BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: BarticaBoat on August 08, 2020, 08:40:14 AM
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I'd like to open a discussion about the effect of discord on the BM community - gaming events that occur because of discord actions, the role of hyperactive players in pressuring development of the game, and the alienation of those who do not wish to participate in the very heavy activity that discord demands.
I have spent a month on the discord to see for myself what occurs. It seems to be the same group of self-congratulatory players who creat an echo chamber of opinions which alienate those who do not play the same way. I rarely could voice an opinion without being diminished, dismissed, or mocked. I'm not a delicate guy but it is frustrating to see these players not consider that if anyone is feeling the way I am means others can feel that way and that they need to consider why these environments occur.
Discord is not mandatory to play BM. We can form friendships with BM as the medium and too often it feels like those of us with less activity are discarded as playing wrong.
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Hear, hear. I have had a similar experience on BM's Discord channel. I was contradicted or actively dismissed by cliques of players, nearly every time I dared to express an opinion. Some folks just straight up shouted social-contract-breaking things at me, and had to be muted by the admins. It's like people think BM's rules didn't apply because they're on Discord. I was told that I would have to report any rules-breaking messages directed at me, because there were so many messages that the admins could not audit everything.
I didn't want to cause any more incidents like that, so I stopped visiting.
The most frequent word I've seen players use when describing that environment is "toxic".
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I'd like to open a discussion about the effect of discord on the BM community - gaming events that occur because of discord actions, the role of hyperactive players in pressuring development of the game, and the alienation of those who do not wish to participate in the very heavy activity that discord demands.
It seems like this phenomenon has increased since I got back to BM, although I must say it also seemed to be there in the IRC days. The more things change...
On a couple of occasions, I’ve seen directly this cry-bully behavior, with players coming onto discord to complain about their “fun†being curtailed when their character’s IC actions/scheming was caught out and they started facing IC consequences. In this particular instance, what made the matter worse in my eyes was certain good-hearted players OOC went out of their way to cater to the player’s wants after this complaining, thinking they could contribute to build a better game atmosphere, only to see their characters get almost immediately backstabbed for it. Those particular players ended up leaving/pausing out of the game, and I don’t doubt these sorts of OOC interactions soured the BM experience for them.
As someone who has been playing off and on since ‘07, there was a time when realms born and died easily- secessions were common, betrayals and region flip flops happened all the time, and this kept the game from being static. One of my favorite experiences in BM was the war between Arcachon and Arcaea/Ohnar West, where Arcachon, my one duchy realm was trying to fend off two realms with 9 cities. Sure it was tough, and we lost eventually (thanks to a spy embedded in our realm for IRL years). But no one complained, loss is just part of a board game. Nowadays, anytime a realm is destroyed, or a city taken, actions which bring dynamism and change to the game, I see a growing tendency to take to discord to badmouth the realm concerned and exact an OOC toll. When Perleone pulled out of the North-South war to take on MN and Alara in ‘18, on discord it was “Perl clanâ€. Now with the war with Caligus, it’s the “Perl dogpileâ€, despite Perleone beginning the diplomatic negotiations with SD to convince them to get that war started. Is it any wonder that the game is stagnating, when any actions that bring creative destruction to the game get continually panned on discord for upsetting the status quo?
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I have heard the same complaints about every single out-of-game communication method since I joined the game in January 2004.
"The discussion list is ruining the game!"
"IRC is ruining the game!"
"The forum is ruining the game!"
I have always, categorically, disagreed, and frankly, never moreso than now.
More than any of the other out-of-game channels, Discord provides a way to create a genuine community around BattleMaster like never before. The people who come on there regularly are vastly more likely to stay engaged with the game and their fellow players, because they become much more real to them.
If you have had bad experiences on Discord, then I am truly sorry. I, personally, didn't notice you come on, or didn't know it because you used different names there than here. But I assure you, the rules of the Social Contract apply just as strongly on Discord as they do within the game, and when we see toxic interactions happening, we do our best to step in and stop them—as you yourself noted, the people who were insulting you were muted.
I also absolutely agree that Discord is not, should never be, and will never be, a requirement for playing the game, any more than IRC, the discussion list, or the forum were. It is a way to participate in the BattleMaster community and get to know your fellow players better as players. It is, frankly, something that I would recommend to any player with the available time to poke at it, and an open enough mind to come to it without expecting it to be a hive of scum and villainy—but I promise you, I will fight for every player's right to play the game purely by playing the game, if that is their preferred style.
Now, as I said, I have heard the cries of "Discord is ruining the game" for some time, but very rarely in reference to specific instances (and on the occasions when it was in reference to specific instances, they have almost invariably been provably false). Could you articulate for me some specific incidents that you believe were caused or exacerbated by Discord, and why?
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Now, as I said, I have heard the cries of "Discord is ruining the game" for some time, but very rarely in reference to specific instances (and on the occasions when it was in reference to specific instances, they have almost invariably been provably false). Could you articulate for me some specific incidents that you believe were caused or exacerbated by Discord, and why?
All too often it does become a requirement to play on the "highly-active" tier.
Current vitriol against the player of the Ketchum family is absurd and if he is truly game-breaking like they say, should be reported to the titans. Instead Nivemus is blacklisted and at least a dozen characters suddenly believe their life goal is to depose Brock - hence the founding of a colony in Nivemus lands. So many ways to go about it such as "these people are suffering and neglected" etc, but they go with the the meta-game "you are not dense enough give me your lands" because that is a discord opinion.
The flip of bruck was by a player/character who was bored, which is fine, but growing discontent was never known outside of discord. The player actively asked for someone to give their character IC motivation so they could flip a region. That level of planning occuring outside of BM, if I recall, was always forbidden or at least highly discouraged but occurs.
The entire Alexandria colony attempt has been planned OOC on discord to fit meta-game concepts, that Nivemus isn't dense enough so we should put a colony there and enliven it. This is also an example of the close-minded echo bubble I encountered. I asked why did they demand two cities from a realm when they could have subverted Nivemus, they could found their realm and actually fight for their lands, so many options but I was decried as "the problem" and "protecting bad players".
Those are three, specific, current examples. There are less tenuous ones and older ones - ooc spreading of IC information being used IC, highly active players have always had the ears of admins etc when Indirik no less asked for West dwilight rogue spawn to be dialled down after astrum moved into the north west coast. I won't go down a rabbit hole of what has always been apparent, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but you can put a survey link or more obvious contact options on our account pages.
As I said in discord, if somebody presents as "bitter" or as concerned as I am from outside the bubble of discord, how many other players feel as embattled? What context and environment has led to this? Is this ever an acceptable outcome?
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The flip of bruck was by a player/character who was bored, which is fine, but growing discontent was never known outside of discord. The player actively asked for someone to give their character IC motivation so they could flip a region. That level of planning occuring outside of BM, if I recall, was always forbidden or at least highly discouraged but occurs.
If the player had already decided "this is what I am going to do, I just need a motivation", then they were going to find the motivation whether someone else deliberately gave it to them or not.
I have also heard from other players in Eponllyn that the player in question had been telling them—in-character, in-game—long before Bruck was handed to Eponllyn that they were unhappy with the direction Eponllyn was taking.
The entire Alexandria colony attempt has been planned OOC on discord to fit meta-game concepts, that Nivemus isn't dense enough so we should put a colony there and enliven it. This is also an example of the close-minded echo bubble I encountered. I asked why did they demand two cities from a realm when they could have subverted Nivemus, they could found their realm and actually fight for their lands, so many options but I was decried as "the problem" and "protecting bad players".
Well, first of all, the idea that Nivemus is spread too thin is hardly something you have to be on Discord to see. The fact that many people on Discord talk about this is not evidence of some Discord conspiracy against Nivemus: It is because it is true, and it does create problems.
Second of all, and following closely on that, the idea that the colony was decided upon in order to reduce Nivemus is silly; Perdan is bursting at the seams with young, ambitious nobles, and they have no easy means of expansion. A colony is an obvious solution to that, and the realm that's practically more regions than nobles is the obvious choice for a location.
And as for Ketchum, I'm sorry, but as Ruler, he is the one to be held responsible for the situation Nivemus is in. I don't know the full story—not the way I know about the situation that unfolded in Wetham—but as nobles fled Nivemus, and those few who remained just sat there collecting gold, he enabled that behaviour, which is a cancer on the game and always has been.
Those are three, specific, current examples. There are less tenuous ones and older ones - ooc spreading of IC information being used IC, highly active players have always had the ears of admins etc when Indirik no less asked for West dwilight rogue spawn to be dialled down after astrum moved into the north west coast. I won't go down a rabbit hole of what has always been apparent, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but you can put a survey link or more obvious contact options on our account pages.
I'm afraid I don't recall the specifics of the end of the Dwilight monster rampage, but I'm deeply skeptical of your claim that we deliberately did so to enable Astrum to expand into the coastal areas there—simply because that doesn't sound like something either Vita or I would do. It doesn't fit our goals or our principles, and frankly, I'm pretty sick of being told that my actions are somehow caused by "squeaky wheels" influencing me all the time, rather than thinking for myself, analyzing the situation, and making my own damn decisions.
