, and Candiels is a capital. This is the closest we've ever come.
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Time to get a look at what's happening down in Barca first-hand :)
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I agree, i always wanted to see Twainville civilized, and all that precious food production to the west of it.
Perhaps now is the chance.
Only if you and Aurvandil can make peace...
...and fight off the monster hordes.
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Only if you and Aurvandil can make peace...
...and fight off the monster hordes.
Abbot can generally overcome his emotions by reasoning.
But as stated before, Aurvendil and Madina are both not able to fight each other nor help each other.
When one of the parties finally overcomes these problems they will probably make the other side sign 'there' treaty,
I had in mind a re-secession, but now well planned and in cooperation with each other instead of in an act of betrayal.
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I can say Fissoa might step in as a peace-keeping force. We see Aurvandil as our brethren, and Madina as our longtime friends. It is hard to see them both fight like that.
Or we could take over Madina-city and force you to become friends ::) Statistics show our army easily bests both realms :p (militia are included though :/)
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The war in the north is somewhat slow as it is winter. But it is fun to watch from the border with my new title as Earl of Walefishire. :P
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I can say Fissoa might step in as a peace-keeping force. We see Aurvandil as our brethren, and Madina as our longtime friends. It is hard to see them both fight like that.
Or we could take over Madina-city and force you to become friends ::) Statistics show our army easily bests both realms :p (militia are included though :/)
Would be interesting were you to take Madina city. Might even help Madina regaining there former lands if you are to trade the city for peace between Madina and Aurvandil. Though, I don't think it will be good for the relation between Fissoa and Madina.
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Would be interesting were you to take Madina city. Might even help Madina regaining there former lands if you are to trade the city for peace between Madina and Aurvandil. Though, I don't think it will be good for the relation between Fissoa and Madina.
hence why we haven't stepped in yet :) worst thing would be if we were seen as the agressor...
it's not sure yet, but very probable that we will intervene. Seeing that Aurvandil could be seen as a new Grand Duchy of sorts.
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hence why we haven't stepped in yet :) worst thing would be if we were seen as the agressor...
it's not sure yet, but very probable that we will intervene. Seeing that Aurvandil could be seen as a new Grand Duchy of sorts.
yeah why is it that fissoa sees aurvendel as brothers or even as similar?
All you have in common is perhaps possible size and the fact that your capital is on the edge of the two continents.
There is nothing else there is in common.
Fissoa is founded by Leon, Eldrond and some other fissoans, in full suport and coopertion with the republic, it's government and Abbot.
Aurvendel was founded by banned nobles from Librero Empire from a failed rebellion, they where received with open arms by Fionn and some others in Madina and where very quickly given the duchy of Candiels whom they eventually succeeded after a long periode of isolation( they did not help in fatmilak isle against monsters while other armies form other duchies did help them) and the revolt in Madina, without a single word on the subject before.
They planned it in secret and then seceeded creating a civil war between the republic and candiels.
Fissoa was founded under the complete opposite circumstances.
There is no religious similarities nor cultural(it's founders come from the exact opposite of the map), Fissoa is more centralized than Madina, but no where close to an absolute monarchy, last i checked fissoa was a sort of feudal monarchy with a powerful duke and a council of lords, no where near the philosophy of Aurvendel, more close to the fuadal republic in Madina.
I see no grounds except location of the realm that would create a feeling of brotherhood or what so ever.
Perhaps it's the philosophy to keep realms small.
That is not the sole philosophy on which aurvendel is founded, i am certain it is mostly founded because of the will to rule there own realm(as was clear in the libero rebbellion, quite certainly ooc friends).
I was quite surprised to see fissoa care so little about the civil war and de civilisation of Madina.
Bonds between Fissoa and Madina apparently have seriously dropped the last year, perhaps it was the isolationism of Governor Sage.
Abbot has always kept sending some letters on regular basis.
Lets pray to god there won't be a governor as boring as Sage anymore...
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A combination of prominent Nobles from Madina being in Aurvandil, Abbot not having a good reputation with his neighbours and lots of worrying news and letters coming from Madina have all done no good to Madina's reputation. That is what why Fissoa isn't so keen on giving support.
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A combination of prominent Nobles from Madina being in Aurvandil, Abbot not having a good reputation with his neighbours and lots of worrying news and letters coming from Madina have all done no good to Madina's reputation. That is what why Fissoa isn't so keen on giving support.
I know of that, but i think most of those worrying letters is bull, i read alot of mendicants propaganda, it was quite funny.
Sage, the one that spoke not even a single word with fissoa for a year, is one of those prominent nobles as well as fionn, who made the mistake in entrusting the rebels this duchy.
I like to hear that abbot is finally getting a bad reputation though :P
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Abbot seems to be driving Madina into something reminding the Fissoans of PeL (or the Tyrant Slade). We'd fight anyone slightly similar to PeL :)
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Abbot seems to be driving Madina into something reminding the Fissoans of PeL (or the Tyrant Slade). We'd fight anyone slightly similar to PeL :)
Care to explain?
I am not sure if you now but Abbot hasn't got any real direct power in the realm for years now.
Besides, Madina has a constitution which is held up great.
It can't technically change into a tyranny unless it dismisses it's constitution, which didn't happen if you where wondering.
Where did you get the idea from?
Didn't it acure to you that abbot is an alcoholic? isn't that worth the rumours?
I understand Abbot has lots of influence, always had, but right at this moment Fionn is the 'real' sole ruler of the realm, she apoints the goverment, lords and can decide on diplomacy, war, peace anything on her own.
This is currently the case because candiels was secede and Madina revolted.
So if anything, it was Mendicant him self who created this situation :P
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Well, I can only base my assumptions on what I hear from rumours and my Regent ;) If Phonos sends Abbot a letter explaining his distrust in him, saying that he thinks Abbot is leading Madina off a cliff, than Skyndarbau will believe Phonos :)
On another note, Skyndarbau might have found a cure against SA :D
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On another note, Skyndarbau might have found a cure against SA :D
Tell me more..
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Well, I can only base my assumptions on what I hear from rumours and my Regent ;) If Phonos sends Abbot a letter explaining his distrust in him, saying that he thinks Abbot is leading Madina off a cliff, than Skyndarbau will believe Phonos :)
On another note, Skyndarbau might have found a cure against SA :D
I geuss he didn't sent abbots replies? ;)
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The funny thing is...Aurvandil actually has more nobles than Madina!
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Wow! Bael is right holy!. What happened to Madina anyway? Are nobles leaving Madina?
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Wow! Bael is right holy!. What happened to Madina anyway? Are nobles leaving Madina?
Sort of, a lot of Madinan nobles were there just to found Aurvandil, so they left when it was founded. Plus nobles who changed allegiance because they were part of the seceded duchy. Then we've had a couple of people pause (including Tom's character! :O). So we're just generally down on nobles for a lot of reasons :(
Still nice and lively though! Unless you count the plague of undead, they're not that lively...
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If I (my character) wasn't already on the move, it would be nice to get one or two characters to come along with me to madina, then we could grab a region for ourselves :) As part of madina of course, but even so. But then again, nobles are in short supply everywhere except Averoth, so getting any to come along would be difficult...
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Tell me more..
Institutionalise religious freedom through a Church of Tolerance. He's having a hard time to find anyone willing to cooperate though :p
(Skyndarbau doesn't like religions.)
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Institutionalise religious freedom through a Church of Tolerance. He's having a hard time to find anyone willing to cooperate though :p
(Skyndarbau doesn't like religions.)
That is the least SMA thing that I've heard in a long time.
I assume you're joking, because nobody who cares about the SMA would actually propose such a thing.
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That would be a surefire way of losing the fragile peace with PeL/LN ;)
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Yeah I guess. ;)
Why wouldn't that be SMA? Because there's nothing similar found in medieval history? It's not going to happen anyways, but why wouldn't it be allowed? The government would control this "religion" to maintain a strong control over the people's beliefs, and politically disabling all other religions...
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Yeah I guess. ;)
Why wouldn't that be SMA? Because there's nothing similar found in medieval history? It's not going to happen anyways, but why wouldn't it be allowed? The government would control this "religion" to maintain a strong control over the people's beliefs, and politically disabling all other religions...
Because a religion means a faith or set of beliefs, that in some way explains the way the world around you works. It usually involves believing in specific supernatural entities.
"All religions are welcome" is not a religion. It's a political position.
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Because a religion means a faith or set of beliefs, that in some way explains the way the world around you works. It usually involves believing in specific supernatural entities.
"All religions are welcome" is not a religion. It's a political position.
Of course it is. Aren't many "religions" political cover-ups? Usually those without any power in a religion are the only pious ones...
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Of course it is. Aren't many "religions" political cover-ups? Usually those without any power in a religion are the only pious ones...
Yes, but not blatantly. You're talking about a religion that broadcasts its status as nothing more than a political tool to the world.
When your priests preach, what are they preaching? "Believe in all the Gods! They're all good!"
Or is it even simpler, just, "Obey your Fissoan masters! They tell you what is right!"
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Because a religion means a faith or set of beliefs, that in some way explains the way the world around you works. It usually involves believing in specific supernatural entities.
"All religions are welcome" is not a religion. It's a political position.
I think there was something in Hinduism... "All paths lead to the one Truth, though many sages call upon it by different names."
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I think there was something in Hinduism... "All paths lead to the one Truth, though many sages call upon it by different names."
But Hinduism doesn't tell you "Christianity is right, and Buddhism is right, and Zoroastrianism is right!"
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If Skyndarbau is really saying that, then obviously that's a self-undermining religion. But if the message is "Your beliefs are just named differently. All of them, and no, they don't contradict each other because those beliefs operate higher than human reasoning." then you're fine. "All beliefs are welcome" is different from "All religions are welcome", and it's not really clear which one Skyndarbau's talking about.
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If Skyndarbau is really saying that, then obviously that's a self-undermining religion. But if the message is "Your beliefs are just named differently. All of them, and no, they don't contradict each other because those beliefs operate higher than human reasoning." then you're fine. "All beliefs are welcome" is different from "All religions are welcome", and it's not really clear which one Skyndarbau's talking about.
I'm not sure Unitarian Universalism is really an appropriate religion for SMA either...that's the kind of thing that came in after the Enlightenment, IIRC.
It's one thing to say, "This is God, and all your Gods are just other names for Him." That's a real religion with tolerance for other religions.
It's completely different to say, "All your Gods are equally correct, and we don't say that any God is more correct than any other." That's not the kind of religion that belongs in SMA.
Basically, a BM religion has to tell people something more than "All religions are good!"
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It doesn't say that at all; actually it would stay far away from making statements on any religion. This institution would only say "you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't bring it up in a political discussion", or "you can believe anything you want, as long as you let other people do the same"
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It doesn't say that at all; actually it would stay far away from making statements on any religion. This institution would only say "you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't bring it up in a political discussion", or "you can believe anything you want, as long as you let other people do the same"
Sounds like post-enlightenment freedom ideologies to me.
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Sounds like post-enlightenment freedom ideologies to me.
What about the Romans? They didn't care if foreign religions constructed temples to weird gods in Rome. But they _did_ care if the Emperor followed a strange god, because he had power and influence...
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What about the Romans? They didn't care if foreign religions constructed temples to weird gods in Rome. But they _did_ care if the Emperor followed a strange god, because he had power and influence...
But THAT IS NOT THEIR RELIGION.
Their religion was worshiping Jove, and Juno, and all the other, y'know, Roman Gods.
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But THAT IS NOT THEIR RELIGION.
Their religion was worshiping Jove, and Juno, and all the other, y'know, Roman Gods.
No. Roman belief system accepted all the other gods as valid. Standard Roman practice when taking over new land would be to attempt to bribe the main local deities by offering to build a new shrine or temple in Rome and given them many new offerings and followers. You were expected to acknowledge all the gods at appropriate moments, but many people only had special devotion to one god or goddess beyond the rituals you had to perform as part of your day. (I had a class that spent about half the semester on religion in Rome and Greece, and quite enjoyed reading all the religious sections in detail).
This is beside the point, however. The Romans are not Medieval Europe, and it has been repeatedly said that "the Romans did it!" is not a valid way of supporting something in Battlemaster.
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I think the main problem is what the hell are you going to preach to the peasants. "All beliefs are ok just don't mention it." Religion was a way of life for the peasants, a way of keeping them docile. Religions need simple messags to preach to the masses.
Promoting free beliefs is also a huge contradiction with the "You are commoners and we are nobles." idea. Actually it seems like Skynderbau doesn't like that idea much anyway :P
And, medieval europe =/= roman empire
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I think the main problem is what the hell are you going to preach to the peasants. "All beliefs are ok just don't mention it." Religion was a way of life for the peasants, a way of keeping them docile. Religions need simple messags to preach to the masses.
Promoting free beliefs is also a huge contradiction with the "You are commoners and we are nobles." idea. Actually it seems like Skynderbau doesn't like that idea much anyway :P
And, medieval europe =/= roman empire
Haha :) Well Skyndarbau is totally against "Nobles are genetically superior". He agrees that nobles are far above any common man, and expects them to follow his lead, but he also believes power comes with responsability. I know that there was a lot of buzz on the people demanding the same rights for adventurers and all, but Skyndarbau is not one of those nobles. Shin Shenron kicked Skyndarbau's dog, and he doesn't like it at all ;)
And of course Medieval Europe does not equal Roman times, but any educated man must sure have heard of some of their ways?
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And for that matter: who says Skyndarbau is no direct decendant from a family existing ever since the Battlemaster equivalent of Roman times? 8)
and: many things in Battlemaster seem inspired by Antiquity. Latin character names are everywhere...
(interesting discussion though)
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Isn't the whole "acknowledging the local deities and leaving it at that" basically the default "Pagan and local folklore" religion?
I mean what/how are you converting them? If you preach "Just worship whatever you want" then why/how on earth are they "converting"? How do you convert someone without changing their beliefs?
Remember that no one in BM is truly atheist (although some may care little about religion), so in reality your "worship your private gods and don't speak about it to anyone else" idea is essentially practiced by default by a majority of nobles and peasants in the game.
I think that it is possible to have a "tolerance" religion in BM and for it to be SMA however the point of player-made religion is that it has something different to offer nobles than the ordinary paganism.
Be creative: perhaps the main deity of your religion is the god of order, rulers and authority. Every ruler secular, religious and divine (even other deities) is in power only by his will. You could preach that it is the duty of your followers to respect, acknowledge and follow their regional/family/personal rulers, religions and gods because they were put in place by your ruling deity; however you require converts to acknowledge that the authority of these other deities comes directly from your god, and to worship him as well.
Of course this is just an idea; I'm just demonstrating that there are a myriad of interesting ways you can do this. However I think that just to create a religion of not caring about religion is pointless and boring; doing nothing to enrich the game, especially when a religion is something that can add so much interesting rp.
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What about the Romans? They didn't care if foreign religions constructed temples to weird gods in Rome. But they _did_ care if the Emperor followed a strange god, because he had power and influence...
This is stupid.
Romans regularly persecuted at least two faiths (Druids, Judaism/Christianity).
Also, Roman culture accepted other religions. And, yes, Roman religion was syncretistic, but syncretism is not the same as enlightenment tolerance.
Syncretism is not theological relativism; it is a very broad category for revelation. Roman religion was highly syncretistic. It was not particularly liberalized, and it was a state religion which all persons where expected to follow (imperial cult being a particularly interesting study), hence the persecution of Jews and Christians even prior to political militancy.
A Church of Tolerance is completely non SMA and has no business being in Dwilight. Frankly, I'd toss that one to the Titans if I ever noticed it in the list of religions. And I'd be sure to declare it evil in Triunism.
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Of course Triunism would declare it evil, perhaps any religion should :)
To clarify: I have no intentions of founding a Church of Tolerance. I think it is an interesting thought though, specifically because of the SMA regulations. I also agree that such a "religion" might be boring, though that all depents on it's followers, really.
The thing is that many religions seem to mainly cover one purpose: to keep enemy religions out. This Church might be particularily good at that :)
And I'm not responding to Vellos because he uses too many difficult words ;D
Could a Dev or someone with the needed authority provide judgement wether this would be violating any rules or not? I don't want this to litter the whole Dwilight thread...
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On a side note dosn't the Eleryonism religion acknowledge the validity of other faiths?
Perhaps I'm recalling it incorrectly but I seem to remember somthing to that extent when we tried to contact them during our brief mission into Giask.
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Could a Dev or someone with the needed authority provide judgement wether this would be violating any rules or not? I don't want this to litter the whole Dwilight thread...
Am I not devly enough for you?
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On a side note dosn't the Eleryonism religion acknowledge the validity of other faiths?
Perhaps I'm recalling it incorrectly but I seem to remember somthing to that extent when we tried to contact them during our brief mission into Giask.
Acknowledging the validity of other faiths is a bit borderline, but not necessarily bad.
Not declaring any specific beliefs of your own makes you not a religion.
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Am I not devly enough for you?
Sorry, Anaris, I meant no disrespect. I would just like someone not involved in this discussion to Speak From The Heavens. You know, like only Devs can :)
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Sorry, Anaris, I meant no disrespect. I would just like someone not involved in this discussion to Speak From The Heavens. You know, like only Devs can :)
Dude... Anaris IS a Dev.
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I think the south western nations of Dwilight have been more tolerable of religions than the north because of lack of nobles and having to be more open to different ideas without it being a massive realistic medieval atmosphere. More nobles probably would have made our regions more homogenous like Caerwyn and Morek etc.
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While I am in no way "official", I'll toss in my two cents. This "Church of Tolerance" sounds a lot more like guild or knightly order than a religion. Religions are for the worship of a particular god/power, or pantheon of gods/powers. They are not for the formalization of a particular public policy or political agenda. Yes, religions often espouse public policy, and routinely have political agendas. But they at least profess a core belief in a higher power. You can't have a religion with a core belief of "All religions are good". Your core belief is "This is god". If it's not, then you're not a religion.
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Dude... Anaris IS a Dev.
Dude... I know. I wanted a Dev not already involved in this matter to have a say... ::)
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While I am in no way "official", I'll toss in my two cents. This "Church of Tolerance" sounds a lot more like guild or knightly order than a religion. Religions are for the worship of a particular god/power, or pantheon of gods/powers. They are not for the formalization of a particular public policy or political agenda. Yes, religions often espouse public policy, and routinely have political agendas. But they at least profess a core belief in a higher power. You can't have a religion with a core belief of "All religions are good". Your core belief is "This is god". If it's not, then you're not a religion.
Mm. I'd say more that a religion has to have a set of beliefs about the supernatural. Whether they have a god or gods they worship specifically is not necessary. I could see a religion, for instance, based on the Norse religion without the gods, merely a religion in opposition to the Jotun and what not.
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So, there's two more devs: Indirik and Bedwyr.
Satisfied? A Church of Tolerance, or any empty religion, or, frankly, IMHO, any religion founded exclusively to bump up peasant conversion rates to keep SA out, doesn't have a place in SMA.
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Anti-Sanguis Astroism would work though, if that's what your main concern is. Heck, I think you could even get away with calling it Anti-Sanguis Astroism (Protestantism really does mean what it sounds like you know...)
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Anti-Sanguis Astroism would work though, if that's what your main concern is. Heck, I think you could even get away with calling it Anti-Sanguis Astroism (Protestantism really does mean what it sounds like you know...)
Touché :)
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Anti-Sanguis Astroism would work though, if that's what your main concern is. Heck, I think you could even get away with calling it Anti-Sanguis Astroism (Protestantism really does mean what it sounds like you know...)
If by that you mean that you hold the influence of the Blood Stars to be evil, then yes. A religion that says "Sanguis Astroism is evil because they're totally taking over the continent!" would not be a good plan. Now, you could, I suppose, have a Balance based religion that thought Sanguis Astroism was upsetting the balance of the world, but religion = theological first, political second.
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Aw, it doesn't have to be that non-ambiguous you know. I mean, that King Henry guy did split off the Anglican Church so he could have a divorce...
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Mm. I'd say more that a religion has to have a set of beliefs about the supernatural. Whether they have a god or gods they worship specifically is not necessary. I could see a religion, for instance, based on the Norse religion without the gods, merely a religion in opposition to the Jotun and what not.
There is a difference between an empty religion and a tolerant religion.
I could imagine a Church of Tolerance with these core beliefs, for example:
1. There are a multitude of Gods.
2. Here are a few: a., b., c., etc...
3. If you encounter a people who believe in a god other than yours, here is a test to find out if the god is real: step 1, step 2, step 3.
4. If the god is real, you have the obligation to worship him equally and not to hurt these people, for hurting them is hurting a God.
How would that not be SMA?
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Aw, it doesn't have to be that non-ambiguous you know. I mean, that King Henry guy did split off the Anglican Church so he could have a divorce...
The Anglican Church had and still has an incredibly detailed set of theological beliefs. There can be political infighting within Churches, but you cannot have a church without some form of theology.
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The Greeks had a sort of similar idea. Although they had their pantheon of assorted deities, they still made provisions to a god that they hadn't discovered so that they wouldn't risk incurring its wrath.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_God
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There is a difference between an empty religion and a tolerant religion.
I could imagine a Church of Tolerance with these core beliefs, for example:
1. There are a multitude of Gods.
2. Here are a few: a., b., c., etc...
3. If you encounter a people who believe in a god other than yours, here is a test to find out if the god is real: step 1, step 2, step 3.
4. If the god is real, you have the obligation to worship him equally and not to hurt these people, for hurting them is hurting a God.
How would that not be SMA?
That could work, provided that, if the "god" "Fails the test," it is identified as "not-god" or a "false god."
Though, honestly, while that could work, I still think it's a waste of the religion feature.
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Imagine if one day I logged onto Bm and I won the entire game? ::)
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Imagine if one day I logged onto Bm and I won the entire game? ::)
Then I'd want you to give Tom his body and soul back.
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Imagine if one day I logged onto Bm and I won the entire game? ::)
now that wouldn't be very nice :(
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Morek and Astrum are invading Averoth. I know, it's not exactly exciting, but it's a necessary bit of housekeeping that has been put off too long.
I feel compelled to ask... is this one of the largest assemblages of forces ever seen in this part of Dwilight? I don't know much about the history of actual battle details in this part of the world.
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Yes, it will be the biggest battle Dwilight has ever seen. No previous battle on Dwilight will even come close. Its going to be a 50-55,000 CS battle in Valkyrja. Unfortunately for Averoth they are on the bad side of 4-1 odds and SA is infantry heavy with at least 75 siege engines.
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I thought so. I can't believe the size of the combined armies. :o I almost feel sorry for Averoth.
Almost.
I can post some general statistics about numbers of men and CS, if people are interested (and if it's allowed).
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As long as you share the battle report for all to see :)
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Scout reports show 42,000 vs 11,000.
Those numbers will change as Averoth does some emergency drafting and not /all/ of the attackers will make it to the assault.
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With such odds, I almost want to cheer for Averoth.
Almost.
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Just in case someone didn't see it in another thread, someone posted the report on the wiki:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/index.php?title=Siege_of_Valkyrja&rcid=151511
Total:
55 attackers (2160 Inf, 590 Arch, 39 Cav, 149 SF)
46 defenders (736 Inf, 194 MI, 70 Arch, 206 Cav)
Total combat strengths: 31340 vs. 15943
Averoth did indeed do some last-minute emergency draft/militia/recruit. And some troops, notably the Libero Empire, did not participate in the initial assault. Due to the commendable efforts of Grandmaster Bustoarsenzio, things went exceedingly well. :) I can hardly believe we had 72 siege engines at the walls. Only a few units had "slightly overcrowded siege engines", and the fortifications were breached in a single round.
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I took an educated guess and said 75 SE before the battle. I am glad we had as many as we did.
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Finally our years of out of game planning around the table at the Sanguis Astroist clubhouse has paid off!!! I called Tom earlier to write a code that would weaken the walls in Averoth... I have yet to hear any thanks from anyone... 8)
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Moderator Moment:
That's enough of the back and forth insults. Keep it polite, or take it somewhere else.
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I've removed the obvious crap. Please refrain from posting more of it.
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I've removed the obvious crap. Please refrain from posting more of it.
Thanks! 8)
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I've even decided to quit this threat and most of the forum because there are so many arguments versus conversations. Everyone hates on the enenmy, blah blah, blah... no wonder Tom never wanted something like this.
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I've even decided to quit this threat and most of the forum because there are so many arguments versus conversations. Everyone hates on the enenmy, blah blah, blah... no wonder Tom never wanted something like this.
-84? :p
Haters will hate man ...
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-84? :p
Haters will hate man ...
He is right, even thou he is part of that him self.
Still a Forum allows us to choose not to partake in certain discussions, so i do not believe the forum is a failure in anyway.
I think sometimes some discussions can be fun or constructive.
But indeed, usually there just full of inciteful posts, posted out of some sort of weird emotional rage. (weird in the sense that this is about fictional realms...)
I am not sure if that will ever be over, nor if our moderators should put so much work into keeping the forums fun.
I think most people that post constructive messages are usually well able enough to know how to emotionally control them selves.
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He is right, even thou he is part of that him self.
Still a Forum allows us to choose not to partake in certain discussions, so i do not believe the forum is a failure in anyway.
I think sometimes some discussions can be fun or constructive.
But indeed, usually there just full of inciteful posts, posted out of some sort of weird emotional rage. (weird in the sense that this is about fictional realms...)
I am not sure if that will ever be over, nor if our moderators should put so much work into keeping the forums fun.
I think most people that post constructive messages are usually well able enough to know how to emotionally control them selves.
I'm considered a hater? !@#$, I'll try working on that.
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No, "He" was referencing DoctorHarte.
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No, "He" was referencing DoctorHarte.
What are you implying with "he"? :P
Your questioning my manhood, boy?
I'll show you some!
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What are you implying with "he"? :P
Your questioning my manhood, boy?
I'll show you some!
well, the rose... ;)
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well, the rose... ;)
haha, you silly, you got me there! ;)
waves his little cute purse around
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haha, you silly, you got me there! ;)
waves his little cute purse around
If you interpret 'purse' as weird synonime for "manhood", it all makes sense!
...in a disturbing way :o
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What are you implying with "he"? :P
Your questioning my manhood, boy?
I'll show you some!
No. Grammar, fools!
"He" was referencing DoctorHarte!
That is, in the original post
He is right, even thou he is part of that him self.
The referent of Nosferatus' "He" is DoctorHarte, not you Shizzle.
And, Nosferatus, the quotes around "He" was quoting your usage of "he" in reference to DoctorHarte, not a remark about you.
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Btw, I changed my username to Shizzle. Seems more user friendly than Skyndarbau, and using a character name seemed wrong.
Don't ask me why I took Shizzle :p
(sorry for going off-topic, but I'm not the only one here ;) )
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In a valiant attempt to get back on-topic...
Where has everyone in Fissoa gone? I've traveled through have the regions and seen nothing but monsters and undead. Good thing too, because they destroyed my unit, and I have 400 gold on me. But still, I'm trying to buy some food from what is normally a good source.
Is all the adventurers leaving really that big of a problem? Or is there something else going on?
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In a valiant attempt to get back on-topic...
Where has everyone in Fissoa gone? I've traveled through have the regions and seen nothing but monsters and undead. Good thing too, because they destroyed my unit, and I have 400 gold on me. But still, I'm trying to buy some food from what is normally a good source.
Is all the adventurers leaving really that big of a problem? Or is there something else going on?
You must be playing Golruk, then?
Well, Skyndarbau is no longer Banker, so Lord Raych will have to do. I haven't seen or heard anything from him though.
The Privateers are assembled in Mangai and Kamade, to face the monsters soon. And Skyndarbau is on trial for 'peasant-loving', after demands for basic rights for peasants (such as property). The Advies might rebel, or just leave Fissoa, seeing that the Judge said that commoners have no rights whatsoever. A referendum asking 'Should commoners have rights' is being held, and Skyndarbau doesn't like it one bit ;)
All in all, this is the biggest event in a while. Most nobles seem to sit back quiet though, which is a shame.
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Well, Skyndarbau is no longer Banker, so Lord Raych will have to do. I haven't seen or heard anything from him though.
