Messages

1

Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: April 16, 2014, 09:59:15 PM »

Hopefully we won't do that again.  New charter reduces # of consuls to two.

Two too many, probably.

Making things more democratic is a poor solution to low voter turnout. Voting is but one method of participation, and if it may be among the more just, it doesn't mean its always, or even usually, the best.

Personally, I'm a traditionalist. Three Lights, three Luminaries, and three Consuls. Scrap the Regent and make Archons non-voting unless we just scrap them too.

Enter amazing grew-up-on-a-farm analogy: Sometimes you need to trim a tree to keep it healthy, but cutting away too much can kill it all the faster.

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Dwilight / Re: Sanguis Astroism

« on: April 16, 2014, 08:41:19 AM »

Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, how 'bout them Consul elections?  A fierce race between three great competitors, who knows what the outcome will be!  (cut to shot of snoozefest, no campaigning, no promises, no debates) Find out next time, on Sanguis Astroism Z!

The results are in with a dramatic twist ending.

Tune in next week for "Consul Elections 2: More nothing!"

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Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger

« on: July 07, 2013, 11:23:08 AM »

I can't see how anyone can interpret this as a friendly realm merger of equals.

The part were interpretation seems to be a problem is the "equals". Seeing as hierarchy is an important part of the game, it is a good place to judge what "equal" means. Well, Knights are equal in rank. As are the various lordships and dukes. It follows that rulers are equals. During a war, there is certainly inequality between the victor and the loser. But to a third party, they are still just two rulers whom are of equal rank to said third party.

Regardless of the measured strength of two realms, they are equal until one has "beaten" the other into submission. Generally speaking, you submit to the guy standing over your broken remains, not the guy watching from across the room.

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Magistrates Case Archive / Re: Terran-D\'Hara Realm Merger

« on: July 06, 2013, 05:32:06 AM »

I would like to submit the collective discussion, mostly ooc, from D'hara.

Letter from Pierre von Genf   (1 day, 20 hours ago)
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Welcome to D'Hara, Lord Grayson of Gretchew.

I owe an explanation to D'Harans for your coming, for it is not a surprise to me, even though the timing is. I have held talks with Grandmaster Alaster of Terran concerning their realm's fate. As you know, it is very unlikely that Terran will survive the combined assault of Phantaria and the Farronite Republic.

Grandmaster Alaster has accepted to transfer the regions of Terran to D'Hara once if and when he believed that there were no actual chance of defending them. In exchange, he only asked that only Astroist Lords be appointed to these regions, so as to comply with his oath to the church not to leave lands in other hands, something to which I readily agreed. As such, Lord Grayson retain the rights to Gretchew within D'Hara.

The capital, of course, would eventually have to be taken by force, and the same rule would apply as to its Lords.

Which brings me to a plan I have considered for some time now. D'Hara is becoming stretched almost to the breaking point. To keep these lands, it would better to split off into an eastern realm on the islands and the Sallowcape and a Maroccidens realm comprising Paisly, Chesney and Saffalore. Both realms would be viable. Both realms would be republican. And both realms would share a constitutional monarch, King Machiavel, who would hold the single D'Haran crown. I feel this would be a great boon for nobles of both sides.

This can be done quickly if we are to take these lands. What do you say?
Pierre von Genf
Prime Minister of D'Hara
Royal of D'Hara
Priest of Sanguis Astroism

Letter from Rurik Clarke   (1 day, 9 hours ago)
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Prime Minister,

I am opposed to accepting the regions of Terran. I am opposed to a pledge to place those regions under the lordship of any specific religion as lords are chosen by their peers based on ability. I am opposed to spiting any of D'hara's traditional lands off into another realm.

More importantly, I am opposed to your continued diplomatic policy of provoking other realms into declaring war on D'hara.

(ooc: Furthermore, such actions are not allowed to my understanding. It is a clear case of "peaceful" realm merging which is been disallowed by word of Tom.)
Rurik Clarke
Duke of Port Nebel
Margrave of Port Nebel

Out-of-Character from Pierre von Genf   (1 day, 8 hours ago)
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Tom has always been clear that while merging among equals is disallowed, surrendering is clearly allowed. Terran is being soundly defeated as of now. It is normal that they would seek refuge elsewhere. I am confident that this is strictly within the rules.
Olivier landry

Out-of-Character from Rurik Clarke   (1 day, 8 hours ago)
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Well, you can try painting it as a surrender, thou I am unsure how you surrender to someone who you are not in conflict with. It would be a technicality at best, which Tom is traditional fond of...
Dan Rhinehart

Out-of-Character from Kay Kinsey   (1 day, 4 hours ago)
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As long as one Terran region remains, it's fine. It's a technicality but it's hard to tell where you draw the line. No one was punished when almost all of Solaria merged into Luria Nova, leaving behind a non-viable rural region in the middle of nowhere.