And ultimately, that's what this comes down to: If you don't like something I do, take it up with me, because I'm the one who made that decision. Don't blame it on "Discord", don't blame it on "OOC play". Talk to me and tell me, to my face, what you don't like and why, and do it with the respect you'd expect if you were in my position, and I'll treat you the same.
Accuse me of being either cozy with a small group of players and out to benefit them at everyone else's expense, or easily manipulated and used by said players, and I'll tell you to shove it, because that's really insulting, and I'm not going to put up with it anymore.
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Got to agree with Anaris here.
Even if you get rid of Discord, people will still form something to talk to each other. IRC, Forum and Discord... all of them were criticized at one point. You can't just get rid of them. There will always be a replacement somewhere. At least with Discord, Anaris and Vita + moderators can control things a bit so it doesn't get out of control.
As for this `highly active tier` argument, many of us were at that tier at some point. Old timers are not as active as they once were. It is good that these newer players bring their passion and energy. What are we going to do with just a game full of `low active tier` players? The game will just turn into a graveyard. Let the active people have fun. They are driving the game and revitalizing it. It is not like they are forming a clan and pushing people away. That would be a problem. But they seem to let anyone interested join. So I don't see any serious issues.
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As a player who was very active on discord and has recently taken a step back from it, I can confirm that you do not need discord or any other ooc channels to enjoy the game.
If discord frustartes you, you can safely ignore it.
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While I agree with what has been said here that players can enjoy the game just fine without being part of the Discord community, there is one point in the original post that I would like to talk about. In fact, I think it was the crux of his post, and that we have meandered slightly off point.
I rarely could voice an opinion without being diminished, dismissed, or mocked.
I have been on a personal mission to alter this, because it is a very real problem on Discord that I have witnessed and have had to deal with.
I have even been pinged as a Moderator or PM'd directly and told that a player is causing trouble on a channel just to find that "problem player" repeatedly trying to voice their opinion (non-aggressively, without swearing) and being met with a constant wall of "No" or "You are wrong". No discussion. No trying to see something from their side. Just blatant dismissal and rejection.
Quite honestly, it is often the players who deem themselves the "good" players, and it makes my blood boil. Anyone reading, if you have ever been that stone wall mentioned above because you don't like a player, I sincerely hope you feel ashamed.
This is a game. Discord is for discussing that game.
Every time I have encountered this, after the situation was diffused, I have messaged the player privately to discuss whatever concern they were trying to bring up. I let them talk. I ask questions. And literally, literally, every time they have said "Thank you, it was nice to just have someone listen". That seriously bothers me.
I have never fixed BM in those discussions. Heck, I don't think I usually fix the player's specific problem. But jeez, it isn't hard to sit there and actually listen to someone, let them voice their opinion, and then discuss it.
If you can't manage to have at least that much decency, then just avoid the topic and talk to other people.
Sorry for the rant. Gildre out.
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User has been warned for this post.
The entire Alexandria colony attempt has been planned OOC on discord to fit meta-game concepts, that Nivemus isn't dense enough so we should put a colony there and enliven it. This is also an example of the close-minded echo bubble I encountered. I asked why did they demand two cities from a realm when they could have subverted Nivemus, they could found their realm and actually fight for their lands, so many options but I was decried as "the problem" and "protecting bad players".
As the player who has been developing the Alexandria colony for 3 months now, you have no idea how Alexandria came to be. The entire idea was born IN CHARACTER after my character (Daizen Tideweaver) decided to start seeking greener pastures than Perleone. A massive two part roleplay was sent to the guild Imperial Embassy and Perleone before Daizen left to Perdan to pursue a colony effort through the ROGUE islands. Then the conclusion that a colony would only be successful if it had mainland access was a natural conclusion that was drawn. And that is how the city of Kazakh was targeted. Not Nivemus. Nivemus just happened to be the realm that held the city, and managed it poorly.
So perhaps don't act like you have information that you do NOT have. You spout the birth of the idea of the colony like you knew how it happened. Your statement is entirely false.
Here is a copy of my initial roleplays from MONTHS ago while my character was still in PERLEONE:
Roleplay from Daizen Tideweaver
Message sent to everyone in Imperial Embassy (64 recipients) - 9 days, 35 minutes ago
Lords and Ladies of the Embassy,
I am Sir Daizen Tideweaver, Vice-Marshal of the Blazing Swords in Perleone. Now that our conflict with Yssgard is coming to a close I seek one that can assist me in interpreting a reoccurring dream. Whether it be a sage, a known prophet wise beyond their years, or simply an elder who has seen far more of life than I. While I know this embassy is meant to facility diplomacy between the many realms of the south, this is the largest forum of which I can appeal for answers. This dream, it drives me. It causes me to long for something but I do not know what that something is. It feels like a call to adventure yet I am unsure of anything. Where, who, what, or why. If this was just a passing dream I would dismiss it, but it has been invading my much needed rest for some time now. Allow me to share the dream as I vividly relive it while penning it on this parchment. Its damn near poetic.
I dream of a city so small and dark,
dead trees creaking and shedding bark,
the scent of salt wafts through the air,
When suddenly horses everywhere.
A rider emerges,
with purpose and poise,
a battle rages,
with much blood and noise.
The rider's sword clashes,
his enemy is found,
shedding years of apathy
that kept this land bound.
With much measure and mettle,
The rider strikes down his foe,
the pointy eared devil,
suffers the fateful blow,
A golden city with chapels,
at the rider's hands has been bested,
for from his nemesis the golden apple,
had been properly wrested.
Again, I do apologize if this is not the proper forum, but I seek answers and guidance. There are many influential and wise nobility and I would seek to draw upon its collective wisdom. What is ones interpretation of this?Are there any others who have experienced this dream or something similar? It fills me with equal parts exhilaration and dread. Fellows of the embassy, thank you for reading this missive. I do not blame a single soul for binning this parchment as it comes across your desks, but I welcome all inputs on a matter that has been costing me much of my precious sleep and filling me with a feeling of incompleteness.
Many thanks.
May the Tides flow ever in your favor,
Sir Daizen Tideweaver, Knight of Ibladesh, Vice-Marshal of the Blazing Swords
Roleplay from Daizen Tideweaver
Message sent to everyone in Imperial Embassy (64 recipients) - 6 days, 22 hours, 47 minutes ago
Embassy,
Many thanks for the feedback on my reoccurring dream. I have been able to gain some enlightenment from many different perspectives.
Between my travels I was able to study a map and some basic histories. Surprisingly, I am in agreement with Octavian of Yssgard which I was something I never thought I'd pen to paper. Based on what I've been able to glean from my meager studies on the road, the city from my dream is Kazakh. At least it matches what I see in my dream on paper. I do not know much about the realms of Nivemus or Sirion, but history states the realms have been stagnant for some time and Sirion once had ancestors with ears that were considered pointed. I do not know much about Sirion city though the Golden Apple seems to be an appropriate metaphor in this case.
Imperatrix Kingsley, I was wholly unfamiliar with the Nivemus banner or Eponllyn culture until your missive. This leads me to believe Earl McArbin's interpretation of literal horses, massive hordes of cavalry cutting down the armies of formless shadowy figures. The only figure to truly come into focus was the "pointy-eared devil" who was humanoid in shape rather than daimonic (to answer your question Earl McArbin). I do whole heartily agree with your Imperatrix, the slaying seems to be a dark omen to me as well. But I cant shake the feeling that the stagnation of these lands is connected to the "pointy-eared devil" and to slay him would bring life to the stagnation.
Lastly, Knight Rogos pointed out some very interesting symmetry between some ancient histories of those lands and my dream. Connections I would have never thought to have made that just leads me to believe that Kazakh is the city of the omen. I am also facinated by what you shared with me privately, and shall make for the Perdan Mines when my duties allow.
As I dwell more and more on the dream, and its meanings and interpretations. The dream now grows and evolves. Allow me to share:
For humble knights of three and five,
Awaken a land that yearns to thrive,
Small city of dark in need of a riot,
shall be the key to fell the goliath,
The roaring of mighty lions off in the distance,
Are needed to fully pierce the mighty resistance,
Many pointy-eared devils hide in the woods,
From the rider and knights they ensure they're obscured,
But no amount of dark from their trees,
Will keep the rider from finding thee.
Again Lords and Ladies of the Embassy, thank you for your time.
May the tides flow forever in your favor,
Sir Daizen Tideweaver, Knight of Ibladesh, Vice-Marshal of the Blazing Swords
-Robert Wilson (Tideweaver Family)
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The colony effort is not new. It was started IC months ago, my advie heard about it through the grapevine from other advies, joined the colony effort guild, and eventually even actively spied on and reported details of the gradually-evolving colonial discussion to Blood King Carstein of Eponllyn, weeks ago. Sigrid was also involved in an advisory role to the Blood King and has discussed the colony. Here was her overall assessment:
Report from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in Player experience level: mentor Player play preference: rp
(Personal message to Gray Von Carstein) - just in
If I understand the stakes correctly...