The Privateers are assembled in Mangai and Kamade, to face the monsters soon. And Skyndarbau is on trial for 'peasant-loving', after demands for basic rights for peasants (such as property). The Advies might rebel, or just leave Fissoa, seeing that the Judge said that commoners have no rights whatsoever. A referendum asking 'Should commoners have rights' is being held, and Skyndarbau doesn't like it one bit ;)
It seems to me that one of the fundamental problems in such cases is differing definitions of what it means to "have rights."
My guess would be that in this case, the Judge looks on "having rights" as meaning that they are fundamentally on some sort of equal level with nobles, and that they inherently deserve something that nobles must acknowledge or be in the wrong.
On the other hand, the other side, I suspect, looks on it as meaning that commoners are not something you should just kick around and abuse however you want, and that this should be enshrined in law.
In my view, the most appropriate way to define it is to say that commoners do not have rights, as such: but there should be protections in the law against persecuting them for no reason. This is something that the nobility do for them because it makes sense, not because the commoners have an inherent right to it.
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Well, yes that makes sense. :)
Only thing is that Skyndarbau's guildhall in the Judges (newly) assigned region has been torn down, and a case of 'stealing' money from a guild member while he was in jail (for no apparent reason). That's why he'd like at least some rights to be officially declared. The right of property, for instance, or the right to appeal in court. And to a further extent, the right for a noble to be free of speech, as Skyndarbau will most likely be persecuted for his different beliefs.
The main problem is not the discussion though, imho that's just IC. The thing is that none of the other nobles seem to care or participate. Except for the Regent, but his call for rights for commoners is disregarded by said Judge.
Well, I don't want to go to far on about it, because mixing IC and OOC might occur, and I don't want that. The grudge is between Skyndarbau and Shin Shenron, not between me and whoever Shenron's player is.
On a side note: is the Judge generally seen as someone who creates laws, or someone who forces people to follow them? Because it's the freshly chosen judge's new law system that's causing Skyndarbau to go in uproar...
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See, I think the problem is you're still talking in terms of "rights for commoners," when it's been explicitly made clear on numerous occasions that commoners have no rights.
If you talk about them as "protections under law," that's something fundamentally different, even though it may have the same practical effect.
So, under this interpretation, commoners do not have the right to their own property. However, they can be protected from having it stolen from them by nobles for no reason, with no compensation.
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Aha, I see. Well, I confused your previous post for a personal opinion. So the word "right" is wrong ;)
I'll refrain from using the word then, or implying it :)
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On a side note: is the Judge generally seen as someone who creates laws, or someone who forces people to follow them? Because it's the freshly chosen judge's new law system that's causing Skyndarbau to go in uproar...
Depends on the realm. I have been on both sides of things. I have played a judge that declared their own laws. I have also played nobles that attacked judges for creating their own laws. It really depends on the judge's power, and what the other nobles are willing to put up with. Also, it can depend on the law being passed. Laws that people don't like will be met with much more resistance, obviously.
Some realms try to deal with this through constitutions, or other such bodies of rules and procedures, with varying levels of success.
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Aha. Wow, I must say this forum is really broadening my views on things. I suppose my view on judges is too modern then: nowadays Judges can't pass laws, parliament does.
Though I recall (Late-)Medieval France (or early-modern) to be having parliaments, so I suppose their judges had no legislative powers either?
Personally, I think it's wrong a single person can decide what's good an what's wrong. That doesn't make it necessarily 'un-medieval' though ;)
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Aha. Wow, I must say this forum is really broadening my views on things. I suppose my view on judges is too modern then: nowadays Judges can't pass laws, parliament does.
Though I recall (Late-)Medieval France (or early-modern) to be having parliaments, so I suppose their judges had no legislative powers either?
Personally, I think it's wrong a single person can decide what's good an what's wrong. That doesn't make it necessarily 'un-medieval' though ;)
Even in modern states, the authority of the Judiciary can vary. Here in the UK judges can only interpret laws, not change them, but in the USA their "Constitutional Court" has the ability to overturn legislation deemed to contradict the constitution.
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Well, yes. But then again, the Constitutional Court doesn't really apply for private persons, does it? It's function is more to protect the state against ... democracy :P
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Well, yes. But then again, the Constitutional Court doesn't really apply for private persons, does it? It's function is more to protect the state against ... democracy :P
Considering an important part of the Constitution is the "Bill of Rights", which details the civil rights of private persons, and that part of the role of the Constitutional Court is to ensure that no government law infringes upon these Constitutional Rights; I would say that the Constitutional Court most certainly applies for private persons.
Of course it primarily functions, as you say, as a way to preserve the democratic system of the United States. However it also functions as a guardian of the civil liberties of each individual US citizen.
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Which is all very academic.
The practical issue here is, the nobles of Fissoa have been unable to come to grips with the fact that they are no longer on an old, settled island like Atamara. As they stab, imprison, rob and mistreat the advies in the realm while debating their right to do so, the advies have all simply wandered off to safer areas, leaving Fissoa to the mercy of the monster hordes.
The relationship between nobles and others in real history evolved over time due to circumstances in the world. Fissoans haven't learned this yet.
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I don't get people who mistreat advies on Dwilight for no reason. Seriously, just because they aren't nobles doesn't mean you treat them like !@#$. Soldiers aren't noble, and you don't mistreat them without a damn good reason either.
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Matt, this is a classic case of only giving your side of the story. He didn't mention the fact that the adventurer was rude to a noble, who arrested him, and then rude to the judge. The judge confiscated his gold, and when released he had this "Verminator" guild member, who happened to be a noble, confront the judge for his actions. "For no apparent reason" is Shizzle's way of saying "the adventurer pissed off the wrong noble, and paid for it".
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Ah. Fair enough. My point still stands, though, as I do know people who piss off advies for no reason on Dwilight.
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Matt, this is a classic case of only giving your side of the story. He didn't mention the fact that the adventurer was rude to a noble, who arrested him, and then rude to the judge. The judge confiscated his gold, and when released he had this "Verminator" guild member, who happened to be a noble, confront the judge for his actions. "For no apparent reason" is Shizzle's way of saying "the adventurer pissed off the wrong noble, and paid for it".
That is completely incorrect.
The advy ("Anders") challenged another advy to a duel. After the duel, the Lord of the region threw Anders in prison without saying anything. The judge took the gold and released him, again without any communication. (All of this occurred while I was in bed sleeping; I woke up and found I had been arrested, rob, and released without a word of explanation. )
Anders complained loudly in the guild; other advies shared their outrage and the Noble who runs the Guild took it upon himself to complain to the Judge.
The Noble who did the arresting apparently said it was because the advy "Marrow", who Anders challenged, was his "half-brother" or something, and it annoyed him. I have not heard any claims otherwise.
You may be basing your version on IC info you got from in-realm discussion.
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wth? I thought you could not claim an adventurer to be your half brother in SMA?
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Hi everyone. I play Shin. My side of the story is that a lord contacted Shin and asked the commoner to be punished for insulting him (the lord didn't specify why.) Being a noble bigot, Shin did not talk to the commoner or even ask for his side of the story: simply taking the lords request as grounds for punishment which conveniently translated to Shin's mind as "take his gold."
After Skynderbau announced he wanted "rights" for commoners with the support of the ruler, Shin went into rage and put laws in aimed to persecute anyone who goes for commoner rights. I suspect if other nobles hadn't used the word rights then Shin wouldn't be so harsh. However now it can't be reversed because Shin now views many of the nobles to be distrusted for their "dangerous" views.
Personally I feel sorry for the guy who plays the adventurer..... I'm just trying to play my character a harsh and conservative, politican: and trying to be serious about it... :-\
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Personally I feel sorry for the guy who plays the adventurer..... I'm just trying to play my character a harsh and conservative, politican: and trying to be serious about it... :-\
don't worry - this is the first time I've found playing an advy to be genuinely interesting. I'm glad to see every one has been able to keep it IC, and to let their chars react like they normally would. Gold isn't so hard to collect with so many beasts around.
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What about these scribes that nobles keep blaming, berating, and beating? If you give adventurers rights, why shouldn't you give these scribes rights? I would imagine these people to be learned men having the ability to read and write. Much more useful than blundering adventurers.
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perhaps it's more fun to role play a sort of permission to venture for commoners.
I mean they should actually work on the land, in reality if you give these commoners right you actually reward people to run off from the fields.
the effect should be trained production or even population, i am not sure if a game mechanic can exist like that.
by role playing permissions you can justify a guild, they have to buy the permission or swear a new sort of oath for example that binds them to a certain lord or task.
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Hi everyone. I play Shin. My side of the story is that a lord contacted Shin and asked the commoner to be punished for insulting him (the lord didn't specify why.) Being a noble bigot, Shin did not talk to the commoner or even ask for his side of the story: simply taking the lords request as grounds for punishment which conveniently translated to Shin's mind as "take his gold."
After Skynderbau announced he wanted "rights" for commoners with the support of the ruler, Shin went into rage and put laws in aimed to persecute anyone who goes for commoner rights. I suspect if other nobles hadn't used the word rights then Shin wouldn't be so harsh. However now it can't be reversed because Shin now views many of the nobles to be distrusted for their "dangerous" views.
Personally I feel sorry for the guy who plays the adventurer..... I'm just trying to play my character a harsh and conservative, politican: and trying to be serious about it... :-\
:) that's okay man! It's bringing Fissoa alive, for once :P
Your writing is impressive by the way. I wasn't joking when Skyndarbau said he didn't understand the word 'conundrum' ;)
And now, a noble called Rauffe de Grenefeld is randomly punishing advies, by attempting assasinations. I didn't even know Fissoa /had/ an assasin! Well, I guess he's unexperienced, though, as his first victim managed to scare him off :P
From a discussion that got out of hand, this is getting increasingly interesting.
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don't worry - this is the first time I've found playing an advy to be genuinely interesting. I'm glad to see every one has been able to keep it IC, and to let their chars react like they normally would. Gold isn't so hard to collect with so many beasts around.
:) that's okay man! It's bringing Fissoa alive, for once :P
Your writing is impressive by the way. I wasn't joking when Skyndarbau said he didn't understand the word 'conundrum' ;)
And now, a noble called Rauffe de Grenefeld is randomly punishing advies, by attempting assasinations. I didn't even know Fissoa /had/ an assasin! Well, I guess he's unexperienced, though, as his first victim managed to scare him off :P
From a discussion that got out of hand, this is getting increasingly interesting.
You guys are really cool people 8)
Thanks for being so awesome.
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Well, thank you for making the game worthwile!
I realise now how important it is to separate IC and OOC. If I acted like Skyndarbau, I'd never get along with you, Shane. :D
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:) that's okay man! It's bringing Fissoa alive, for once :P
Your writing is impressive by the way. I wasn't joking when Skyndarbau said he didn't understand the word 'conundrum' ;)
And now, a noble called Rauffe de Grenefeld is randomly punishing advies, by attempting assasinations. I didn't even know Fissoa /had/ an assasin! Well, I guess he's unexperienced, though, as his first victim managed to scare him off :P
From a discussion that got out of hand, this is getting increasingly interesting.
That's probably the foolhardiest way to train as an infiltrator that I can imagine. Adventurers make their living single-handedly killing extremely scary creatures - they tend to be very, very good swordsmen. Not the easiest targets.
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That's probably the foolhardiest way to train as an infiltrator that I can imagine. Adventurers make their living single-handedly killing extremely scary creatures - they tend to be very, very good swordsmen. Not the easiest targets.
Exactly. My new advy already hits 30% swordsmanskill or something.
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That's probably the foolhardiest way to train as an infiltrator that I can imagine. Adventurers make their living single-handedly killing extremely scary creatures - they tend to be very, very good swordsmen. Not the easiest targets.
Adventurers are limited by their equipment though and I assume that also holds for Infiltrator Attacks. It's pretty expensive to upgrade all your gear.
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:) that's okay man! It's bringing Fissoa alive, for once :P
Your writing is impressive by the way. I wasn't joking when Skyndarbau said he didn't understand the word 'conundrum' ;)
And now, a noble called Rauffe de Grenefeld is randomly punishing advies, by attempting assasinations. I didn't even know Fissoa /had/ an assasin! Well, I guess he's unexperienced, though, as his first victim managed to scare him off :P
From a discussion that got out of hand, this is getting increasingly interesting.
I'm quite good, actually. But have you ever tried stabbing an advy? It's not as easy as you think. Quick little bastards, I'll give them that. It's because I am so good I didn't end up in prison myself.
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You're playing the de Grenefeld family?
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Y'know, Nerukou, if you're going to quote me in-game to support your positions OOC, I'd appreciate it if you'd not quote selectively so as to destroy the meaning of what I said.
I reiterate here: it is at best putting you on very shaky SMA ground to suggest that commoners, of any stripe, have any rights. However, that does not mean that one should attack them wantonly, nor that it is wrong to codify protections for them into law. One of the other Fissoans, I believe, mentioned something about the difference between "that which is inalienable and that which is granted." She's on the right track.
When I say that commoners do not have rights under SMA, I mean those that are inalienable. Anyone may have rights granted them by law; I just find that it is simpler to define rights as those that are inalienable, and those that are granted as simply protections under law, so that I don't have to say the whole thing out each time ;)
Some protections under law would still not be reasonable under SMA (for instance, a law that says if a commoner and a noble disagree, the commoner's word is to be believed), but simple things like "don't arrest or attack them without a very good reason" are fine.
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So Anaris, when Skyndarbau proposes 'property rights', being a law that protects commoners from being 'robbed' or fined without reason, but still allows for confiscating of property if whatever consensus has been reached, that is not violating SMA? Or is it?
And how do you even know what he said in-game?
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So Anaris, when Skyndarbau proposes 'property rights', being a law that protects commoners from being 'robbed' or fined without reason, but still allows for confiscating of property if whatever consensus has been reached, that is not violating SMA? Or is it?
I see no reason that would violate SMA as long as it was clear that it was the nobles agreeing to allow the commoners to keep their stuff (because it's stupid to antagonize them for no reason), and not that it's fundamentally wrong to take stuff from commoners.
And I have friends in Fissoa.
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Well, the last thing Skyndarbau wants is to put commoners above the law; he's been robbed before once :)
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And how do you even know what he said in-game?
Obviously, somebody told him.
And Tim, what you do or do not appreciate doesn't concern me.
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Obviously, somebody told him.
And Tim, what you do or do not appreciate doesn't concern me.
Well, so long as at least the players of Skyndarbau and Shin, here, know that you're being deliberately and unapologetically dishonest OOC about this, I'm satisfied with that.
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Well, so long as at least the players of Skyndarbau and Shin, here, know that you're being deliberately and unapologetically dishonest OOC about this, I'm satisfied with that.
Peachy. I'm glad we're all happy then.
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Obviously, somebody told him.
Well, for as far as I know, the Dev team can look into all messages sent. Or something. Not that I wish to insinuate Anaris of abusing his powers, not at all.
Well, so long as at least the players of Skyndarbau and Shin, here, know that you're being deliberately and unapologetically dishonest OOC about this, I'm satisfied with that.
I must say that sounds disturbing. Could someone break it down once more for me?
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I must say that sounds disturbing. Could someone break it down once more for me?
I stated that stating that commoners had rights, as such, was incorrect, but that giving them protections under law was fine.
Nerukou (player of Rauffe) quoted only the first part of that, out of context, as far as I can tell to support his position that everyone should be able to abuse commoners in any way they want any time.
I called him out on it, and he snidely said that he didn't care what I thought, the clear implication being that he feels there is nothing wrong with quoting me out of context to support a position nearly opposite to that which my words actually said.
I don't know what I've done to earn such open contempt from him OOC.
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I stated that stating that commoners had rights, as such, was incorrect, but that giving them protections under law was fine.
Nerukou (player of Rauffe) quoted only the first part of that, out of context, as far as I can tell to support his position that everyone should be able to abuse commoners in any way they want any time.
I called him out on it, and he snidely said that he didn't care what I thought, the clear implication being that he feels there is nothing wrong with quoting me out of context to support a position nearly opposite to that which my words actually said.
I don't know what I've done to earn such open contempt from him OOC.
Thanks.
I guess Alanna did, seeing Rauffe de Grenefeld was King of Myern ;) though I must say reading your posts on forums had rid me of the grudge I had against the Anaris family. OOC ftw!
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I, however, still hate the Anaris family :P
But Tim is pretty cool 8)
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It wouldn't happen to have anything to do with his arrogant "holier-than-thou", I Am The Voice of Tom attitude. Or the fact that he seems to think his word is law simply because he is a developer. Or the fact that he, in a temper tantrum, called me a "self-absorbed, self-righteous, condescending bastard" because I told him a lot of people value the role-play they have with other players over any particular game mechanic, or even the game itself. Or the fact that he threatened to delete Arcaea from the Far East because I disagreed with him.
That can't be it at all.
So yeah, I tend to think he's an ass any given day of the week.
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I, however, still hate the Anaris family :P
But Tim is pretty cool 8)
I can understand that, seeing she stole PeL's throne from Kaennji. Care to tell the tale? Though we could do that in-game too :)
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I can understand that, seeing she stole PeL's throne from Kaennji. Care to tell the tale? Though we could do that in-game too :)
OOC It's pretty simple, Keannji was a very weak ruler, I tried to play him as a kind of nice-guy. He was nothing like Shin, Shin is a true politician and a conservative hardass. Kaennji had no politician in him and didn't really lie about anything. Alanna on the other hand was very politically savvy and Kaennji was no match. In the end Diodorus Exiled convinced Kaennji to secede (this is when he was Duke of Poryatown) as he promised to join after the secession. I'm still not completely sure if Alanna was involved, but if she wasn't I'd be surprised.
If you asked Shin about Kaennji's story on the other hand. He would tell tales about how Alanna deposed him with her mysterious witchcraft and purely machiavellian motivations.
In the end I think depends on how you look at it. No power has ever been transferred without a large bull!@#$ factor, and characters that tell the transparent truth never get too far. That's why powerful people will always have haters: because the haters will always be somewhat justified.
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OOC It's pretty simple, Keannji was a very weak ruler, I tried to play him as a kind of nice-guy. He was nothing like Shin, Shin is a true politician and a conservative hardass. Kaennji had no politician in him and didn't really lie about anything. Alanna on the other hand was very politically savvy and Kaennji was no match.
Though Alanna became Queen when Kaennji stepped down voluntarily—I think you were pretty inactive at the time, and just not able to attend to rulership much.
To be fair, though, he stepped down when Alanna was halfway from Askileon to Poryatown (which was still the capital then) to lead a rebellion against him, which would have included a number of other prominent early Lurians, and had almost no chance of failing, as I recall ;D
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Though Alanna became Queen when Kaennji stepped down voluntarily—I think you were pretty inactive at the time, and just not able to attend to rulership much.
Yeah it's kind of coming back now. When I was playing Kaennji I was in the middle of end of school exams!!
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Or the fact that he threatened to delete Arcaea from the Far East because I disagreed with him.
I find this very hard to believe. Even if he did say it, most likely in a fit of rage, It would never happen. Anyone who would believe that it would is delusional. My limited interaction with both Anaris and Nerukou leads me to believe that you are both very head strong and stubborn people. Anaris can come across as a "know it all" but I think that is because he knows a lot. Over the years the same ideas have been suggested and shot down by Tom. Tim, from his time reading the D-list and yes being on the Dev team knows exactly what Toms response will be. When Tom tells you repeatedly that 1+1=2 then the next time someone asks you what 1+1 is you don't need to run to Tom and ask him the answer.
You two don't have to respect or even like one another. Just try and be courteous. Nothing is gained by the back and forth bantering.
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Neroku--developers do not have access to the production servers, only Tom does. Tom moves all code in, Tom is the only one who knows about "special" things (for example, the special abilities of special forces).
Tim couldn't "delete" Archea even if he wanted to--although the Anaris family might wipe it off the map, IC.
Given the amount of rudeness you're displaying here I wouldn't blame him if he did.
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I reiterate here: it is at best putting you on very shaky SMA ground to suggest that commoners, of any stripe, have any rights. However, that does not mean that one should attack them wantonly, nor that it is wrong to codify protections for them into law. One of the other Fissoans, I believe, mentioned something about the difference between "that which is inalienable and that which is granted." She's on the right track.
Though I usually dislike animal-commoner analogies, it will work here. Many modern people support rules against animal cruelty, probably most modern people. Not all modern people believe in animal rights (exhibit 1: me). It is common to believe in rules of behavior and treatment even in regards to entities we do not regard as having fundamental rights.
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Though I usually dislike animal-commoner analogies, it will work here. Many modern people support rules against animal cruelty, probably most modern people. Not all modern people believe in animal rights (exhibit 1: me). It is common to believe in rules of behavior and treatment even in regards to entities we do not regard as having fundamental rights.
Though I'd argue many consider them as indeed having "rights", though most people don't affirm they have the same rights as us.
It's almost getting a debate of semantics... One can have "rights" without having all of the rights another person/entity enjoys. For example, many people consider that we do not have the "right" to chose on another's life or death, that such a thing belongs to God (i.e. another (superior) entity).
And let's not forget that freemen, by definition, are not owned by nobles. Also, if some of them got REALLY rich back in the days, it's certainly not in a context where they have no rights.
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Tim couldn't "delete" Archea even if he wanted to--although the Anaris family might wipe it off the map, IC.
Given the amount of rudeness you're displaying here I wouldn't blame him if he did.
Really? One person's OOC rudeness would be justification for destroying a realm of 70-odd people, IC or otherwise?
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Sense of community! That's why you take care that you don't let bad eggs in your fold. I think egamma was exaggerating that though.
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I think egamma was exaggerating that though.
This.
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Though I usually dislike animal-commoner analogies, it will work here. Many modern people support rules against animal cruelty, probably most modern people. Not all modern people believe in animal rights (exhibit 1: me). It is common to believe in rules of behavior and treatment even in regards to entities we do not regard as having fundamental rights.
I fully agree that any consciousness or philosphy of equality amongst species didn't take place as a majority in society until just recently in western human history, as far as i know.
I do am saddened and astounded by the fact that there are 'learned' people who'd still think the same after so much astonishing development in publicly accessible sience and knowledge during the past 200/300 years and especially the last 20 with the internet.
Even after Darwins origin of species and so much great philosophers during and after contributed so much, there are people who think that humans are IT, the final stage of evolution, perfection, the only true child of god as the christian church indoctrinated us for so many centuries.
Above all the other species, who are in many different kind of ways, MUCH more perfect than us!
You might laugh now, but lets see who will have the LAST laugh...
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but lets see who will have the LAST laugh...
Dinosaurs!
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I fully agree that any consciousness or philosphy of equality amongst species didn't take place as a majority in society until just recently in western human history, as far as i know.
I do am saddened and astounded by the fact that there are 'learned' people who'd still think the same after so much astonishing development in publicly accessible sience and knowledge during the past 200/300 years and especially the last 20 with the internet.
Even after Darwins origin of species and so much great philosophers during and after contributed so much, there are people who think that humans are IT, the final stage of evolution, perfection, the only true child of god as the christian church indoctrinated us for so many centuries.
Above all the other species, who are in many different kind of ways, MUCH more perfect than us!
You might laugh now, but lets see who will have the LAST laugh...
Did you just defend the "equality" of all species and at the same time argue that some species are genetically "more perfect" than others in the same breath? ::)
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Guess who just attacked Candiels 8)
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Guess who just attacked Candiels 8)
Hehe :P
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Guess who just attacked Candiels 8)
Did Madina attack the walls of Candiels? Do you have a battle report?
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Did Madina attack the walls of Candiels? Do you have a battle report?
[Scribe:158176|0e0c050969f5624c] Battle in Candiels fresh
big fun, they where fully suprised.
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Am I blind, or did you climb a stronghold without siege engines? :o
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Am I blind, or did you climb a stronghold without siege engines? :o
Yes we did, cool hu?
heres a little rp i wrote on it:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Nosferatus_Family/Abbot/Roleplay6
it's possible to scale walls without siege engines, it's just harder.
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siege equipment is for p*****, and also a little hard to bring them on ya ship, HARRR!
We from Madina use our guts, bare hands and alcohol.....especially alcohol ^_^
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Caerwyn found out how hard it is to do coordinated moves on Dwilight. Warfare on Dwilight isn't easy.
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Caerwyn found out how hard it is to do coordinated moves on Dwilight. Warfare on Dwilight isn't easy.
450vs800. Pwnt :)
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Scout Report (Candiels): [Scribe:158280|606eba71d3a8f15d]
For those intrested.
Where having quick alot of roleplays, of which are very entertaining, perhaps i could bundle it into some wiki page with the player of Mendicant.
King Mendicant brutaly smashed the skull of one of his staff with his very own scepter out of frustration and still denies any starvation ever happened.
Meanwhile, Madinans are handing out alcohol to starving Candilians.
fun fun fun!
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Yes, that's what they need. Alcohol, to drink away their sorrow.
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Yes, that's what they need. Alcohol, to drink away their sorrow.
Aye, we give them alcohol to forget about their hunger, that is until the first grainshipments arrive 8)
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Received Mendicant's role-play as well, love this part: "...we do not capitulate and we do not avoid a fight, any man who fails to fight will be hung, drawn and quartered, any man who claims to be to sick, or starving, or other such lies shall also be executed at my pleasure if they do not man the defences of our city!"
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Received Mendicant's role-play as well, love this part: "...we do not capitulate and we do not avoid a fight, any man who fails to fight will be hung, drawn and quartered, any man who claims to be to sick, or starving, or other such lies shall also be executed at my pleasure if they do not man the defences of our city!"
Knights Of Anhanger successfully evade the foreign troops, lol start hanging yourself, 'King' Mendicant. After the quatering, may I lay claim on his left leg. I've somehow grown a bit fond of it :P
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King Mendicant is from Aurvandil? (Aurvandillian? :p)
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How do you pronounce Caerwyn
, and what do you call its inhabitants? Caerwynians?
Edit: Read the wiki a bit. :-X
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siege equipment is for p*****, and also a little hard to bring them on ya ship, HARRR!
We from Madina use our guts, bare hands and alcohol.....especially alcohol ^_^
Reminds me of how well that fared against the walls of Paisly. ???
I always suspected a lot of alcohol was involved in that, though.
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I always suspected a lot of alcohol was involved in that, though.
Aye, but I have suspisions that Abbot used a rope to get his fat arsh over the walls ;)
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More like two or three.
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I suppose you use ladders when you don't have siege engines.
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I suppose you use ladders when you don't have siege engines.
Well, once enough of your comrades get killed, their bodies form a stairway enabling you to climb up into the fortifications.
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I suppose you use ladders when you don't have siege engines.
I thought they scaled the walls like in Prince of Persia, with some guy with amazing accuracy shooting crossbow bolts into the wall to act as hand grips. It was TOTALLY believable.
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It would take too long and too much dead bodies to make a stairway of it. And never watched Prince of Persia. :D Nice ideas, but I believe I am sticking to my ladders.
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It would take too long and too much dead bodies to make a stairway of it. And never watched Prince of Persia. :D Nice ideas, but I believe I am sticking to my ladders.
But ladders lack a certain level of drama. Any old peasant can carry a ladder and put it up against a wall.
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Why old peasants?
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Anyone want to give a new face a brief history of Dwilight? :) I've tried reading the wiki but it wasn't very clear and parts didn't seem upto date. I'm specificly interested in the north-east of the islands where Summerdale is as I have a noble there.
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I'd help you, but I know little of the North :) SA vs Anti-SA, afaik.
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First there was nothing. Then there was Sanguis Astroism. What more do you need? 8)
Seriously, though, try these:
- http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Timeline - For early history, refer to the "First Pentannual" and "Second Pentannual"
- http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_Daily - A newspaper I wrote for Dwilight for a few years, back when the island started. Lost interested after about 2+ years of writing it. Check the archives for more details.
- http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_News - Hasn't been updated in a while, but this includes links to various IC newspapers written for Dwilight. Some have more than others.
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First there was nothing. Then there was Sanguis Astroism. What more do you need? 8)
Seriously, though, try these:
- http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Timeline - For early history, refer to the "First Pentannual" and "Second Pentannual"
- http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_Daily - A newspaper I wrote for Dwilight for a few years, back when the island started. Lost interested after about 2+ years of writing it. Check the archives for more details.