There would be trouble if that one last region joined D'Hara, though. You can't surrender to a federation partner. I think that's silly.
Yangfan Wang

Out-of-Character from Machiavel Chénier   (1 day, 3 hours ago)
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It's vassalization... We are destroying the theocracy, eradicating the name, to put something D'Haran in its place. This is not a merger of equals. It's well within the rules.
Dominic

Out-of-Character from Rurik Clarke   (1 day, 2 hours ago)
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As far as I can tell, and with what I've heard from a game dev on the issue, it is a planned peaceful realm merger. That is not allowed.

Furthermore, Dustin O. (player of the Kabrinski family) should know this better than anyone. From the Kabrinskia Realm Merger Magistrate case:
Realm mergers are illegal. Realms may surrender to another, including annihilation of their lands, but they may not merge as equal entities on friendly terms.
You can't paint it as surrendering because it is not. Terran and D'hara are not enemies. You cannot take over the regions of another realm on friendly terms. The welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm is not allowed.

While the Kabrinskia Realm Merger case had the issue of the "last duchy allegiance change" bug, the verdict clarifies that the bug only made mergers easier, but the policy on them is independent of the bug.

Calling it "vassalization" or "surrendering" is just a rather poor attempt to pretend that it is different from previous cases and not against the rules.

For referance, previous cases are:

Merger of Solaria and Luria Nova
forum board <Edit: Was a link to relevant case>
Verdict: Guilty with one day lock

Kabrinskia Realm Merger
forum board <Edit: Was a link to relevant case>
Verdict: Guilty with three day lock
Dan Rhinehart

Out-of-Character from Machiavel Chénier   (1 day, 1 hour ago)
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I disagree, it's a total surrender. The new Terran has nothing to do with the Old Republic, the federation status is illegitimate, and we would not lift a finger to help this new Terran if they asked it. We aren't trying to preserve them under a new banner.
Dominic

Out-of-Character from Rurik Clarke   (1 day, 1 hour ago)
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I will say again. You don't surrender to people who you are not fighting. Even though D'hara will need to "declare war" to take the last region, there is no conflict. It is prearranged and is a peaceful act. It is a merger.

No amount of rule lawyering will change that. And Tom's thoughts on rule lawyers should be well known and surrounded with lightning bolts.

Also, saying that D'hara would not lift a finger to help Terran is false. What do you think is happening? Offering political asylum is generally not considered a harmful act.
Dan Rhinehart

Out-of-Character from Machiavel Chénier   (1 day ago)
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Right, because there was a ton of bolts given when the Lurias merged.

Oh wait...

As a magistrate, I'm telling you that I would not expect this to warrant any sanctions. Far worse has been done with no punishment.

And we aren't granting them asylum, we are profiting of an opportunity to satisfy our own expansionist ambitions. This may not be the case for your character, but a bunch of southern characters hate the idea of a theocracy in 'moot lands, and equally hate the idea of a Kabrinski in power. The Chateau would make a perfect addition for the colony that was discussed.
Dominic

Out-of-Character from Rurik Clarke   (1 day ago)
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As a magistrate, I'm telling you that I would not expect this to warrant any sanctions. Far worse has been done with no punishment.

Implication: Because we won't get punished for not following this rule, we shouldn't follow the rule.
Dan Rhinehart

Out-of-Character from Machiavel Chénier   (1 day ago)
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If things are not worthy of sanction or reprimand, then they are not against the rules.

Your interpretation of the no realm-merger rule is not the same as the one made by the bodies entrusted with enforcing the said rule.

There is no equal-to-equal union here, which is what is prohibited. We aren't forming an Empire where Terran basically continues to exist. We are destroying it. If their ruler prefers being destroyed by D'Haran than Phantaria, than be it. It doesn't make it against the rules. And there's nothing to say we wouldn't have declared war on them anyways once they were down to their capital.
Dominic

Out-of-Character from Rurik Clarke   (1 day ago)
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To quote the interpretation of the Magistrates from the verdict of the Kabrinskia Realm Merger case:
Realm mergers as stated in the Rules and Policies does not, as originally envisioned, refer to a 'push button to join' another realm but through the welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm which is not allowed. Realm mergers are only allowed if all its regions are taken over through war. This would be the meaning of 'no friendly realm mergers allowed'. Also, previously, the last duchy (with the capital) could not join another realm. This was regulated through game mechanics.