They claim to want Kalmar, Kazan, and Kazakh - regions that would create a tactical bridge from Perdan, to Chaos temple, to Kalmar, right into the heart of the north. It'd be a dagger poised at the heart of Sirion, set to swipe down on our heads at that. Its very existence, empty claims of neutrality as they often are, threatens the north with twin-front wars for the foreseeable future.
Nivemus has 13 regions, and this war would deprive them of a quarter of their land, assuming they actually take -only- those three. Noble threads when skillfully weaved, but if they get Nivemus on the retreat... Big ol' eyes have a habit of thirsting for more. I'd bet on Gadlock and Juazeiro to really lock Nivemus out of future fights and secure the colony's multi-front advantage.
Gadlock might be badlands but its also a perfect staging-point for a siege against Kazakh. Juazeiro's a rural breadbasket with a rich port beside roughly sixty percent of Westmoor's population just outside of Old Rancagua's former capitol.
With both regions they'd effectively deny the north its easiest avenue of naval invasion, prevent an easy siege-point against Kazakh, and secure their own future siege against Oroya. Worst of all, they could gobble up the roguelands east of Juazeiro and arguably create twin colonies; effectively cleaving the north from within.
Either I'm a better strategist than they are, or I've merely uncovered the long-game behind their clever plot. Something tells me I'm not the first one to consider such a plan.
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch
Also, might I remind you,
"Letter from Lionel Kinsey Player experience level: mentor Player play preference: combat
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
As for nobles leaving Eponllyn and retiring, I will say this:
When the northern realms began taking region after region, the southern realms whined, and the Titans decreed that the number of regions a realm may hold was now tied to its number of nobles.
When the northern realms kept winning battle after battle, the southern realms whined, and the Titans decreed that alliances are now limited by their total number of regions.
And when the southern realms began minting new noble after new noble, the Titans said nothing.
I do not blame anyone for leaving. If I were not still holding onto my oaths to the Xerarch, I would have retired a long, long time ago.
Lionel Kinsey
Talon of Eponllyn
Count of Dulbin
Marshal of the Phoenix Hussars"
"The flip of bruck was by a player/character who was bored, which is fine, but growing discontent was never known outside of discord."
Do you not recall the massive argument, and RP's, and unfortunately personal OOC attacks, over a month ago, resulting from Nabarl bringing up a series of events that included the whole Perdanese slave thing?
Or when Sigrid stated publicly that she wanted to find Goldwing Renodin, and Kinsey called him a traitor to the Xavax? Or any of the other of a series of discussions that took place?
This is not the first time y'all have forgotten what happened and accusing me of making things up or doing things without precedent. I have missives dating back to 2017 when Sigrid came to Sirion and kicked off many of the events that came to pass. But, for now, back to Eponllyn:
Sigrid spoke to the King of Eponllyn -extensively- about her feelings on the current state of Eponllyn, and went so far as to state she was planning to leave. The Blood King tried to convince her to stay, and she ended up being being made countess of Bruck after providing counsel about the ongoing colony effort's intel her spies were gathering and forwarding to the Blood King, despite repeatedly stating she wanted to leave Eponllyn to go on to bigger and better things. She made a massive hullabaloo, publicly and privately, accusing the Redwing Xavax of being out-dated, wrinkled old men chasing after phantoms of the past via their hate of a Perdan now populated by noble families who don't even know, understand, or in any way took part in the Xavax wars. She publicly demanded both Nabarl and the Judge of Eponllyn explain themselves regarding the Perdanese slave accusations, and ended that whole bit with effectively telling everyone to screw off. So on and so forth.
June 6th or 7th (ish) is when most of these took place. I will post some of the public ones as proof of Sigrid's ongoing feelings, arguments, and public discussions.
"Letter from Lionel Kinsey Player experience level: mentor Player play preference: combat
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - 9 hours, 41 minutes ago
Dame Sigrid Gudrun,
Perhaps you will recall that Asher Renodin was a traitor who defected to First Oligarch just as we were about to storm Oligarch. He and Garas Gabanus fled to Perdan after we destroyed First Oligarch.
After that, Asher climbed quite high in Perdan, and was even crowned King for a while, but he later disappeared in circumstances that remain unknown to us. If the Perdanites knew why he disappeared, they did not tell us.
And some time after that, a noble named Nemean JeVondair Renodin appeared in Eponllyn. Several of us questioned his loyalty, but Xerarch Selenia insisted that he be allowed to stay, likely because he is a relative of the Xerarch. But two months after the Xerarch retired, Nemean fled across the border and joined up with Perdan. He serves Perdan to this day.
... And I see that Smiddich Fontaine was just elected as the new King of Perdan. The Perdanites seem quite fond of electing former Xavax traitors as their Ruler.
Lionel Kinsey
Talon of Eponllyn
Count of Dulbin
Marshal of the Phoenix Hussars"
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"Report from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in Player experience level: mentor Player play preference: rp
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - just in
Strategos Kinsey,
Many years ago, in the final hours of his reign, First Xerarch Magnus named you Strategos of the Xavax Imperium - that you might safeguard the peace beside our half-sister as she took to the throne. You sacred task was to bring war upon those who would dare silence us. For both First and Second Xerarchs, the end goal was never an eternal war. You know this, and yet you have faltered.
Have we been exiles for so long that we've forgotten the essence of Xavax? What we cannot secure by force, we finesse through guile. We have become a bitter people incapable of seeing past the red tides of Perdanese blood.
We ground Itorunt into dust and sacked Semall. We brought the imperial vanguard to the very root of the bandit kingdoms and wiped clean the slate of their unspeakable crimes. Unto ashes and dust are our enemies, but their friends remain... How many, exactly? How many of the traitors, the Dodgers, still live?
Who are we fighting... Striking out in fear of shadows from the past. Grizzled old men who can no longer remember what we were fighting -for-. Itching for blood and fire; war and righteous annihilation...
We lost our sense of peace long ago. All that remains are the wraiths of a dead empire whose souls refuse to rest.
"1) The Enemy of my Friend is my Enemy.
2) The Friend of my Enemy is my Enemy.
3) The Enemy of my Enemy is an Enigma.
4) The one who Fights Beside Me is my Friend."
– Noiram'Kah
"This is where I will be laid to rest...At first I fought because I didn't know how to do anything else. Then I found something to live for. Now I have something to die for. If that isn't worth the trouble, the grief, and the heartache, then I do not know what is. I can tell you for certain, if I was still a Knight of Partora, living comfortably and rich in gold, I would not know any of the peace I know here and now."
– Sir Gilth Gildre
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
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...Or when Sigrid publicly threatened to execute Nabarl after y'all accused him of being a Perdanese spy, while simultaneously being pissed at the Talon and Arbiter alike, and also mentioning publicly why she was in Eponllyn in the first place, which had also been discussed in private with other characters prior and after these events.
"Request from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in Player experience level: mentor Player play preference: rp
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - just in
Royal Nabarl,
Watch your tongue when you address the blood-heirs of the Phoenix. You may have qualms with some of us, but to insult Xavax is to insult us all.
While we're on the topic of spies, I have something to say.
I was dispatched to Eponllyn years ago on a mission to spy on the reigning king, in the midst of a potential deal where I would be married to them as 'Xavax princess, heir to the First Xerarch' in order to solidify relations between our realms, and possibly form a new home for the Xavax.
Anyone who knows me, knows that I was not a fan of this deal, or the stupid bloody title. Still, if it meant an avenue toward the reclamation of our homeland, I was willing to make the necessary sacrifices and sell my soul to the devil.
In building a dossier on civil, military, economic, and political realities within Eponllyn, while influencing the king's perspective on Xavax relations and the boon our warriors and strategists would offer, I dispatched valuable data back home to our Xavax - with which we would gauge whether or not this deal had merit, or if the former king just wanted a Xavax trophy-wife on the side of an already profitable deal of taking in a massive influx of well-trained immigrants to populate their dying realm.
During negotiations I fell ill and entered the long-sleep. Oh, my surprise to awaken and find my fellow Xavax... Rather, a select few Xavax... Here in Eponllyn.
Apparently negotiations proceeded well in my absence? That or fate took an ironic twist and we ended up here by some other means.
So please, with that in mind... Please do not talk so lightly about spies when we Xavax have so proud a history of employing espionage to further our goals.
Royal Narabl,
Answer to someone who knows a thing or two about the topic.
Did you spy on Eponllyn on behalf of foreign powers or did you not. A simple answer to a simple question.
Do not lie to me. I have no qualms about gutting a royal publicly, ban be damned. I belong to Xavax, and Xavax is dead.