- http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight_News - Hasn't been updated in a while, but this includes links to various IC newspapers written for Dwilight. Some have more than others.
This helps thanks. Can you explain what "Asylon", "Averoth", "Entai" and "Zuma Coalition" are though? None of them seem to be on the political map?
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Asylon is a small realm west of Caerwyn, Averoth was a small realm based in Valkyrja on the very north of Dwilight, and the Zuma Coalition is a NPC "realm" northwest of Terran that is very mysterious.
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Asylon is a small realm west of Caerwyn, Averoth was a small realm based in Valkyrja on the very north of Dwilight, and the Zuma Coalition is a NPC "realm" northwest of Terran that is very mysterious.
Asylons banner hasn't changed on the Political map thats why I was confused. Why is Averoth still in existance if its been destroyed then? And what is/was Entai?
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Realms are not immediately deleted when their last region is lost. Deletion is a manual process, and cn only be done by Tom. He likes to give the characters a while to find new realms, before the lost realm is deleted and the remaining nobles in it sent rogue.
Entai was a realm formed by the secession of the city of Aegir from Morek Empire. It was short lived, as all the nobles in it left and went to Astrum as soon as the Carwyn/Astrum war started. Morek then reclaimed all the lost regions.
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Deleting realms is done manually by Tom once they've been destroyed for a while and it's clear that they aren't going to be able to recover. Entai...I think that was Allison's brief secession from Morek. That was going to be a civil war, but the declaration of the League of Free Nations against the Brotherhood of Astrocracies cause them to make amends and it got reabsorbed as Allison and co moved west to help Astrum.
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That was going to be a civil war, but the declaration of the League of Free Nations against the Brotherhood of Astrocracies cause them to make amends and it got reabsorbed as Allison and co moved west to help Astrum.
:o League of free.... Brootherhood.... Wut?
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League of Free Nations = Thulsoma, Averoth, Caerwyn, Madina = anti-Sanguis Astroism.
Brotherhood of Astrocracies = Sanguis Astroism.
It's more complicated than that, of course, but that's a reasonable summation.
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League of Free Nations = Thulsoma, Averoth, Caerwyn, Madina = anti-Sanguis Astroism.
Brotherhood of Astrocracies = Sanguis Astroism.
It's more complicated than that, of course, but that's a reasonable summation.
Quick search on the Wiki reveles that that basicly means Caerwyn vs. pretty much everyone else. Thulsoma and Averoth don't seems to exist properly anymore and Madina is having some sort of civil war now? Whereas Sanguis Astroism seems to be expanding with pretty much no internal problems. That be an accurate summary?
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That would be correct, yes. SA has some internal disputes, but they've mostly quieted to deal with the war from what I hear.
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So expect a quick bloody war which will end up with a win for SA? Is there no hope for the anti-SA crowd?
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Hard to say. Fighting on Dwilight is hard. I doubt you'll see anything quick, I anticipate it will be quite bloody, and I would indeed anticipate that SA will win, but it's just not easy to guess these things.
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So expect a quick bloody war which will end up with a win for SA? Is there no hope for the anti-SA crowd?
Damn, this guy is good. He must have had a kick-ass mentor. :) We've been busily trying to beat this into the thick heads of the non-SA realms for years, bu this guy's already figured it out! :P
Actually, it won't be *that* easy. There's a lot of realms that, so far, don't really care about this war either way. I think that many of them realize that this current war is Caerwyn's fault. They broke their federation with Astrum to declare the war. That kind of thing doesn't go over too well with many people.
Nevertheless.... This will be a difficult war. The outcome is by no means written in stone. (Yet! But we're working on it. ;D)
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No, not that easy. Caerwyn has been highly ineffective in the war so far. All they did initially was loot Duil and Chrysantalys Mines rogue, but they never worked up the juice to try taking on the militia in Eidulb Outskirts and Chrysantalys, so after that they pretty much marched around in circles and half-heartedly tried to take Duil and the Mines over. Meanwhile, we gathered our allies and crushed Averoth in a bloody siege of Valkyrja that lasted a couple weeks.
Now however it looks like a lot of the Averothian and Thulsoman nobles will be traveling there to continue the fight. That could easily put them up to 70-80 nobles, which would make them much stronger than they have been. The war could go on for a while and Astrum is far from free and clear, but we definitely have the momentum.
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It would take too long and too much dead bodies to make a stairway of it. And never watched Prince of Persia. :D Nice ideas, but I believe I am sticking to my ladders.
And thus why it always failed, they didn't bring enough corpses to top Paisly's walls. Mind you, the corpse stairway *was* getting pretty high at the end... But I'm guessing they had run out of soldiers by then.
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Quick search on the Wiki reveles that that basicly means Caerwyn vs. pretty much everyone else. Thulsoma and Averoth don't seems to exist properly anymore and Madina is having some sort of civil war now? Whereas Sanguis Astroism seems to be expanding with pretty much no internal problems. That be an accurate summary?
Not "everyone else", no. A good chunk of the North, however, but even that means incredible travel distances. South of that, Sanguis Astroism is very small. It is small in Asylon and Terran, and is almost (or completely) meaningless everywhere else (Barca, D'Hara, Madina, Aurvandil, Grand Duchy of Fissoa, Luria Nova, and Pian en Luries).
Them not killing each other too much in the North doesn't make them quite united either, though, if when the war with Caerwyn ends (regardless of the result), I'd have a hard time seeing them able to do anything other than turn on each other, due to how far everyone else is.
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Them not killing each other too much in the North doesn't make them quite united either, though, if when the war with Caerwyn ends (regardless of the result), I'd have a hard time seeing them able to do anything other than turn on each other, due to how far everyone else is.
This is highly likely, although Astrum and Allison Kabrinski in particular will probably be busy dealing with the consequences of the war for quite a while (assuming we do win). We were in the process of doing that before, until Averoth and Caerywn went all Jihad on us out of the blue. And no, we really didn't see that coming. Fortunately though, it completely united us on a path of righteous retribution :)
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Them not killing each other too much in the North doesn't make them quite united either, though, if when the war with Caerwyn ends (regardless of the result), I'd have a hard time seeing them able to do anything other than turn on each other, due to how far everyone else is.
When this war ends, they will start a feud with Libero Empire and Summerdale which will result in a war to wipe out the last heathen realms in the North.
After that, they will launch crusades against the realms of the south and try to colonize as much cities as possible to create new theocracies under the bloodstars.
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After that, they will launch crusades against the realms of the south and try to colonize as much cities as possible to create new theocracies under the bloodstars.
I do like that part, but the goody goods in Sanguis Astroism don't like voicing my dreams of world domination!
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When this war ends, they will start a feud with Libero Empire and Summerdale which will result in a war to wipe out the last heathen realms in the North.
After that, they will launch crusades against the realms of the south and try to colonize as much cities as possible to create new theocracies under the bloodstars.
I like your signature. 8)
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Another question. Are there any other faiths on dwilight? I have yet to hear of any.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight#Religions
I think this is not perfectly up to date; as far as I know the Order of St Iestyn is dead, and I think there is a new one in PeL. If anyone can confirm it would be nice to update it.
In the end, it does not matter, of course: heathen is heathen, whatever the particular form of heathenry.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight#Religions
I think this is not perfectly up to date; as far as I know the Order of St Iestyn is dead, and I think there is a new one in PeL. If anyone can confirm it would be nice to update it.
In the end, it does not matter, of course: heathen is heathen, whatever the particular form of heathenry.
The Manifest Path is the new PeL religion. Its small but quite lively.
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Another question. Are there any other faiths on dwilight? I have yet to hear of any.
I love this guy! Every time he posts, I want to give him a cookie. ;D
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I've been thinking to have my character follow a religion, but I don't want anything too ...religion-ish :P I'd like some sort of theological discussions, but it would have to be a religion tolerating others. Nothing like the SA-imperialism :)
Or maybe not a religion, but more a philosophy. Any 'phylosopher guilds' on Dwilight?
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Holos seemed to be a Socrates imitation. It died.
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I've been thinking to have my character follow a religion, but I don't want anything too ...religion-ish :P I'd like some sort of theological discussions, but it would have to be a religion tolerating others. Nothing like the SA-imperialism :)
Or maybe not a religion, but more a philosophy. Any 'phylosopher guilds' on Dwilight?
Actually, you might be interested in the Manifest Path. It's not all that "religion-ish" ;)
You can find information about it on the Wiki (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Manifest_Path), or ask Bedwyr.
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Or maybe not a religion, but more a philosophy. Any 'phylosopher guilds' on Dwilight?
Join the Dwilight University!
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The Manifest Path follows no god or divine power and aims to spread the stabilizing force of civilization through the known world. We also have pork rib Wednesday.
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When this war ends, they will start a feud with Libero Empire and Summerdale which will result in a war to wipe out the last heathen realms in the North.
After that, they will launch crusades against the realms of the south and try to colonize as much cities as possible to create new theocracies under the bloodstars.
I love it how people outside of SA have way more grandiose plans for our domination of the world than we do ;D
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It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You *think* that SA is going to go all Crusade on you, so you are hostile and antagonistic toward them, eventually provoking the very Crusade you feared. And we all have Fun. :)
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It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You *think* that SA is going to go all Crusade on you, so you are hostile and antagonistic toward them, eventually provoking the very Crusade you feared. And we all have Fun. :)
Well, that's what Caerwyn did, for sure. I plan to try pushing the Church in a more militant direction as Lysander. I've decided that he looked at his father's life and how his father dealt with the people that hated SA and has decided that moderation is not the way to go. Lysander will be all about preemptive strikes ;)
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It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You *think* that SA is going to go all Crusade on you, so you are hostile and antagonistic toward them, eventually provoking the very Crusade you feared. And we all have Fun. :)
Don't get too carried away. They try to make you think that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that plays in your favor, while in reality that same prophecy subtly insinuates that the realm housing the largest temple of all of SA is actually a heathen realm that should be wiped out.
It seems we have clever enemies....
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The Manifest Path follows no god or divine power and aims to spread the stabilizing force of civilization through the known world. We also have pork rib Wednesday.
I read the wiki, and with great interest. That is, until I made the association with nazi-eugenetics. I must say the resemblance disgusted me.
Not that I dispute the religion in any way, I mean, this is just a game. I would have loved to join your religion, but now that I have this association in my head, there's no way I can join. Unless you prove me otherwise ;)
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That's a religion? It doesn't sound like one at all. It sounds like Secular Humanism, minus most of the morality stuff. What do you worship? What do you pray to? I find in the Manifest Path nothing I would expect to find in a religion - there is no mythology, no system of personal morality, no divinity, and no faith. What you have here can at best be considered an ideology, like Marxism or (as Shizzle pointed out) Facism. Do you really think that this is SMA?
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,509.msg9796.html#msg9796 (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,509.msg9796.html#msg9796)
I am inclined to agree with what Indirik says in the above post on this topic.
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Well, I think the term religion should be open to interpretation by the players.
I suppose they worship 'Civilisation' :) and after all, they do defend a certain set of beliefs/ way of living. Compare it to Buddhism?
Straight from our friend Wiki: The refutation[1] of the notion of a supreme God or a prime mover is seen as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions. In, Buddhism the sole aim of spiritual practice is the complete alleviation of stress in samsara,[2][3] called nirvana. The Buddha explicitly rejects a creator,[4] denies endorsing any views on creation[5] and states that questions on the origin of the world are worthless.
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I love this guy! Every time he posts, I want to give him a cookie. ;D
Happy to take your cookie, as long as its in the form of gold bonds. ;) Can make the bonds out to a "Konrad von Ironkrieg" native of Nifelheim and proud noble of Summerdale.
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Which is a fair point; I suppose I mostly mean in the SMA context. And, Buddhism still has several elements which the Manifest Path is missing, such as a system of personal morality and articles of faith (in the existence of the state of Nirvana for example).
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Which is a fair point; I suppose I mostly mean in the SMA context. And, Buddhism still has several elements which the Manifest Path is missing, such as a system of personal morality and articles of faith (in the existence of the state of Nirvana for example).
Well, I'm no MP afficionado, but I do think they have both. On their 'homepage' they list a series of 'truths', and the main moral rule would be 'does anything I do result in a greater good for all of mankind?'
Besides: I believe SMA is solely the base structure for Dwilight (BM). However the continent evolves from there, as long as it's accepted IG, should be SMA(?)
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Surely the path is a "religion" in the BM sense in the same way Buddhism is a "religion" in the real life sense? Both are actually philosophies about the way life should be lived and what constitutes a successful life. But the followers of these “religions” follow them at the cost of following a more mainstream religion with afterlife and other beliefs. Therefore it makes sense to me that the Manifest Path is classed as a religion.
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Tom has stated that eastern philosophical religions have no place on Dwilight. Not only that, he has gone a bit farther, and even defined that religions should have some European style/flavor. That is why the Mayan/Aztec-based Blood Cult was not founded on Dwilight. So, no, you are not allowed free reign to do whatever you want on Dwilight, like you are on other islands.
Also, SMA is not just a "starting point" for Dwilight. It is a continuing, and ongoing, guideline for the types of things that are acceptable on the island. Using it as a starting point, and then removing all restriction after that, is rather pointless, as the guidelines would immediately become void.
IMHO, it is not enough for an organization to simply acknowledge that gods exist in order to be considered a religion in game mechanics terms. A religion should be devoted to the worship and promotion of those gods. (Whether you are sincere or not is of no consequence.) Otherwise, all you are is a glorified guild.
Anyway, I've had this discussion with Bedwyr via IRC, and we've pretty much agreed to disagree. I don't think it's a valid religion for Dwilight, and he does. (Although I would see no problem with it being on other islands.)
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So are 'eastern' priciples outlawed as well? Looking at the many religions that worship man-shaped gods (antropomorfic deities)... Antropomorfism is an eastern developement, before it was accepted by the Greeks.
Where do you drawn the line between 'eastern' and 'european' flavour? I am sure the whole european concept itself is not SMA ;)
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I think the main reason I consider the Manifest Path a religion is that, to me, it takes the established facts of the BM world and runs with them. SMA does not trump the facts of the BM world to me.
Does it match any real world Western religions? I personally think of it as being very much like what the Norse religion was like if you took away the Aesir as "good guys" and lumped them in with the other supernaturals like the Jotun, and then added in a nice dose of order-worship. But that's really beside the point.
Our characters live in a world where giant monsters and armies of the undead routinely walk the earth and try actively to destroy us. They live in a world where the gates of Hell (or a reasonable simulacrum) open up on a semi-regular basis, and fire-breathing flying horrors that roast entire villages in an evening twist the very fabric of reality to destroy human resistance. They live in a world where there are entities that display power on the level of gods...And all of those entities want to consume humans, including the Light which demanded blood sacrifices.
And not once has any entity manifested itself as humanity's protector, leaving aside the Light which can have serious issue taken with it. There are extraordinarily hostile powers at work...And no unambiguously good ones. How would anything like the Christian church continue to function in Battlemaster when there is proof positive that God is not protecting us from the unimaginable horrors? That leaves out the main religion we are supposed to base SMA on. What about the rest of the religions? The ones that ascribe what we today call natural phenomena to various deities? All of them tend to have protector deities that keep humans from being plagued by the worst monsters, and you could tell yourself that even if we were fighting monsters, it wasn't as bad as it used to be.
But it is. Even in the most horrific past mythos of BM religions, there is nothing comparable to the horrors of the Third and Fourth Invasions that I have ever seen. Certainly, nothing in recorded history is anywhere near that level of sheer terror.
Which others are starting to pick up on. One of the main groups in the Manifest Path now is somewhat disillusioned followers of other gods who think either that the Path was a revelation from one on how they should live their lives in order to convince that god to return, or that the gods have abandoned us for various reasons, and can point to what has happened on Beluaterra as proof positive that the gods are no longer protecting us as they once did.
As for the eugenics bit: It's not Nazi-eugenics. It is limited eugenics. The two are not the same thing. One of them has the mass killings and sterilization on people who are politically convenient. The other merely forbids the breeding of those with obvious defects unless they can prove significant enough beneficial traits as to make it worthwhile, and puts the emphasis of procreation on improvement rather than on equitable distribution or various other schema.
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All of which perhaps makes this religion suitable for Beluaterra. Very suitable in fact, since all of the non-human forces it references are known *only* there. I am with Indirik though when it comes to its place on Dwilight. It seems far too modern to me, too much like modern political ideologies, with almost no trappings of anything I would consider religious. What exactly are your 'Priests'? What do they 'preach'? I disagree with the comparison to Norse religion since the Aesir aren't exactly a minor part of it - they're the heart of it. I do understand your point about humanity's reaction to monstrous and inhuman invasions, but wouldn't the continual defeats of the invaders reaffirm faith in the gods rather than destroy it?
Fortunately, my opinion doesn't matter :) I can't say I like the Manifest Path very much and would be inclined to avoid it even on a non-SMA island, but it's a shared sandbox. You can build your castle over there in that corner, and I'll stay in mine.
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I think the main reason I consider the Manifest Path a religion is that, to me, it takes the established facts of the BM world and runs with them. SMA does not trump the facts of the BM world to me.
Religion is not based on unequivocal facts, and hard scientific evidence. It is based on faith and belief.
Our characters live in a world where giant monsters and armies of the undead routinely walk the earth and try actively to destroy us. They live in a world where the gates of Hell (or a reasonable simulacrum) open up on a semi-regular basis, and fire-breathing flying horrors that roast entire villages in an evening twist the very fabric of reality to destroy human resistance. They live in a world where there are entities that display power on the level of gods...And all of those entities want to consume humans, including the Light which demanded blood sacrifices.
That is incorrect. I think you can find a rather large portion of the character in BattleMaster who do not hold that all supernatural powers want to destroy/consume humanity. Your character may believe this to be true, but I'd imagine he is in a *very* small minority.
And not once has any entity manifested itself as humanity's protector, leaving aside the Light which can have serious issue taken with it.
Again, incorrect. The Blood Stars have intervened on behalf of Sanguis Astroism many times. In fact, the aid of the Maddening Star was crucial in the most recent assault on Valkyrja. At least, so far as quite a bit of Sanguis Astroism is concerned. Just ask the Holy Prophet. He was there and declared that it was so. And the Maddening Star was bright and superior in the sky, giving proof for all to see. Again, so far as the worshipers of the Blood Stars are concerned. In fact, some even believe that the current war was instigated by the Stars themselves to unify the church of Sanguis Astroism, and draw it together to prevent it from fracturing.
But again, these are all matters of Faith, and not scientific proof. Our characters believe them to be true.
...and can point to what has happened on Beluaterra as proof positive that the gods are no longer protecting us as they once did.
More likely, they followed false gods. If they believed in the true gods then obviously none of that would have happened to them. Poor, misguided heathens...
How would anything like the Christian church continue to function in Battlemaster when there is proof positive that God is not protecting us from the unimaginable horrors?
How do the Christian churches continue to function today without this proof? How did the Jewish faith survive during the holocaust? Or, pick any other religion and any incredibly destructive natural disaster. Are not all of these things proof positive that God doesn't give a damn about humans? I mean, if He was protecting us, then how would tragedies like the Holocaust have been allowed to happen? Or the World Trade Center attacks? Etc., etc., etc. ...
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Slight glitch with my sister being mad and using the same password, which she knows, for everything means I'm now playing as the Darkgrave Family rather than the *now deleted* von Ironkreigs. :( Ah well. I get to be in Madina now where there is lots of fun to be had.... ;D
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I'm just annoyed that so many characters are repelled by Shin and him trying to put "The Creator" into everything. This god is pretty much perfect: he's powerful, callous, "loving", he demands pointless ceremonies and holds the division between nobles and commoners as sacred.
Dwilight nobles should dig this stuff. 8)
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All of which perhaps makes this religion suitable for Beluaterra. Very suitable in fact, since all of the non-human forces it references are known *only* there. I am with Indirik though when it comes to its place on Dwilight. It seems far too modern to me, too much like modern political ideologies, with almost no trappings of anything I would consider religious. What exactly are your 'Priests'? What do they 'preach'? I disagree with the comparison to Norse religion since the Aesir aren't exactly a minor part of it - they're the heart of it. I do understand your point about humanity's reaction to monstrous and inhuman invasions, but wouldn't the continual defeats of the invaders reaffirm faith in the gods rather than destroy it?
Fortunately, my opinion doesn't matter :) I can't say I like the Manifest Path very much and would be inclined to avoid it even on a non-SMA island, but it's a shared sandbox. You can build your castle over there in that corner, and I'll stay in mine.
Calling anything based on Buddhism too "modern" is naive in the extreme, seeing as Buddhism came about before Christianity.
Also, much of Medieval Christianity was based on eastern religions. For example, the idea of a heaven and hell comes from Zoroastrianism.
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Calling anything based on Buddhism too "modern" is naive in the extreme, seeing as Buddhism came about before Christianity.
Modern Buddhism, is far more congruent with the contemporary status quo than with the western religions, i.e. how the Buddhists aim for harmony rather than war etc
Actually I don't want to go into that, because theres very good points for many views and huge historical/philosophical discussion will erupt.
I'll just rest on the fact that Buddhism is too eastern.
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Although I disagree with Tom's ruling and would prefer to just have everything from the time period rather than a specific geo-chronological position, if we are going by his judgement, then yes, Buddhism is not to be had as a religion on Dwilight. I do feel that if you merely made a philosophical guild that followed those beliefs, it would be fine.
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Seeing how this is an argument between Moderators, I suppose only Tom can provide judgement. I think Dwilight will be less fun (for me) without the MP, and as well for several (many?) others, though.
So where can I have a char join the Manifest Path? Before Tom's lightning bolt might strike it :P
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Calling anything based on Buddhism too "modern" is naive in the extreme, seeing as Buddhism came about before Christianity.
Also, much of Medieval Christianity was based on eastern religions. For example, the idea of a heaven and hell comes from Zoroastrianism.
Who said it was based on Buddhism? No one did. Someone brought up Buddhism as an example of an actual religion that lacks divinities, they didn't say MP was based on it. If you're going to insult people, please at least read the thread more carefully.
I am not objecting to religions that are based on eastern religion or saying they are not SMA, as personally I feel that Sanguis Astroism is quite a bit more similar to Buddhism and other eastern traditions than to anything that came out of Western Europe. I am saying that I do not like *this* religion of the Manifest Path because it strikes me as being more ideological than theological. It reminds me of the great utopian political ideologies of the 20th century, such as Marxism and Facism, not of any actual religion with which I am familiar. THAT is what I meant by "modern".
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I think the main reason I consider the Manifest Path a religion is that, to me, it takes the established facts of the BM world and runs with them. SMA does not trump the facts of the BM world to me.
Does it match any real world Western religions? I personally think of it as being very much like what the Norse religion was like if you took away the Aesir as "good guys" and lumped them in with the other supernaturals like the Jotun, and then added in a nice dose of order-worship. But that's really beside the point.
Our characters live in a world where giant monsters and armies of the undead routinely walk the earth and try actively to destroy us. They live in a world where the gates of Hell (or a reasonable simulacrum) open up on a semi-regular basis, and fire-breathing flying horrors that roast entire villages in an evening twist the very fabric of reality to destroy human resistance. They live in a world where there are entities that display power on the level of gods...And all of those entities want to consume humans, including the Light which demanded blood sacrifices.
And not once has any entity manifested itself as humanity's protector, leaving aside the Light which can have serious issue taken with it. There are extraordinarily hostile powers at work...And no unambiguously good ones. How would anything like the Christian church continue to function in Battlemaster when there is proof positive that God is not protecting us from the unimaginable horrors? That leaves out the main religion we are supposed to base SMA on. What about the rest of the religions? The ones that ascribe what we today call natural phenomena to various deities? All of them tend to have protector deities that keep humans from being plagued by the worst monsters, and you could tell yourself that even if we were fighting monsters, it wasn't as bad as it used to be.
But it is. Even in the most horrific past mythos of BM religions, there is nothing comparable to the horrors of the Third and Fourth Invasions that I have ever seen. Certainly, nothing in recorded history is anywhere near that level of sheer terror.
Which others are starting to pick up on. One of the main groups in the Manifest Path now is somewhat disillusioned followers of other gods who think either that the Path was a revelation from one on how they should live their lives in order to convince that god to return, or that the gods have abandoned us for various reasons, and can point to what has happened on Beluaterra as proof positive that the gods are no longer protecting us as they once did.
As for the eugenics bit: It's not Nazi-eugenics. It is limited eugenics. The two are not the same thing. One of them has the mass killings and sterilization on people who are politically convenient. The other merely forbids the breeding of those with obvious defects unless they can prove significant enough beneficial traits as to make it worthwhile, and puts the emphasis of procreation on improvement rather than on equitable distribution or various other schema.
Obviously, the rogues are there to punish us for our sins, and we need to pray to God harder.
The accusations of witchcraft and deals with demons only made people more zealous, I doubt Christianity would have a harder time in a BM context than the real world one.
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That is incorrect. I think you can find a rather large portion of the character in BattleMaster who do not hold that all supernatural powers want to destroy/consume humanity. Your character may believe this to be true, but I'd imagine he is in a *very* small minority.
It is empirically true. All supernatural entities that have provably intervened in the world want to consume humans. The monsters eat us, the undead use our bodies, the Daimons eat us, and the Light required blood sacrifices. Those are knowable facts.
Again, incorrect. The Blood Stars have intervened on behalf of Sanguis Astroism many times. In fact, the aid of the Maddening Star was crucial in the most recent assault on Valkyrja. At least, so far as quite a bit of Sanguis Astroism is concerned. Just ask the Holy Prophet. He was there and declared that it was so. And the Maddening Star was bright and superior in the sky, giving proof for all to see. Again, so far as the worshipers of the Blood Stars are concerned. In fact, some even believe that the current war was instigated by the Stars themselves to unify the church of Sanguis Astroism, and draw it together to prevent it from fracturing.
And SA can believe that all it wants. Jenred believes that he and Arcaea have been favoured by the Aenil in general and Amriel in the specific for various purposes, and holds that all the "luck" Arcaea has had in recent years is due to Edara being blessed. I have nothing against these sort of things, but the fact remains that if you look at the historical records, all entities which have manifested on our world besides humans want to consume humans.
How do the Christian churches continue to function today without this proof? How did the Jewish faith survive during the holocaust? Or, pick any other religion and any incredibly destructive natural disaster. Are not all of these things proof positive that God doesn't give a damn about humans? I mean, if He was protecting us, then how would tragedies like the Holocaust have been allowed to happen? Or the World Trade Center attacks? Etc., etc., etc. ...
Because there are not blatant and obvious supernatural forces running contrary to Christian theology. Natural disasters and human conflicts are not the same thing as fire-breathing Daimons coming from a place called the Netherworld wielding magics that we cannot even comprehend laying waste to entire countries. There is no proof for Christianity or Judaism, but there is nothing disproving them either.
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Who said it was based on Buddhism? No one did. Someone brought up Buddhism as an example of an actual religion that lacks divinities, they didn't say MP was based on it. If you're going to insult people, please at least read the thread more carefully.
I am not objecting to religions that are based on eastern religion or saying they are not SMA, as personally I feel that Sanguis Astroism is quite a bit more similar to Buddhism and other eastern traditions than to anything that came out of Western Europe. I am saying that I do not like *this* religion of the Manifest Path because it strikes me as being more ideological than theological. It reminds me of the great utopian political ideologies of the 20th century, such as Marxism and Facism, not of any actual religion with which I am familiar. THAT is what I meant by "modern".
There are strong ideological components, but this isn't "humans should work together because killing each other is bad" this is "humans should work together because there are known forces that are more powerful than we currently are attempting to commit genocide". As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path. It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes.
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All of which perhaps makes this religion suitable for Beluaterra. Very suitable in fact, since all of the non-human forces it references are known *only* there.
There are a few reasons it's not there, one of which being that I don't want a character on Beluaterra, and another being that Koli thinks Beluaterra has been crippled and the next Invasion will finish it, at which point the rest of the continents are in danger. Dwilight would be the next logical target, so he wants to begin preparing the defenses and alliances now rather than waiting until it is too late.