It is currently through a bug that realm mergers with the last duchy containing the capital can join another realm by 'pushing a button'. Even so, any merger of an entire realm by its original conception whether it is by by pushing a button or through the friendly takeover of all its regions outside of a war is not allowed.
Your interpretation seems to be the one which is at odds with the body entrusted with enforcing said rule.
Dan Rhinehart

Out-of-Character from Machiavel Chénier   (1 day ago)
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No, it isn't. "All" includes the Chateau, which WOULD be taken through war. We aren't exploiting of a bug, like they did in Luria Nova, to do what we shouldn't be supposed to be able to do. The rule requires hostile action, which would be taken.
Dominic

Out-of-Character from Rurik Clarke   (23 hours, 52 minutes ago)
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Firstly;
Realm mergers as stated in the Rules and Policies does not, as originally envisioned, refer to a 'push button to join' another realm but through the welcome and friendly take over of all the regions of a realm which is not allowed.
 
Realm mergers are only allowed if all its regions are taken over through war.
Secondly, a "war" where the "enemy" willingly hands over all but their last holding and then invites us to come and get the last one because they want us to have it is not a war. This has all been prearranged and is therefor a peaceful merger.

The rule on realm mergers existed before the bug which allowed for the Lurian merger. Without the bug, a war to take the last region would always be required. Therefor, a peaceful realm merger, during the point that the rule was written, was written with the understanding that there would be a "war".
Dan Rhinehart

Out-of-Character from Gornak Gellander   (22 hours, 58 minutes ago)
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Let's cut the OOC chatter, which is ALSO discouraged on Dwilight.

If and when we take that final region, open case, Rurik. I have saved our message log from the past 2 days to provide as evidence.

So, I suggest we all drop it, and we can let the Magistrates argue about it when the time comes. No need for us to argue about it.
Eric Henson

End of conversation.

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Dwilight / Re: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation

« on: June 05, 2013, 08:29:59 AM »

Well, I'm not saying that the Elders would deny Phantaria membership into the 'moot. Personally, I think most want Phantaria in the 'moot.

What I'm saying is that the timing on Phantaria joining the 'moot now, rather than before the Duchy of the Lowlands came into question, could put that request to join under suspicion. Some might not see it as Phantaria wanting to join, but more of a "Well, if we have to..."

(For everyone's confusion, I had to change my display name mid conversation. But people seem to complain that I don't send enough messages so...Quiet One.

6

Dwilight / Re: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation

« on: June 05, 2013, 08:16:36 AM »

Everyone keeps avoiding the question Kale has asked like 10 times now: if the Diet votes to join the 'Moot will that solve the issue?

That really depends on the Elders at this point. If Phantaria had tried to join the 'moot before D'hara started taking over the lands of Saffalore, then most likely Phantaria would be the ones running the take overs and D'hara would be assisting them.

As it stands now, them joining the moot could easily be interpreted as Phantaria only joining the 'moot for the sole reason of getting the Duchy of the Lowlands rather than any real interest in taking the former place of the Republic of Terran.

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Helpline / Re: Error when checking Region

« on: October 07, 2011, 11:10:33 PM »

The bug appears to affect any page that uses information about the deleted knight/estate, so I'm unable to manage estates or assign knights to armies in Port Nebel.

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Helpline / Re: Error when checking Region

« on: October 07, 2011, 06:43:16 PM »

Right, sorry. Our refers to the realm of D'hara on Dwilight.

My thought was that since one estate in Port Nebel was not updating and showing that error message on every page that draws on estate information, it might also be preventing the calculations for that particular estate from producing a value. While I clearly have no idea how the code for the new estate system works, it did seem possible that one estate failing to produce a value could prevent the entire tax from running.

So in Port Nebel, instead of getting:
1+1+1=3
We're getting:
1+1+Error=Error
And that error gets fed into the Duchy and Realm calculations too. Or the code may simply stop when it hits that error. Like I said, this is just a wild guess.

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Helpline / Re: Error when checking Region

« on: October 07, 2011, 08:07:00 AM »

Any chance that this bug could affect tax calculations as well? Our last tax day was 8 days ago.

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Helpline / Re: Error when checking Region

« on: October 05, 2011, 07:37:02 PM »

Rurik is also unable to manage estates and assign knights to armies in Port Nebel.

I did have a knight deleted recently so that seems a likely cause.