By the Phoenix,
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
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Here's a few more, also from the first week of June. Tell me again how this was a last-minute decision with no basis on Sigrid's general feelings toward Eponllyn, the Redwings, and the direction the realm is taking, beside her own feelings on putting aside the hate of Perdan to pursue healthier things:
...And the one where Kinsey talked down to Sigrid, referencing Titan decisions, after completely forgetting or willingly ignoring the fact that Sigrid was physically IN Sirion prior, during, and after we planned and founded Redhaven; Sigrid was a Lord of Sermbar IN Redhaven; and Sigrid was an extremely vocal part of the many discussions that took place in Sirion and Redhaven among the Xavax. Up to, until, and even after she was rebuked by the dominant Redwing faction for suggesting we negotiate with the south. I went so far as to send a series of missives denoting a 4-part plan, with various potential asides, of major avenues we can take to found a new Xavax colony: one was around Oligarch, one in the Obsidian Isles, and the other two were in the south. One of my plans was to overthrow the Sirion government and use Sirion's long-standing power and economy to carve our way south. Behind closed doors, a further 2 potential colony plans were discussed, which were not mentioned in the main Xavax group because we were being rebuked so aggressively for the more tame concepts, even though I did blatantly state the idea of overthrowing Sirion at least once. When the Redwings refused any negotiation with the south, she blatantly stated she would do so anyway so long as it gets us home to Xavax, and with the private but very vocal support of a number of Xavax within and beyond Sirion, then linked up with folks across the continent to negotiate with their respective rulers and councils. Recall that Sigrid publicly announced she had received overwhelming support from nobles of every northern and southern realm, promises of thousands of gold in funding, and assurances from various dukes and council members of various realms in support of the Goldwing-led colonial planning. She publicly announced that she and her allies had negotiated with Vix Tiramora+other realms both northern and southern to establish a Xavax colony that would specifically split the North and south apart, bring about a ceasefire between all involved parties due to both parties having to march through the Demilitarized Zone that the new colony would form. This ceasefire would last up to three, at the most six months in-game-time, and allow everyone to re-assess their long-term goals, while we negotiated further for a prompt return to Xavax proper as a reward for halting the continental war, tempering the north-south schism, and bringing peace across the land. Unfortunately, we were silenced - despite overwhelmingly achieving everything we claimed we wanted out of the Path of Ashes. The goal was to go home in peace, and we had it in our hands, but the dominant faction's hatred of Perdan won out in the end.
"Letter from Lionel Kinsey Player experience level: mentor Player play preference: combat
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
Dame Sigrid Gudrun,
Please, I ask that you do not lecture me on the teachings of the Xerarch. While you were gone, I fought for the Xerarch for decades. And after she was gone, I fought on for yet more decades for the sake of her nobles, and for the sake of the Eponlli nobles.
Since you have been gone since before the Path of Ashes, allow me to summarize the broad strokes of what happened. If anyone sees anything incorrect, feel free to correct me. I do not claim to have an infallible memory.
We were fighting the two bandit realms, and winning. They sought help from Perleone, Vix, and Perdan. Fallangard helped us for a while, but then switched sides after they began losing regions. It was then six realms versus one.
Through the Xerarch's diplomatic efforts, Sirion and her allies made the gesture of declaring war on Perdan et al, but they were busying dealing with a rebellious Sirionite duke in Oligarch, who called himself the Grand Duke of First Oligarch. Caligus was contesting Fallangard's claim on Hamadan, and was fighting Fallangard the entire time.
We managed to barely hold the line, but then the Duke of Isadril betrayed us. We were quickly reduced to Xavax city and a few other regions. The Xerarch made the decision to walk the Path of Ashes north. The bandit realms and Perleone swept in and began killing in Xavax city. Men, women, children, anyone and almost everyone who did not flee north with us were put to the sword. At one point, Xavax city was reduced to a few dozen souls.
We moved north and joined Sirion, who gave Krimml to us to set up a new realm. We established the Xerarchy of Redhaven, and then after some time, we managed to help Sirion destroy First Oligarch. Sirion allowed us to take Oligarch as a war prize.
By this time, Eponllyn was being hard pressed by Perdan, and Caligus had already lost many regions to the combine forces of Fallangard, Vix, and Perleone. They set up a colony realm called Highmarch, which controlled the lands around Domus and Akesh Temple. The bandit realms roamed where they could in Eponllyn and Caligus, killing and raping wherever they went.
With the acquiescence of Sirion, Redhaven, and other allies, Caligus's King tried to surrender to the southern realms. All they asked for was neutrality. The enemy's counter-offer was "switch sides or be destroyed".
From that depth, from that pit, we fought back. Redhaven, Nivemus, Eponllyn, Sirion, Shadowdale, and Caligus against the rest of the continent. Perleone eventually began fighting the bandit realms, which helped turn the tide of the war.
We helped Caligus take back much of their lost lands. We helped Shadowdale take Akesh Temple. The King of Caligus convinced the leaders of Highmarch to switch sides, and eventually join Caligus. Caligus finally reclaimed Hamadan and drove Fallangard south of the river, into Isadril.
Perdan held us off for a long time with the choke-point of Bescanon, but Eponllyn eventually reclaimed Bescanon by magick and by guile. But by this time, the many restrictions the Titans have placed upon us have taken its toll, and the war began to stall as far as territorial gains and losses. Redhaven merging with Eponllyn was one of the many tactics we tried in trying to regain some momentum.
And we eventually lost Bescanon again after Perdan surged in their number of nobles, and overran Bescanon with their sheer numbers.
As for the goings on in Perleone, the bandit realms, and our lost lands, there have been so many betrayals and upheavals over there that it would take another long letter to explain it all.
Lionel Kinsey
Talon of Eponllyn
Count of Dulbin
Marshal of the Phoenix Hussars"
---
-
Now, with more focus on proving the precedent behind Sigrid's actions long before, and leading up to, abandoning Eponllyn - as well as showing that discussion did happen in Eponllyn regarding her feelings and various discussions about our troubles and differences in opinion:
"Letter from Lionel Kinsey
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
As for nobles leaving Eponllyn and retiring, I will say this:
When the northern realms began taking region after region, the southern realms whined, and the Titans decreed that the number of regions a realm may hold was now tied to its number of nobles.
When the northern realms kept winning battle after battle, the southern realms whined, and the Titans decreed that alliances are now limited by their total number of regions.
And when the southern realms began minting new noble after new noble, the Titans said nothing.
I do not blame anyone for leaving. If I were not still holding onto my oaths to the Xerarch, I would have retired a long, long time ago.
Lionel Kinsey
Talon of Eponllyn
Count of Dulbin
Marshal of the Phoenix Hussars
Letter from Lionel Kinsey Player
Message sent to all nobles of Eponllyn (13 recipients) - 46 minutes ago
And yes, King Kay's terms were terrible, and frankly, insulting. At worst, we really would have ended up as slaves in Perleone, to be used as cannon fodder against Yssrgard. At best, assuming that we somehow won, and Perleone kept their promises, we would have ended up with Xavax city and maybe a few more regions, as another vassal of the "Perleonite Empire".
Lionel Kinsey
Talon of Eponllyn
Count of Dulbin
Marshal of the Phoenix Hussars"
Also, in response to the earlier missives treating Sigrid like she's clueless: Sigrid isn't some new character that just showed up, got bruck, and bailed. There's a LOT of history behind her actions, and countless strings pulled.
Sigrid plotted with Hector Tandaros, Garas Gabanus, Asher Renodin, Smiddich Fontaine, Foxglove, and SO many others across the continent since mid-2017. Some of this, you're aware of. Just because you didn't personally receive (or read) a missive / RP doesn't mean it never happened, either.
"Letter from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (5 days, 1 hour ago)
(Personal message to Hector Serpentis Tandaros)
Xavax demands the blood of Xerarch. Where there were once Three annoited Xavax Princepts in Sirion, I find only two... Is it true then? Where has the third gone off to? Do tell me if he's been slain or imprisoned, that I might mount their [betrayer's] head atop their own walls some day.
...<Redacted>
And yet... The Xavax desire more. Its as plain as day. Why else would Xerarch Selenia's three princes, and so many other Xavax, have singularly converged in Sirion? Was there not a plot to obtain command of Oligarch, promptly ruined by typical courtly intrigue and divided loyalties...
No more. Let it be known that Xavax will rise again, come hell or high water.
Steadily, patiently, cleverly. Every move a calculated thrust. Every position a step higher up the ladder of power.
Speak of the devil... Ever considered throwing your name in for Judge? Looks like no one's done so yet...
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
Letter from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (3 days, 16 hours ago)
(Personal message to Hector Serpentis Tandaros)
Duke Hector,
You would be a damn good judge, Hector. You know that in your heart, or you wouldn't have chosen to run. I merely planted a seed which you chose to cultivate. Whether or not it flowers so soon, its roots will continue to grow.
Indeed, your assessment holds water. What we seem to need is a unifying force. A third-party voice, unknown to the masses, who might... Prod things in the right direction. Perhaps I can provide some impetus, however humble it may be. In these lands I am a nobody: yet a nobody may serve as tinder to light a spark.
Soft-power is a good long-term strategy. Cousin Selenia was far too accustomed to wielding great influence and power. Aggression has its time and place, and that is not when Xavax lies scattered like so many ashes. We must calculate each move with great care... What use is the elevation of a Xavax-run state if we are crushed in a fortnight; bled dry of food and funding; or poisoned by enemy presence within our ranks? Our ultimate goal is to resurrect Xavax - in a legitimate, healthy, and intelligent manner above all. Any less might doom the newborn Phoenix to an early grave.