I am with Indirik though when it comes to its place on Dwilight. It seems far too modern to me, too much like modern political ideologies, with almost no trappings of anything I would consider religious. What exactly are your 'Priests'? What do they 'preach'?
They preach that the defenses of our world have been breached, that the forces of chaos embodied in the Daimons, Undead, and Monsters are growing in strength and power, and that humanity must unite and grow in the face of the coming darkness or be destroyed. They preach that the gods will not stop the coming apocalypse (depending on your sect because they do not care, have abandoned us, or been defeated) and so we must learn to guard ourselves. They preach that the end times are coming, the end of an era and the dawn of a new one, where humanity has learned and grown enough to defeat these menaces...Or been destroyed.
I disagree with the comparison to Norse religion since the Aesir aren't exactly a minor part of it - they're the heart of it.
I would disagree with that. From what I've seen the heart of the Norse mythology was standing in opposition to the Jotun and other hostile forces and readying for the Last Battle. You can take out the Aesir and still have the Norse readying and preparing for battle and standing against unbeatable odds simply because it is the right thing to do.
I do understand your point about humanity's reaction to monstrous and inhuman invasions, but wouldn't the continual defeats of the invaders reaffirm faith in the gods rather than destroy it?
No entity has manifested to protect humanity with the exception of the Light (and I'm surprised no one has made a religion worshiping that yet), and Koli doesn't trust the Light. The First, Second, and Third Invasions would work for your point, but we, at best, stalemated the Fourth Invasion, which looks to me like the protections on our world have decayed or broken...Or, in the case of gods, been abandoned. Indeed, I know of a couple who have joined or are planning on joining the Manifest Path because they explicitly believe the gods abandoned us because of [insert sin here] and that following the Path is the way to bring the gods back to save us. The Tyrist sect of the Path thinks Koli's revelation was directly from Tyr, meant as a way to live our lives in order to appease/strengthen/whatever Tyr to convince him to return and help us.
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So where can I have a char join the Manifest Path? Before Tom's lightning bolt might strike it :P
Currently in Pian en Luries and Luria Nova, though I intend to spread it as far as possible for the obvious reasons.
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Because there are not blatant and obvious supernatural forces running contrary to Christian theology. Natural disasters and human conflicts are not the same thing as fire-breathing Daimons coming from a place called the Netherworld wielding magics that we cannot even comprehend laying waste to entire countries. There is no proof for Christianity or Judaism, but there is nothing disproving them either.
How are demons any worse than what we have in the real life, like the plague for example? Even wolves were believed to be children of Satan.
Daimons are only "supernatural" because we, as players, have never seen them in real life. They are just as normal in the BM world as anything awful is in ours. And terrible things only bring people closer to religions and god-worship, not farther, because people want an easy escape from their misery (asking an all-mighty being for help).
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There are strong ideological components, but this isn't "humans should work together because killing each other is bad" this is "humans should work together because there are known forces that are more powerful than we currently are attempting to commit genocide". As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path. It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes.
Except those supernatural entities aren't myths. They are real, which makes an enormous difference. It is the equivalent of an interspecies hate group. There is no need for faith in MP. It is a rational political ideology, not a religion. I could easily adopt the tenets of MP into my character's politics without it affecting his faith in the Stars whatsoever since nothing about MP involves faith, mythology, worship, or any concept of the divine. It is merely a collection of political positions. Its priests would be politicians, its temples would be party offices. Here is a definition of religion:
"Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."
Explain to me how MP fits that definition in ANY way. By contrast, here is a definition of Ideology:
"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer either change in society, or adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."
Which matches up more closely with MP?
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How are demons any worse than what we have in the real life, like the plague for example? Even wolves were believed to be children of Satan.
Daimons are only "supernatural" because we, as players, have never seen them in real life. They are just as normal in the BM world as anything awful is in ours. And terrible things only bring people closer to religions and god-worship, not farther, because people want an easy escape from their misery (asking an all-mighty being for help).
Except there were never daimons before. Whole big long history of the world...And then suddenly daimons rip open portals from the Netherworld and begin invading with building-sized monstrosities that breathe fire. That's not normal. That's not something any of our characters are prepared to deal with. And the power level of the Daimons is enough that people have worshiped Daimon Lords as gods.
Not to mention that, traditionally, plagues and other disasters have been seen as divine punishment either directly or by withholding protection. Both are held as true by the Manifest Path. The Manifest Path simply disagrees that entities that show more power than us should automatically be worshiped, and most of the BM world has already decided that is the case, as evidenced by fighting the Daimon, Monster, and Undead lords. If you want to argue that we can't be hostile to the supernatural, then point a finger at yourself for not bowing down to Arcane.
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They preach that the defenses of our world have been breached, that the forces of chaos embodied in the Daimons, Undead, and Monsters are growing in strength and power, and that humanity must unite and grow in the face of the coming darkness or be destroyed. They preach that the gods will not stop the coming apocalypse (depending on your sect because they do not care, have abandoned us, or been defeated) and so we must learn to guard ourselves. They preach that the end times are coming, the end of an era and the dawn of a new one, where humanity has learned and grown enough to defeat these menaces...Or been destroyed.
But, since these beings are real, not mythological, this isn't exactly preaching in the religious sense. MP's positions on all of the above spring completely from rational observation of actual events and reasonable deduction, rather than from holy scripture or divine revelation. All they are doing is presenting a political viewpoint. There is nothing religious about it.
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Except there were never daimons before. Whole big long history of the world...And then suddenly daimons rip open portals from the Netherworld and begin invading with building-sized monstrosities that breathe fire. That's not normal. That's not something any of our characters are prepared to deal with. And the power level of the Daimons is enough that people have worshiped Daimon Lords as gods.
Not to mention that, traditionally, plagues and other disasters have been seen as divine punishment either directly or by withholding protection. Both are held as true by the Manifest Path. The Manifest Path simply disagrees that entities that show more power than us should automatically be worshiped, and most of the BM world has already decided that is the case, as evidenced by fighting the Daimon, Monster, and Undead lords. If you want to argue that we can't be hostile to the supernatural, then point a finger at yourself for not bowing down to Arcane.
We actually very did much bow to Arcane, at first. Then we found him stupid and decided his usefulness had expired. And greatly expanded our mythology, which was still extremely primitive at the time. We gradually determined what daimons were, and why they were there. And why the many other great disasters were happening.
Basically, the underlying idea in the cult was that the pure of heart would be spared in the end, that a golden age was awaiting the faithful once this age of strife was over. They thought the world was like a falling air balloon, if you will, and that to make it raise up again and reach their final destination, they had to dump all the heretics weighing it down. And this very much included working with these said "divine" forces to make it happen.
In the end, the disasters did not lower belief in the gods as you suggested it, it rather stimulated it. "The Gods are now too weak to protect us, we must rekindle the old traditions to give them back their strength so that we may live in prosperity under their caring wills". No disaster would have meant no interest in the gods. And since the "old traditions" involved human sacrifices, well it was clearly incompatible withe the "pan-humanity" ideologies which proned universal peace (as opposed to strength through struggle).
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Except those supernatural entities aren't myths. They are real, which makes an enormous difference. It is the equivalent of an interspecies hate group. There is no need for faith in MP. It is a rational political ideology, not a religion. I could easily adopt the tenets of MP into my character's politics without it affecting his faith in the Stars whatsoever since nothing about MP involves faith, mythology, worship, or any concept of the divine.
So, you're basically saying that because the supernatural entities actually exist, as opposed to being completely made up, that you can't have a religion focusing on them? Does that make the slightest bit of sense? No, there's no mythology, because there's history of the supernatural incursions. No, there's no worship, because what's to worship? Everything wants to eat us. There's plenty of concept of the divine, it's just evil.
"Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."
Explain to me how MP fits that definition in ANY way. By contrast, here is a definition of Ideology:
I'm going to talk as if I'm in the Path because it looks clunky otherwise.
The Manifest Path has a growing symbology around the Path, with members being Walkers and leaders being Guides, Trailblazers, Pathfinders, etc. and a lot of focus on finding the Path and Walking it against all odds. There are narratives, traditions, and sacred histories detailing why we should be wary of and oppose the supernatural and give meaning to life by improving it for their children and later descendants. Morality, ethics, religious laws, and preferred lifestyles are derived from our ideas on the cosmos (i.e. it's hostile and wants to eat us) and how human's work and can be molded.
You're also completely leaving aside the fact that the Manifest Path is a religion in an eastern sense.
By contrast, here is a definition of Ideology:
"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer either change in society, or adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."
Which matches up more closely with MP?
You're leaving aside the fact that several people, including myself, believe that all religions are ideologies, hence the term "religious ideology".
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But, since these beings are real, not mythological, this isn't exactly preaching in the religious sense. MP's positions on all of the above spring completely from rational observation of actual events and reasonable deduction, rather than from holy scripture or divine revelation. All they are doing is presenting a political viewpoint. There is nothing religious about it.
Are you saying that religious leaders preaching that eating shellfish and pork in times before they had modern ways of cleaning such foods were not actually talking about religious matters? The fact that more people got sick when they ate those foods rather than others invalidated the religious angle to it?
You're advocating that religions must not have any basis in reality, or they aren't religions. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Plenty of religious strictures are firmly based in reality, as anyone who's looked through the restrictions in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or pretty much any other holy book can tell you.
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In the end, the disasters did not lower belief in the gods as you suggested it, it rather stimulated it. "The Gods are now too weak to protect us, we must rekindle the old traditions to give them back their strength so that we may live in prosperity under their caring wills". No disaster would have meant no interest in the gods. And since the "old traditions" involved human sacrifices, well it was clearly incompatible withe the "pan-humanity" ideologies which proned universal peace (as opposed to strength through struggle).
I never said that invasions from hell had to lower belief in gods. It certainly can, as you can see in our own history along with plenty of examples of people becoming more religious in times of crisis. I said that it did in this specific case, and I thought it made sense. There's a large difference between those two. One of them says "humans can only be this way" and the other says "humans have different reactions to the same events".
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Are you saying that religious leaders preaching that eating shellfish and pork in times before they had modern ways of cleaning such foods were not actually talking about religious matters? The fact that more people got sick when they ate those foods rather than others invalidated the religious angle to it?
You're advocating that religions must not have any basis in reality, or they aren't religions. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Plenty of religious strictures are firmly based in reality, as anyone who's looked through the restrictions in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or pretty much any other holy book can tell you.
I'm not saying they have to be completely divorced from it, no. However, religion is much more about the spiritual and intangible. That the universe is hostile and wants to eat us isn't exactly a revolutionary idea. I'm pretty sure that cavemen lived with that reality every day. Religion is fundamentally about what it means to be human - what is right and what is wrong, where do we come from, where do we go when we die, what is the meaning of life, how can we find peace, etc. Without some of these things, I don't really agree that you can have what I would call a religion. Of course when it comes to religions and ideology, you are right. The lines can be blurred, as most religions are also ideologies. Not all ideologies are religions, however. That's an important distinction. MP is primarily focused on social engineering and propounding a political worldview of hostility to nonhuman political factions, not on human spirituality or the meaning of the divine.
Please explain how MP is a religion in the eastern sense, as I fail to see it.
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The Manifest Path's take on the supernatural entities in the BM-world isn't the only facet of the religion. It also declares that the growth of civilization is a positive good, and this is very specifically not merely in a physical sense. The writings are a bit vague on this point, but it is my intention that when I can find someone who can write this stuff better than I can (Franz is a good candidate) to get someone to start talking about the improvement one can find in cultural enlightenment, how the arts and various other uplifting aspects of civilization can improve the human spirit as much as good plumbing and farming can improve the human body (see why I shouldn't be writing this? I think good plumbing is awesome and should be mentioned all over the place).
Ethics are defined, and quite firmly. Meaning of life is survival and struggle against nigh-impossible odds. The social aspects of the religion delve much more into this sort of thing.
And since when does an idea have to be revolutionary to be religious? Why must it be intangible? Do you think the people a thousand years ago reading the Bible thought the stories there were myths? Or did they think when the Bible said God smote the unbelievers with plagues or sent down a column of fire that those things actually happened? With the exception of the creation itself and the Flood, the powers the Daimons and other leaders of the inhuman factions have displayed are on par with those of the God of the Old Testament. Why isn't a religion based around them valid?
Greek and Roman religion were about propitiating various deities, most of whom were hostile unless handled very carefully. Yes, the gods sometimes helped. More often they got bored and started tossing lightning bolts around or raping you. They didn't think they could fight their deities and win, but if you look at the myths you see a lot of people wishing they could. The Manifest Path thinks that the known deities can be fought successfully, with enough preparation and unity.
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go shinto buddhism or whatever branch of japanese buddhism it was. they had jihads and crusades / equivalents against infidel lords (including christians) and plenty of divine/semi divine beings to pray to back in sengoku. it was rather feudal, admittedly something like 15xx rather than the earlier western times of bm.
last bunch of bt daimons were about as anti-sma as anything can get. what was it that they had? teleportation? laser strikes? bit weird to use them in dwi surely?
so called modern buddhism is more like buddhism the philosophy rather than (various kinds of) buddhism the religion which basically is about as big a hotchpotch with local paganism/religion as christianity is.
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And SA can believe that all it wants. Jenred believes that he and Arcaea have been favoured by the Aenil in general and Amriel in the specific for various purposes, and holds that all the "luck" Arcaea has had in recent years is due to Edara being blessed. I have nothing against these sort of things, but the fact remains that if you look at the historical records, all entities which have manifested on our world besides humans want to consume humans.
Forces which have manifested physical bodies in the past 5 years, maybe? That does not mean they are the only ones that exist, or that intervene in the world. But then a supernatural force does not have to hold a flaming sword in a clawed fist in order to have an effect on the world, or to defend humanity from the scourge of beasts and zombies.
You are also disregarding the Zuma, the human realm that lives in harmony with their daimon protectors, and who have not, so far, "consumed" humans.
Because there are not blatant and obvious supernatural forces running contrary to Christian theology. Natural disasters and human conflicts are not the same thing as fire-breathing Daimons coming from a place called the Netherworld wielding magics that we cannot even comprehend laying waste to entire countries. There is no proof for Christianity or Judaism, but there is nothing disproving them either.
Just like there's nothing disproving the existence of supernatural forces defending humanity against the rogue forces of Dwilight. Just because your character has not personally seen god walking the earth and striking down monsters while they march across the plains toward Askileon does not mean that the gods don't exist, or that the the gods aren't helping defend humanity.
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last bunch of bt daimons were about as anti-sma as anything can get. what was it that they had? teleportation? laser strikes? bit weird to use them in dwi surely?
No, in fact, if you paid attention to what the game text actually said rather than what people nicknamed things, you would have noticed that neither of those things happened during the invasion.
No 4th Invasion NPC had the power of teleportation. None. Did they have abilities that allowed them to travel from one place to another in ways not accessible to regular players? Yes. But those abilities were not teleportation.
The only thing I can figure you mean about "laser strikes" is the Purifying Light, and that had, explicitly, nothing to do with the Daimons. It was described pretty clearly as a release of mystical energy that disintegrated monsters, undead, and Daimons instantly.
Yes, it was nicknamed "orbital laser strike." No, that doesn't mean that's what it was.
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Just like there's nothing disproving the existence of supernatural forces defending humanity against the rogue forces of Dwilight. Just because your character has not personally seen god walking the earth and striking down monsters while they march across the plains toward Askileon does not mean that the gods don't exist, or that the the gods aren't helping defend humanity.
So, someone could just as easily create a religion venerating said hypothetical supernatural forces that protect humanity from the full fury of the rogue forces of Dwilight.
You want to do it? You're welcome to.
But the fact that someone could make that religion doesn't make this religion any less valid.
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No, in fact, if you paid attention to what the game text actually said rather than what people nicknamed things, you would have noticed that neither of those things happened during the invasion.
No 4th Invasion NPC had the power of teleportation. None. Did they have abilities that allowed them to travel from one place to another in ways not accessible to regular players? Yes. But those abilities were not teleportation.
The only thing I can figure you mean about "laser strikes" is the Purifying Light, and that had, explicitly, nothing to do with the Daimons. It was described pretty clearly as a release of mystical energy that disintegrated monsters, undead, and Daimons instantly.
Yes, it was nicknamed "orbital laser strike." No, that doesn't mean that's what it was.
I believe you didn't get what he was saying. Prudent's cloning laboratory ring a bell? Prudent had sci-fi terminology for her RPs, in case you didn't know.
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I believe you didn't get what he was saying. Prudent's cloning laboratory ring a bell? Prudent had sci-fi terminology for her RPs, in case you didn't know.
Ah, you're right, I had forgotten.
The player of Prudent was actively ignoring all attempts by the rest of the GMs—including Tom—to get him to actually join in with the RP we were trying to build for the invasion, and doing his own thing. I don't know why he was doing this, or why he thought it was a good idea, but essentially, anything Prudent said or did should be considered non-canonical.
Or, if you prefer, what Prudent said can be written off as her having gone insane...and anything that people saw happening around her (ie, roleplays the player wrote) were her hallucinations manifesting due to the fact that she was still a Daimon, and thus immensely powerful.
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But the fact that someone could make that religion doesn't make this religion any less valid.
No, what makes it not a religion is the fact that it's not really a religion. It's a political ideology. A philosophical discussion group. A guild. A knightly order. A drinking society, even. But it is not an organization intended to venerate, worship, promote, idolize, or in any other way spread the influence of the gods they worship. In fact, it is almost the exact opposite. It is that fact that, in my interpretation of the intentions of the mechanics of the game, make it not a religion in the sense of BattleMaster game mechanics.
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And so...getting back to Dwilight...
Looks like things are going well in Barca. All is quiet. The peasants are immigrating from D'Hara and Terran. All regions are rogue free. What more could you want?
While we have yet to be tested while my character has been there, it almost looks like Rettle-area could finally be stabilising. Will need the city in better condition first before any reliable speculation can be done though.
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I've heard that before 8)
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I've heard that before 8)
I've never seen it to this extent, though. Not for the area.
Mind you, the colony game is just serial gambling. You just never know when an "OMG WTF MONSTERS SWARM" is going to appear and ruin months' worth of building up.
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IMHO, it is not enough for an organization to simply acknowledge that gods exist in order to be considered a religion in game mechanics terms. A religion should be devoted to the worship and promotion of those gods. (Whether you are sincere or not is of no consequence.) Otherwise, all you are is a glorified guild.
I have to disagree with this. One of the wonderful things about SA is that it evolved organically from a few basic principles. I've heard this repeated so many times that if it wasn't true, it appears to be accepted as canon. If your argument is that the core principles of TMP are themselves not suited for Dwilight, then I think an equally strong argument can be made for the inappropriateness of SA for Dwilight, based on any number of reasons (historical, cultural, whatever). TMP has a few basic and inviolate principles. We've already admitted "sects" who *do* keep their gods, and I doubt it will go too long without the introduction of some kind of manifested higher order. You're attacking a baby in the crib, so to speak.
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Just a note: TMP has already been used for Too Much Peace, so in order to avoid confusion, perhaps use tMP of just MP instead :)
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Just read the wiki page of the MP.
"The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts."
This contradicts any religious ideology.
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That just pretty much described science.
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Just read the wiki page of the MP.
"The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts."
This contradicts any religious ideology.
All religions work like that, from the inside. Only the unbelievers think the logic is faulty.
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Not true at all. Granted, some religions might proclaim certain facts. But most, if not all of them, also realize that at the root of it all, religion is separate from reason. There are "leaps of faith in all religions", and that's an arguably indivisible part of their definition.
On a very basic level, I think that religion's basis comes from belief, while reason is based on observations and a priori elements.
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Not true at all. Granted, some religions might proclaim certain facts. But most, if not all of them, also realize that at the root of it all, religion is separate from reason. There are "leaps of faith in all religions", and that's an arguably indivisible part of their definition.
On a very basic level, I think that religion's basis comes from belief, while reason is based on observations and a priori elements.
That's not a very SMA attitude! Today, I can agree with you on this, but if we discuss this it should be in the OOC thread. In the middle ages, the existence of God was very much a proved fact and the basis of all science.
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That's not a very SMA attitude! Today, I can agree with you on this, but if we discuss this it should be in the OOC thread. In the middle ages, the existence of God was very much a proved fact and the basis of all science.
My thought exactly.
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In terms of SMA? Stepwise logic, or going in sequence proving each point along the way, would either be an artifact of Greek tradition, or a contemporary method. Actually, it is fairly old (duh, ancient Greeks?) but never, to my knowledge, was it ever part of any religion's method of teachings. No matter whether the religion saw its logic as infallible. They simply did not teach that method of proving/supporting each step to the conclusion. Most of them had an observation/proclamation, and from there went to a conclusion (very simple interpretation).
It's not that religion and reason cannot coexist. It was simply that for all European religions, as far as I know, none of them espoused the use of reason to explain the divine, or even to make sense of it. None of them attempted to apply human logic to their beliefs. At least purely in the Middle Ages I am fairly confident this was the case. Let's go find some theologians and Medieval studies doctorates to explain better.
To give it my very concise summary though: I think MP describes a system of reason, not a system of belief. Religion is the latter.
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I'm not a theologian myself, so feel free to point otherwise if I am wrong, but as far as I understand it, St Thomas of Aquinas is a fine example of "the use of reason to explain the divine, or even to make sense of it".
From the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomism):
"St. Thomas Aquinas believed that truth is true wherever it is found, and thus consulted Greek, Roman, Jewish, and Muslim philosophers. Specifically, he was a realist (i.e., he, unlike the skeptics, believed that the world can be known as it is). He largely followed Aristotelian terminology and metaphysics, and wrote comprehensive commentaries on Aristotle, often affirming Aristotle's views with independent arguments. Thomas respectfully referred to Aristotle simply as "the Philosopher." He also adhered to some neoplatonic principles, for example that "it is absolutely true that there is first something which is essentially being and essentially good, which we call God, ... [and that] everything can be called good and a being, inasmuch as it participates in it by way of a certain assimilation..."
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We could probably spend a long time splitting hairs over the details about the different variations on religious belief in Medieval Europe. The article does bring in some interesting points, but still has some divine phenomenon (God) in its place as core of all its beliefs. Maybe I should have stated my earlier argument better. A religion can continue to exist as a religion even if it does not incorporate reason at all. I don't know any real world examples I can think of immediately, but something that says "This is what was written, now believe it" would count as such a religion. (Actually, I am aware that some might point out that even that has a very basic line of logic. The qualifier for belief is "This is what was written", therefore, "Believe it". I suppose if we were really to get technical about it, an example would be a bunch of stuff written down, and without even the reason that it is what is written, the religion simply demands that you believe it...because it's true, which in itself then becomes an element of reason. I will just stop this line here and say that I am not so much concerned about the very fine details of what extent of reason we are talking about, and just say that I hope you get my point. Religion doesn't need to have a bunch of conclusions from observations or intuition in order to count as a religion.) Also, the simple act of exercising reason, whether it be by some form of logic, or some other means, is not alone enough to count something as a religion. What exactly constitutes a religion then? That's an interesting topic, no doubt, and I'm sure there are more pages with many words on the subject.
If we read MP as saying that it recognizes the existence of inhuman entities, but later says: "No faith should be put in anything non-human, and we must fight for our own place in the world.", then this makes it a truly odd religion. That single sentence can be up for a lot of dispute about just what it means, in fact. Is it saying not to worship inhuman things? So would faith in other humans work? Ancestor worship? Idolatry in human arts?
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Pythagoras would also disagree about there being a difference between science and religion, as would a number of Catholic Church sponsored scientists, who would tell you that their discoveries led to a greater understanding of God's wonders.
tMP does have indefensible leaps of faith. It just does its best to disguise them as logical progressions.
And yes, Artemesia, the point of that line is to say that inhuman entities should not be trusted or relied on, much less worshiped.
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I am not saying at all that science and religion don't mix. But I am among the group that sees a clear distinction between what religion is and what science is. I think that without beliefs, a religion cannot be called a religion, but that also does not make the only element that religion requires in order to exist as "religion", nor do I claim that it is the only critical element, without which, a religion cannot be called a religion, but instead maybe a school of philosophy. I think that without empirical evidence and logic that limits itself to that evidence, science would not exist as science.
Anyway, that still doesn't answer whether ancestor worship is ok, or worshiping other living humans. Maybe there's another part that says it, but hey, I'm not the guy who made it up, so I can't know what was intended by the words.
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Also, MP is based on 3 facts. Which makes the prophet more a filosopher than an actual prophet. In other words, you convey rational teachings in stead of theological teachings. Which distinguishes MP from actual religions. If you would read the wiki page without knowing that it is a religion, I would say it is a guild, dedicated to unite humanity against the scourge that plagues human civilazation.
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... inhuman entities should not be trusted or relied on, much less worshiped.
If you're not worshiping the gods, then you're not a religion.
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Sanguis Astroism? Though I suppose one could say that is worship of divine entities.
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Maybe I should have stated my earlier argument better. A religion can continue to exist as a religion even if it does not incorporate reason at all. I don't know any real world examples I can think of immediately, but something that says "This is what was written, now believe it" would count as such a religion.
Oh, sure! My point is that something that does not say that can also count.
If we read MP as saying that it recognizes the existence of inhuman entities, but later says: "No faith should be put in anything non-human, and we must fight for our own place in the world.", then this makes it a truly odd religion. That single sentence can be up for a lot of dispute about just what it means, in fact.
I don't see what's really odd in that; most religions basic tenets can be read in may ways. This is pretty much the standard method to get everyone to agree with you: be vague enough.
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If you're not worshiping the gods, then you're not a religion.
Would it help if tMP had "Humans will become godlike with sufficient effort" as a basic tenet?
Or even straight out "I am a God, so worship me, and so can you!"? Although that one already exists, I think.
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Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods. Nor are they ever known to have manifested as physical beings. Yet SA is devoted to their worship and the advancement of their goals.
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Would it help if tMP had "Humans will become godlike with sufficient effort" as a basic tenet?
Or even straight out "I am a God, so worship me, and so can you!"? Although that one already exists, I think.
I believe that particular belief is commonly referred to as 'Amaurism' 8)
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If you're not worshiping the gods, then you're not a religion.
Again, Buddhism? Wether that religion is SMA or not, your definition of a religion holds flaws...
PS: 'reason' in Greek times wasn't atheist either.
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Again, Buddhism? Wether that religion is SMA or not, your definition of a religion holds flaws...
PS: 'reason' in Greek times wasn't atheist either.
Reason wasn't, but neither were the priests of Apollo or whatever god you want to name in the pantheon keen on using Socrates' (or whatever philosopher you want to name) methods to contemplate what their gods' whims were.
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Also, MP is based on 3 facts. Which makes the prophet more a filosopher than an actual prophet. In other words, you convey rational teachings in stead of theological teachings. Which distinguishes MP from actual religions. If you would read the wiki page without knowing that it is a religion, I would say it is a guild, dedicated to unite humanity against the scourge that plagues human civilazation.
Look up Confucianism. While some pedants insist it isn't a "religion" it functions as one for the purposes of Battlemaster and many countries. tMP is certainly as much of a religion as Confucianism is (or, I should say, it will be once tMP has more time to get established and get more of the belief system down). Yes, it's another eastern-style religion, but I'm getting annoyed at people insisting this isn't a religion at all, when it's goals, methods and practices are game mechanically religious and it matches at least one (and I would argue more) major world religion.
As for whether it fits as a Western religion, I still hold that the realities of the BM world can and should trump SMA, and that the Fourth Invasion in particular makes a misotheist (against the gods) religion permissible.
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It's not a reality on Dwilight though. Yeah, I know, continents aren't isolated in vacuums. In this case, the Light is a rumor to all but those on BT. For that matter, Archons are only stories that existed in stories on BT. Sure, your characters can claim all they want that such things exist, but where can we find them on Dwilight?