Is Anarionath robust enough to support the minimum of nobles needed to rule its council, duchy, and regions? Food, troops, and gold are what make or break a newborn realm. Manpower is a non-issue: a call to arms can be issued at will to all those who still hold Xavax in their hearts.
Aye, I 've heard of the Oligarch plot... From my understanding, Asher was not alone in that plot. A number of Xavax felt apprehensive in executing the plan, and someone chose to bring it to light. Namely Lionel Kinsey, thereby sealing Asher's fate. From one perspective, this constitutes a certain betrayal of Xavax creed. In yet another, a defense of our overall reputation and neutrality. Aye, perhaps it was not the wisest plan, but it was an option that might elevate Xavax from its current place as mere vassals of a lukewarm patron state. We may have taken Oligarch over from within and soon replaced its ruler with our own, then allied with Sirion for good measure. There goes Sirion's rebel problem, and Xavax' homelessness in one protracted action. Alas, those options - and one of our Princes - have dissipated. Unfortunately, the bilateral ill-will attributed to said plot remains.
What has Prince Godric been up to? Any updates, news, or progress on his front? What, exactly, IS his goal? Has he stated one?
It would be most efficient for the Remnants of Xavax to meet in private council and discuss our options. Then, and only then, can we proceed to delegate duties and work toward resurrecting our slumbering Phoenix.
Are you on speaking terms with Prince Godric, or Prince Asher? Perhaps a discussion between the lot of us would accomplish what three exiled Princes alone could not.
Three Princes no more. Now we are Four. With cousin Selenia, we number Five. A most fortuitous number.
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch
Letter from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (3 days, 16 hours ago)
(Personal message to Hector Serpentis Tandaros)
Prince Hector,
May the Phoenix bless your union! I look forward to attending with great pleasure.
Thank you for not listing me as Princess. That would raise too many eyebrows, after all. Anonymity is a powerful tool.
I'm curious, is Lady Ali'a of Sirionite or Xavax origin? All the same, she will become one with Xavax in your joint-union.
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch
Proof of Sigrid and Kinsey having communicated IN Sirion IN 2017, I believe June 2017.
"Letter from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (3 days, 7 hours ago)
(Personal message to Lionel Kinsey)
Marshal Lionel,
That it does. Due to the time and distance involved in travelling to Sirion, I have been out of the loop for quite some time. Whispers, rumors, and gossip flow upon the tradewinds with ease; yet one cannot fully trust the curious mutterings of minor nobles and common men.
<blah blah blah>
That dream you hold requires a fine investment of time, effort, and cunning... Beside a final deposit of land, manpower, and gold to say the least.
Have the three Princes been faithful in their duty to Xavax? Though cousin Selenia has gone quiet in recent times, patience must not give way to stagnancy.
There is much to be done in preparation of a new Xavax state. One must remember that Sirion was never meant to be a permanent home to the Xavax creed: merely a welcome harbor against the storm that threatens to dampen Phoenix flame. They will be repaid for their benevolence, of course....
...Yet this is not Xavax, nor shall it ever be. It would be an insult to our Sirionite benefactors to expect any different.
The cinders of our beloved nest lie far to the south - beyond the borders of hostile states who do all in their power to keep our creed at bay.
Yet Xavax do not rest. Xavax do not twiddle their thumbs expecting miracles. Xavax do no go quietly into the night.
Tell me, what have our people accomplished to quicken the rise of Xavax? I'm sure there has been some measure of progress... It would be sorely disappointing to discover otherwise.
A Xavax Duke-Margrave. A Xavax Marshal. Perhaps a Xavax Judge in three day's time, provided we cast our vote for Hector Serpentis Tandaros...
...One must begin somewhere, eh?
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
One valid, perfectly understandable reason why y'all might not recall some details is because... especially after betraying Xavax prince Renodin... Nothing against Kinsey and Ka Habb as players, but these characters were purposely excluded from many discussions as a result of the Princes and various others mistrusting Kinsey and certain individuals connected to him. We did, though, converse occasionally, and I had information purposely (and unbeknownst to me, probably not so purposely) leaked here and there.
Report from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (3 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to: Hector Serpentis Tandaros ♂
Letter from Lionel Kinsey
(Personal message to Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in)
Dame Sigrid,
To be honest, House Kinsey has never been big fans of the elves, but war makes for strange bedfellows. Sirion has been welcoming to us, and they are one of the few allied realms large enough to absorb this many refugee nobles.
Of course, I still hold out hope that we can rebuild Greater Xavax someday.
Lionel Kinsey
Knight of Parm
Marshal of the Red Dragons"
"Letter from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (2 hours, 15 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Ali'a Bedegar ♀, Godric Tórrarin ka Habb ♂, Hector Serpentis Tandaros ♂
Who else among Sirion bears the crimson cloak of Xavax creed? Is it only we, along with Kinsey? Surely there must be more...
<blah blah blah personal crap>
Honorem Et Veritatem,
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
--- --- ---
A few more missives, just to deflate these claims and expose the depth to which Sigrid was involved in Xavax-related discussions and activities, on multiple fronts, with plots within plots within plots, weighing each side and trying to find a balance that gets us back to Xavax city above all, with zero intention of staying in the north. There's much more, but my post has dragged on too long as-is.
--- --- ---
"Report from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (2 hours ago)
Message sent to: Hector Serpentis Tandaros ♂
Letter from Garas Gabanus (just in)
Princess Sigrid,
I hope such is your title then. As to my own, you may call me whichever way you like milady, I have never cared much for titles. None beyond me will come to know of your arrival milady, not untill matters play out further at least. Selenia has been silent for weeks now, so it is quite likely that she does not yet know indeed, but for now such may be better. The south wishes her removed before they allow the return of Xavax and for now that may be wise, at least untill the north is broken and has given birth to a new era.
Lionel should have been loyal to his realm and the ideals it represented, but he failed at his greatest duty. Prince Serpentis' plans have reached me also and form a threat to our plans as it would exile the Xavax forces to the north, unable to truly act on anything worthwhile on this island. In stead we should push Sirion in that direction, a desolate north for desolate Elvish tyrants. But I am not surprised of the silence of the Sirion Senate, that is Ecthelion's trademark. I was in the Senate long and he would push forth his own plans quickly, but delay or even ignore any plans he did not like for years.
Such facts were already clear to the Oligarchians, but it is good to see others realise it as well. I hope we can reach an agreement between our nations. Right now the south is willing to refound Xavax in Fontan, if you aid us in taking it. At this point I command all the southern armies and we gain ground, but with the Xavax support we will quickly crush our enemies. At first they wished that Xavax becomes a democracy, but I am quite convinced I've been able to remove that change as it is a ridiculous demand.
Sirion from within can only be changed if you have sufficient nobles and subsequently protest their entire government out, or commit a coup while their army is at the Caligus front. Any other method will not work and while an agreement with the south may move you out of Sirion for such attempts, it will grant you a city.
Signed,
Garas Gabanus
Knight Commander of Highmarch
Marshal of the Democratic Defenders
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
"Letter from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (1 hour, 52 minutes ago)
(Personal message to Garas Gabanus)
Friend Garas,
Likewise: a title is hot air. Actions, not words, prove a man's mettle. Call a man the Jester for all its worth, but if he wields a blade with the power of a God, even tyrants would fear his wrath.
I am ill-at-ease to trust Kinsey overmuch. I have been matter-of-fact in keeping him out of Xavax communication since my arrival, with his propensity for Elvish bootlicking. Maybe he'll come around one day, but I will make it clear that it falls onto the Xavax to forgive his crimes.
Unlike my fool of a brother, I wish to instate a more democratic approach at empire without the obvious pitfalls it might bring. In his youthful naivete, he tried to cater to the whims of his people but the shouts of treasonous vermin proved loudest of all. In the most ironic turn of events, his very attempt at being democratic gave birth to the first Xavax Civil War. Granted, he was unwise in how he went about it.
One cannot be simultaneously democratic and undemocratic. Both empire and democracy bear inherent weakness, and the mixing of both most often leads to inheriting the vulnerabilities of both - and the strengths of neither.
The one redeeming feature I can recall of brother Magnus' plans were the eventual breakage of the empire into numerous smaller republican and democratic realms, free to pursue their own designs so long as they remained faithful to the creed of Xavax.
With a wiser rule, and more time, perhaps it would have worked.
...As such, he tried to accomplish too many divergent plans in too little time, with too many enemies calling at the gates.
Cousin Selenia did a damn good job fixing his mess, but at what cost? She tossed out his dreams of democracy in favor of a veritable tyranny.
I will not become a tyrant, nor will I favor the return of one. Cousin Selenia's right to rule has come and gone, and she knows it as well as I.
The time has come for a somewhat softer approach.
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
"Report from Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in (1 hour, 35 minutes ago)
Message sent to: Hector Serpentis Tandaros ♂
Letter from Garas Gabanus (5 minutes ago)
Friend Sigrid,
Very well, we shall remove the titles and focus on our true actions. Many things have gone wrong in the past, such is certain, but we can no longer change it and only the future lies in our grasp.