Dwilight guy: "You say monsters and undead exist? Of course, they are a regular occurrence in these wild lands. You want to say daimons exist? Well, yes, in the shadow of Volcano Nightscree are all sorts of terrifying horrors. You say there is some force that is powered by human faith, with the ability to bring down shafts of light that wipe away daimons, monsters, and undead, and are recharged faster by human life force? Uh, sorry, but you want to direct me to where and when that ever happened on Dwilight? I know, you come from Beluaterra, good for you. I hear stories too, and some come from respectable and trustworthy sources. But you know, you're telling me to believe what you say, something I've never witnessed before, and I don't think any of my ancestors, or anyone who has lived on Dwilight all his life, has ever witnessed either."
Ah, and there you have what I think is the foundation of your religion. Your followers must accept the belief, on faith, that such things as the Light exist. It's like the real world prophets too. How do we know they witnessed what they said? We simply believe it.
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Reason wasn't, but neither were the priests of Apollo or whatever god you want to name in the pantheon keen on using Socrates' (or whatever philosopher you want to name) methods to contemplate what their gods' whims were.
And what of it? The greeks knew their gods were !@#$%^&s, and they didn't make any excuses for them.
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This argument excluding religion as a system of reason is complete bollox.
Hey, guys, if religion is not a system of reason, where do you suppose the justification for the Hindu caste system developed? It certainly didn't develop from something outside the religion.
There is a very simple fact that all of the MP detractors seem to be missing entirely: religion shapes, defines, and controls the way a person thinks. The way a person reasons. To say that because a religion does this it is not a religion, frankly, is stupid. If you want to find some reason to hate on MP, this is not it.
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It's not a reality on Dwilight though. Yeah, I know, continents aren't isolated in vacuums. In this case, the Light is a rumor to all but those on BT. For that matter, Archons are only stories that existed in stories on BT. Sure, your characters can claim all they want that such things exist, but where can we find them on Dwilight?
Dwilight guy: "You say monsters and undead exist? Of course, they are a regular occurrence in these wild lands. You want to say daimons exist? Well, yes, in the shadow of Volcano Nightscree are all sorts of terrifying horrors. You say there is some force that is powered by human faith, with the ability to bring down shafts of light that wipe away daimons, monsters, and undead, and are recharged faster by human life force? Uh, sorry, but you want to direct me to where and when that ever happened on Dwilight? I know, you come from Beluaterra, good for you. I hear stories too, and some come from respectable and trustworthy sources. But you know, you're telling me to believe what you say, something I've never witnessed before, and I don't think any of my ancestors, or anyone who has lived on Dwilight all his life, has ever witnessed either."
Ah, and there you have what I think is the foundation of your religion. Your followers must accept the belief, on faith, that such things as the Light exist. It's like the real world prophets too. How do we know they witnessed what they said? We simply believe it.
We also believe on faith that the Divine exist, though we have never seen them. We have believe that their goals do not coincide with the well being of humanity, against ample evidence that could be provided by the other religions of the island.
Also the religion was founded by families that had or had prominent members on BT, thus at least at the higher levels of the religion we are more inclined to believe the "rumours" If those we interact with want to treat them as unsubstantiated, well great RP for the win.
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. John 20:29
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Look up Confucianism. While some pedants insist it isn't a "religion" it functions as one for the purposes of Battlemaster and many countries. tMP is certainly as much of a religion as Confucianism is (or, I should say, it will be once tMP has more time to get established and get more of the belief system down). Yes, it's another eastern-style religion, but I'm getting annoyed at people insisting this isn't a religion at all, when it's goals, methods and practices are game mechanically religious and it matches at least one (and I would argue more) major world religion.
As for whether it fits as a Western religion, I still hold that the realities of the BM world can and should trump SMA, and that the Fourth Invasion in particular makes a misotheist (against the gods) religion permissible.
"Confucianism is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K'ung-fu-tzu, lit. "Master Kong", 551–478 BC)."
I would be one of those pedants you disparage. It does many things that religions do, but so do ideologies like Communism. In my book, it's still missing something.
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Look up Confucianism. While some pedants insist it isn't a "religion" it functions as one for the purposes of Battlemaster and many countries. tMP is certainly as much of a religion as Confucianism is (or, I should say, it will be once tMP has more time to get established and get more of the belief system down). Yes, it's another eastern-style religion, but I'm getting annoyed at people insisting this isn't a religion at all, when it's goals, methods and practices are game mechanically religious and it matches at least one (and I would argue more) major world religion.
As for whether it fits as a Western religion, I still hold that the realities of the BM world can and should trump SMA, and that the Fourth Invasion in particular makes a misotheist (against the gods) religion permissible.
I did as you asked, and read about Confucianism in English and my native laguage, and here is something interesting I found which I will try to translate as correct as possible.:
"Religion or philosophy?
On whether Confucianism is a religion or a philosophical system, there is no consensus. If one defines "religion" as the worship of a supreme being, Confucianism is not a religion. Confucius, for example, did not address the human soul, human nature or the afterlife. If one follows this definition, one can also argue that neither Buddhism nor Taoism are by definition religions. When religion is seen as a belief system with its own view of humanity and its place in the universe than Confucianism and Buddhism and Taoism meet with the definition."
I think that Tom clearly defined Europian-styled SMA-based religions as the first. Meaning that the MP has no place on Dwilight as a religion.
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There is a very simple fact that all of the MP detractors seem to be missing entirely: religion shapes, defines, and controls the way a person thinks. The way a person reasons. To say that because a religion does this it is not a religion, frankly, is stupid. If you want to find some reason to hate on MP, this is not it.
So do political ideologies like Communism and Facism. So, for that matter, does public education. And the media. Yet I hear no one arguing that they are religions. The cultural influence of a religion is only one part of what makes it a religion. There's more to it than that, and my opinion remains that MP is missing something.
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So do political ideologies like Communism and Facism. So, for that matter, does public education. And the media. Yet I hear no one arguing that they are religions. The cultural influence of a religion is only one part of what makes it a religion. There's more to it than that, and my opinion remains that MP is missing something.
One thing to remember about the Manifest path is that we don't deny the existence of divine figures separate to the "rogue" forces. In fact their existence is core to our beliefs. Were we differ is instead of thinking that one particular group of deities aids humanity, or at least the sub set of humanity that we care about, we see them as powerful but at best disinterested beings. At worst they actively seek to destroy us, and I guess most of them we think just enjoy toying with us for their own pleasure.
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One thing to remember about the Manifest path is that we don't deny the existence of divine figures separate to the "rogue" forces. In fact their existence is core to our beliefs. Were we differ is instead of thinking that one particular group of deities aids humanity, or at least the sub set of humanity that we care about, we see them as powerful but at best disinterested beings. At worst they actively seek to destroy us, and I guess most of them we think just enjoy toying with us for their own pleasure.
Except that the entities at the core of MP's philosophies are indisputably real, which makes MP's beliefs a matter of politics instead of faith. "Not denying" the existence of deities other than those entities is not the same thing as having faith in their existence. All you're saying is that "if they do exist, they're probably bad too". MP is secular at heart, being an organization designed to propound a worldview that is at its heart political, not spiritual.
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Again, Buddhism?
Which is an eastern philosophy/religion, which has quite clearly been ruled as not OK for Dwilight. So any argument on the validity of tMP which is based on "But Buddhism does it" is invalid.
I'm not getting involved in a discussion about what constitutes an RL religion or not. (And yes, there are people who believe that Buddhism, and other such religions are not really "religions". I personally don't know, as I'm not really qualified to have that discussion, as I'm guessing most of us aren't.) I am solely discussing BattleMaster religions, specifically as relates to Dwilight and SMA. You can worship anything you want, even pastries if you so wish, on any other island. But on Dwilight there are stricter rules that need to be followed.
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Which is an eastern philosophy/religion, which has quite clearly been ruled as not OK for Dwilight. So any argument on the validity of tMP which is based on "But Buddhism does it" is invalid.
I'm not getting involved in a discussion about what constitutes an RL religion or not. (And yes, there are people who believe that Buddhism, and other such religions are not really "religions". I personally don't know, as I'm not really qualified to have that discussion, as I'm guessing most of us aren't.) I am solely discussing BattleMaster religions, specifically as relates to Dwilight and SMA. You can worship anything you want, even pastries if you so wish, on any other island. But on Dwilight there are stricter rules that need to be followed.
Christianity is HEAVILY based on middle eastern traditions and ideology though, so really the line between Western and Eastern religions is not a clear cut as we might believe.
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I am very unfamiliar with eastern philosophy/religion. Done some reading (late at night.. ;)). And I must say that while Buddhism does not worship divine beings, it is very spiritual. Just some key-words: Rebirth, karma, hel and heaven (cosmos), 'Devas'. And if the MP wants to distinquish themselves as a nontheistic religion, I am still missing the spirituality. But that does not change the fact that nontheistic religions contradict with the SMA-rule.
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Christianity is HEAVILY based on middle eastern traditions and ideology though, so really the line between Western and Eastern religions is not a clear cut as we might believe.
I'll take your word on that. I don't know. But that doesn't change the fact that Easter-style philosophy/religions are not OK for Dwilight.
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I am very unfamiliar with eastern philosophy/religion. Done some reading (late at night.. ;)). And I must say that while Buddhism does not worship divine beings, it is very spiritual. Just some key-words: Rebirth, karma, hel and heaven (cosmos), 'Devas'. And if the MP wants to distinquish themselves as a nontheistic religion, I am still missing the spirituality. But that does not change the fact that nontheistic religions contradict with the SMA-rule.
Yes we are in the process of updating the wiki page to reflect some of the spiritual beliefs of the Manifest Path. Interesting thing to note, very few religions have EVERY aspect or even the majority of the beliefs of their faith on the wiki. How much of the SA beliefs and arguments are never documented on the wiki?
By the way Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. We believe MANY deities exist. n a more specific sense, theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God. You want to rid Dwlight of all non-monotheistic religions any time soon?
We mostly just not that fond of them, though we already have one sizable sect that worships a deity. There is no rule against worshipping deities within the Manifest Path, we simply don't have a deity that all followers must follow, and we have some restriction on what constitutes a deity that doesn't conflict with the goals of the order.
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The Manifest Path follows a teaching something like Deism. The difference is that we believe there are two kinds of Deity, those that actively intefere with the world, and those that fit the Deism model of being all powerful but largely does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. The first group are generally seen as a threat to humanity, while the second set are those that we have so far accepted within the religion.
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I think that Tom clearly defined Europian-styled SMA-based religions as the first. Meaning that the MP has no place on Dwilight as a religion.
Feel free to quote him, then, because I remember no such thing.
No major middle-ages European religion worshiped three stars. No major middle-ages European religion worshiped the five elements. No major middle-ages European religion worshiped a nature goddess of reincarnation and enlightenment. No major middle-ages European religion was based around fulfilling your own personal destiny because of what a star whispered to you in your dreams.
Those are the religions currently on Dwilight besides tMP. None of them have the slightest bit of anything to do with the Abrahamic religions, which were the religions of consequence in medieval Europe.
The Catechism of Sanguis Astroism says that the stars influence the movements of blood in humans, and that the point of the religion is to seek spiritual health by maintaining harmony with the Bloodstars and understanding the hidden movements of your blood. Does that sound, I don't know, like a reasoning based on observed physical phenomenon to improve yourself? The Bloodstars follow fixed patterns in waxing and waning, and to achieve greater spiritual enlightenment is to live your life according to that cycle because that is harmonious because the Bloodstars are physically and spiritually acting in our world.
That's not a set of deities that any European would recognize. That's a natural phenomenon that has a set pattern that influences the world. http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Sanguis_Astroism/Writings is where I'm getting my info beyond the Catechism on.
And you can say that some people in Sanguis Astroism believe they are deities, that's fine. Some of the followers of tMP believe in Tyr and Ziza too.
Here's a quote from Tom, from the d-list, 1/13/08, Re: [Discuss] Dwilight - non-european realm/religion concepts:
"No, and you can easily make 20 different religions just on variations of
the abrahamic ones.
I didn't say it has to be a copy. It just has to have the "feel". What's
the "feel" of the european middle ages church? Huge cathedrals,
crusades, witch hunts, pious monks, remote monasteries, fervered
discussions over scripture interpretations, a church in every village -
take your pick, choose what you like best, turn it into an in-game
religion. There is more than enough material there."
There are a couple ways to interpret that. One is that Dwilight religions should have the feel of an Abrahamic religion. Not a single religion on Dwilight has anything remotely like the theology of an Abrahamic religion, so I think we can ignore that.
The other main way I can see to interpret it is to take the idea that religion should be more important than almost everything else, should have grand edifices devoted to it, should be intolerant, should be actively spreading to remote corners of the world, etc. so as to preserve the feel of a religion-dominated continent.
The Manifest Path doesn't fit in the first interpretation, but neither do any of the other religion on the continent. The Manifest Path does or will fit in the second interpretation.
And for the last time, it is not atheist or nontheist! It is, as someone pointed out before, misotheist (anti-theist) with a strong dash of deism. Read up on how the Roman religion functioned. There were lots and lots of gods, they didn't care who you worshiped so long as you did it through the proper authorities and your worship didn't violate their core tenets.
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Not gonna lie, I did not read this entire discussion. But I will make a few comments that may already have been made:
1. Indirik said it right: if the argument is "Buddhism does it" or "Confucianism does it," that's a bad reason. BM is not a China simulator. It's indisputably Western-oriented. QED.
2. The idea that "deities are allowed, but not really a necessary part of our religion." Is hardly sufficient. That just means you're still only an ideology, but a non-totalizing one: you allow people some ideological freedom, but you still aren't a religion.
3. There is a solution: the Light. Make a prophesy about the light and demand people believe it. Or theologize it in some way. Conceptualize it into some internalized driving force of anti-monster virtue. Make it into an embodiment of the power of the soul. You do need a theology, and, conveniently, you already have one! The Light! Build on it! Theologize the Archons. They are a distant story based in fact: treat the Light the way that Christianity treated Jesus. Messianic! Coming again! Will redeem us after certain signs of the end grow near! A power that burns within! Do something with it.
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Oh, one final possibly offensive note:
This Tyr and Zisa crap is getting old. I swear like 7 religions have pirated those IC deities now and re-used them over and over again. It was a dumb importation and misrepresentation of dubiously historical religious practices the first time, and it's redundant now the fiftieth it's redundant now the fiftieth.
It makes me want to start a religion about Jesus and Mary, and then claim it's all IC.
So that's how I really feel.
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Oh, one final possibly offensive note:
This Tyr and Zisa crap is getting old. I swear like 7 religions have pirated those IC deities now and re-used them over and over again. It was a dumb importation and misrepresentation of dubiously historical religious practices the first time, and it's redundant now the fiftieth it's redundant now the fiftieth.
It makes me want to start a religion about Jesus and Mary, and then claim it's all IC.
So that's how I really feel.
Yes but in our case, it is because a pre-existing Tyr religion joined with us. We didn't exactly choose to keep them or add them to our religion, we simply swallowed up a group that already had a theology around them.
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Not gonna lie, I did not read this entire discussion. But I will make a few comments that may already have been made:
1. Indirik said it right: if the argument is "Buddhism does it" or "Confucianism does it," that's a bad reason. BM is not a China simulator. It's indisputably Western-oriented. QED.
2. The idea that "deities are allowed, but not really a necessary part of our religion." Is hardly sufficient. That just means you're still only an ideology, but a non-totalizing one: you allow people some ideological freedom, but you still aren't a religion.
3. There is a solution: the Light. Make a prophesy about the light and demand people believe it. Or theologize it in some way. Conceptualize it into some internalized driving force of anti-monster virtue. Make it into an embodiment of the power of the soul. You do need a theology, and, conveniently, you already have one! The Light! Build on it! Theologize the Archons. They are a distant story based in fact: treat the Light the way that Christianity treated Jesus. Messianic! Coming again! Will redeem us after certain signs of the end grow near! A power that burns within! Do something with it.
And like Matt points out, there isn't a SINGLE religion on Dwilight that doesn't on the surface borrow concepts from eastern religions. The worship of stars or the belief that they influence us for example conjures up links to various eastern astrology cults to me.
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So do political ideologies like Communism and Facism. So, for that matter, does public education. And the media. Yet I hear no one arguing that they are religions. The cultural influence of a religion is only one part of what makes it a religion. There's more to it than that, and my opinion remains that MP is missing something.
You're not getting ^ban^'s point. Saying tMP can't be a religion because it does something that all religions do is silly. Yes, other things do it too, but there are several people saying that tMP's subtle attempt to construct a reality where everything that it states is a logical extension of facts means it can't be a religion, which is silliness, because there are religions that do that.
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I'm sorry, has Tom even said he doesn't approve of the Manifest Path? Because if he hasn't, who gives a flying rats backside what anybody else thinks? Besides Tom, there really isn't anybody whose opinion matters.
If you don't approve of the MP, and you aren't Tom, get over it.
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To me, it looks like MP deifies humans. It divides the world into Human and not Human, and says that we must seek to further ourselves. Same sort of stream as confucianism (Cosmic Order, yada yada).
Religions can be broadly separated into Abrahamic, Indian, East Asian, Shamanistic, and New Age. Abrahamic religions, looking back to the time of ancient israelite religion, stresses the choice between good and evil and the supremacy of God. Now, to stretch this out to SMA we could say that morality should play a major role in SMA religions.
And if you look at the religions on dwilight, they do tend to be highly moralistic; Eleryonism says you need to follow your destiny from the star Eleryon (so to not follow is misguided and ignorant, read sinful), Estianism means you must find harmony with nature (to not be harmonious is to be burdened with rebirth, sinful), SA has you seeking to control the influence of the stars (to succumb to their influence renders you mad, sinful), Hredmonoth had you obey the Dethgodas (anything else was uncivilized, sinful), Torenism worshipped that which gave you power over others (To be weak was sinful).
Verdis Elementum I'm having a little trouble fitting in, and Triunism doesn't have enough on the wiki (but does look very interesting i'd love to have one of my characters meet one of the priests)
So, as for MP, it's very shady on morality. It's more of a humans must prevail philosophic East Asian type faith.
Where does ancient Greek religion stand in SMA, by the way? I think it would be classified as shamanistic and ignorning its obvious connections to Europe, I don't think it would fit.
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To me, it looks like MP deifies humans. It divides the world into Human and not Human, and says that we must seek to further ourselves. Same sort of stream as confucianism (Cosmic Order, yada yada).
Religions can be broadly separated into Abrahamic, Indian, East Asian, Shamanistic, and New Age. Abrahamic religions, looking back to the time of ancient israelite religion, stresses the choice between good and evil and the supremacy of God. Now, to stretch this out to SMA we could say that morality should play a major role in SMA religions.
And if you look at the religions on dwilight, they do tend to be highly moralistic; Eleryonism says you need to follow your destiny from the star Eleryon (so to not follow is misguided and ignorant, read sinful), Estianism means you must find harmony with nature (to not be harmonious is to be burdened with rebirth, sinful), SA has you seeking to control the influence of the stars (to succumb to their influence renders you mad, sinful), Hredmonoth had you obey the Dethgodas (anything else was uncivilized, sinful), Torenism worshipped that which gave you power over others (To be weak was sinful).
Verdis Elementum I'm having a little trouble fitting in, and Triunism doesn't have enough on the wiki (but does look very interesting i'd love to have one of my characters meet one of the priests)
So, as for MP, it's very shady on morality. It's more of a humans must prevail philosophic East Asian type faith.
Where does ancient Greek religion stand in SMA, by the way? I think it would be classified as shamanistic and ignorning its obvious connections to Europe, I don't think it would fit.
in cases like this, the wiki is great
"There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results."
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During the Middle Ages (the 5th century to 15th century), Europe was in the process of being Christianized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization#Christianization_of_Europe_.287th-15th_centuries.29); so-called pagan beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism#Ethnic_religions_of_pre-Christian_Europe) still existed in many places at various points throughout the medieval period, though most of these had disappeared by the end of it. The most well-known of these would probably be Norse paganism.
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@ Bedwyr: I believe the wiki is very clear about asian and american inspired religions. They disturb the SMA enviroment. Yet I only heard about existing asian religions to justify the MP as a religion. Personally, I am not convinced that the MP even is a religion. That aside, it raises the question if it is appropriate within the SMA enviroment.
Please justify why the MP is appropriate on Dwilight without criticizing other religions on Dwilight.
Also, you quoted Tom, but he does not speak of the abrahamic monetheistic theology.
And aren't misotheism and deism philosophies applied on existing religions? I am no expert in either one of them, but I see them as sub-cultures of real religions. And isn't deism simular to the 'Enlightenment', which is a concept of the 18th century.
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Please justify why the MP is appropriate on Dwilight without criticizing other religions on Dwilight.
We could all wait and do nothing and see if Tom agrees or not. But, this is a discussion forum. I think it is perfectly appropriate to compare a new religion to existing ones; I also think that if you plan to create a new religion and wonder if it will be acceptable, the best thing you can do is to inspire yourself from what already exists so as to fit within the overall experience of the game.
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I'm sorry, has Tom even said he doesn't approve of the Manifest Path? Because if he hasn't, who gives a flying rats backside what anybody else thinks? Besides Tom, there really isn't anybody whose opinion matters.
If you don't approve of the MP, and you aren't Tom, get over it.
This. Unless you have suddenly become the embodiment of Tom, and know his innermost thoughts and feelings, then please stop acting like you know what he will do.
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@ Bedwyr: I believe the wiki is very clear about asian and american inspired religions. They disturb the SMA enviroment. Yet I only heard about existing asian religions to justify the MP as a religion. Personally, I am not convinced that the MP even is a religion. That aside, it raises the question if it is appropriate within the SMA enviroment.
Please justify why the MP is appropriate on Dwilight without criticizing other religions on Dwilight.
Also, you quoted Tom, but he does not speak of the abrahamic monetheistic theology.
And aren't misotheism and deism philosophies applied on existing religions? I am no expert in either one of them, but I see them as sub-cultures of real religions. And isn't deism simular to the 'Enlightenment', which is a concept of the 18th century.
Indeed the wiki is
"Non-European Realm/Religion Concepts
While these are acceptable on other islands, we are very, very sceptical about them on any island where we are looking for a serious medieval atmosphere. Some will be ok, a little bit of orient can spice things up, but the vast majority would only dilute and disturb the atmosphere. That goes especially for any asian or american concepts. Basically anything that the middle ages did not have much contact with. Again, there are other islands in BattleMaster where these ideas can be explored."
The crux would be defining what a "little" eastern influence is.
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This. Unless you have suddenly become the embodiment of Tom, and know his innermost thoughts and feelings, then please stop acting like you know what he will do.
Let them have their fun. They're not hurting anyone and it makes a nice change to the normal "SA rules." "No it doesn't" "Yes it does" crap. :)
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If Tom says all religions should be like in medieval times, there's really only one religion to base all religions upon: Christianity. Although there were other religions ("pagan practices" as we know them) the one and only major religion in medieval Europe was Catholicism. So, drawing that line further, all religions in BM would be pretty much the same (monotheistic).
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This. Unless you have suddenly become the embodiment of Tom, and know his innermost thoughts and feelings, then please stop acting like you know what he will do.
He actually said nothing about what Tom would do, simply that when the issue is a SMA thing, Toms ruling is probably required, and everyone else's opinion will have little bearing on the outcome.
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We could all wait and do nothing and see if Tom agrees or not. But, this is a discussion forum. I think it is perfectly appropriate to compare a new religion to existing ones; I also think that if you plan to create a new religion and wonder if it will be acceptable, the best thing you can do is to inspire yourself from what already exists so as to fit within the overall experience of the game.
But that did not happened. Bedwyr used an argument that comes down to: All the other religions on Dwilight do not meet the guidelines, so why should we? While I respect Bedwyr's opinion, it remains his opinion. And I am certain the creators/prophets, priests and perhaps followers of the other religion can give valid argument why their religion does meet the SMA-guidelines. And the MP is being questioned here, and I would like to hear why they are an appropriate religion for Dwilight. By criticizing the other religions instead, this debate is not moving forewards.
If Tom says all religions should be like in medieval times, there's really only one religion to base all religions upon: Christianity. Although there were other religions ("pagan practices" as we know them) the one and only major religion in medieval Europe was Catholicism. So, drawing that line further, all religions in BM would be pretty much the same (monotheistic).
I believe it is also a general guideline for all BM worlds not to base your religion too much at existing ones such as christianity, because it might be offensive or otherwise hurtful to those player who do believe in Christ.
And from the wiki: "There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results. "
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But that did not happened. Bedwyr used an argument that comes down to: All the other religions on Dwilight do not meet the guidelines, so why should we? While I respect Bedwyr's opinion, it remains his opinion. And I am certain the creators/prophets, priests and perhaps followers of the other religion can give valid argument why their religion does meet the SMA-guidelines. And the MP is being questioned here, and I would like to hear why they are an appropriate religion for Dwilight. By criticizing the other religions instead, this debate is not moving forewards.
I believe it is also a general guideline for all BM worlds not to base your religion too much at existing ones such as christianity, because it might be offensive or otherwise hurtful to those player who do believe in Christ.
And from the wiki: "There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results. "
That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree. Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.
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Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.
I believe that came about because of the way that Morek's core regions are named - Donghaiwei, Zhongyuan, Bohai, Taishan... etc. However, since the actual culture of the realm did not change with the name and was still rooted in the great religious knightly orders of the middle ages, I think it's a major stretch to argue that because of the name alone it violated SMA...
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I believe that came about because of the way that Morek's core regions are named - Donghaiwei, Zhongyuan, Bohai, Taishan... etc. However, since the actual culture of the realm did not change with the name and was still rooted in the great religious knightly orders of the middle ages, I think it's a major stretch to argue that because of the name alone it violated SMA...
To new players and those outside the realm, the name is one of the most visible things.
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That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree.
Indeed.
Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.
That's taking SMA a little far. There is a region called Dantooine..... and nothing trumps game mechanics.
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Indeed.
That's taking SMA a little far. There is a region called Dantooine..... and nothing trumps game mechanics.
Best not to get me started on some of the region names on Dwilight. Even without the obvious references, simply naming regions with a oriental flavor seems to fly in the face of what SMA is trying to do, but then I understand that the regions were named before SMA was applied.
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That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree. Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.
It is a very simple question. Is the MP appropriate for Dwilight as a religion? Yes or No. Of course, with a motivation of your answer based on the theology of the MP, and not on the validity of the other religions.
Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?
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It is a very simple question. Is the MP appropriate for Dwilight as a religion? Yes or No. Of course, with a motivation of your answer based on the theology of the MP, and not on the validity of the other religions.
Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?
Because it does have a spiritual message, is not "based" on a asian religion, is simply has parallels to that. Most importantly, as has been stated several time in this thread, the Manifest Path does not exclude worship of the divine, and in fact already has a sizable sect that worships Tyr.
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It is a very simple question. Is the MP appropriate for Dwilight as a religion? Yes or No. Of course, with a motivation of your answer based on the theology of the MP, and not on the validity of the other religions.
Yes. It is Serious. It is Medieval. It adds to the Atmosphere.
I feel your criticism is that it is not medieval. I disagree. Clearly, SMA does not mean "exactly like christianism", I argue that it can be medieval enough, based on what I understand to be enough looking at the other existing accepted religions.
Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?
Neither would you change my view by criticising other religions not on Dwilight!
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For the last and hopefully final time, MP acknowledges the existance of deities/gods. Anyone who says it doesn't has obviously not been doing their research and should not start saying this and that about the religion.
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Regarding my research, I have read it all. The whole discussion from the beginning until the end, and a lot of wikipedia pages, just to name a few: Misotheism, Deism, Theism, Nontheism, Buddism, Confucianism. And not only in English, but also in my native language. Therefore, I am certainly not saying that they do not acknowledge divine entities. They reason upon the existance of the beings greater than humanity inclining that all facts of their existance points out that they are a threat to humanity, with a need or desire to consume human beings. Bedwyr said that the MP is misotheistic combined with a deistic filosophy. Misotheism blandly means: hatred of God(s). Inclining to me that you do not trust and disgust all that is considered divine or more powerful than humans. That would contradict with saying, some of us worship Tyr. I assume that Tyr is some kind of divine being? And it also is no divine law to worship anything. Also the following is interesting: "The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts." That is part of the deism filosophy, a relatively modern filosophy. If that is considered SMA, than atheism shouldn't be a problem on Dwilight. But we all know Tom's opinion about atheism, and that applies to all BM Worlds. I say this to emphasize what I have said earlier: Where do we draw the line between what is and what is not acceptable on Dwilight?