If yourself and Prince Asher can rally sufficient Xavax and join Highmarch in order to restore Xavax within Fontan City, coupled with my military guidance, I am certain we will see the rebirth of both our nations within a year. Even now the north fails to beat us, with the Xavax joining they will stand no chance and we'll accomplish a new north from the outside, with blood and steel shall the north be reborn.
If on top of this you wish to make Xavax more democratic, then the southern rulers will tumble to aid you to rebuild your realm, but even if you choose not to, you will have their aid. They now too understand the path I've shown them, why the Xavax are so important to all upon these lands.
Signed,
Garas Gabanus
Knight Commander of Highmarch
Marshal of the Democratic Defenders
Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in
Dame of Oligarch"
....So. With all that said,
Hopefully this is just a trick of forgotten memories and not an attempt at "character assassination", as I understand that a lot has happened over the years and details are easily forgotten.
If further doubt arises, I have dozens more where these came from. When in doubt, text-files are your friend ;)
-
If the above posts weren't crystal clear indication, I'm one of those "hyper-active" players folks like to harp on about.
I can deal with IC drama - that's a normal, natural, and welcome part of community interaction. Rivalries, enemies, all that is awesome.
But please don't try to paint me as a metagamer, or someone who made a split-second decision, who never spoke in-realm, and who never participated in Xavax events leading up to us being in Eppy,
I have an ocean of missives proving otherwise, and was far more involved in such events than I would usually bother admitting.
Now, after hours of dredging my harddrives for proof and a lot of angry typing, its 4 am and I'd like to grab some coffee before heading to work.
Say what you want about my character, from your character's perspective, according to your character's narrative and goals, but do not attempt to drag my name through the mud and tell the community I did not have perfectly damn good reasons to do what I did, every single step of the way.
-
So, BarticaBoat, I hope that this can put an end to the idea that the colony itself, and the departure of Sigrid with Bruck, were in any way planned or motivated by out-of-character interactions, on Discord or elsewhere.
I hope that it will also serve as an object lesson that just because you, personally, cannot think of a good in-character reason for something someone else did, that doesn't mean it was motivated by out-of-character concerns.
I further hope that it will remind everyone here that when you make those kinds of accusations, you are making them about real people, whose feelings are as real and valid as yours, and make you all think twice before voicing such insults in the future.
-
I will put this as simply as possible - you are saying the discord and the zeitgeist it presents has zero effects on the game? That it has never influenced writing a character motivation? That the concepts presented exist entirely separate in each individual's mind and that no contamination occurs? That months of vitriol against Nivemus never formented any lasting opinion or concept that was acted upon? In the case of Sigrid, that I didn't read on discord "someone talk to Sigrid so she can flip Bruck"? That would be a contamination not of Sigrid, but of others.
I am curious what the official directive is on the limits of this. As long as the note is written in BM proper, anything is justifiable?
The second point also concerns the devs so I will present it - I have never claimed you are at the beck and call of a tier of players. That is an absolute and easily disprovable. I will say when the devs can put a "give feedback" button on the account pages to get a broad perspective, why wouldn't they? The question is not an attack. I have never said you are opinion less and totally manipulated. I've asked are you infallible and immune to persuasion? Am I wrong for wondering from outside why you don't ask us on the other side?
My final point was elaborated on by Gildre. I urge everyone to take a moment and think about it. What has been written on discord already about this?
-
I will put this as simply as possible - you are saying the discord and the zeitgeist it presents has zero effects on the game?
Of course not, that would be absurd.
I'm saying that Discord and the zeitgeist it presents has a positive effect on the game.
In the case of Sigrid, that I didn't read on discord "someone talk to Sigrid so she can flip Bruck"?
I don't know if you read that, but that's not what happened.
I am curious what the official directive is on the limits of this. As long as the note is written in BM proper, anything is justifiable?
If two or more people discuss on Discord an RP situation they want to play out in-game, then play it out in-game, that is fine.
If two or more people discuss on Discord a battle plan they want to enact in-game, then they lay it out in-game and give the orders, that is fine.
If two or more people discuss on Discord a betrayal of a realm, then have the situations that lead up to it play out in-game, that is fine.
If two or more people discuss something on Discord and then have that trigger in-game events with zero in-game justification, that is, at best, not fine. But that's not what happens in 99% of cases—and, again, you not knowing about the in-game justifications does not mean they do not exist. (Though I would very, very strongly encourage players to make at least the barest hints of in-game justifications for events like major betrayals ahead of time—which, in the cases at hand, did happen, so, no problem!)
For the entire life of BM, people have planned certain events outside the game. Some of these plans have been healthy, some have not, but if we banned planning in-game events on Discord, those who genuinely want to create unrest by doing so would have no problem taking it to Discord PMs, email, IRC, WhatsApp, or (as some groups have in the past) just talking to each other in person, if they're in close physical proximity—while those who just want to plan something fun and interesting without having to go through the much-more-cumbersome in-game message system to do so would be punished for it.
The second point also concerns the devs so I will present it - I have never claimed you are at the beck and call of a tier of players.
You may not have. Some have, and there have been enough similar discussions in the recent past that it is possible I inadvertently mixed you up with some of those who did. If so, I apologize; I have no desire to put words in anyone's mouth.
I will say when the devs can put a "give feedback" button on the account pages to get a broad perspective, why wouldn't they? The question is not an attack.
We have invited feedback over every medium available to us, and here you are, giving feedback over one of those media. I suppose we could add a "feedback" subforum or something, and link to it...? But that wouldn't really give any more options than currently exist...
I have never said you are opinion less and totally manipulated. I've asked are you infallible and immune to persuasion?
Infallible? No.
Immune to persuasion? Well, maybe you could convince me I am... ;D
Of course no one's immune to persuasion, but 99% of the time, when Player X is complaining that I've been influenced to do things a certain way, either a) I was already planning to do the thing before Player X's in-game enemies suggested it, b) the thing they wanted me to do made sense and was the right thing to do regardless of its impact on a particular in-game situation (which I was fully aware of), or c) the incident in question was a Titan case or other matter of rulebreaking, where, y'know, the person had actually broken the rules.
My final point was elaborated on by Gildre. I urge everyone to take a moment and think about it. What has been written on discord already about this?
Gildre and I—and the Titans, more generally—have begun discussing this, and I have asked for specific examples, because personally, I cannot recall specific instances of this happening, but I am genuinely concerned about it—not just that it has been happening without my realizing it, but that I could have been among those leading people to feel unheard and invalidated. That is definitely not the atmosphere I want to create here.
I want to be clear, though: While I want to ensure people feel accepted and heard in the Discord as in the game, I still will not tolerate blatant disrespect for other players, volunteers, or Vita and me. Conspiracy theories, casual accusations of bias, and other forms of insulting behaviour are and will remain completely unacceptable.
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There are a few things to unpack here.
First of all, Nivemus is in not way being attacked "because discord". That is an absolute ridiculous notion. Nivemus is a target because they both essentially have rogue lands they hold on to, meaning several regions they could never put a lord in, and their own actual in character actions. I can personally attest to this as I was in Nivemus. I went there, did as I was told, marched with the armies, and yet was kicked out of every estate I ever took. I was told that I must march with the armies, and when I brought up that I could not afford a unit because I couldn't take and estate, I was told I was a trouble maker and that I should leave. This has happened to more than one person that I have seen. I was a brand new player back then and had no idea even what a Titan was, so don't come at me about "Oh why didn't you report them!!!!". This is an absolutely horrendous way to treat a new player, and yes, Brock as the ruler, was as directly responsible for this treatment as the rest of the council and the lords in question of the regions. If I did not already have other characters elsewhere, and know that the entire game wasn't like that, I likely would have quit the game completely. In fact, I did quit EC completely for a long while, and only came back because some on discord actually convinced me that it was worth trying other realms. I had though this is how EC played and I wanted no part of that absolute trash of treatment to players. And before people come in asking me "what I did", because I was hounded with those same questions on discord from some, not a damn thing. I joined the realm, and was told to march with the army. I did so. I was kicked out of estates, never allowed to have one. In fact, I have never met the armies of the north in combat the entire time I have played BM, even when I had a character in the south. Yet, while I was in Nivemus I did fight against the south several times. Was still treated as nothing more than a stat stick to move around as they pleased. I'm sorry, but these are inexcusable actions and if I had known what the titans were at the time I 100% would have reported this crap. I am not the only one that has been treated badly there.
Secondly, it is not discords fault that things change. At least the people on discord can be confronted. Unlike those that hide in the Admin/OOC chat in game. If you want discord to have your view point, you need to rejoin and have more people with your view join as well. There has actually been a lot of discussions among the admins and moderators in how to reign in the more toxic personalities on discord, but no matter how much is brought in, other view points will never been seen if people only come in as ones and twos. A single voice is rarely heard, but thats doesn't mean they are less valid. There is more than one way to play this game. There always will be. None of them are wrong, even if some people don't have fun with some ways to play. I'm not overly found of just marching to war endlessly. I don't hate it, but it that's all there is I'll pass. Others love it, it's why they play. They aren't wrong for wanting to play that way. The main issue I see, and I have expressed this both on discord and in game both to other players as well as the mods and admins, is that there very clearly is 2 sides forming, and both sides view the other as the enemy. This is what is wrong with the game. Neither side is the enemy. They are just two different ways to play and have fun. What we need is to find a compromise between the 2 sides so that both sides can have fun without ruining the fun of the other side.
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I think there are really good points and counterpoints being brought up here, but I will ask that all participating remain civil and constructive, non-aggressive, and avoid any pointed digs or accusations towards specific players. This is not the appropriate avenue for that.
Luitolf, I completely agree. The Titans were an unknown entity to me until I had a year or so in-game. It is impossible to expect a new player to know to submit a Titan report if something is wrong.
That being said, the Titan team cannot be everywhere, and we do not actively police the game. It would be impossible to do so. So, I am really not sure how to prevent such situations. This is why I generally encourage people to submit a Titan report when they think something isn't right. One of two things will happen. Either we look into it, and it is not a breakage of rules, and everything is fine. Or it is a breakage of rules, and now we know about it and can do something about it.
An important responsibility of seniority is transitioning from learning the game to helping make sure new players are able to learn and enjoy it.
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There's a lot to unpack in this whole topic. I'm probably going to forget something I would like to contribute after mulling over it all day.
First off, I do want to apologize for how you've been treated upon the discord. That is not the welcoming experience we want to ensure in any part of the BattleMaster community experience in-game, on the wiki, on the forum, or on discord. I think what often happens, and what we've been attempting to address since Perleone was a big bloc of players drowning out other southern realm player voices, is that each individual, wanting to contribute, chimes in with their voice one by one. And when its an imbalance of many shared perspectives versus one, it quickly feels like a hostile dogpile. As these concerns, various increases in moderation have been adopted. Since your last night in Discord, we've implemented channel slowmode (limiting rate of posts per person per allotted time) and locking the channel from posts as moderator commands. That said, it does *not* excuse some of your own behaviour on the discord either. Overall, I felt very disappointed by that *entire* conversation. Overall, there is a strong lack of people *listening* to one another and I thank Gildre for raising this and Anaris for reminding us that we are all *real people* on the other side of the screen.
I will put this as simply as possible - you are saying the discord and the zeitgeist it presents has zero effects on the game? That it has never influenced writing a character motivation? That the concepts presented exist entirely separate in each individual's mind and that no contamination occurs?
Nothing has zero effects on the game. There are many conscious and unconscious ideas affecting our characters and it is upon us to do our best to be mindful of OOC knowledge intermingling with IC. There's also different types of OOC influence between the negative misusing OOC information for IC gain and the positive developing your character for OOC enjoyment over strict interpretation of what ones character would do (http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/06/23/stanislavski-vs-brecht-in-tabletop-roleplaying/). Practically speaking, as Tom noted, there's only so much to be done to stop OOC discussions, they will occur somewhere; at least with discord, it can be moderated under our influence. As it has increasingly been when noted as necessary. When it is evident someone *has* circumvented the in-gane message system with OOC messages, yes the Titans will issue a judgment.
I will say when the devs can put a "give feedback" button on the account pages to get a broad perspective, why wouldn't they?
Player-wide surveys are something that have been worked with off and on for quite awhile. It was an idea in 2012. Tim finally worked on them I think in 2014 or so, but didn't get fully finished. I implemented new player surveys some months ago, though there's a bug I need to fix with some of them. After the huge Beluaterra ruler OOCfest in May, I started turning my attention to one-off surveys on related matters of the game's direction, government member performance, titan perception, player mortality et cetera. But summer tends to be a lowpoint in my BattleMaster-related time, so I haven't had the focus to sit down and complete them; I was fiddling with the mobile display for the surveys last I remember. As with most things in BattleMaster, they're a work in progress, along with what Anaris mentioned elsewhere about limited time and motivation being sapped.
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Unlike those that hide in the Admin/OOC chat in game.
There's no hiding by using that channel, and its a perfectly valid and welcomed channel to use for matters that pertain to the island and game as a whole.
The main issue I see, and I have expressed this both on discord and in game both to other players as well as the mods and admins, is that there very clearly is 2 sides forming, and both sides view the other as the enemy. This is what is wrong with the game. Neither side is the enemy. They are just two different ways to play and have fun. What we need is to find a compromise between the 2 sides so that both sides can have fun without ruining the fun of the other side.
And this is why we need to start listening to each other, to turn that around.
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Hey, I don't think it's cool to share cherry-picked in-realm IC messages on the public forum, even if some of them are fairly old.
What did I even do to you? :(
This is why so many sensitive discussions these days happen among a few trusted nobles, while most new players get cut out of the fun. Too many players think "to everyone in the realm" = public.
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Hey, I don't think it's cool to share cherry-picked in-realm IC messages on the public forum, even if some of them are fairly old.
What did I even do to you? :(
This is why so many sensitive discussions these days happen among a few trusted nobles, while most new players get cut out of the fun. Too many players think "to everyone in the realm" = public.
This is 100% completely out of line, on several levels.
First of all, they were directly and specifically accused of OOC misconduct, and every post they shared was clearly chosen to refute those accusations.
Second of all, how can you possibly read what they wrote and ask "what you did"? You accused the Titans of IC bias, you implied that recruiting and keeping new players was somehow against the rules, and you belittled and condescended to Sigrid. The posts chosen were not an attack on you; they were very clearly chosen to demonstrate why Sigrid felt disaffected in Eponllyn. The fact that they made you look bad can be lain at your own feet.
And finally, I want to end that horribly toxic idea right now and forever. Every player who advocates for keeping discussions locked behind closed doors is personally responsible for driving away new players.
I don't care how you feel, how much it matters to you: Winning wars and gaining personal glory in-game is never more important than giving new players a vibrant, fun, and interesting realm to play in, where they can feel included and understand not only what's going on, but why.
I strongly urge you to take some time to examine why you think your right to "win" a game that cannot be won is more important than the right of the people around you to enjoy playing it.
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Hey, I don't think it's cool to share cherry-picked in-realm IC messages on the public forum, even if some of them are fairly old.
What did I even do to you? :(
This is why so many sensitive discussions these days happen among a few trusted nobles, while most new players get cut out of the fun. Too many players think "to everyone in the realm" = public.
Wait, what? I don't recognize the username, my apologies. Which missive is this in reference to?
Also, pardon me if I'm incorrect and just don't realize it, but I've always been under the impression that non-RP 'everyone in the realm' missives are, in fact, absolutely public, and to be treated as such.
I do believe a recent addition to remedy any potential misunderstandings related to RP inclusion was the "private/public-ask/public-open" options, but I'm not sure if this is at all reflected upon copying an RP/missive to be quoted.
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A few things to note here:
I absolutely agree that new players should be treasured and inducted into the game with a welcoming touch, rather than punished and excluded. I'm not, however, a new player. To Eponllyn? Alright, I'll give you that.
The reason I fell in love with BM around a decade ago took place on my 2nd BM reincarnation. The then-duke of Phantaria, marshal of the Phantarian Pride, took me under their wing and mentored me. They educated me on in-game mannerisms, politics, social contract, mechanics, country intrigue, and even let me learn how to fight and lead by making me Vice-Marshal of the Phantarian Pride. Their mentorship taught me enough about BM to feel useful - but its their patience and kindness toward a new player that made me want to stay. Their influence led directly to Alura Aurea becoming an active member of the community, and eventually ruler of Terran, upon which I linked up with Rynn JeVondair. JV later took me under their wing, opening my eyes to so many unique aspects of the game I never knew existed. In time, another player would do the same for me - that of Renodin. Miss you, man.
This experience was vastly different to my earlier, original attempt at playing BM in the early/mid 2000's. I don't recall much of my experience back then, so I cannot comment reliably. Suffice to say, I just didn't feel meaningfully engaged, valued, and unique as a character.
Twice over the last decade, following my departure from Terran and BM, JeVondair personally reached out to me via email and convinced me to return to BM full-time and actually stay for a while: including my 3rd account where I played Magnus Aurea who together with JV founded the Greater Xavax Imperium.
Then, as Yxevarii Auru'in in Obia'Syela (BT) via my newest and current account, JV apologized for some of the things that had taken place during our time in Xavax, then proceeded to engage meaningfully with what was entirely designed as a throwaway Hero. Yxevarii was made to fizzle out and die gloriously after what I assumed would be yet another temporary bout of disappointment. This was not the case. OS had, and continues to have, a vibrant community of wonderful players - both RPers and otherwise - who make effort to include one another, or at the very least not actively sabotage the enjoyment of our characters by actually giving a damn about each other as if we were playing among friends. This includes those who they technically have perfectly-valid IC reasons not to welcome into our theocracy. Still, they see one another as players here to have fun as friends playing a fantasy game, and do their damn best to respect everyone no matter their playstyle, activity levels, or class preference. Yxevarii's rivalry with Astros Renodin was conducted in a healthy manner, whereby we behaved as two friends having fun by playing diametrically-opposite characters who constantly try to murder and foil one another's plots at every turn. Renodin was a gentleman, despite being my greatest enemy IC, and regularly made effort to ensure that what we were doing was still fun for both of us. My experience in OS was, and continues to be, vastly more enjoyable than that of Xavax, or even Terran. Though I inevitably quit after playing from 2017 to 2018, leaving Princess Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in of the Xavax Goldwings, and Yxevarii's rulership of OS behind, it was for perfectly healthy reasons this time. I was busy, got burned out, and took a step back to focus on RL.