Yes. It is Serious. It is Medieval. It adds to the Atmosphere.
Oh My God. That is the only answer I have on that. Please read: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/SMA#Non-European_Realm.2FReligion_Concepts (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/SMA#Non-European_Realm.2FReligion_Concepts)
That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree.
If the first is the case, we should dedicate a whole new topic to this problem in order to restore the SMA balance. And we should not harm the balance any further with new religions who do not contribute to the SMA. On the other hand, claiming that non of the current religions (including MP) break the SMA (or only in a small degree), then please explain to me how a mix of deism, confucianism and misotheism filosophy fits into the Serious Medieval Atmosphere of Dwilight.
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Yes. It is Serious. It is Medieval. It adds to the Atmosphere.
So would have the Blood Cult. It was dead-serious, promoted a system closer to british feudalism than many european systems, was from about the same time period, and was all about giving religion the role it deserved in the societies of the days.
I don't see how MP is any more SMA than the Blood Cult would have been. Mind you, I never favoured the euro-centric SMA tenant, and have always believed it made the experience poorer instead of richer.
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So would have the Blood Cult. It was dead-serious, promoted a system closer to british feudalism than many european systems, was from about the same time period, and was all about giving religion the role it deserved in the societies of the days.
I don't see how MP is any more SMA than the Blood Cult would have been. Mind you, I never favoured the euro-centric SMA tenant, and have always believed it made the experience poorer instead of richer.
If I remember and understand Tom's issues with the Blood Cult correctly, his objection was to the names, not the substance.
Change the names in the BC to be more medieval-fantasy and less Mesoamerica, and I'd say there'd be no problem with putting it on Dwilight.
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If I remember and understand Tom's issues with the Blood Cult correctly, his objection was to the names, not the substance.
Change the names in the BC to be more medieval-fantasy and less Mesoamerica, and I'd say there'd be no problem with putting it on Dwilight.
If I remember correctly, this was not the case. It really was that he wanted european-inspired religions and cultures. At least, if it was only about the names, then I was never told, and that's not really something I was inflexible about.
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If I remember and understand Tom's issues with the Blood Cult correctly, his objection was to the names, not the substance.
Change the names in the BC to be more medieval-fantasy and less Mesoamerica, and I'd say there'd be no problem with putting it on Dwilight.
That was also my understanding, the basic concepts were acceptable but the use of Mesoamerican names was not.
Galvez, the Manifest Path separates the divine into two groups. The ones Bedwyr refers to as a threat to humanity are those that seek to actively intervene in the affairs of our physical world. The second are like Tyr, who concern themselves with a spiritual world or afterlife and do not meddle in our world. The second type can be worshipped within the context of the religion, Tyr was the deity of a early PeL religion.
"The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts." Actually it is ancient Greek philosophy, resurrected in the enlightenment era and applied to religion. The use of logic is not a modern concept. The important thing to remember about logic, especially western logic is that it often DOES require a leap of faith either in terms of the assumptions or in terms of the artificially created situation. We just like to pretend that logic is rock solid when it is often has as little substance as religious faith.
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If I remember correctly, this was not the case. It really was that he wanted european-inspired religions and cultures. At least, if it was only about the names, then I was never told, and that's not really something I was inflexible about.
Hmm. It's also possible that he was more adamant about it at the time...but at this point, SMA in practice is really quite a lot less strict than SMA in theory before and in the early stages of Dwilight was.
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...but at this point, SMA in practice is really quite a lot less strict than SMA in theory before and in the early stages of Dwilight was.
I'd hate to be the one to point this out, but doesn't that sound an awful lot like another island we know? Perhaps it may be time to "step up" on SMA enforcement (namely by clarifying things such as what is and is not acceptable, I believe) before history repeats itself?
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I'd hate to be the one to point this out, but doesn't that sound an awful lot like another island we know? Perhaps it may be time to "step up" on SMA enforcement (namely by clarifying things such as what is and is not acceptable, I believe) before history repeats itself?
Well, then, they should allow us to change some of those horrible, horrible region names.
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Those were kind of determined a long time ago. Besides, there are natives to Dwilight, with varying cultures. Maybe the regions' names were simply borrowed from them, and have nothing to do with the current culture? Take for example the many instances you can see cities named Troy in the United States, that have nothing to do with Homer's epic.
As for the cycle of history, I assume we mean FEI? Well, there are SMA complaint links. Those can be used, you know...
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Well, then, they should allow us to change some of those horrible, horrible region names.
This. If we're going to step up SMA enforcement, then the region names must be changed. Telling people you're going to be strict about only having completely European religions and cultures in Dantooine and Donghaiwei is merely going to piss people off.
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Only thing about that is the Morek variations never had an issue with the Chinese themed naming. They integrated the names well into their cultural structure, taking them as more or less artifacts of native names.
What's wrong about that anyway? Sure, many times the immigrants give their native language's names to the regions. But on a more practical level, what is wrong about the region names indicating native culture? I think it only reinforces the fact that you are not the first one here, that you should not be so arrogant as to try to impose your own names on regions that might very well have been inhabited long before you, with kingdoms that rose and fell far more times than your mere history. RP value. You could theoretically do it with strictly European styled naming, but for some people, some names can be just as exotic, and would still not make much difference than a Chinese-themed name. I mean, try Gaelic names, or Russian names. Maybe we'll add Greek names and make people have a bunch of Spartans running around? Or let's put in Latin because hey, the Vatican actually uses that and as we all know they were pretty heavy hitters in the Middle Ages.
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"The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts."
I'm tired of having this thrown back at me OOC. It is based on Greek ideas, which is about as European as it gets since the Greeks inspired "Western" civilization and basing things on the classics like the Greeks and Romans was pretty common.
It's also a complete fabrication. The logic involved is, at best, psuedo-logic in several cases. It is a piece of propaganda to appeal to the rationalist types.
And for the last blasted time, the religion is new. More stuff gets added as I or others present it. I've had some extensive discussions about what the Manifest Path's position on souls and how they work, and that's going to go through the process to become one of the official writings soon.
Deism, by the way, originated with the ancient Greeks. There was a big revival in the Enlightenment, but it never truly died.
The comparisons with east Asian religions are to counter the argument that it's not a religion at all. I said from the start that my main inspiration for the theology was the Norse religion minus the Aesir being good guys. And again, BM-reality has to trump SMA, and the existence of the Netherworld and the Daimon invasions absolutely has to be taken into account theologically or the religion is flipping insane. It's such an incredibly crucial change to the world that shouting "IT'S NOT BASED ON A EUROPEAN RELIGION!!" is beside the point, because Europe was never invaded by beings that are clearly demons straight out of hell.
Seriously, people. Give a culture some time to develop. See what happens. See whether this is actually going to hurt something.
And yeah, I think a comparison with the other religions on Dwilight works. Especially when Rob's comments about the Bloodstars being actual gods worshiped is flat-out contradicted by quotes from SA's Prophet. I think SA is one of the best things to happen to the game, and did amazing things for getting people on Dwilight to think of religions very seriously, but it sure as hell has no relation to any European religion I've ever heard of. Changing your life to fit the patterns of the eternal stars which influence the movements of your blood has no relation to making sacrifices to and worshiping a god.
To me, the point of SMA is to make people really think like nobles, within a context of the warring states of Middle Ages Europe. Religion should be extremely important, in many cases more important than realm affiliation. Our characters should not be socialists, should not be egalitarian, and should jealously guard their privileges. They should not be tolerant of beliefs that contradict their own, and should push their own faith. And, of course, they should not be buddy-buddy with commoners.
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Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?
Your argument is fallacious and illogical. If Tom accepts a religion with Asian parallels that may or may not exactly fit his idea of SMA, it doesn't necessarily mean he would accept one that obviously does not. One is a moderate position and the other an extreme. Regardless of whether or not the Manifest Path is acceptable to Tom has nothing to do with whether the Blood Cult would be, and you know it.
Furthermore, you just criticized Matt for comparing MP to the other religions on Dwilight, and then you go and compare MP to religions on other islands? That is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
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This. If we're going to step up SMA enforcement, then the region names must be changed. Telling people you're going to be strict about only having completely European religions and cultures in Dantooine and Donghaiwei is merely going to piss people off.
Then perhaps you're looking at the issue wrong. Perhaps this is more an issue, as I said earlier, with defining what is and is not appropriate under SMA. Is it not possible that the current concept of SMA is a flawed one?
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The comparisons with east Asian religions are to counter the argument that it's not a religion at all. I said from the start that my main inspiration for the theology was the Norse religion minus the Aesir being good guys.
Actually I'd say this is the problem with the manifest path. There needs to be some sort of almighty deit(ies)y above humans who can be worshipped.
I think this is crucial to Europe-inspired religion.
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Actually I'd say this is the problem with the manifest path. There needs to be some sort of almighty deit(ies)y above humans who can be worshipped.
I think this is crucial to Europe-inspired religion.
We have them, just not all of us want to worship them, which actually fits many ancient European religions. While all included some form of worship it was never a given that all members of the "faith" actually worshipped the gods, some acknowledged the gods existence and power, but did not perform the rituals of worship.
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We have them, just not all of us want to worship them, which actually fits many ancient European religions. While all included some form of worship it was never a given that all members of the "faith" actually worshipped the gods, some acknowledged the gods existence and power, but did not perform the rituals of worship.
Which 1500s European religion did this? ???
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Which 1500s European religion did this? ???
You mean Christianity, Islam, and Judaism? If we're limiting it to major European religions in the year 1500, then those are your three options.
Or, you can roll it back a bit to the days when Christianity was still duking it out with the various pre-Christian cultures, and the Christianization of Scandinavia didn't finish until well into the middle ages. And the Nordic religion had several deities that the power of was acknowledged and respected but not worshiped by the entire population.
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Then perhaps you're looking at the issue wrong. Perhaps this is more an issue, as I said earlier, with defining what is and is not appropriate under SMA. Is it not possible that the current concept of SMA is a flawed one?
Certainly, the current concept of SMA may well be flawed, and I'm all in favour of making clearer definitions.
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Which 1500s European religion did this? ???
Which 1500's European religion had more then 1 god? Considering that the wiki specifically makes mention of influences such as Greek religion for the SMA, I seriously doubt we are supposed to restrict ourselves to the major religions at the END of the medieval period.
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Especially when Rob's comments about the Bloodstars being actual gods worshiped is flat-out contradicted by quotes from SA's Prophet. I think SA is one of the best things to happen to the game, and did amazing things for getting people on Dwilight to think of religions very seriously, but it sure as hell has no relation to any European religion I've ever heard of. Changing your life to fit the patterns of the eternal stars which influence the movements of your blood has no relation to making sacrifices to and worshiping a god.
I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear to never refer to SA as having "gods". The latest quote I could find my having made was:
"Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods."
I'm fairly certain there are some who worship the Stars as "gods", but that is definitely not the standard church doctrine.
The whole eastern vs western is not what really bothers me about tMP. Unless you try to justify it because "It's an eastern thing", which is an invalid argument since eastern isn't allowed. What bothers me is statements like the one that started this whole thing: "The Manifest Path follows no god or divine power ...". And this: " As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path. It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes."
If you're not following god or a divine power, you're not a religion.
If you're hostile toward the gods you acknowledge, then you're not worshiping them, so you're not a religion.
You have to do more than just handwave a begrudging acceptance of the fact that gods exist and then say "can we get back to the important stuff please?" It's a religion. It should be all about the gods. It should be all about exalting them, spreading their influence, and doing their will. It shouldn't be about teaching everyone that they're dirtbags that should be hated.
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Actually, there is an example of a misotheistic religion in medieval Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars#Theology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Cathars
tl;dr: "The God found in the Old Testament had nothing to do with the God of Love known to Cathars. The Old Testament God had created the world as a prison, and demanded from the "prisoners" fearful obedience and worship. The Cathari claimed that this god was in fact a blind usurper who under the most false pretexts, tormented and murdered those whom he called, all too possessively, "his children". The false god was, by the Cathari, called Rex Mundi, or The King of the World. "
It's different than MP, sure, but religions which recognized gods without worshipping them existed in Europe.
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I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear to never refer to SA as having "gods". The latest quote I could find my having made was:
"Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods."
(...)
You have to do more than just handwave a begrudging acceptance of the fact that gods exist and then say "can we get back to the important stuff please?" It's a religion. It should be all about the gods. It should be all about exalting them, spreading their influence, and doing their will. It shouldn't be about teaching everyone that they're dirtbags that should be hated.
A large part of SA is actually containing and controlling the influence of the Stars, pure exaltation is often frowned upon.
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"The God found in the Old Testament had nothing to do with the God of Love known to Cathars.
The Cathars maybe didn't worship Jahweh, but apparently they did worship this God of Love. So this argument holds little value (judging from just this quote)
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I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear to never refer to SA as having "gods". The latest quote I could find my having made was:
"Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods."
I'm fairly certain there are some who worship the Stars as "gods", but that is definitely not the standard church doctrine.
The whole eastern vs western is not what really bothers me about tMP. Unless you try to justify it because "It's an eastern thing", which is an invalid argument since eastern isn't allowed. What bothers me is statements like the one that started this whole thing: "The Manifest Path follows no god or divine power ...". And this: " As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path. It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes."
If you're not following god or a divine power, you're not a religion.
If you're hostile toward the gods you acknowledge, then you're not worshiping them, so you're not a religion.
You have to do more than just handwave a begrudging acceptance of the fact that gods exist and then say "can we get back to the important stuff please?" It's a religion. It should be all about the gods. It should be all about exalting them, spreading their influence, and doing their will. It shouldn't be about teaching everyone that they're dirtbags that should be hated.
Ancient Greece had Epicureanism which taught that Gods were disinterested in humanity, and its main rituals basically were the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Some branches of the Gnostics held the belief that the creator God was evil and thus by extension all matter was evil. Religion has always been more complex then just a simple worship or servitude to a divine power.
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The Cathars maybe didn't worship Jahweh, but apparently they did worship this God of Love. So this argument holds little value (judging from just this quote)
Indeed the dualistic Cathars worshiped the second of the two gods. Dualistic Catharism was the most prominent, but by no means the only school of though within the movement.
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Ancient Greece had Epicureanism which taught that Gods were disinterested in humanity, and its main rituals basically were the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Some branches of the Gnostics held the belief that the creator God was evil and thus by extension all matter was evil. Religion has always been more complex then just a simple worship or servitude to a divine power.
Epicureanism is generally not considered a religion.
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Religion has always been more complex then just a simple worship or servitude to a divine power.
I think this right here is really the key.
Indirik, you're trying to oversimplify. You're trying to define "religion" as "worship of one or more divine powers," when it's quite plain that that's not the case. It's a nice, easy, simple way to think about it, but in the words of H. L. Mencken, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
I think you've found that answer here.
Religion isn't that simple, however much you might want it to be.
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Epicureanism is generally not considered a religion.
Interesting, my Theology college disagrees, but then I belong to a rather liberal Christan denomination.
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A nice little snippet from Wikipedia that tries to give a definition to the world religion
"Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture."
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A large part of SA is actually containing and controlling the influence of the Stars,
Moderating and balancing their influence on your own person and mind. Not containing and controlling the influence of the Stars on the world. Sanguis Astroism is all about expanding the influence of the Stars on the world in general. We spreads their faith and belief as wide as we can.
pure exaltation is often frowned upon.
This is something that I have never heard of, nor personally seen. Nor can I find any mention of anything similar to this on the wiki.
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Indirik, you're trying to oversimplify. ... Religion isn't that simple, however much you might want it to be.
That's quite possibly true. But we have to start somewhere. The players are supposed to be the guardians of what is and is not acceptable in the game, especially on Dwilight. The players are the only ones able to maintain and police SMA. (And with this debate, we're seeing how completely, and totally, player policing fails in a large-scale environment.) The Titans can't do it, and will not act on anything other than most obvious and blatant cases of SMA abuse. And on many of those, the answer you usually get back is "Handle it IC."
So what the players need to do is somehow define what is and is not acceptable. Which is what we're trying to do here. What is acceptable in a religion? Is it enough to simple say "We believe something, therefore we're an official religion."? Even if the belief is "god suck and you shouldn't worship them"?
This type of thing needs resolved, or Dwilight is at risk of being overtaken by the same type of non-religious-religions that infest many of the other islands.
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That's quite possibly true. But we have to start somewhere. The players are supposed to be the guardians of what is and is not acceptable in the game, especially on Dwilight. The players are the only ones able to maintain and police SMA. (And with this debate, we're seeing how completely, and totally, player policing fails in a large-scale environment.) The Titans can't do it, and will not act on anything other than most obvious and blatant cases of SMA abuse. And on many of those, the answer you usually get back is "Handle it IC."
So what the players need to do is somehow define what is and is not acceptable. Which is what we're trying to do here. What is acceptable in a religion? Is it enough to simple say "We believe something, therefore we're an official religion."? Even if the belief is "god suck and you shouldn't worship them"?
This type of thing needs resolved, or Dwilight is at risk of being overtaken by the same type of non-religious-religions that infest many of the other islands.
If you asked me when Sanguis Astroism started up whether it was SMA compliant, I would have told you, "Hell no." And I would have backed it up with many of the same complaints you have about the MP.
Don't try and tell me you can't see the parallels.
It seems to me that when you boil it down, the important thing is the atmosphere that any given religion helps to foster. I think that the atmosphere the MP will foster will be a good one, very apt for BM, for Dwilight, and, yes, for SMA.
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This is something that I have never heard of, nor personally seen. Nor can I find any mention of anything similar to this on the wiki.
I was thinking of the drill-a-hole-in-your-head incident; maybe it's not extremely relevant to the conversation.
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If you asked me when Sanguis Astroism started up whether it was SMA compliant, I would have told you, "Hell no." And I would have backed it up with many of the same complaints you have about the MP.
There are times when I wasn't all that sure it was, either. Worship of stars? Seems kind of ridiculous, right?
It seems to me that when you boil it down, the important thing is the atmosphere that any given religion helps to foster. I think that the atmosphere the MP will foster will be a good one, very apt for BM, for Dwilight, and, yes, for SMA.
Yes, obviously atmosphere is an important part of it. It is, after all, the "Serious Medieval Atmosphere". But I still think we need some kind of guidelines as to what is and is not appropriate. If it's all a matter of "Wait a year or two and see what happens before you make judgments", then if the judgment comes back "This is really not appropriate", then the judgment will be impossible to enforce.
I don't 100% know that tMP is non-SMA. I have suspicions that it may not be appropriate. And I see a lot of parallels to the bland state religions that you see on other islands. You know, the ones who's sole purpose is to keep other religions out?
Maybe what we need is a new thread to discuss what kind of things are and are not appropriate?
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The Cathars maybe didn't worship Jahweh, but apparently they did worship this God of Love. So this argument holds little value (judging from just this quote)
The point is that the Cathars took existing religions texts, considered these beings as existing, but using their reason concluded that these beings must be in fact evil and were not worthy of worship. They worshipped a "Creator", but believed this creator to be hidden, or at least not present in this world.
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If you asked me when Sanguis Astroism started up whether it was SMA compliant, I would have told you, "Hell no." And I would have backed it up with many of the same complaints you have about the MP.
Don't try and tell me you can't see the parallels.
I see them, but that doesn't mean that MP and SA are equivalent in every way. Personally I agree that whether SA is SMA is questionable, but I have other issues with MP that SA does not suffer from.
It seems to me that when you boil it down, the important thing is the atmosphere that any given religion helps to foster. I think that the atmosphere the MP will foster will be a good one, very apt for BM, for Dwilight, and, yes, for SMA.
And here I have to agree to disagree. For me it breaks the atmosphere. Accepting the worship or existence of other divine entities doesn't replace having one of your own to worship. That in the end is my problem. MP doesn't worship ANYTHING. It's a rational ideology that places the welfare of humanity above the needs of the individual AND the restrictions of the divine. Everything I have read about it springs from that first principle alone - the emphasis on noble rule over commoners, distrust or outright hatred of non-human entities, a system of judgment designed to evaluate actions against the greater good of humanity, even the newly added section on souls emphasizes self-improvement in a very Confucian manner as a means of strengthening the soul as a defense against non-human powers.
If you want to sell MP to me, you have to tell me what it is that MP worships, and 'humanity' is not an acceptable answer here.
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If you want to sell MP to me, you have to tell me what it is that MP worships, and 'humanity' is not an acceptable answer here.
This is the problem. You're demanding that a religion must worship something. I, and many others, disagree that a religion must worship something.
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I don't 100% know that tMP is non-SMA. I have suspicions that it may not be appropriate. And I see a lot of parallels to the bland state religions that you see on other islands. You know, the ones who's sole purpose is to keep other religions out?
If it ends up being one of those, then it will be because Koli is no longer living on Dwilight. Really not seeing the state religion parallel myself. There's a theology, there are both long-term general goals and short-term very specific goals, we're pushing the evangelism hard, I'm aiming to make a theocracy in the medium-term future, and several more in the long-term future (with a fair bit of support behind these ideas), and there's at least one major religious conflict brewing as soon as I find out about this new daimon-worshipy religion IC.
Maybe what we need is a new thread to discuss what kind of things are and are not appropriate?
I'm all in favour of clearer guidelines, and I think this discussion shows that we need them.
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This is the problem. You're demanding that a religion must worship something. I, and many others, disagree that a religion must worship something.
Which is, apparently, where we agree to disagree. However, that is the distilled version of what my problem with it is, and I feel quite strongly about it breaking the atmosphere as a result. Naturally that's only my opinion, not necessarily anyone else's, but it's clear that there's a pretty sharp divide on the issue amongst the readers of this thread at least.
It might be interesting to see a "What is SMA?" thread.
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This is the problem. You're demanding that a religion must worship something. I, and many others, disagree that a religion must worship something.
A problem here is no pre-modern religion exists that did not worship something; even in the East religions had worship. Yes, from a purely ideological perspective, it is perfectly possible to be Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist without worship but in practice this never really happened.
Confucianism was heavily tied up with ancestor worship, veneration of the Emperor as the "son of heaven" not to mention the elevation of Confucius to god-like status.
Taoism had a whole pantheon of deities and indeed still does.
Buddhism greatly venerated the Buddha and many forms, such as that prevalent in Japan, China and Tibet have a whole pantheon of enlightened beings that they venerate, if not outright worship.
Historically speaking the idea of a worship-less religion seems absurd. There is a reason why the Greco-Roman philosophical schools (such as Epicureanism and Stoicism) are classified as philosophies and not religions despite having complex belief systems.
Also there is the issue of game-mechanics, which clearly include priests, temples and shrines and priest abilities such as "praying for signs". It is clearly assumed that religions will worship with divinities and the like.
Of course you could argue that your "priests" are not really priests but are actually scholars/philosophers, that your "temples" are not actually temples but rather academies where members of your order meet for discussion (which of course begs the question as to how the are differant from guidhouses), and that your "prayers for signs" are actually merely conversing amongst the peasants to find out local problems. However IMO the wording of the game-mechanics with regards to religion make a clear statement what kind of religion is aimed for, if not simply the use of "prayer", something impossible without worshipping or at least venerating a divinity of some sort be they deity, natural force or transcended human.
Of course this is just my reasons why I think any worship-less religion such as Manifest Path should not be classified as a religion, and I agree with Geronus that a disscussion of what classifies as SMA would be more effective here.
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Read the Manifest Path's position on souls, and you'll see how it works.
And, again, the Manifest Path recognizes the existence of several supernatural powers. It merely takes the position, based on pretty hard evidence on Beluaterra, that they can be fought effectively if humanity does not sabotage itself. Several religions, including Greco/Roman traditions, had gods that were only propitiated because humanity could not oppose them effectively. Change the laws of the world so that they can be fought and the Romans probably would have.
Please, please, please, please stop telling me what my religion believes. It has gods (and for anyone who thinks the Daimon Lords aren't gods, I defy you to find a deity in the Roman, Greek, or Norse Pantheons with more power).
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Read the Manifest Path's position on souls, and you'll see how it works.
And, again, the Manifest Path recognizes the existence of several supernatural powers. It merely takes the position, based on pretty hard evidence on Beluaterra, that they can be fought effectively if humanity does not sabotage itself. Several religions, including Greco/Roman traditions, had gods that were only propitiated because humanity could not oppose them effectively. Change the laws of the world so that they can be fought and the Romans probably would have.
Please, please, please, please stop telling me what my religion believes. It has gods (and for anyone who thinks the Daimon Lords aren't gods, I defy you to find a deity in the Roman, Greek, or Norse Pantheons with more power).
I was not commenting on gods but rather the worship of them. I have little issue with the idea of human stengthening their souls to combat demons (and yes I know that the Manifest Path has more elaborate beliefs but I'm just using that as an example as you mentioned it) but that is in my opinion an issue for a guild or knightly order; in fact I think such an order that extends its skepticism of the benevolence of the supernatural to gods as well while advancing humanity would be interesting indeed.
What I see as problematic is a "religion" supposedly with temples, priests and prayers that does not have any kind of obligatory worship, when no such precident appears in history and the basic game-mechanics heavily imply worship and prayer as vital components.
Simply look at some of the definitions:
Temple
A building devoted to the worship, or regarded as the dwelling place, of a god or gods or other objects of religious reverence
Priest
A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively.
All of these involve the active worship and/or veneration of a divinity/divinities not merely acknowledging that they exist while then focusing on the more important issue of fighting them.
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Read the Manifest Path's position on souls, and you'll see how it works.
And, again, the Manifest Path recognizes the existence of several supernatural powers. It merely takes the position, based on pretty hard evidence on Beluaterra, that they can be fought effectively if humanity does not sabotage itself. Several religions, including Greco/Roman traditions, had gods that were only propitiated because humanity could not oppose them effectively. Change the laws of the world so that they can be fought and the Romans probably would have.
Please, please, please, please stop telling me what my religion believes. It has gods (and for anyone who thinks the Daimon Lords aren't gods, I defy you to find a deity in the Roman, Greek, or Norse Pantheons with more power).
Those religions also ALL had gods that were revered, prayed to and worshipped, often as patrons and protectors. MP is still missing that piece.
Also, I challenge you to back up your statement that Greco-Roman traditions espouse the idea that the gods had to be worshipped only because humans could not oppose them. I have never heard that interpretation of the ancient Greco-Roman religions, and it implies that the Greeks and Romans saw themselves as slaves to the gods, forced to venerate them in the absence of any way to free themselves. This does not jibe with anything I know about them.
Were those gods capricious and sometimes cruel? Most certainly. That does not mean that they were not genuinely venerated, often as patrons and protectors. The Greeks and Romans did not hate their gods, they simply believed that it was wise to fear their wrath. Moreover, the gods could be a source of prosperity and blessings as well, something that MP specifically denies (I think anyway - correct me if I am wrong).
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One could easily pray to the souls of those in the temples and shrines. And while there are no "worship" services, there are going to be rituals (I love ritual, hehe), and there are certainly sermons.
And again: The realities of the Battlemaster world are different from those of the real world. Doing a direct comparison without taking that into account is insane.
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Simply look at some of the definitions:
Temple
A building devoted to the worship, or regarded as the dwelling place, of a god or gods or other objects of religious reverence
Priest
A priest or priestess is a person having the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively.
All of these involve the active worship and/or veneration of a divinity/divinities not merely acknowledging that they exist while then focusing on the more important issue of fighting them.
Temples are regarded as the dwelling place of objects of religious reference. See the stuff on souls.
Priests of the Manifest Path can administer religious rites. As I said, I love ritual. The fact that the rites focus on opposing the gods rather than appeasing them is a change that works because the Battlemaster world is different from the real world.
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One could easily pray to the souls of those in the temples and shrines. And while there are no "worship" services, there are going to be rituals (I love ritual, hehe), and there are certainly sermons.
And again: The realities of the Battlemaster world are different from those of the real world. Doing a direct comparison without taking that into account is insane.
Interesting, I was not aware that the souls in the MP would be prayed to which certainly makes things seem more religious then simply having humans "going it alone" against the demons.
Although I do think that the wiki-page on souls might need modification clarifying the matter- at the end it concludes that all this soul stuff simply means that the true follower of the path should strengthen his own soul, it mentions nothing of communing with souls or rituals that would be included in such prayer. Considering the fact that one of the main MP policies is a skepticism of the good intentions of any active supernatural powers, the fact that the souls are active and can be communed with should be more clear in order to highlight the fact that they have an important role to play. Otherwise people will simply assume, as I did, that they come under the "non-malevolent but uncaring" category.
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Temples are regarded as the dwelling place of objects of religious reference. See the stuff on souls.
Note that the key word in the definition is "reverence", however as you elaborated in your previous post it seems souls are prayed to which would certainly classify them as such (I'm imagining something along the lines of Christian Saints? As in the souls of the admirable dead used as examples and prayed to for the protection of the temple/shrine? Am I in the right place here or completely off track?).
The wiki did not even mention that they were prayed to or had any religious significance outside of reminding nobles that they should attempt to improve their own souls, so I really do think that needs modifying for better understanding.
Priests of the Manifest Path can administer religious rites. As I said, I love ritual. The fact that the rites focus on opposing the gods rather than appeasing them is a change that works because the Battlemaster world is different from the real world.
So as Geronus stated it seems to come down to how we define SMA, how far a religion should deviate from the template of what we in the RL consider religion and still be SMA (the general template that all/most historical religions comply to rather than actually being based around RL religions, which would include a primary focus of the worship of divinities).
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Also, I challenge you to back up your statement that Greco-Roman traditions espouse the idea that the gods had to be worshipped only because humans could not oppose them. I have never heard that interpretation of the ancient Greco-Roman religions, and it implies that the Greeks and Romans saw themselves as slaves to the gods, forced to venerate them in the absence of any way to free themselves. This does not jibe with anything I know about them.
Look at the myth of Prometheus, and about half of the myths that involve mortals going against the gods (the other half is "perils of hubris" and "violation of sacred law"). The moral of the stories is "the gods were cruel, but opposing them is futile unless you are extremely clever" (Odysseus comes to mind).
The Romans had a very interesting world-view where the natural world was seen as female, and ripe to be conquered and dominated by the male civilization, spearheaded by Rome, of course. The Romans (Cicero comes to mind) had a significant school of thought that religion was merely a method of social order. On at least one occasion, a Roman general saw the result of the augers (which was unfavourable for battle), told the army that the omens were favourable, and after the battle had the auger executed for lying about the omens, and was lauded for this act by several military scholars later. This exemplifies their rather practical approach toward religion, as does the standard siege tactic of offering to essentially buy-out the god protecting the city they were going to sack by promising to build a bigger, better temple in Rome if they won the battle. I think if the Romans thought they could conquer the gods, they would have tried.
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Interesting, I was not aware that the souls in the MP would be prayed to which certainly makes things seem more religious then simply having humans "going it alone" against the demons.
Although I do think that the wiki-page on souls might need modification clarifying the matter- at the end it concludes that all this soul stuff simply means that the true follower of the path should strengthen his own soul, it mentions nothing of communing with souls or rituals that would be included in such prayer. Considering the fact that one of the main MP policies is a skepticism of the good intentions of any active supernatural powers, the fact that the souls are active and can be communed with should be more clear in order to highlight the fact that they have an important role to play. Otherwise people will simply assume, as I did, that they come under the "non-malevolent but uncaring" category.
As I've said countless times: The religion is new and more is being added to it all the time as I and the other members have time and the inspiration to do so. I just figured out some of the wrinkles with the souls a couple of days ago, and I'm trying to involve the rest of the people in the religion so they can help add to it rather than everything being from Koli.
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A problem here is no pre-modern religion exists that did not worship something; even in the East religions had worship. Yes, from a purely ideological perspective, it is perfectly possible to be Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist without worship but in practice this never really happened.
Confucianism was heavily tied up with ancestor worship, veneration of the Emperor as the "son of heaven" not to mention the elevation of Confucius to god-like status.
Taoism had a whole pantheon of deities and indeed still does.
Buddhism greatly venerated the Buddha and many forms, such as that prevalent in Japan, China and Tibet have a whole pantheon of enlightened beings that they venerate, if not outright worship.
Historically speaking the idea of a worship-less religion seems absurd. There is a reason why the Greco-Roman philosophical schools (such as Epicureanism and Stoicism) are classified as philosophies and not religions despite having complex belief systems.
Also there is the issue of game-mechanics, which clearly include priests, temples and shrines and priest abilities such as "praying for signs". It is clearly assumed that religions will worship with divinities and the like.
Of course you could argue that your "priests" are not really priests but are actually scholars/philosophers, that your "temples" are not actually temples but rather academies where members of your order meet for discussion (which of course begs the question as to how the are differant from guidhouses), and that your "prayers for signs" are actually merely conversing amongst the peasants to find out local problems. However IMO the wording of the game-mechanics with regards to religion make a clear statement what kind of religion is aimed for, if not simply the use of "prayer", something impossible without worshipping or at least venerating a divinity of some sort be they deity, natural force or transcended human.
Of course this is just my reasons why I think any worship-less religion such as Manifest Path should not be classified as a religion, and I agree with Geronus that a disscussion of what classifies as SMA would be more effective here.
I would be interested in seeing what references you have that definitively prove groups such as the Epicureans, the various Mystic groups, and the many ancestor religions were not in fact religions. While I'm more then aware that its not universally accepted that they are, I'm also of the understanding that it is not universally accepted that they aren't.
There is a big difference between the worship of a deity or spirit, and the reverence towards a more powerful figure or the act of appealing to the ancestors or a spirit for aid in the physical world. While most religions have indeed had a deity they truly worshipped, there have been those that respected and appealed to the deities, but stopped short of worship. I've always seen it as something similar to having reverence for a King, whom you can appeal to for aid.
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I would be interested in seeing what references you have that definitively prove groups such as the Epicureans, the various Mystic groups, and the many ancestor religions were not in fact religions. While I'm more then aware that its not universally accepted that they are, I'm also of the understanding that it is not universally accepted that they aren't.
There is a big difference between the worship of a deity or spirit, and the reverence towards a more powerful figure or the act of appealing to the ancestors or a spirit for aid in the physical world. While most religions have indeed had a deity they truly worshipped, there have been those that respected and appealed to the deities, but stopped short of worship. I've always seen it as something similar to having reverence for a King, whom you can appeal to for aid.
I would think that groups such as ancestor religions and various forms of shamanism would certainly be classified as religions, due to the reverence placed upon the spirits and ancestors which I would view as similar enough to worship. Most of these early religions did include various offering and prayers to such entities which I think would constitute worship.
To use a more modern example look at the Christian veneration of Saints- yes it is not the same type of worship that is offered to God but I would still think it is a form of worship all the same. I would imagine that if God were taken out of the equation the veneration of saints would still be enough on its own to be classified as a worshipping religion. However I am not a theologian so I can hardly speak authoritatively on the matter of veneration vs. worship.
With regards to Epicureanism I have honestly never heard of it being referred to anything other than a philosophical school before this thread. If we are to classify it as a religion simply because it offers a specific way of life and belief system then surely we should include all the ancient Greek philosophical schools, such as the Stoics and the Skeptics, as they to offer a specific way of life and belief system. Indeed with this definition its questionable exactly how much of moral philosophy is not in fact various different religions, since the very purpose of that aspect of philosophy is to offer a specific way of life and belief system.
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re·li·gion
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
As you can see from that definition worship of a figure is not entirely necessary. The fact that it is almost universal speaks more about our own needs as humans when it comes to placing our faith in a spiritual belief system. Manifest Path would to my mind qualify against definition 3 and 4. Of course this is the "modern" definition of religion.
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re·li·gion
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
As you can see from that definition worship of a figure is not entirely necessary. The fact that it is almost universal speaks more about our own needs as humans when it comes to placing our faith in a spiritual belief system. Manifest Path would to my mind qualify against definition 3 and 4. Of course this is the "modern" definition of religion.
Indeed, it was the fact that this is a more "modern" definition that I was trying to express. The fact that in the past worship has been a nigh universal indicator of a religion does, in my opinion, make the more modern view expressed by some, that it simply requires a belief system and a cause, less valid as a factor when discussing SMA as it is clearly not medieval.
However again it all comes down to how far the historical features of religions should impact what an SMA religion should look like.
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The fact that the rites focus on opposing the gods rather than appeasing them is a change that works because the Battlemaster world is different from the real world.
This statement could be used as carte blanche to completely blow up SMA; you can use it to justify almost anything you want. Inherently, the concept of SMA means the Battlemaster world is based on the real world. I understand that on BT you have invaders, but BT isn't SMA.
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This statement could be used as carte blanche to completely blow up SMA; you can use it to justify almost anything you want. Inherently, the concept of SMA means the Battlemaster world is based on the real world. I understand that on BT you have invaders, but BT isn't SMA.
But it is still PART of the BM world, where our Dwilight characters can emigrate from. I can understand that SMA would prevent some of the sillier player created content coming to Dwilight, but unless Dwilight becomes a completely separate game world, then official content to my mind is completely relevant.
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This statement could be used as carte blanche to completely blow up SMA; you can use it to justify almost anything you want. Inherently, the concept of SMA means the Battlemaster world is based on the real world. I understand that on BT you have invaders, but BT isn't SMA.
No, it can't be used to blow up SMA. It can be used to show that our characters have functioning brain stems. The fact of the BT Invasions is a fact. Whether they happen on the SMA island or not is immaterial, as the Battlemaster world clearly has regular communication between the islands.
Based on and inspired by are not the same things as simulation and reenactment. There are any number of things that we ignore the real world on because it would be insane to do otherwise. No one on Dwilight has their messengers take realistic speeds. Sexism is not the cultural norm it was in the real world, which correspondingly changes cultures in all sorts of ways. We don't have diseases like the plague, which unimaginably changes cultures. And we have literal demons from hell invading the world, and they just crippled the continent that historically has been where all previous incursions stopped cold. Ignoring that fact because it didn't happen on Dwilight is like ignoring the various invasions by Germany in the build-up to WWII. Sure, you can do it, and lots of people did. Doesn't make it any less stupid.
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This statement could be used as carte blanche to completely blow up SMA; you can use it to justify almost anything you want. Inherently, the concept of SMA means the Battlemaster world is based on the real world. I understand that on BT you have invaders, but BT isn't SMA.
I don't get this view of SMA. The wiki seems pretty clear
"This is our term for roleplaying the game as it is meant to be. That does not mean pages upon pages of text, but rather playing your character as if he were a real human being in a real world. You can be as short or elaborate as you want to in doing that, but try to be realistic.
Here are a few short guidelines, and further down you will find some points in more detail. Remember that all these are guidelines. Every now and then, there is a good reason to ignore one or two of them."
To me this spells out that SMA is all about our characters and how they act. Its about RP. Its not intrinsically about the physical world or the setting, but how our characters react to each other and the underlying principles that we as players base their actions on.
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To me this spells out that SMA is all about our characters and how they act. Its about RP. Its not intrinsically about the physical world or the setting, but how our characters react to each other and the underlying principles that we as players base their actions on.
The "underlying principles"on which these actions are based include several guidelines on time period and locale. BattleMaster is inherently based on the real world in which we live. A specific time period in history, and a specific location on the earth. That is the framework in which we play.
Tom once stated something on the order of: "If you roleplay your character within these guidelines, then the SMA automatically comes as part of it." No, that's not an exact quote, but it's similar. I ran across it today while looking for some other things.
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The "underlying principles"on which these actions are based include several guidelines on time period and locale. BattleMaster is inherently based on the real world in which we live. A specific time period in history, and a specific location on the earth. That is the framework in which we play.
But it does not in any way state that our characters are in that time and place on Earth, nor that they ever were there or have any way of referencing it.
The milieu is simply supposed to have the same atmosphere.
If our characters experience a BT invasion, then by the principles of SMA, our characters should be expected to react to the events of that invasion, and remember them, and think about them later—not simply forget the invasion happened because it wasn't the kind of thing that would happen in medieval Europe.
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But it does not in any way state that our characters are in that time and place on Earth, nor that they ever were there or have any way of referencing it.
The milieu is simply supposed to have the same atmosphere.
If our characters experience a BT invasion, then by the principles of SMA, our characters should be expected to react to the events of that invasion, and remember them, and think about them later—not simply forget the invasion happened because it wasn't the kind of thing that would happen in medieval Europe.
I completely agree. Our characters should react to what they see and experience, as if they were medieval nobles. But the medieval european atmosphere is not just a jumping-off point, after which anything goes. We are supposed to maintain that atmosphere. If we don't do that, then SMA is worthless. We might as well just rename it Serious Noble Atmosphere, and be done with it.
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I completely agree. Our characters should react to what they see and experience, as if they were medieval nobles. But the medieval european atmosphere is not just a jumping-off point, after which anything goes. We are supposed to maintain that atmosphere. If we don't do that, then SMA is worthless. We might as well just rename it Serious Noble Atmosphere, and be done with it.
I guess it just sounds to me like you're almost saying "our characters should retcon the world around them to be more like Medieval Europe."
If something influences our characters strongly that isn't something that could happen in Medieval Europe, that will produce results that cannot have analogues in Medieval Europe. There's no getting around that.
If you want a continent that's totally free of those influences, then it has to be a continent with no monsters and undead, and no contact with continents that do.
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Maybe this discussion could find it's won thread? I'm interested in Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news, not 10 pages of comments on MP, SMA and whatever...
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I believe some are looking at things from the wrong perspective. A few examples:
We have them, just not all of us want to worship them, which actually fits many ancient European religions. While all included some form of worship it was never a given that all members of the "faith" actually worshipped the gods, some acknowledged the gods existence and power, but did not perform the rituals of worship.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are being mentioned as examples. But look at this from perspective of the Church's doctrines, the holy books and religious texts. You are taught to worship God, not only to acknowledge him. As follower, you have the choice not to worship God. However, that is not the Church's problem, but that of you. As you shall stand condemn before God.
Actually, there is an example of a misotheistic religion in medieval Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars#Theology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Cathars
It's different than MP, sure, but religions which recognized gods without worshipping them existed in Europe.
Misotheism itself is no foundation for a religion. From the wiki (first link), the first sentence: "Catharism was a name given to a Christian religious sect with dualistic and gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc region of France and other parts of Europe in the 11th century and flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries." It implies that misotheism translated in BM is a guild with their own philosophy based on a religion, with nobles who follow that religion. Again, it is no church doctrine.
The Romans (Cicero comes to mind) had a significant school of thought that religion was merely a method of social order. On at least one occasion, a Roman general saw the result of the augers (which was unfavourable for battle), told the army that the omens were favourable, and after the battle had the auger executed for lying about the omens, and was lauded for this act by several military scholars later.
The Church Doctrine does not teach you to kill an auger when he predicts bad omens. Their approach to religion is an individual choice, no divine mandate.
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Misotheism itself is no foundation for a religion. From the wiki (first link), the first sentence: "Catharism was a name given to a Christian religious sect with dualistic and gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc region of France and other parts of Europe in the 11th century and flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries." It implies that misotheism translated in BM is a guild with their own philosophy based on a religion, with nobles who follow that religion. Again, it is no church doctrine.
I really have to disagree here. If we had Cathoilicism and Protestantism on Dwilight, they would be different religions. Catharism as a guild within Catholicism is as far from SMA as you can possibly get.
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I guess it just sounds to me like you're almost saying "our characters should retcon the world around them to be more like Medieval Europe."
That would be completely silly.
If something influences our characters strongly that isn't something that could happen in Medieval Europe, that will produce results that cannot have analogues in Medieval Europe. There's no getting around that.
Yes, you are correct. I specifically stated in the other thread that there is no need to have direct RL analogues for things that you do in-game.
Yet the players must still intentionally limit their characters' actions and attitudes to try and maintain that environment. (The following are just examples off the top of my head, and not meant to point accusations at anyone or anything...)
For example:
- When your character prays to their gods for aid in battle against the godless foreign invaders, and he loses the battle anyway, for the 27th time in a row, he shouldn't turn atheist and deny that gods exist. Even though maybe that would fall within his RP'd personality type.
- If your character notices how placing bounties on monsters and undead attracts those ever-so-useful adventurers who are so friendly and helpful and keep the infestations down, he still should not propose to give rights to commoners, or seek to declare that they are equal to nobles, because, hey, we're all just human beings, right?
I'm sure there are more scenarios that could be found, but these are the ones I thought of off-hand.
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SA has you seeking to control the influence of the stars (to succumb to their influence renders you mad, sinful)
Either you have seriously misunderstood the message of SA or, more likely, I've seriously failed to express it!
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SA is all about using babies blood to add zest to the Blood Lord's meals, and they secretly serve an undead monster who has three heads.
Everyone knows there are no such things as "stars" those are gods in the sky looking down on us.
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- If your character notices how placing bounties on monsters and undead attracts those ever-so-useful adventurers who are so friendly and helpful and keep the infestations down, he still should not propose to give rights to commoners, or seek to declare that they are equal to nobles, because, hey, we're all just human beings, right?
Haha, who would ever do that? ::)
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that? ::)
*wink* *wink* ::)[/list]
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Either you have seriously misunderstood the message of SA or, more likely, I've seriously failed to express it!
It's more of a willing misunderstanding. My character looked at it and kinda convulted it to fit into his previously very devout worship of tor... don't feel bad!
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Ah, Everguard artifacts!
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It's more of a willing misunderstanding. My character looked at it and kinda convulted it to fit into his previously very devout worship of tor... don't feel bad!
Oh, that's fine then - wilful misconceptions are perfectly acceptable!
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When your character prays to their gods for aid in battle against the godless foreign invaders, and he loses the battle anyway, for the 27th time in a row, he shouldn't turn atheist and deny that gods exist. Even though maybe that would fall within his RP'd personality type.
Why, precisely? I am trying to understand the hair-splitting that's going on, and I can't do it without being intellectually dishonest with myself and others. The place and period-specific interpretation of SMA is being used as a lens to view religion through, and it can't be done.
You cannot discuss the history, culture, and institutions of the period without running into the Church. This is because the Church became the vehicle for preserving authority and tradition after the collapse of the State. The Church became the State, and continued to dominate all the domains that would normally have been occupied by a political order for centuries. There aren't good parallels for this in the rest of the world because the conditions were somewhat unique. The special role of the Church in the formation of Europe as we know it has nothing to do with some imagined pan-European uniformity of thought and belief. This is especially frustrating for those of us that don't agree with this interpretation but do know our history, because the people arguing the opposite point are using "history" as the cornerstone of their position.
So what, then, is the complaint? Is it that tMP doesn't acknowledge the outsized role of a particular institution (the Catholic Church) that we are explicitly prohibited from citing? Is the complaint that tMP doesn't substitute some other omnipotent institution in its place? Because we have done that. I would appreciate it if the people pushing this particularly detailed interpretation of SMA would refine their point, because it's starting to look more like an attempt to police thought and less like a serious concern about improving the quality of play for all.
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Why, precisely? I am trying to understand the hair-splitting that's going on, and I can't do it without being intellectually dishonest with myself and others. The place and period-specific interpretation of SMA is being used as a lens to view religion through, and it can't be done.
Because that's not how religious people think.
Let us take the example of 27 successive defeats despite fervent prayer. The following are a few possible explanations:
1. My god does not exist (atheism)
2. My god hates me because it is hateful (evil deity argument)
3. My god hates me because I am sinful (divine retribution)
4. My god does not care about me because I am insufficiently devout (tough love)
5. My god does not care about me because I am insufficiently important (limited divine attention span)
6. My god has preordained a future which includes my defeat (deterministic arbitrary god)
7. My enemy's god is stronger than my god (theomachy)
8. My god has decided to hand me over to another god as part of on obscure divine drama (Book of Job)
9. My god has a larger messianic plan that requires my temporary defeat (divine historical imperative)
10. My god desires for me to have a crisis of faith (character building)
11. I have misunderstood the nature of my god's character (incorrect worship)
For a medieval, option #1 is the most difficult option because god is a basically believed idea. God's existence was a point of only very limited disputation. There are numerous available RP responses, of which many are acceptable for SMA, allowing myriad opportunities for different types of characters. Why must we always go to option #1?
If the occasional very exceptional character chose #1, that'd be one thing. But making it normal is something else.
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Because that's not how religious people think.
Let us take the example of 27 successive defeats despite fervent prayer. The following are a few possible explanations:
2. My god hates me because it is hateful (evil deity argument)
For a medieval, option #1 is the most difficult option because god is a basically believed idea. God's existence was a point of only very limited disputation. There are numerous available RP responses, of which many are acceptable for SMA, allowing myriad opportunities for different types of characters. Why must we always go to option #1?
No one's suggesting #1. We are suggesting #2.
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From what I've read, you're suggesting:
"What god you worship doesn't matter."
If your contention is: "There is a god/gods, it/they have certain characteristics x, y, and z, it/they work in the world through these certain means, and, broadly speaking, this god dislikes us, and our survival is preserved by means a, b, and c that forestalls god's wrath" then, more power to you. That's a neat religion.
So I would ask, for tMP:
1. What is god's name, or the names of the gods?
2. What deities worshipped by other faiths, in fact, do not exist? Which ones do exist?
3. If other deities besides the deity of tMP exists, what relation do they have to tMP's deity?
4. How is it that god can be fought by man with any degree of success?
5. Why has god created (assuming god did create, you could have a different cosmology) a world that it desires to hurt?
6. What has caused god to be evil?
If you can answer those questions, you've got a real theology going. You'll have a deity, you'll have a clear "out group," you'll have a description of metaphysics, you'll have a description of humanity's metaphysical position, you'll have answers to many traditionally religious questions, you'll have a theodicy of sorts.
Other good questions to answer via religion:
1. Why does lightning strike where it does?
2. Why do good and bad harvests come when they do?
3. Why do other realms exist?
4. Why do only heroes die?
5. Why does sex create babies?
6. Why do we have to eat food to stay alive?
7. Why does everyone need water?
8. Why do animals exist?
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5. Why does sex create babies?
:-[
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it does? don't you know babies come from rocks? (something like a rock explodes and out plops a baby.. sort of like the "monkey")
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it does? don't you know babies come from rocks? (something like a rock explodes and out plops a baby.. sort of like the "monkey")
Or for anyone that has read Joe Abercrombie's Kingslayer Chronicles, the term "man-mothers."
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:-[
In some cultures, it didn't. They started having sex so young, that they just didn't associate the result with the act. In one culture, at least. I don't quite remember the specifics, one of my anthropology manuals mentioned it at some point though a few years back.
Not SMA at all, though.
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:-[
Heh.
I don't mean "DOES sex create babies?" But "WHY does sex create babies?"
Why is the pain of childbirth connected to the ecstasy of intercourse? Why does life begin the way it does? Why is carnality necessary to continue humanity? And so on and so forth. You can take in many different directions.
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Now would be a good time to drop the whole religion topic, and move back to matters at hand?
So...
Anything new on Dwi? :)
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SA is finally going on the offensive against Caerwyn. Otherwise, pretty quiet.
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SA is finally going on the offensive against Caerwyn. Otherwise, pretty quiet.
How is Asylon reacting to that? :)
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How is Asylon reacting to that? :)
Asylon will attack from the south with our massive armies of rabid Astroist hordes... 8) 5th column baby...
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Dwilight is straight boring.
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Dwilight is straight boring.
Huh? I'm on BT and Dwi, and I enjoy the latter the most :) granted, I'm in Thalmarkin ;)
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Dwilight is straight boring.
I was joking about the 5th column DH, Asylon can barely field its own army never mind a grand invasion force. Caerwyn made a mistake by isolating Asylon. We follow our king,not purely our faiths, an Asylonian is first an Asylonian and second whatever they believe. Proven by the fact we 3 religions under on flag.
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Dwilight is still fairly interesting. And this is coming from a guy whose character only sends messages, travels, does diplomatic actions like treaty maintenance, and courtier work, and occasional trades.
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I'm having a blast in Terran at present; but that's been true now for several years.
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me? i'm going to make it more boring.. did a pretty good job last time around.. XD
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Boring? Dwilight? I think not...Shake it up a bit. I'll help out.
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Dwilight is straight boring.
You are a government member of Caerwyn, fighting a war against SA. How can things be boring for you?
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It is boring to him because he is losing! :)
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Losing can be more exciting than winning, actually--losers have to rebuild regions, redeploy militia, field treasury requests, route food away from looting and towards starving regions, etc.
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Switch sides then?
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Losing can be more exciting than winning, actually--losers have to rebuild regions, redeploy militia, field treasury requests, route food away from looting and towards starving regions, etc.
I dunno, looting our enemies to hell was pretty damn fun, when I was general of Enweil.
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It depends on how competitive one is. Some people really don't like losing, no matter at what stage. Some of the banter thrown around during Fontan's twilight indicate some frustration. Enweil and Hetland during 4th Inv as well, and Enweil actually survived.
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It depends on how competitive one is. Some people really don't like losing, no matter at what stage. Some of the banter thrown around during Fontan's twilight indicate some frustration. Enweil and Hetland during 4th Inv as well, and Enweil actually survived.
I'd say it wasn't quite the same kind of frustration Enweil and Hetland had.
The way the different factions work in combat made in sort that Enweil basically lost more nobles during the mortality period than every other realm combined. The GM, until called out on, also exploited special GM options in ways he was not supposed to. Scrolls from the Dream against monsters were the only ones not to actually kill troops, but rather only lowered morale (which could be regained by simply leaving and avoiding battle with that unit, and which had no impact if the troops were doing a TO or looting). There were a few other things like that which made it feel like Enweil was given, at parts intentionally, a nastier foe than others were. Sure, you could argue we survived where others didn't, but that'd be neglecting the considerable aid we got from the daimons, we'd totally be dead if it weren't for that.
Hetland, on the other hand, were more like "Omg, why are the daimons attacking us, we only spit in their faces like a million times!?" and "Cheaters, the Blood Cult has been given some secret powers by the GMs and it's unfair!" (note: the Cult did not receive anything at all, the allegation was rather stupid).
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Well, despite all that, Enweil did in fact survive, and still has the potential to be of considerable size and strength. The same cannot be said of Avalon (dead), Bara'Khur (Dude, they really still have Dyomoque. What's up with that?), Thalmarkin (Northern area completely gone, wedged between OG and Melhed, though at least they did survive...maybe. Unless the Undead GM's "master amazing Xanatos casino plan" did some other bad stuff to Thalmarkin)
Oh yeah, Hetland's dead too, and they even had a Light temple. Come to think of it, they're the only one of the three Light realms that died.
Still, I'm pretty sure if you guys were winning fairly easily you wouldn't have complained as much about the mortality or the invaders. It's a common thing that winning makes everything feel better.
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Well, despite all that, Enweil did in fact survive, and still has the potential to be of considerable size and strength. The same cannot be said of Avalon (dead), Bara'Khur (Dude, they really still have Dyomoque. What's up with that?), Thalmarkin (Northern area completely gone, wedged between OG and Melhed, though at least they did survive...maybe. Unless the Undead GM's "master amazing Xanatos casino plan" did some other bad stuff to Thalmarkin)
Oh yeah, Hetland's dead too, and they even had a Light temple. Come to think of it, they're the only one of the three Light realms that died.
Still, I'm pretty sure if you guys were winning fairly easily you wouldn't have complained as much about the mortality or the invaders. It's a common thing that winning makes everything feel better.
You know what, I actually wrote a lengthy reply to this. But just erased it. I said my arguments already, and don't care to repeat myself any more. Winning does feel better, but that's not what Enweil's critics were about. And some northerners did complain as well, and at least some of these complaints were quite valid to me, the undead also had some nasty things that were quite cheap.