Before I explain a few more issues I believe to be relevant here, thank you whoever changed the account deletion protocol. Your efforts allowed the Auru'in account to still exist when Renodin convinced me (via discord!) to give BM one more try, a few months ago. It is so disheartening to have remembered BM, hoped to give it another chance, and find out that my past efforts and history was wiped from existence the other times I paused out. I've spoken to other returning veterans who delayed their return by months or even years due to the loss of an old account. This has made a major difference, allowing me to step back into Sigrid, Yxevarii, and Masalu's shoes. I'm profoundly grateful for your consideration of old, paused-out players, who might one day return to the fray.
The second time I quit BM, circa 2012-2013? Was around the time of Aurvandil's multi-account situation. Knowing that some among our adversary skewed the game through unfairly-advantaged tactics made me feel disenfranchised - like players were fighting an uphill battle we could not hope to compete with. The prevailing feeling was that where there's one, there's likely more - and putting in all the effort of creating content was doomed to be steamrolled at the hands of someone who could just make a bunch of fake accounts and tip the scales. All this for the sake of winning a game never meant to be won. (outside of a single, specific island made for precisely that purpose.)
I've always felt that the point of BM is to play together as a community of content creators. That, win or lose, the purpose of it all was to weave a collaborative story of glory and sacrifice; of faith and hopeless. It was at a point in my life where I was heavily into the Dwarf Fortress community, where as we say, "Losing is fun." The unfair, meta-gamed advantages exposed by Aurvandil made it so that losing didn't feel fun anymore, and winning was a forgone dream one couldn't not aspire to without bending the rules... And that isn't what BM was supposed to feel like. Not to me, at least. It has always been about the journey, not the destination, and both felt equally pointless. So, I quit - but a few years later, circa 2015/2016, I came back.
The third time I quit was especially relevant to this thread. I made the mistake of letting scars of Aurvandil cloud my judgement - alongside an even worse problem: as a result of trying to outmatch potential/perceived meta-gaming alongside my own personal baggage, I dumped far too many hours of my life into meticulously hand-crafting a realm, culture, and faith for the sake of "beating adversity to the punch." I should have taken a step back, but instead doubled-down - sacrificing countless sleepless nights to the glow of a computer screen. In fact, I got far too attached to my character, took what I'd created to heart, and felt pressured into behaving a certain way when things didn't go according to plan. That's where I messed up the most - I stopped playing for the journey and made it all about the destination. I am at fault for not moderating the "bleed" - allowing myself to get emotionally affected by things that should have begun and ended IC; alongside my obsession with creating a legacy that would stand the test of time in the face of those who might bear some unfair advantage I might not yet foresee. I tried to be everywhere, do everything, and stretched my self painfully-thin in ways no one can excuse or justify. I did not handle IC attacks as well as I would have liked, but I completely lost my cool in response to ooc attacks against my personal character as a human player. I'm not proud to admit that I eventually resorted to same-similar toxic behavior when I responded via that now-infamous Xavax forum thread - the one that resulted in Kellan Dodger's player being banned, and myself quitting shortly thereafter. I was not in a healthy place in RL and allowed that to bleed into my IC life, which went full-cycle and affected my RL emotional state in one hell of a negative feedback loop. The more I tried to squeeze out the happy juice by playing BM, the worse it got. In a way, it became a sort of addiction: if not a self-fulfilling doom-scroll prophecy I was destined to lose. In the end, I'd completely forgotten that losing was supposed to be part of the fun.
This third time was a prime example of "playing to win". Perhaps not in the classical sense, because I failed to realize how I was pitting my personal feelings against a fantasy world that should have been a source of joy, and not misery. I remember dreading every log-in during the events leading to and from Xavax Civil War. By then, the game had stopped being fun. It had stopped being a game, in fact. The personal attacks had become a source of emotional turmoil - but I refused to do what I perceived as being pressured to give up and step away from everything I had struggled to create. It wasn't merely in-game events that made me feel this way, it was a specific kind of message from a specific character, and later, that specific player's ooc insults - alongside a separate but related situation where I felt like a trusted friend had thrown me to the dogs while asking me to stay quiet about it. While one can justify not wanting to give up in the face of adversity, I should have taken a step back, assessed the situation, and if need be, reported it to the admins for mediation. Instead I took things to heart and made a total ass of myself by failing to control my emotions.
Ironically, considering its a chain of events from a fantasy world, the fallout of the Xavax civil war directly led to me going to therapy and figuring out some of my RL character flaws, anxieties, and stressors. For that, I'm thankful to Dodger, JeVondair, and the Xavax - rivals and friends alike. I was not in a good place mentally due to RL events, and that bled horribly into how I played the game. In many ways, I was living vicariously through my character, and that isnever a healthy behavior.
Since then, I've spoken to and made peace with the players of JeVondair, and especially Kellan Dodger. We've all analyzed, accepted, admitted, and apologized for being emotionally-charged jackoffs taking a game way too seriously because of RL drama clouding our judgment.
Sometimes, due to circumstances IC and-or OOC, we can lose sight of the meaning behind BM. When that happens, we must take a good look at ourselves and think:
What exactly is my goal here? Am I doing this for the right reasons? How would I feel if someone else did this to me? Am I playing for the journey, or have I become obsessed with the destination? Am I playing as a healthy, constructive member of a community of friends?
Most of all, we have to wonder,
Am I still having fun? At what cost to myself and others? What can I do to remedy this situation?
Sometimes, as I had to learn the hard way, the best thing we can do is take a step back and reassess what it is we're really doing here. Sometimes, unfortunately, we're so focused on not giving up our place in the sun, and others have to do it on our behalf. Sometimes it other players. Sometimes its the Titans. Sometimes, its people in RL. Either way, an intervention was usually long-overdue and we just didn't realize it yet.
Whether by an Aurvandil multi-bolting, an Atamaran refugee turned Xerarch's personal feuds blown wildly out of proportion, or just feeling burned out, I've been in your shoes, Bartica/Gold/etc.
Sometimes for the right reasons, but not always. Not usually. Please understand that this was for the good of the community - and for you as a character, player, and human being.
Please, take this time to ask yourself the questions listed above. Let this situation be a driving force for positive change - help give you a healthier perspective on BM; so you can come back a fairer, healthier, and productive member of our community of friends.
Enjoy the journey, and remember: losing can be fun too, my friend.
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Wait, what? I don't recognize the username, my apologies. Which missive is this in reference to?
GoldPanda is the player of the Kinsey family.
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(User was warned for this post)
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Please do not amateur psychoanalyze me it is incredibly condescending and goes beyond "sharing your experience". I have always played my characters as they are and focused on the resolution of their own stories, whether or not I'm writing 7k character RPs. That I don't play nicely with everyone or refuse to follow whatever the gang has cooked up today is because of my devotion to the story of my characters. I am committed to the organic storytelling that makes BM unique, not contrived stories cooked up in a fever of cigarettes and clacking away on a keyboard.
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While I acknowledge I was often spicy on discord, I noted many players attacked me outside of game topics and I responded in kind. A memorable debate on Politics and Religion really opened my eyes to the quality of people on the discord and the echo bubble that occurs (the one where they called my family members murderous psychopaths, until "one of their own" offered his own views on gun use). That I would butt heads in the EC chat was nearly a given at that point. Not that I think my last conversation was bad at all but even when confronted with real time examples of their behaviour I was gaslighted and ignored.
The discord has existed as a wild west under the guise of semi-official. You are correct about moderating OOC influence only going so far but the prominence of discord makes the influence that much more. Here's a suggestion: if it is a ooc community of friends, who care who plays which families? Conceal that information from search. I remember the vibes changing the moment they discovered the family I play. Let players reveal it if they wish.
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Thank you for sharing your experience Crypt.
I'm certain that there are plenty of people who can relate to you.
When I played more actively, I met plenty of people who were going through the same stuff, and I almost went through it myself.
Fortunately, I took a long break and nothing serious happened with me.
It is quite interesting to me, how the forum works. We are based in a game where debates are common, and the power that words hold is endless. We learn to block out the opposing side and only attack, rather than listen. We play the game where those with the strongest opinions typically win. However, when we come here, it should not be a game of "Attack" and "Defend". I imagine it to be even more so on the discord, where everything is happening very quickly and there is little time to think between messages. Please be respectful to each other, especially now that there was a major event in EC that has raised tensions to a new recent high.