Would have complained less? No !@#$, Einstein. I !@#$ing hate mortality. When I lost a hero character to it, I swore to myself never to make a !@#$ing hero again. And then it was forced upon us. "Stop playing the character you love or I'll might make you stop" was basically the message given by mortality, because emigrating had basically the same impacts as death but with 100% certainty, while you could hope to be lucky and avoid mortality by staying. The realm feels like a hollow shell since then. The damage can't be undone. Just another example of how trying to force an atmosphere totally ruined the gaming experience for a bunch. At least if it was Enweil dying, and not its nobles, we could all stick together to an allied realm and plan our resurrection together. Instead, we play the walking dead.
Other realms lost a few nobles, but nowhere as much as Enweil. The effect of character deaths on realm morale (see: player morale, and not character morale), politics, and activity is exponential. I campaigned heavily against mortality once Nicolas died, because all the time I used to play him was now free. I didn't do so to protect my other character, he was a priest and so risked it very little (I stopped preaching). I did it so other realms didn't have to suffer from it.
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Please get back on topic and talk about Dwilight. If you want to talk about Enweil and Beluaterra in general, take it to that board please.
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Hey guys, you know how Avalon got destroyed by monsters? Well if those monsters went up against the Dwilight monsters, who would win? It's a Deadliest Warrior scenario!
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Dwilight Monsters hands down.
Unless they are fighting some archer units. Then they are done for.
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Beluaterra monsters eat people to grow in strength, and would eventually die out in the wilds of Dwilight.
Dwilight monsters are birthed out of undiluted evil, their life sustained exclusively by malice.
Dwilight monsters would eventually win that battle of attrition.
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Now here's a thought: Apparently Epic's posse wasn't from BT originally. How do we know they didn't come from Dwilight, or somewhere even worse? Hm hm hm?
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Now here's a thought: Apparently Epic's posse wasn't from BT originally. How do we know they didn't come from Dwilight, or somewhere even worse? Hm hm hm?
I actually asked Sword that very question. Never got a real response though. The impression I got was they were from a land we have not ventured onto, though someone else in DOA did suggest that they were some horrible mutation from the sunken war islands, Human nobles cursed into their current form.
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I actually asked Sword that very question. Never got a real response though. The impression I got was they were from a land we have not ventured onto, though someone else in DOA did suggest that they were some horrible mutation from the sunken war islands, Human nobles cursed into their current form.
lol, if that's so, that's yet another piece of cultist lore later discovered in BM mythology.
I mean really, didn't you all know by now that monsters were mutated humans? I thought it was obvious. ;)
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Well, not all of them, unless in BM, "Monster" is used in a Nietzscean sense more aligned with twisted morals rather than a physical transformation. Or perhaps it's a Kafka deal where the change is both physical and more.
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lol, if that's so, that's yet another piece of cultist lore later discovered in BM mythology.
I mean really, didn't you all know by now that monsters were mutated humans? I thought it was obvious. ;)
It was often implied that the NPC monster characters were MUCH different from the monster troops they commanded. Exactly what the link between the characters and the monsters where was never clear, but I believe that like the humans that joined the monster realm, they required a seal of power to control their armies.
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When I first read about it I likened it to the Command Seals in Fate/Stay Night. Further lols came when you realize that Gilgamesh is one of the major antagonists in all routes and is the final boss in the UBW route. Then recall that the monsters were all "treasures" of Gilgamesh.
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When I first read about it I likened it to the Command Seals in Fate/Stay Night. Further lols came when you realize that Gilgamesh is one of the major antagonists in all routes and is the final boss in the UBW route. Then recall that the monsters were all "treasures" of Gilgamesh.
Yes I also made that link.
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It was often implied that the NPC monster characters were MUCH different from the monster troops they commanded. Exactly what the link between the characters and the monsters where was never clear, but I believe that like the humans that joined the monster realm, they required a seal of power to control their armies.
Mutations need not be the same for all.
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Could also be scale of classification. We call humans, dogs, rats, coral, and sponges, all animals. In that case we group them according to kingdom. Maybe monster is a blanket term for a bunch of things, possibly higher order than kingdom, though most likely lower than domain, thus making it BM's fictional second highest order of classification.
I say that it must be lower than domain because I am pretty sure humans couldn't tell the difference between bacteria and archaea at this time. I say that it is most likely higher than kingdom because I believe that in talking about "monsters", there are not only animal monsters like those humanoid mammalians on BT, but also plant monsters like those fantasy carnivorous plants. And if not yet, then there should be. That would explain a lot of things that happen in the forests of midsouthwest Dwilight.
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There could also be a lotr style Orc vs Uruk- hai type deal going on
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I think there was like a Dwilight Monster Compendium project going on at some point. I think it's still laying around on the Wiki somewhere.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Poryatown_Press/Monster_Compendium
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Poryatown_Press/Monster_Compendium
Nice.
Pretty cool idea. Would be neat to see the Dwilight University take this project up in some shape or form maybe.
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Lolz, I even worked in that years ago! 8)
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Are other realms on Dwilight having trouble with monsters? It seems to me as though we have 20-30 monsters appearing every three days.
Edit: Also, aren't you supposed to receive automatic reports when monsters show up in your realm or region?
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You are not... You get a report when a horde spawns in your location or an adjacent one, but not when they move in from somewhere else. You'll only get battle reports if there is one, and reports of them rampaging the region after they've arrived.
It's a common problem for realms with a wide border on the rogue lands. Luria Nova currently has 9,000 CS of monsters in two regions... good times.
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Are other realms on Dwilight having trouble with monsters? It seems to me as though we have 20-30 monsters appearing every three days.
Edit: Also, aren't you supposed to receive automatic reports when monsters show up in your realm or region?
also, winter is coming, a jolly season full of endless, massive rogue invasions under the worse weather conditions and living on the food supplies of a hopefully fertile autum.
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also, winter is coming, a jolly season full of endless, massive rogue invasions under the worse weather conditions and living on the food supplies of a hopefully fertile autum.
Amen.
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Terran has seen no unusual uptick in monster/undead threats recently.
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Terran has seen no unusual uptick in monster/undead threats recently.
We just got a big wave of them in Fissoa :(
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Increasingly, I am realizing that Terran has a remarkably advantageous position for monsters. The Zuma clear out the great bulk of them, and, in a pinch, we can retreat to make our whole borders consist of Mistight and Odona, with good rurals and cities behind them.
It's a good life in the Root River Delta.
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Indeed it is, living near the Zuma has great advantages, as long as they don't come after you.
When (and if) Shinnen is colonized, Fissoa and LN should expect less friendly monster visits, or at least will have a new target to divert them.
It must suck for Morek Empire and Pian en Luries, as they border the probably biggest spawn-nest of all Dwilight...
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Indeed it is, living near the Zuma has great advantages, as long as they don't come after you.
When (and if) Shinnen is colonized, Fissoa and LN should expect less friendly monster visits, or at least will have a new target to divert them.
It must suck for Morek Empire and Pian en Luries, as they border the probably biggest spawn-nest of all Dwilight...
That is why Pian en Luries has such well trained units, constant monster fights are great ways to get 100% cohesion and 100% training :)
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TBH I'll be a little sad when the monster threat to LN and Fissoa subsides. They've been a great source of action, they keep us busy, and I cannot help but smile every time I hear reports of massive horde invasions pummeling my arch-rivals in Fissoa ;D
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Indeed it is, living near the Zuma has great advantages, as long as they don't come after you.
When (and if) Shinnen is colonized, Fissoa and LN should expect less friendly monster visits, or at least will have a new target to divert them.
It must suck for Morek Empire and Pian en Luries, as they border the probably biggest spawn-nest of all Dwilight...
In Morek we actually enjoy those invasions, they're a good training ground and break boredom. On the other hand it'd be great to free Unterstrom from rogues but with the actual Noble base it's an impossible task
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In Morek we actually enjoy those invasions, they're a good training ground and break boredom. On the other hand it'd be great to free Unterstrom from rogues but with the actual Noble base it's an impossible task
PeL doesnt mind it either.... so long as the Dukes continue to open their goldbags on demand ;)
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Been kind of quiet the last couple days. Winter hits on Dwilight and it seems like the whole continent grinds to a halt. Thank god for the tourney in Paisly. From Eidulb it is a 5 day trip though...
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Indeed. This forum was humming, now it seems... empty...
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Port Raviel would be *the* most central location.
But I'm not duke of Port Raviel, and Port Raviel hasn't yet fully recovered as Paisly has. So meh.
I'm starting to realize, though, that while D'Hara is geographically the most central, the population hubs are quite a distance from it.
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Dwilight is HUGE
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It is indeed big and what makes it feel bigger? the travel time between regions. It is still longer than other continents.
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Dead? Asylon is still humming along, we are quite busy with some huge monster invasions. Our army has never been larger and organized.
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It is indeed big and what makes it feel bigger? the travel time between regions. It is still longer than other continents.
I dunno, I found the travel times on the Colonies to be rather dreadful.
Mind you, when it first started, the distance between Sprindale and its doughnut was pretty bad.
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I dunno, I found the travel times on the Colonies to be rather dreadful.
Mind you, when it first started, the distance between Sprindale and its doughnut was pretty bad.
Travel times in the Colonies are "normal" for a 2 turn island. the problem, of course, is that this means that what would normally be a 4 day trip, takes 8 days. I would love to see travel times cut in half, or by at least 20%.
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Travel times in the Colonies are "normal" for a 2 turn island. the problem, of course, is that this means that what would normally be a 4 day trip, takes 8 days. I would love to see travel times cut in half, or by at least 20%.
I'm not convinced. The regions there are mostly rather freakin' huge. I recall travel times being horrible, *on top* of only having one turn and 8 hours a day.
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Foreign Leave (6 hours ago)
Flame has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).
Foreign Leave (6 hours ago)
Screamer has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).
Foreign Leave (6 hours ago)
Oskaa has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).
Interesting...
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Foreign Leave (6 hours ago)
Flame has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).
Foreign Leave (6 hours ago)
Screamer has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).
Foreign Leave (6 hours ago)
Oskaa has abdicated (automatically, due to inactivity).
Interesting...
GM for Zuma perhaps?
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Words cannot express how angry I am about the blatant multi-accounting occurring right now on Dwilight. No, I don't have any proof, but it's damn suspicious.
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Words cannot express how angry I am about the blatant multi-accounting occurring right now on Dwilight. No, I don't have any proof, but it's damn suspicious.
Please report any suspected multis to the Titans. Even if you have no proof, they have the tools to investigate.
Public accusations really serve no purpose. 99% of the people you're talking to can't do anything at all about it. And several of those who can do something about it, don't read these forums. (But they do read Titans reports.)
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GM for Zuma perhaps?
Definitely. I wonder what would happen to the Zuma if the GM auto-paused...
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You'll probably get nothing further about the Zuma if that happened and it would all seem like a bunch of fairy tales to scare people.
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One can only hope...
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It doesn't even affect you all the way in the East anyway.
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Words cannot express how angry I am about the blatant multi-accounting occurring right now on Dwilight. No, I don't have any proof, but it's damn suspicious.
As Rob said, the Titans have pretty sophisticated tools to investigate this stuff once they have a list of accounts to start looking at, but if they don't get any tips on where to look, it's not easy to figure out where to start.
You're not going to get penalized if the Titans decide they aren't multis, either. People who are working to try and make the game better are appreciated, even more so if they go through the proper channels :)
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As Rob said, the Titans have pretty sophisticated tools to investigate this stuff once they have a list of accounts to start looking at, but if they don't get any tips on where to look, it's not easy to figure out where to start.
You're not going to get penalized if the Titans decide they aren't multis, either. People who are working to try and make the game better are appreciated, even more so if they go through the proper channels :)
Have the titans gotten less lazy? Last time I pointed them to very fishy people, they just shrugged and basically said "Meh, you didn't provide conclusive evidence" and closed the issue.
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Have the titans gotten less lazy? Last time I pointed them to very fishy people, they just shrugged and basically said "Meh, you didn't provide conclusive evidence" and closed the issue.
And when was that?
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And when was that?
A few weeks before DoA declared war on Enweil, if I remember correctly.
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A few weeks before DoA declared war on Enweil, if I remember correctly.
So, "years ago."
Things change. Or had you never noticed that?
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Have the titans gotten less lazy? Last time I pointed them to very fishy people, they just shrugged and basically said "Meh, you didn't provide conclusive evidence" and closed the issue.
I've reported things to the Titans several times, and they have almost always pursued it within a few days, and generally have ended up locking (at least some of the) accounts I've reported. I generally present a several-thousand-word case outlining all available evidence with the report, though. Limit the amount of research they have to do, links to family accounts, important dates, etc.
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You'll probably get nothing further about the Zuma if that happened and it would all seem like a bunch of fairy tales to scare people.
Which would be kinda cool.... except it would make Terran's situation much harder...
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You'll get to make up stories or something. On the other hand, there could be a completely different outcome, but yeah, no...Not up to me to talk about it. ^_^
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The two last Titan reports I filed not too long ago were reported as accepted within a day or so after reporting it... but after that, the only thing I heard was crickets...
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So, "years ago."
Things change. Or had you never noticed that?
Years? Not that much, now. DoA declared war on Enweil not that long before the invasion started. And I seem to recall this invasion not lasting as long as the previous one. 14 months or so ago, I'd say.
I haven't reported any fishy behavior since, so I didn't have any opportunities to notice any change. I don't expect much turnover within the titan ranks, though.
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Which would be kinda cool.... except it would make Terran's situation much harder...
Without that daimon-powered-monster-grinder you'd see the insane monster levels Astrum and PeL (and LN to a lesser extent) get.
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I reported a possible SMA violation on DWI and received a response in less than 24 hours-that was this week.
Titan activity may vary per continent.
(edit: there is now a single pool of titans game-wide, per another post today)
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Same. I reported an SMA violation and received acknowledgement and resolution within a couple of days.
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Itau secedes to form a new realm.. Interesting move, I'll be curious to know what the relations between the Caerwyn and Itau will be like.
I know very little about how that wars going? Has Caerwyn been able to turn it around at all or are the SA armies continuing to make headway? And what effect has winter had on everything?
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Itau secedes to form a new realm.. Interesting move, I'll be curious to know what the relations between the Caerwyn and Itau will be like.
Unfortunately, there appear to be some serious bugs affecting the secession. I'm not sure Itauland will survive long enough to actually have any kind of a relationship with anyone.
I know very little about how that wars going? Has Caerwyn been able to turn it around at all or are the SA armies continuing to make headway? And what effect has winter had on everything?
No, they have not. But they still have a chance to get it together. There's still some time left in winter, and then time for armies to march.
As for the effects of winter, it slows everything down. No one really marches to attack in winter. Also, Golden Farrow is apparently starving. Pop keeps dropping.
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No, they have not. But they still have a chance to get it together. There's still some time left in winter, and then time for armies to march.
As for the effects of winter, it slows everything down. No one really marches to attack in winter. Also, Golden Farrow is apparently starving. Pop keeps dropping.
We've been focusing on getting some of our regions back and retrenching a bit. When travel opens up, we'll no doubt be back in the saddle.
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Secession to avoid starvation? That has to be the worst argument or cover I've ever heard.
If anything, it'll hurt production in Cearwyn and will therefore reduce the regional food supply. Truly shooting themselves in the foot...
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Doomed to fail, really. No attempt to get recognition from other Realms beforehand at all. I wouldn't bet money on it surviving.
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But fun to watch!
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Doomed to fail, really. No attempt to get recognition from other Realms beforehand at all. I wouldn't bet money on it surviving.
I guess Caerwyn will at least get that much less to feed now. ;)
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But fun to watch!
My thoughts exactly.
A secession in the dead of winter in the middle of a war, while the realm starves. I thought the war would end with a cowed Caerwyn reduced to Itau/Via, maybe allowing SA, and an SA realm in Golden Farrow. Now I wonder if Caerwyn will vanish completely.
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I can't decide if I'm hoping that the new ruler of Caerwyn asks for peace, or if I hope they don't. Decisions, decisions...
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Well if we stop the war, Allison will go crazy lol. She wants Golden Ferrow so we have to ask Caerwyn for their capital for peace. Doubt they will say yes to that.
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If Astrum made peace with Caerwyn and they got to keep Golden Farrow that would just be bad. Caerwyn would eventually retake Itau. I and my nobles would leave Astrum. They would be down to 40 nobles or less. Then one day Astrum and Caerwyn will be at war again. It is inevitable. Caerwyn will be much stronger than it was this time since they have 3 cities now and not 2. I doubt Libero Empire or Summerdale will help in that next war and Astrum would have an annoyed Allison pulling strings in the background.
So they could do it and suffer little to no consequences in the short term, but in the end I think that would be a big mistake for Astrum to make peace and let Caerwyn keep Golden Farrow.
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Heretics killing Heathens? Always fun to watch when not busy fighting off abominations! ;D
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I can't decide if I'm hoping that the new ruler of Caerwyn asks for peace, or if I hope they don't. Decisions, decisions...
Why would we make peace with them now, eh? Isn't this the perfect time to press our advantage?
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So Via just joined Asylon if anyone is interested.
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Caerwyn has been a very active place.
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Caerwyn has no cities left. Damn...
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So Via just joined Asylon if anyone is interested.
I wonder... did that *just* happen? I thought the last duchy of realm could not switch sides.
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Apparently as ruler of Caerwyn, Graviel could make the change. It wasn't preferable though because the rest of the regions separated from the Duchy.
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I wonder... did that *just* happen? I thought the last duchy of realm could not switch sides.
It happened shortly before GF revolted, I believe.
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Nah, GF already revolted the day before.
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What an interesting and odd situation when a realm has 8 regions left (which is a lot) but no cities. They have a townsland. If Tom manually sets that as their capitol, they could continue a little while longer :p
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If the Nobles of Caerwyn wouldn't be already planning at least to go South :)
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If Tom manually sets that as their capitol, they could continue a little while longer :p
He only did that for Outer Tilog and it's probably the only time he ever will. He (like many others) has a fondness for OT so it was probably just a "I don't want to lose you" favour.
The Caerwynians have given up anyway, they're all making their way over to Madina to help us win the war. Their reward will be the Candiels duchy :P
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Euh, I really don't think Tom favours any Realm. Shouldn't be spreading that kind of stuff.
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What an interesting and odd situation when a realm has 8 regions left (which is a lot) but no cities. They have a townsland. If Tom manually sets that as their capitol, they could continue a little while longer :p
Via was a much better bet - far away from the proposed new realm and Astrum!
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I am still surprised that Caerwyn refused peace. We had already destroyed their capitol. They have given up and said we could have whatever we can take. They have no army left and no capitol. We offered to help them rebuild their realm which would have 2 cities, 3 townslands and several rural regions. They refuse and instead take nothing and just give up. Did they resort to cannibalism and go crazy?
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I am still surprised that Caerwyn refused peace. We had already destroyed their capitol. They have given up and said we could have whatever we can take. They have no army left and no capitol. We offered to help them rebuild their realm which would have 2 cities, 3 townslands and several rural regions. They refuse and instead take nothing and just give up. Did they resort to cannibalism and go crazy?
Well, when Caerwyn started going on killing sprees in Astrum, my character started making plans to leave. After that (and many other things), nothing that Caerwyn could do would surprise him.
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Euh, I really don't think Tom favours any Realm. Shouldn't be spreading that kind of stuff.
False, what he said was true. There was an announcement on the news ticker for it too, I believe. He made a townsland OT's capital when they lose their last city, stating that the realm had kept him motivated in continuing BM when he had otherwise lost all interest.
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Here's the interesting thing regarding capitals...If you lose yours, then you have to build a new one before you get a capital. So, Golden Farrow revolts, Caerwyn has no capital. Via, while being the last city, was not the capital.
Or it's a bug :D
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Yah it was weird.
As mentioned before Caerwynians preferred to leave then surrender. Most of us are going south to Madina.
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Yah it was weird.
As mentioned before Caerwynians preferred to leave then surrender. Most of us are going south to Madina.
I hope you save it from itself.
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I hope you save it from itself.
time will tell
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time will tell
I get to join 'em even though someone them dislike me for leaving so earl on in the war. Psh, I'll put them in line 8)
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I hope you save it from itself.
Pft, we're awesome. We'd be even better without all that northern interference :P
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Trying to organize a dying realm was a lot of work for the record. Trying to get roughly over 30 characters to agree on anything was like pulling teeth, predictably we've spilt into three groups, those staying with to fight Itaulond with Asylon, those travelling to Madina and the Saxons who appear to disagree with everything but remain entirely insular and unreadable.
Kids these days
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Trying to organize a dying realm was a lot of work for the record. Trying to get roughly over 30 characters to agree on anything was like pulling teeth, predictably we've spilt into three groups, those staying with to fight Itaulond with Asylon, those travelling to Madina and the Saxons who appear to disagree with everything but remain entirely insular and unreadable.
Kids these days
The Saxons are probably just trying to work out which realm they can try and takeover next.
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I think they've picked Barca
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I think they've picked Barca
Lucky Barca
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Let that be a warning to Barca.
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I thought the last duchy of realm could not switch sides.
It's a bug. The last city/stronghold of a realm should not be able to switch allegiance or be given away.
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Let that be a warning to Barca.
And so IC and OOC becomes inextricably intertwined... ???
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It's a bug. The last city/stronghold of a realm should not be able to switch allegiance or be given away.
Bugs that kills ;)
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And so IC and OOC becomes inextricably intertwined... ???
Indeed, a dangerous thing. I'd take it more of a "take a peek at their family history" and then decide for yourself after watching them a little, as you would do with any new character (or is that just me who thinks everyone is out to get me?).
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I was just trying to be funny. It was a bad joke...
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Indeed, a dangerous thing. I'd take it more of a "take a peek at their family history" and then decide for yourself after watching them a little, as you would do with any new character (or is that just me who thinks everyone is out to get me?).
They are watching you right now...
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The Saxons are probably just trying to work out which realm they can try and takeover next.
Well, I think they've more or less run out of realms that could actually hurt SA. My guess is they continue their counter clockwise rotation around the continent until they end up some day in Pian en Luries, after which point they will have gotten themselves banned from pretty much everywhere on the entire island.
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Well, I think they've more or less run out of realms that could actually hurt SA. My guess is they continue their counter clockwise rotation around the continent until they end up some day in Pian en Luries, after which point they will have gotten themselves banned from pretty much everywhere on the entire island.
They should skip ahead and go straight to Pian en Luries. It's perfect for their rebellious minds.
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They should skip ahead and go straight to Pian en Luries. It's perfect for their rebellious minds.
We'd kill them. No offence but it they go clockwise then we will ban them for their names :D
If they come straight to us, they have to earn the right to start a rebellion!
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They should be going to Aurvendil, they have lots of buddies there.
Even with the same saxon names and everything.
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They wanted the Caerwynians to join Aurvandiel in the great migration debate of 2011, didn't work out for them though, I think IC they would have a hard time justifying attacking their former allies in Madina.
Here's what I predict, using my powers of perception and a magic crystal ball.
Most of the Saxons from Caerwyn join Barca or Terran, if Aurvandiel loses they push for allowing Aurvandiel nobles into Barca. Get into Barca, take over!
Ta da!
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They wanted the Caerwynians to join Aurvandiel in the great migration debate of 2011, didn't work out for them though, I think IC they would have a hard time justifying attacking their former allies in Madina.
Here's what I predict, using my powers of perception and a magic crystal ball.
Most of the Saxons from Caerwyn join Barca or Terran, if Aurvandiel loses they push for allowing Aurvandiel nobles into Barca. Get into Barca, take over!
Ta da!
Moar food?
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They wanted the Caerwynians to join Aurvandiel in the great migration debate of 2011, didn't work out for them though, I think IC they would have a hard time justifying attacking their former allies in Madina.
Here's what I predict, using my powers of perception and a magic crystal ball.
Most of the Saxons from Caerwyn join Barca or Terran, if Aurvandiel loses they push for allowing Aurvandiel nobles into Barca. Get into Barca, take over!
Ta da!
mhhh, sure your not guilty your self? ???
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Guilty?
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Oh that's right the whole federated with Astrum thing.
;D
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Sorry, who are the Saxons exactly?
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They should skip ahead and go straight to Pian en Luries. It's perfect for their rebellious minds.
I've always tried to work with marginalized groups. For some reason, it always goes sour after it becomes obvious that it's not a sense of belonging or teamwork that they want—just your realm.
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Sorry, who are the Saxons exactly?
I don't exactly know when they started, but the first time I encountered those 'saxons', they were in Thulsoma. They used weird titles for their government jobs and exploited a bug which enable them to use as much of their family gold as possible. Though they were annoying they did provide SA realms with something to do.
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exploited a bug which enable them to use as much of their family gold as possible.
To clarify, they found a situation that essentially allowed them to create and access gold with no penalties. The loophole has been closed.
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To clarify, they found a situation that essentially allowed them to create and access gold with no penalties. The loophole has been closed.
There goes my plan for world domination... :(
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Sorry, who are the Saxons exactly?
Essentially an OOC clan that took over Thulsoma at one point and role-played themselves as Saxons. They were pretty serious about the Saxon thing, to the point of writing their signpost and various other things entirely in Old English. However, they were also power gamers (see the discussion about the afore-mentioned loophole) and generally bad-spirited. Their characters tended to be xenophobic, insular and arrogant.
Short story, Thulsoma was destroyed, so they moved to Averoth. Averoth was destroyed, so they moved on to Caerwyn. Now Caerwyn is going down, so they're moving on once again. They're not welcome anywhere in the north thanks to the Thulsoma affair. Hence the whole counter clockwise rotation thing, until they've basically gotten themselves banned from everywhere.
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Essentially an OOC clan that took over Thulsoma at one point and role-played themselves as Saxons. They were pretty serious about the Saxon thing, to the point of writing their signpost and various other things entirely in Old English. However, they were also power gamers (see the discussion about the afore-mentioned loophole) and generally bad-spirited. Their characters tended to be xenophobic, insular and arrogant.
Short story, Thulsoma was destroyed, so they moved to Averoth. Averoth was destroyed, so they moved on to Caerwyn. Now Caerwyn is going down, so they're moving on once again. They're not welcome anywhere in the north thanks to the Thulsoma affair. Hence the whole counter clockwise rotation thing, until they've basically gotten themselves banned from everywhere.
I'm surprised they've got such a poor track record.
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Short story, Thulsoma was destroyed, so they moved to Averoth. Averoth was destroyed, so they moved on to Caerwyn. Now Caerwyn is going down, so they're moving on once again. They're not welcome anywhere in the north thanks to the Thulsoma affair. Hence the whole counter clockwise rotation thing, until they've basically gotten themselves banned from everywhere.
You missed out Madina :P Or are the ones that came to Madina a different clan?
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I'm surprised they've got such a poor track record.
In general they chose poor realms, kept themselves apart, acted extremely arrogant in all their dealings with other realms, and then proceeded to viciously antagonize and insult their neighbors. The results were ridiculously predictable.
To be fair, they didn't really "take over" Thulsoma in the sense of moving in and kicking out the prior occupants. Thulsoma had been abandoned due to overwhelming monster attacks, and was on the verge of disappearing completely. I'm not sure there was anyone left in Thulsoma at all when Haruka showed up. The realm was in Anarchy and she was auto-selected as the new ruler. (Or however that anarchy thing works. I've never been in a realm in anarchy before.) That's when the Saxons showed up. They rescued the nearly dead realm and brought it back to flourishing. It wasn't until much later that anyone suspected how the family gold loophole was being exploited. Without it, there would have been no chance at all for the realm to come back.
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You missed out Madina :P Or are the ones that came to Madina a different clan?
You mean the people that went on to found Aurvandil? They are not, to my knowledge, actual Saxons. They did not ever participate in Thulsoma, nor do they IC claim to be of the Saxon race (again, to my knowledge). They attempted a failed rebellion in the Libero Empire and left there and went straight to Madina as far as I know, except the ringleader who was deported and then resurfaced in Caerwyn.
In an OOC sense there may be a connection there, but I have no evidence of that on Dwilight. It could just be two different groups that happen to be sympathetic to each other. I know that Hroskell, the leader of the failed rebellion, was sympathetic to the Saxons going back to when he was a priest of SA, and later joined Caerwyn with what I imagine was the express purpose of getting revenge on SA. However, there are IC reasons for everything he did.